"Interactive Fiction"?
chads...@my-deja.com
fiction" is misleading. Why don't we just call
then "text adventures"?
1. They aren't all just text.
2. They aren't all just adventures.
3. Interactive Fiction sounds so much more
sophisticated.
But the problems with interactive fiction:
1. "interactive". This is a degree, not a boolean
value. With TV, you keep your eyes open and
pointing at the screen. A book, you turn pages
and use your imagination. IF, you may actually
change the story through your decisions.
2. "fiction". What if it is educational? Or take,
for instance, my "pillow" "game" that was entered
in the 99 art show. What is the fiction? Is there
actually interactive *non-fiction*?
I am sure this will throw a monkey wrench into
the machinery, and spark some interesting
responses. That's what I'm here for.
Chad Schultz (chadNO...@yaSPAMhoo.com)
"A piece of your soul goes into every game you
write"
"That would mean that the people of infocom sold
their soul"
"It figures"
-Chad Schultz, talking to himself.
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Aris Katsaris
<chads...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7ijut6$ves$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> But the problems with interactive fiction:
>
> 1. "interactive". This is a degree, not a boolean
> value. With TV, you keep your eyes open and
> pointing at the screen. A book, you turn pages
> and use your imagination. IF, you may actually
> change the story through your decisions.
I don't get it. Where's the problem with this?
> 2. "fiction". What if it is educational? Or take,
> for instance, my "pillow" "game" that was entered
> in the 99 art show. What is the fiction?
There was no real-life exhibit where you took a pillow and slept on it. It
was a fictional event.
On the other hand if we were to call it 'text adventure' where's the
adventure?
>Is there
> actually interactive *non-fiction*?
Perhaps there is. I'd be interested to see what people can come up with.
Aris Katsaris
Andrew Plotkin
> You know, I think that the term "interactive
> fiction" is misleading. Why don't we just call
> then "text adventures"?
> 1. They aren't all just text.
> 2. They aren't all just adventures.
> 3. Interactive Fiction sounds so much more
> sophisticated.
Agreed. (Well, most of them *are* just text, but we've always been able to
keep track of the difference.)
> But the problems with interactive fiction:
> 1. "interactive". This is a degree, not a boolean
> value. With TV, you keep your eyes open and
> pointing at the screen. A book, you turn pages
> and use your imagination. IF, you may actually
> change the story through your decisions.
You use your imagination in any form of art. There's plenty of gradation
of interactivity between different IF works -- but the entire subject
doesn't arise at *all* for books or TV.
(You might say that books are interactive to the extent that you can
decide whether to stop reading, or how fast to read. I might then say that
you're being silly.)
> 2. "fiction". What if it is educational? Or take,
> for instance, my "pillow" "game" that was entered
> in the 99 art show. What is the fiction? Is there
> actually interactive *non-fiction*?
Sure. I've seen simulation and computation programs written in Inform.
However, they're generally not called IF. We lump them into this newsgroup
if they use IF technologies, but as curiosities or "abuses", not
"interactive fiction".
The phrase "interactive fiction" includes everything I mean by "adventure"
anyway. Are you thinking of particular works that are included as "text
adventures" but *excluded* as "interactive fiction"? I can't think of any.
If there aren't any, the current labelling must be working okay.
(And I do find it useful to be able to discuss text games and graphical
games as two kinds of IF.)
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Neil Cerutti
> > Is there
> > actually interactive *non-fiction*?
>
> Perhaps there is. I'd be interested to see what people can come
> up with.
Lists and Lists. The Z-code game-list game. My First Stupid Game.
I'm willing to see if someone can invent another term that is
better than "interactive fiction".
How about:
somewhat-interactive mostly-text mostly-fiction
scripted non-linear multimedia literature
imaginative fabrication
respondent narrative software
Next!
Neil Cerutti
ne...@norwich.edu
David Glasser
> You know, I think that the term "interactive
> fiction" is misleading. Why don't we just call
> then "text adventures"?
Well, the groups' names are rec.arts.int-fiction and
rec.games.int-fiction. Calling them text adventures would require a
change.
Also, IF is a better acronym than TA. "Hey, did you see that latest
piece of T and A?" is not the best way to inquire whether or not
somebody played Spider and Web.
--
David Glasser: gla...@iname.com | raif FAQ: http://come.to/raiffaq/
"It's good to explore the G.U.E. caves / It's good to explore the G.U.E.
caves / You can count all the leaves / You can KILL TROLL WITH SWORD /
You'll get stuck but you won't be bored"-Joe.Mason, rec.arts.int-fiction
Kathleen M. Fischer
> Also, IF is a better acronym than TA. "Hey, did you see that latest
> piece of T and A?" is not the best way to inquire whether or not
> somebody played Spider and Web.
But I bet a lot more people would stop by if we started
advertising "Free T and A here"
Kathleen
--
*******************************************************************
* Kathleen M. Fischer *
* kfis...@greenhouse.nospam.gov (nospam = l l n l) *
** "Don't stop to stomp ants while the elephants are stampeding" **
Roosevelt
> advertising "Free T and A here"
Yeah, but the r*if newsgroups would need a new addy.
Possibly alt.sex.int-fiction
Roosevelt
Adam J. Thornton
David Glasser <gla...@iname.com> wrote:
>Also, IF is a better acronym than TA. "Hey, did you see that latest
>piece of T and A?" is not the best way to inquire whether or not
>somebody played Spider and Web.
Once again, I return to my touchstone, _The Incredible Erotic Adventures Of
Stiffy Makane_.
Adam
--
ad...@princeton.edu
"My eyes say their prayers to her / Sailors ring her bell / Like a moth
mistakes a light bulb / For the moon and goes to hell." -- Tom Waits
Adam J. Thornton
Neil Cerutti <ne...@norwich.edu> wrote:
>How about:
>
> somewhat-interactive mostly-text mostly-fiction
> scripted non-linear multimedia literature
> imaginative fabrication
> respondent narrative software
>Next!
How about:
YOUR MAMMA!
Next!
Joe Mason
>In article <1dsh1zi.hhd...@usol-209-186-16-221.uscom.com>,
>David Glasser <gla...@iname.com> wrote:
>>Also, IF is a better acronym than TA. "Hey, did you see that latest
>>piece of T and A?" is not the best way to inquire whether or not
>>somebody played Spider and Web.
>
>Once again, I return to my touchstone, _The Incredible Erotic Adventures Of
>Stiffy Makane_.
Only one stone?
Joe
--
"Think hard and long about what your favorite book is. Once identified, read
it a paragraph at a time. Then after having read the paragraph, read each
sentence. See the way the sentences interrelate. Then, read the words..."
-- Mike Berlyn, on learning to write
Andrew Plotkin
> Adam J. Thornton <ad...@princeton.edu> wrote:
> >In article <1dsh1zi.hhd...@usol-209-186-16-221.uscom.com>,
> >David Glasser <gla...@iname.com> wrote:
> >>Also, IF is a better acronym than TA. "Hey, did you see that latest
> >>piece of T and A?" is not the best way to inquire whether or not
> >>somebody played Spider and Web.
> >
> >Once again, I return to my touchstone, _The Incredible Erotic Adventures Of
> >Stiffy Makane_.
> Only one stone?
Hey, as long as you can touch it.
LucFrench
>The phrase "interactive fiction" includes everything I mean by "adventure"
>anyway. Are you thinking of particular works that are included as "text
>adventures" but *excluded* as "interactive fiction"? I can't think of any.
>If there aren't any, the current labelling must be working okay.
Well, CASK comes to mind. And if Coming Home was Interactive Fiction, then I've
lost faith in all labeling systems.
Thanks
Luc "Dewey" French
Paul E. Bell
You have got a point, there, if this is an "Interactive Fiction" art
gallery, then the "art" displayed there should have a story to it,
however short. Just as there are two word poems, there could possibly
be two-location IF.
How about this one: There was a portal, it opened, and I was swallowed
up by it. That's short, it's about a single object, it could even be in
one location only. It's fiction, since a portal doesn't exist (at
least, to my knowledge).
I don't know, now. If I submit a door, the door should tell a story.
This might require some other locations, people, stuff to make it work
right and hold the suspension of disbelief.
Now, if the museum were a museum of interesting _objects_,as used in IF,
then different constraints would govern.
Which brings me to wonder if 1) we are too nitpicky (both the writers
and the one running the museum), or 2) if the name of the museum should
be changed to reflect the actual constraints of the competition.
Oh well, I would enjoy it with or without puzzles.
Paul E. Bell
--
_____
| | _ \ _ _ |/ _ _(
| | (_X (_/`/\ (_) (_` |\(_) (_) (_|_) (/`
)
Paul E. Bell
I believe that Interactive Fiction is the best name for the newsgroup,
and for the results of our efforts (with the small exceptions you
mentioned).
I think that the whole problem (as this relates to the Interactive Art
Museum, at any rate) is that the museum, in it's definition of
"interactive art" has left the "fiction" out of it. I left another
message (which has not shown up on my end yet, as my news server is
having problems) on here regarding that.
I believe that relates to this discussion, as Chad's question would seem
to reflect the confusion on the part of some in the NG (not that Chad is
confused, since he answered his own question - it seemd a bit
rhetorical).
An Inform/TADS/Hugo/etc. game can (and examples abound) be written which
has not plot, no branching, etc., and is merely a playground to romp
around in. I would not say that The Museum of Inform, or The Majic
Toyshop should be considered Interactive Fiction, in the sense of a
story, but they do describe fictional places, and so _are_ fiction, and
_are_ interactive.
Describing a place is, perhaps, to a greater degree, Interactive
Fiction, than describing an unusual, interactive, mechanical sculpture.
At this rate, I will be condoning the "no puzzles rule" of the Art
Museum :)
At any rate, Interactive Fiction has many levels, and, I believe, is an
art form in and of itself.
That said, if this NG is about that art form, and the peices that go
together to make up that art form, then the NG _should_ be called
Interactive Fiction, as nothing else fits (a text adventure does not
_need_ to be interactive to be a text adventure).
Knight37
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@netcom.com> wrote
> You use your imagination in any form of art. There's plenty of gradation
> of interactivity between different IF works -- but the entire subject
> doesn't arise at *all* for books or TV.
What about those pop-up books and scratch-n-sniff books? ;P
knight37
Daniel Barkalow
> Now, if the museum were a museum of interesting _objects_,as used in IF,
> then different constraints would govern.
And in this room we have the box of tools from Spider and Web, the chest
of dirt from Photopia, the axe from Adventure, and the anemometer from
Jigsaw...
Of course, having read _Travels in Hyperreality_, by Umberto Eco,
recently, I have to wonder, would such things be the actual objects,
copies, or fakes?
-Iabervon
*This .sig unintentionally changed*
Andrew Plotkin
The tools in _Spider and Web_ are copies, I'm afraid.
The originals were stolen off my hard drive in October of 1997, and
replaced with exact clones with identical memories.
Six of one from my point of view, of course, but the poor dears were quite
paralyzed with the existential collywobbles for weeks.
Graham Nelson
Daniel Barkalow <URL:mailto:iabe...@iabervon.mit.edu> wrote:
> And in this room we have the box of tools from Spider and Web, the chest
> of dirt from Photopia, the axe from Adventure, and the anemometer from
> Jigsaw...
The anemometer was stolen from the flagpole at the top of the
Oxford nuclear physics building (possibly the ugliest building
in the world, ladies and gentlemen, and I've been to Berlin and
Washington DC).
--
Graham Nelson | gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk | Oxford, United Kingdom
Philip W. Darnowsky
: Six of one from my point of view, of course, but the poor dears were quite
: paralyzed with the existential collywobbles for weeks.
I had that once, and my doctor gave me this ointment for it. Cleared it
right up.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Darnowsky pdar...@spameggsbaconandspam.qis.net
Remove spam, eggs, bacon, spam, and dot to reply.
The IBM Pollyanna Principle:
Computers should work. People should think.
Stephen Granade
> The anemometer was stolen from the flagpole at the top of the
> Oxford nuclear physics building (possibly the ugliest building
> in the world, ladies and gentlemen, and I've been to Berlin and
> Washington DC).
It may be something about nuclear physics buildings -- the one here at
Duke is a large square concrete bunker which is sunk into the side of
a hill.
Stephen
--
Stephen Granade | Interested in adventure games?
sgra...@phy.duke.edu | Visit About.com's IF Page
Duke University, Physics Dept | http://interactfiction.about.com
Fraser Wilson
>Graham Nelson <gra...@gnelson.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> The anemometer was stolen from the flagpole at the top of the
>> Oxford nuclear physics building (possibly the ugliest building
>> in the world, ladies and gentlemen, and I've been to Berlin and
>> Washington DC).
>It may be something about nuclear physics buildings -- the one here at
>Duke is a large square concrete bunker which is sunk into the side of
>a hill.
Well, who wants to do Nuclear Physics in an endearing little
cottage? You'd never be taken seriously at conferences.
"Our building is a concrete cube, and it's uglier than a 50s housing
project. You should see how butch the security system is."
"Really? We have lovely sunflower curtains in our tea room, you know."
Fraser.
(nothing beats the local government buildings in Mountain View)
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Well, who wants to do Nuclear Physics in an endearing little
> cottage? You'd never be taken seriously at conferences.
>
> "Our building is a concrete cube, and it's uglier than a 50s housing
> project. You should see how butch the security system is."
>
> "Really? We have lovely sunflower curtains in our tea room, you know."
"Simply fascinating. Of course, our own Nuclear Physics building is
purely fictional, you know. We contemplated entering it in an
interactive art show at one point until we realised it isn't terribly
interactive..."
-- jonadab
Username in email address is dyslexic; correct to jonadab
Jurgen Lerch)
Jonadab the Unsightly One <bad...@bright.net> wrote:
> Fraser Wilson <fra...@sinopsis.com> wrote:
>> Well, who wants to do Nuclear Physics in an endearing little
>> cottage? You'd never be taken seriously at conferences.
>> "Our building is a concrete cube, and it's uglier than a 50s housing
>> project. You should see how butch the security system is."
>> "Really? We have lovely sunflower curtains in our tea room, you know."
> "Simply fascinating. Of course, our own Nuclear Physics building is
> purely fictional, you know. We contemplated entering it in an
> interactive art show at one point until we realised it isn't terribly
> interactive..."
And it probably has quite a lot of puzzles I suspect ;-) .
SCNR!
Ad Astra!
JuL
--
ler...@uni-duesseldorf.de / Ich darf mit zweierlei Ma"s messen.
J"urgen "JuL" Lerch / Du nicht.
http://www-public.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de/~lerchj/