TADS vs. Inform comparison
Brian Schell
out in the early 80's) but I'm just now getting the urge to create some IF.
I've already got a few good concepts and ideas worked out, I'm just not sure
on which engine to use to implement them.
I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times on this group, but I didn't
find it in the FAQ or any recent postings so here goes... Is there a site
anywhere that compares features and flexibilty between TADS and INFORM? I
had a bit of experience with TADS three or four years ago, and I see that
it's come a long way since then. I'm not really well informed about INFORM,
but did play a lot of Infocom games way back when.
As a second question, I see that TADS-HTML looks promising, but doesn't
actually allow internet-based play. Is there an engine that allows play on a
webserver? I really don't want to get into the multiplayer side of
things(MUDS, etc.), but I might like to make my games playable on the
internet.
Thanks for any suggestions!
----------------------------------------------------------
Brian Schell
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Wendy Shaffer
<brians...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times on this group, but I didn't
> find it in the FAQ or any recent postings so here goes... Is there a site
> anywhere that compares features and flexibilty between TADS and INFORM? I
> had a bit of experience with TADS three or four years ago, and I see that
> it's come a long way since then. I'm not really well informed about
> INFORM,
> but did play a lot of Infocom games way back when.
I'm by no means an expert, and the only system that I'm much familiar
with is Inform. But my general impression has been that both systems
are flexible enough that there's little or nothing that you can do in
one that you can't do in the other with a bit of work. There are
undoubtedly things that are easier or harder in one language or the
other, but someone else would probably be better qualified to say what
those things are.
You might want to take a look at Roger Firth's Cloak of Darkness page:
http://homepages.tesco.net/~roger.firth/cloak/index.html
It shows how to implement the same short sample game in several
different languages. The game doesn't use any really advanced features,
but it can give you an idea of what if "feels" like to use each
language.
> As a second question, I see that TADS-HTML looks promising, but doesn't
> actually allow internet-based play. Is there an engine that allows play
> on a
> webserver? I really don't want to get into the multiplayer side of
> things(MUDS, etc.), but I might like to make my games playable on the
> internet.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions!
There's a Z-Code (Inform) interpreter written in Java (called ZPlet,
I believe.) You can use that to make Inform games playable on the web.
---wendy
lysseus
news:wshaffer-D8A68B...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> In article <39be7d4e$0$34964$6dae...@news.infinet.com>, "Brian Schell"
> <brians...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times on this group, but I
didn't
> > find it in the FAQ or any recent postings so here goes... Is there a
site
> > anywhere that compares features and flexibilty between TADS and INFORM?
I
> > had a bit of experience with TADS three or four years ago, and I see
that
> > it's come a long way since then. I'm not really well informed about
> > INFORM,
> > but did play a lot of Infocom games way back when.
>
> I'm by no means an expert, and the only system that I'm much familiar
> with is Inform. But my general impression has been that both systems
> are flexible enough that there's little or nothing that you can do in
> one that you can't do in the other with a bit of work. There are
> undoubtedly things that are easier or harder in one language or the
> other, but someone else would probably be better qualified to say what
> those things are.
There are, of course, substantial differences between TADS 2 and TADS 3 that
make certain generalisations difficult. The old chestnut about the Inform
parser being more accessible is something TADS 3 dispenses with. The idea
that Inform is easier to port to foreign languages also falls by the wayside
with TADS 3.
There are significant model world developments in TADS 3 that outdistance
those produced by any of its current extensions and library replacements,
and which provide an author many of the features built into the Inform
library and several that are not easily implemented in Inform.
TADS 2, of course, has advanced significantly beyond most of the FAQs, but
lacks the flexibility of parser enhancement that Inform possesses, as well
as foreign language translation ease. The TADS 2 world model, despite the
sophistication of its parser and command execution mechanism, is somewhat
underdeveloped and has been fortified by a brace of library extensions and
replacements.
Putting those aspects aside, however, the most significant difference
between the two systems lies in the implementation philosophy of their
libraries. Inform is more procedural in its approach, relying on functions
to determine the behaviours of game objects. While it provides a means of
hiding data, which neither TADS 2 nor TADS 3 support, it fails to make use
of object-oriented generalisation and extension principles (Neither TADS nor
Inform support method overloading or polymorphism except through somewhat
convoluted mechanisms). The advantages for Inform is that its library
produces smaller executables, something TADS cannot easily match because of
the increasing tendency for objects to define their behaviours, decoupling
themselves from the library mechanism.
For TADS there has also been an increasing tendency toward class extension
and generalisation (i.e. object composition). TADS 3 takes further advantage
of its multiple inheritance capabilities. Many Inform authors have begun to
create class libraries, but tend to run aground because of the limitations
of the memory capacity of the Z-machine. Platypus library, using Gluxle, has
begun a new venture, defining a class library, yet its classes fail to
define behaviours, again, leaving this up to the library. Yet TADS suffers
from its lack of data-hiding, all attributes and methods are publicly
accessible, which increases access speed, but makes it impossible for an
author to hide theimplementation internals of their objects.
Despite both their shortcomings, however, these systems provide a rich
vehicle for any aspiring IF author, and an author with programming
experience would do well to explore both options. Like Plato and Aristotle
they cover the breadth and depth of IF, everything else is but a footnote...
--Kevin
Tina
Both systems are probably about equivalent in terms of number of benefits
and drawbacks.
My personal suggestion is that you download both, make a couple rooms and
objects in each that tested, work, and see which one you're most comfortable
with. I actually like both, but find Inform a bit more intuitive to work
with, which I think is purely a matter of programming style.
My caveat, however, is that I have not produced a /finished/ game in
either.
Neil Cerutti
The most disturbing thing about choosing a text adventure
programming environment is: once you have finally learned enough
about one of them to have an informed judgement, it's too late to
switch to something else -- you've put in too much time on it.
Tina's suggestion is very good.
Read Roger Firth's _Cloak of Darkness_.
<URL:http://homepages.tesco.net/~roger.firth/cloak/index.html>
It's the quickest way to see the superficial differences between
the design systems.
After that, create your own Cloak of Darkness. Make the spec for
it as simple a game as you can (but including at least one
non-trivial puzzle) The simplest way to do this is to write a
short sample transcript of what a play session should read like.
Now, download and set up the design systems you're considering.
Code your game in each one.
You'll find out: how good you are with the documentation; if the
world model makes sense to you; how difficult it is to get the
system up and running; how convenient the development process is.
Taking those steps will help you make a good decision.
--
Neil Cerutti <cer...@together.net>
Linux on board. It is now safe to turn on your computer.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Carl Muckenhoupt
<brians...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I'm not really well informed about INFORM,
>but did play a lot of Infocom games way back when.
It may be worth pointing out, in case it isn't clear, that although
Inform produces the same kind of game file as Infocom, Inform is not
the development system used by Infocom, and the standard Inform
library has many behavioral differences from Infocom's games (which
didn't use a standard library at all, but did tend to share code).
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Dan Schmidt
| The most disturbing thing about choosing a text adventure
| programming environment is: once you have finally learned enough
| about one of them to have an informed judgement, it's too late to
| switch to something else -- you've put in too much time on it.
Well, you can switch to something else for your next game. I wrote my
first game in Inform and have since switched to TADS. But yeah, you
do get locked in for a little while.
--
Dan Schmidt | http://www.dfan.org
Honest Bob CD now available! | http://www.dfan.org/honestbob/cd.html
R. Alan Monroe
>The most disturbing thing about choosing a text adventure
>programming environment is: once you have finally learned enough
>about one of them to have an informed judgement, it's too late to
>switch to something else -- you've put in too much time on it.
Pun intended? :^)
Have fun
Alan
Darius Katz
brians...@yahoo.com says...
> I'm an old timer (I remember waiting for the new Scott Adams games to come
> out in the early 80's) but I'm just now getting the urge to create some IF.
> I've already got a few good concepts and ideas worked out, I'm just not sure
> on which engine to use to implement them.
>
> I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times on this group, but I didn't
> find it in the FAQ or any recent postings so here goes... Is there a site
> anywhere that compares features and flexibilty between TADS and INFORM? I
> had a bit of experience with TADS three or four years ago, and I see that
> it's come a long way since then. I'm not really well informed about INFORM,
> but did play a lot of Infocom games way back when.
>
One more thing worth mentioning is that games made in Inform are playable
on PDAs such as Palm and Visor (handheld computers).
TADS games cannot be played on PalmOS (yet?).
I don't know if it's important to you, but it shouldn't be neglected as
more and more people are playing IF on their handhelds. (I do!)
-- Darius
Ashley Price
I must first of all admit to not seeing the post that started this thread -
but I would ask why isn't Hugo being mentioned?
Okay, I haven't tried TADS or Inform but I am writing my first adventure
with Hugo and finding it (relatively) easy to get to grips with. Most of the
programming is (reasonably) logical and makes writing an adventure game a
breeze.
All I would say is that the manual is not the clearest I have read - but
Kent Tessman (he who wrote the Hugo system) is working on an "introduction"
as a companion to the main manual. However, this does not hold me back and
shouldn't put others off trying it. With the sample game and the source code
for Spur, Guilty Bastards, (Hugo) Zork, etc., all readily available it soon
becomes clear what things do.
Plus many different versions are available across many formats.
So give it a go.
For more information, go to the site:
Then click on Software and then Hugo.
Ashley
SteveG
>> Is there a site
>> anywhere that compares features and flexibilty between TADS and INFORM?
I can't remember if anyone's yet mentioned Dan Shiovitz's essay
comparing TADS and Inform
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~dbs/tads-vs-inform.html
[snip]
-- SteveG
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