Mapping questions
Gary Leighton
found mapping hard work. Actually making the map is ok, and sort of fun, but
using it to get from one side of the empire to another is painfull. My map
has the following form:
1. West of House
N-2, NE-2, SE-11...
2. North of House
...
A pretty graphical map is supplied with Masterpieces of Infocom, but I felt
it was cheating to use it. (Was the map included in the original boxed
game?)
My questions are:
Is there a better way to make a map?
Do players generally use mapping tools?
If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced a
graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations are
discovered?
Or, would it be better to simply have a navigation system that accepts
commands like GO TO KITCHEN, that works provided you've already discovered
the location and a simple path exists to get there?
Fredrik Ramsberg
[snip]
> My map
> has the following form:
>
> 1. West of House
> N-2, NE-2, SE-11...
> 2. North of House
> ...
>
[snip]
> My questions are:
>
> Is there a better way to make a map?
Yes.
Here's a common method:
http://hjem.get2net.dk/gunn/Maps/Colour_of_Magic_map.jpg
In particular, look at the named exits in the top left part of the map, like
sit/stand, trapdoor, out/in etc. It gives great flexibility in that.
Personally, I prefer a mix between your method and the one used in the
Jpeg image above. I write a number in each box, rather than the room name.
Then I write a list on the side with all the rooms, saying room number,
room name, which objects I've found in the room and other interesting features
that I will probably want to investigate further.
> Do players generally use mapping tools?
Yes. Pen and paper.
> If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced a
> graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations are
> discovered?
That'd spoil the fun of discovery. Then again, some games aren't about
discovery, so maybe it would be good for those games.
> Or, would it be better to simply have a navigation system that accepts
> commands like GO TO KITCHEN, that works provided you've already discovered
> the location and a simple path exists to get there?
It's a good idea, and some games have it. I don't think it makes a map
unnecessary, but it's definitely helpful. We included it in our game
Vacation Gone Awry, and have only received positive feedback on it. One
of our blind players was particulary happy, since he can't draw maps very
easily.
/Fredrik
Fred Jameson
Well, the way I've always mapped is to take a piece of paper, draw a
rectangle in the middle, write the the room name and any interesting
things about it inside, then when I move in some direction I draw a
new rectangle in an appropriate place and join them by a line (so if I
go north I draw the new rectangle directly above the old one and draw
a short vertical line between the two.
The problem with your method is it is not graphical and you get no
idea how the locations link together, so you can't easily plot a route
from one place to another. In fact some games are virtually impossible
unless you draw a graphical map as they rely on you noticing that two
locations are adjacent even though you can't move directly between
them.
> Do players generally use mapping tools?
If by mapping tools you mean pencil and paper, I'd say yes...
otherwise you'll have to wait for players generally to respond.
I don't use any other mapping tools myself
> If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced
> a graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations
> are discovered?
I believe a few may do so, but I don't think it is in general a
particularly good idea because of the problem of displaying a map on
the screen (that's not to say that it is never a good idea, in
particular circumstances it can be very useful). You can use fixed
pitch fonts and ascii art but the size of the screen is a very severe
limit on how much you can display, especially if you want it to work
on palmtops.
> Or, would it be better to simply have a navigation system that
> accepts commands like GO TO KITCHEN, that works provided
> you've already discovered the location and a simple path exists
> to get there?
Some games do this, and it would be nice if more did, as it is useful
for getting around large maps quickly, but overall I don't think a
better general navigation system has been found then compass
directions.
Freddy
Plugh!
> found mapping hard work. Actually making the map is ok, and sort of fun, but
> using it to get from one side of the empire to another is painfull. My map
> has the following form:
>
> 1. West of House
> N-2, NE-2, SE-11...
> 2. North of House
yeugh!!!!
> A pretty graphical map is supplied with Masterpieces of Infocom, but I felt
> it was cheating to use it.
But surely everyone draws such a thing as they go along? It never
occurred to me to do it any other way until now. Your way seems
destined to confuse (no offence intended).
> My questions are:
>
> Is there a better way to make a map?
See above?
> Do players generally use mapping tools?
Probably not. In fact, I wonder if mappers are not of more use to
authors than to players?
> If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced a
> graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations are
> discovered?
Well, I certainly think so, but of course, some purists might
disagree. As long as there was an ption to run it on/off, it should be
ok. See discussion at end.
> Or, would it be better to simply have a navigation system that accepts
> commands like GO TO KITCHEN, that works provided you've already discovered
> the location and a simple path exists to get there?
Such things already exist, in the form of library add-ins, for
authors. But not all use them.
> wouldn't it be better if the game produced a graphical map itself as new locations are discovered?
I personally find this very desirable (and have discussed it somewhat
in this group before). As I see it, there are two main approaches:
1) the author takes the trouble to put map drawing hooks into his
source and the interpreters are modified to display the maps (for
TADS, this should be reasonably straightforward in the HTML version. I
can't speak for Inform).
This has the disadvantage that if the suer decides not to do it, then
no map will be shown. Further, all legacy i-f would have to be
updated.
2) the author does nothing special and a more detailed hack is made to
the interpreter. This would involve detecting every movement verb and
updating the map appropriately. The big bonus is that no extra work is
needed to get every price of i-f ever written automapping.
The disadvantages are:
- with approach 1, the author can indicate coordinates at which to
show each room on the map. With approach 2, some fancy calculations
are required to decide the best position for each map entry.
- it's not just movement verbs like north, up, in which can change
location. Magic words can too. And so can certain actions "pull lever
- you pull the lever and the carpet under your feet begins to move.
You realize that it is a giant conveyor belt, as it whisks you out of
the room..."
I would welcome any discussion on this topic, with a view to
developing some tools.
Additional ideas, like an interpreter which allows the player to
annotate the automap as he progresses are also welcome.
Eric Forgeot
(http://www.voicenet.com/~mikeedmo/rezrov/), it seems to support
automapping. You need a perl interpreter to make it work (I didn't
managed to use it, I'll try on a linux system later, I'll be maybe
more successful)
>If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced a
>graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations are
>discovered?
For my game I've done an object displaying the map if you're reading
it. It's cheating in a way but I consider for example if you're in
your own house you know the location by heart. For new location I
don't know what to do yet. Maybe giving parts of a map, as if the
player had drawn it self.
>Or, would it be better to simply have a navigation system that
accepts
>commands like GO TO KITCHEN, that works provided you've already
discovered
>the location and a simple path exists to get there?
I'm also implementing something like that, but it's quite a pain to
program it, very long (maybe I don't know how to do it easily and
quickly).
For example (using Inform) I'm creating a new verb (GoKitchen for
example) for each location and have it in a class definition (in House
for example), so the player can type Go Kitchen if he/she's in the
house.
Sharon Brown
"Plugh!" <pl...@plugh.info> wrote in message
news:68bd0e8.02081...@posting.google.com...
> "Gary Leighton" <gary.l...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:<aj6mn1$24i$1...@venus.btinternet.com>...
> > I've just been playing my first text adventure in many years (Zork 1),
and
> > found mapping hard work. Actually making the map is ok, and sort of fun,
but
> > using it to get from one side of the empire to another is painfull. My
map
> > has the following form:
> >
> > 1. West of House
> > N-2, NE-2, SE-11...
> > 2. North of House
>
> yeugh!!!!
>
map-challenged, but I was never able to graphically map more than a few
rooms without finding I'd screwed up and already stuck a room in a location
where the NEW room I now needed to map should be.... Plus, I could never
come to terms with a decent mapping for UP and DOWN, for "special" locations
not dictated by compass directions, and for "long passages" between rooms
that were not adjacent in terms of a grid-based map--these *always* got
mapped where I would later find I needed to put another room. And I couldn't
get the hang of visualizing/mapping rooms with non-reciprocal directions of
movements (e.g., NE to go one way, S to return). I also got sick of pasting
on new pages as the map grew, especially because I invariably placed the
first room in an unfortunate spot--if I centered it, it turned out to be at
the edge of the overall map and if I played a hunch and placed it near an
edge of the starting page, it turned out to be the wrong edge.
For most people, drawing a graphical representation is probably better. (I'm
finally getting the hang of it after looking at some well-done maps and
making a start at writing a game of my own.) However, if you find that your
linear description works better for you, it's a good idea to highlight or
mark frequently-used routes or write out "directions" for moving between
certain key rooms. I also found that it helped to work on spreadsheet-type
paper and have a column for each of the ten possible directions. This way I
could be sure I had checked all possibilities, making it easier to locate
hidden exits.
Tarage
> I've just been playing my first text adventure in many years (Zork 1), and
> found mapping hard work. Actually making the map is ok, and sort of fun, but
> using it to get from one side of the empire to another is painfull. My map
> has the following form:
>
> 1. West of House
> N-2, NE-2, SE-11...
> 2. North of House
> ...
>
> A pretty graphical map is supplied with Masterpieces of Infocom, but I felt
> it was cheating to use it. (Was the map included in the original boxed
> game?)
>
> My questions are:
>
> Is there a better way to make a map?
> Do players generally use mapping tools?
Yup. Paper and pencil, so you can erase lines and rooms if they're too
small, too far apart, need more space, etc.
> If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced a
> graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations are
> discovered?
I dunno. I've seen the automapping in non-IF games like Hexen and while
occasionally useful, they're not as useful as they could be...because
their artsiness gets in the way of finding out where you are! So don't
do something like that. Heck, ASCII art would be fine, but it should be
an option, and not a default.
> Or, would it be better to simply have a navigation system that accepts
> commands like GO TO KITCHEN, that works provided you've already discovered
> the location and a simple path exists to get there?
Mmm. Yum. I like that idea lots.
~Tarage
Gary Leighton
> http://hjem.get2net.dk/gunn/Maps/Colour_of_Magic_map.jpg
>
> In particular, look at the named exits in the top left part of the map,
like
> sit/stand, trapdoor, out/in etc. It gives great flexibility in that.
>
> Personally, I prefer a mix between your method and the one used in the
> Jpeg image above. I write a number in each box, rather than the room name.
> Then I write a list on the side with all the rooms, saying room number,
> room name, which objects I've found in the room and other interesting
features
> that I will probably want to investigate further.
>
Yes, I like this approach. But it must mean quite a bit of rubbing out and
redrawing for illogical mazes etc. Or do most games tend to have logical
maps these days?
> > Do players generally use mapping tools?
>
> Yes. Pen and paper.
>
I was thinking more along the lines of another computer program that runs in
parallel with the game (on multi-tasking OS's), that allows you to type in
map location details and draws a graphical map. Are there any programs like
that?
> > If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced a
> > graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations are
> > discovered?
>
> That'd spoil the fun of discovery. Then again, some games aren't about
> discovery, so maybe it would be good for those games.
>
But if it only drew the rooms you had already discovered, then it wouldn't
spoil the fun of discovery would it?
Gary
Gary Leighton
> > a graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations
> > are discovered?
>
> I believe a few may do so, but I don't think it is in general a
> particularly good idea because of the problem of displaying a map on
> the screen (that's not to say that it is never a good idea, in
> particular circumstances it can be very useful). You can use fixed
> pitch fonts and ascii art but the size of the screen is a very severe
> limit on how much you can display, especially if you want it to work
> on palmtops.
>
I had it in mind to write a game for PCs. Hadn't really thought about small
devices like palmtops. Good point.
I suppose it raises another question... How popluar are text adventures on
devices with small screens? Do you think that most interactive fiction
players use PC's or Mac's etc?
> > Or, would it be better to simply have a navigation system that
> > accepts commands like GO TO KITCHEN, that works provided
> > you've already discovered the location and a simple path exists
> > to get there?
>
> Some games do this, and it would be nice if more did, as it is useful
> for getting around large maps quickly, but overall I don't think a
> better general navigation system has been found then compass
> directions.
>
I've always found the compass directions for navigation a bit weird. Sat
here, writing this email, I have no idea which way is north. I've never seen
a text adventure that provides the adventurer with a compass either. I'm
thinking that if a game produced its own graphical map, maybe it would
abolish the need for compass directions. For moving about you could just use
GO TO KITCHEN, and you would still get a sense of the position of locations
from the map. Too radical?
Gary
Gary Leighton
Thanks Sharon. I'm glad someone understands my mapping approach. I really
don't want to be drawing boxes and rubbing them out again every time I make
a mistake. I'm far too lazy.
Gary
Gary Leighton
> Probably not. In fact, I wonder if mappers are not of more use to
> authors than to players?
>
Is this simply because the (computerised) mapping tools are not very good?
Or is it just that people find it more fun to map by hand?
> > If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced a
> > graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations are
> > discovered?
> Well, I certainly think so, but of course, some purists might
> disagree. As long as there was an ption to run it on/off, it should be
> ok. See discussion at end.
>
So would you say that mapping is not an important component of interactive
fiction? My main worry about introducing an automatic mapper into a game
would be that it might actually be less fun because the player is deprived
of the joy of (manual) mapping!
Gary
Eytan Zweig
> > > If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced a
> > > graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations are
> > > discovered?
> > Well, I certainly think so, but of course, some purists might
> > disagree. As long as there was an ption to run it on/off, it should be
> > ok. See discussion at end.
> >
>
> So would you say that mapping is not an important component of interactive
> fiction? My main worry about introducing an automatic mapper into a game
> would be that it might actually be less fun because the player is deprived
> of the joy of (manual) mapping!
>
I'd say it depends on the game. If you're designing a game where exploration
is a major theme, then requiring mapping can very well be part of the
experience and an auto-mapper might ruin it a bit. If you're designing a
game in a place which is familiar to the PC, you might want to pre-include a
map. Anything in between (a location which isn't very familiar to the PC but
which he's not actively exploring) would probably work quite well with an
auto-map, IMO.
Eytan
> Gary
>
>
Garth Dighton
>> Here's a common method:
>> http://hjem.get2net.dk/gunn/Maps/Colour_of_Magic_map.jpg
>>
>> In particular, look at the named exits in the top left part of the
>> map,
> like
>> sit/stand, trapdoor, out/in etc. It gives great flexibility in that.
>>
>> Personally, I prefer a mix between your method and the one used in
>> the Jpeg image above. I write a number in each box, rather than the
>> room name. Then I write a list on the side with all the rooms, saying
>> room number, room name, which objects I've found in the room and
>> other interesting
> features
>> that I will probably want to investigate further.
>>
>
> Yes, I like this approach. But it must mean quite a bit of rubbing out
> and redrawing for illogical mazes etc. Or do most games tend to have
> logical maps these days?
Most games use logical maps -- mazes are considered Not Nice.
>
>> > Do players generally use mapping tools?
>>
>> Yes. Pen and paper.
>>
>
> I was thinking more along the lines of another computer program that
> runs in parallel with the game (on multi-tasking OS's), that allows
> you to type in map location details and draws a graphical map. Are
> there any programs like that?
There's one for windows, in the mapping section of the IF Archive -- I use
it more as an Author than as a player.
http://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archiveXmapping-tools.html
GUEMap is the one I use.
>
>> > If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced
>> > a graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations
>> > are discovered?
>>
>> That'd spoil the fun of discovery. Then again, some games aren't
>> about discovery, so maybe it would be good for those games.
>>
>
> But if it only drew the rooms you had already discovered, then it
> wouldn't spoil the fun of discovery would it?
>
Someone built an automapper for Ditch Day Drifter -- I personally thought
it was rather hideous. Basically, building a generic automapper is what we
call a "hard" problem -- very hard.
--
Garth Dighton
gdig...@yahoo.com
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Garth Dighton
>> > If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced
>> > a graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations
>> > are discovered?
>>
>> I believe a few may do so, but I don't think it is in general a
>> particularly good idea because of the problem of displaying a map on
>> the screen (that's not to say that it is never a good idea, in
>> particular circumstances it can be very useful). You can use fixed
>> pitch fonts and ascii art but the size of the screen is a very severe
>> limit on how much you can display, especially if you want it to work
>> on palmtops.
>>
>
> I had it in mind to write a game for PCs. Hadn't really thought about
> small devices like palmtops. Good point.
>
> I suppose it raises another question... How popluar are text
> adventures on devices with small screens? Do you think that most
> interactive fiction players use PC's or Mac's etc?
Quite popular on Palms, etc. Also popular on a wide variety of non-PC non-
Mac desktops -- we see lots of Linux, Acorn, Amiga, etc. users around here.
>
>> > Or, would it be better to simply have a navigation system that
>> > accepts commands like GO TO KITCHEN, that works provided
>> > you've already discovered the location and a simple path exists
>> > to get there?
>>
>> Some games do this, and it would be nice if more did, as it is useful
>> for getting around large maps quickly, but overall I don't think a
>> better general navigation system has been found then compass
>> directions.
>>
>
> I've always found the compass directions for navigation a bit weird.
> Sat here, writing this email, I have no idea which way is north. I've
> never seen a text adventure that provides the adventurer with a
> compass either. I'm thinking that if a game produced its own graphical
> map, maybe it would abolish the need for compass directions. For
> moving about you could just use GO TO KITCHEN, and you would still get
> a sense of the position of locations from the map. Too radical?
It seems a bit weird, perhaps, in that we often don't use these directions
in real life, but it works -- it gives the players a sense of how rooms are
spatially related to one another, _without_ using graphics. It doesn't
really matter that "north" is actually an arbitrary direction, as long as
it's consistent throughout the game.
Personally, I prefer to avoid using graphics in my games -- I'm simply not
an artist.
Adrien Beau
Gary Leighton wrote:
> I was thinking more along the lines of another computer
> program that runs in parallel with the game (on multi-tasking
> OS's), that allows you to type in map location details and
> draws a graphical map. Are there any programs like that?
I've used pen and paper for years, but have found that I always
had to redraw the map at some point because it was becoming too
cluttered.
Then, as I was playing more and more IF, I looked for a program
that would allow me to draw boxes and some text, and most
importantly, to move them around.
On Microsoft Windows, the program of choice seems to be
Microsoft Visio, but it is not free and far from cheap. Since I
prefer to use Linux anyway, I have settled my choice on Dia,
which is a similar program. While not on a par with Visio, it
works well enough for my mapping purposes. Notably, Dia has
almost no documentation, and lacks a - real-life - project
manager. Hopefully, the program is rather easy to use once you
accept to spend some time analyzing how it works, especially if
you know the Gimp. Hey, consider this task as a game! ;)
Homepage of Dia
http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/
Daily CVS snapshots of the source code
http://zamok.crans.org/~chepelov/dia/snapshots/
Here's a summary of how I work with Dia: I have assigned easy
shortcuts to the objects I use the most, namely B for box, T
for text, L for line, Z for bezier line and G for snap-to-grid.
I have assigned a default font and font size by double-clicking
on the tools buttons - this feature is not documented! I also
make heavy usage of cut and paste, the basic unit of my work
being a "box and text". This work procedure is not optimal yet.
There still is a lot of clicking to do.
These past few weeks, I have toyed with the idea of making
custom "IF" shapes for Dia. Right now, my maps only contain the
names of the rooms and the links between them. I think adding
some more notes such as important objects and NPCs might be a
good idea, but I also want to avoid cluttering the map too much.
Well, you might wonder how this looks like? I haven't done many
maps yet, having recently only played short or puzzleless IF,
but I'm quite proud of my Anchorhead map, which is the only
serious map I have done with Dia. I also have a 1893 map in the
early stages, and a Varicella map, which is the first map I
tried to draw with Dia.
Here are some notes on the Anchorhead map. By the way, go play
it now, or you'll be slightly SPOILED if you keep reading.
* Dashed-lines mean that there is a change of level. There is
no distinction between up and down, because I have not needed
it yet. This is where developing custom shapes for Dia, such
as small stylised up and down stairs, might be useful.
* Filled-triangle arrows mean that the path is unidirectional.
* Filled-boxes mean the path is bloqued. Of course, I used it a
lot while I was exploring the game, and few remain in the
final version.
* Simple arrows are used to unclutter the map or to mean some
sort of teleportation was involved. I have also used them for
the two mazes you can find in Anchorhead; they make the mazes
much easier to understand than my first baroque attempt.
* Bezier lines are great to represent changes of directions and
other twisty passages that cannot really be drawn using
straight lines. They allow you to have very clean curves, and
are simple to manipulate.
* Since Dia displays the pages boundaries on the diagram, it
was rather easy and very interesting to try to keep locations
within pages boundaries, without splitting a box between two
pages. It turns out however that the printed version has a
big problem: you have no indication about the relation
between the pages, which is rather puzzling. I never meant to
print the map, however, so I'm not too bothered.
Enough rambling, here are the links to the maps. Ha, no, still
a few more notes before that!
I have exported the map in three different formats, and have
also printed it as a PostScript file. The .eps file should be
readable on sufficiently advanced image editors. On Unix, you
can use Gv to view it, and it looks quite great! The .svg
format is rather new, but I know that a viewer is shipped with
Windows XP at least. Adobe offers a reader on their site, too,
but I've never used SVG before, so I can't be of much help.
Finally, the .png file is there for those who can't read the
afore-mentioned formats. Eog on Linux displays such a big image
just fine.
As I said above, the printed, .ps version is quite puzzling.
Here's the order in which to put the pages if you want to:
1
2 3
4 5 6
7 8
9 10 11
In case you haven't understood it yet, please note that
downloading any of these files is a MAJOR and DEFINITIVE
SPOILER! In Anchorhead words:
> *** You have become utterly spoiled ***
>
> In that game you scored 0 out of a possible 100 points; you
> are hopelessly spoiled from enjoying one of the greatest
> Lovecraftian games ever made.
However, note that pages 5 and 10 of the printed version are
the least spoily, if ever you feel an urge to have a look at
the map.
Please don't distribute these files all over the world yet. If
enough people step up and ask for it, I will make a more
permanent home for them. Right now, my web space is 91% full,
and such files will be among the first to be removed if I need
to reclaim some of it.
The links, finally:
http://boa13.free.fr/anchorhead.eps
http://boa13.free.fr/anchorhead.svg
http://boa13.free.fr/anchorhead.png
http://boa13.free.fr/anchorhead.ps
And for a funny conclusion, look at how I first drew one of the
maps in Anchorhead. Compare with the new version on page 11,
and enjoy. :)
http://boa13.free.fr/anchor-map.png
--
adrie...@yahoo.guess
Adrien Beau
> I've always found the compass directions for navigation a bit
> weird. Sat here, writing this email, I have no idea which way
> is north. I've never seen a text adventure that provides the
> adventurer with a compass either. I'm thinking that if a game
> produced its own graphical map, maybe it would abolish the
> need for compass directions. For moving about you could just
> use GO TO KITCHEN, and you would still get a sense of the
> position of locations from the map. Too radical?
You should play Photopia. In some parts you use mostly compass
directions, and in others, you are not allowed to. And yes, it
has a meaning in the game.
As for compass, I know that some Inform games offer them. Going
quickly through the Best of IF, it seems that Mother Loose and
Masquerade both contain one in the status bar.
I personnally never have been bothered by the use of compass
directions, even though I like their absence in Photopia. I
wonder if this would work as well in a big (in the sense of
size) game. It probably places more burden on the creator of
the game, who needs to produce more code in order to get rid of
the compass directions, so their disparition is quite unlikely.
--
adrie...@yahoo.guess
Adrien Beau
>> > Do players generally use mapping tools?
>> Probably not. In fact, I wonder if mappers are not of more
>> use to authors than to players?
>>
>
> Is this simply because the (computerised) mapping tools are
> not very good? Or is it just that people find it more fun to
> map by hand?
Drawing maps by hand is funny and efficient until you have to
redraw the map because it has become too cluttered. See my post
about Dia above.
However, pen and paper are still very useful to take quick
notes as you advance in the game. I find them much more
efficient than using an editor for this purpose.
> So would you say that mapping is not an important component of
> interactive fiction? My main worry about introducing an
> automatic mapper into a game would be that it might actually
> be less fun because the player is deprived of the joy of
> (manual) mapping!
I enjoy drawing maps, and I suspect a lot of people around here
like that, too. It all depends of the game, however.
As for mapping tools, I don't want an automatic tool: it would
spoil all my fun. A more efficient drawing tool, geared toward
making maps, would be great, though. I have not yet tried the
map editors that have been mentioned in this thread. What I
like about Dia is the freedom I have. There are always some
parts of a map which require special handling, and a too rigid
tool might choke on them.
--
adrie...@yahoo.guess
Plugh!
> > >
> > > 1. West of House
> > > N-2, NE-2, SE-11...
> > > 2. North of House
> >
> > yeugh!!!!
> >
> Actually, I have generally tended to use a similar system. I guess I'm just
> map-challenged, but I was never able to graphically map more than a few
> rooms without finding I'd screwed up and already stuck a room in a location
> where the NEW room I now needed to map should be....
shouldn't arise. I cut my teeth on Colossal cave and frequently did
have such problems. I resorted to the eraser until I realised that the
map couldn't be represented literally, then just stuck rooms whereever
they fit. It still seems easier to me than your method (no offense
intended).
> Plus, I could never
> come to terms with a decent mapping for UP and DOWN, for "special" locations
> not dictated by compass directions, and for "long passages" between rooms
> that were not adjacent in terms of a grid-based map--these *always* got
> mapped where I would later find I needed to put another room. And I couldn't
> get the hang of visualizing/mapping rooms with non-reciprocal directions of
> movements (e.g., NE to go one way, S to return).
Me too, I agree 100%. Unfortunately, I am trying to develop an
authoring aid system and lots of folk seem to think that I can somehow
automagically place their rooms for them, whereas I have insist that
they do so.
> I also got sick of pasting
> on new pages as the map grew, especially because I invariably placed the
> first room in an unfortunate spot--if I centered it, it turned out to be at
> the edge of the overall map and if I played a hunch and placed it near an
> edge of the starting page, it turned out to be the wrong edge.
Boy, do I know that feeling!
I have been wondering if I should offer a cut down version of my
program (see http://www.plugh.info) as a mapper but, as it stands, you
could use it as a mapper & just ignore the extra functionality & that
way I wouldn't have 2 programs to mainatin :-)
> For most people, drawing a graphical representation is probably better. (I'm
> finally getting the hang of it after looking at some well-done maps and
> making a start at writing a game of my own.)
In TADS? if so, please visit my page. Feedback is always very, very
welcome.
> However, if you find that your
> linear description works better for you, it's a good idea to highlight or
> mark frequently-used routes or write out "directions" for moving between
> certain key rooms. I also found that it helped to work on spreadsheet-type
> paper and have a column for each of the ten possible directions.
10 ? I count 8 compass directions, plus in/out plus up/down, plus
magic words, etc
> This way I
> could be sure I had checked all possibilities, making it easier to locate
> hidden exits.
Smart idea.
Do you see any use for mapper tools? for authors or players? whether
manual or automatic.
Plugh!
> > fiction? My main worry about introducing an automatic mapper into a game
> > would be that it might actually be less fun because the player is deprived
> > of the joy of (manual) mapping!
> >
>
> I'd say it depends on the game. If you're designing a game where exploration
> is a major theme, then requiring mapping can very well be part of the
> experience and an auto-mapper might ruin it a bit.
I must have missed the bit where interrupting the flow of play to
scrawl and repeatedly redraw a map on paper is fun,
So long as we're not revealing the whole map at the start, only piece
by piece as it is explored, I can't see how that spoils anything.
Especially if we allow an option to turn it off.
But, then again, one man's Mede is another man's Persian.
Plugh!
> redraw the map because it has become too cluttered. See my post
> about Dia above.
>
> However, pen and paper are still very useful to take quick
> notes as you advance in the game. I find them much more
> efficient than using an editor for this purpose.
comment?
> As for mapping tools, I don't want an automatic tool: it would
> spoil all my fun. A more efficient drawing tool, geared toward
> making maps, would be great, though. I have not yet tried the
> map editors that have been mentioned in this thread. What I
> like about Dia is the freedom I have. There are always some
> parts of a map which require special handling, and a too rigid
> tool might choke on them.
I would appreciate some comments on my approach (see
http://www.plugh.info). No, actually, I wouldn't - what I would
appreciate are some solutions :-) I already know that it's lacking in
certain areas, but that's all that anyone ever tells me. No-one ever
seems to have suggestions :-(
Plugh!
> program it, very long (maybe I don't know how to do it easily and
> quickly).
>
> For example (using Inform) I'm creating a new verb (GoKitchen for
> example) for each location and have it in a class definition (in House
> for example), so the player can type Go Kitchen if he/she's in the
> house.
I don't know Inform, but there is freely available TADS code to do
this. maybe you should look at it for ideas? Bear in mind that it's
not just a matter of checking passages, there may be some blockage,
like an NPC or a weight/bulk limit, or a door whcih locked after you
passed through.
Fredrik Ramsberg
> > Here's a common method:
> > http://hjem.get2net.dk/gunn/Maps/Colour_of_Magic_map.jpg
> >
> > In particular, look at the named exits in the top left part of the map,
> like
> > sit/stand, trapdoor, out/in etc. It gives great flexibility in that.
> >
> > Personally, I prefer a mix between your method and the one used in the
> > Jpeg image above. I write a number in each box, rather than the room name.
> > Then I write a list on the side with all the rooms, saying room number,
> > room name, which objects I've found in the room and other interesting
> features
> > that I will probably want to investigate further.
> >
>
> Yes, I like this approach. But it must mean quite a bit of rubbing out and
> redrawing for illogical mazes etc. Or do most games tend to have logical
> maps these days?
I think they usually have logical maps these days.
I don't spend much time rubbing out and redrawing when using this
technique. Since there's only a number in each square, redrawing one
or two squares doesn't take much time. If I suddenly find I need more
space in an area that's already surrounded by so many locations that it would
be a hassle to make room, I just draw an exit that ends in a circle, and put
a letter in that circle. I then draw the newly discovered locations in
another place on the paper, with a similar exit and a circle with the same
letter, to show how the different areas are connected.
> > > Do players generally use mapping tools?
> >
> > Yes. Pen and paper.
> >
>
> I was thinking more along the lines of another computer program that runs in
> parallel with the game (on multi-tasking OS's), that allows you to type in
> map location details and draws a graphical map. Are there any programs like
> that?
The only time I'd _really_ like to have such a mapping tool, would be on
the Palm, since I tend to play on my Palm primarily in situations where I
don't have pen and paper, or it's inconvenient to use them. Since the Palm
isn't doing much multitasking, a mapping utility would have to be integrated
with the terp to be useful. And once I've started playing and mapping on
my Palm, I'd like to be able to keep working on that map on my PC as well.
> > > If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced a
> > > graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations are
> > > discovered?
> >
> > That'd spoil the fun of discovery. Then again, some games aren't about
> > discovery, so maybe it would be good for those games.
> >
>
> But if it only drew the rooms you had already discovered, then it wouldn't
> spoil the fun of discovery would it?
Ok, you're right. It would spoil the fun of mapping.
To me, drawing a map of my new discoveries is fun. I realize this may not
be the case for everyone.
/Fredrik
Fred Jameson
>> accepts commands like GO TO KITCHEN, that works provided you've
>> already discovered the location and a simple path exists to get
>> there?
> I'm also implementing something like that, but it's quite a pain to
> program it, very long (maybe I don't know how to do it easily and
> quickly).
> For example (using Inform) I'm creating a new verb (GoKitchen for
> example) for each location and have it in a class definition (in House
> for example), so the player can type Go Kitchen if he/she's in the
> house.
I strongly recomend that you write a single GoLocation verb that works
for all the locations as making a new verb for each location is
tedious, escpecially if you have a lot of rooms, or decide to add one
or move one and forget to change the code. It isn't any more difficult
to write a general verb then specific ones. I did write some code to
do something like this once (it was for NPC's though).
Freddy
Fred Jameson
I don't think there is any point making any changes to the
interpreters (I'm talking about the Z-machine here) as they have no
idea where you are. The best option is to have a libary extension that
authors can use that has a map verb and some sort of location class to
enable the author to specify how to draw the map, along with a visited
flag for each room so it knows when to display them. For maximum
portbility it should use ascii art and be able to scroll the view so
machines with small screens can still use the mapping option.
Freddy
Richard Bos
> > Personally, I prefer a mix between your method and the one used in the
> > Jpeg image above. I write a number in each box, rather than the room name.
I prefer to use the name, as well as any useful objects, in the box
itself, because that means I can use the map to navigate at a glance
instead of having to consult a list as well.
>
> Yes, I like this approach. But it must mean quite a bit of rubbing out and
> redrawing for illogical mazes etc. Or do most games tend to have logical
> maps these days?
Yes, but even with illogical mazes this needn't be a problem.
To begin with, I never start by mapping the very first room I see. First
I take a look around, see how the game is laid out, whether I need a
large amount of space to the south and not a lot to the north, for
example, or whether I need to put the starting room in the centre of the
map. This means that you usually don't run off the paper after a dozen
rooms or so, and also that you can make a reasonable guess as to how the
final map is going to fit on the paper.
I continue in this way every few rooms, first checking how they're
situated, then drawing them in. If you don't do this, you can run into
situations where you need to cram a room between two others where you
didn't leave space. Rooms with contradictory exits are rarely a problem
as long as you plan a few rooms ahead.
If you run into a maze, you notice this pretty soon, as long as you do
scout ahead a few rooms. Several rooms with similar descriptions are
usually a nice tip-off <g>. When I do find a maze, I stop mapping and
start making a table, like this:
<Name of maze> | N | NE | E | SE ...
---------------+-----+-----+-----+-------
Starting room | 1 | - | 2 | 3
1 | - | - | 4 | Start
2 | 5 | - | 1 | -
:
:
Central room | - | - | 12 | -
Some mazes have a starting room leading into the maze, with a different
description (for example, the anteroom to Ballerina's mirror maze), and
if this has more than one connection I'll put it in the table as well;
and ditto for the usual central room with the treasure, or the exit room
to the other side, or what have you.
When this table is complete, I try to see if I can map the maze as well
(and quite often, this is possible), because a map is easier to read
than a table; but if not, I'll just put the name of the maze on the map
where the maze would be, more or less, and refer to the table when using
the map.
> > > Do players generally use mapping tools?
> >
> > Yes. Pen and paper.
>
> I was thinking more along the lines of another computer program that runs in
> parallel with the game
I'm not sure I'd like that. The process of mapping on paper is, for me,
an important part of trying to solve the game. It helps me get a feel
for the lay of the land that I suspect a computer program never could.
Richard
Andrew Plotkin
>> > So would you say that mapping is not an important component of interactive
>> > fiction? My main worry about introducing an automatic mapper into a game
>> > would be that it might actually be less fun because the player is deprived
>> > of the joy of (manual) mapping!
>> >
>>
>> I'd say it depends on the game. If you're designing a game where exploration
>> is a major theme, then requiring mapping can very well be part of the
>> experience and an auto-mapper might ruin it a bit.
> I must have missed the bit where interrupting the flow of play to
> scrawl and repeatedly redraw a map on paper is fun,
You say that as if you don't believe anybody could enjoy it.
I do enjoy it. I find switching to another program to do mapping
*very* annoying. An automatic in-game map is not intrusive, but I've
never seen one that displayed *enough* map for my tastes -- I like to
be able to look at huge swathes of the game, which is easy on paper,
but very hard if the map has to share screen space with the story.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Sharon Brown
just
> > map-challenged, but I was never able to graphically map more than a few
> > rooms without finding I'd screwed up and already stuck a room in a
location
> > where the NEW room I now needed to map should be....
> Hmmm,I understand modern i-f to be more literal, so such problems
> shouldn't arise. I cut my teeth on Colossal cave and frequently did
> have such problems.
haven't played many IF games since, until just the past couple of weeks
after the Inform site turned up in a search for something entirely
different. I've played with a few titles since then, and I agree that they
are probably much easier to map than the old style.
>
> I have been wondering if I should offer a cut down version of my
> program (see http://www.plugh.info) as a mapper but, as it stands, you
> could use it as a mapper & just ignore the extra functionality & that
> way I wouldn't have 2 programs to mainatin :-)
> > For most people, drawing a graphical representation is probably better.
(I'm
> > finally getting the hang of it after looking at some well-done maps and
> > making a start at writing a game of my own.)
> In TADS? if so, please visit my page. Feedback is always very, very
> welcome.
Sounds like it could be useful. Right now I'm working to learn Inform, since
I had already started something in it before I even noticed the existence of
TADS. If I ever get my initial game done before (a) losing interest or (b)
finding that my life has become too busy again to mess with it, I'll
probably look more closely at TADS and will certainly keep your utility in
mind.
> 10 ? I count 8 compass directions, plus in/out plus up/down, plus
> magic words, etc
Compass plus up/down. I also left extra space for notes on "special"
directions such as magic words. In the limited selection of games that I
played, in/out usually could be duplicated by a compass direction, or else
it applied to a secondary container object like the boat in Zork. If neither
applied, I probably just indicated it in my "special" section.
>
> Do you see any use for mapper tools? for authors or players? whether
> manual or automatic.
As a player, being able to access an automated map of where I've been is
nice, but not essential. It would depend on the complexity of the layout and
to a lesser degree on the intent/feel of the game. A dedicated manual
mapping utility that I could run on the side would be great if it is simple
and intuitive enough not to get in the way of my thought processes. I
wouldn't have the patience to use one that took much effort to learn.
As an author, a good dedicated mapping utility would be wonderful. I'd be
more willing to spend time learning how to use an interface for authoring
than I would for playing--with the added bonus that I could probably then
use it while playing as well. After quickly skimming the info on your site,
what you've already got for mapping would certainly be helpful. One odd
thought, probably most useful for mapping during play (and potentially far
more difficult to program than it's worth--but maybe not). I can envision a
complex map eventually developing a lot of criss-crossing passages because
rooms were not optimally placed initially. It would be very cool if an
automated "untangle" function could analyze the mess and neatly rearrange
the rooms to minimize crossing passages.
I'll download your demo and have a look at the parts that are useful to
non-TADS authors. Keep up the good work.
L. Ross Raszewski
<erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>I do enjoy it. I find switching to another program to do mapping
>*very* annoying. An automatic in-game map is not intrusive, but I've
>never seen one that displayed *enough* map for my tastes -- I like to
>be able to look at huge swathes of the game, which is easy on paper,
>but very hard if the map has to share screen space with the story.
>
I think I'll just sit over here and cry now.
(For what it's worth, I wrote the auto-mapper in Moments out of Time
having *never* drawn a map to play a piece of IF.)
Kevin Harrelson
> it more as an Author than as a player.
>
> http://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archiveXmapping-tools.html
>
> GUEMap is the one I use.
It is really quite a shame. I examined GUEMap, and it is rather good.
It is, however, not perfect.
The real problem is that it is shareware, and requires spending $10 on
it. This itself is not a problem, but the author is creating a new
version. Here are your options....
1) Buy the old version for $10, and re-buy for another $10 when the
next version arrives.
2) Wait for the next version.
3) Spend $30 to get a lifetime upgrade.
All of these are fine options, EXCEPT -- the author seems to have
dropped off of the face of the earth. His e-mail gets bounced back
(apparently his mailbox is over quota), and his web site has not been
updated is over 1-1/2 years.
I dislike option 1 because the new version is already in beta and
SHOULD be coming soon.
Option 2 may never happen.
Option 3 may be a waste of $20 over option 1 because the new version
may never be released.
Does anybody know what the status of this program (and the author) is?
Garth Dighton
news:9af8646.02081...@posting.google.com:
I paid the $10 fee about six months ago, when the "beta" release was in the
same state it is now. I honestly don't expect the author to ever finish the
next version, so I just bought the current one. It's been worth the money
(actually, I probably would have gone as high as $20-25 for it.)
At that time, his email worked fine, and I received my key fairly quickly.
I don't know what his current status is, though.
David Welbourn
For many games, I don't bother mapping, because they're usually too small.
I'll scribble down notes that show my progress like:
commands, instructions, info
[Location 1] doorstep E, road W, magic sack, mailbx. sack {ring, ruby, jar}
i {sword, candy, pear, lantern}
x sack (tag) x tag (no refunds)
...
W -> [Location 2] acorn, N to Location 3, rd W & E, corn
N -> [Location 3] baby in bassinet, children
...etc.
and make a map if necessary later.
When I do make a map, I tend to draw boxes on paper, write the name of the
room in the box and draw the eight compass directions from the appropriate
sides and corners. I always use pen. I'll scribble out mistakes if
necessary. For up and down, I label the connection with circled U and
circled D. If, for some reason there's no room for that, I'll add a filled
circle at the ends of the connections instead. Can't go directions are
marked explicitly with an X. Directions that return me to the location are
marked with a curved one-way arrow that points back at the room's box. Other
directions like "in" or "out", etc., I label with the required command. If
multiple rooms share a name, I'll add a bracketed word under the room's name
to help distinquish the location. If a room is described as round or
octagonal, I usually draw a circle or octagon instead of the usual
rectangle. Windows in rooms are marked with (w) in the appropriate side of
the box frame. Doors are marked with a short cross bar through the
connection line. What objects I find in the room tend not to make it onto
the map; my running notes are used for that.
Some games require extra detailing. For Appallatron, which is a maddening
maze to map, I used four caret symbols (<^v>) around a room's number to
indicate whether the four special directions were available from a room, and
periods if those directions were *not* possible. For 1893, I indicated water
edges to rooms with a wavy water symbol instead of my usual X, and put )(
around connections that were bridges. Pseudo locations (ie: visitable
locations that have no room object), such as the State Buildings, were
marked with returning one-way arrows, but labelled with which building it
was. For especially large games like 1893, I ended up making several partial
maps; it was unavoidable.
When I do hit a maze, I tend to draw a series of numbered boxes, with
distinguishing dropped object in brackets under the number. Then, instead of
drawing connections, I mark the sides and corners of the boxes with the
destination room number (or X if none, or returning arrow if same room).
Hope some of this helps,
-- David Welbourn
Plugh!
> > In TADS? if so, please visit my page. Feedback is always very, very
> > welcome.
>
> Sounds like it could be useful. Right now I'm working to learn Inform,
code, which it will "real soon now". Download it & play with it, or
even just look at the screen shots at
http://www.plugh.info/screen_shots.html and tell me if that looks
like what you would want from such a tool. If not, please tell me what
you would like. Don't wait until you actually need it, check it out
now and I can get started on any alterations and have it ready when
you need it.
> If I ever get my initial game done before (a) losing interest or (b)
> finding that my life has become too busy again to mess with it, I'll
> probably look more closely at TADS and will certainly keep your utility in
> mind.
You could still use it, just to help you draw (and redraw and
redraw...) your map and place your items & NPCs. You can annotate the
map with comments regarding puzzles, etc everything, for the moments,
but generate Inform code.
> > Do you see any use for mapper tools? for authors or players? whether
> > manual or automatic.
>
> As a player, being able to access an automated map of where I've been is
> nice, but not essential. It would depend on the complexity of the layout and
> to a lesser degree on the intent/feel of the game. A dedicated manual
> mapping utility that I could run on the side would be great if it is simple
> and intuitive enough not to get in the way of my thought processes. I
> wouldn't have the patience to use one that took much effort to learn.
Well, you could use mine that way now. I am interested to hear you
say that you would use a manual mapper. I imagined that most folk
would have preferred an automatic one. Go ahead, use my program to
map - you can even add comments to the map ("need blue key here", etc)
> As an author, a good dedicated mapping utility would be wonderful. I'd be
> more willing to spend time learning how to use an interface for authoring
> than I would for playing
Yes, I agree with that. Once you have a mapper, it's easy enough to
have it generate code. The problem occurs when the user edits that
code, then wants to use your program to change the map. There are 2
approaches to this: 1) make the user use your program for everything,
which is what I do in v1.0 or, 2) give your program the ability to
parse Inform/TADS files, even those whish it did not generate. I will
work on this next, but it is not so straightforward as simply parsing.
> After quickly skimming the info on your site,
> what you've already got for mapping would certainly be helpful.
Ah, you did look. Thanks. I would be very grateful for any feedback or
suggestions.
> One odd
> thought, probably most useful for mapping during play (and potentially far
> more difficult to program than it's worth--but maybe not). I can envision a
> complex map eventually developing a lot of criss-crossing passages because
> rooms were not optimally placed initially. It would be very cool if an
> automated "untangle" function could analyze the mess and neatly rearrange
> the rooms to minimize crossing passages.
Not so odd. This sort of ties in with "snap to grid" and
"automatically place room, relative to others, according to direction"
- at least, it's in the same school of functionality. I'll add it to
the wish list but, for the time being it's manual only, I'm afraid.
> I'll download your demo and have a look at the parts that are useful to
> non-TADS authors. Keep up the good work.
Thank you very much. Persevere with your i-f writing. it doesn't have
to be finished this month, or een this year. You can think about plot,
text & puzzles in idle moments while stuck in traffic or dentist's
offices and take the code out & polish it every now & then. There is
no deadline, so no excuse for abandoning it, although slowing
producing is fine.
Plugh!
> > scrawl and repeatedly redraw a map on paper is fun,
>
> You say that as if you don't believe anybody could enjoy it.
program :-)
Truth be told, I enjoy mapping myself. there can often be a minor
sense of triumph in drawing a new room after solving a puzzle, which
would probably missing if auto-mapped. I also agree with your next
point, as I like a good overview. When stuck, I will often look at my
reams of paper, waiting for inspiration to strike.
> I do enjoy it. I find switching to another program to do mapping
> *very* annoying. An automatic in-game map is not intrusive, but I've
> never seen one that displayed *enough* map for my tastes -- I like to
> be able to look at huge swathes of the game, which is easy on paper,
> but very hard if the map has to share screen space with the story.
A bigger screen? there probably isn't one big enough. Then again, I
tend to use A4, so have to switch between paper 'screens' anyway. What
about a zoom in/out facility? I see that you don't mention the ability
to annotate the map. I think this is a must in a mapper, whether
automap or manual.
Hmmm, that question alone is good enough for a separate topic...
Plugh!
> having *never* drawn a map to play a piece of IF.)
Sorry to admit to not having heard of your masterwork. Can you post a
URL so that I can correct this oversight? Thanks.
Plugh!
> interpreters (I'm talking about the Z-machine here) as they have no
> idea where you are.
difficult.
> The best option is to have a libary extension that
> authors can use that has a map verb and some sort of location class to
> enable the author to specify how to draw the map, along with a visited
> flag for each room so it knows when to display them. For maximum
> portbility it should use ascii art and be able to scroll the view so
> machines with small screens can still use the mapping option.
yes, you've hit on the second alternative. The big question is
whether authors will go to the extra trouble? If not, then an
interpreter which can do it is the solution - and it gives us
auto-mmapping for every game ever written for free, with no need to
re-write them.
(just imagine how useful that would have been with Amissville :-)
Plugh!
>
> small, too far apart, need more space, etc.
So, you're saying that if we adopted the approach that the i-f author
has to include special properties for each room to say where tehy are
on the map (let's say x-y coords), these should only be defaults & the
player should still be able to drag them around? Soudn good.
> > If designing a new game, wouldn't it be better if the game produced a
> > graphical map itself (maybe a simple plan view) as new locations are
> > discovered?
>
> I dunno. I've seen the automapping in non-IF games like Hexen and while
> occasionally useful, they're not as useful as they could be...because
> their artsiness gets in the way of finding out where you are! So don't
> do something like that.
I certianly didn't intend to (dunno about anyone else). All that I
planned were boxes & arrows (maybe one step above ascii, but that
depends on each port of the interpreter, so long as teh code is
modularized, that should be no problem)
> Heck, ASCII art would be fine, but it should be
> an option, and not a default.
Agreed.
Roger Firth
news:68bd0e8.02081...@posting.google.com...
Erm, why don't you look for it yourself?
Ross' home page? http://justice.loyola.edu/~lraszews/if/
Baf's Guide? http://www.wurb.com/if/game/1673
The Archive?
http://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archiveXgamesXcompetition2001Xinform.htm
l
Thirty seconds of basic research; not all that difficult really.
Cheers, Roger
--
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
You'll find my Cloak of Darkness, Parsifal, Informary
and more at http://www.firthworks.com/roger/
Plugh!
> "Plugh!" <pl...@plugh.info> wrote in message
> news:68bd0e8.02081...@posting.google.com...
> > > (For what it's worth, I wrote the auto-mapper in Moments out of Time
> > > having *never* drawn a map to play a piece of IF.)
> >
> > Sorry to admit to not having heard of your masterwork. Can you post a
> > URL so that I can correct this oversight? Thanks.
>
> Erm, why don't you look for it yourself?
> Baf's Guide? http://www.wurb.com/if/game/1673
I am acquainted with it, but not intimately. Wouldn't have
instinctively thought to turn there.
> The Archive?
> http://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archiveXgamesXcompetition2001Xinform.htm
> l
The archive is sorted by language & I don't know if it's written TADS,
Hugo or Urdu. The searchable arch vie at
http://bang.dhs.org/if/if-archive-search.html seems to be a broken
link.
> Thirty seconds of basic research; not all that difficult really.
Actually, Google hits on it straight away. But I wasn't wanting me to
know - I was wanting Ross to publicize it again by posting a URL here
so that lots of people could know.
> Cheers, Roger
Thanks for the help, though.
best wishes,
Plugh
L. Ross Raszewski
Sure. Stroll on down to an IF-archive near you:
http://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/
if-archiveXgamesXcompetition2001XinformXmoments.html