Selling IF: A Genuine Plan.
Ivan Cockrum
A lot of discussion has been going on lately about selling IF over the
internet. And there's been a lot of historical discussion about getting
IF back on store shelves in one form or another. Well, I have a business
contact who may be able to help make all of this possible, if we're
willing to work with him.
Chris runs Optical Data Resources, a CD-ROM replication shop that is a
subset of a larger conglomerate of media replication and fulfillment
companies, which includes Premiere America (www.premiereamerica.com) and
Paragon Media (www.paragongroup.com). (Ignore how ugly and dysfunctional
these websites are. In fact, I'm in the process of redesigning the
Premiere America site, as well as creating a new site for ODR.)
He can offer full access to everything we need. For online purchasing:
secure server, credit card processing (look here:
http://home.paragongroup.com/fulfillment_2.html#internet_capture), 24-hour
call center, fulfillment processing, etc. For physical publication:
CD-ROM and floppy replication, ties to nationwide (US, that is - I don't
know about international) distributors, relations with print shops.
Though he has access to all of this, he and his people are not content
developers. They sell media, and some content developed by other people.
Now, Chris's CD-ROM shop is a very small part of the overall conglomerate,
but he wants to take advantage of all these services he has access to by
partnering with some content developers. Chris is a big game fan. He's
done replication jobs for Sierra and Microsoft, plays all the latest
games. I've shown him some IF, and while I don't think he'd really played
any before, I think he appreciates that it has the potential to find an
audience if marketed correctly.
So, basically, here's the proposition. If we can get something ready for
market, Chris can replicate the media, get the printing done for manuals &
such, supply the back end for a web site (we can do our own front end and
domain name), and try to push it to his distribution contacts. All of
this means no cost on the developer's part to create a professional
package.
The catch? Well, he's probably going to want around 50% of the gross.
That's a rough figure and subject to negotiation - Chris is a good guy -
but that's business. He wants to make a profit. But remember - this is
50% of gross on an actual, physical product.
Now, my personal feeling is that no one single game (Avalon excepting) is
going to justify all of this muscle. There's just not going to be enough
return on investment. However, if a bunch of us can put together a
serious unified venture - a kooky little thing called TextFire springs to
mind - and create, say, 5 - 10 new, full sized games, then I believe that
might justify the effort of producing and marketing a CD-ROM.
Alternately, I think a smaller number of text/graphic games done with
HyperTads or Blorb would do.
I do also want to work something out where we can sell games directly
through the website for a reasonable percentage of the gross - after all,
no media, no production costs.
So this is it. Here's your chance to put your money where your mouth is.
By myself, I have little to offer Chris. As a team, perhaps we can live
the dream of reviving commercial IF. Let's start with some open
discussion. Once we determine if anyone here is interested, I recommend
we try to have some organized meetings on ifMUD.
-- Ivan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ivan Cockrum www.cockrumville.com iv...@NOSPAMcockrumville.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To reply by email, remove "NOSPAM" from the address above.
IF
Ivan Cockrum wrote:
While it's not entierly new, I'm currently in production of a H-TADS
version of Babel, complete with sound and graphics that should be ready in
about six months. I would be more than happy to give this game for use on the
CD, and, for my part, would not ask any reimbursment, so my share of whatever
profits are made could go directly to Chris, which would let everyone else
have a slightly larger slice. Also, any further games I do would also be up
for grabs. Let me know if anything comes of it.
Ian Finley
Mark J Musante
Ivan Cockrum (iv...@NOSPAMcockrumville.com) wrote:
> A lot of discussion has been going on lately about selling IF over the
> internet. And there's been a lot of historical discussion about getting
> IF back on store shelves in one form or another. Well, I have a business
> contact who may be able to help make all of this possible, if we're
> willing to work with him.
If I may so bold, I'd like to suggest that this might be one of those
ideas Whose Time Has Come.
First David "Jarbigruen" Cornelson, then Mike Berlyn, and now you.
I would love to be able to make a living at writing IF, but I really
don't see the market for it.
-=- Mark -=-
Ivan Cockrum
In article <Es1FK...@world.std.com>, olo...@world.std.com (Mark J
Musante) wrote:
> First David "Jarbigruen" Cornelson, then Mike Berlyn, and now you.
> I would love to be able to make a living at writing IF, but I really
> don't see the market for it.
The big trick is to MAKE the market. Like Mike Berlyn says, you gotta go
after 'niche markets,' and tailor your product specifically to those
groups.
Phil Goetz
In article <35436175...@ix.netcom.com>,
IF <mord...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
> While it's not entierly new, I'm currently in production of a H-TADS
>version of Babel, complete with sound and graphics that should be ready in
>about six months. I would be more than happy to give this game for use on the
>CD, and, for my part, would not ask any reimbursment, so my share of whatever
>profits are made could go directly to Chris, which would let everyone else
>have a slightly larger slice. Also, any further games I do would also be up
>for grabs. Let me know if anything comes of it.
>
>Ian Finley
>
This is a generous offer, but if we want to become commercial authors
I think giving your work away free is not a good way to start.
It makes it harder for other authors to strike good deals.
What happened to the IF CD that was compiled over a year ago,
with games from rec.arts.int-fiction,
and was supposed to be out for Christmas '97?
Phil Go...@zoesis.com
Mark J Musante
Phil Goetz (go...@cs.buffalo.edu) wrote:
> What happened to the IF CD that was compiled over a year ago,
> with games from rec.arts.int-fiction,
> and was supposed to be out for Christmas '97?
http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=295226724
-=- Mark -=-
Neil Brown
Wouldn't this have been quicker and easier in English? :-)
To address the original question, if you mean the CD I think you mean,
then the project was abandoned, for various reasons.
- NJB
George Caswell
On 27 Apr 1998, Phil Goetz wrote:
> In article <35436175...@ix.netcom.com>,
> IF <mord...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > While it's not entierly new, I'm currently in production of a H-TADS
> >version of Babel, complete with sound and graphics that should be ready in
> >about six months. I would be more than happy to give this game for use on the
> >CD, and, for my part, would not ask any reimbursment, so my share of whatever
> >profits are made could go directly to Chris, which would let everyone else
> >have a slightly larger slice. Also, any further games I do would also be up
> >for grabs. Let me know if anything comes of it.
> >
> >Ian Finley
> >
>
> This is a generous offer, but if we want to become commercial authors
> I think giving your work away free is not a good way to start.
> It makes it harder for other authors to strike good deals.
>
I think the small army of shareware authors would disagree with that.
So do I, for that matter. Releasing a game for free means people are more
likely to play it-- and hence more likely to say "Hey, that was cool, where
can I get more??"... (And particularly if you're willing to make the game
free in a broader sense as free software... although I can understand why
people would be reluctant to do so, if they don't want people tampering with
their stories.)
And anyway, I think he was saying that he'd contribute it to the CD
project, to be sold on the CD without him getting money, which would mean that
there'd be more project money left at the end to either split among
contributing authors or whatever....
> What happened to the IF CD that was compiled over a year ago,
> with games from rec.arts.int-fiction,
> and was supposed to be out for Christmas '97?
>
Oh, right, Infocom Masterpieces. :)
________________________________________________
______________ _/> ____ | George Caswell: WPI CS'99. Member of SOMA team |
<___ _________// _/<_ / | LnL Projectionist-in-action! Linux+PC hobbyist.|
// <> ___ < > / _/ | "Cue!" -HP "Did you just say 'cue!'??" -CC |
// /> / / _/ / / <____ | "Yes I did..." -HP "Shit!" -CC |
// </ <<</ < _/ <______/ |_For more info see http://www.wpi.edu/~timbuktu_|
</ </
PGP 2.6.2 public key print D9 88 A0 53 DC 7E 66 F1 B7 44 D1 7E 48 95 D8 E0
Andrew Plotkin
Phil Goetz (go...@cs.buffalo.edu) wrote:
> In article <35436175...@ix.netcom.com>,
> IF <mord...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > While it's not entierly new, I'm currently in production of a H-TADS
> >version of Babel, complete with sound and graphics that should be ready in
> >about six months. I would be more than happy to give this game for use on the
> >CD, and, for my part, would not ask any reimbursment, so my share of whatever
> >profits are made could go directly to Chris, which would let everyone else
> >have a slightly larger slice. Also, any further games I do would also be up
> >for grabs. Let me know if anything comes of it.
> This is a generous offer, but if we want to become commercial authors
> I think giving your work away free is not a good way to start.
> It makes it harder for other authors to strike good deals.
Hm. I've also heard the opposite argument -- that if there's a channel for
people to sell IF, it will reduce the amount of good free IF, because
all the authors will be tempted by filthy lucre and go commercial!
I think both of these arguments are -- not false, because both factors
will occur to some extent -- but unimportant. Neither is a reason to hold
back from either commercial IF ventures or free ones. It will always be
possible to write freeware IF; it will always be possible to charge money
for IF, at least by shareware. Neither form will destroy the other.
> What happened to the IF CD that was compiled over a year ago,
> with games from rec.arts.int-fiction,
> and was supposed to be out for Christmas '97?
I was in charge. I failed to pull it together. It did not happen. I could
have pretended to believe I would get back to it someday, but it would
have been silly, so I declared it dead.
Ivan has been (of his own initiative) considering restarting the project;
that's what he's been talking about. He has my big pile of unfinished
files. But it's his problem now, not mine. :)
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
George Caswell
On 28 Apr 1998, Erik Hetzner wrote:
> On the other hand, I envision small packages, probably the size of books-on-
> tape or video casettes, perhaps a flap that opens on the front, cover art,
> back blurbs from reviewers and quotes from the game (not screenshots, because
> for the most part, who cares?). I envision a small 3" CD inside, containing
> interpreters for many platforms, the game file. From the beginning, we ought
> to create an atmosphere for /each/ game, whatever it is. On the inside, we
> could have whatever sorts of introductory material we want -- manuals,
> pictures, art, etc. Plus information about running the game for each platform.
>
(Should keep in mind that not every CD drive can use 3 inch CDs. CD
changers come to mind.)
> In short, think: Infocom = hardcover book. This = paperback book + small label
> punk band, art appeal, independent.
>
> Price = $10 or less. I don't know how feasible this is, but it allows for:
> $2 cd duping.
> $8 packaging.
>
If you can produce in bulk (silver cd's vs. gold) the copying price will be
much less. (I assume you mean $2 per CD as the going price for CD-R's)
> I like the idea of commercially publishing IF, at least some of it. I just
> think that, although it's cool to have Internet distribution, cover art,
> blurbs, and packaging all make for games that can be more fun.
>
It should be noted, this can be done already, electronically- You could
include graphics and documents with your game file. This just isn't done much
tho.. (All right, all right, in fact people don't read from a screen as well
as they do from paper, but...)
Erik Hetzner
Ivan Cockrum (iv...@NOSPAMcockrumville.com) wrote:
: Now, my personal feeling is that no one single game (Avalon excepting) is
: going to justify all of this muscle. There's just not going to be enough
: return on investment. However, if a bunch of us can put together a
: serious unified venture - a kooky little thing called TextFire springs to
: mind - and create, say, 5 - 10 new, full sized games, then I believe that
: might justify the effort of producing and marketing a CD-ROM.
: Alternately, I think a smaller number of text/graphic games done with
: HyperTads or Blorb would do.
Hmm. My own two cents regarding this passage and the rest.
First, I disagree (at least at this point) with this statement, because I
believe that commercial IF will be best produced in single game packages,
that are cheap to buy, small for shipping. Like, as somebody said before,
a paperback book. When games are packaged in large bunches, I think you'll
find, that it looks like something whose time has passed. A large bunch
of games from a bygone era, of interest only to people who experienced that
era.
On the other hand, I envision small packages, probably the size of books-on-
tape or video casettes, perhaps a flap that opens on the front, cover art,
back blurbs from reviewers and quotes from the game (not screenshots, because
for the most part, who cares?). I envision a small 3" CD inside, containing
interpreters for many platforms, the game file. From the beginning, we ought
to create an atmosphere for /each/ game, whatever it is. On the inside, we
could have whatever sorts of introductory material we want -- manuals,
pictures, art, etc. Plus information about running the game for each platform.
In short, think: Infocom = hardcover book. This = paperback book + small label
punk band, art appeal, independent.
Price = $10 or less. I don't know how feasible this is, but it allows for:
$2 cd duping.
$8 packaging.
We can worry about profit later, IMO. Because the thrill of seeing your game
for sale on a web site, or for sale on the shelves of your local independent
bookstore, would be incredible.
Organization: an outside company handles distribution, and among us loose
co-operative, some sort of worker co-operative publisher, that accepts and
rejects projects, makes cover art, whatever. Hmm. Or something like that. :)
I like the idea of commercially publishing IF, at least some of it. I just
think that, although it's cool to have Internet distribution, cover art,
blurbs, and packaging all make for games that can be more fun.
---- Erik Hetzner ---- I'm celebrating my love for you
er...@cafe.berkeley.edu With a pint of beer and a new tattoo.
Jason Compton
All of this talk is very nice but the only person who has mentioned buying
the CU Amiga IF-laden CD is an Amiga user who would have bought it anyway.
It's out. Has been out for two weeks now. The jewel case has a very nice
big IF logo on the back sleeve. (I have also had exactly one letter from
an American whose local Borders and Barnes and Noble deny knowledge of the
magazine--not surprising, but also not true since some stores in the
chains do carry them)
Now, I don't want to make too sweeping of a generalization, but if the
hardcore IF community hasn't exactly fallen over itself to buy a CD with
40+ megs of IF stuff on it, what hope is there for any sort of attempt to
make money off of a dedicated product of lesser scope?
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Editor-in-Chief, Amiga Report Magazine VP, Legacy Maker Inc.
http://www.cucug.org/ar/ http://www.xnet.com/~jcompton/
Choose and renounce... throwing chains to the floor.
Andrew Plotkin
Jason Compton (jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com) wrote:
> All of this talk is very nice but the only person who has mentioned buying
> the CU Amiga IF-laden CD is an Amiga user who would have bought it anyway.
> It's out. Has been out for two weeks now. The jewel case has a very nice
> big IF logo on the back sleeve. (I have also had exactly one letter from
> an American whose local Borders and Barnes and Noble deny knowledge of the
> magazine--not surprising, but also not true since some stores in the
> chains do carry them)
I went into my local Borders on April 22, and I saw the April issue of CU
Amiga.
So I decided to go back around May 22 -- well, probably starting on the
15th -- and look for the May issue then.
We're talking about the May issue, right? That's what I was told on
IFMUD. The issue I looked at didn't seem to have any IF articles.
Den of Iniquity
On 27 Apr 1998, Phil Goetz wrote:
>>I... for my part, would not ask any reimbursment, so my share of
>>whatever profits are made could go directly to Chris, which would let
>>everyone else have a slightly larger slice. Also, any further games I
>>do would also be up for grabs. Let me know if anything comes of it.
> This is a generous offer, but if we want to become commercial authors
> I think giving your work away free is not a good way to start.
> It makes it harder for other authors to strike good deals.
I wouldn't be quite so negative but I would warn Ian that even though he
isn't profiting, if people buy the CD and write to the author about the
game, they're going to expect to be treated like paying customers, like it
or not. Especially if they have any complaints to make (not that anyone
should, but strange things happen to people when they part with money and
find that they're not entirely satisfied).
Also, I imagine that most people would find a small income far more
encouraging in writing future projects than a few letters of praise. Or
maybe that's just me. :)
--
Den
Den of Iniquity
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, George Caswell wrote:
>On 28 Apr 1998, Erik Hetzner wrote:
>> I envision a small 3" CD inside, containing interpreters for many
>> platforms, the game file.
> (Should keep in mind that not every CD drive can use 3 inch CDs. CD
>changers come to mind.)
Also, I'd wager the small CD's are more expensive than traditional ones.
Someone will now doubtless prove me wrong with some research they just
happened to do on the subject a couple of weeks ago.
--
Den
Den of Iniquity
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Andrew Plotkin wrote:
>Jason Compton (jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com) wrote:
>> All of this talk is very nice but the only person who has mentioned buying
>> the CU Amiga IF-laden CD is an Amiga user who would have bought it anyway.
Fame! [An Amiga user who subscribes to the mag and wrote them some email
pressing them to include that article on i-f a few months ago, I should
add. :) ]
>We're talking about the May issue, right? That's what I was told on
>IFMUD. The issue I looked at didn't seem to have any IF articles.
Yah. May issue it is; it's customary for magazines to come out in the
month before the one they are supposedly destined for, presumably because
they review products that are due for release in the aforementioned month.
I think one Mac magazine over here once got to two months ahead.
In the UK, The May issue of CU-Amiga hit the subscribers around the 8th
April, hit the shelves around the 14th. I presume that, as a regular
article writer, Jason gets a subscription mag, and he got his last
weekend, so it might hit the North American shelves sometime over the next
few days if it hasn't yet arrived.
The front cover had an orange logo and for some reason depicts a
snow-boarder or some other energetic 'extreme sports' person, no doubt
something vaguely to do with the digital camera feature. Logic ain't a
strong point in such matters.
--
Den
Chris Marriott
Jason Compton wrote in message <6i3jpv$knu$1...@flood.xnet.com>...
>Now, I don't want to make too sweeping of a generalization, but if the
>hardcore IF community hasn't exactly fallen over itself to buy a CD with
>40+ megs of IF stuff on it, what hope is there for any sort of attempt to
>make money off of a dedicated product of lesser scope?
The "hard core IF community" knows about, and has easy access to, the gmd IF
archive and doesn't NEED this CD!
Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Marriott, SkyMap Software, UK (ch...@skymap.com).
Visit our web site at: http://www.skymap.com
Astronomy software written by astronomers, for astronomers.
Jason Compton
Andrew Plotkin (erky...@netcom.com) wrote:
: We're talking about the May issue, right? That's what I was told on
Yes, the May issue is what you want. It'll be tough to miss, the top bar
will be fluorescent orance with the rest of it a bright blue with a
snowboarder, and "Interactive Fiction" will be one of the cover stories.
Jason Compton
Chris Marriott (ch...@NOSPAM.skymap.com) wrote:
: The "hard core IF community" knows about, and has easy access to, the gmd IF
: archive and doesn't NEED this CD!
Except that they've been the ones who have campaigned time and time again
for an IF CD.
Samuel DAF Barlow
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Den of Iniquity wrote:
> I wouldn't be quite so negative but I would warn Ian that even though he
> isn't profiting, if people buy the CD and write to the author about the
> game, they're going to expect to be treated like paying customers, like it
> or not. Especially if they have any complaints to make (not that anyone
> should, but strange things happen to people when they part with money and
> find that they're not entirely satisfied).
>
Any game that is sold for money will have to been tested to hell before
release. The normal routine of release v1 then receive copious
bug-reports and release a much-improved v2 will not be acceptable for
commercial releases. This will require much more alpha/beta/omega
testing than is usual to authors of freeware-IF. IF I bought a
commercial IF game and it had any *spelling mistakes* then I would be
irked. So you can imagine how I'd feel if there were bugs. And getting a
fixed-copy to all the people who bought the original is not easy when
the game isn't freely downloadable from gmd.de.
But, yes -- the idea is very attractive. You could hold some sort of
deadline (like for the If.comp) when authors had to get works in by and
then choose the best. Spend another 1/2 year getting them water-tight
for release. I would love to *buy* IF (and I'm not talking about
shareware IF) -- its the same difference as between borrowing a book
from a library and acutally buying a book. (Thats how I feel anyway)
Sam.
(who looks forward to the day when a top-selling computer games magazine
has a cover along the lines of 'INSIDE! NEW ADAM CADRE GAME!' and a big
picture of a busty 18-yr old exploring ancient greece)
Stephen Granade
On 28 Apr 1998, Jason Compton wrote:
> Now, I don't want to make too sweeping of a generalization, but if the
> hardcore IF community hasn't exactly fallen over itself to buy a CD with
> 40+ megs of IF stuff on it, what hope is there for any sort of attempt to
> make money off of a dedicated product of lesser scope?
My guess is that there are more factors at work than people's willingness
(or lack thereof) to buy an IF CD. People have reported having problems
finding the magazine; the CD contains nothing new; the audience for which
the CD is intended is not necessarily the same as that for a pure
commercial venture or even for the GUA CD.
Stephen
--
Stephen Granade | Interested in adventure games?
sgra...@phy.duke.edu | Check out
Duke University, Physics Dept | http://interactfiction.miningco.com
Francis Irving
On 28 Apr 1998 03:52:31 GMT, jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton)
wrote:
>Now, I don't want to make too sweeping of a generalization, but if the
>hardcore IF community hasn't exactly fallen over itself to buy a CD with
>40+ megs of IF stuff on it, what hope is there for any sort of attempt to
>make money off of a dedicated product of lesser scope?
Marketing an individual game with fun packaging is very different from
selling an archive CD. From my point of view, I feel that I've
already downloaded what I want on the CD from the internet. I might
buy the magazine to read the articles, to see IF in print, but I'm not
massively tempted by the CD.
People are up to their ears in information, data, stuff these days. A
CD collection is useful to people who are involved in the subject, and
like the convenience of not needing a net download.
A high quality game, with attractive packaging, and maybe moderate
graphics/sound in an attractive interface, is much more likely to sell
to people who don't have the time to look through a large collection.
Francis.
Home: fra...@pobox.co.uk Web: www.meta.demon.co.uk
Jason Compton
Stephen Granade (sgra...@bohr.phy.duke.edu) wrote:
: On 28 Apr 1998, Jason Compton wrote:
:
: > Now, I don't want to make too sweeping of a generalization, but if the
: > hardcore IF community hasn't exactly fallen over itself to buy a CD with
: > 40+ megs of IF stuff on it, what hope is there for any sort of attempt to
: > make money off of a dedicated product of lesser scope?
: My guess is that there are more factors at work than people's willingness
: (or lack thereof) to buy an IF CD. People have reported having problems
: finding the magazine; the CD contains nothing new; the audience for which
: the CD is intended is not necessarily the same as that for a pure
: commercial venture or even for the GUA CD.
Well, at least I got everybody's attention.
Yes, of course, it's not the same as either of those (although I submit
that it's a pretty decent substitute for GUA). But as an imperfect
substitute yet a similar product, I say that there are still a couple of
lessons to be learned here.
Including the fact that it's damn difficult to get major bookstores to
carry specialty items! Even when some members of the chain carry the
product!
co...@altavista.net
In article <6i3jpv$knu$1...@flood.xnet.com>,
jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton) wrote:
>
> All of this talk is very nice but the only person who has mentioned buying
> the CU Amiga IF-laden CD is an Amiga user who would have bought it anyway.
> big IF logo on the back sleeve. (I have also had exactly one letter from
> an American whose local Borders and Barnes and Noble deny knowledge of the
> magazine--not surprising, but also not true since some stores in the
> chains do carry them)
>
The Barnes and Noble in Keystone (Indianapolis, IN) does carry the magazine.
I will be purchasing it as soon as the May issue arrives (the imports take a
little while). Thank you, Jason, for all of your hard work putting together
and promoting this CD archive.
I hesitate to make this offer for fear of being overrun with requests, but I
am willing to purchase extra copies of the magazine to send to any US
resident who wants one but is unable to get one in their area. I must limit
this offer to US residents because I don't want to deal with determining
postage for sending them to other countries. I will charge only the cost of
the magazine, tax, postage and a few cents extra for the big envelopes. I
don't know how many copies the store will have, so I will make a list of
requests and fill them in the order that they are placed. I will take
requests through the afternoon of April 30, because I will probably go to the
bookstore that evening.
Send your name, address and email address to me at my work address:
randy_cox@truevision!!!.com (removing the exclamation marks, of course.)
I hope this is a good idea. I guess I'll find out.
--Randy "Magazine Boy" Cox
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Andrew Plotkin
Jason Compton (jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com) wrote:
> Stephen Granade (sgra...@bohr.phy.duke.edu) wrote:
> : On 28 Apr 1998, Jason Compton wrote:
> :
> : > Now, I don't want to make too sweeping of a generalization, but if the
> : > hardcore IF community hasn't exactly fallen over itself to buy a CD with
> : > 40+ megs of IF stuff on it, what hope is there for any sort of attempt to
> : > make money off of a dedicated product of lesser scope?
> :
> : My guess is that there are more factors at work than people's willingness
> : (or lack thereof) to buy an IF CD. People have reported having problems
> : finding the magazine; the CD contains nothing new; the audience for which
> : the CD is intended is not necessarily the same as that for a pure
> : commercial venture or even for the GUA CD.
> Well, at least I got everybody's attention.
I wish people wouldn't take false positions just to get attention.
There's enough dishonesty on the Net.
I could go into a discussion of the goal and target audience of the GUA CD
project (and Ivan's version). But if you already know what the answer to
your question is, I won't bother.
Magnus Olsson
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.98042...@adamant.res.wpi.net>,
>> IF <mord...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > While it's not entierly new, I'm currently in production of a H-TADS
>> >version of Babel, complete with sound and graphics that should be ready in
>> >about six months. I would be more than happy to give this game for
>use on the
>> >profits are made could go directly to Chris, which would let everyone else
>> >have a slightly larger slice. Also, any further games I do would also be up
>> >for grabs. Let me know if anything comes of it.
>> This is a generous offer, but if we want to become commercial authors
>> I think giving your work away free is not a good way to start.
>> It makes it harder for other authors to strike good deals.
>>
> I think the small army of shareware authors would disagree with that.
Shareware isn't about giving things away for free, at least not for most
definitions of shareware. The most common definition is "download
now, pay later, if you liked the program".
I suppose you mean the small army of freeware authors?
> So do I, for that matter. Releasing a game for free means people are more
>likely to play it-- and hence more likely to say "Hey, that was cool, where
>can I get more??"... (And particularly if you're willing to make the game
>free in a broader sense as free software... although I can understand why
>people would be reluctant to do so, if they don't want people tampering with
>their stories.)
>
> And anyway, I think he was saying that he'd contribute it to the CD
>project, to be sold on the CD without him getting money, which would mean that
>there'd be more project money left at the end to either split among
>contributing authors or whatever....
Indeed, that's what he said. What I think Phil meant, and if he does I
certainly agree with him, is that it's a bad idea to give away your work
for free to a publisher, *who's then going to sell it with a profit*.
That creates a precedent that will worsen the prospects for other authors
negotiating with publishers. "What, you want a royalty? But this other
author gave me his work for free!"
--
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se, zeb...@pobox.com)
------ http://www.pobox.com/~zebulon ------
Jason Compton
co...@altavista.net wrote:
:
: The Barnes and Noble in Keystone (Indianapolis, IN) does carry the magazine.
: I will be purchasing it as soon as the May issue arrives (the imports take a
: little while). Thank you, Jason, for all of your hard work putting together
: and promoting this CD archive.
You're welcome.
: this offer to US residents because I don't want to deal with determining
: postage for sending them to other countries. I will charge only the cost of
: the magazine, tax, postage and a few cents extra for the big envelopes. I
: don't know how many copies the store will have, so I will make a list of
: requests and fill them in the order that they are placed. I will take
: requests through the afternoon of April 30, because I will probably go to the
: bookstore that evening.
Good luck to you. Since you at least know that THIS bookstore might have
some notion of how to order CU (since they already get it) you might want
to consider asking if you can get additional issues if they run out.
George Caswell
On 28 Apr 1998, Magnus Olsson wrote:
> >> This is a generous offer, but if we want to become commercial authors
> >> I think giving your work away free is not a good way to start.
> >> It makes it harder for other authors to strike good deals.
> >>
> > I think the small army of shareware authors would disagree with that.
>
> Shareware isn't about giving things away for free, at least not for most
> definitions of shareware. The most common definition is "download
> now, pay later, if you liked the program".
>
> I suppose you mean the small army of freeware authors?
>
Actually, I agree with you about shareware--- but it -was- shareware I was
referring to, on the basis of being something where (for example) people give
something away free (in monetary terms) and use it to try and get people to
buy more. Doom episode 1. Quake part 1. etc. I hardly think they've found
that 'giving ... work away for free' 'makes it harder ... to strike good
deals'. Rather, it draws people in. I don't see how this situation is
different.
Branko Collin
>
>Jason Compton wrote in message <6i3jpv$knu$1...@flood.xnet.com>...
>>Now, I don't want to make too sweeping of a generalization, but if the
>>hardcore IF community hasn't exactly fallen over itself to buy a CD with
>>40+ megs of IF stuff on it, what hope is there for any sort of attempt to
>>make money off of a dedicated product of lesser scope?
>
>
>The "hard core IF community" knows about, and has easy access to, the gmd IF
>archive and doesn't NEED this CD!
I do not consider myself to be "hard core IF", although I have been
reading this group for several years now. That notwithstanding, I am
not going to download 40+ MB from the gmd site, if I can buy the same
much cheaper in the form of a cover mounted CD.
Well, that may be a European thing: as you may know, we pay per second
for our telephone calls. (If anyone's interested: about 16,5 cents per
40 seconds in the Netherlands, I guess that is about 10 US
dollar-cent.)
--
branko collin
col...@xs4all.nl
help me pick my glasses: http://www.xs4all.nl/~collin/bril/
weird...@prodigy.net
In article <6i3jpv$knu$1...@flood.xnet.com>,
jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton) wrote:
>
> All of this talk is very nice but the only person who has mentioned buying
> the CU Amiga IF-laden CD is an Amiga user who would have bought it anyway.
> It's out. Has been out for two weeks now. The jewel case has a very nice
> big IF logo on the back sleeve. (I have also had exactly one letter from
> an American whose local Borders and Barnes and Noble deny knowledge of the
> magazine--not surprising, but also not true since some stores in the
> chains do carry them)
>
> hardcore IF community hasn't exactly fallen over itself to buy a CD with
> 40+ megs of IF stuff on it, what hope is there for any sort of attempt to
> make money off of a dedicated product of lesser scope?
>
My personal feeling is that the "5-10" games mentioned in a previous post
doesn't stack up very well compared to most other software bundles. Compare 5
IF games for $15 compared to some of the prices I've seen including:
MASTERPIECES OF INFOCOM 33 commercial text adventures plus 6
non-commercial for $20 DOOM TRILOGY A 36 level game, a 32 level game and
3000 bonus levels for $20 LUCASARTS ARCHIVES 3 6 cds which include the
first two Monkey Islands, Dark Forces and a sampler for $30 DAY OF THE
TENTACLE not really a package, but $10 for 6 disks worth of one of the
funniest games plus the original classic Maniac Mansion
Can we really say that 10 text games could compete with *any* of those if you
had to pay for it?
PS My choices for the preceding list were based on the following criteria:
I own it and I remember the price :)
weird...@prodigy.net
weird...@prodigy.net
weird...@prodigy.net
weird...@prodigy.net
weird...@prodigy.net
In article <6i3h82$hcn$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
My personal feeling is that the "5-10" games mentioned in a previous post
doesn't stack up very well compared to most other software bundles.
Compare 5 IF games for $15 compared to some of the prices I've seen including:
MASTERPIECES OF INFOCOM 33 commercial text adventures plus 6
non-commercial for $20 DOOM TRILOGY A 36 level game, a 32 level game and
3000 bonus levels for $20 LUCASARTS ARCHIVES 3 6 cds which include the
first two Monkey Islands, Dark Forces and a sampler for $30 DAY OF THE
TENTACLE not really a package, but $10 for 6 disks worth of one of the
funniest games plus the original classic Maniac Mansion
Can we really say that 10 text games could compete with *any* of those if you
had to pay for it?
PS My choices for the preceding list were based on the following criteria:
I own it and I remember the price :)
Weird Beard
weird...@prodigy.net
There are 42 dots on a pair of dice
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
GLYPH
> Any game that is sold for money will have to been tested to hell before
> release. The normal routine of release v1 then receive copious
> bug-reports and release a much-improved v2 will not be acceptable for
> commercial releases.
What? You mean we *shouldn't* follow Microsoft's example? ;)
But, yes, games will need to go through the testing phases BEFORE going
to the CD.
- GLYPH
Howard A. Sherman
Samuel DAF Barlow wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Den of Iniquity wrote:
>
> > I wouldn't be quite so negative but I would warn Ian that even though he
> > isn't profiting, if people buy the CD and write to the author about the
> > game, they're going to expect to be treated like paying customers, like it
> > or not. Especially if they have any complaints to make (not that anyone
> > should, but strange things happen to people when they part with money and
> > find that they're not entirely satisfied).
> >
>
> Any game that is sold for money will have to been tested to hell before
> release. The normal routine of release v1 then receive copious
> bug-reports and release a much-improved v2 will not be acceptable for
> commercial releases. This will require much more alpha/beta/omega
> testing than is usual to authors of freeware-IF. IF I bought a
> commercial IF game and it had any *spelling mistakes* then I would be
> irked. So you can imagine how I'd feel if there were bugs. And getting a
> fixed-copy to all the people who bought the original is not easy when
> the game isn't freely downloadable from gmd.de.
>
With Zork I at release 88 as of the Masterpices CD, I think a few bugs here and
there are perfectly acceptable within some boundaries of reason....
> But, yes -- the idea is very attractive. You could hold some sort of
> deadline (like for the If.comp) when authors had to get works in by and
> then choose the best. Spend another 1/2 year getting them water-tight
> for release. I would love to *buy* IF (and I'm not talking about
> shareware IF) -- its the same difference as between borrowing a book
> from a library and acutally buying a book. (Thats how I feel anyway)
>
> Sam.
Agreed whole-heartedly! I'd buy IF in a second, right off the shelf from any
computer/book store in a second.
>
>
> (who looks forward to the day when a top-selling computer games magazine
> has a cover along the lines of 'INSIDE! NEW ADAM CADRE GAME!' and a big
> picture of a busty 18-yr old exploring ancient greece)
That would rock! I'd buy THAT in a second too! :)
Howard Sherman
Next-Generation Implementor
GLYPH
weird...@prodigy.net wrote:
> There are 42 dots on a pair of dice
The average 1000-hour lightbulb burns out on the 42nd day.
- GLYPH
Howard A. Sherman
Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> Phil Goetz (go...@cs.buffalo.edu) wrote:
> > In article <35436175...@ix.netcom.com>,
> > IF <mord...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is a generous offer, but if we want to become commercial authors
> > I think giving your work away free is not a good way to start.
> > It makes it harder for other authors to strike good deals.
>
> Hm. I've also heard the opposite argument -- that if there's a channel for
> people to sell IF, it will reduce the amount of good free IF, because
> all the authors will be tempted by filthy lucre and go commercial!
>
> I think both of these arguments are -- not false, because both factors
> will occur to some extent -- but unimportant. Neither is a reason to hold
> back from either commercial IF ventures or free ones. It will always be
> possible to write freeware IF; it will always be possible to charge money
> for IF, at least by shareware. Neither form will destroy the other.
>
What's been ignored is the profit/greed factor - authors (like myself,
perhaps..<grin>) will be motivated to turn out good IF, I mean *really* good IF to
sell, cultivate a following of satisfied customers who liked game 1 and are actively
looking for game 2, and so on...
In my history lessons serve me, Infocom did pretty much the same thing... It got to
the point where my and my (then) high school friends would buy an Infocom game, any
Infocom game, just because it said "Infocom" on the box regardless of the genre,
difficulty level, author, etc. etc. Bearing in mind that a high school kid with a
part time job had a little more trouble than adults shelling out $40-$50 for a game
says something don't you think?
And since at least 3-4 of my friends of that long-vanished era shared my enthusiasm
for Infocom games, and Infocom games were the rage among all of us geeks in high
school we can't just call this a contained anomoly...
> > What happened to the IF CD that was compiled over a year ago,
> > with games from rec.arts.int-fiction,
> > and was supposed to be out for Christmas '97?
>
> I was in charge. I failed to pull it together. It did not happen. I could
> have pretended to believe I would get back to it someday, but it would
> have been silly, so I declared it dead.
>
> Ivan has been (of his own initiative) considering restarting the project;
> that's what he's been talking about. He has my big pile of unfinished
> files. But it's his problem now, not mine. :)
Howard A. Sherman
Andrew Plotkin wrote:
Howard Sherman
Next-Generation Implementor/Profiteer
Howard A. Sherman
On that score, Barnes & Noble, Amazon.Com, Borders, B. Dalton's, Brentano's,
Waldenbooks, etc. would make excellent channels..
Howard
(Having an idea forming in his head)
Ivan Cockrum wrote:
> In article <Es1FK...@world.std.com>, olo...@world.std.com (Mark J
> Musante) wrote:
>
> > First David "Jarbigruen" Cornelson, then Mike Berlyn, and now you.
> > I would love to be able to make a living at writing IF, but I really
> > don't see the market for it.
>
> The big trick is to MAKE the market. Like Mike Berlyn says, you gotta go
> after 'niche markets,' and tailor your product specifically to those
> groups.
>
> -- Ivan
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ivan Cockrum www.cockrumville.com iv...@NOSPAMcockrumville.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> To reply by email, remove "NOSPAM" from the address above.
Howard A. Sherman
Mark J Musante wrote:
> Ivan Cockrum (iv...@NOSPAMcockrumville.com) wrote:
> > A lot of discussion has been going on lately about selling IF over the
> > internet. And there's been a lot of historical discussion about getting
> > IF back on store shelves in one form or another. Well, I have a business
> > contact who may be able to help make all of this possible, if we're
> > willing to work with him.
>
> If I may so bold, I'd like to suggest that this might be one of those
> ideas Whose Time Has Come.
>
> First David "Jarbigruen" Cornelson, then Mike Berlyn, and now you.
> I would love to be able to make a living at writing IF, but I really
> don't see the market for it.
Why not, Mark? As I posted in this newsgroup about 3-4 months back... if book
sales are up, and computer sales are up then wouldn't the natural marriage of
books to computers be a match made in heaven?
Howard
(Brainstorming)
Howard A. Sherman
>
>
> He can offer full access to everything we need. For online purchasing:
> secure server, credit card processing (look here:
> http://home.paragongroup.com/fulfillment_2.html#internet_capture), 24-hour
> call center, fulfillment processing, etc. For physical publication:
> CD-ROM and floppy replication, ties to nationwide (US, that is - I don't
> know about international) distributors, relations with print shops.
>
> Though he has access to all of this, he and his people are not content
> developers. They sell media, and some content developed by other people.
> Now, Chris's CD-ROM shop is a very small part of the overall conglomerate,
> but he wants to take advantage of all these services he has access to by
> partnering with some content developers. Chris is a big game fan. He's
> done replication jobs for Sierra and Microsoft, plays all the latest
> games. I've shown him some IF, and while I don't think he'd really played
> any before, I think he appreciates that it has the potential to find an
> audience if marketed correctly.
>
> So, basically, here's the proposition. If we can get something ready for
> market, Chris can replicate the media, get the printing done for manuals &
> such, supply the back end for a web site (we can do our own front end and
> domain name), and try to push it to his distribution contacts. All of
> this means no cost on the developer's part to create a professional
> package.
>
> The catch? Well, he's probably going to want around 50% of the gross.
> That's a rough figure and subject to negotiation - Chris is a good guy -
> but that's business. He wants to make a profit. But remember - this is
> 50% of gross on an actual, physical product.
>
That seems like a pretty hefty cut. As an ISP, I've priced CD replication at
about $1.25 per CD in quantities of 1,000 including 2-color process and CD
sleeve. Since I've already developed my own distributable software on CD and
standard 3.5" disk, I have access to a graphic arts firm that can take logo
art and make anything out of it (disk labels, boxes, instruction manuals,
etc.) And what's perhaps better, my next door neighbor in my office building
specializes in custom goods of every type (he's done keychains shaped as
disks, mousepads and shirts for me) including coffee mugs, hats, bottle
openers, box cutters, stuffed animals, matcbooks and matchboxes, smelling
salts, pens and God only knows what else. His office is a riot of customized
products of every type imaginable.
Does anyone see where I'm going with this....? :)
> Now, my personal feeling is that no one single game (Avalon excepting) is
> going to justify all of this muscle. There's just not going to be enough
> return on investment. However, if a bunch of us can put together a
> serious unified venture - a kooky little thing called TextFire springs to
> mind - and create, say, 5 - 10 new, full sized games, then I believe that
> might justify the effort of producing and marketing a CD-ROM.
> Alternately, I think a smaller number of text/graphic games done with
> HyperTads or Blorb would do.
> Oh no, not another joke or spoof! :)
> I do also want to work something out where we can sell games directly
> through the website for a reasonable percentage of the gross - after all,
> no media, no production costs.
>
That sounds good.. again my ISP resources - I have T1s, Linux and NT boxes and
I already virtually host over 50 companies. I have a credit card account
which accepts Visa, MasterCard and American Express and under my company
Random Entertainment Corp., my account already has full approval for net-based
transactions of software... (I've been brewing an idea like this for about a
year now...)
> So this is it. Here's your chance to put your money where your mouth is.
> By myself, I have little to offer Chris. As a team, perhaps we can live
> the dream of reviving commercial IF. Let's start with some open
> discussion. Once we determine if anyone here is interested, I recommend
> we try to have some organized meetings on ifMUD.
>
I certainly agree with the team-effort approach in some form or fashion.
Going it alone can be tough. believe me, I know. But as for Chris, he seems
to want just a bit too big a piece of the pie for my liking...
Howard
(Now experiencing full brain meltdown)
Andrew Plotkin
weird...@prodigy.net wrote:
> > : However, if a bunch of us can put together a
> > : serious unified venture - a kooky little thing called TextFire springs to
> > : mind - and create, say, 5 - 10 new, full sized games, then I believe that
> > : might justify the effort of producing and marketing a CD-ROM.
> My personal feeling is that the "5-10" games mentioned in a previous post
> doesn't stack up very well compared to most other software bundles.
> Compare 5 IF games for $15 compared to some of the prices I've seen including:
Um, something went horribly wrong -- you posted that about five times.
Anyway, the software bundle you're referring to is all reprinted
software. Hugely discounted compared to the price charged when it was
new. The question is five to ten *new* games.
George Caswell
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, GLYPH wrote:
> > Any game that is sold for money will have to been tested to hell before
> > release. The normal routine of release v1 then receive copious
> > bug-reports and release a much-improved v2 will not be acceptable for
> > commercial releases.
>
> What? You mean we *shouldn't* follow Microsoft's example? ;)
>
> But, yes, games will need to go through the testing phases BEFORE going
> to the CD.
>
The whole development process should be a testing phase.
Benjamin Kenward
hi all,
heres my view on all this. the thing i love about the i-f community is that
on the most part its reciprical - people are writing i-f for each other for
free, and are playing it for free. now to me, thats great, but some people
seem to think that if theres something going on then they ought to be able
to find a way to make money out of it. well, i suppose thats their
perogative but i for one will not be able to afford to pay for any i-f, and i
suspect the same goes for many people. whats more, i suspect (though i could
be wrong) that many i-f writers are happy to be appreciated for their efforts
but dont see their work as another potential money spinner. i for one have a
lot of respect for all those writers out there who do good work and release
it for free.
and before you accuse me of being a free-loader who just doesnt want his
supply of free games to dry up, i am writing a game myself which i plan to
release, for free. i dont claim that it will be of any standard, but i will
relish being able to contribute to the pool of free i-f, and hope that maybe
those authors whose games i have played and enjoyed could maybe get some
small pleasure from it in return.
ben.
Steve Young
>the CU Amiga IF-laden CD is an Amiga user who would have bought it anyway.
>It's out. Has been out for two weeks now. The jewel case has a very nice
>big IF logo on the back sleeve. (I have also had exactly one letter from
>an American whose local Borders and Barnes and Noble deny knowledge of the
>magazine--not surprising, but also not true since some stores in the
>chains do carry them)
>
>hardcore IF community hasn't exactly fallen over itself to buy a CD with
>40+ megs of IF stuff on it, what hope is there for any sort of attempt to
>make money off of a dedicated product of lesser scope?
Exactly the point I was trying to get over in my previous letter. I couldn't
honestly see any demand for IF commercialy, but thought if packed together
in a CD with many games it might have a chance, the lack of support for this
CD seems to prove even this might be an over exaggeration. Mind you, this
might not be to surprising as only IF enthusiasts really knew about this CD,
and most of them have probably already got the software and couldn''t see
the point of buying this magazine, particurlaly considering the price and it
is for the Amiga. Neutral observers would hardly now it was there anyway,
certainly not from looking at the mag or the CD on the front cover, as it
was almost invisible.
The idea is good though, and if followed in a PC magazine might actually get
people to see that IF is alive and kicking, but if done again it needs to
have a wider profile, certainly in the magazine. I haven't got it myself
yet, and before I did would like to know what was on the CD, as it wasn't
listed in the magazine. Read your post in which you gave a site where they
were listed, but when I tried it, said it didn't exist. If you could help I
would be obliged.
Steve
Kathy I. Morgan
Jason Compton <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:
> co...@altavista.net wrote:
> :
> : The Barnes and Noble in Keystone (Indianapolis, IN) does carry the magazine.
> : I will be purchasing it as soon as the May issue arrives (the imports take a
> : little while). Thank you, Jason, for all of your hard work putting together
> : and promoting this CD archive.
>
> You're welcome.
Yes, thank you, Jason, and thank you, Randy, for your generous offer to
help those of us who can't get the magazine locally.
This really is a nice community!
kathy
weird...@prodigy.net
In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>,
Sorry, my usenet server kept lying and saying there were errors, so I kept
trying :(
Your argument is good except for one point: The Infocom "Collection series,
which was both 5-10 titles per disk, rereleases and the same price failed to
please the IF croud because of the fact that is *was* only 5-10 text games
per disk. Then they added salt to the wound by taking the two GOOD
collections away.
Weird Beard
weird...@prodigy.net
Andrew Plotkin
weird...@prodigy.net wrote:
> > Anyway, the software bundle you're referring to is all reprinted
> > software. Hugely discounted compared to the price charged when it was
> > new. The question is five to ten *new* games.
> Your argument is good except for one point: The Infocom "Collection series,
> which was both 5-10 titles per disk, rereleases and the same price failed to
> please the IF croud because of the fact that is *was* only 5-10 text games
> per disk. Then they added salt to the wound by taking the two GOOD
> collections away.
No, the IF crowd was displeased because there *had been* those LTOI
collections -- same games, lower price per game. If Activision had
published the collection series in 1992, instead of LTOI, everybody would
have gone loved it. Not quite as much as we loved LTOI, but nearly.
Raising prices on games is just stupid.
The question is *still* five to ten new games. Or possibly one new game.
Different publishing models are being batted around here.
weird...@prodigy.net
But they *are* new if you haven't played them, right? Can you honestly say
that even genre specific IF CDs like those have won many *new* customers
over? Besides, that's partly my point - why charge them more for just 5-10
games when *we* can pay $5 more for 33 games?
As for your second point, I can get IF for free, some of it very good. Why
charge them $15 when we'd be able to get it free?
weird...@prodigy.net
In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>,
erky...@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:
>
> weird...@prodigy.net wrote:
> > > Anyway, the software bundle you're referring to is all reprinted
> > > software. Hugely discounted compared to the price charged when it was
> > > new. The question is five to ten *new* games.
>
> > Your argument is good except for one point: The Infocom "Collection series,
> > which was both 5-10 titles per disk, rereleases and the same price failed to
> > please the IF croud because of the fact that is *was* only 5-10 text games
> > per disk. Then they added salt to the wound by taking the two GOOD
> > collections away.
>
> No, the IF crowd was displeased because there *had been* those LTOI
> collections -- same games, lower price per game. If Activision had
> published the collection series in 1992, instead of LTOI, everybody would
> have gone loved it. Not quite as much as we loved LTOI, but nearly.
>
> Raising prices on games is just stupid.
>
> The question is *still* five to ten new games. Or possibly one new game.
No, I don't think the commercial world would be able to sell 10 text games
for $15, and the IF crowd is used to getting new games for free. Maybe the
real way to do it would to release something like "Competition '97 -- The
Collectors Edition" and put *everything* in it, including (but not limited
to) every participating game, walkthrough, interpreters and most importantly
the final scores (so that someone doesn't somehow pick every mediocre game in
a bizarre perversion of fate). I'm sure that even some peole here might pay
$15 for that.
Weird Beard
weird...@prodigy.net
co...@altavista.net
In article <6i5cv2$arj$2...@flood.xnet.com>,
jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton) wrote:
>
> Good luck to you. Since you at least know that THIS bookstore might have
> some notion of how to order CU (since they already get it) you might want
> to consider asking if you can get additional issues if they run out.
>
Nope. They won't do it. They just get a big box of Amiga magazines from
their distributor.
And Jason, I have gotten 6 requests so far, each person willing to shell out
US$18.00 for this magazine/CD. For a couple more dollars, they could order
Masterpieces from Activision. So, there is a demand for this sort of
product. Who knew?
--Randy
Dennis Matheson
weird...@prodigy.net wrote:
>
>>snip<<
>
> As for your second point, I can get IF for free, some of it very good. Why
> charge them $15 when we'd be able to get it free?
>
all net users are aware of things like ftp and the gmd archive or this
newsgroup. (Heck, a lot of net users probably don't know ftp or
newsgroups *exist*).
A commercial release would make IF available to a wider audience that
would never access ftp.gmd.de.
--
"You can't run away forever, but there's nothing wrong
with getting a good head start" --- Jim Steinman
Dennis Matheson --- Dennis....@delta-air.com
--- http://home.earthlink.net/~tanstaafl
Jason Compton
co...@altavista.net wrote:
: Nope. They won't do it. They just get a big box of Amiga magazines from
: their distributor.
I'd be surprised if it was a BIG box of Amiga magazines, but...:)
: And Jason, I have gotten 6 requests so far, each person willing to shell out
: US$18.00 for this magazine/CD. For a couple more dollars, they could order
: Masterpieces from Activision. So, there is a demand for this sort of
: product. Who knew?
Hey, wow.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Editor-in-Chief, Amiga Report Magazine VP, Legacy Maker Inc.
http://www.cucug.org/ar/ http://www.xnet.com/~jcompton/
Choose and renounce... throwing chains to the floor.
Michael Straight
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 weird...@prodigy.net wrote:
> No, I don't think the commercial world would be able to sell 10 text games
> for $15, and the IF crowd is used to getting new games for free. Maybe the
> real way to do it would to release something like "Competition '97 -- The
> Collectors Edition" and put *everything* in it, including (but not limited
> to) every participating game, walkthrough, interpreters and most importantly
> the final scores (so that someone doesn't somehow pick every mediocre game in
> a bizarre perversion of fate). I'm sure that even some peole here might pay
> $15 for that.
I think you have to choose between the "lets make a CD with tons of stuff
for people who already like IF" and the "lets try to bring IF to people
who are currently unaware of it" options.
A game the size of Curses or Jigsaw has as much or more playing time than
something like Myst. To throw a whole bunch of games on a CD seems to be
saying "these are only interesting to fool around with for an hour or so,
you probably won't like them well enough to really try to finish them."
To sell IF to people who are unfamilar with it, I think you have to try to
sell a particular story, make them want to see what happens in Spider and
Web or Losing your Grip enough to buy a game and play it, rather than
trying to sell them on the idea of playing IF in general.
"Buy this."
"What is it?"
"It's a book."
"What's it about?"
"It can be about anything, that's not the point, the point is it has
words, and you can do so much more with words than with moving pictures
and sounds."
"But what's it about?"
"You can read the story at your own pace, not at the pace some filmmaker
thinks you should see the story."
"But is it a good story?"
"It's got these words, you see! WORDS!!"
SMTIRCAHIAGEHLT
L. Ross Raszewski
In article
<Pine.A41.3.95L.98050...@login3.isis.unc.edu>#1/1,
Michael Straight <stra...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>
>
> "Buy this."
>
> "What is it?"
>
> "It's a book."
>
> "What's it about?"
>
> "It can be about anything, that's not the point, the point is it has
> words, and you can do so much more with words than with moving pictures
> and sounds."
Boom. You've lost my sale. The minute you start in with that
holier-than-thou "you can do so much more with words lie (YES IT IS A LIE) you
have lost me.
Besides, it's not about "anything", it's about exactly the ONE THING that the
author wanted it to be about. Yes, there may be multiple waysa to go about
it, but it is by no means about "anything".
And you're certainly not going to sell to me by saying "the point is it has
words". Stop signs have words. Cereal boxes have words. the "point" is that
it has a STORY. And once you've admitted that, to say it can be about
"anything" is an obvious lie.
>
> "But what's it about?"
>
> "You can read the story at your own pace, not at the pace some filmmaker
> thinks you should see the story."
Um... wait, you've dodged the question. That's bad salesmanship.
>
> "But is it a good story?"
>
> "It's got these words, you see! WORDS!!"
>
How evil.
Now, since I've already snipped the top of your message, it might sound (to
anyone why hasn't read the original) like I'm making an attack here; as it
turns out I'm agreeing with you(the original was offered as an example of
why trying to sell the text over the story was a bad idea)... BUT there is one
small thing that your argument (selling the story vs selling the text) leaves
out:
[THere be mild Zarf spoilers here]
"Okay, so it's a story about what?"
"You're a spy, and..."
"wait; what do you mean "you're"?"
"Well, you control how it goes."
"Like a choose your own adventure book? Aren't they just for kids?"
"Well, I guess it's sort of like that, but "
[THe author would like to take a moment here to note that this isn't really
his point, but instead something he stumbled upon by accident, namely that
most people will dismiss anythign you try to call a "game" as "kid's stuff".
But anyway, we can argue that int othe dirt another time.... Anyway, skipping
the explanation for now: ]
"Okay, I think I see your point. I guess it could be fun. How much is it?"
"THirty Dollars."
"THirty dollars? I'll wait for it to come out in paperback. Or floppy disk.
Or whatever. Is this in the library?"
"Um.. no. Then we wouldn't make any money."
"Oh. Sorry."
"COme on, buy it. it's really good."
"I'd really rather just get something out of the library."
[At this point, the author would like to (just because he can) have the hand
of God intervene, in the form of a passing advertisement for the IF archive.]
"Hey, wow, you mean I can get this sort of stuff for free?"
"Well... yes.. but this one is really, reallyt good."
"And those aren't?"
"Well.... Well, they'dbe selling htem too if they were any good, wouldn't
they?"
"Gee, I guess not..."
[At this point, the author would like to insert a passing himself, playing
"Babel" in a plamtop (yes, I know you can't play tads games on a palmtop. But
I don't have one anyway. THis is my story, so I'll tell it like I want to.]
"Hey, who are you?"
"Me? I'm just a passing writer."
"What are you playing there?"
"Huh? Oh, it's called "Babel", it's a text game."
"How much did it set you back?"
"Oh, it was free."
"Really? Must not have been very good then."
"Good? THis is one of the best games I've played in my life."
"And you for it for free?"
"Sure. Want a copy?"
"Hey, wait, I'm trying to make a sale here!"
"New Zarf Game?"
"Yeah. It's $30."
"I'll wait for it to come out in paperback. Anyway, you can get babel and
some other really great games at ftp.gmd.de/if-archive..."
So, if I haven;'t lost everyone by now, Here's my posit. Everyone seems
convinced thart we can somehow sell IF as if it was books. Unfortunately, it
doesn't work that way. First, you're not going to sell a game at "hardback
prices" to a crowd with no expereince with it. You could maybe get them to
shell out for a pricey game once you've got the market, but not to start.
And, should any of them catch wind of the IF-archive, I expect that sales
would take a dive.
Now, I know that the "we can sell IF" camp keeps insisting htat we're somehow
targeting non-net people, but we ARE targeting the computer literate, and
that's nearly the same thing nowadays. It's to the point whrere there is
almost no one with a computer but without internet access (A few, maybe, but
the number is shrinking by the day) And it won't take long for word of GMD to
get around. If commercial IF takes off, I will PERSONALLY start a GMD
advertising campaign (of admittedly small scale) And even without such a
thing, the new IF lovers will almost certainyl have a look around the net for
others with their interests, then -- BANG they find GMD, and provided there is
still an influx of free games, sales will drop.
What I'm implying here is that Commercial IF and free IF may not be able to
peaceably coexist, unless one is relegatedto an inferior position. And given
how many times I've heard "Who wouldn't want to make a few bucks off their
hobby", I fear it's GMD that will get the short end of the stick.
Gerry Kevin Wilson
In article <Pine.A41.3.95L.98050...@login3.isis.unc.edu>
Michael Straight <stra...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
> "But is it a good story?"
>
> "It's got these words, you see! WORDS!!"
"What are you reading, my Lord?"
"Words. Words. Words."
Sorry, couldn't resist.
---
G. Kevin Wilson: Freelance Writer and Game Designer. Resumes on demand.
Eric O'Dell
>What I'm implying here is that Commercial IF and free IF may not be able to
>peaceably coexist, unless one is relegatedto an inferior position. And given
>how many times I've heard "Who wouldn't want to make a few bucks off their
>hobby", I fear it's GMD that will get the short end of the stick.
Maybe, maybe not.
Free IF competes effectively with any potential commercial IF because
much free IF is as good or better than any commercial IF. I think it's
fair to say that we have only scratched the surface of the medium's
capabilities, and that a new generation of IF might be enough of an
advance over the free works that it could compete commercially. (I'll
leave what this "new generation" would be to the imaginations of the
developers.) The sales of Microsoft Excel are in no way damaged by the
availability of GNU Oleo because Excel is by far the better product.
GNU Oleo could have competed quite handily with the old DOS versions
of Lotus 1-2-3, however. Back in the heyday of commercial IF, Curses
could have competed commercially with Infocom's games. Et cetera.
IMHO, the production of commercial IF is hindered not so much by any
lack of viability as it is by a failure to accurately assess the
market conditions of the present day.
In 1985, the software market was a LOT smaller, a helluva lot more
technically literate, and on the whole better educated. In 1998, the
software market is enormous, the average user wouldn't know a command
prompt from a hole in the ground, and if the general content of Usenet
is any indication, the average education level is much, much lower.
The same kinds of people who played Infocom games in the 80's are
still out there, and they are probably more numerous than ever before,
but they are, proportionally, a much smaller slice of the user
population. The bulk of the newbies come from other segments of the
population. Forget about them. The people who prefer watching TV to
reading a novel are going to prefer Riven to Trinity every damn time.
No amount of wheedling, cajoling, persuasion, or brute force is going
to win them over. Not now, not ever. If you want to be Rand and Robyn
Miller, get a fast PC and learn how to use Macromedia Director and
SoftImage. And when games with production budgets like small movies
are coming on four or five CD-ROMs and selling for $40, you can forget
about charging that much for anything that can fit on a 3.5" diskette.
That doesn't mean that, if you've written a really good text
adventure, especially if it breaks new ground, that you can't make a
decent sum of money selling it. It does mean that you (probably)
aren't going to become a millionaire doing it.
I seem to recall reading that an Infocom game might have sold 30,000
to 50,000 copies. If you could sell in anything like the same numbers
at $5 a pop, well, you do the math. Since 1985, the potential market
for IF has grown in absolute numbers; the only shrinking it has done
has been in its proportion of the total market. The problem is, and I
think occasional posts to r.a.i-f and letters to the editor in
XYZZYnews illustrate this, is that many of the old IF crowd don't know
that IF is still alive and well, and that most of the potentially new
crowd haven't been exposed to IF yet.
The problem, to sum up, is that potential commercial IF authors need a
cost-effective way to reach a larger audience, and that those same
authors need to realize that not outselling Riven and Quake doesn't
mean that a comfortable living is a totally unrealistic goal.
E.
Jason Compton
Eric O'Dell (er...@gadgetguru.com) wrote:
: In 1985, the software market was a LOT smaller, a helluva lot more
: technically literate, and on the whole better educated. In 1998, the
There may well be statistics out there to back up this assertion but I'm
not convinced that it's the case. Buying an entry-level computer is on
average a more expensive proposition now than it was in 1985, and since
there's a correlation between disposable income and education, it's hard
to see how the market could be less educated.
Plus, plenty of people back then bought computers without knowing what the
hell they were for or what to do with them, just like now. It's just that
operating systems are more complicated now, there's more for stupid people
to screw up. (On an Apple II, you could screw up by not putting your
disks in the drive when you booted up. On a Commodore 64, once you
figured out the command that started 98% of all commercial software, you
were set for life. There's much more to contend with now.)
The market has different tastes, and those tastes are for less literary
works in general, but I don't think the customers are "dumber."
Paul O'Brian
On 1 May 1998, Gerry Kevin Wilson wrote:
> "What are you reading, my Lord?"
>
> "Words. Words. Words."
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist.
That Whizzard. What a little Ham.
(Get it? A little Ham? A Ham-let? See, when something is little, sometimes
you can... Ah, forget it.)
Paul O'Brian
obr...@colorado.edu
http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian
Knothole
On 1 May 1998 22:42:40 GMT, jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton)
wrote:
>Eric O'Dell (er...@gadgetguru.com) wrote:
>: In 1985, the software market was a LOT smaller, a helluva lot more
>: technically literate, and on the whole better educated. In 1998, the
>
>There may well be statistics out there to back up this assertion but I'm
>not convinced that it's the case. Buying an entry-level computer is on
>average a more expensive proposition now than it was in 1985, and since
>there's a correlation between disposable income and education, it's hard
>to see how the market could be less educated.
Eh? If I recall right, my Apple IIe cost about $1200-$1400 in 1985,
and in 1998, you can get a vastly more powerful machine for under
$1000. I've started seeing ads for Pentiums in the 166 MHz range
(basically, last year's model) for under $500. My old 50 MHz 486 cost
me nearly $2500 five years ago, versus the $1500 I paid for the much
more substantially loaded P-166 I got last year. Not only is computing
power astronomically cheaper considered in the abstract, but the
individual machines have been falling in price quite steadily since
about 1990.
>Plus, plenty of people back then bought computers without knowing what the
>hell they were for or what to do with them, just like now.
Sure, but a greater percentage of them at least diddled around with
programming in BASIC, and a healthy number even delved into assembly
language, especially in the Apple II world. The shelves of the
computer section in bookstores used to have a lot more books devoted
to teaching hobbyists how to program. Today's PC's by comparison don't
even come with an interpreter of any kind.
>It's just that
>operating systems are more complicated now, there's more for stupid people
>to screw up. (On an Apple II, you could screw up by not putting your
>disks in the drive when you booted up. On a Commodore 64, once you
>figured out the command that started 98% of all commercial software, you
>were set for life. There's much more to contend with now.)
OTOH, the user is shielded from much more of it by the user interface.
>The market has different tastes, and those tastes are for less literary
>works in general, but I don't think the customers are "dumber."
Issues of popular intelligence aside, which is a political-correctness
quagmire I didn't really intend to carelessly step into, the
correlation between "the market" in 1985 and "the market" in 1998 is
precisely the fallacy I'm trying to point out. In terms of
percentages, yes, the market's tastes have changed. I don't believe
that there is any reason to believe that the absolute numbers of the
IF demographic have declined, however.
I don't have the exact numbers handy, but let's say for the sake of
argument that there were a million or so personal computer owners in
the early eighties, and maybe 25% of them were occasional buyers of
IF, for an absolute total of approximately 250,000 potential
customers. In 1998, there are approximately 70 million computer
owners, and (for the sake of argument) maybe only 2% of them are
potential IF buyers, for an absolute total of 1.4 million potential
customers. The overall proportion of potential IF customers can
decline at the same time as their absolute numbers increase.
The real obstacle in the way of selling interactive fiction is
advertising. The cost of advertising has increased as the number of
computer owners (and thus the value of the market) has increased. In
1985, there were relatively few computer magazines for Infocom to buy
relatively cheap full-page ads in. In 1998, magazine readership is
fragmented across a huge number of publications with ad space hotly
contested by heavily capitalized and fiercely competitive
corporations. Whoever figures out an effective alternate route to
reaching the potential customer base will be making a lot of progress.
--Eric
Jason Compton
Knothole (knot...@yellowpine.com) wrote:
: >
: >There may well be statistics out there to back up this assertion but I'm
: >not convinced that it's the case. Buying an entry-level computer is on
: >average a more expensive proposition now than it was in 1985, and since
: >there's a correlation between disposable income and education, it's hard
: >to see how the market could be less educated.
:
: Eh? If I recall right, my Apple IIe cost about $1200-$1400 in 1985,
Oh, that's right, I forgot that Apples were horrifyingly expensive.
Well, a Commodore 64 system in 1985 was $600. Subtract $200 if you want
to hook it up to a TV.
: more substantially loaded P-166 I got last year. Not only is computing
: power astronomically cheaper considered in the abstract, but the
: individual machines have been falling in price quite steadily since
: about 1990.
The power isn't the issue, it's the buy-in price that's the question.
: Sure, but a greater percentage of them at least diddled around with
: programming in BASIC, and a healthy number even delved into assembly
: language, especially in the Apple II world. The shelves of the
: computer section in bookstores used to have a lot more books devoted
: to teaching hobbyists how to program. Today's PC's by comparison don't
: even come with an interpreter of any kind.
DOS is an interpreter of sorts.
: >figured out the command that started 98% of all commercial software, you
: >were set for life. There's much more to contend with now.)
:
: OTOH, the user is shielded from much more of it by the user interface.
I disagree, I think that so many more variables have been introduced that
on the whole there's more to contend with. Modems might not have DIP
switches anymore, but you never had to worry about init strings at
300-2400 baud.
Brock Kevin Nambo
Knothole wrote in message <354ea09b.92025824@news>...
>>There may well be statistics out there to back up this assertion but I'm
>>not convinced that it's the case. Buying an entry-level computer is on
>>average a more expensive proposition now than it was in 1985, and since
>>there's a correlation between disposable income and education, it's hard
>>to see how the market could be less educated.
>
>Eh? If I recall right, my Apple IIe cost about $1200-$1400 in 1985,
>$1000. I've started seeing ads for Pentiums in the 166 MHz range
>(basically, last year's model) for under $500. My old 50 MHz 486 cost
>me nearly $2500 five years ago, versus the $1500 I paid for the much
>power astronomically cheaper considered in the abstract, but the
>individual machines have been falling in price quite steadily since
>about 1990.
Yeah..all of my computers and everything that came with them were in the
$2000 range.. 1985, 1997, 1993...
>>Plus, plenty of people back then bought computers without knowing what the
>>hell they were for or what to do with them, just like now.
>
>Sure, but a greater percentage of them at least diddled around with
>programming in BASIC, and a healthy number even delved into assembly
>language, especially in the Apple II world. The shelves of the
>computer section in bookstores used to have a lot more books devoted
>to teaching hobbyists how to program. Today's PC's by comparison don't
>even come with an interpreter of any kind.
It seems QBasic isn't coming with Win95's DOS... Although, I got a used
computer, so I have it :)
And then you have your web browser as a JavaScript interpreter, but nobody
cares...
>>It's just that
>>operating systems are more complicated now, there's more for stupid people
>>to screw up. (On an Apple II, you could screw up by not putting your
>>disks in the drive when you booted up. On a Commodore 64, once you
>>figured out the command that started 98% of all commercial software, you
>>were set for life. There's much more to contend with now.)
>
>OTOH, the user is shielded from much more of it by the user interface.
And when it isn't, it gets annoying. If I'm in a text environment (like my
Apple //c) then it's ok to have text programs and cool to have graphic
programs. If I'm in a GUI (like Win95) I expect GUI and 'console mode' (aka
the DOS window) is just irritating.
>>BKNambo
--
Sunflash...@msn.com
Is there anything I can't do? <G>
World Domination through Trivia! [ chatquiz | onGames |
MarsMission ]
Heiko Nock
In article <Pine.A41.3.95L.98050...@login3.isis.unc.edu>,
Michael Straight <stra...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>A game the size of Curses or Jigsaw has as much or more playing time than
>something like Myst.
That would depend on how long it takes you to solve Myst.
>To throw a whole bunch of games on a CD seems to be saying "these are
>only interesting to fool around with for an hour or so, you probably
>won't like them well enough to really try to finish them."
So what you prefer is putting only one game on one CD so everyone will
think it's bigger than several games on one CD ?
I don't think your reasoning is very solid.
>To sell IF to people who are unfamilar with it, I think you have to try to
>sell a particular story, make them want to see what happens in Spider and
>Web or Losing your Grip enough to buy a game and play it, rather than
>trying to sell them on the idea of playing IF in general.
It's called Marketing.
>"Buy this."
>"What is it?"
>"It's a book."
>"What's it about?"
>"It can be about anything, that's not the point, the point is it has
> words, and you can do so much more with words than with moving pictures
> and sounds."
Actually it can't be about anything. It can only be about what the
author has put inside. And sometimes that's not very much.
>"But what's it about?"
>"You can read the story at your own pace, not at the pace some filmmaker
> thinks you should see the story."
You can read the story at your own pace, as long as you solve the
author's puzzles. If you don't you will sit around, your stress level
will rise to the top and you will rip out your hair while jumping
around on one leg.
Things like that just don't happen when reading a book.
>"But is it a good story?"
>"It's got these words, you see! WORDS!!"
Well, not even necessarily correct words. Ever played a Riebrad Zelseeus
gayme ? :)
--
Ciao/2, Heiko.....
John Elliott
"Brock Kevin Nambo" <newsm...@earthling.net> wrote:
>
>It seems QBasic isn't coming with Win95's DOS... Although, I got a used
>computer, so I have it :)
It's on the Win95 CD, it just doesn't get installed. It lives in a
directory called OLDMSDOS.
------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html --------------------
John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?"
|SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show
:-------------------------------------------------------------------------)
weird...@prodigy.net
In article <Pine.A41.3.95L.98050...@login3.isis.unc.edu>
#1/1,
Michael Straight <stra...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> > No, I don't think the commercial world would be able to sell 10 text games
> > for $15, and the IF crowd is used to getting new games for free. Maybe the
> > real way to do it would to release something like "Competition '97 -- The
> > Collectors Edition" and put *everything* in it, including (but not limited
> > to) every participating game, walkthrough, interpreters and most
importantly
> > the final scores (so that someone doesn't somehow pick every mediocre
game in
> > a bizarre perversion of fate). I'm sure that even some peole here might
pay
> > $15 for that.
>
> I think you have to choose between the "lets make a CD with tons of stuff
> for people who already like IF" and the "lets try to bring IF to people
> who are currently unaware of it" options.
MY introduction was Lost Treasures of Infomcom, which has 2 to 20 times more
games than what's being proposed now.
>
> A game the size of Curses or Jigsaw has as much or more playing time than
> something like Myst. To throw a whole bunch of games on a CD seems to be
And would fit on a 720K floppy. Why fool them into thinking that they're
really getting a CDs worth of software.
> saying "these are only interesting to fool around with for an hour or so,
> you probably won't like them well enough to really try to finish them."
No! It's saying "these are so good that we're never going to let them go away"
I *love* collectors editions. Besides "Masterpieces of Infocom" I've got
"Lucasarts Archives 3" (which includes THE best graphic adventure series, MI
1 & 2!!), the "Doom Trilogy", "Day of the Tentacle" (yeah, I know it's not
really a collector's edition, but Maniac Mansion 1 is built into the game)
and "The Zork Anthology". Unfortunately, only 3 of the games there are really
all that good. (I'm refering, of course, to Beyond Zork, Zork 0, and Nemesis)
>
> To sell IF to people who are unfamilar with it, I think you have to try to
> sell a particular story, make them want to see what happens in Spider and
> Web or Losing your Grip enough to buy a game and play it, rather than
> trying to sell them on the idea of playing IF in general.
>
> "Buy this."
> "What is it?"
> "It's a book."
> "What's it about?"
> "It can be about anything, that's not the point, the point is it has
> words, and you can do so much more with words than with moving pictures
> and sounds."
Are you being sarcastic or just pretentious? The Zork Trilogy, for instance,
is worse than every graphic Zork except RTZ and worse than Monkey Island 1-3
period IMNTBHO.
>
> "But what's it about?"
> "You can read the story at your own pace, not at the pace some filmmaker
> thinks you should see the story."
Are you talking about linearity? If you are then I'd have to say that, in
both text and graphics games, some games are linear and some aren't. Monkey
Island games are pretty non-linear.
If you aren't talking about linearity, I think you're being pretentious again.
Why should a graphics game not letting you do something you think you should
be worse than a text game saying "I don't know what the hell you're talking
about"?
> "But is it a good story?"
> "It's got these words, you see! WORDS!!"
So does my dictionary. It's a bundle of thrills.
Weird Beard
weird...@prodigy.net
jIghoSpu', jIleghpu', jIcharghpu'.
I came, I saw, I conquered.
Gord Dimitrieff
Hey all. I don't read this group regularily, but when I saw this post
I felt that I had to comment....
On Sat, 02 May 1998 04:53:35 GMT, knot...@yellowpine.com (Knothole)
wrote:
>The real obstacle in the way of selling interactive fiction is
>advertising. The cost of advertising has increased as the number of
>computer owners (and thus the value of the market) has increased. In
>1985, there were relatively few computer magazines for Infocom to buy
>relatively cheap full-page ads in. In 1998, magazine readership is
>fragmented across a huge number of publications with ad space hotly
>contested by heavily capitalized and fiercely competitive
>corporations. Whoever figures out an effective alternate route to
>reaching the potential customer base will be making a lot of progress.
This is certainly something that I can identify with. I had no idea
that IF was still around, until I accidentally ran across something
that mentioned it (probably something on aminet). I was totally
surprised that it was not only still around, but still thriving to
some extent. A system to compile/decompile infocom/z-machine games
was pretty much the last thing on earth that I would have expected....
anyway, it seems to me that the profile of IF could be raised if
somebody started a column or something similar in a print magazine for
computer-gaming (Hmm, maybe *I* should try this ;). Also, as far as
advertising goes, it would have to be very well targeted, because IF
is not going to appeal to the Doom/Quake generation at all... maybe
places like programming or even literary magazines would have more
effect than general gaming magazines.
gord
Adam J. Thornton
In article <6igc7j$lr1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <weird...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>> A game the size of Curses or Jigsaw has as much or more playing time than
>> something like Myst. To throw a whole bunch of games on a CD seems to be
>
>And would fit on a 720K floppy. Why fool them into thinking that they're
>really getting a CDs worth of software.
Because CDs are a lot more durable and less prone to damage.
Probably 25% of the floppies I have ever owned have gone to the great bit
bucket in the sky, or at least have significant data corruption. None of
my CDs are damaged. All have been stored in more or less the same fashion.
CD is a much, much better archival format.
And the price difference between a CD and a floppy is essentially nil. In
both cases, the media is not one of the major costs of the package.
Adam
--
ad...@princeton.edu Cynical and drunk and boring someone in some dark cafe
Phil Goetz
In article <6id8vi$9k1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>peaceably coexist, unless one is relegatedto an inferior position. And given
>how many times I've heard "Who wouldn't want to make a few bucks off their
>hobby", I fear it's GMD that will get the short end of the stick.
>
There are commercial books, and there are self-published books, free
web books, and fanzines. The self-published books, free books, and
fanzines are, by and large, bad. Definitely, you can't get good
literature for free (except by borrowing) because authors can get paid.
But I believe in rewarding people for their work. I believe we would have
very many less good books if authors were not paid for writing books.
I think it would be a /great/ thing if we could come to the point
where GMD "suffered", and was regarded as at best a proving ground for
new authors and at worst an archive of free schlock,
because the people who could write well were getting PAID for their stuff.
Phil Go...@zoesis.com
Eric O'Dell
On 2 May 1998 06:08:27 GMT, jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton)
wrote:
>: more substantially loaded P-166 I got last year. Not only is computing
>: power astronomically cheaper considered in the abstract, but the
>: individual machines have been falling in price quite steadily since
>: about 1990.
>
>The power isn't the issue, it's the buy-in price that's the question.
Buy-in price has declined by as much as 50% over the last year, and
may do so again this year.
>: Sure, but a greater percentage of them at least diddled around with
>: programming in BASIC, and a healthy number even delved into assembly
>: language, especially in the Apple II world. The shelves of the
>: computer section in bookstores used to have a lot more books devoted
>: to teaching hobbyists how to program. Today's PC's by comparison don't
>: even come with an interpreter of any kind.
>
>DOS is an interpreter of sorts.
That's really pushing it. DOS batch language may technically be a
language, but it certainly isn't anything approaching a general
purpose language. Write me a loan amortization program in DOS batch
language and I'll concede the point. Otherwise...
>: OTOH, the user is shielded from much more of it by the user interface.
>
>I disagree, I think that so many more variables have been introduced that
>on the whole there's more to contend with. Modems might not have DIP
>switches anymore, but you never had to worry about init strings at
>300-2400 baud.
I had to screw with initialization strings all the time in the 2400
baud era. I haven't had to even think about init strings since 14.4
modems came along.
--E.
Jason Compton
: may do so again this year.
That's actually not true at all. You're confusing power with price again.
The buy-in prices for a consumer who wants a PC (and refuses to scrounge
through the net or Computer Shopper to save a few bucks along the line)
has held pretty constant for years. The machines are different, the price
tags stay firmly in place.
: I had to screw with initialization strings all the time in the 2400
: baud era. I haven't had to even think about init strings since 14.4
: modems came along.
Really? All I ever worried about was atx, and maybe an ats or two if I
wanted to set auto-answer. You must have had much more complex concerns
than I did, and must have have much better 14.4 modems than I did if they
optimally connected all the time without having to worry about finding the
right init string and writing it to flashrom.
L. Ross Raszewski
In article <6igkl9$97j$1...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>#1/1,
go...@cs.buffalo.edu (Phil Goetz) wrote:
>
> But I believe in rewarding people for their work. I believe we would have
> very many less good books if authors were not paid for writing books.
> I think it would be a /great/ thing if we could come to the point
> where GMD "suffered", and was regarded as at best a proving ground for
> new authors and at worst an archive of free schlock,
> because the people who could write well were getting PAID for their stuff.
ANd I don't because I'm cheap. If IF goes totally commercial, I'm out. End
of conversation, I am NOT going to shell out $30 for a text game. That, and
I'm pulling my libraries from the archive (not that anyone uses them), at
least until I can get some licensing agreements sketched out for them. IF
Free IF and commercial IF don't coexist, then commercial IF is going to exist
without me. It's small of me, perhaps to make such a radical decision, but
when I choose not to sell my game, and it's considered inferior for that, then
it's time for me to change fields.
Now, I'm off to learn how to write adventure games in openGL.
Gerry Kevin Wilson
Let's look at the downsides of commercial IF:
1. You have to shell out hard earmed money for games you'd rather get
for free.
2. Freeware IF might get a reputation as poor man's IF, somehow inferior
to commercial IF.
Feel free to add to the list.
Now, the good side:
1. Commercial IF means paid, happy, dancing in the street IF writers.
2. Better packaging, wider marketing = more players -> more authors
-> more games.
3. Did I mention the happy, skipping IF writers?
Yeah, I'm biased. So what? I've served my time, I want my payoff.
Howard A. Sherman
> I think you have to choose between the "lets make a CD with tons of stuff
> for people who already like IF" and the "lets try to bring IF to people
> who are currently unaware of it" options.
>
> A game the size of Curses or Jigsaw has as much or more playing time than
> something like Myst. To throw a whole bunch of games on a CD seems to be
> saying "these are only interesting to fool around with for an hour or so,
> you probably won't like them well enough to really try to finish them."
>
> To sell IF to people who are unfamilar with it, I think you have to try to
> sell a particular story, make them want to see what happens in Spider and
> Web or Losing your Grip enough to buy a game and play it, rather than
> trying to sell them on the idea of playing IF in general.
>
I'm in total agreement with you here on this. We're computing a value here based
on our perceptions as seasoned IFers. What about the book maven and computer owner
who walks into Barnes & Noble to pick up a copy of a new release of some sort, sees
a boxed version of Curses, for example, and is intrigued by the concept of
computerized "Interactive Fiction". The price on the box is roughly the same as a
new release hardcover book, and less expensive than most other computer games on
the market. "What the hell", he says "it's worth a shot.", takes the copy of IF
along with his book over to the cashier.
Even seasoned IFers, I think, would pay for even one title of IF commercially if
they KNEW they were getting a top-shelf game of the highest quality possible for
their money.
One publishing standard that comes to mind is to make games Z8 as default - not
that quantity can overshadow quality, but the two would go together. The majority
of IF we have today is Z5. A whole library of huge, high quality Z8 games is the
philosophy I adopted and one I think makes the most sense.
Howard
> "Buy this."
>
> "What is it?"
>
> "It's a book."
>
> "What's it about?"
>
> "It can be about anything, that's not the point, the point is it has
> words, and you can do so much more with words than with moving pictures
> and sounds."
>
> "But what's it about?"
>
> "You can read the story at your own pace, not at the pace some filmmaker
> thinks you should see the story."
>
> "But is it a good story?"
>
> "It's got these words, you see! WORDS!!"
>
> SMTIRCAHIAGEHLT
Howard A. Sherman
>
>
> Now, since I've already snipped the top of your message, it might sound (to
> anyone why hasn't read the original) like I'm making an attack here; as it
> turns out I'm agreeing with you(the original was offered as an example of
> why trying to sell the text over the story was a bad idea)... BUT there is one
> small thing that your argument (selling the story vs selling the text) leaves
> out:
> [THere be mild Zarf spoilers here]
>
> "Okay, so it's a story about what?"
>
> "You're a spy, and..."
>
> "wait; what do you mean "you're"?"
>
> "Well, you control how it goes."
>
> "Like a choose your own adventure book? Aren't they just for kids?"
>
"No, it's not at all like that. The computer model of this story places you in
the role of the main character where several different, and sometimes random,
possibilities may take place. You can't get that kind of interaction from a book,
children's or otherwise."(One possible answer I may give)
> "Well, I guess it's sort of like that, but "
>
> [THe author would like to take a moment here to note that this isn't really
> his point, but instead something he stumbled upon by accident, namely that
> most people will dismiss anythign you try to call a "game" as "kid's stuff".
> But anyway, we can argue that int othe dirt another time.... Anyway, skipping
> the explanation for now: ]
>
> "Okay, I think I see your point. I guess it could be fun. How much is it?"
>
> "THirty Dollars."
>
> "THirty dollars? I'll wait for it to come out in paperback. Or floppy disk.
> Or whatever. Is this in the library?"
>
<A slight smile>" Sorry, it is what it is. Why don't you take home a free sampler
of a few of our titles and experience it for yourself then decide?"(A free sampler
disk, say on 3.5" disk, at cash registers across the country can go a long way if
designed right...)
> "Um.. no. Then we wouldn't make any money."
>
> "Oh. Sorry."
>
> "COme on, buy it. it's really good."
>
> "I'd really rather just get something out of the library."
>
> [At this point, the author would like to (just because he can) have the hand
> of God intervene, in the form of a passing advertisement for the IF archive.]
>
> "Hey, wow, you mean I can get this sort of stuff for free?"
>
> "Well... yes.. but this one is really, reallyt good."
>
> "And those aren't?"
>
> "Well.... Well, they'dbe selling htem too if they were any good, wouldn't
> they?"
>
"The difference is that the free work is excellent but lacks the size and depth of
the commercial versions in some cases. I'd certainly insist on playing all of
them because if not you're missing out on a great deal of good work. On the other
hand, the commercial versions go to a higher level."(And if we do commercial the
IF we'd turn out had BETTER BE the best IF work ever released.. Period.)
My above responses cover that with freeware samplers that can be downloaded online
or handed out on disk form at any store selling the IF product. And, again, if
the commercial IF is the best that IF can be, people will pay for it. A fully
loaded, super-detailed Z8 game you'd purchase in a store, with all the trappings
the Imps included in their packaging (Theme-inducing inclusions) written by an
author motivated to not only create a work of art but make a buck at it in the
process via royalties will drive out a product second-to-none. In a nutshell,
commercial IF has to overshadow the IF archive contents not only in size of the
game, but the quality play of the game itself.
> Now, I know that the "we can sell IF" camp keeps insisting htat we're somehow
> targeting non-net people, but we ARE targeting the computer literate, and
> that's nearly the same thing nowadays. It's to the point whrere there is
> almost no one with a computer but without internet access (A few, maybe, but
> the number is shrinking by the day) And it won't take long for word of GMD to
> get around. If commercial IF takes off, I will PERSONALLY start a GMD
> advertising campaign (of admittedly small scale) And even without such a
> thing, the new IF lovers will almost certainyl have a look around the net for
> others with their interests, then -- BANG they find GMD, and provided there is
> still an influx of free games, sales will drop.
>
That'll be great! I plan on making annual contributions to the IF archive and the
IF community at large with freeware whether or not I actually sell anything or
even try to sell anything. The IF community should NOT go totally commercial. We
can't forget our roots :)
> What I'm implying here is that Commercial IF and free IF may not be able to
> peaceably coexist, unless one is relegatedto an inferior position. And given
> how many times I've heard "Who wouldn't want to make a few bucks off their
> hobby", I fear it's GMD that will get the short end of the stick.
>
I think the two kinds of IF can co-exist very nicely together, as noted above.
I also think it's great to get this kind of input and put us on the hotseat now
and cover all the bases of this.
Howard A. Sherman
>
>
> Now, since I've already snipped the top of your message, it might sound (to
> anyone why hasn't read the original) like I'm making an attack here; as it
> turns out I'm agreeing with you(the original was offered as an example of
> why trying to sell the text over the story was a bad idea)... BUT there is one
> small thing that your argument (selling the story vs selling the text) leaves
> out:
> [THere be mild Zarf spoilers here]
>
> "Okay, so it's a story about what?"
>
> "You're a spy, and..."
>
> "wait; what do you mean "you're"?"
>
> "Well, you control how it goes."
>
> "Like a choose your own adventure book? Aren't they just for kids?"
>
"No, it's not at all like that. The computer model of this story places you in
the role of the main character where several different, and sometimes random,
possibilities may take place. You can't get that kind of interaction from a book,
children's or otherwise."(One possible answer I may give)
> "Well, I guess it's sort of like that, but "
>
> [THe author would like to take a moment here to note that this isn't really
> his point, but instead something he stumbled upon by accident, namely that
> most people will dismiss anythign you try to call a "game" as "kid's stuff".
> But anyway, we can argue that int othe dirt another time.... Anyway, skipping
> the explanation for now: ]
>
> "Okay, I think I see your point. I guess it could be fun. How much is it?"
>
> "THirty Dollars."
>
> "THirty dollars? I'll wait for it to come out in paperback. Or floppy disk.
> Or whatever. Is this in the library?"
>
<A slight smile>" Sorry, it is what it is. Why don't you take home a free sampler
of a few of our titles and experience it for yourself then decide?"(A free sampler
disk, say on 3.5" disk, at cash registers across the country can go a long way if
designed right...)
> "Um.. no. Then we wouldn't make any money."
>
> "Oh. Sorry."
>
> "COme on, buy it. it's really good."
>
> "I'd really rather just get something out of the library."
>
> [At this point, the author would like to (just because he can) have the hand
> of God intervene, in the form of a passing advertisement for the IF archive.]
>
> "Hey, wow, you mean I can get this sort of stuff for free?"
>
> "Well... yes.. but this one is really, reallyt good."
>
> "And those aren't?"
>
> "Well.... Well, they'dbe selling htem too if they were any good, wouldn't
> they?"
>
"The difference is that the free work is excellent but lacks the size and depth of
the commercial versions in some cases. I'd certainly insist on playing all of
them because if not you're missing out on a great deal of good work. On the other
hand, the commercial versions go to a higher level."(And if we do commercial the
IF we'd turn out had BETTER BE the best IF work ever released.. Period.)
> "Gee, I guess not..."
My above responses cover that with freeware samplers that can be downloaded online
or handed out on disk form at any store selling the IF product. And, again, if
the commercial IF is the best that IF can be, people will pay for it. A fully
loaded, super-detailed Z8 game you'd purchase in a store, with all the trappings
the Imps included in their packaging (Theme-inducing inclusions) written by an
author motivated to not only create a work of art but make a buck at it in the
process via royalties will drive out a product second-to-none. In a nutshell,
commercial IF has to overshadow the IF archive contents not only in size of the
game, but the quality play of the game itself.
> Now, I know that the "we can sell IF" camp keeps insisting htat we're somehow
> targeting non-net people, but we ARE targeting the computer literate, and
> that's nearly the same thing nowadays. It's to the point whrere there is
> almost no one with a computer but without internet access (A few, maybe, but
> the number is shrinking by the day) And it won't take long for word of GMD to
> get around. If commercial IF takes off, I will PERSONALLY start a GMD
> advertising campaign (of admittedly small scale) And even without such a
> thing, the new IF lovers will almost certainyl have a look around the net for
> others with their interests, then -- BANG they find GMD, and provided there is
> still an influx of free games, sales will drop.
>
That'll be great! I plan on making annual contributions to the IF archive and the
IF community at large with freeware whether or not I actually sell anything or
even try to sell anything. The IF community should NOT go totally commercial. We
can't forget our roots :)
> What I'm implying here is that Commercial IF and free IF may not be able to
> peaceably coexist, unless one is relegatedto an inferior position. And given
> how many times I've heard "Who wouldn't want to make a few bucks off their
> hobby", I fear it's GMD that will get the short end of the stick.
>
I think the two kinds of IF can co-exist very nicely together, as noted above.
Jason Compton
Gerry Kevin Wilson (g...@pobox.com) wrote:
:
: 1. Commercial IF means paid, happy, dancing in the street IF writers.
Or, horribly disgruntled and disillusioned IF writers who find out that
they can't get anybody to buy their product.
: 3. Did I mention the happy, skipping IF writers?
Did I mention the incredible difficulties?
Andrew Plotkin
Jason Compton (jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com) wrote:
> Gerry Kevin Wilson (g...@pobox.com) wrote:
> :
> : 1. Commercial IF means paid, happy, dancing in the street IF writers.
> Or, horribly disgruntled and disillusioned IF writers who find out that
> they can't get anybody to buy their product.
I think that's assuming that the commercial IF actually works out. He's
comparing what could happen if there was such a thing as commercial text
IF again.
If it doesn't, we're back to where we are now, and we all know where that
is.
--Z ("unemployed?! In Greenland!?")
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Jason Compton
Andrew Plotkin (erky...@netcom.com) wrote:
:
: > Or, horribly disgruntled and disillusioned IF writers who find out that
: > they can't get anybody to buy their product.
:
: I think that's assuming that the commercial IF actually works out. He's
: comparing what could happen if there was such a thing as commercial text
: IF again.
Fair enough, but it's worth pointing out that if a concerted effort is
made, and it -fails-, it may be worse for authors than if they'd never
tried at all, because instead of authors who are more or less enjoying
their work but say "Boy, I wish I was making money off of this," you'd get
authors saying "God damn it, nobody appreciates good art, I'm gonna start
a goat farm." Not to mention the fact that they'd probably have lost
money in the process.
Branko Collin
On Sun, 03 May 1998 04:43:29 GMT, er...@gadgetguru.com (Eric O'Dell)
wrote:
>On 2 May 1998 06:08:27 GMT, jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton)
>wrote:
>
>>: more substantially loaded P-166 I got last year. Not only is computing
>>: power astronomically cheaper considered in the abstract, but the
>>: individual machines have been falling in price quite steadily since
>>: about 1990.
>>
>>The power isn't the issue, it's the buy-in price that's the question.
>
>may do so again this year.
A modern PC can be had for as little as 1500 guilders these days. A
Commodore 64 cost about 800 guilders in 1985.
>>: Sure, but a greater percentage of them at least diddled around with
>>: programming in BASIC, and a healthy number even delved into assembly
>>: language, especially in the Apple II world. The shelves of the
>>: computer section in bookstores used to have a lot more books devoted
>>: to teaching hobbyists how to program. Today's PC's by comparison don't
>>: even come with an interpreter of any kind.
>>
>>DOS is an interpreter of sorts.
>
>That's really pushing it. DOS batch language may technically be a
>language, but it certainly isn't anything approaching a general
>purpose language. Write me a loan amortization program in DOS batch
>language and I'll concede the point. Otherwise...
IIRC, it was about whether people have had the chance to familiarize
themselves with programming. Whether DOS is a fully fledged
programming language is beside the point: it still enables people to
pick up some (admittedly simple) programming techniques. It allowes
them to create something that did not come ready out of the box. In
other words, it allows them a different, more active view on
computing.
--
branko collin
col...@xs4all.nl
help me pick my glasses: http://www.xs4all.nl/~collin/bril/
okbl...@usa.net
In article <6i63ra$3...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>#1/1,
"Howard A. Sherman" <ran...@excaliber.net> wrote:
>
> I certainly agree with the team-effort approach in some form or fashion.
> Going it alone can be tough. believe me, I know. But as for Chris, he
seems
> to want just a bit too big a piece of the pie for my liking...
>
Maybe I'm mistaken but publisher/distributors often only give 7%-15%
royalties, leaning toward less for risky products, as IF would certainly be.
IF Chris is suggesting that for %50 gross he'll produce the CDs and sell them,
he's generous to a fault.
Having some experience in the arena in the past, I imagine it's not enough
money to get excited over. Just to break even with the production would be an
event.
okbl...@usa.net
In article <6i4vds$651$2...@flood.xnet.com>#1/1,
jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton) wrote:
>
> Including the fact that it's damn difficult to get major bookstores to
> carry specialty items! Even when some members of the chain carry the
> product!
>
I *have* been trying, for what it's worth. I haven't seen it anywhere.
I suppose I should ask someone, but I'm afraid of the mocking derision I will
receive when I say "Amiga". (Hey, I think it was, I mean *is*, *is* a great
machine, only most American bookstores have clerks running the shops that are
too young to remember when it was a contendah.)
What does the "CU" stand for? That way I'll look somewhat less foolish when I
order it.
okbl...@usa.net
In article <354625fa...@news.xs4all.nl>#1/1,
col...@xs4all.nl (Branko Collin) wrote:
> Well, that may be a European thing: as you may know, we pay per second
> for our telephone calls. (If anyone's interested: about 16,5 cents per
> 40 seconds in the Netherlands, I guess that is about 10 US
> dollar-cent.)
>
We use our employer's T-1 lines here in the US. :-)
okbl...@usa.net
In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>#1/1,
erky...@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:
> The question is *still* five to ten new games. Or possibly one new game.
> Different publishing models are being batted around here.
>
I cannot think of a single new artistic product that is bundled on first run.
The closest I can come up with is retailers who offer purchase deals (like
pay-per-view cable or the local video store).
Products are bundled because they are undesirable individually. (Undesirable
in the retail sense of not enough people will buy them.)
Since the premise of this discussion seems to be that IF is, somehow,
desirable to enough people who can't manage to get all the IF they can handle
through free channels or existing bundles (say an unaware market), bundling
would seem to be shooting down the premise already.
If this is something that should be done, if people want it or they can be
made to want it, it should be packaged like something people want, not
apologetically mashed together on one CD as in "Well, we hope you'll find
something here you'll like."
okbl...@usa.net
In article <6iiemu$9c$1...@flood.xnet.com>#1/1,
jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton) wrote:
>
> Fair enough, but it's worth pointing out that if a concerted effort is
> made, and it -fails-, it may be worse for authors than if they'd never
> tried at all, because instead of authors who are more or less enjoying
> their work but say "Boy, I wish I was making money off of this," you'd get
> authors saying "God damn it, nobody appreciates good art, I'm gonna start
> a goat farm." Not to mention the fact that they'd probably have lost
> money in the process.
>
So it really *is* better to not try than to try and fail? ;-)
Kathy I. Morgan
L. Ross Raszewski <rras...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I am NOT going to shell out $30 for a text game
Where did the $30/price of a hardcover book come from, anyway? I agree
that it seems to me an outrageous price for a single text adventure in
today's market. What happened to the $5-$10/price of paperback price
range?
kathy
Heiko Nock
>> words, and you can do so much more with words than with moving pictures
>> and sounds."
>is worse than every graphic Zork except RTZ and worse than Monkey Island 1-3
>period IMNTBHO.
Worse in what way ? Sure, they don't have a lot of story, but a lot of
interesting puzzles instead.
>Are you talking about linearity? If you are then I'd have to say that, in
>both text and graphics games, some games are linear and some aren't. Monkey
>Island games are pretty non-linear.
You're kidding yourself. Monkey Island is extremely linear, but you
don't see it, because you can already explore places and characters, that
will only become important later in the game. Nevertheless you are
confined to a small area of places where you have to solve puzzles
before you can leave and move on to another small area of places.
>Why should a graphics game not letting you do something you think you should
>be worse than a text game saying "I don't know what the hell you're talking
>about"?
Because a graphics game can only implement a small range of alternative
solutions and graphical responses, since graphical gimmicks take a lot
more work to implement than a few words. This forces most players to
stay almost exactly on the path the author wants the player to follow.
>> "But is it a good story?"
>> "It's got these words, you see! WORDS!!"
>So does my dictionary. It's a bundle of thrills.
You haven't seen my telephone book yet. It even has NAMES!!
--
Ciao/2, Heiko.....
Jason Compton
okbl...@usa.net wrote:
:
: I suppose I should ask someone, but I'm afraid of the mocking derision I will
: receive when I say "Amiga". (Hey, I think it was, I mean *is*, *is* a great
: machine, only most American bookstores have clerks running the shops that are
: too young to remember when it was a contendah.)
Welcome to my world.
: What does the "CU" stand for? That way I'll look somewhat less foolish when I
: order it.
It used to stand for Commodore User. CU Amiga actually grew out of
Commodore User, which at the time meant Commodore 64. It then meant
Commodore (Amiga) User. Now that Commodore is defunct it just means CU.
:)
Knowing that won't help you find the magazine.
For those who can't find it, you can get a hold of it from Safe Harbor
(800-544-6599), Software Hut (800-93-AMIGA) or National Amiga (Canadian:
519-858-8760).
Jason Compton
okbl...@usa.net wrote:
: So it really *is* better to not try than to try and fail? ;-)
All kidding aside, yes, sometimes it is.
Eric O'Dell
On 3 May 1998 05:08:55 GMT, jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton)
wrote:
>Eric O'Dell (er...@gadgetguru.com) wrote:
>:
>: Buy-in price has declined by as much as 50% over the last year, and
>: may do so again this year.
>
>That's actually not true at all. You're confusing power with price again.
>The buy-in prices for a consumer who wants a PC (and refuses to scrounge
>through the net or Computer Shopper to save a few bucks along the line)
>has held pretty constant for years. The machines are different, the price
>tags stay firmly in place.
I'm not confusing squat. The big news in the industry during the third
and fourth quarters of 1997 was the introduction of the sub-$1000
entry-level PC, spearheaded by Monorail. Other companies quickly
followed suit. Many of these product lines were available in major
retail outlets, not just through the direct channel. Industry
projections indicate that we will see entry-level machines in the
sub-$500 range become commonplace before year's end.
What remains more or less constant in price are the cutting-edge
machines, which have hovered in the $3000 to $3500 range for many
years and will probably continue to do so. By no stretch of the
imagination, however, are these machines targeted at the general
consumer market.
What strikes me as odd, before we get even further off topic, is that
there is in some quarters such a visceral resistance to the idea that
IF could be profitable again, frequently from its most passionate
fans. Games, like most completely unnecessary luxury items, are driven
by much the same market forces as fashion in music or clothing, forces
that are very much cyclical. Each game genre, e.g. first person
combat, two-player fight games, flight sims, strategy games, etc.,
experiences periods of popularity and periods of relative obscurity.
Why should interactive fiction be any different? And even if it is to
be a niche genre due to changing market conditions (whatever the
reason), why should it be so obscure as to be unprofitable? Ham radio
and remote control airplanes are pretty obscure markets, too, but they
support a healthy number of smallish companies.
Reaching the conclusion that something is impossible foredooms it
whether it is actually possible or not.
--E.
Chris Marriott
okbl...@usa.net wrote in message <6iiv0h$um4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Maybe I'm mistaken but publisher/distributors often only give 7%-15%
>royalties, leaning toward less for risky products, as IF would certainly
be.
In the commercial software business, an author will typically receive 25%
royalties on the money which the publisher receives. The publisher will
typically offer the retailer a discount of anything from 30% to 50% of the
retail price, so the author ends up receiving somewhere around 12-17% of the
price which the user pays.
Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Marriott, SkyMap Software, UK (ch...@skymap.com).
Visit our web site at: http://www.skymap.com
Astronomy software written by astronomers, for astronomers.
Benjamin Kenward
L. Ross Raszewski (rras...@hotmail.com) wrote:
[snip]
: If IF goes totally commercial, I'm out. End
: of conversation, I am NOT going to shell out $30 for a text game. That, and
: I'm pulling my libraries from the archive (not that anyone uses them), at
: least until I can get some licensing agreements sketched out for them. IF
: Free IF and commercial IF don't coexist, then commercial IF is going to exist
: without me. It's small of me, perhaps to make such a radical decision, but
: when I choose not to sell my game, and it's considered inferior for that, then
: it's time for me to change fields.
These are my sentiments exactly... except i havnt written any libraries yet ;)
ben
Andrew Plotkin
The $7 paperback goes with a huge existing market and distribution
system.
The people that I've heard talking about selling a single text game
commercially, are talking about $20 for a game. That feels right to me.
--Z
L. Ross Raszewski
In article <6ij1r1$2or$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,
okbl...@usa.net wrote:
>
> In article <erkyrathE...@netcom.com>#1/1,
> erky...@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:
> > The question is *still* five to ten new games. Or possibly one new game.
> > Different publishing models are being batted around here.
> >
> I cannot think of a single new artistic product that is bundled on first
run.
> The closest I can come up with is retailers who offer purchase deals (like
> pay-per-view cable or the local video store).
>
> Products are bundled because they are undesirable individually. (Undesirable
> in the retail sense of not enough people will buy them.)
>
> Since the premise of this discussion seems to be that IF is, somehow,
> desirable to enough people who can't manage to get all the IF they can
handle
> through free channels or existing bundles (say an unaware market), bundling
> would seem to be shooting down the premise already.
>
> If this is something that should be done, if people want it or they can be
> made to want it, it should be packaged like something people want, not
> apologetically mashed together on one CD as in "Well, we hope you'll find
> something here you'll like."
>
>
How about short story anthologies? I've never seen a _single_ short story as
a stand-alone product (though admittedly, I haven't looked THAT hard). If my
unbderstanding of things is fairly accurate, short stories are always bundled
on THEIR FIRST release. perhaps that's how we should be looking at this.
Jason Compton
Kathy I. Morgan (kmo...@polarnet.com) wrote:
: Where did the $30/price of a hardcover book come from, anyway? I agree
: that it seems to me an outrageous price for a single text adventure in
: today's market. What happened to the $5-$10/price of paperback price
: range?
I, for one, offered that it wasn't possible to market a $5-$10 piece of IF
through mass-market channels and make a profit, because the way you make
profits at $5-$10 a hit is massive massive quantity and low margin, which
IF would not lend itself well to.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Editor-in-Chief, Amiga Report Magazine VP, Legacy Maker Inc.
http://www.cucug.org/ar/ http://www.xnet.com/~jcompton/
If you're gonna cross.. ..better start doing it right.
John Francis
In article <354d4cd4.9189339@news>, Eric O'Dell <er...@gadgetguru.com> wrote:
>On 3 May 1998 05:08:55 GMT, jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton)
>wrote:
>
>>Eric O'Dell (er...@gadgetguru.com) wrote:
>>:
>>: Buy-in price has declined by as much as 50% over the last year, and
>>: may do so again this year.
>>
>>That's actually not true at all. You're confusing power with price again.
>>The buy-in prices for a consumer who wants a PC (and refuses to scrounge
>>through the net or Computer Shopper to save a few bucks along the line)
>>has held pretty constant for years. The machines are different, the price
>>tags stay firmly in place.
>
>I'm not confusing squat. The big news in the industry during the third
>and fourth quarters of 1997 was the introduction of the sub-$1000
>entry-level PC, spearheaded by Monorail. Other companies quickly
>followed suit. Many of these product lines were available in major
>retail outlets, not just through the direct channel. Industry
>projections indicate that we will see entry-level machines in the
>sub-$500 range become commonplace before year's end.
Not to mention that the bar is about to be lowered even further,
as the PDA-class machines are getting powerful enough to warrant
being classed as real computers. And they can be had for as little
as $200. Before I get deluged with email from Psion users - I'm
talking about mass-market here. Palm Pilots or Win/CE.
>What remains more or less constant in price are the cutting-edge
>machines, which have hovered in the $3000 to $3500 range for many
>years and will probably continue to do so. By no stretch of the
>imagination, however, are these machines targeted at the general
>consumer market.
Even these machines are suffering price compression. While a large
part of this can be attributed to Intel (only charging $800 for the
latest and greatest chip, rather than $1300), the fact remains that
the 400Mhz P-II machines (17" monitors, 64Mb RAM, modem, ...) have
hit the streets at an initial price of $2300. To get a 200Mhz MMX
pentium at that price (with only a 15" monitor) I had to wait until
the Pentium-IIs were out.
It is still possible to get the price up to around $3000, but not
much beyond. To spend as much as $3500 you have to go for a system
with multiple CPU slots and/or SCSI RAID systems - not exactly
the home PC. The high-end home PC has been coming down in price
slowly - maybe $100/yr - for at least the last six years. This
year it has suddenly dropped at least another $600. Maybe next
year we'll see the price hit $1999.
--
John Francis jfra...@sgi.com Silicon Graphics, Inc.
(650)933-8295 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd. MS 43U-991
(650)933-4692 (Fax) Mountain View, CA 94043-1389
Unsolicited electronic mail will be subject to a $100 handling fee.
jweinste
g...@pobox.com (Gerry Kevin Wilson) writes:
>Now, the good side:
> 1. Commercial IF means paid, happy, dancing in the street IF writers.
Which means more good IF, which means more happy IF players--or, at least,
players who have some consolation for the fact that they now must pay for
IF.
And just to make this non-theoretical: when I was in college, I wasn't
getting paid for ANY of my writing. I therefore paid equal attention to
all kinds of writing--IF, short stories, Usenet postings, etc. As a
result, I was able to complete my one full-length IF game (Save
Princeton). When I graduated, I got a job at a magazine, and was faced
with a daily choice. I could write something in exchange for the
pleasure of being read, or write something in exchange for the pleasure
of being read PLUS the pleasure of having money to pay for food. As much
as I love writing IF, it wasn't a hard choice.
It's worth noting that most of the people who seem excited by the notion
of commercially successful text-based IF are those of us who have spent a
year or more of our lives creating a work of it. Certainly, there might be
some people who stop writing IF because it becomes financially rewarding,
but I suspect that for most potential IF writers, being able to put food
on the table doing what they love wil be a good thing.
Of course, before we let our passions get too inflamed, it's worth
remembering that this is purely an academic discussion. At the risk of
sounding overly cynical: I've been reading r.a.if for, boy, about seven
or eight years now, and I can remember a whole host of projects that were
going to make IF commerically feasible again. But the Adventions folks got
other jobs, Mike Richards stopped supporting TADS, and the IF-CD project
fell through. I might disagree with Jason Compton about the merits of
commercial text adventures, but I agree with him about the feasibility.
It's quite possible that somebody will some day figure out how to make a
decent profit off text-based IF... but I'd be willing to bet all $20 of
the shareware fees I made in 1997 that it won't be any time soon. And if
it when it happens, the 200 or so people who probably make up the
rec.*.int-fiction-based fan base will will only be a tiny portion of the
buyers.
Hoping to be proved wrong,
Jacob "Cynical Old Man" Weinstein
Jason Compton
jweinste (jwei...@aludra.usc.edu) wrote:
: fell through. I might disagree with Jason Compton about the merits of
: commercial text adventures, but I agree with him about the feasibility.
Sorry, did I make it sound like I didn't think commercial IF was a good
thing? If so, that wasn't my intention. As I imply in a new thread, with
the proper frills, like Infocom-style props, I'd be much more interested
in even existing titles. I just don't think there's any really good way
to make it happen.
jweinste
okbl...@usa.net writes:
>>
>I cannot think of a single new artistic product that is bundled on first run.
>The closest I can come up with is retailers who offer purchase deals (like
>pay-per-view cable or the local video store).
Songs come bundled a dozen or so per compact disk. Magazine articles come
bundled a dozen or so per issue. Newspaper articles come bundled several
dozen per edition.
Still, all that really only supports okblack's point, because a
full-length IF game is more like the things that don't come in
bundles--it's a full-length story that takes more than a few minutes to
experience, and it's therefore more like a movie or a novel than like a
song or an article.
And since what's being advocated in this thread is trying to sell IF to
people who read books, it makes some sense to keep the anology clear. You
pick up a box that says "Fooble, by A. Author" along the spine. On the
cover is the title, a picture, and perhaps a brief blurb. On the back is
more detailed information about the story contained therein, and maybe a
paragraph about the author.
Of course, as I said, this is purely academic discussion. It's an
interesting academic discussion, but an academic one nonetheless. I
suspect that anybody with the drive and market sense to actually get
text-based IF into bookstores is going to have their own opinions about
how to do it.
-Jacob Weinstein