Why the Hulk is My New Favorite Character
Johanna Draper Carlson
The Hulk is wandering through a forest with a goofy grin on his face.
Suddenly, a tree sneaks up behind him (no, really) and wraps its branches
around his neck. While pounding on the tree, the Hulk yells the following
soliliquy:
"Even here -- even in peaceful forest -- they will not leave Hulk alone!
Wherever Hulk goes, enemies follow him -- try to hurt him!
Why? Hulk does not know! All Hulk does know is --
When enemies attack, Hulk fights back -- and smashes -- HUH?
Is not enemy -- is tree! Hulk is attacked by -- tree??
Wha --? Now other trees attack Hulk -- and rocks -- flying rocks!
Hulk is confused -- doesn't understand!
Hulk LIKED trees. Hulk LIKED rocks.
Hulk thought they were his friends -- Hulk's ONLY friends --
But if peaceful forest attacks Hulk, too -- then Hulk has no friends --
and Hulk will crush anything that gets in Hulk's way!
Do you hear Hulk, rocks?
Do you hear Hulk, trees?
Leave Hulk ALONE -- or Hulk will make you REGRET it!"
But it's the caption that's the clincher. Over a particularly nice panel of
Hulk getting smacked in the face by a flying rock, we read:
"But the Green Goliath's maddened words fall on deaf ears.
In fact, they fall on no ears, save his own.
Rocks and trees are notoriously hard of hearing."
At this point, I was rolling on the floor. This was priceless!
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: Akiko, Supernatural Law, Green Lantern, Superman
Michael Alan Chary
KurtBusiek <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote:
>>>At this point, I was rolling on the floor. This was priceless!>>
>
>encounter with some hunters in the Gerber run -- but luckily for you, he did
>have a decent-length run on HULK.
>
>He starts with #179, and sticks around 'til #220 -- though the last three
>issues are dialogued by Roger Stern.
>
>You'll probably enjoy the book -- when Sal Buscema takes over the art in #194,
>it's like getting those DEFENDERS issues without the pesky intrusion of the
>other characters.
Hulk versus the Thunderstorm in Coober Skeeber, the Marvel Benefit issue,
is also a worthwhile, though not humorous.
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC
"I bought the Star Trek chess set and the Civil War chess set. Now I have
the South fight the Klingons." -- Dave Spensley
"Ipsa scientia potestas est." -- Roger Bacon
KurtBusiek
Len didn't write many DEFENDERS -- though I think you'll enjoy the Hulk's
encounter with some hunters in the Gerber run -- but luckily for you, he did
have a decent-length run on HULK.
He starts with #179, and sticks around 'til #220 -- though the last three
issues are dialogued by Roger Stern.
You'll probably enjoy the book -- when Sal Buscema takes over the art in #194,
it's like getting those DEFENDERS issues without the pesky intrusion of the
other characters.
kurt
Bill Kte'pi
[snip]
> But it's the caption that's the clincher. Over a particularly nice panel of
> Hulk getting smacked in the face by a flying rock, we read:
> "But the Green Goliath's maddened words fall on deaf ears.
> In fact, they fall on no ears, save his own.
> Rocks and trees are notoriously hard of hearing."
> At this point, I was rolling on the floor. This was priceless!
I don't think I've -ever- liked the Hulk as much as I do in his Defenders
appearances. Peter David's Hulk is, in my mind, essentially a different
character - like the two Green Lanterns (well, when there were two).
If you're making your way through the Defenders (as it sounded, from your
Omegatron post), you're in for a treat.
--
----
Bill Kte'pi // bwk...@hampshire.edu // http://ktepi.freeservers.com
moc.srevreseerf.ipetk\\:ptth \\ude.erihspmah@39kFkwb \\ Still Kte'pi
KurtBusiek
also a worthwhile, though not humorous.>>
Aside from the cover to that issue (to which I own the pencils!), that's the
best piece in the book. It made me seek out more of Kochalka's work.
kurt
Michael Alan Chary
KurtBusiek <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote:
>>>Hulk versus the Thunderstorm in Coober Skeeber, the Marvel Benefit issue, is
>also a worthwhile, though not humorous.>>
>
>Aside from the cover to that issue (to which I own the pencils!), that's the
>best piece in the book. It made me seek out more of Kochalka's work.
Actually, I think you mentioned that last time we talked in person. (Not
owning the cover art, but that you liked those two pieces.)
I actually thought the X-men piece and the Dr. Strange story had some
merit.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> I don't think I've -ever- liked the Hulk as much as I do in his Defenders
> appearances.
It's the only time I've read him in depth, but I can certainly see the
appeal -- he seems to be boiled down to his brutal childlike essence, but
that's treated with a sense of humor.
I just stumbled on another terrific scene: the Sub-Mariner is leaving the
team (again) and Hulk wraps his arm around Nighthawk and says something like
"Fish-Man was Hulk's friend, but now Bird-Face will be Hulk's friend." The
rest of the group is obviously thinking "yeah, yeah, we're all your friends,
Hulk. Yes, he's your friend too. Will you shut up about it now?" It's a nice
commentary on the Hulk's limited grasp of concepts and over-repetition of
same.
> If you're making your way through the Defenders (as it sounded, from your
> Omegatron post), you're in for a treat.
I am. After talking about Marvel Knights, my husband handed me the Defenders
to compare the concepts. I like the older take much better, probably because
it's not so darn serious.
Once I learned to ignore the Bullpen Bulletins, it was smooth sailing. :)
Some of this stuff is just bizarrely amazing. The threats they face! The way
they keep alternating between no team and showing up when Strange calls! I
especially like the Valkyrie, although her origin was one of the creepiest
things I've seen in a while. I had no idea Dr. Strange was such a sadist.
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
"Is not enemy -- is tree! Hulk is attacked by -- tree??
Hulk is confused -- doesn't understand!
Hulk LIKED trees. Hulk LIKED rocks.
Do you hear Hulk, rocks? Do you hear Hulk, trees?
Leave Hulk ALONE -- or Hulk will make you REGRET it!"
-- THE DEFENDERS #12, Len Wein (writer)
Johanna Draper Carlson
> [Wein] starts with #179, and sticks around 'til #220
Are those the "Hulk eats beans" issues? :)
And were they contemporaneous with his DEFENDERS issues?
> You'll probably enjoy the book -- when Sal Buscema takes over the art in #194,
> it's like getting those DEFENDERS issues without the pesky intrusion of the
> other characters.
But I LIKE the other characters. Well, Sub-Mariner has a stick up his butt,
and Strange gets too big for his britches at times, and I really wonder
about Nighthawk's original mask (did he not look in a mirror to see how
stupid the beak looked?), but it wouldn't be the Defenders without everyone
being grumpy most of the time.
Bill Kte'pi
> It's the only time I've read him in depth, but I can certainly see the
> appeal -- he seems to be boiled down to his brutal childlike essence, but
> that's treated with a sense of humor.
He's a big cuddly green guy.
> I just stumbled on another terrific scene: the Sub-Mariner is leaving the
> team (again) and Hulk wraps his arm around Nighthawk and says something like
> "Fish-Man was Hulk's friend, but now Bird-Face will be Hulk's friend." The
> rest of the group is obviously thinking "yeah, yeah, we're all your friends,
> Hulk. Yes, he's your friend too. Will you shut up about it now?" It's a nice
> commentary on the Hulk's limited grasp of concepts and over-repetition of
> same.
I sometimes got the feeling that any given issue of the Defenders could
end the way kids' cartoons used to: the Hulk says something kinda dumb,
and everyone laughs and groans and says, "Oh, Hulk!" while looking in the
general direction of the imaginary camera. Cut to credits and theme song.
> Some of this stuff is just bizarrely amazing. The threats they face! The way
> they keep alternating between no team and showing up when Strange calls! I
> especially like the Valkyrie, although her origin was one of the creepiest
> things I've seen in a while. I had no idea Dr. Strange was such a sadist.
My favorite Defenders cover is "A Piece of Eternity is Missing!"
(70-something, I think - I'm sure someone will know). It's far out stuff.
I mean, it actually makes the term "far out" seem appropriate. The title
definitely went through some less than spectacular phases ... but it more
than balances out in favor of the good stuff.
And Val is pretty much the heart of the team - put Val, Hellcat, and the
Hulk together, and I don't care who else is around, you've got yourself
some Defenders.
SonofWashu
the Dr. Seuss world, Crom's devils, I loved that issue. Right up there with
three ex-X-Men Defenders fighting Frogman.
KurtBusiek
>>Are those the "Hulk eats beans" issues? :)>>
That's in there.
>>And were they contemporaneous with his DEFENDERS issues?>>
More or less. Len's first issue of DEFENDERS predates his first HULK by a
couple of months, I think -- and he doesn't last on DEFENDERS long. So there's
an overlap while he's writing both books, but not for very long.
>> But I LIKE the other characters. >>
I do too. But if you like Len's Hulk, there's a lot more of it -- and a
greater concentration on it -- to be had beyond DEFENDERS.
I enjoyed both series quite a bit, at the time.
kurt
Ross Eron Thompson
Bill Kte'pi wrote:
>
<Big Ol' Snip>
> Peter David's Hulk is, in my mind, essentially a different
> character - like the two Green Lanterns (well, when there were two).
Yeah, like the old Aquaman and Peter David's Aquaman, or the old Supergirl and
Peter David's Supergirl...notice a pattern here? I sometimes get the feeling
that Peter David can't write pre-existing characters without changing them beyond
recognition. (His X-Factor and Captain Marvel were totally different from
previous incarnations as well, but the changes weren't actually his.)
RET
Jaco de Vries
>Len didn't write many DEFENDERS -- though I think you'll enjoy the Hulk's
>encounter with some hunters in the Gerber run -- but luckily for you, he did
>have a decent-length run on HULK.
>
>He starts with #179, and sticks around 'til #220 -- though the last three
>issues are dialogued by Roger Stern.
>
>You'll probably enjoy the book -- when Sal Buscema takes over the art in #194,
>it's like getting those DEFENDERS issues without the pesky intrusion of the
>other characters.
I was wondering if Kurt Busiek would do a new defenders series, which
heroes would he use.
Jaco de Vries
Bill Kte'pi
[in response to when I said]:
You say that like it's a bad thing :) I think it does seem to be a
pattern, but considering the characters he's changed ... I don't know, I
guess it's like the "changes to Cable" argument that had been going on in
xbooks. If you liked the old Aquaman, you might not like PAD's. Ditto
Supergirl. In both cases, though, I think he took flat characters that
were little more than concepts and fleshed them out.
The Hulk ... well, his run on the Hulk is still one of my favorite Marvel
runs (along with Gruenwald's Captain America, Englehart's Defenders,
Ellis's Excalibur, Byrne's FF, and Claremont's first X-Men run). He did a
-lot- with the character, and if there were moments that fell flat (I
never liked the Pantheon), that's to be expected in a, what, 8-10 year
run.
CleV
wrote:
Ooh, ooh, or he could do an Avengers-Defenders War redux in Avengers!
Johanna Draper Carlson
Who pounds on things.
> I sometimes got the feeling that any given issue of the Defenders could
> end the way kids' cartoons used to: the Hulk says something kinda dumb,
> and everyone laughs and groans and says, "Oh, Hulk!" while looking in the
> general direction of the imaginary camera. Cut to credits and theme song.
BWA HA HA!
> And Val is pretty much the heart of the team - put Val, Hellcat, and the
> Hulk together, and I don't care who else is around, you've got yourself
> some Defenders.
Hellcat shows up later? Kewl!
Steve Parker
<joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>Bill Kte'pi <bwk...@stout.hampshire.edu> wrote:
>
>> I don't think I've -ever- liked the Hulk as much as I do in his Defenders
>> appearances.
>
>It's the only time I've read him in depth, but I can certainly see the
>appeal -- he seems to be boiled down to his brutal childlike essence, but
>that's treated with a sense of humor.
>
>I just stumbled on another terrific scene: the Sub-Mariner is leaving the
>team (again) and Hulk wraps his arm around Nighthawk and says something like
>"Fish-Man was Hulk's friend, but now Bird-Face will be Hulk's friend." The
>rest of the group is obviously thinking "yeah, yeah, we're all your friends,
>Hulk. Yes, he's your friend too. Will you shut up about it now?" It's a nice
>commentary on the Hulk's limited grasp of concepts and over-repetition of
>same.
>
>> If you're making your way through the Defenders (as it sounded, from your
>> Omegatron post), you're in for a treat.
>
>I am. After talking about Marvel Knights, my husband handed me the Defenders
>to compare the concepts. I like the older take much better, probably because
>it's not so darn serious.
Have you gotten to the Gerber Defenders yet? I think you'll enjoy
them .
One *SUB*-plot involves the following: Hulk has rescued a fawn he's
named "Bambi" from some hunters. Meanwhile, Nighthawk has been
captured by the badguys (the Headmen) and had his brain removed and
dumped in a bowl. Not a tank or anything. Just a bowl. Chondu the
Mystic's brain has been put into Nighthawk's body and Chondu/Nighthawk
goes to a Defenders meeting. Doc Strange figures this out in seconds
and moves Chondu's mind into Bambi's brain. He then puts Valkeryie's
body's husband's mind into Chondu's brain in Nighthawk's body. And
Gerber pulls this off while not losing track of any other plot point..
There's wonderful characterization, bizarre plots and a sense
of....not wonder exactly....anything goes weirdness while still
coherent-ness that you rarely see anymore.
And Gerber's characterization of Hulk as essentially an out of control
Superbaby is touching and creepy at the same time.
Steve
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Have you gotten to the Gerber Defenders yet?
No, I've gotten through Thomas and Englehart to Wein, but I'm trying to
ration myself. :)
Hey, did fans of the time giggle at the magician with the "Jamaican
incense"?
> I think you'll enjoy them .
I hope so!
> One *SUB*-plot involves the following: Hulk has rescued a fawn he's
> named "Bambi" from some hunters.
Oh, dear, I can already imagine...
> He then puts Valkeryie's
> body's husband's mind into Chondu's brain in Nighthawk's body.
Part of the reason I love comics is because sentences like this happen. :)
> And Gerber's characterization of Hulk as essentially an out of control
> Superbaby is touching and creepy at the same time.
Except Hulk doesn't say "me", unlike Superbaby and Wonder Tot. :)
hurricane Season
>>Hellcat shows up later? Kewl!
As do Moon Knight, Son of Satan, Power Man, and my personal
favorite, the second Red Guardian.
I really think you might like the Red Guardian. She was one of
the most competent female heroes of the seventies in a very
classy, simple costume. Just don't ask what eventually happens
to her...it is revolting beyond description (I really mean this).
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
hurricane Season
The Bozos...Wait for the Bozos.
Bill Kte'pi
> Bill Kte'pi <bwk...@stout.hampshire.edu> wrote:
>>
> Who pounds on things.
Know any big cuddly green guys who don't?
> Hellcat shows up later? Kewl!
Cheez-an-crackers, yeah she does!
Dale Hicks
>
> I just stumbled on another terrific scene: the Sub-Mariner is leaving the
> team (again) and Hulk wraps his arm around Nighthawk and says something like
> "Fish-Man was Hulk's friend, but now Bird-Face will be Hulk's friend." The
> rest of the group is obviously thinking "yeah, yeah, we're all your friends,
> Hulk. Yes, he's your friend too. Will you shut up about it now?"
How to write the Hulk: imagine back to your buddy's last drunken rampage,
and draw your dialogue from that.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
(who doesn't think the trees or the rocks like him, either)
lmer...@my-deja.com
(snip)
> I sometimes get the feeling
> that Peter David can't write pre-existing characters without changing
them beyond
> recognition. (His X-Factor and Captain Marvel were totally different
from
> previous incarnations as well, but the changes weren't actually his.)
>
>
If you go read PAD's Spidey stuff from early in his career, it's
probably the truest to the character that Spidey has been in a long
time, IMO. The Death of Jean DeWolffe is one of my all time favorites,
and makes me think PAD would do a great Daredevil.
Incidentally, in the intro to the TPB of the Death of Jean DeWolffe,
PAD makes it clear that he didn't make the Hulk grey (Al Milgrom did).
Of course, he did make him a leg-breaker and then a terrorist, so I
understand your point.
lee
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
KurtBusiek
would he use.>>
I have no idea if I'd do a new Defenders series -- I'm a little busy these
days, but you never know. But I liked the book up until Gerber left, and kinda
enjoyed it for a while thereafter.
Were I to write the Defenders, I'd have to come up with a decent reason for the
"non-team" concept to function, but I'd probably want to use Doc Strange, Hulk,
Namor, Nighthawk, Hellcat and maybe Valkyrie and the Surfer. No Gargoyle, no
Cloud -- that's not stuff that ever interested me.
kurt
SonofWashu
>Namor, Nighthawk, Hellcat and maybe Valkyrie and the Surfer. No Gargoyle, no
>Cloud -- that's not stuff that ever interested me.
All characters I would buy a book for, and I can see not dealing with Cloud
(ain't he/she/it dead anyhow?), but no Gargoyle? He irritated me in the
Defenders, but the miniseries from the late eighties (I think, maybe early
nineties, or some other time and I'm really confused) was excellent. Sweet
stuff, and permanently quarter-bin fodder; which is cool by me and my thin
wallet.
Rob Hansen
>>>I was wondering if Kurt Busiek would do a new defenders series, which heroes
>would he use.>>
>
>I have no idea if I'd do a new Defenders series -- I'm a little busy these
>days, but you never know. But I liked the book up until Gerber left, and kinda
>enjoyed it for a while thereafter.
Yeah. up 'til #50 I thought it was a great comic, but I gradually lost
interest in it after that.
>
>Were I to write the Defenders, I'd have to come up with a decent reason for the
>"non-team" concept to function, but I'd probably want to use Doc Strange, Hulk,
>Namor, Nighthawk, Hellcat and maybe Valkyrie and the Surfer.
Oh, yes.
>No Gargoyle, no Cloud -- that's not stuff that ever interested me.
Nor me. I'm sure there are people for whom that period of DEFENDERS
was the best, but it just left me cold.
--
Rob Hansen
================================================
My Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/
Feminists Against Censorship:
http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/FAC/
RJDiogenes
>Nor me. I'm sure there are people for whom that period of DEFENDERS
>was the best, but it just left me cold.
>--
No, Gerber was definitely the best, but I liked DeMatteis' Six-Fingered Hand
storyline. Cool Perlin art, too.
CleV
<hurseaso...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
>Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
>>>Hellcat shows up later? Kewl!
>As do Moon Knight, Son of Satan, Power Man, and my personal
>favorite, the second Red Guardian.
>I really think you might like the Red Guardian. She was one of
>the most competent female heroes of the seventies in a very
>classy, simple costume. Just don't ask what eventually happens
>to her...it is revolting beyond description (I really mean this).
You said not to, and yet I'm a-gonna! What did happen to her? (Vague
memories of the seventies lead me to wonder if there was a storyline
featuring her and her husband merging?)
Padguy
>and
>that Peter David can't write pre-existing characters without changing them
>beyond
>recognition.
See, here I thought it was that Peter David took characters who either were in
the sales dumpster or else repeatedly couldn't sustain their own title and made
significant enough changes that they caught readers' imaginations and kept the
series around and healthy.
Hey, kids! Let's drop all those yucky changes Peter David made to Aquaman and
put him back the way he was! And now that he's safely back the way he
was...he's safely cancelled. Hey, kids! Let's make the Hulk dumb again like
he oughtta be! Whoops...sales are tanking. Better change it back to what
Peter David was doing.
Oh, that wacky Peter David. Doesn't know what the hell he's doing.
PAD
Dave Whiteley
made all those changes and ruined all the Star Trek characters in
comic and novel form...
:)
Dave W
BobKinDC
>storyline. Cool Perlin art, too.
>
I liked the Dave Kraft issues, particularly the Scorpio storyline and the
3-issue bit where dozens of heroes tried to join. Not as deep as rthe Gerber
stuff, but it marked a clean break and showed what the team could do without
Dr. Strange's dominating presence.
-----------------
--Bob Kennedy Alexandria, VA
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Johanna Draper Carlson <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>> Bill Kte'pi <bwk...@stout.hampshire.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> He's a big cuddly green guy.
>
>> Who pounds on things.
>
> Know any big cuddly green guys who don't?
You could have stopped after "guys" and the answer would be the same. :)
"Dale Hicks" <dgh...@bellSPAMLESSsouth.net> wrote:
> How to write the Hulk: imagine back to your buddy's last drunken rampage,
> and draw your dialogue from that.
This is such a fun thread! All these wonderfully humorous, creative people!
hurricane Season <hurseaso...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
> Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
>>>Hellcat shows up later? Kewl!
>
> As do Moon Knight, Son of Satan, Power Man, and my personal
> favorite, the second Red Guardian.
I got to Son of Satan... and I was confused. Why is he allowed to call
himself that, but they have to make incantations to Satannish?
Why did anyone think that the devil really needed a superhero for a kid?
And most confusingly, why did they do a picture special on Hitler?
(That last one comes up just because I started seeing fullpage ads for it in
the Son of Satan issues.)
How strange that I've never even HEARD of the Red Guardian. I thought I'd at
least read about most female characters.
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: Akiko, Supernatural Law, Green Lantern, Superman
hurricane Season
>You said not to, and yet I'm a-gonna! What did happen to her?
>(Vague
>memories of the seventies lead me to wonder if there was a
>storyline
>featuring her and her husband merging?)
Okay, you asked for it.
Spoilers for Johanna et al.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
The Red Guardian is called back to the Soviet Union under threat
of repercussions to her family. When she finally gets back, she
is immediately picked up by the KGB and taken to "The Dead Zone"
(I think it was called), a radioactive wasteland in Siberia, to
meet Codename:Sergei, a mysterious scientist whose name is
spoken of in whispers. She is eventually experimented on by
Sergei...atomic bombs explode left and right...the Defenders
come to the rescue only to find that Sergei had become a
radioactive powerhouse now called "The Presence" and the
Guardian is likewise powered up, but both can no longer be
tolerated for long among normal humans due to the radioactivity
the produce.
Tanya rejects the Presence at first, but eventually accepts his
professed love and decides to stay with him. Much later it is
shown that the Presence played mind games with her and forced
her cooperation, basically making this vital, efficient freedom
fighter and accomplished neurosurgeon his love slave.
This is the state of things for second Red Guardian (now
called "Starlight" or "Starshine" or some such nonsense) to this
day...MORE THAN TWENTY YEARS LATER. To make matters worse, the
Presense decided that Tanya wasn't enough woman for him and sent
her to (ready for this?) kidnap Darkstar and the Black Widow to
force these fine Russian women to mate with him. For those of
you who don't know, Darkstar is his DAUGHTER >shudder<.
She came to her senses somewhat and decided not to take Darkstar
to daddy, but professed that she still "loved" him and was going
back to explain why she didn't allow the rape/incest.
CleV
today ...
Kevin J. Maroney
<r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Yeah. up 'til #50 I thought it was a great comic, but I gradually lost
>
>>No Gargoyle, no Cloud -- that's not stuff that ever interested me.
>
>was the best, but it just left me cold.
I thought that Peter Gillis's run (#125-152) was some of the best
comics Marvel was publishing at the time, even with dreadful Don
Perlin art. Not as good as Gillis's _Dr. Strange_ or _Strikeforce:
Morituri_, nor as good as Gerber's run, but still really good. I need
to re-read those one of these years.
--
Kevin Maroney | Crossover Technologies | kmar...@crossover.com
Games are my entire waking life.
Tim
Dave Whiteley <dav...@nospam.direct.ca> wrote in message
news:3948080a...@beta-news.direct.ca...
> Well, if you want to be like that, Mr. david, let's not forget how you
> made all those changes and ruined all the Star Trek characters in
> comic and novel form...
>
> :)
Hmmm...well, that is a matter of opinion. I quite liked the PAD issues of
ST. You could really tell he was a fan of the series. Didn't the series
"tank" AFTER PAD left?
Tim
Tom Galloway
> made all those changes and ruined all the Star Trek characters in
> comic and novel form... :)
It did vary from character to character. Lt. Kathy Li was pretty much dead
on (including causing editor Robert Greenberger to do a double take when
she walked by the DC table at San Diego), but I think giving me red hair
and a shave didn't really speak to my essence. :-)
tyg t...@netcom.com
SonofWashu
>> made all those changes and ruined all the Star Trek characters in
>> comic and novel form...
>>
>> :)
>
>
>ST. You could really tell he was a fan of the series. Didn't the series
>"tank" AFTER PAD left?
I'm praying the post was sarcastic, otherwise we have a genuine idiot making
commentary. I'll take his Trek stuff over the canonical shows at the moment
(how could everything Trek be so damn cool [excusing most of the first movie,
and a length of DS9], only to have Voyager royally screw the entire universe?).
I just hope the rumor-mill is getting all their info on the new supposed Trek
show wrong, or that the makes of that get their heads out of dark and smelly
parts of their anatomy.
Padguy
>made all those changes and ruined all the Star Trek characters in
>comic and novel form...
No, no, no...I couldn't write those characters at all and had to have a whole
different ship and crew of my devising so I wouldn't wreck the existing ones.
PAD
Bill Roper
Johanna Draper Carlson <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>
>I got to Son of Satan... and I was confused. Why is he allowed to call
>himself that, but they have to make incantations to Satannish?
>Why did anyone think that the devil really needed a superhero for a kid?
>And most confusingly, why did they do a picture special on Hitler?
>
>(That last one comes up just because I started seeing fullpage ads for it in
>the Son of Satan issues.)
Satannish predates the Son of Satan. I think the difference is due to a
liberalization of the Comics Code at about that time. Note that Marvel
started doing comics with vampires and werewolves around then.
(But they still had "zuvembies" in the Code-approved books. As opposed
to the unapproved Tales of the Zombie magazine...)
--
Bill Roper, ro...@xnet.com
Dave Whiteley
Dave W
Dave Whiteley
and largely just his novels to be honest.
Dave W
On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 02:51:33 GMT, "Tim" <lost_i...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
>Dave Whiteley <dav...@nospam.direct.ca> wrote in message
>news:3948080a...@beta-news.direct.ca...
>> Well, if you want to be like that, Mr. david, let's not forget how you
>> made all those changes and ruined all the Star Trek characters in
>> comic and novel form...
>>
>> :)
>
>
>Hmmm...well, that is a matter of opinion. I quite liked the PAD issues of
>ST. You could really tell he was a fan of the series. Didn't the series
>"tank" AFTER PAD left?
>
>Tim
>
>
sokol
run of pre-PAD Hulk for comparison, you are welcome to it.
If there was ever a one note character in need of revamping, it was the
pre-PAD HULK.
In essence, good writing mandates some kind of change. So what you are
chastising PAD for is being good at his craft. Neat!
Sokol
Ross Eron Thompson <rt3...@swt.edu> scribbled:
>
>
> Yeah, like the old Aquaman and Peter David's Aquaman, or the old Supergirl
and
> Peter David's Supergirl...notice a pattern here? I sometimes get the
feeling
> that Peter David can't write pre-existing characters without changing them
beyond
Ross Eron Thompson
have loved your work on Hulk and X-Factor. It's just that your takes on
Aquaman and Supergirl were so far from the original concepts that they
may as well have been totally new characters. I won't argue that
Aquaman and the post-Crisis Supergirl weren't in need of retooling, but
I don't think some of the radical changes were necessary. Compare the
Kurt Busiek/George Perez relaunch of Avengers with "The Crossing." In
the former, a top-notch creative team returned the Avengers to greatness
through good storytelling and stellar art without making drastic changes
to the characters themselves, whereas in the latter, there were drastic
changes such as new costumes, "kewl" new characters like <shudder>
Deathcry, revamps of classic characters (Teen Tony, anyone?), pointless
character deaths, and so on. Now, judging from various discussions I've
seen on this ng over the years, I think you would be hard-pressed to
find anyone who prefers "The Crossing" to the Busiek/Perez Avengers.
Why? Because one returned the characters to greatness without
sacrificing their integrity, while the other revamped and retconned them
into something unrecognizable as the Avengers, much like how the current
bearded, hook-handed, "not Arthur Curry Jr." Aquaman and the "Earth
Angel" Supergirl are unrecognizable to fans of the old, orange-shirted,
clean-shaven Aquaman and the old "Matrix" Supergirl. Granted, the old
Aquaman and Supergirl weren't exactly burning up the shelves, but I just
think that someone could have brought those characters back to greatness
without turning them into, for all intents and purpses, totally new
characters. Anyway, that's just my take on things. I'm sure there are
plenty who will disagree with me :)
RET
akhnat...@my-deja.com
hurricane Season <hurseaso...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
> SonofWashu wrote:
> >Ah, Defenders, there's a glory probably never gonna be
> recaptured. Wait for
> >the Dr. Seuss world, Crom's devils, I loved that issue. Right
> up there with
> >three ex-X-Men Defenders fighting Frogman.
>
> The Bozos...Wait for the Bozos.
>
Patrick MARCEL
> And the elf with a gun.
Yeah, who wouldn't love the elf with a gun? :-)))
Though I seem to remember some moron had to go and explain the whole
story in issues further down the road, and build some sort of sequel on
it. Am I wrong?
Patrick
--
"We are all born as molecules in the heart of a billion stars; molecules
that do not understand politics or policies or differences. Over a
billion years, we foolish molecules forget who we are, and where we came
from. In desperate acts of ego we give ourselves names, fight over lines
on maps, and pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame
reminds us of the piece of those stars that lives on inside us, the
spark that tells us, 'you know better'." JMS
hurricane Season
>Though I seem to remember some moron had to go and explain the
whole
>story in issues further down the road, and build some sort of
sequel on
>it. Am I wrong?
Unfortunately not. I think it was J M DeMatteis that gave the
Elf an explanation and tied it to why the original Defenders had
to disband. It was Gawdawful, although I seem to be alone in
think DeMatteis's run on Defenders was some of the lamest,
cornball crap to come out of 80s Marvel.
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Padguy
>the former, a top-notch creative team returned the Avengers to greatness
>through good storytelling and stellar art without making drastic changes
But you're comparing apples and oranges. The Avengers have had their ups and
downs creatively over the years, but the title wasn't repeatedly cancelled and
the team had not developed a reputation as being unable to sustain a series.
Unlike Aquaman and Supergirl.
PAD
Rob Hansen
<hurseaso...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
>Unfortunately not. I think it was J M DeMatteis that gave the
>Elf an explanation and tied it to why the original Defenders had
>to disband. It was Gawdawful, although I seem to be alone in
>think DeMatteis's run on Defenders was some of the lamest,
>cornball crap to come out of 80s Marvel.
<raises hand> No, you're not alone in that view.
Danny Sichel
>>but I'd probably want to use Doc Strange, Hulk,
>>Namor, Nighthawk, Hellcat and maybe Valkyrie and the Surfer. No Gargoyle, no
>>Cloud -- that's not stuff that ever interested me.
> All characters I would buy a book for, and I can see not dealing with Cloud
> (ain't he/she/it dead anyhow?)
Cloud is no longer incarnate as human, yes.
S/he has resumed hir normal form as a sentient nebula slightly larger
than the Earth's solar system. I wouldn't call that "dead".
S/he can still condense a humanoid body out of starstuff for people to
interact with, though, as seen in _Solo Avengers_.
B!
>ups and downs creatively over the years, but the title wasn't repeatedly
>cancelled and the team had not developed a reputation as being unable to
>sustain a series.
>
>Unlike Aquaman and Supergirl.
>
>PAD
>
True. But are they still Aquaman and Supergirl? The other question is why
couldn't they sustain a series? If the characters themselves were that
miserable, would they ever have attained such notariety in the first place?
I'm really just thinking out loud...I have no problem with characters going
through changes as part of a storyline, but I also think that there should
be a return. Blue/Red Superman, for example. Wonder Woman's
death/resurrection. Tony Stark-Rhodey-Tony Stark Iron Man. Stuff like
that. Just my opinion, of course.
B!
JVV4sm
>>and
>>Peter David's Supergirl...notice a pattern here? I sometimes get the
>feeling
>>that Peter David can't write pre-existing characters without changing them
>>beyond
>>recognition.
>
>in
>the sales dumpster or else repeatedly couldn't sustain their own title and
>made
>significant enough changes that they caught readers' imaginations and kept
>the
>series around and healthy.
>
>Hey, kids! Let's drop all those yucky changes Peter David made to Aquaman
>and
>put him back the way he was! And now that he's safely back the way he
>was...he's safely cancelled. Hey, kids! Let's make the Hulk dumb again like
>he oughtta be! Whoops...sales are tanking. Better change it back to what
>Peter David was doing.
>
>Oh, that wacky Peter David. Doesn't know what the hell he's doing.
I heard he came up with the bone claws..........
Padguy
>
>I heard he came up with the bone claws..........
>
Nope. That one you can't pin on him.
PAD
have clue--will travel
Steve Parker <spar...@home.com> wrote:
>Have you gotten to the Gerber Defenders yet? I think you'll enjoy
>them .
>
>There's wonderful characterization, bizarre plots and a sense
>of....not wonder exactly....anything goes weirdness while still
>coherent-ness that you rarely see anymore.
And just when you're clinging to your last bit of sanity, the Elf With A Gun
pokes his head in the door.
jeff. one of my favorite comic characters to date...
--
/^\_(>o<) [full orchestral arrangement of Hello, Dolly] [tm Stephen Tanner]
| | Hello Kitty!
| O . O | -- I'm Hello Kitty!
\_______/ Here to send you back to hell where you belong!
Padguy
>couldn't they sustain a series? If the characters themselves were that
>miserable, would they ever have attained such notariety in the first place?
>I'm really just thinking out loud...I have no problem with characters going
>through changes as part of a storyline, but I also think that there should
>be a return. Blue/Red Superman, for example. Wonder Woman's
>death/resurrection. Tony Stark-Rhodey-Tony Stark Iron Man. Stuff like
>that. Just my opinion, of course.
>
before I started my run on the book. And once everything had been undone...it
was cancelled.
PAD
Robert Rhodes
> Oh, that wacky Peter David. Doesn't know what the hell he's doing.
Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?
RLR
-Robert Rhodes [the_sharkman(at)mail(dot)com]
http://www.sharkscavern.com/
Johanna Draper Carlson
> True. But are they still Aquaman and Supergirl? The other question is why
> couldn't they sustain a series? If the characters themselves were that
> miserable, would they ever have attained such notariety in the first place?
Talking about sustaining a series (sales) is a different matter from talking
about character consistency (creative choices), anyway. They're two
different scales of measurement that often have little to do with each
other.