DOCTOR is HALF HUMAN
J2rider
>>>>Prove it.
>>>
The proof is in the pudding.
1-he's no longer dizzy
2-he realized he has two hearts
3-he holds a conversation with Grace
4-he remembers who Grace is
5-he knew Da Vinci had a cold when he drew a picture
6-he knows he is not fibulating badly and knows it is not an echo
7-he remembers Puccini and was with him before he died and recalls how the
musical was finished, "It was so sad."
8-he knows he was dead too long this time and that the anesthetic almost
destroyed the regen process
9-knows has 13 lives
10-knows he can come back to the dead
11-knows Grace dreamt she can hold back death (either psi powers or future or
past knowledge)
12-knows Grace will do great things
13-recalls father on Gallifrey, recalls the name Gallifrey
14-NOTE AT THIS POINT: If anything he is coming out of or is out of fully, his
rengenerative state. The Master confirms most of what the Doc says and finds
out that the Doctor is half human. "Look, I'm no saint..."
15-He recalls his name.
16-"The Doctor is half human. No wonder."
17-He recalls the Master.
18-He knows about the Eye of Harmony.
19-He knows the TARDIS and what it means.
20-Recalls Skaro and Daleks
21-He knows he needs an atomic clock.
22-"I am a Time Lord"
23-"There will be nothing left."
24-He also talks about "humans" as if he doesn't consider himself one of them.
25-he tells another man that he is half human on his mother's side (and he is
clearly in his right mind or as near the Doctor can ever get to that)---this
might be a lie or a ploy but if fits in with what the Master says earlier and
what the Doctor said.
Aw well, you will have to find some other explanation for not fitting in the TV
Movie and what it says into your version of DOCTOR WHO. Like it or not, the
Doctor is half human.
I suppose one thing can be what some fan wrote about: the Doctor used Earthling
eyes (yeah right, as if that is not harder to believe than just accepting the
truth) to fool his enemies. What else? The Eye is not really in the Tardis,
this is some kind of fake. Sure and let's change TRIAL while we're at it---that
really wasn't the Matrix on that giant ship in space was it. In fact, the ship
is not where the Trial is...they were just trying to throw us all off by
showing us that starship in space. The Trial was on Gallifrey where a rebellion
(snigger snigger) was going on. Okay I am sorry for being so , I don't know,
pedantic. Heeh heee.
Also wasn't a youthful hyper Doctor who smiles, is bright faced and cheery much
more uplifting than the Darkness that was the 7th Doc in his last season and in
the novels...also more fun. Take a page from Jose Chung of X FILES and
MILLENNIUM, and "...don't be so dark."
Rayctate
>TV
>Movie and what it says into your version of DOCTOR WHO. Like it or not, the
>Doctor is half human.
Yep. Tried this. It never works, J2. These doubting Thomases and Tammies
will continue to deny reality.
>I suppose one thing can be what some fan wrote about: the Doctor used
>Earthling
>eyes (yeah right, as if that is not harder to believe than just accepting the
>truth) to fool his enemies.
As I stated before, the Doctor has genes that code for human eyes. That is why
the fifth Doctor's eyesight is defective: subject to mutation. Even the Master
at the end of his regenerative cycle can see perfectly. No Time Lord save the
Doctor wore glasses in the series. Even if you consider, Shada canon, Sareyaven
discards his glasses when his memory returns--just like Superman when he
became an amnesiac.
If the "moment was prepared for," The Doctor's eyes would have been 20/20.
Instead, he's far-sighted and needs glasses when viewing things close-up. The
series provides plenty such loop-holes, but not one loom-hole, to foreshadow
the Doctor being revealed as a half-human.
>Also wasn't a youthful hyper Doctor who >smiles, is bright faced and cheery
much
>more uplifting than the Darkness that was >the 7th Doc in his last season and
in
>the novels...
Actually, the seventh Doctor is pretty darn cheerful even in Remembrance of the
Daleks. He for instance uses his umbrella to slide down a line to the Dalek
ship. He builds something that didn't work on Spiradon but did work on earth,
grins and says "It works! It actually works!" He really only becomes a
complete and utter bastard in the Virgin novels.
Ray
"I'm half-human, on my mother's side."--The eighth Doctor
Dangermouse
J2rider <j2r...@aol.com> wrote
> The proof is in the pudding.
>
> 1-he's no longer dizzy
Only at that moment
> 2- he realized he has two hearts
> 3-he holds a conversation with Grace
> 4-he remembers who Grace is
So?
> 5-he knew Da Vinci had a cold when he drew a picture
He says it - there's a difference.
> 6-he knows he is not fibulating badly and knows it is not an echo
So?
> 7-he remembers Puccini and was with him before he died and recalls how
the
> musical was finished, "It was so sad."
Again, he says it, but there's no independent confirmation - his memories
could still be jumbled.
> 8-he knows he was dead too long this time and that the anesthetic almost
> destroyed the regen process
Which proves he's still confused - Time Lords can't regenerate *after*
they're dead.
> 9-knows has 13 lives
So?
> 10-knows he can come back to the dead
And he's wrong - he can come back from near-death.
> 11-knows Grace dreamt she can hold back death (either psi powers or
future or
> past knowledge)
Or an easy guess to make about a lifesaving surgeon.
> 12-knows Grace will do great things
Says it - he could just be buttering her up
> 13-recalls father on Gallifrey, recalls the name Gallifrey
Father? Again, it looks like his memories are scrambled.
> 14-NOTE AT THIS POINT: If anything he is coming out of or is out of
fully, his
> rengenerative state. The Master confirms most of what the Doc says and
finds
> out that the Doctor is half human. "Look, I'm no saint..."
The Master apparently having never known this despite having read the Doc's
biodata before. In other words, he's fooled by the fact that his own mind
is fucked up form being stuck cohabiting a human brain.
> 15-He recalls his name.
He recalls he calld "Doctor" - not a name. And he heard it a lot at the
hospital...
> 16-"The Doctor is half human. No wonder."
See 14
> 17-He recalls the Master.
Who was indirectly responsible for killing him - no wonder.
> 18-He knows about the Eye of Harmony.
And thinks it's in the TARDIS rather than on Gallifrey
> 19-He knows the TARDIS and what it means.
> 20-Recalls Skaro and Daleks
> 21-He knows he needs an atomic clock.
So?
> 22-"I am a Time Lord"
Which contradicts what he said before. And after this point the only haf
human reference is the distracting wind-up to Wagg, obviously because he's
thinking "what the fuck did I say earlier" and is trying to re-establish
the truth to Grace as well.
From this point he's probably stable. But...
> Aw well, you will have to find some other explanation for not fitting in
the TV
> Movie and what it says into your version of DOCTOR WHO. Like it or not,
the
> Doctor is half human.
No he isn't. Well, the 8th might be, but the rest certainly aren't.
--
"This path has been placed before you; the choice to take it is yours
alone"
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Mansion/4845/
Daibhid Cheinnedelh
j2r...@aol.com (J2rider) wrote:
>The Eye is not really in the Tardis,
> this is some kind of fake. Sure and let's change TRIAL while we're at
>it
Well, why not? I mean, since we're changing Three Doctors, so the Eye
isn't a black hole on Gallifrey. Or maybe the Time Lords let him borrow
it, and figured their TARDISes could do without power for a while. Or
maybe it's a different Eye of Harmony. I mean if the greatest steller
engineer in history is famed in song and story for creating a tame black
hole, I'm sure the Doctor could knock one up after Survival (or would
this be the same thing as "some kind of fake").
--
Dave, who likes the TV Movie, but doesn't think it all makes sense.
The opinions above are a product of my memes and
do not necessarily correspond to my own.
Libroid of EU Skiffysoc http://www.ed.ac.uk/~sesoc
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
David Brider
>As I stated before, the Doctor has genes that code for human eyes. That is
why
>the fifth Doctor's eyesight is defective: subject to mutation. Even the
Master
>at the end of his regenerative cycle can see perfectly. No Time Lord save
the
>Doctor wore glasses in the series...
Excuse me, but how many Time Lords were we introduced to in the series? Not
enough to make this sort of argument from silence in any way meaningful,
I'll wager. And how do you know that Flavia didn't have a nice pair of
reading glasses but used them *just* for reading and not for talking to the
Master?
David.
Matt Michael
Dangermouse wrote in message <01befb61$ad7b6fe0$LocalHost@lgwujvnl>...
>No he isn't. Well, the 8th might be, but the rest certainly aren't.
My theory was that the Doctor started off as entirely Time Lord, but as he
leaves Gallifrey and travels through the universe his biodata becomes
corrupted each time he regenerates. Away from Gallifrey, Time Lord
augmentations (and it is suggested that their bodies are augmented - the
"Rassilon Imprimature") start to break down. The 13th Doctor (Peter
Cushing?) is entirely human. The 8th Doctor, halfway through his life
cycle, is half-human. The 9th Doctor will be more human, the 7th Doctor was
less...
This is also (sort of) supported (in a roundabout way) by the fact that his
regenerations are caused by less and less serious injuries. The first is
caused by extreme (400+ years) age, exacerbated by Mondas' power drain; the
second is forced by the Time Lords. The third is caused by massive
radiation poisoning; the fourth by irrepairable injuries sustained by a
great fall (cf. the 3rd Doctor's survival in "Paradise of Death", suggesting
he was hardier); the fifth by an illness that is fatal to humans (suggesting
the Doctor's physionomy is getting more similar to a human's, cf. "Doctor
Who and the Silurians"); the sixth by a severe fractured skull (?); the
seventh by a hearts attack.
matt
J2rider
<<<Actually, the seventh Doctor is pretty darn cheerful even in Remembrance of
the
Daleks. He for instance uses his umbrella to slide down a line to the Dalek
ship. He builds something that didn't work on Spiradon but did work on earth,
grins and says "It works! It actually works!" He really only becomes a
complete and utter bastard in the Virgin novels.
>>>>>
I agree with you here. You are right! Thanks for your reply.
J2rider
> 1-he's no longer dizzy>>
WRONG! He's dizzy in the waiting room and perhaps a bit in the car but by the
time he says this to Grace, he is NOT dizzy.
J2rider
> 2- he realized he has two hearts
> 3-he holds a conversation with Grace
> 4-he remembers who Grace is
>>>
<<So?>>>>>
So this proves he was telling her facts that were true about his past (as
anything can be true in DOCTOR WHO--I wouldn't be surprised if we find out he's
an avacado from the dawn of another universe somewhere down the line)--AND that
means or may mean (granted) that all those truths are as true as his being half
human and recalling his dad, Gallifrey, and his mom being human. :)
J2rider
> 6-he knows he is not fibulating badly and knows it is not an echo
<<So?>>>
So? This proves he is in his right state of mind and not in a regen crisis.
J2rider
,<<Which proves he's still confused - Time Lords can't regenerate *after*
they're dead.>>>>
That may be true but figuratively, all the Docs have "died" as they
regenerate. The Fourth Doctor certainly is not still alive in the figurative
sense, literally the Doctor is alive but the Fourth, Sixth, etc, are dead...
J2rider
<<<Who was indirectly responsible for killing him - no wonder.
>>>>
Where? How? What movie were you watching? Oh perhaps for diverting him to this
spot but that doesn't mean he would remember the name of the Master (I know not
his name but as far as we are concerned, it is).
So why would he recall all this true information and not the info about his mom
being from Earth. Huh? HUH? HUHHHUHHH?
J2rider
<<<And thinks it's in the TARDIS rather than on Gallifrey
>>>
Apparently it's been moved or this is a "trick" Eye or something. But the
Master and the Doc call it the Eye. Oh but you are thinking maybe the Master
is going bonkers too and not in his right mind. Right? Perhaps.
J2rider
<<<The Master apparently having never known this despite having read the Doc's
biodata before. In other words, he's fooled by the fact that his own mind
is fucked up form being stuck cohabiting a human brain.
>>>
Biodatas can be fooled with, indeed as granted, can be eye implants.
J2rider
<<He recalls he calld "Doctor" - not a name. And he heard it a lot at the
hospital...>>>
Heard what from who? That he is the Doctor? Or just the word "doctor"? Where
did he hear this? And also if he did, how come Grace doesn't deduce that he is
the Doctor. Please, get real and accept it. Stop trying to loom it all up!
J2rider
Dangermouse wrote in message <01befb61$ad7b6fe0$LocalHost@lgwujvnl>...
>No he isn't. Well, the 8th might be, but the rest certainly aren't.
<<<My theory was that the Doctor started off as entirely Time Lord, but as he
leaves Gallifrey and travels through the universe his biodata becomes
corrupted each time he regenerates. Away from Gallifrey, Time Lord
augmentations (and it is suggested that their bodies are augmented - the
"Rassilon Imprimature") start to break down. The 13th Doctor (Peter
Cushing?) is entirely human. The 8th Doctor, halfway through his life
cycle, is half-human. The 9th Doctor will be more human, the 7th Doctor was
less...This is also (sort of) supported (in a roundabout way) by the fact that
his
regenerations are caused by less and less serious injuries. The first is
caused by extreme (400+ years) age, exacerbated by Mondas' power drain; the
second is forced by the Time Lords. The third is caused by massive
radiation poisoning; the fourth by irrepairable injuries sustained by a
great fall (cf. the 3rd Doctor's survival in "Paradise of Death", suggesting
he was hardier); the fifth by an illness that is fatal to humans (suggesting
the Doctor's physionomy is getting more similar to a human's, cf. "Doctor
Who and the Silurians"); the sixth by a severe fractured skull (?); the
seventh by a hearts attack.
matt
>>>>>>>.
There is really no proof for a lot of this but it is nicely put.
Also note that most other Time Lords we've seen regenerate, don't have the same
problem as the Doctor...his half human side causing trouble...
J2rider
<<Which contradicts what he said before. And after this point the only haf
human reference is the distracting wind-up to Wagg, obviously because he's
thinking "what the fuck did I say earlier" and is trying to re-establish
the truth to Grace as well.>>>>
You are wrong again. Spock is half human but almost always calls himself a
Vulcan. The Doc, for better reasons than Spock may have needed to hide that he
was a weaker race or in part a weaker race in the eyes of some of his enemies.
The Doc may have been half human all along but for some reason wanted it
hidden.
J2rider
human reference is the distracting wind-up to Wagg, obviously because he's
thinking "what the fuck did I say earlier" and is trying to re-establish
the truth to Grace as well.>>>>
Wrong. There is that EYE thing which opens only for Chang Lee and Grace...and
obviously the Doctor. :) :) :)
J2rider
<<<No he isn't. Well, the 8th might be, but the rest certainly aren't.
>>>
You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine. But the Doc never states that
he is not human in the show, nor does he state he is fully alien. "Please don't
call me human," and Harry's look at the Doc when he and the Doc are called
human, "Well, I am anyway," but the Doc says nothing.
He also talks about humans (as the 8th and 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th do BUT
NOT the 1st or the 2nd) as the 8th Doctor when referring to them which proves
he doesn't call himself human even though he is half human himself (like
Spock).
Jonathan Blum
David Brider <da...@dwjbrider.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Rayctate wrote in message <19990909234259...@ng-fk1.aol.com>...
>>As I stated before, the Doctor has genes that code for human eyes.
>>That is why the fifth Doctor's eyesight is defective: subject to
>>mutation. Even the Master at the end of his regenerative cycle can see
>>perfectly. No Time Lord save the Doctor wore glasses in the series...
>Excuse me, but how many Time Lords were we introduced to in the series? Not
>enough to make this sort of argument from silence in any way meaningful,
>I'll wager.
Especially since Chronotis wears reading glasses, IIRC.
Regards,
Jon Blum
Brett O'Callaghan
Hey, do you think you could set up your newsreading software to quote
in the correct fashion? It's very difficult to read your messages
when they are so non-standard.
Byeeeee.
--
Doctor Who Database for W95/98/NT - http://www.cbl.com.au/~boc/
Rayctate
>
I already covered this, Mr. B. in my original reply.
Blake
jb...@zipper.zip.com.au (Jonathan Blum) wrote:
> In article <7raouu$o9c$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> David Brider <da...@dwjbrider.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
fk1.aol.com>...
>
> >>As I stated before, the Doctor has genes that code for human eyes.
> >>That is why the fifth Doctor's eyesight is defective: subject to
> >>mutation. Even the Master at the end of his regenerative cycle can
> >>see perfectly. No Time Lord save the Doctor wore glasses in the
> >>series...
>
> >Excuse me, but how many Time Lords were we introduced to in the
> >series? Not enough to make this sort of argument from silence in
> >any way meaningful, I'll wager.
>
It's implied Chronotis was the Doctor at the end.
M. Blake
--
History is not half human.
I. Inayat
>leaves Gallifrey and travels through the universe his biodata becomes
>corrupted each time he regenerates. Away from Gallifrey, Time Lord
>augmentations (and it is suggested that their bodies are augmented - the>
>"Rassilon Imprimature") start to break down. The 13th Doctor (Peter
>Cushing?) is entirely human. The 8th Doctor, halfway through his life
>cycle, is half-human. The 9th Doctor will be more human, the 7th Doctor
was
>less...
....Which would assume that the Doctor was originally human, before he
became a Time Lord (or that the Gallifreyan genotype is identical to human).
We don't have any evidence on whether another Time Lord would revert to
their original species, or whether the two species are identical.
Alternatively, if it's exposure to humans that causes the breakdown, 2nd to
3rd or 7th to 8th wouldn't add any extra biodata, and he should have some
Alzarian and Trakenite in the mix.....(4th to 5th). Still doesn't explain
'on my mother's side'.
Hmm...and why 'half-human on my mother's side'? If his biodata's breaking
down, surely he shouldn't be aware of which parts of it are being broken
down..... And there's the First's suggestions he's human....
>This is also (sort of) supported (in a roundabout way) by the fact that his
>regenerations are caused by less and less serious injuries. The first is
>caused by extreme (400+ years) age, exacerbated by Mondas' power drain;
>the second is forced by the Time Lords.
(Thanks to Terrance, this is an assumption. We're not too sure why the 2nd
regenerated.)
> The third is caused by massive radiation poisoning;
(and/or by fatal gunshot wound)
> the fourth by irrepairable injuries sustained by a
>great fall (cf. the 3rd Doctor's survival in "Paradise of Death",
suggesting
>he was hardier);
> the fifth by an illness that is fatal to humans (suggesting
>the Doctor's physionomy is getting more similar to a human's, cf. "Doctor
>Who and the Silurians");
Really? I thought it was because he'd contracted an illness that his
'natural' healing couldn't deal with because it attacked the whole body (re:
'The Invisible Enemy')
We know spectrox toxciamea(sp?) is fatal to humans; we don't know how it
affects other species (such as Gallifreyans)
>the sixth by a severe fractured skull (?);
We've never found out what caused this regeneration; the Doctor's never
talked about it.....
>the seventh by a hearts attack.
Not quite: cauterisation of part of the heart(s) by electrocution. (I think)
Imran 'sometimes he is, sometimes he isn't. It's just one of those things.'
Inayat
Tony Velasquez
>In article <7rcf7e$oca$1...@the-fly.zip.com.au>,
> jb...@zipper.zip.com.au (Jonathan Blum) wrote:
>> In article <7raouu$o9c$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>> David Brider <da...@dwjbrider.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> >Rayctate wrote in message <19990909234259.29657.00007118@ng-
>fk1.aol.com>...
>>
>> >>As I stated before, the Doctor has genes that code for human eyes.
>> >>That is why the fifth Doctor's eyesight is defective: subject to
>> >>mutation. Even the Master at the end of his regenerative cycle can
>> >>see perfectly. No Time Lord save the Doctor wore glasses in the
>> >>series...
>>
>> >Excuse me, but how many Time Lords were we introduced to in the
>> >series? Not enough to make this sort of argument from silence in
>> >any way meaningful, I'll wager.
>>
>> Especially since Chronotis wears reading glasses, IIRC.
>
>It's implied Chronotis was the Doctor at the end.
>
>
At the end of what? Then again... The Doctor zaps people's brains
pretty easily. Look what he keeps doing to poor old Sara Jane in The Hand
of Fear "Oh no, not again!" plop. Naughty Doctor!
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony Velasquez (vela...@grovenet.net)
"I find it hard enough to believe that one of us were one of them, but if
*two* of us were two of them, then.... all of us could be all of them!"
--Prime Minister Hacker, "Yes Prime Minister".
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ice
J2rider wrote in message <19990910214252...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
Being moved? I thought it was a link to the eye of harmony which gives the
Tardis its power and not the actual Eye of harmony.
ICE
Arfie Mansfield
>> 18-He knows about the Eye of Harmony.
>
>And thinks it's in the TARDIS rather than on Gallifrey
So does the Master.
In TID, power from the EoH is channeled along to every part of
the capitol by a network of small tunnels (IIRC), and not by cables or
any other conventional way. When I read it, the description of the
system reminded me of the "EoH" in the TVM. The Timelords could have
some way of linking the system to TARDISes somehow, so it may in fact be
the EoH, but we only see one bit of it. IMVHO.
Feel free to take the piss.
=-=Arfie=-=
Ice
I always thought that The Doctor was loomed through the House of Lungbarrow
and so could not have parents. But he was part of the other, i.e some of his
genetic material was that of the other and in the TVM the shock of the
regeneration caused the memories of the other to surface and so the Doctor
was confused and thought he was half human, which in truth he probaly is if
the other was. When he recalls father on Gallifrey, he is remembering the
others memories. So i am not saying he was confused, i am saying that he was
remebering memories of his former self.
Ice
Daniel Frankham
>j2r...@aol.com (J2rider) wrote:
>
>><<< And after this point the only haf
>>human reference is the distracting wind-up to Wagg, obviously because he's
>>thinking "what the fuck did I say earlier" and is trying to re-establish
>>the truth to Grace as well.>>>>
>>
>>Wrong. There is that EYE thing which opens only for Chang Lee and Grace...and
>>obviously the Doctor. :) :) :)
>
>Hey, do you think you could set up your newsreading software to quote
>in the correct fashion? It's very difficult to read your messages
>when they are so non-standard.
And your stats program can't work out his quoting percentage either :)
--
Daniel Frankham
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We love television because television brings us a world in which
television does not exist. In fact, deep in their hearts, this is what
the spuds crave most: a rich, new, participatory life.
(Barbara Ehrenreich)
J2rider
,,,,,<<<<<,,,,I always thought that The Doctor was loomed through the House of
Hehee, a bit of a mess innit.
So the Other was a Time Lord on Gallifrey aye? Who says? Heehee. And the
other's mom was human. Ok. NOT. ?
J2rider
<<<Hey, do you think you could set up your newsreading software to quote
in the correct fashion? It's very difficult to read your messages
when they are so non-standard.
>>>>
Uhmmm, if I took 48 hours to figure it all out, maybe. BUt as it is, NO.
I appreciate your BYEEEEEE.
J2rider
these mean: TID, EoH, IIRC, IVMOH!?!? Halp!
edjefferson
>
> Sorry but I hate too many of these abbreviations: I have no idea what most of
> these mean: TID, EoH, IIRC, IVMOH!?!? Halp!
TID- The Infinity Doctors
EoH- Eye of Harmony???
IIRC- If I Remember Correctly
IVMOH- Do you mean IMVHO- In My Very Honorable Opinion???
--
"The BBC, it's not just shit, it's your shit."
Jean-Marc Lofficier
Richard Rogers wrote in message ...
>There are a few possibilities for the half-human theory.
>1. The film is a load of crap and should be ignored (or Matthew Jacobs
>should be maimed)
Actually that wasn't Matthew's idea, but Phil Segal's.
>
>The Doctor is certainly not human as the Fourth Doctor gets very offended
>when called a human (can't remember the story) and the Seventh Doctor uses
>Humans as an insult (Remembrance Of The Daleks).
>
Well now, in the good ol' South, a man with some African-American ancestry
but who looked white enough to, er, pass himself off as white (a ridiculous
concept) in white society would react exactly the same way, and what dos
that rove?
JM
do that all the time. It proves nothing, you know.
>I. Inayat <ti...@stubbs59.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:7rd2op$7be$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Richard Rogers
1. The film is a load of crap and should be ignored (or Matthew Jacobs
should be maimed)
to confuse his enemies)
3. The solution I used which was that the Spacecraft that Adric was killed
on caused a genetic problem with the evolving humans and the Doctor went
back in time and had to use some of his DNA to fix the problem. This then
means that humans are half-Doctor.
The Doctor is certainly not human as the Fourth Doctor gets very offended
when called a human (can't remember the story) and the Seventh Doctor uses
Humans as an insult (Remembrance Of The Daleks).
Jonathan Blum
>In article <7rcf7e$oca$1...@the-fly.zip.com.au>,
> jb...@zipper.zip.com.au (Jonathan Blum) wrote:
>> Especially since Chronotis wears reading glasses, IIRC.
>It's implied Chronotis was the Doctor at the end.
You mean the "he seemed like such a nice old man" exchange, where the
Doctor says they'll probably say the same thing about him someday? That's
really reaching, IMHO.
Regards,
Jon Blum
I. Inayat
>1. The film is a load of crap and should be ignored (or Matthew Jacobs
>should be maimed)
Tell that to DWM. Or BBC Worldwide.
Or to the TVM fans on the group. (including me....)
_Why_ is it a load of crap ?
>2. The Doctor was confused in The Enemy Within (or was just taking the
>piss to confuse his enemies)
<Buzzer sounds> I'm sorry, you have once again missed that the Master
identified the Doctor's retinal structure as human. (Or in other words, it
ain't just the Doctor who says it.......)
>3. The solution I used which was that the Spacecraft that Adric was killed
>on caused a genetic problem with the evolving humans and the Doctor went
>back in time and had to use some of his DNA to fix the problem. This then
>means that humans are half-Doctor.
Given all the other manipulations of early humanity (the Daemons, the
Fendahl, the Jagaroth.....), we should add this one on what evidence?
<baffled look>
And this explanation is simpler than 'His mother's human' because ....?
>The Doctor is certainly not human as the Fourth Doctor gets very offended
>when called a human (can't remember the story) and the Seventh Doctor >uses
Humans as an insult (Remembrance Of The Daleks).
We _know_ he ain't human (although you're ignoring the fact that the First
said he was, in the Sensorites). What we're arguing is that he's
half-human....
....and because Mark Twain spoke disparagingly of Americans, does that mean
he wasn't American?
Or that he was commenting on them as an outsider, regardless of his
relationship to them?
Imran Inayat
Dangermouse
J2rider <j2r...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990910213512...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
>
> > 2- he realized he has two hearts
> > 3-he holds a conversation with Grace
> > 4-he remembers who Grace is
> >>>
>
> <<So?>>>>>
>
> So this proves he was telling her facts that were true about his past
Let's see:
I went to College twice
I've been on several British warhsips and a Russian submarine
I'm actually half-Vulcan.
Note the similarity? Two true statemenst, one false...
--
"This path has been placed before you; the choice to take it is yours
alone"
Dangermouse
J2rider <j2r...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990910214252...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
>
> <<<And thinks it's in the TARDIS rather than on Gallifrey
> >>>
>
> Apparently it's been moved or this is a "trick" Eye or something. But
the
> Master and the Doc call it the Eye. Oh but you are thinking maybe the
Master
> is going bonkers too and not in his right mind. Right? Perhaps.
The Master's been barking for years - and this isn't even his own mind, let
a lone a right one.
Dangermouse
J2rider <j2r...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990910214154...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
>
> <<<Who was indirectly responsible for killing him - no wonder.
> >>>>
>
> Where? How? What movie were you watching? Oh perhaps for diverting him to
this
> spot but that doesn't mean he would remember the name of the Master (I
know not
> his name but as far as we are concerned, it is).
Who fucked up the TARDIS and sent it to the spot where he immediately got
blown away. And if you have to resort to responding to every point in a
separate fucking message, then you know you're beaten and are trying to
discourage your victorious oppenent.
Unless of course you're just plain stupid.
Dangermouse
J2rider <j2r...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990910214422...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
>
> <<Which contradicts what he said before. And after this point the only
haf
> human reference is the distracting wind-up to Wagg, obviously because
he's
> thinking "what the fuck did I say earlier" and is trying to re-establish
> the truth to Grace as well.>>>>
>
> You are wrong again. Spock is half human but almost always calls himself
a
> Vulcan. The Doc, for better reasons than Spock may have needed to hide
that he
> was a weaker race or in part a weaker race in the eyes of some of his
enemies.
> The Doc may have been half human all along but for some reason wanted it
> hidden.
For which there has never been anay suggestion - because there din't need
to be.
Dangermouse
J2rider <j2r...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990910214809...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
>
> <<<No he isn't. Well, the 8th might be, but the rest certainly aren't.
> >>>
>
> You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine. But the Doc never states
that
> he is not human in the show, nor does he state he is fully alien.
Apart from the times he does
Dangermouse
J2rider <j2r...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990910214507...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
> <<< And after this point the only haf
> human reference is the distracting wind-up to Wagg, obviously because
he's
> thinking "what the fuck did I say earlier" and is trying to re-establish
> the truth to Grace as well.>>>>
>
> Wrong. There is that EYE thing which opens only for Chang Lee and
Grace...and
> obviously the Doctor. :) :) :)
>
Oh now you're responding to the same individual point in two separate
messges. Piss off and get a life you fucking tit.
John Pettigrew
j2r...@aol.com (J2rider) caressed the keyboard seductively and came
up with this:
>
><<<No he isn't. Well, the 8th might be, but the rest certainly aren't.
>>>>
>
>You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine. But the Doc never states that
>he is not human in the show, nor does he state he is fully alien. "Please don't
>call me human," and Harry's look at the Doc when he and the Doc are called
>human, "Well, I am anyway," but the Doc says nothing.
Er, so what about when Sarah says to the 4th Doctor, "Sometimes I
don't think you're hu-" in Pyramids of Mars.
And the Doctor replies, "Human? You forget, I'm not..."
>He also talks about humans (as the 8th and 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th do BUT
>NOT the 1st or the 2nd) as the 8th Doctor when referring to them which proves
>he doesn't call himself human even though he is half human himself (like
>Spock).
our....@virgin.net - John Pettigrew
"When it's Spring again, I'll sing again, 'Talons of Weng-Chiang'..."
The RADW Rogues Gallery - http://freespace.virgin.net/our.hero/index.html
Dr. Evil
Dangermouse wrote:
>
> J2rider <j2r...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19990910214507...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
> > <<< And after this point the only haf
> > human reference is the distracting wind-up to Wagg, obviously because
> he's
> > thinking "what the fuck did I say earlier" and is trying to re-establish
> > the truth to Grace as well.>>>>
> >
> > Wrong. There is that EYE thing which opens only for Chang Lee and
> Grace...and
> > obviously the Doctor. :) :) :)
> >
>
> Oh now you're responding to the same individual point in two separate
> messges. Piss off and get a life you fucking tit.
He's a classic example of what a bad idea the Weekly Stats
are. He responds to individual posts in lots of different
messages to get his posting average up, and he's constantly
trying to start threads.
Get rid of 'em, now!
--
dr-...@belisarius.freeserve.co.uk
If you want a friend, feed any animal
http://www.belisarius.freeserve.co.uk/
edjefferson
> And this explanation is simpler than 'His mother's human' because ....?
The Doctor came out of a gallifreyan loom, and so didn't have a mother
as such.
J2rider
finish that. Spock does not consider himself human either. Constantly talking
about "You humans," or "amazing how you humans get what you least want..."
And if you factor in how many times that Sarah's mind is taken over--why would
the Doc want any enemy to know he is half human through Sarah's knowledge (or
lack thereof).
As for everyone getting upset, take it easy. It's just DOCTOR WHO.And
DangerMouse stop the cursing. If you can.
I. Inayat
>The Doctor came out of a gallifreyan loom, and so didn't have a mother
>as such.
Of course, there _are_ ways he could have had a human mother, even given a
loom birth.......('The Infinity Doctors' implies that such a thing is
possible, even if it's not the Doctor we know.......)
The post I was responding to only used the TV series as evidence, so I chose
to do the same.
Imran 'pedant' Inayat
m_eli...@my-deja.com
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S for Blue Angel
I heard there's a genuine appearance of the Doctor's mother in one of
the more surreal sequences of the book.
see u,
M. Elizabeth
Rayctate
>The Doctor came out of a gallifreyan >loom, and so >didn't have a mother as
such.
"Wait, wait...I remember lying in the grass with my father. It's a warm
Gallifreyan night."--The Doctor to Grace.
"You see that? That's the retinal structure of the human eye. The Doctor's
half-human! No wonder!"
--The Master to Chang Li
"I'm half-human, on my mother's side."--the Doctor to Professor Wagg
"Yes, I think you must be."--Grace to the Doctor
"In six hundred years nobody's managed to open the eye. How did you do it?"
"Simple. Li's human, and you're only half."--The Master.
Where did these lines come from? They came from an actual televised episode of
"Doctor Who."
The loom isn't mentioned once in the televised history of the program. This
isn't surprising since it came from one book. Not one word in the televised
history of "Doctor Who" supports the loom, and several deny its existence. Not
one word in the televised history of "Doctor Who" contradicts that the Doctor
is actually half-human. Several lines not to forget the fifth Doctor's poor
eye-sight even support it. Half-human fits. It was televised. The loom
doesn't fit. It was never televised.
Ray
"I'm half-human, on my mother's side."--The eighth Doctor
Rayctate
I
M
H
A
L
F
H
U
M
A
N
>I heard there's a genuine appearance of the Doctor's mother in one of
>the more surreal sequences of the book.
>
>see u,
>
>M. Elizabeth
No doubt her head has been lopped off.
Rayctate
>Er, so what about when Sarah says to the 4th Doctor, "Sometimes I
>don't think you're hu-" in Pyramids of Mars.
>
>And the Doctor replies, "Human? You forget, I'm not..."
John, we've had this discussion before. The Doctor saying he's not human is
perfectly accurate. He's half-human. Humans don't have two hearts and double
respiratory bypass systems. He's half-human : )
Si Jerram
> > >>>
J2R> You are entitled to your opinion and I to mine.
Your posts don't support your belief in this? You (and Rayctate)
seem to have severe problems to people who see the half human issue
differently to you.
J2R> But the Doc never states that he is not human in the show,
J2R> nor does he state he is fully alien.
> Apart from the times he does
Including in the TVM no less...
--
Simon Jerram Email:si...@telos.clara.co.uk
Life keeps getting better and better.
the_do...@my-deja.com
Just a thought on all this, and the way I interpreted it. I guess this
is a Lungbarrow spoiler if there's anyone out there nnot read it, so
I'll leave a space...
In Lungbarrow, The Doctor is what pops out of the loom years after The
Other jumped in, so, pretty much, The Doctor is The Other. Certainly
it's stated that Susan is The Other's granddaughter, and the Doctor
doesn't recognise her when he meets up with her before whisking her
away in the TARDIS.
So how about if: we accept that The Doctor came from the loom BUT The
Other - The Doctor's original form, pre-regeneration technology,
presumably resembling Hartnell as Susan recognises HIM, was in fact
half-human, on his mother's side?
Hmm?
Si Jerram
> Just a thought on all this, and the way I interpreted it. I guess this
> is a Lungbarrow spoiler if there's anyone out there nnot read it, so
> I'll leave a space...
> In Lungbarrow, The Doctor is what pops out of the loom years after The
> Other jumped in, so, pretty much, The Doctor is The Other. Certainly
> it's stated that Susan is The Other's granddaughter, and the Doctor
> doesn't recognise her when he meets up with her before whisking her
> away in the TARDIS.
> So how about if: we accept that The Doctor came from the loom BUT The
> Other - The Doctor's original form, pre-regeneration technology,
> presumably resembling Hartnell as Susan recognises HIM, was in fact
> half-human, on his mother's side?
I think that's one version of it yes.
Another possibility is that the Doctor had a human mother and
Galifreyan father all along.
The third is he only became half human on his seventh regenration
due to compliactions with the blood...
The fourth ...
But no, we can't say this. We must be horrible and evil heretics
not to accept and *believe* the one truth that Ray Tate and
J2Rider say are obvious from the TVM. We're horrible people
for not totally and unquestionably agreeing with them and
seeing things differently than they do...
Nanx ergragvir jnaxref! (as they say in Pnzoevqtr)
m_eli...@my-deja.com
rayc...@aol.com (Rayctate) wrote:
> BLUE ANGEL SPOILER AHOY!
>
> I
>
> M
>
> H
>
> A
>
> L
>
> F
>
> H
>
> U
>
> M
>
> A
>
> N
>
> >I heard there's a genuine appearance of the Doctor's mother in one of
> >the more surreal sequences of the book.
> >
> >see u,
> >
> >M. Elizabeth
>
> No doubt her head has been lopped off.
Ahaha, no. From the reviews that I've read on the Jade Pagoda archive
Paul Magr has her be a half-mermaid 1920's flapper! Well, it sounds more
original than Platt's idea that Leela and Andred aka Mr. Dull is
the Other's parents, IMO anyway.
see u,
M. Elizabeth
I. Inayat
P
O
I
L
E
R
S for Blue Angel
>I heard there's a genuine appearance of the Doctor's mother in one of
>the more surreal sequences of the book.
>see u,
>M. Elizabeth
Actually, it's _a_ Doctor's mother, and she gives a whole new meaning to
'half-human on his mother's side'.............
<runs away _very_ quickly......>
Imran Inayat
John Pettigrew
rayc...@aol.com (Rayctate) caressed the keyboard seductively and came
up with this:
>John Pettigrew wrote:
>
>>Er, so what about when Sarah says to the 4th Doctor, "Sometimes I
>>don't think you're hu-" in Pyramids of Mars.
>>
>>And the Doctor replies, "Human? You forget, I'm not..."
>
>John, we've had this discussion before. The Doctor saying he's not human is
>perfectly accurate. He's half-human. Humans don't have two hearts and double
>respiratory bypass systems. He's half-human : )
Bu that's a contradiction, surely!
If you had the Doctor's biology and were born on a different planet,
would that make you half-human? Or alien?
If the Doctor has always been half-human why then, the quote from
Pyramids of Mars? Wouldn't he reveal his half-humaness at this point?
At the end of the day, I can see the "proof" and follow the logic of
the arguments "for" the Doctor's half-human status. But I just don't
LIKE it, since I see it as a step towards making the Doctor less of an
alien and gives the series a sort of soap opera spin to it.
"Ooh, Pauline! You'll never guess what!"
"What?"
"Well, you know that nice Time Lord who moved in to number 29?"
"Yeeeees..."
"Well, it seems he's actually half-human."
"No! Never!"
"Oh yes, seems his dad had it off with Dot Cotton's granny in a fit of
time-travelling passion."
"Eeeh, the dirty cow!"
I. Inayat
>At the end of the day, I can see the "proof" and follow the logic of
>the arguments "for" the Doctor's half-human status. But I just don't
>LIKE it, since I see it as a step towards making the Doctor less of an
>alien and gives the series a sort of soap opera spin to it.
Just wanted to put in a comment here.....
The BBC writers have used the half-human idea in a number of ways;
thematically, comparing the Doctor to a demigod or changeling, someone of
this world and the Otherworld ('Genocide', 'The Blue Angel' & 'Autumn Mist'
being noticeable cases); to help emphasise his alien nature.... 'Placebo
Effect and 'Beltempest' occur as examples. (He may _look_ human, but there
will always be a part of him that remains Other, unknowable.... ) ; and to
add to the mystery and ambiguity that surrounds the Doctor ('Unnatural
History' & 'The Infinity Doctors' spring to mind).
And there's Scott Gray's use of it in the DWM strip 'The Fallen'. (Lemme put
it this way; he blabbed a little _too_ much during the TV Movie, and now the
consequences are catching up with him........). Still leaves it ambiguous,
though.....
A future writer _could_ use it in a 'soap opera' fashion, which is a
possibility that applies to a lot of ideas, and that risk will always exist.
But, in the 3 and a half years since the TV Movie, the writers have used it
in a number of interesting and fascinating ways that add to the 'Who
universe, and hopefully, they're responsible enough to carry on doing that.
Imran 'So I liked the idea....' Inayat
PS: John......BWAHAHAHA!!! _That_ was funny....
Joxer
Dangermouse <mas...@sol.co.ukDEATH-TO-SPAMMERS> wrote in message
news:01befd04$b71ed420$LocalHost@lgwujvnl...
> >
> > > 2- he realized he has two hearts
> > > 3-he holds a conversation with Grace
> > > 4-he remembers who Grace is
> > >>>
> >
> > <<So?>>>>>
> >
> > So this proves he was telling her facts that were true about his past
>
> Let's see:
>
> I went to College twice
> I've been on several British warhsips and a Russian submarine
> I'm actually half-Vulcan.
>
> Note the similarity? Two true statemenst, one false...
Absolutely. A mouse in college? absurd! Take up your pointy ears and walk,
DM.
--
Colin B.
baggy...and a bit loose at the seams.
http://x-stream.fortunecity.com/scullyst/25
J2rider
<<If you had the Doctor's biology and were born on a different planet,
would that make you half-human? Or alien?
>>>
ummm, both actually.
J2rider
no
No
NO!
Adam Richards
<panic rising in voice>
"The TVM *must* be obeyed at all costs!!!!"
======================================================
Adam Richards Ad...@roblang.demon.co.uk
Rayctate
>In Lungbarrow, The Doctor is what pops out of the loom years after The
>Other jumped in, so, pretty much, The Doctor is The Other. Certainly
>it's stated that Susan is The Other's granddaughter, and the Doctor
>doesn't recognise her when he meets up with her before whisking her
>away in the TARDIS.
>
>So how about if: we accept that The Doctor came from the loom BUT The
>Other - The Doctor's original form, pre-regeneration technology,
>presumably resembling Hartnell as Susan recognises HIM, was in fact
>half-human, on his mother's side?
>
>Hmm?
Absolutely not. Disregarding the personally nauseating and irrational idea of
including a book into actual televised history, the explanation sucks all the
drama and magic out of the scene.
"Wait! I remember being the Other. And then I threw myself into a genetic
Cuisnart, and this other guy had a father, and I remember him lying in the
grass. I remember being the Other and thinking it's a warm Gallifreyan night.
Oh, skip it. It'll take to long to explain. Suffice to say my memory's coming
back. Errr. How about a snog?"
Rayctate
>Your posts don't support your belief in this? You >(and Rayctate) seem to
have severe problems to >people who see the half human issue differently to
>you.
I have offered a very good suggestion that nobody seems to like because they
have made their minds up about who the Doctor is--loomed and half-human.
I have suggested that there be loomed books as well as half-human books,
combinations of both philosophies as well as neither. All these books would
have little symbols on the cover to distinguish the themes.
This is the logical solution to the problem presented by the different factions
of fandom. Then everybody could read the books that they like and not feel
like they have wasted their money.
I felt this was a very open-minded solution, and yet I was shot down with "Why
should we do this when everybody except you accepts the Doctor as being loomed
and half-human?" That's not the case. There are people who hate the loom.
There are people who hate half-human and the loom. There are people who love
the loom, and there are people like me who love half-human and despise the loom
and the cheesy plot device for which it stands.
David ball
>
>I have suggested that there be loomed books as well as half-human books,
>combinations of both philosophies as well as neither. All these books would
>have little symbols on the cover to distinguish the themes
So we split the talent pool so that a few people can be happy?
>
>This is the logical solution to the problem presented by the different factions
>of fandom. Then everybody could read the books that they like and not feel
>like they have wasted their money.
And the market is so big splitting it up will not be a problem.
>
>I felt this was a very open-minded solution, and yet I was shot down with "Why
>should we do this when everybody except you accepts the Doctor as being loomed
>and half-human?" That's not the case. There are people who hate the loom.
>There are people who hate half-human and the loom. There are people who love
>the loom, and there are people like me who love half-human and despise the loom
>and the cheesy plot device for which it stands.
>
And their are people who think that half human was the cheesy plot
device and that the looms offer a more interesting society to explore.
Zooropa
"I'm not human." The fourth Doctor - Pyramids of Mars
David ball
>
>
>Absolutely not. Disregarding the personally nauseating and irrational idea of
>including a book into actual televised history, the explanation sucks all the
>drama and magic out of the scene.
One scene! Ignore lots of interesting books in favour of one scene.
Logical? No. But then you proved recently that you have no logical
basis for ignoring the books, just your preferences wrapped up in
spurious arguments.
>
>"Wait! I remember being the Other. And then I threw myself into a genetic
>Cuisnart, and this other guy had a father, and I remember him lying in the
>grass. I remember being the Other and thinking it's a warm Gallifreyan night.
>Oh, skip it. It'll take to long to explain. Suffice to say my memory's coming
>back. Errr. How about a snog?"
Looms are a dam sight more interesting that the Doctor just being a
pseudo human.
Yet no one forces you to accept it and you want everyone to accept
your view on this.
Zooropa
"I'm not human". The 4th Doctor. Pyramids of Mars.
Dangermouse
Joxer <nyssas...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > > So this proves he was telling her facts that were true about his past
> >
> > Let's see:
> >
> > I went to College twice
> > I've been on several British warhsips and a Russian submarine
> > I'm actually half-Vulcan.
> >
> > Note the similarity? Two true statemenst, one false...
>
> Absolutely. A mouse in college? absurd! Take up your pointy ears and
walk,
> DM.
Live long, and prosper...
John Pettigrew
fluffy "I. Inayat" <ti...@stubbs59.freeserve.co.uk> caressed the
keyboard seductively and came up with this:
>John Pettigrew wrote:
>>At the end of the day, I can see the "proof" and follow the logic of
>>the arguments "for" the Doctor's half-human status. But I just don't
>>LIKE it, since I see it as a step towards making the Doctor less of an
>>alien and gives the series a sort of soap opera spin to it.
>
>Just wanted to put in a comment here.....
<snip> interpretation of the way the BBC Books have used the concept
of the Doctor being half-human
>But, in the 3 and a half years since the TV Movie, the writers have used it
>in a number of interesting and fascinating ways that add to the 'Who
>universe, and hopefully, they're responsible enough to carry on doing that.
Fair enough, and point taken. The authors *have* done a good job of a
bad idea IMO. I still don't like the basic idea of the Doctor as
being anything other than an alien. And until the TVM, we didn't have
anything to say otherwise.
>Imran 'So I liked the idea....' Inayat
>
>PS: John......BWAHAHAHA!!! _That_ was funny....
Ta!
John Pettigrew
j2r...@aol.com (J2rider) caressed the keyboard seductively and came
up with this:
><<<<Wouldn't he reveal his half-humaness at this point?>>>
>
>no
>
>No
>
>NO!
Why not? Why the big secret?
Adam Richards
wrote:
>Fair enough, and point taken. The authors *have* done a good job of a
>bad idea IMO. I still don't like the basic idea of the Doctor as
>being anything other than an alien. And until the TVM, we didn't have
>anything to say otherwise.
I don't like the idea of him being "loomed" either (doesn't it shit
all over the conversation he had with Victioria in "Tomb of the
Cybermen" from a great height???), so that shows you there is no one
"truth" in Dr Who that everyone can agree on.
If there *had* to be just one, for me it would be that we still
haven't heard the definitive story of the Doc's origins yet (since it
wasn't dealt with in the BBC TV show). If there's another BBC TV show,
I reckon they ought to carry on where the other one left off - forget
the looms; forget the Doc being half human, I say.
======================================================
Adam Richards Ad...@roblang.demon.co.uk
Nyctolops
Richards) wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:10:43 GMT, our....@virgin.net (John Pettigrew)
>wrote:
>
>>Fair enough, and point taken. The authors *have* done a good job of a
>>bad idea IMO. I still don't like the basic idea of the Doctor as
>>being anything other than an alien. And until the TVM, we didn't have
>>anything to say otherwise.
>
>I don't like the idea of him being "loomed" either (doesn't it shit
>all over the conversation he had with Victioria in "Tomb of the
>Cybermen" from a great height???), so that shows you there is no one
>"truth" in Dr Who that everyone can agree on.
Actually, since the Doctor does have a family (all those cousins), the
conversation with Victoria just shifts a little from what we usually
think of as a family. It does make a mess of Susan's background,
though. I find "The Doctor is the Other and the Other -- insert
whatever you need to explain here -- " just a little bit contrived
(contrived? in Doctor Who? how shocking!). It does fit the bill of
squeezing the Looms and half-human together, though. Personally, I am
not a great fan of either Looms or half-human, but they have been
handled well enough to keep me happy. My greatest fears on
encountering each of them have not be realized and I find I can live
with both concepts. The last part of your statement is *absolutely*
spot on.
>If there *had* to be just one, for me it would be that we still
>haven't heard the definitive story of the Doc's origins yet (since it
>wasn't dealt with in the BBC TV show). If there's another BBC TV show,
>I reckon they ought to carry on where the other one left off - forget
>the looms; forget the Doc being half human, I say.
You are probably right here. A new show would probably ignore both
and might ignore the Doctor's origins altogether. Then everyone could
believe anything they liked. :-)
Nyctolops
rec.arts.drwho General Information FAQ
http://nitro9.earth.uni.edu/doctor/FAQ/faq_1.txt
Quotefile nominations to radwqu...@geocities.com
Jonathan Blum
Rayctate <rayc...@aol.com> wrote:
>I have offered a very good suggestion that nobody seems to like because they
>have made their minds up about who the Doctor is--loomed and half-human.
>I have suggested that there be loomed books as well as half-human books,
>combinations of both philosophies as well as neither. All these books would
>have little symbols on the cover to distinguish the themes.
Why stop there? How about a complete ingredients listing on the title
page...
CAUTION: This book contains references to the following TV serials,
books, and audio plays (or concepts introduced therein):
Fury From The Deep
The Invasion
Terror of the Autons
Dancing The Code
The Green Death
Lungbarrow
The Eight Doctors
Vampire Science
Readers allergic to any of the above stories should put this book back on
the shelf and flee screaming from the shop immediately. Never mind if
they're only passing references, you're better safe than sorry.
ADDITIONAL NUTRITIONAL NOTES: This story may prove particularly
unpalatable to those who wish to deny that the Pertwee era ever happened.
This book also contains at least 25% of the USDA recommended daily
allowance of angst, characterization, plot, theme, and ideas. May contain
traces of the Doctor's third cousin. The management is not responsible
for any additional continuity references beyond those declared here. No
MSG.
OBLIGATORY MCDONALDS LAWSUIT WARNING: Upon discovering a continuity
reference or an idea which you dislike, do not pour a scalding cup of
coffee on this book and tuck it between your legs.
Regards,
Jon Blum
Jonathan Blum
Rayctate <rayc...@aol.com> wrote:
>Doctor 9 wrote:
>>In Lungbarrow, The Doctor is what pops out of the loom years after The
>>Other jumped in, so, pretty much, The Doctor is The Other. Certainly
>>it's stated that Susan is The Other's granddaughter, and the Doctor
>>doesn't recognise her when he meets up with her before whisking her
>>away in the TARDIS.
>>So how about if: we accept that The Doctor came from the loom BUT The
>>Other - The Doctor's original form, pre-regeneration technology,
>>presumably resembling Hartnell as Susan recognises HIM, was in fact
>>half-human, on his mother's side?
>Absolutely not. Disregarding the personally nauseating and irrational idea of
>including a book into actual televised history, the explanation sucks all the
>drama and magic out of the scene.
>"Wait! I remember being the Other. And then I threw myself into a genetic
>Cuisnart, and this other guy had a father, and I remember him lying in the
>grass. I remember being the Other and thinking it's a warm Gallifreyan night.
>Oh, skip it. It'll take to long to explain. Suffice to say my memory's coming
>back. Errr. How about a snog?"
Except of course that the scene can happen exactly the same way. The
Doctor doesn't need to go into these details, any more than he needs to
say "Human? You're forgetting, I'm not. Well, except for that half of
me, thanks to my mother Lizzie -- girl from the 1940's, she was..."
Regards,
Jon Blum
Jonathan Blum
>>the more surreal sequences of the book.
>No doubt her head has been lopped off.
Nope -- and there's no violence inflicted on the Doctor's father in the
memory sequence in "Unnatural History", either. OTOH, neither do we blow
up the Loom, which we refer to in the same memory.
You can keep trying to draw your stark battle lines, half-human on one
side and the Loom on the other, insist never the twain shall meet -- and
the series will continue to dance gleefully on both sides of the line at
once. :-)
Regards,
Jon Blum
I. Inayat
Two questions. Leaving the evidence aside, why is the idea that the Doc was
born (without any IVF, genetic manipulation, etc.) half-human important?
And were you satisfed with the TV series before you learned the Doctor was
half-human?
Imran Inayat
John Pettigrew
Ad...@roblang.demon.co.uk (Adam Richards) caressed the keyboard
seductively and came up with this:
>On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:10:43 GMT, our....@virgin.net (John Pettigrew)
>wrote:
>
>>Fair enough, and point taken. The authors *have* done a good job of a
>>bad idea IMO. I still don't like the basic idea of the Doctor as
>>being anything other than an alien. And until the TVM, we didn't have
>>anything to say otherwise.
>
>I don't like the idea of him being "loomed" either (doesn't it shit
>all over the conversation he had with Victioria in "Tomb of the
>Cybermen" from a great height???), so that shows you there is no one
>"truth" in Dr Who that everyone can agree on.
>
>If there *had* to be just one, for me it would be that we still
>haven't heard the definitive story of the Doc's origins yet (since it
>wasn't dealt with in the BBC TV show). If there's another BBC TV show,
>I reckon they ought to carry on where the other one left off - forget
>the looms; forget the Doc being half human, I say.
Yay!
Woof!
William December Starr
rayc...@aol.com (Rayctate) said:
> Regarding characterization, making the Doctor half-human is
> beautiful. It gives him resonance. The Doctor being half-human
> means that this mongrel, this antithesis of Dalek philosophy has
> beaten them over and over again.
Like they care whether he's pure-something or not. All they recognize
is "Dalek" and "not-Dalek."
> Half-human has a long and honorable tradition in the halls of
> heroes.
Make something long and honorable enough and it can become cliched and
trite. Boring too.
-- William December Starr <wds...@crl.com>
Rayctate
>Two questions. Leaving the evidence aside, why is >the idea that the Doc was
born (without any IVF, >genetic manipulation, etc.) half-human important?
It's only important to Grace 1999. No book. No television episode or audio
play or comic strip need mention it ever again. They of course can, but
there's no requirement.
Regarding characterization, making the Doctor half-human is beautiful. It
gives him resonance. The Doctor being half-human means that this mongrel, this
antithesis of Dalek philosophy has beaten them over and over again.
Half-human has a long and honorable tradition in the halls of heroes. It's
fitting that the Doctor be welcomed among them to once more re-invent the
archetype.
It also makes each victory of his more thrilling. His being half-human and
less of the all powerful Time Lord means that he had to work harder to win. He
had to be smarter because he learned rather than was given more. He had to be
more cunning because he learned how to be a cagey opponent, and here's how I
phrased it some months ago. Some amendments have been added.
Half-human, unlike the loom, unlike the Other, negates nothing that has gone
before.....All the other contrivances regarding his origins, for the reasons I
have already given takes a whacking great sledge hammer and shatters the
continuity of the series proper. Half-human does not. Half-human respects the
series.
The spirit of the show has always been one of nonconformity. The Doctor is a
renegade. Even before the writers established the Time Lords as his people,
they established that he and Susan were "exiles." By making him half-human,
you further reinforce this idea....The Doctor and Susan's human heritage
explains why they are considered exiles. The heritage explains why he is
treated so shabbily by his people throughout the series proper.
Being half-human makes the Doctor a man of two worlds. He can pass as a human
on earth, but he exhibits quirks that identify him as unearthly. He can never
fit into Time Lord society, and yet they cannot deny that part of him is
theirs. Being half-human makes him an outsider everywhen he travels. Because
of his loyalties to no one race, he can choose sides. If a war erupts between
humans and Time Lords, which side to you think he will support? The side of the
innocent! If the humans invade Gallifrey somehow, he will turn them away. If
the Time Lords are going "to put an ancient culture like the earth to the
sword," he will not hesitate to fight them. He will do these things because he
is forever an outsider. He's half-human.
"Doctor Who 1996" reestablishes what we knew that the Doctor is unique. He's
not the godlike reincarnation of the Other with the super powers that Jim
Mortimore bequeaths to him. He doesn't "lower his perceptions" to play with
and use humans. This concept totally rails against the series proper. In fact
this is how his enemies on numerous occasions rationalize the Doctor's love for
humans. They're all wrong. The Doctor's love for humanity is an honest one.
The Doctor is the underestimated pawn, within the game, that travels the
straight and narrow, attacking when you least expect it, to become a knight.
He's master of the bluff, and when the player on the other side sees through
his ruse, he's the arch-adapter, desperate jury-rigger of devices that are
likely to get the job done but explode in his face. What better way to express
such a dual nature of brilliance and buffoonery than make him half-human?
The loom is a cheesy plot device that has absolutely no dramatic impact. It's
just another irritating artificial reproductive aid that reinforces the
erroneous idea that the Doctor has been chaste all his life. Mr. Blum, who
likes to give the loom a big wet kiss, doesn't buy this so there are exceptions
that prove the rule, but most of the fans today would like to explain away
Susan as just another companion since she's the only physical evidence that the
Doctor has at least one time in his life made love to a woman, and Lungbarrow
does that, but Grace 1999 gives the Doctor a human mother and a Time Lord
father. Half-human reinforces that Susan is his granddaughter because the
Doctor can have a family; the Doctor is a continuation of a blood-line. Grace
1999 adds to the two characters, I always assumed existed, in his history. You
have the potential to meet them. You have the potential to look back on the
Doctor's youth--as on occasion the series does. You have the potential of
including flashbacks where the Doctor stuffs a big cinammon, sugar cookie into
his mouth and sits upon his mother's lap while she sings to him.
With the loom, Time Lords have no youth. They're essentially sexless gourds
and totally alien to our understanding. This is not what the series is about.
Making the Doctor the Other is a slap in the face at the series. Consider
this. Bob Kane created Batman. Batman is a human vigilante who strives for
his victories against crime. Now, suppose some idiot author decided that he
didn't like that. Suppose this imbecile decided that he was going to make
Batman a reincarnation of somebody else. Such an act would be one of utter
hubris. This would mean that every action in the past, present and future of
the Batman is not attributable to the character Bob Kane created but to the
author's new retcon which he retroactively has slipped into the continuity.
Now, DC would never do this. They respect and recognize what makes their
heroes great. That's why Batman will always be the most human of their
characters. He's simply Bruce Wayne. He watched his parents murdered years
ago. He vowed to destroy crime and protect the innocent. Now what continuity
destroys the very essence of the Doctor? Is it Grace 1999? No, because he's
still the Doctor. He's still an alien renegade Time Lord. He just happens to
be half-human. What about Virgin continuity? Is he the Doctor? No. He's the
Other.
I hope this explains why.
>And were you satisfed with the TV series >before >you learned the Doctor was
half-human?
Yep, but I never liked the loom, and I always thought he had parents. Now I
accept that he has parents. Human mother and Time Lord father.
Dangermouse
Rayctate <rayc...@aol.com> wrote
> Regarding characterization, making the Doctor half-human is beautiful.
Unimaginative.
It's better to say that this far superior being finds something more worthy
in humanity...
> Half-human has a long and honorable tradition in the halls of heroes
You mean it's a flogged-to-death cliche.
>
> It also makes each victory of his more thrilling. His being half-human
and
> less of the all powerful Time Lord means that he had to work harder to
win
No, not really.
You can imagine I disagree with the rest of the post.
But then, I can't be arsed with the Loom crap either...
Robbie Moubert
<rayc...@aol.com> writes
.....a whole lot of stuff I wish I'd said.
Nice one Ray.
--
Robbie Moubert
Daibhid Cheinnedelh
"Jean-Marc Lofficier" <jean...@starwatcher.org> wrote:
>
> Richard Rogers wrote in message ...
> >The Doctor is certainly not human as the Fourth Doctor gets very
> >offended
> >when called a human (can't remember the story) and the Seventh Doctor
> >uses
> >Humans as an insult (Remembrance Of The Daleks).
> >
> Well now, in the good ol' South, a man with some African-American
> ancestry
> but who looked white enough to, er, pass himself off as white (a
> ridiculous
> concept) in white society would react exactly the same way, and what
> dos
> that rove?
It proves that typical deep South white is a bigot. The Doctor ain't. He
also likes humans better than Time Lords, so if he's going to be
embarrassed about his ancestry...
--
Dave, who's half-Pict, on his mother's side (according to her)
The opinions above are a product of my memes and
do not necessarily correspond to my own.
Libroid of EU Skiffysoc http://www.ed.ac.uk/~sesoc
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Daibhid Cheinnedelh
"Ice" <ic...@SPAMvirginNOTHANKS.net> wrote:
>
> J2rider wrote in message
<19990910214252...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
> >
> ><<<And thinks it's in the TARDIS rather than on Gallifrey
> >>>>
> >
> >Apparently it's been moved or this is a "trick" Eye or something.
But the
> >Master and the Doc call it the Eye. Oh but you are thinking maybe
the
> Master
> >is going bonkers too and not in his right mind. Right? Perhaps.
>
> Being moved? I thought it was a link to the eye of harmony which gives
the
> Tardis its power and not the actual Eye of harmony.
>
Yeah, that's what I thought. But it can't be, because ACTUAL TELEVISED
DIALOGUE states that it is the One True Eye. Actual televised dialogue
is always right, except when the Doctor says he's not human.
Incidentally, there seems to be a problem with my server. I try to go
further down this thread, and I just get the same three or four
arguments over and over...
--
Dave, who wonders if the Master is half Dalek on his mothers side (COFD)
Daibhid Cheinnedelh
j2r...@aol.com (J2rider) wrote:
> Wrong. There is that EYE thing which opens only for Chang Lee and
>Grace...and obviously the Doctor. :) :) :)
>
Of course! I can see it now...
1ST TIME LORD TECHNICIAN: Y'see, Dreegam, Omega's sacrifice was all very
well, but wouldn't it be better if TARDISes had an on-board Eye.
2ND TIME LORD TECHNICIAN: Not a bad idea, Vleromagabarameronar. I'll
suggest it to the Lord President.
VLEROMA: Weeell, I was thinking of testing it first. We could fit it to
a renegade's TARDIS.
DREEGAM: Okay, how about the Doctor? Wait, can we trust a renegade with
that sort of power?
VLEROMA: Good point. Maybe we could make it so Gallifreyans can't access
it totally. But we need someone to access it, or what's the point.
DREEGAM: How about tying it to human retina patterns?
VLEROMA: Good idea! You can always trust a human not to interfere with
technology above their level, can't you?
It all makes sense now!
--
Dave, who's losing the thread (literally and metephorically)
Daibhid Cheinnedelh
rayc...@aol.com (Rayctate) wrote:
> Regarding characterization, making the Doctor half-human is beautiful.
>It
> gives him resonance. The Doctor being half-human means that this
>mongrel, this
> antithesis of Dalek philosophy has beaten them over and over again.
>
Starr responded to this, so I'll leave it.
> Half-human has a long and honorable tradition in the halls of heroes.
It's
> fitting that the Doctor be welcomed among them to once more re-invent
the
> archetype.
>
> It also makes each victory of his more thrilling. His being
>half-human and
> less of the all powerful Time Lord means that he had to work harder to
>win.
And these all powerful Time Lords would be...? Are they any relation to
the bickering, impotent college dons we see in the series?
> Half-human, unlike the loom, unlike the Other, negates nothing that
has gone
> before.....All the other contrivances regarding his origins, for the
reasons I
> have already given takes a whacking great sledge hammer and shatters
the
> continuity of the series proper. Half-human does not. Half-human
respects the
> series.
How do the other theories do this?
>
> The spirit of the show has always been one of nonconformity. The
>Doctor is a
> renegade. Even before the writers established the Time Lords as his
>people,
> they established that he and Susan were "exiles." By making him
>half-human,
> you further reinforce this idea....The Doctor and Susan's human
>heritage
> explains why they are considered exiles. The heritage explains why he
>is
> treated so shabbily by his people throughout the series proper.
>
Except when they make him Lord President, obviously.
> Being half-human makes the Doctor a man of two worlds. He can pass as
>a human
> on earth, but he exhibits quirks that identify him as unearthly. He
>can never
> fit into Time Lord society, and yet they cannot deny that part of him
is
> theirs. Being half-human makes him an outsider everywhen he travels.
>Because
> of his loyalties to no one race, he can choose sides. If a war erupts
between
> humans and Time Lords, which side to you think he will support? The
>side of the
> innocent! If the humans invade Gallifrey somehow, he will turn them
>away. If
> the Time Lords are going "to put an ancient culture like the earth to
>the
> sword," he will not hesitate to fight them. He will do these things
>because he
> is forever an outsider. He's half-human.
I'd rather believe he was a renegade and crusader because of the choices
he made, rather than it all being mapped out in his genes.
>
> "Doctor Who 1996" reestablishes what we knew that the Doctor is
>unique. He's
> not the godlike reincarnation of the Other with the super powers that
>Jim
> Mortimore bequeaths to him. He doesn't "lower his perceptions" to
>play with
> and use humans. This concept totally rails against the series proper.
>In fact
> this is how his enemies on numerous occasions rationalize the Doctor's
>love for
> humans. They're all wrong. The Doctor's love for humanity is an
>honest one.
> The Doctor is the underestimated pawn, within the game, that travels
>the
> straight and narrow, attacking when you least expect it, to become a
>knight.
> He's master of the bluff, and when the player on the other side sees
>through
> his ruse, he's the arch-adapter, desperate jury-rigger of devices that
>are
> likely to get the job done but explode in his face. What better way
>to express
> such a dual nature of brilliance and buffoonery than make him
>half-human?
>
By not making him half human, and just saying that's who he is?
Oh, joy. I really can't imagine anything I'd like more in a science
fiction TV series or book. (This is sarcasm, by the way).
>
> With the loom, Time Lords have no youth. They're essentially sexless
>gourds
> and totally alien to our understanding. This is not what the series is
about.
>
Of course not. No alien cultures we can't recognise as human here,
please.
You've never read the stories about the Spirit of Gotham, Bruce's viking
ancestor the Bat Man, or the Aztec Bat god then?
The Doctor I believe in is an alien who would sacrifice himself for
another race. That is truly noble. Now we know he was just thinking of
one of his own races. It's all just selfish gene stuff.
>
> I hope this explains why.
>
> >And were you satisfed with the TV series >before >you learned the
Doctor was
> half-human?
>
> Yep, but I never liked the loom, and I always thought he had parents.
Now I
> accept that he has parents. Human mother and Time Lord father.
So you "accept" something you always thought? That's big of you.
--
Dave, who had no objection to the Doctor being half human until he read
Ray's dissertations on the subject.
I. Inayat
>audio play or comic strip need mention it ever again. They of course can,
>but there's no requirement.
They have......Been paying attention to your DWM lately?
>Regarding characterization, making the Doctor half-human is beautiful. It
>gives him resonance. The Doctor being half-human means that this mongrel,
>this antithesis of Dalek philosophy has beaten them over and over again.
Errr....this is a little odd. I understand the point you're making
(multi-culturalism vs. fascism) , but the Doc's always championed diversity
over singularity. He's been their antithesis in his philosophy, and that
doesn't depend on his heritage.
>Half-human has a long and honorable tradition in the halls of heroes. It's
>fitting that the Doctor be welcomed among them to once more re-invent the
>archetype.
Well, yes.......as long as the archetype is reinvented. If it isn't, then it
becomes a cliche. Which is the problem a lot of people have with it.......
Oh, it occurred to me: The oldest manifestations of the 'half-human' idea
were defined in other terms than 'half-human'. Demigod, changeling.....
defining them in terms of the otherworld.
>It also makes each victory of his more thrilling. His being half-human and
>less of the all powerful Time Lord means that he had to work harder to win.
<Bzzzt> You're making the assumption that 'Time Lord' is a species, not a
position. The fact is, we don't know _what_ he got from either side; whether
his human side lessens what he would have been originally, strengthens it,
has no effect on it, or alters it, in unexpected ways......
(Oh yes...You're assuming his dad was Gallifreyan. He lived on Gallifrey;
doesn't mean he couldn't have emigrated from somewhere.....)
>He had to be smarter because he learned rather than was given more. He
>had to be more cunning because he learned how to be a cagey opponent, >and
here's how I phrased it some months ago. Some amendments have >been added.
<Bzzt> again. Argument from silence. We don't know if other Time Lords are
smarter, or more cunning, than the Doctor.
>Half-human, unlike the loom, unlike the Other, negates nothing that has
>gone before.....
How do the loom and the Other negate what had gone before? The Doc had
talked about his family, but never his parents. And I have a complex theory
wherein Susan _is_ his granddaughter, not the Other's........yet there's a
reason the Doctor didn't recognise her in 'Lungbarrow'.......(and it isn't
because 'Lungbarrow' never happened, either.....)
>All the other contrivances regarding his origins, for the reasons I have
>already given takes a whacking great sledge hammer and shatters the
>continuity of the series proper. Half-human does not. Half-human respects
>the series.
To be honest, Ray: The series only really concerned itself with continuity
in the '80s. It became obsessed with continuity. And that helped end it.
UNIT dating is set in the '70s, '80s & '90s. The Doctor's human, alien &
half-human. Atlantis was destroyed three times, there are two Loch Ness
Monsters.....
The books couldn't do anything worse to the series than the series itself
did.
'Respects the continuity of the series'. Which series? The earthbound early
70s? The dark McCoy years? The brash, brilliant, sometimes brutal Colin
Baker era?
*Any* theory about the Doctor's origins takes a whacking great sledgehammer
to the continuity........including half-human *and* the Looms. It's a matter
of choosing which parts of continuity you want to keep, and you've chosen
not to include the Looms in yours.
>The spirit of the show has always been one of nonconformity. The Doctor is
>a renegade. Even before the writers established the Time Lords as his
>people, they established that he and Susan were "exiles." By making him
>half-human, you further reinforce this idea....
Ray....the original idea was that they were *refugees* from some great
disaster. _That_ isn't non-conformity.
The original conception of the Doctor had him as a _reactionary_, not a
non-conformist. (Gary Gillatt's 'From A to Z')
Non-conformity=that the Doctor has never conformed to the society he dwells
in, yes?
No, half-human doesn't reinforce the idea. It only does so if you assume
that it was part of the reason he left. Leaving because you're bored (The
War Games) does not depend on half-human.....And why do the other renegades
leave? Are they half-human? Or is the renegade reasoning different for
eachone?
>The Doctor and Susan's human heritage explains why they are considered
>exiles. The heritage explains why he is treated so shabbily by his people
>throughout the series proper.
<sighs> Ray, it only explains why they're considered exiles if you want it
to. I mean, I can deduce from the series that the Time Lords were glad to
see the back of him 'cause he was a troublemaker, which wouldn't have
anything to do with his being half-human. We don't know how the Time Lords
treat their hybrids, and we can't deduce from the Doctor that this is how
they treat _all_ their hybrids. We don't even know that they treat him like
this because he's half-human. The Master's aware that there can be hybrids,
but I wouldn't say _his_ perception of the Doctor is one shared by all Time
Lords.
Oh yes. Ray. as you said above, part of the show's spirit is nonconformity.
The Time Lords are one of the most _conformist_ societies in the series. The
Doctor, the Master, the Rani; none of then conform. And only one of them is
half-human.
Besides, they also made him President...And they've recognised he's saved
Gallifrey over and over again.
>Being half-human makes the Doctor a man of two worlds. He can pass as a
>human on earth, but he exhibits quirks that identify him as unearthly. He
>can never fit into Time Lord society, and yet they cannot deny that part of
>him is theirs. Being half-human makes him an outsider everywhen he
travels.
True. You've got this bit down (and it's something most who have used the
idea have touched on). Of course, we originally thought it was
acculteration....
>Because of his loyalties to no one race, he can choose sides. If a war
>erupts between humans and Time Lords, which side to you think he will
>support? The side of the innocent!
If you mean those caught in the crossfire, then yes, he will. As Terrance
has it, 'He is a man of peace who is caught up in violent events'.
If you mean that one of the sides is innocent......
Yes, he has loyalties to no one race, and that is because of his position as
an outsider. But does being half-human make him an outsider? We can't say.
You can, but the Doctor wouldn't say that. He'd (probably) say that there
were many things which made him an outsider....
> If the humans invade Gallifrey somehow, he will turn them away. If the
>Time Lords are going "to put an ancient culture like the earth to the
>sword," he will not hesitate to fight them. He will do these things
>because he is forever an outsider. He's half-human.
Ray, being half-human != an outsider.
He will stop them because he loathes tyranny, and war, and needless death.
Because he realises that you can, sometimes, act in history.That injustice
and hatred need to be fought. _None_ of these are consequent on him being
half-human. _All_ of them are consequent on who the Doctor is as a person.
And we don't know what, if any, effect being half-human has had on him.
>"Doctor Who 1996" reestablishes what we knew that the Doctor is unique.
Funny, I thought that the McCoy years went some way to doing that as
well....
And why do you call it that? It sounds like 'Battlestar Galactica
1980'.......
>He's not the godlike reincarnation of the Other with the super powers that
>Jim Mortimore bequeaths to him. He doesn't "lower his perceptions" to
>play with and use humans.
Ray, a few points. Jim's never said that the Doctor's abilities come from
being the reincarnation of the Other. He _has_ said, in 'Beltempest', which
you missed IIRC, that the Doctor has parents. (and he _doesn't_ do anything
nasty to them. Nor do any of the other writers who've used the Doc's
parents.)
The only 'super power' I recall Jim giving the Doctor is his healing trance.
And he learned that off a human. (Remember? The one from 'The Abominable
Snowmen'? Padmasambhava? Who was several hundred years old himself.....)
And he never said 'lowering his perceptions'. He said 'compressing his
sensory input to human normal.' To me, that sounds like someone who's
fascinated by humans, who's curious about them, and wants to know how they
see the world.
Keep in mind that it's 4th Doctor we're talking about here. The reasons he
gives are sometimes joking.......
The movie establishes the Doctor's perceptions aren't human. So does Jim
Mortimore. What is the contradiction?
(And a point that needed to be said. WE DON'T KNOW what the Other was
capable of. What abilities he had. Who's to say that whilst some of the
Doc's memories come from the Other, his abilities come from the human/alien
mix?)
> This concept totally rails against the series proper. In fact this is how
>his enemies on numerous occasions rationalize the Doctor's love for humans.
Really? They actually believe he hangs around with humans to use and play
with them? Where?
>They're all wrong. The Doctor's love for humanity is an honest one.
Ray, think about this. There are humans who behave as you claim Jim
Mortimore makes the Doctor behave.
Yes, it is honest. But that doesn't mean it comes from being half-human. And
it doesn't mean he always cares for all humans. And it doesn't mean that
we'd be able to describe all of what a Time Lord would see as love. We're
not able to describe it for ourselves (!)
('Beltempest' - one of the more humanistic portrayals of the Doctor, IMO)
He's an alien. We need to be reminded of that from time to time.
>The Doctor is the underestimated pawn, within the game, that travels the
>straight and narrow, attacking when you least expect it, to become a
>knight. He's master of the bluff, and when the player on the other side
>sees through his ruse, he's the arch-adapter, desperate jury-rigger of
>devices that are likely to get the job done but explode in his face. What
>betterway to express such a dual nature of brilliance and buffoonery than
> make him half-human?
Huh? I'm not sure whether to be flattered or insulted.
Did you ever read the 'Professor Branestawm' books?
And besides, it's always in the nature of the Trickster to be a brilliant
buffoon (or a buffoon of a brilliant person). That's the point; the Doctor
is a Trickster. And those who parallel him in myth and legend aren't
half-human (hell, some of them aren't even human...)
Being half-human is an aspect of who the Doctor is, and one he sometimes
draws upon.
>The loom is a cheesy plot device that has absolutely no dramatic impact.
>It's just another irritating artificial reproductive aid that reinforces
>the erroneous idea that the Doctor has been chaste all his life.
Ray, did you ever read 'Infinity Doctors'? In there is a Doctor who had
parents, was married, and who had naturally-born children, yet who was
Loom-born. On a sterile world like Gallifrey, having naturally-born kids is
quite surprising. (Oh yes. The Loom does have a dramatic impact, and lends
part of that impact to 'TID'. For in the wake of the Loom, it was decided
that those born of the womb would be killed........) Not entirely what could
be termed an irritating plot device.
In 'TID' we see the Doctor in relationships. Yet he was still Loom-born. And
the current books draw on that.
Or, if you have read it, you don't feel it links to our Doctor. The current
authors don't think that way.
(Even if you feel it's an 'Elseworlds' story, be aware the author doesn't.
And if you switched off at the first Virgin reference, don't worry; it soon
moves beyond that.....)
>Mr. Blum, who likes to give the loom a big wet kiss, doesn't buy this so
>there are exceptions that prove the rule,
Ray, Jon Blum has taken part in the writing of some of the most sensual
scenes for the Doctor I've ever read, but since you're not going to read
'Unnatural History', this is a moot point. He also accepts 'The Infinity
Doctors', which states that the Doctor was married and had kids the 'old
fashioned' way, that he had parents, and that he was Loom-born.
You see this as a contradiction. Not everyone else does.
Jon Blum has written of a Doctor who had parents and was Loom-born. You've
said the two are irreconcilable, but don't you want to find out how he pulls
that off?
>but most of the fans today would like to explain away Susan as just another
>companion since she's the only physical evidence that the Doctor has at
>least one time in his life made love to a woman, and Lungbarrow does that,
Well, actually, there's this little book called 'The Infinity Doctors' which
features the Doctor's pregnant wife, and suggests the Doctor has sex......
> but Grace 1999 gives the Doctor a human mother and a Time Lord
>father.
<Bzzzt> Unwarranted assumption; who said the Doc's dad was a Time Lord?
>Half-human reinforces that Susan is his granddaughter because the Doctor
>can have a family; the Doctor is a continuation of a blood-line. Grace 1999
>adds to the two characters, I always assumed existed, in his history.
Ray, _in the name of Rassilon, read 'Infinity Doctors' _.
>You have the potential to meet them. You have the potential to look back
>on the Doctor's youth--as on occasion the series does. You have the
>potential of including flashbacks where the Doctor stuffs a big cinammon
>sugar cookie into his mouth and sits upon his mother's lap while she sings
>to him.
Lemme see.....'Beltempest', 'The Infinity Doctors', 'Unnatural History',
'Matrix', 'The Hollow Men', 'The Blue Angel'...........Yeah, we have all
three of those.
>With the loom, Time Lords have no youth. They're essentially sexless
>gourds and totally alien to our understanding. This is not what the series
>is about.
Ray......We _see_ the Doctor's childhood in 'Infinity Doctors', in 'Matrix',
in 'Unnatural History'. (hell, even in 'Lungbarrow'.) Even with the Loom,
Time Lords still have a childhood.
'Lungbarrow' tells us Time Lords have a libido. So does 'Infinity Doctors'.
So does 'Cold Fusion'.
What makes them alien to our understanding is that they've been around for
ten million years, they've mastered time travel and they have near-absolute
power.
The series is about many things. And the Time Lords' sexuality (or lack of
it) is part of the mythology of the series.
>Making the Doctor the Other is a slap in the face at the series. Consider
>this. Bob Kane created Batman. Batman is a human vigilante who strives
>for his victories against crime. Now, suppose some idiot author decided
>that he didn't like that. Suppose this imbecile decided that he was going
>to make Batman a reincarnation of somebody else. Such an act would be one
>of utter hubris. This would mean that every action in the past, present
>and future of the Batman is not attributable to the character Bob Kane
>created but to the author's new retcon which he retroactively has slipped
>into the continuity.
Actually, there's an 'Elseworlds' that, I think, does something similar....
Ray, one fact about reincarnation you've missed: The memories carry over.
However, the reincarnated person. whilst they may have memories and traits
of their previous incarnation, is _not the same person as the previous
incarnation_. They're a different person altogether.
The existing person, _not the previous incarnation_, is responsible for what
that person's doing at the moment.
In your idea, the retcon could be used to build on the Batman's myth.
Oh yes. Didn't they do something similar to the Swamp Thing? Alan Moore, I
think, was the writer......
(and there's that 'tweak' to the origin of Wesley Dodds, the original
Sandman, which Neil Gaiman introduced. Got used as a thematic thread in
'Sandman Mystery Theatre', IIRC.......)
>Now, DC would never do this. They respect and recognize what makes their
>heroes great. That's why Batman will always be the most human of their
>characters. He's simply Bruce Wayne. He watched his parents murdered
>years ago. He vowed to destroy crime and protect the innocent.
Well, actually, isn't it more that both Bruce Wayne and Batman are masks
themselves?
>Now what continuity destroys the very essence of the Doctor? Is it Grace
>1999? No, because he's still the Doctor. He's still an alien renegade Time
>Lord. He just happens to be half-human. What about Virgin continuity? Is
>he the Doctor? No. He's the Other.
Ray, do you know anyone who believes in reincarnation? 'Cause I think you
need to have a long talk about this with someone who understands it. I
don't, not clearly, but to me it's something like:-
The Doctor != The Other
The Doctor = own personality + own memories + own experiences + X (where X
is any number of unknown variables) + some of Other's memories
>I hope this explains why.
And these are my comments......
Imran '....grief....' Inayat
Rayctate
>
>Nice one Ray.
Thanks, Robbie.
Rayctate
Look, if it makes you feel any better, even had Phil Segal and Matt Jacobs not
introduced half-human into the Doctor Who series, I would still argue that the
Doctor had parents and was at one time a boy (Black Orchid). I would still
argue that the other reincarnation story and the loom are unnecessarily
convulted artifices lacking any hint of dramatic potential.
>You can imagine I disagree with the rest of the post.
>But then, I can't be arsed with the Loom crap >either...
This means you don't like the loom, right?
>It's better to say that this far superior being finds >something more worthy
in humanity...
I had nothing against that. It's served the show well over thirty-five years,
but half-human was introduced. It's there. He's "half-human, on his mother's
side." He's always been half-human, and if canonicity were a matter choice,
and the choice is half-human or looms. Half-human wins all the way. You can't
cross-stitch any half-decent story out of the loom. You can as Phil Segal and
Matt Jacobs have shown from half-human, and the theme pertaining to the Doctor
still has the potential for more stories.
>> Half-human has a long and honorable tradition in >the halls of heroes
>You mean it's a flogged-to-death cliche.
I think there's a difference between mythic tradition and cliche'. You don't.
That's cool. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Mustafa Hirji
for pure Time-Lords?
Adam Richards
<D.M.K...@sms.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <19990910214507...@ng-fd1.aol.com>,
> j2r...@aol.com (J2rider) wrote:
>
>> Wrong. There is that EYE thing which opens only for Chang Lee and
>>Grace...and obviously the Doctor. :) :) :)
>>
>Of course! I can see it now...
>
>1ST TIME LORD TECHNICIAN: Y'see, Dreegam, Omega's sacrifice was all very
>well, but wouldn't it be better if TARDISes had an on-board Eye.
>
>2ND TIME LORD TECHNICIAN: Not a bad idea, Vleromagabarameronar. I'll
>suggest it to the Lord President.
>
>VLEROMA: Weeell, I was thinking of testing it first. We could fit it to
>a renegade's TARDIS.
>
>DREEGAM: Okay, how about the Doctor? Wait, can we trust a renegade with
>that sort of power?
>
>VLEROMA: Good point. Maybe we could make it so Gallifreyans can't access
>it totally. But we need someone to access it, or what's the point.
>
>DREEGAM: How about tying it to human retina patterns?
>
>VLEROMA: Good idea! You can always trust a human not to interfere with
>technology above their level, can't you?
Bats the TVM into the canon-cupboard marked "Spoof sketches, Comic
strips, fan videos and annual stories" pretty succinctly, that does.
<cue foaming fulminations from rabid TVM fans. hah hah!>
======================================================
Adam Richards Ad...@roblang.demon.co.uk
edjefferson
>
> If the Doctor is half-human, why was he able to become Lord-President? Isn't that position reserved
> for pure Time-Lords?
The Doctor isn't supposed to be half-human half-TL, but half-human half
gallifreyan. Not all gallifreyans are Time Lords, they have to earn what
is effectively just a title.
Or something.
--
Ed Jefferson
"The BBC, it's not just shit, it's your shit."
Chris Rednour
> On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:38:20 GMT, Daibhid Cheinnedelh
> <D.M.K...@sms.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >In article <19990910214507...@ng-fd1.aol.com>,
> > j2r...@aol.com (J2rider) wrote:
> >
> >> Wrong. There is that EYE thing which opens only for Chang Lee and
> >>Grace...and obviously the Doctor. :) :) :)
> >>
> >Of course! I can see it now...
> >
> >1ST TIME LORD TECHNICIAN: Y'see, Dreegam, Omega's sacrifice was all very
> >well, but wouldn't it be better if TARDISes had an on-board Eye.
> >
> >2ND TIME LORD TECHNICIAN: Not a bad idea, Vleromagabarameronar. I'll
> >suggest it to the Lord President.
> >
> >VLEROMA: Weeell, I was thinking of testing it first. We could fit it to
> >a renegade's TARDIS.
> >
> >DREEGAM: Okay, how about the Doctor? Wait, can we trust a renegade with
> >that sort of power?
> >
> >VLEROMA: Good point. Maybe we could make it so Gallifreyans can't access
> >it totally. But we need someone to access it, or what's the point.
> >
> >DREEGAM: How about tying it to human retina patterns?
> >
> >VLEROMA: Good idea! You can always trust a human not to interfere with
> >technology above their level, can't you?
>
> Bats the TVM into the canon-cupboard marked "Spoof sketches, Comic
> strips, fan videos and annual stories" pretty succinctly, that does.
Not really. The thing that never makes sense to me about people wondering
about the eye of harmoney thing is this, if the eye is openable, and if
the Doctor is half-human with a human retinal pattern, and taking into
account things like how supposedly the TARDIS door lock could be opened
only by certain people using the key, or how the controls could supposedly
be set to only work for certain people, then certainly it makes sense that
the eye's controls could be made to do similar things, to be openable by
the TARDIS "pilot" who happens to have a human retinal pattern? [And by
extension other humans as well].
> <cue foaming fulminations from rabid TVM fans. hah hah!>
Well, how about a reasonable [IMO] point instead? :)
-Chris Rednour
_________________________________________________________________
Nyctolops
Hirji) wrote:
>If the Doctor is half-human, why was he able to become Lord-President? Isn't that position reserved
>for pure Time-Lords?
The Doctor got to be Lord President by running against Goth. When
Goth died, the Doctor won the election by default. I got the definite
impression that quite a few Time Lords weren't very happy about it. I
do still go with the theory that the Doctor was all Gallifreyan until
his seventh regeneration. The eighth Doctor is the only one who is
half-human.
Daibhid Cheinnedelh
Chris Rednour <gs0...@panther.Gsu.EDU> wrote:
> Not really. The thing that never makes sense to me about people
>wondering
> about the eye of harmoney thing is this, if the eye is openable, and
>if
> the Doctor is half-human with a human retinal pattern, and taking into
> account things like how supposedly the TARDIS door lock could be
>opened
> only by certain people using the key, or how the controls could
>supposedly
> be set to only work for certain people, then certainly it makes sense
>that
> the eye's controls could be made to do similar things, to be openable
>by
> the TARDIS "pilot" who happens to have a human retinal pattern? [And
>by
> extension other humans as well].
Yeah, but supposedly it works "better" for Chang, because he's fully
human (I think, it's been a while). So if this is all the Doctor's
doing, why not program it to respond to half human retina patterns?
Indeed, given that everyone's retina patterns are unique, why not set it
to *his* retina patterns? Because then Chang wouldn't be able to open
it. Plot expediency, like so much of the TVM.
--
Dave, who's half-Falkirkian, on his father's side.
Daibhid Cheinnedelh
"I. Inayat" <ti...@stubbs59.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
...a lot of stuff that would have been in my post yesterday if I'd been
capable of thinking it all through.
Congrats.
--
Dave, who will now re-read InfiniDocs
David Furlong
: In article <7rcf7e$oca$1...@the-fly.zip.com.au>,
: jb...@zipper.zip.com.au (Jonathan Blum) wrote:
: > In article <7raouu$o9c$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
: > David Brider <da...@dwjbrider.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
: > >Rayctate wrote in message <19990909234259.29657.00007118@ng-
: fk1.aol.com>...
: >
: > >>As I stated before, the Doctor has genes that code for human eyes.
: > >>That is why the fifth Doctor's eyesight is defective: subject to
: > >>mutation. Even the Master at the end of his regenerative cycle can
: > >>see perfectly. No Time Lord save the Doctor wore glasses in the
: > >>series...
: >
: > >Excuse me, but how many Time Lords were we introduced to in the
: > >series? Not enough to make this sort of argument from silence in
: > >any way meaningful, I'll wager.
: >
: > Especially since Chronotis wears reading glasses, IIRC.
: It's implied Chronotis was the Doctor at the end.
I must have missed that...
: M. Blake
: --
: History is not half human.
: Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
: Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
David F.
J2rider
side and the Loom on the other, insist never the twain shall meet -- and
the series will continue to dance gleefully on both sides of the line at
once. :-)>>>>
Miring in its own puke perhaps? Never getting anywhere?
J2rider
>>>>"I'm not human". The 4th Doctor. Pyramids of Mars.
>>>
Liar, liar, pants on fire...
J2rider
TERROR OF THE ZYGONS...
J2rider
VISITATION
He is not an Earthling and doesn't consider himself one...therefore he doesn't
consider himself a human from Earth...but why is it that other aliens can
conceive and have babies and not be human...DELTA for one but the Doctor has to
be part of a friggin loom?