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LNH: Legion of Net.Heroes Volume 2 #51
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Martin Phipps
Jun 10, 2012, 1:45:40 PM6/10/12
to
___ ___________________________
| |-| \
| |-| [] / #51
| | | [] egion of \ Introducing...
| | | []__ [] [] [] [] / THE FLAMING TORCH!
| | | [___][ \[]et.[]__[]eroes \
| | | []\ ] [ __ ] / written by and copyright 2012
| |-| [] [] [] [] \ Martin Phipps
| |-|___________________________/
Last issue, Dorfs invaded Looniearth and the LNH fought them off.
There. Now you don’t have to read it.
And where was Deja Dude during all this? Besides teaching students in
TaiWAN, he was engaged in research for the betterment of mankind.
Stop laughing. That was not meant as a joke.
Anyway, now Deja Dude was back and he had some pressing business to
attend to.
“The LNH,” he said, “must change with the times. Marvel has had an
openly gay character for decades and now DC has decided that Alan
Scott is also gay. The LNH must, therefore, have an openly gay
character.”
Thus did Deja Dude, at great personal risk [You try going around
asking big strong muscular men if they are gay], scour the world
looking for a gay net.hero until he finally found… the Flaming Torch!
“The Flaming Torch?” Keiko, the receptionist, asked when Deja Dude
brought him into the lobby. “So does he light on fire?”
“Not exactly,” Deja Dude admitted. “Torch?”
“Flame on!” The Flaming Torch said and then he snapped his fingers,
cocked his head to one side and did some moves that appeared to have
been stolen from All That Jazz.
“I don’t think the LNH accepts homophobic characters.” Keiko said.
“He’s not homophobic,” Deja Dude said. “He’s homosexual.”
“Real homosexuals might be offended.”
“Is Northstar offensive?”
“No,” Keiko said, “but that’s because he isn’t a parody making fun of
homosexuals. There’s a difference between being openly gay and
flaming gay. The big two comics companies would never have the
latter.”
“In the 90s, DC Comics had an openly gay character called Etrano.
That’s Spanish for ‘queer’.”
“I stand corrected.”
“Besides,” Deja Dude said, “it gets better: the Flaming Torch has an
eleven year sidekick called the Flaming Torch Junior.”
The Flaming Torch Junior appeared on cue and started waving as
flamboyantly as possible. “Hi!” he said.
“No!” said Kid Enthusiastic who happened to be in the Lobby while the
new characters were being introduced. “If he is eleven years old then
he doesn’t know if he is gay or not!”
Deja Dude looked at the Flaming Torch Junior’s frilly pink costume.
“Did you pick that out yourself?”
“I sewed it myself!” the Flaming Torch Junior said proudly.
Deja Dude nodded. “He’s gay.”
“That proves nothing!” Kid Enthusiastic said. “Peter Parker sewed his
own costume!”
“But Spiderman’s costume isn’t pink and frilly!”
“You’re a homophobe!”
“I admit that!” Deja Dude said. “But it’s either this or reveal that
some long forgotten non-writer character is gay, which is something we
should never do to a character we didn’t create ourselves!”
“What about Frat Boy? Didn’t Tom Russell make him gay?”
Deja Dude sighed. “Look at it this way: the Flaming Torch is like the
gay version of Master Blaster except the Flaming Torch likes men and
not women. Why is it homophobic to make fun of the Flaming Torch for
liking men and not heterophobic to make fun of Master Blaster liking
women?”
“Hmm,” Kid Enthusiastic said.
“Well?”
“You’ve got a point.”
“Thank you!”
*-*-*
Meanwhile, while this discussion was going on, Master Blaster himself
was in the cafeteria plaguing Wikiboy.
“I know!” Master Blaster said. “You’re a Japanese schoolgirl wearing
a uniform that is way too small for you!”
Wikiboy became a Japanese schoolgirl.
“Hmm,” Master Blaster said. “Looking at you right now in that short
skirt and tight blouse I almost wish I weren’t married!”
“Okay,” Wikigirl said, “this is creepy!”
“What?” Master Blaster said. “Wikigirl, you can no longer read
minds!”
“I wasn’t reading your mind!” she said. “I don’t have to! Everyone
knows what you are thinking!” Wikigirl sighed. “Frankly, I’ve just
about had enough!”
“Oh?”
“Yeah,” Wikigirl said. “I don’t like you treating me like a
plaything!”
Master Blaster nodded. “You know,” he said, ”you’re right.”
“I am?”
“Yeah. I went too far. I apologize. Wikigirl, you are Wikiboy again
and you are no longer Japanese.”
“And the uniform?”
“Right,” Master Blaster said. “You are in your usual Wikiboy
costume.”
“I wear whatever costume people say I wear.”
“Well then whatever you were wearing before I edited you.”
“So that’s it then?” Wikiboy asked. “You aren’t going to torment me
anymore?”
“No more,” Master Blaster said. “I promise!”
Just then Neternity appeared in the cafeteria. Internety was able to
fit in the room because the cafeteria, like all rooms in LNH HQ was as
big as the author wanted it to be: in this case, the celing extended
out into infinity and the walls were all infinitely far away, thus
making it possible for all of Neternity to fit in the room.
“Wait,” Master Blaster said, “is it Neternity or Internety?”
“Both,” Internety explained, “for I am both a parody of the Marvel
character Eternity and a representation of everyone who has ever used
the internet!”
“What?” Master Blaster said, cocking his BIG GUN, “including that
Canadian guy who video taped himself grisly killing that Chinese
university student?”
“Yes but all am also represent Snooki from The Jersey Shore.
Remember: she uses Twitter.”
“Fair enough,” Master Blaster said, as he disarmed his weapon.
“Snooki’s cool.”
“You watch The Jersey Shore?” Wikiboy asked.
“What?” Master Blaster asked. “I don’t look like somebody who would
watch The Jersey Shore?”
“Actually,” Wikiboy said, “you’re right: you DO look like somebody who
would watch that show. I stand corrected.”
“Thank you!” Master Blaster said. “Now, Netertity, why are you here?”
Internety nodded. “I am here to tell you that you must not stop
tormenting Wikiboy!”
“What?” Wikiboy asked. “Why?”
“Because it has become one of the three most popular running gags in
the LNH, right up there with ‘That’s a man’s pop!’ and ‘What would
Gamer Boy think?’”
“I think Master Blaster is an asshole!” Gamer Boy said.
“Who asked you?” Master Blaster asked.
Gamer Boy went back to eating his cheesecake.
“So,” Eternity said, “in order for the Looniverse to maintain a proper
balance of Comedy and Drama, Wikiboy must continue to suffer!”
“Oh no!” Wikiboy said.
“Cool!” Master Blaster said. “Wikiboy, you’re gay! I mean you like
men!”
Just then, Deja Dude appeared in the cafeteria with the Flaming
Torch. “Wikiboy,” he said, “you’re not gay! You like women!”
“Aw!” Master Blaster said. “I was just having fun! Internety said I
could!”
“Who?” Deja Dude asked.
Master Blaster looked up. “He’s gone! He was here a minute ago!”
Deja Dude saw Gamer Boy eating. “Gamer Boy, did you see a large
entity representing the entire internet in here?”
“No,” he lied.
Master Blaster growled audibly.
“Anyway,” Deja Dude said. “You can’t make Wikiboy gay because we have
a new character who is openly gay, the Flaming Torch!”
”Actually,” the Flaming Torch said, “it might be nice having more than
one openly gay character in the LNH.”
“You’re forgetting the Flaming Torch Junior!” Deja Dude said.
“No,” the Flaming Torch said. “The Flaming Torch Junior is still only
a child. I meant an adult. Someone my own age.”
“Ah!” Deja Dude said. “A love interest!”
“I guess.”
“Well, you are in luck, because look who just walked into the
cafeteria! It’s Love-Interest Lad and, yes, he’s gay!”
“Well, okay,” the Flaming Torch said, “but it is a bit of a stereotype
of gay men if you expect us to hit it off even though we have just
met!”
“Ah but you haven’t just met!” Deja Dude said. “Don’t you remember
the back story that I am making up even as I type this? You met in
Barcelona years ago! It was only a short fling but you still have
feelings for each other!”
“Oh, of course!” the Flaming Torch said. “Hello, Love Interest Lad!
How could I have forgotten about you?”
“Shut up!” Love Interest Lad said. “Just shut up! You had me at
‘Hello’!”
They kissed. Deja Dude, Master Blaster and Wikiboy all looked away.
“You can look now,” Gamer Boy said. “They’ve stopped kissing.”
“You know what!” Deja Dude said. “You two should get married!”
“What?” they both asked. “We haven’t finished catching up on old
times!”
“Yeah,” Deja Dude said, “you can do that in private from now on.
Seriously, everyone likes a wedding!”
“It just seems a bit fast.”
“Nonsense!” Deja Dude said. “It’s what people do when they are in
love! I’m going to go right now and ask Self-Righteous Preacher if he
will officiate!”
*-*-*
“Absolutely not!” Self Righteous Preacher said.
“But they are in love!” Deja Dude said.
“They are two men!”
“They are net.heroes!”
“Heroes? Besides being gay, what have they done that is heroic?”
“Isn’t being gay heroic enough?” Deja Dude asked. “There are eleven
year old gay boys who need role models!”
“I still say that eleven is too young for most people to know their
sexual orientation,” Kid Enthusiastic said.
“Shh!”
“I said ‘No’,” Self Righteous Preacher said firmly. “Marriage is
between a man and a woman and that’s final!”
“It’s okay,” the Flaming Torch said. “Really.”
“Don’t you want to be accepted like anybody else?” Deja Dude asked
sadly.
“It wouldn’t have to be a religious ceremony,” the Flaming Torch
said. “A civil union will do. The important thing is that when the
time comes I can introduce my husband as my husband and people will
see us as a married couple like anybody else.”
“Well, okay,” Deja dude said.
“And like regular people we will take it slow and get married when we
think the time is right and not just go through a ceremony for the
sake of parodying an X-Men story.”
“Heh,” Deja Dude said. “Still, this is a bit of a downer, Self-
Righteous Preacher not accepting you and Love-Interest Lad, I mean.”
“What did you expect?”
Deja Dude shrugged his shoulders. “Hey, I know! Wikiboy!”
“Yes?” Wikiboy asked.
“You’re a frog!”
Wikiboy became a frog and everybody laughed.
THE END
CREDITS:
Deja Dude, Master Blaster, The Flaming Torch, The Flaming Torch Junior
and Love-Interest Lad created by Martin Phipps
Kid Enthusiastic created by Andrew Perron
Wikiboy created by Tom Russell
Sel-Righteous Preacher created by wReam
Neternity / Internety created by Jameel Al Khavitz
It's 1:37 AM here and I don't know who created Gamer Boy or Keiko.
Martin
| |-| \
| |-| [] / #51
| | | [] egion of \ Introducing...
| | | []__ [] [] [] [] / THE FLAMING TORCH!
| | | [___][ \[]et.[]__[]eroes \
| | | []\ ] [ __ ] / written by and copyright 2012
| |-| [] [] [] [] \ Martin Phipps
| |-|___________________________/
Last issue, Dorfs invaded Looniearth and the LNH fought them off.
There. Now you don’t have to read it.
And where was Deja Dude during all this? Besides teaching students in
TaiWAN, he was engaged in research for the betterment of mankind.
Stop laughing. That was not meant as a joke.
Anyway, now Deja Dude was back and he had some pressing business to
attend to.
“The LNH,” he said, “must change with the times. Marvel has had an
openly gay character for decades and now DC has decided that Alan
Scott is also gay. The LNH must, therefore, have an openly gay
character.”
Thus did Deja Dude, at great personal risk [You try going around
asking big strong muscular men if they are gay], scour the world
looking for a gay net.hero until he finally found… the Flaming Torch!
“The Flaming Torch?” Keiko, the receptionist, asked when Deja Dude
brought him into the lobby. “So does he light on fire?”
“Not exactly,” Deja Dude admitted. “Torch?”
“Flame on!” The Flaming Torch said and then he snapped his fingers,
cocked his head to one side and did some moves that appeared to have
been stolen from All That Jazz.
“I don’t think the LNH accepts homophobic characters.” Keiko said.
“He’s not homophobic,” Deja Dude said. “He’s homosexual.”
“Real homosexuals might be offended.”
“Is Northstar offensive?”
“No,” Keiko said, “but that’s because he isn’t a parody making fun of
homosexuals. There’s a difference between being openly gay and
flaming gay. The big two comics companies would never have the
latter.”
“In the 90s, DC Comics had an openly gay character called Etrano.
That’s Spanish for ‘queer’.”
“I stand corrected.”
“Besides,” Deja Dude said, “it gets better: the Flaming Torch has an
eleven year sidekick called the Flaming Torch Junior.”
The Flaming Torch Junior appeared on cue and started waving as
flamboyantly as possible. “Hi!” he said.
“No!” said Kid Enthusiastic who happened to be in the Lobby while the
new characters were being introduced. “If he is eleven years old then
he doesn’t know if he is gay or not!”
Deja Dude looked at the Flaming Torch Junior’s frilly pink costume.
“Did you pick that out yourself?”
“I sewed it myself!” the Flaming Torch Junior said proudly.
Deja Dude nodded. “He’s gay.”
“That proves nothing!” Kid Enthusiastic said. “Peter Parker sewed his
own costume!”
“But Spiderman’s costume isn’t pink and frilly!”
“You’re a homophobe!”
“I admit that!” Deja Dude said. “But it’s either this or reveal that
some long forgotten non-writer character is gay, which is something we
should never do to a character we didn’t create ourselves!”
“What about Frat Boy? Didn’t Tom Russell make him gay?”
Deja Dude sighed. “Look at it this way: the Flaming Torch is like the
gay version of Master Blaster except the Flaming Torch likes men and
not women. Why is it homophobic to make fun of the Flaming Torch for
liking men and not heterophobic to make fun of Master Blaster liking
women?”
“Hmm,” Kid Enthusiastic said.
“Well?”
“You’ve got a point.”
“Thank you!”
*-*-*
Meanwhile, while this discussion was going on, Master Blaster himself
was in the cafeteria plaguing Wikiboy.
“I know!” Master Blaster said. “You’re a Japanese schoolgirl wearing
a uniform that is way too small for you!”
Wikiboy became a Japanese schoolgirl.
“Hmm,” Master Blaster said. “Looking at you right now in that short
skirt and tight blouse I almost wish I weren’t married!”
“Okay,” Wikigirl said, “this is creepy!”
“What?” Master Blaster said. “Wikigirl, you can no longer read
minds!”
“I wasn’t reading your mind!” she said. “I don’t have to! Everyone
knows what you are thinking!” Wikigirl sighed. “Frankly, I’ve just
about had enough!”
“Oh?”
“Yeah,” Wikigirl said. “I don’t like you treating me like a
plaything!”
Master Blaster nodded. “You know,” he said, ”you’re right.”
“I am?”
“Yeah. I went too far. I apologize. Wikigirl, you are Wikiboy again
and you are no longer Japanese.”
“And the uniform?”
“Right,” Master Blaster said. “You are in your usual Wikiboy
costume.”
“I wear whatever costume people say I wear.”
“Well then whatever you were wearing before I edited you.”
“So that’s it then?” Wikiboy asked. “You aren’t going to torment me
anymore?”
“No more,” Master Blaster said. “I promise!”
Just then Neternity appeared in the cafeteria. Internety was able to
fit in the room because the cafeteria, like all rooms in LNH HQ was as
big as the author wanted it to be: in this case, the celing extended
out into infinity and the walls were all infinitely far away, thus
making it possible for all of Neternity to fit in the room.
“Wait,” Master Blaster said, “is it Neternity or Internety?”
“Both,” Internety explained, “for I am both a parody of the Marvel
character Eternity and a representation of everyone who has ever used
the internet!”
“What?” Master Blaster said, cocking his BIG GUN, “including that
Canadian guy who video taped himself grisly killing that Chinese
university student?”
“Yes but all am also represent Snooki from The Jersey Shore.
Remember: she uses Twitter.”
“Fair enough,” Master Blaster said, as he disarmed his weapon.
“Snooki’s cool.”
“You watch The Jersey Shore?” Wikiboy asked.
“What?” Master Blaster asked. “I don’t look like somebody who would
watch The Jersey Shore?”
“Actually,” Wikiboy said, “you’re right: you DO look like somebody who
would watch that show. I stand corrected.”
“Thank you!” Master Blaster said. “Now, Netertity, why are you here?”
Internety nodded. “I am here to tell you that you must not stop
tormenting Wikiboy!”
“What?” Wikiboy asked. “Why?”
“Because it has become one of the three most popular running gags in
the LNH, right up there with ‘That’s a man’s pop!’ and ‘What would
Gamer Boy think?’”
“I think Master Blaster is an asshole!” Gamer Boy said.
“Who asked you?” Master Blaster asked.
Gamer Boy went back to eating his cheesecake.
“So,” Eternity said, “in order for the Looniverse to maintain a proper
balance of Comedy and Drama, Wikiboy must continue to suffer!”
“Oh no!” Wikiboy said.
“Cool!” Master Blaster said. “Wikiboy, you’re gay! I mean you like
men!”
Just then, Deja Dude appeared in the cafeteria with the Flaming
Torch. “Wikiboy,” he said, “you’re not gay! You like women!”
“Aw!” Master Blaster said. “I was just having fun! Internety said I
could!”
“Who?” Deja Dude asked.
Master Blaster looked up. “He’s gone! He was here a minute ago!”
Deja Dude saw Gamer Boy eating. “Gamer Boy, did you see a large
entity representing the entire internet in here?”
“No,” he lied.
Master Blaster growled audibly.
“Anyway,” Deja Dude said. “You can’t make Wikiboy gay because we have
a new character who is openly gay, the Flaming Torch!”
”Actually,” the Flaming Torch said, “it might be nice having more than
one openly gay character in the LNH.”
“You’re forgetting the Flaming Torch Junior!” Deja Dude said.
“No,” the Flaming Torch said. “The Flaming Torch Junior is still only
a child. I meant an adult. Someone my own age.”
“Ah!” Deja Dude said. “A love interest!”
“I guess.”
“Well, you are in luck, because look who just walked into the
cafeteria! It’s Love-Interest Lad and, yes, he’s gay!”
“Well, okay,” the Flaming Torch said, “but it is a bit of a stereotype
of gay men if you expect us to hit it off even though we have just
met!”
“Ah but you haven’t just met!” Deja Dude said. “Don’t you remember
the back story that I am making up even as I type this? You met in
Barcelona years ago! It was only a short fling but you still have
feelings for each other!”
“Oh, of course!” the Flaming Torch said. “Hello, Love Interest Lad!
How could I have forgotten about you?”
“Shut up!” Love Interest Lad said. “Just shut up! You had me at
‘Hello’!”
They kissed. Deja Dude, Master Blaster and Wikiboy all looked away.
“You can look now,” Gamer Boy said. “They’ve stopped kissing.”
“You know what!” Deja Dude said. “You two should get married!”
“What?” they both asked. “We haven’t finished catching up on old
times!”
“Yeah,” Deja Dude said, “you can do that in private from now on.
Seriously, everyone likes a wedding!”
“It just seems a bit fast.”
“Nonsense!” Deja Dude said. “It’s what people do when they are in
love! I’m going to go right now and ask Self-Righteous Preacher if he
will officiate!”
*-*-*
“Absolutely not!” Self Righteous Preacher said.
“But they are in love!” Deja Dude said.
“They are two men!”
“They are net.heroes!”
“Heroes? Besides being gay, what have they done that is heroic?”
“Isn’t being gay heroic enough?” Deja Dude asked. “There are eleven
year old gay boys who need role models!”
“I still say that eleven is too young for most people to know their
sexual orientation,” Kid Enthusiastic said.
“Shh!”
“I said ‘No’,” Self Righteous Preacher said firmly. “Marriage is
between a man and a woman and that’s final!”
“It’s okay,” the Flaming Torch said. “Really.”
“Don’t you want to be accepted like anybody else?” Deja Dude asked
sadly.
“It wouldn’t have to be a religious ceremony,” the Flaming Torch
said. “A civil union will do. The important thing is that when the
time comes I can introduce my husband as my husband and people will
see us as a married couple like anybody else.”
“Well, okay,” Deja dude said.
“And like regular people we will take it slow and get married when we
think the time is right and not just go through a ceremony for the
sake of parodying an X-Men story.”
“Heh,” Deja Dude said. “Still, this is a bit of a downer, Self-
Righteous Preacher not accepting you and Love-Interest Lad, I mean.”
“What did you expect?”
Deja Dude shrugged his shoulders. “Hey, I know! Wikiboy!”
“Yes?” Wikiboy asked.
“You’re a frog!”
Wikiboy became a frog and everybody laughed.
THE END
CREDITS:
Deja Dude, Master Blaster, The Flaming Torch, The Flaming Torch Junior
and Love-Interest Lad created by Martin Phipps
Kid Enthusiastic created by Andrew Perron
Wikiboy created by Tom Russell
Sel-Righteous Preacher created by wReam
Neternity / Internety created by Jameel Al Khavitz
It's 1:37 AM here and I don't know who created Gamer Boy or Keiko.
Martin
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 10, 2012, 3:53:21 PM6/10/12
to
Could we please not do this?
Andrew Perron
Jun 10, 2012, 4:17:40 PM6/10/12
to
On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:45:40 +0000 (UTC), Martin Phipps wrote:
> Last issue, Dorfs invaded Looniearth and the LNH fought them off.
>
> There. Now you don’t have to read it.
...what
> Last issue, Dorfs invaded Looniearth and the LNH fought them off.
>
> There. Now you don’t have to read it.
....seriously, what
Why. Why did you explicitly dismiss the big anniversary issue a bunch of us
including you are putting a buttload of work into?
> “The LNH,” he said, “must change with the times. Marvel has had an
> openly gay character for decades and now DC has decided that Alan
> Scott is also gay. The LNH must, therefore, have an openly gay
> character.”
Okay, so, first, we already have, I believe, several characters of
alternative sexualities at this point, including Outfielder Boy, Frat Boy,
Fan.Boy... huh, we probably need more lesbians. Anyway, yeah, been there,
done that.
The second is...
> Thus did Deja Dude, at great personal risk [You try going around
> asking big strong muscular men if they are gay], scour the world
> looking for a gay net.hero until he finally found… the Flaming Torch!
do I *need* to say what's wrong here?
Okay, okay - parody. Got it. Let's see how the joke works, and--
> “Flame on!” The Flaming Torch said and then he snapped his fingers,
> cocked his head to one side and did some moves that appeared to have
> been stolen from All That Jazz.
oh, Martin.
> “No,” Keiko said, “but that’s because he isn’t a parody making fun of
> homosexuals. There’s a difference between being openly gay and
> flaming gay. The big two comics companies would never have the
> latter.”
>
> “In the 90s, DC Comics had an openly gay character called Etrano.
> That’s Spanish for ‘queer’.”
> “No!” said Kid Enthusiastic who happened to be in the Lobby while the
> new characters were being introduced. “If he is eleven years old then
> he doesn’t know if he is gay or not!”
> Deja Dude looked at the Flaming Torch Junior’s frilly pink costume.
> “Did you pick that out yourself?”
>
> “I sewed it myself!” the Flaming Torch Junior said proudly.
>
> Deja Dude nodded. “He’s gay.”
> “You’re a homophobe!”
>
> “I admit that!” Deja Dude said.
> “But it’s either this or reveal that
> some long forgotten non-writer character is gay, which is something we
> should never do to a character we didn’t create ourselves!”
> “What about Frat Boy? Didn’t Tom Russell make him gay?”
> Deja Dude sighed. “Look at it this way: the Flaming Torch is like the
> gay version of Master Blaster except the Flaming Torch likes men and
> not women. Why is it homophobic to make fun of the Flaming Torch for
> liking men and not heterophobic to make fun of Master Blaster liking
> women?”
>
> “Hmm,” Kid Enthusiastic said.
>
> “Well?”
>
> “You’ve got a point.”
Look, I really don't like poking someone for what I percieve as personal
flaws. That said, this has been a persistent problem, and with this issue
it's really gotten to the breaking point for me, so:
Martin, please stop writing stories which are simply long-winded
justifications, and please understand someone's argument before you try to
rebut it. Especially when you're putting said rebuttal in the mouths of
pre-existing characters.
Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, going to go read Godling now.
Scott Eiler
Jun 10, 2012, 9:06:11 PM6/10/12
to
On 6/10/2012 1:17 PM, Andrew Perron wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:45:40 +0000 (UTC), Martin Phipps wrote:
>
>> Last issue, Dorfs invaded Looniearth and the LNH fought them off.
>>
>> There. Now you don嚙踝蕭t have to read it.
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:45:40 +0000 (UTC), Martin Phipps wrote:
>
>> Last issue, Dorfs invaded Looniearth and the LNH fought them off.
>>
>
> ...what
>
> ....seriously, what
>
> Why. Why did you explicitly dismiss the big anniversary issue a bunch of us
> including you are putting a buttload of work into?
Oh, perhaps we might read it anyway. Though we'll have to finish
> ...what
>
> ....seriously, what
>
> Why. Why did you explicitly dismiss the big anniversary issue a bunch of us
> including you are putting a buttload of work into?
writing it first. 8{D>
As for the rest: Well, I *did* say I'd like to see a story which
addressed the plight of Wikiboy. Martin met that challenge head-on.
--
(signed) Scott Eiler 8{D> -------- http://www.eilertech.com/ ---------
Let's take a look, if you will, at the Second Amendment of the
Constitution, which protects every American's right to shoot another
American. This cherished constitutional right to shoot people and make
them dead is currently recognized in all fifty states, most recently
Florida.
- The Borowitz Report
(http://www.borowitzreport.com/2012/03/29/an-argument-against-healthcare/),
March 2012.
Martin Phipps
Jun 11, 2012, 1:11:35 AM6/11/12
to
On 6月11日, 上午4時17分, Andrew Perron <pwer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:45:40 +0000 (UTC), Martin Phipps wrote:
> > Last issue, Dorfs invaded Looniearth and the LNH fought them off.
>
> > There. Now you don't have to read it.
>
> ...what
>
> ....seriously, what
>
> Why. Why did you explicitly dismiss the big anniversary issue a bunch of us
> including you are putting a buttload of work into?
It's a joke.
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:45:40 +0000 (UTC), Martin Phipps wrote:
> > Last issue, Dorfs invaded Looniearth and the LNH fought them off.
>
> > There. Now you don't have to read it.
>
> ...what
>
> ....seriously, what
>
> Why. Why did you explicitly dismiss the big anniversary issue a bunch of us
> including you are putting a buttload of work into?
*Sigh*
Martin
Dave Van Domelen
Jun 11, 2012, 1:53:53 AM6/11/12
to
In article <01e82927-f47c-42a1...@u1g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,
Martin Phipps <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The problem is, whenever you try this sort of joke, it pisses off almost
everyone, and those who aren't pissed off are just "meh" towards it. You
have a long history of earnestly and seriously messing up other people's work
in the LNH, and claiming that *this time* it was a joke is pretty much the
embodiment of Trollface (U MAD?).
You're too quick to crap in the commons for the sake of what may be a
pretty weak joke, expecting that no one else really cares too much about what
they're writing and are eager to find ways to deal with the chaos you spawn.
As a result, a lot of people don't want to write in any universe where you
might be involved...my interest in LNH20 largely died as soon as you started
writing in it, for instance. I'm not wasting time on anything that might
have to deal with your oblivious trollery.
Maybe you don't mean to be a troll. Maybe you've gone twenty years
honestly thinking that people appreciate the things you do and don't consider
them damage that needs to be routed around. But you're a poison pill for any
setting that lets you write in it, Martin. The people who like your ideas
aren't enough to compensate for the people who are regularly infuriated by
your "stupid dog crapping on the bed and then asking for petting" antics.
Plonk.
Dave Van Domelen, back to deleting unread anything Martin writes.
Martin Phipps <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
everyone, and those who aren't pissed off are just "meh" towards it. You
have a long history of earnestly and seriously messing up other people's work
in the LNH, and claiming that *this time* it was a joke is pretty much the
embodiment of Trollface (U MAD?).
You're too quick to crap in the commons for the sake of what may be a
pretty weak joke, expecting that no one else really cares too much about what
they're writing and are eager to find ways to deal with the chaos you spawn.
As a result, a lot of people don't want to write in any universe where you
might be involved...my interest in LNH20 largely died as soon as you started
writing in it, for instance. I'm not wasting time on anything that might
have to deal with your oblivious trollery.
Maybe you don't mean to be a troll. Maybe you've gone twenty years
honestly thinking that people appreciate the things you do and don't consider
them damage that needs to be routed around. But you're a poison pill for any
setting that lets you write in it, Martin. The people who like your ideas
aren't enough to compensate for the people who are regularly infuriated by
your "stupid dog crapping on the bed and then asking for petting" antics.
Plonk.
Dave Van Domelen, back to deleting unread anything Martin writes.
Martin Phipps
Jun 11, 2012, 5:53:21 AM6/11/12
to
On Jun 11, 1:53 pm, dvan...@eyrie.org (Dave Van Domelen) wrote:
> Dave Van Domelen, back to deleting unread anything Martin writes.
This is no great loss from my point of view.
> Dave Van Domelen, back to deleting unread anything Martin writes.
Martin
Andrew Perron
Jun 11, 2012, 10:48:50 AM6/11/12
to
On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 05:11:35 +0000 (UTC), Martin Phipps wrote:
> On 6嚙踝蕭11嚙踝蕭, 嚙磕嚙踝蕭4嚙踝蕭17嚙踝蕭, Andrew Perron <pwer...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
like this is a trifle that doesn't matter. It's the kind of joke you'd make
about an especially embarassing run on a comic by a fan-hated writer.
Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, just, these things matter.
> On 6嚙踝蕭11嚙踝蕭, 嚙磕嚙踝蕭4嚙踝蕭17嚙踝蕭, Andrew Perron <pwer...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> Why. Why did you explicitly dismiss the big anniversary issue a bunch of us
>> including you are putting a buttload of work into?
>
> It's a joke.
>
> *Sigh*
Well, yeah - but it's a joke told in a way that's dismissive, that acts
>> including you are putting a buttload of work into?
>
> It's a joke.
>
> *Sigh*
like this is a trifle that doesn't matter. It's the kind of joke you'd make
about an especially embarassing run on a comic by a fan-hated writer.
Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, just, these things matter.
Andrew Perron
Jun 11, 2012, 12:55:57 PM6/11/12
to
On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 05:53:53 +0000 (UTC), Dave Van Domelen wrote:
> You're too quick to crap in the commons for the sake of what may be a
> pretty weak joke,
That, in essence, is my problem. A lot of the time, Martin takes something
> You're too quick to crap in the commons for the sake of what may be a
> pretty weak joke,
that has a lot of potential and just burns up that potential in the
simplest point-A-to-point-B way possible. It ends up as either an
overly-literal joke, or an anticlimactic resolution to a plot point or
storyline.
> Dave Van Domelen, back to deleting unread anything Martin writes.
Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, bleugh.
Martin Phipps
Jun 11, 2012, 7:07:22 PM6/11/12
to
On Jun 12, 12:55 am, Andrew Perron <pwer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 05:53:53 +0000 (UTC), Dave Van Domelen wrote:
> > You're too quick to crap in the commons for the sake of what may be a
> > pretty weak joke,
>
> That, in essence, is my problem. A lot of the time, Martin takes something
> that has a lot of potential and just burns up that potential in the
> simplest point-A-to-point-B way possible. It ends up as either an
> overly-literal joke, or an anticlimactic resolution to a plot point or
> storyline.
That's a fair analysis. On the other hand there is the tendency for
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 05:53:53 +0000 (UTC), Dave Van Domelen wrote:
> > You're too quick to crap in the commons for the sake of what may be a
> > pretty weak joke,
>
> That, in essence, is my problem. A lot of the time, Martin takes something
> that has a lot of potential and just burns up that potential in the
> simplest point-A-to-point-B way possible. It ends up as either an
> overly-literal joke, or an anticlimactic resolution to a plot point or
> storyline.
stories, especially cascades to run on endlessly. People had a lot of
fun writing Retcon Hour but I wonder who reads that any more because
it ended up becoming bloated. Sometimes you have to wrap things up
and move on to the next story. LNH V2 #50 has already grown to the
point where, when it finally gets posted, it will have to be posted in
multiple parts. Rather than telling people not to read it, I am
actually worried that people won't read it. That should be a very
real concern for anybody who has contributed to it.
> > Dave Van Domelen, back to deleting unread anything Martin writes.
>
> On a slightly different topic: Do you use a client that *has* a killfile?
Then later on rec.arts.comics.misc EVERYONE who wrote LNH stories was
considered a troll by the majority of users because we were writing
stories on a discussion group. That is why RACC was created in the
first place so that people could post stories and not have to worry
about dealing with childish insults.
Martin
Andrew Perron
Jun 11, 2012, 7:20:54 PM6/11/12
to
On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:07:22 +0000 (UTC), Martin Phipps wrote:
> That's a fair analysis. On the other hand there is the tendency for
> stories, especially cascades to run on endlessly. People had a lot of
> fun writing Retcon Hour but I wonder who reads that any more because
> it ended up becoming bloated. Sometimes you have to wrap things up
> and move on to the next story. LNH V2 #50 has already grown to the
> point where, when it finally gets posted, it will have to be posted in
> multiple parts. Rather than telling people not to read it, I am
> actually worried that people won't read it. That should be a very
> real concern for anybody who has contributed to it.
That's true, but you can't unilaterally decide "Okay, this story has had
> That's a fair analysis. On the other hand there is the tendency for
> stories, especially cascades to run on endlessly. People had a lot of
> fun writing Retcon Hour but I wonder who reads that any more because
> it ended up becoming bloated. Sometimes you have to wrap things up
> and move on to the next story. LNH V2 #50 has already grown to the
> point where, when it finally gets posted, it will have to be posted in
> multiple parts. Rather than telling people not to read it, I am
> actually worried that people won't read it. That should be a very
> real concern for anybody who has contributed to it.
enough! Time to skip to the end."
Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, trying to push the plot forward on that
in his own segments, without chopping it off at the knees.
Martin Phipps
Jun 11, 2012, 10:01:29 PM6/11/12
to
On 6月12日, 上午7時20分, Andrew Perron <pwer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:07:22 +0000 (UTC), Martin Phipps wrote:
> > That's a fair analysis. On the other hand there is the tendency for
> > stories, especially cascades to run on endlessly. People had a lot of
> > fun writing Retcon Hour but I wonder who reads that any more because
> > it ended up becoming bloated. Sometimes you have to wrap things up
> > and move on to the next story. LNH V2 #50 has already grown to the
> > point where, when it finally gets posted, it will have to be posted in
> > multiple parts. Rather than telling people not to read it, I am
> > actually worried that people won't read it. That should be a very
> > real concern for anybody who has contributed to it.
>
> That's true, but you can't unilaterally decide "Okay, this story has had
> enough! Time to skip to the end."
And I haven't done that.
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:07:22 +0000 (UTC), Martin Phipps wrote:
> > That's a fair analysis. On the other hand there is the tendency for
> > stories, especially cascades to run on endlessly. People had a lot of
> > fun writing Retcon Hour but I wonder who reads that any more because
> > it ended up becoming bloated. Sometimes you have to wrap things up
> > and move on to the next story. LNH V2 #50 has already grown to the
> > point where, when it finally gets posted, it will have to be posted in
> > multiple parts. Rather than telling people not to read it, I am
> > actually worried that people won't read it. That should be a very
> > real concern for anybody who has contributed to it.
>
> That's true, but you can't unilaterally decide "Okay, this story has had
> enough! Time to skip to the end."
> Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, trying to push the plot forward on that
> in his own segments, without chopping it off at the knees.
Martin
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 17, 2012, 8:57:47 PM6/17/12
to
So I guess I'll have to say more about this story.
First of all, the attempt at offensive humor really, really doesn't
work. It's just an ugly stereotype put out there with no commentary or
critique. What exactly is being satirized here? Supposedly, it's
comics' jumping on board the gay bandwagon for the sake of publicity.
But the fact that there is effectively a trend now for more diverse
characters in any way is laudable, even if not all the manifestations
of that trend are. (There are good arguments to be made that Alan
Scott's outing smacks of tokenism, given that it was done to replace
his son who was erased from history. In other news, the DCU makes my
head hurt.) Doing this kind of deliberately provocative, offensive
humor can work, but like everything else you have to put careful
thought into the tone and purpose of it. In this case, the tone is
snide and dismissive, and the purpose seems to mainly be to get
revenge for criticism of a cheap joke that was never funny in the
first place.
And that's the other problem: the treatment of other peoples'
characters and ideas. This story deliberately uses Andrew's character
of Kid Enthusiastic to get in a cheap shot at him. I can't even begin
to say how petty, disrespectful and immature that is. There's also the
handling of the WikiBoy debate. Andrew raised a genuinely interesting
question that sparked a genuinely interesting debate about free will,
the nature of fiction, and so forth, which suggested all kinds of
compelling and funny stories. But this story seems to exist simply to
foreclose on these possibilities without taking into account
everything everyone has had to say.
This story also manifests some recurring problems I've noticed with
your writing, namely how overliteral and one-dimensional it is. You
don't really develop your ideas, they just kind of sit there on the
page. A lot of the time your stories parod some movie or other (it's
almost always a movie or a TV show, your sources of inspiration are
very narrow) and the dialogue points out, in as flat and awkward a way
as possible, that that's what they're doing, with little or no
deviations. You seem to be unable to tolerate or understand any kind
of metaphorical thinking, as seen in the way you approach Mr.
Morrison. But that kind of overliteralism and not just lack of but
active hostility to imagination basically kills writing and is the
opposite of what the LNH should be about.
The thing is, your ideas aren't necessarily bad. The idea that WikiBoy
is effectively a cosmic scapegoat who has to suffer for the sake of
comedy is an interesting one that fits very well into the LNH. It
raises all kinds of questions about humor, empathy, free will, the
possibilty of meaningful change to the status quo in superhero comics
or in life and what kind of pain we're willing to accept as important
and what we're willing to overlook. It sets up a lot of interesting
conflicts--what if some of the other LNHers don't accept this state of
affairs? After all, fighting cosmic forces is a staple of superhero
stories. But instead what happens is just that WIkiBoy suffers
horrible things and then a cosmic entity shows up and says that's the
way it has to be, and that's it. It exists to basically lay down the
law and lecture about how this is supposed to be, which is another
thing that gives the whole story a bullying tone. It serves to
foreclose on potential stories, not encourage them.
This kind of approach is a huge, huge problem when you're writing
about the kinds of subjects you are here. Even a character who's
deliberately an offensive stereotype could work. Look at what Jamie
Rosen did with Ebonics Lad back in LNH v2 #21. It's a little on the
nose, but he certainly gets something interesting out of an apparently
irredeemable character. The thing is, as I mentioned, in your version
the character being an offensive stereotype is the only "joke." Taken
together with the snideness of the story, you're expressing naked
contempt for gay people that would do Fred Phelps proud. I think--I
hope--that the problem is that you really don't think about what
you're writing at all, especially when you're nursing some kind of
grudge.
Because you have a recurring pattern of holding onto childish grudges
to the detriment of the group and of your own writing. There was the
time you refused to honor Dave's wishes about Squidman. There was the
ongoing, completely pointless feud with the Omega writers that went on
for over ten years, I think, up until around the point I started when
you used the Omega characters without permission Flame Wars VI until
you were called out on it. And then there was the time when you almost
sabotaged the whole LNH20 project becuase you refused to accept any
changes that would make it meaningfully different from the classic
LNH.
And that's another problem with your writing in general and this story
in particular: the hostility to doing anything differently. Right now
we're at a very interesting time in the world of both superhero comics
and the LNH. The market and the readership are changing, diversifying
and expanding and the companies are slow to join them. This year the
rest of us LNH writers are working overtime to do something new and
different and reach new audiences. Part of the reason I've been absent
lately is I'm helping Andrew build a presence for the LNH on Tumblr.
We've both been starting to engage seriously with that site. And the
thing is, Tumblr is the gayest thing in the world. A lot of young
creative people in fandom are somewhere on the LBGTQ spectrum; they're
coming here to get away from this exact kind of lazy stereotyping in
real life or even in series they otherwise love. Many others are
friends of people like that and sympathetic to their goals. Writing a
story like this is deeply exclusionary; it's telling them all they're
not welcome. And with our community as small and remote from the rest
of the internet as it is, that is deeply self-destructive.
I've been reading a lot of early LNH stories, and when I look at your
first stories and the things your'e writing now there's barely any
change and development at all. You are basically writing the exact
same kind of thing you were in 1993. The thing is, though, you
actually seemed to be getting better for a while. The Cat Lady stories
were actually something different and they really worked. Your plain
and direct style worked a lot better for that kind of children's story
inspired tale than it did for more dramatic or pseudo-dramatic
stories. They were inspired by your own experience, but they weren't
about you, let alone based on TV shows. Practically everything you've
written to date is one or the other of these things. It also helps
that they're coming from a place of affection rather than snide
contempt. And when I wrote a somewhat passive-aggressive article about
Deja Dude (which was a dick move and I'm sorry for that. I had some
problems with elements of your stories but I didn't want to engage you
directly for fear of, well, something like this. Also many of the
negative things about Deja Dude were taken from things you yourself
wrote in Arthur E.L. Presence #2), you responded to it pretty
reasonably.
But now this happens: Andrew criticizes something you write in the
most reasonable way possible and then you throw a gigantic temper
tantrum and write a profoundly offensive and worthless story in
response. I'm tired of this kind of thing. And you've shown a pattern
of doing it again and again.
So unless you retract this story, stop doing this kind of thing and
start listening to reasonable criticism of your work, I will deny you
use of any characters or elements I created or had a hand in creating,
which includes most of the framework for LNH20. I really don't want to
have to do this; it's basically a nuclear option. I generally believe
in letting people use my characters how they want even if it's
something I disagree with. After all, part of the strength of shared
universes is the possibility for divergent interpretations. The
creator should always have rights, but the creator isn't always right.
And you've created genuinely useful characters like Master Blaster and
Googlemesh, and I know that other people I like and respect like Scott
and Rob still enjoy your work, so I didn't want to start a fight that
might end with you walking out. But now things have reached the point
where if you don't clean up your act it's just not worth putting up
with you anymore. Again and again you've shown a refusal to listen to
other people or consider points of view other than your own. If you
don't show a basic modicum of respect for others I don't want you
anywhere near my creations.
It's not too late. You still have a chance to try and change, if you
can. I hope you take it.
AJM
First of all, the attempt at offensive humor really, really doesn't
work. It's just an ugly stereotype put out there with no commentary or
critique. What exactly is being satirized here? Supposedly, it's
comics' jumping on board the gay bandwagon for the sake of publicity.
But the fact that there is effectively a trend now for more diverse
characters in any way is laudable, even if not all the manifestations
of that trend are. (There are good arguments to be made that Alan
Scott's outing smacks of tokenism, given that it was done to replace
his son who was erased from history. In other news, the DCU makes my
head hurt.) Doing this kind of deliberately provocative, offensive
humor can work, but like everything else you have to put careful
thought into the tone and purpose of it. In this case, the tone is
snide and dismissive, and the purpose seems to mainly be to get
revenge for criticism of a cheap joke that was never funny in the
first place.
And that's the other problem: the treatment of other peoples'
characters and ideas. This story deliberately uses Andrew's character
of Kid Enthusiastic to get in a cheap shot at him. I can't even begin
to say how petty, disrespectful and immature that is. There's also the
handling of the WikiBoy debate. Andrew raised a genuinely interesting
question that sparked a genuinely interesting debate about free will,
the nature of fiction, and so forth, which suggested all kinds of
compelling and funny stories. But this story seems to exist simply to
foreclose on these possibilities without taking into account
everything everyone has had to say.
This story also manifests some recurring problems I've noticed with
your writing, namely how overliteral and one-dimensional it is. You
don't really develop your ideas, they just kind of sit there on the
page. A lot of the time your stories parod some movie or other (it's
almost always a movie or a TV show, your sources of inspiration are
very narrow) and the dialogue points out, in as flat and awkward a way
as possible, that that's what they're doing, with little or no
deviations. You seem to be unable to tolerate or understand any kind
of metaphorical thinking, as seen in the way you approach Mr.
Morrison. But that kind of overliteralism and not just lack of but
active hostility to imagination basically kills writing and is the
opposite of what the LNH should be about.
The thing is, your ideas aren't necessarily bad. The idea that WikiBoy
is effectively a cosmic scapegoat who has to suffer for the sake of
comedy is an interesting one that fits very well into the LNH. It
raises all kinds of questions about humor, empathy, free will, the
possibilty of meaningful change to the status quo in superhero comics
or in life and what kind of pain we're willing to accept as important
and what we're willing to overlook. It sets up a lot of interesting
conflicts--what if some of the other LNHers don't accept this state of
affairs? After all, fighting cosmic forces is a staple of superhero
stories. But instead what happens is just that WIkiBoy suffers
horrible things and then a cosmic entity shows up and says that's the
way it has to be, and that's it. It exists to basically lay down the
law and lecture about how this is supposed to be, which is another
thing that gives the whole story a bullying tone. It serves to
foreclose on potential stories, not encourage them.
This kind of approach is a huge, huge problem when you're writing
about the kinds of subjects you are here. Even a character who's
deliberately an offensive stereotype could work. Look at what Jamie
Rosen did with Ebonics Lad back in LNH v2 #21. It's a little on the
nose, but he certainly gets something interesting out of an apparently
irredeemable character. The thing is, as I mentioned, in your version
the character being an offensive stereotype is the only "joke." Taken
together with the snideness of the story, you're expressing naked
contempt for gay people that would do Fred Phelps proud. I think--I
hope--that the problem is that you really don't think about what
you're writing at all, especially when you're nursing some kind of
grudge.
Because you have a recurring pattern of holding onto childish grudges
to the detriment of the group and of your own writing. There was the
time you refused to honor Dave's wishes about Squidman. There was the
ongoing, completely pointless feud with the Omega writers that went on
for over ten years, I think, up until around the point I started when
you used the Omega characters without permission Flame Wars VI until
you were called out on it. And then there was the time when you almost
sabotaged the whole LNH20 project becuase you refused to accept any
changes that would make it meaningfully different from the classic
LNH.
And that's another problem with your writing in general and this story
in particular: the hostility to doing anything differently. Right now
we're at a very interesting time in the world of both superhero comics
and the LNH. The market and the readership are changing, diversifying
and expanding and the companies are slow to join them. This year the
rest of us LNH writers are working overtime to do something new and
different and reach new audiences. Part of the reason I've been absent
lately is I'm helping Andrew build a presence for the LNH on Tumblr.
We've both been starting to engage seriously with that site. And the
thing is, Tumblr is the gayest thing in the world. A lot of young
creative people in fandom are somewhere on the LBGTQ spectrum; they're
coming here to get away from this exact kind of lazy stereotyping in
real life or even in series they otherwise love. Many others are
friends of people like that and sympathetic to their goals. Writing a
story like this is deeply exclusionary; it's telling them all they're
not welcome. And with our community as small and remote from the rest
of the internet as it is, that is deeply self-destructive.
I've been reading a lot of early LNH stories, and when I look at your
first stories and the things your'e writing now there's barely any
change and development at all. You are basically writing the exact
same kind of thing you were in 1993. The thing is, though, you
actually seemed to be getting better for a while. The Cat Lady stories
were actually something different and they really worked. Your plain
and direct style worked a lot better for that kind of children's story
inspired tale than it did for more dramatic or pseudo-dramatic
stories. They were inspired by your own experience, but they weren't
about you, let alone based on TV shows. Practically everything you've
written to date is one or the other of these things. It also helps
that they're coming from a place of affection rather than snide
contempt. And when I wrote a somewhat passive-aggressive article about
Deja Dude (which was a dick move and I'm sorry for that. I had some
problems with elements of your stories but I didn't want to engage you
directly for fear of, well, something like this. Also many of the
negative things about Deja Dude were taken from things you yourself
wrote in Arthur E.L. Presence #2), you responded to it pretty
reasonably.
But now this happens: Andrew criticizes something you write in the
most reasonable way possible and then you throw a gigantic temper
tantrum and write a profoundly offensive and worthless story in
response. I'm tired of this kind of thing. And you've shown a pattern
of doing it again and again.
So unless you retract this story, stop doing this kind of thing and
start listening to reasonable criticism of your work, I will deny you
use of any characters or elements I created or had a hand in creating,
which includes most of the framework for LNH20. I really don't want to
have to do this; it's basically a nuclear option. I generally believe
in letting people use my characters how they want even if it's
something I disagree with. After all, part of the strength of shared
universes is the possibility for divergent interpretations. The
creator should always have rights, but the creator isn't always right.
And you've created genuinely useful characters like Master Blaster and
Googlemesh, and I know that other people I like and respect like Scott
and Rob still enjoy your work, so I didn't want to start a fight that
might end with you walking out. But now things have reached the point
where if you don't clean up your act it's just not worth putting up
with you anymore. Again and again you've shown a refusal to listen to
other people or consider points of view other than your own. If you
don't show a basic modicum of respect for others I don't want you
anywhere near my creations.
It's not too late. You still have a chance to try and change, if you
can. I hope you take it.
AJM
Martin Phipps
Jun 18, 2012, 2:38:17 AM6/18/12
to
On Jun 17, 5:57 pm, "Adrian J. McClure" <mrfantast...@gmail.com>
wrote:
character who is gay or because he is "stereotypically gay"? There
are people like that. I meet people like that every day. Basically
you are saying that characters in the LNH can only fit into a narrow
window of what is "inoffensive" even though that doesn't reflect what
people are like in real life.
> And that's the other problem: the treatment of other peoples'
> characters and ideas. This story deliberately uses Andrew's character
> of Kid Enthusiastic to get in a cheap shot at him. I can't even begin
> to say how petty, disrespectful and immature that is. There's also the
> handling of the WikiBoy debate. Andrew raised a genuinely interesting
> question that sparked a genuinely interesting debate about free will,
> the nature of fiction, and so forth, which suggested all kinds of
> compelling and funny stories. But this story seems to exist simply to
> foreclose on these possibilities without taking into account
> everything everyone has had to say.
Please explain to me where the cheap shot was. If you are going to
make accusations then you need to back them up. Kid Enthusiastic
never backed down: he only conceded one point which I considered to be
a tautology. (The Flaming Torch is no more offensive than Master
Blaster, who I admit is sometimes a bit offensive. The Flaming Torch
is actually a lot less offensive if you really think about it.)
> This story also manifests some recurring problems I've noticed with
> your writing, namely how overliteral and one-dimensional it is. You
> don't really develop your ideas, they just kind of sit there on the
> page. A lot of the time your stories parod some movie or other (it's
> almost always a movie or a TV show, your sources of inspiration are
> very narrow) and the dialogue points out, in as flat and awkward a way
> as possible, that that's what they're doing, with little or no
> deviations. You seem to be unable to tolerate or understand any kind
> of metaphorical thinking, as seen in the way you approach Mr.
> Morrison. But that kind of overliteralism and not just lack of but
> active hostility to imagination basically kills writing and is the
> opposite of what the LNH should be about.
The LNH was intended as parody of comics. I don't know if people are
still reading comics. I don't have access to comics here in Taiwan.
I take inspiration from movies, TV and from life. I never claimed to
get inspiration from classic literature.
Frankly, we have yet to see if the Mr. Morrison concept as is actually
works. How likely do you suppose would it be for other people to use
the character? You basically ignored my questions as to how the
character would work, saying that you guys hadn't figured it out yet.
> The thing is, your ideas aren't necessarily bad. The idea that WikiBoy
> is effectively a cosmic scapegoat who has to suffer for the sake of
> comedy is an interesting one that fits very well into the LNH. It
> raises all kinds of questions about humor, empathy, free will, the
> possibilty of meaningful change to the status quo in superhero comics
> or in life and what kind of pain we're willing to accept as important
> and what we're willing to overlook. It sets up a lot of interesting
> conflicts--what if some of the other LNHers don't accept this state of
> affairs? After all, fighting cosmic forces is a staple of superhero
> stories. But instead what happens is just that WIkiBoy suffers
> horrible things and then a cosmic entity shows up and says that's the
> way it has to be, and that's it. It exists to basically lay down the
> law and lecture about how this is supposed to be, which is another
> thing that gives the whole story a bullying tone. It serves to
> foreclose on potential stories, not encourage them.
Nonsense. People write stories and other people write stories. No
one story discounts another. Master Blaster can now go around
claiming that the universe wants him to pick on Wikiboy and people
don't have to believe him. At least this makes Master Blaster less of
a crazy asshole which, incidentally, I objected to.
> This kind of approach is a huge, huge problem when you're writing
> about the kinds of subjects you are here. Even a character who's
> deliberately an offensive stereotype could work. Look at what Jamie
> Rosen did with Ebonics Lad back in LNH v2 #21. It's a little on the
> nose, but he certainly gets something interesting out of an apparently
> irredeemable character. The thing is, as I mentioned, in your version
> the character being an offensive stereotype is the only "joke." Taken
> together with the snideness of the story, you're expressing naked
> contempt for gay people that would do Fred Phelps proud. I think--I
> hope--that the problem is that you really don't think about what
> you're writing at all, especially when you're nursing some kind of
> grudge.
What grudge? If I held a grudge I wouldn't be posting here at all: I
would just say "screw this".
> Because you have a recurring pattern of holding onto childish grudges
> to the detriment of the group and of your own writing. There was the
> time you refused to honor Dave's wishes about Squidman.
What are you talking about? You weren't even on RACC at that time.
There was no "refusal" involved. The fact is that Drizzt came up with
this idea of parodying the legacy virus and I made Squidman one of the
victims and then Dave wrote a story in which he came back. That's
all.
I actually think Dave is upset with me because I created an LNH2
imprint and he had his own ideas for an LNH2 imprint. I don't know
why he didn't go ahead with LNHB. Arthur eventually came up with LNHY
and you guys came up with LNH20.
Frankly I get sick of this immature "It's my ball and I'm going to
take it home and not play anymore" attitude.
> There was the
> ongoing, completely pointless feud with the Omega writers that went on
> for over ten years, I think, up until around the point I started when
> you used the Omega characters without permission Flame Wars VI until
> you were called out on it.
I asked for permission to use Omega characters. They said no. So
then I got the idea of using similar LNH characters in their place. I
should have made it clear that was what I was doing.
Anyway, these things go back YEARS and yet you are accusing me of
holding grudges?
> And then there was the time when you almost
> sabotaged the whole LNH20 project because you refused to accept any
project? Seriously. Let me know exactly what your grudges are. Are
you saying I shouldn't have had any input at all?
The fact is that the last part of The Spoon of Destiny was posted back
on March 2. LNH Volume 2 #50 seems similarly held up.
I am perfectly willing to work with people and help get these stories
back on track but, frankly, I am getting a bit tired of this
childishness. Are you saying that these stories are held up because
of something I did? Fine. Believe what you want. But don't be a
hypocrite and accuse me of holding grudges to the detriment of the
group while meanwhile just letting things slide.
> And that's another problem with your writing in general and this story
> in particular: the hostility to doing anything differently. Right now
> we're at a very interesting time in the world of both superhero comics
> and the LNH. The market and the readership are changing, diversifying
> and expanding and the companies are slow to join them. This year the
> rest of us LNH writers are working overtime to do something new and
> different and reach new audiences. Part of the reason I've been absent
> lately is I'm helping Andrew build a presence for the LNH on Tumblr.
> We've both been starting to engage seriously with that site. And the
> thing is, Tumblr is the gayest thing in the world. A lot of young
> creative people in fandom are somewhere on the LBGTQ spectrum; they're
> coming here to get away from this exact kind of lazy stereotyping in
> real life or even in series they otherwise love. Many others are
> friends of people like that and sympathetic to their goals. Writing a
> story like this is deeply exclusionary; it's telling them all they're
> not welcome. And with our community as small and remote from the rest
> of the internet as it is, that is deeply self-destructive.
I disagree. I frankly feel that your reaction is immature. If we
can't laugh at ourselves then there is something wrong with us.
> I've been reading a lot of early LNH stories, and when I look at your
> first stories and the things your'e writing now there's barely any
> change and development at all. You are basically writing the exact
> same kind of thing you were in 1993. The thing is, though, you
> actually seemed to be getting better for a while. The Cat Lady stories
> were actually something different and they really worked. Your plain
> and direct style worked a lot better for that kind of children's story
> inspired tale than it did for more dramatic or pseudo-dramatic
> stories. They were inspired by your own experience, but they weren't
> about you, let alone based on TV shows. Practically everything you've
> written to date is one or the other of these things. It also helps
> that they're coming from a place of affection rather than snide
> contempt. And when I wrote a somewhat passive-aggressive article about
> Deja Dude (which was a dick move and I'm sorry for that. I had some
> problems with elements of your stories but I didn't want to engage you
> directly for fear of, well, something like this. Also many of the
> negative things about Deja Dude were taken from things you yourself
> wrote in Arthur E.L. Presence #2), you responded to it pretty
> reasonably.
Oh you mean the article on LNH wiki? Yeah, that was a dick move.
> But now this happens: Andrew criticizes something you write in the
> most reasonable way possible and then you throw a gigantic temper
> tantrum and write a profoundly offensive and worthless story in
> response. I'm tired of this kind of thing. And you've shown a pattern
> of doing it again and again.
And this is another dick move. How dare you accuse me of taking a
temper tantrum? How dare you refer to something I wrote as
"worthless"? How does the attitude that you are giving off now
encourage people to write here on RACC?
What you don't seem to notice is that I ALWAYS respond in a reasonable
manner. This IS me responding in a reasonable manner. I am
responding to completely baseless accusations and I am responding
reasonably. I even responded reasonably when Arthur called me an
"asshole" and I got shit for it. And when I later decided to respond
accordingly I got shit for that. I've taken a lot of shit from a lot
of people and yet I am still here and then finally I get Dave
suggesting that I am a troll. Presumably if I take enough shit it is
because I WANT to take shit from people. Well I don't.
> So unless you retract this story, stop doing this kind of thing and
> start listening to reasonable criticism of your work, I will deny you
> use of any characters or elements I created or had a hand in creating,
> which includes most of the framework for LNH20. I really don't want to
> have to do this; it's basically a nuclear option. I generally believe
> in letting people use my characters how they want even if it's
> something I disagree with. After all, part of the strength of shared
> universes is the possibility for divergent interpretations. The
> creator should always have rights, but the creator isn't always right.
> And you've created genuinely useful characters like Master Blaster and
> Googlemesh, and I know that other people I like and respect like Scott
> and Rob still enjoy your work, so I didn't want to start a fight that
> might end with you walking out.
Alright then, this is my counter option: you act your age, sincerely
apologize for being an asshole in this post and I will prove to you
that I don't hold grudges against people who apologize to me
sincerely.
> But now things have reached the point
> where if you don't clean up your act it's just not worth putting up
> with you anymore. Again and again you've shown a refusal to listen to
> other people or consider points of view other than your own. If you
> don't show a basic modicum of respect for others I don't want you
> anywhere near my creations.
>
> It's not too late. You still have a chance to try and change, if you
> can. I hope you take it.
So can you. Your basic argument is that there is something wrong with
me for being "reasonable" as you yourself say and presumably it is
alright for you to be completely unreasonable. Well, what would you
expect me to do? What possible reason would I have to want to work
with you if you are going to behave like this? What possible reason
would ANYONE have to work with you under these circumstances where you
can childishly say "I don't like your story and therefore I refuse to
give you permission to use any of my characters in the future?" My
God. Did you even ask for permission to use Gilgamesh? No, he was
mentioned in the first chapter of The Spoon of Destiny and I had to
ask if you had any plans for him and you guys said "No". Then when I
went ahead and used Gilgamesh in Generation 2.0 Andrew took a hissy
fit saying that you guys had plans for him, plans that neither of you
bothered to tell me about. Is that what you consider treating someone
with respect?
You do realize that if I say right now that you can't use Gilgamesh
then you can't finish the Spoon of Destiny Saga, at least not with the
permission to use a character I created. That is the nuclear option
but we're facing mutual assured destruction here.
One thing I will not do is participate in a flame war. If you are
trying to start one then, well, frankly, I've got other things to do
with my life. My apologies.
It's your call then.
Martin
wrote:
> So I guess I'll have to say more about this story.
>
> First of all, the attempt at offensive humor really, really doesn't
> work. It's just an ugly stereotype put out there with no commentary or
> critique. What exactly is being satirized here? Supposedly, it's
> comics' jumping on board the gay bandwagon for the sake of publicity.
> But the fact that there is effectively a trend now for more diverse
> characters in any way is laudable, even if not all the manifestations
> of that trend are. (There are good arguments to be made that Alan
> Scott's outing smacks of tokenism, given that it was done to replace
> his son who was erased from history. In other news, the DCU makes my
> head hurt.) Doing this kind of deliberately provocative, offensive
> humor can work, but like everything else you have to put careful
> thought into the tone and purpose of it. In this case, the tone is
> snide and dismissive, and the purpose seems to mainly be to get
> revenge for criticism of a cheap joke that was never funny in the
> first place.
First of all, why is it offensive? Is it offensive because there is a
>
> First of all, the attempt at offensive humor really, really doesn't
> work. It's just an ugly stereotype put out there with no commentary or
> critique. What exactly is being satirized here? Supposedly, it's
> comics' jumping on board the gay bandwagon for the sake of publicity.
> But the fact that there is effectively a trend now for more diverse
> characters in any way is laudable, even if not all the manifestations
> of that trend are. (There are good arguments to be made that Alan
> Scott's outing smacks of tokenism, given that it was done to replace
> his son who was erased from history. In other news, the DCU makes my
> head hurt.) Doing this kind of deliberately provocative, offensive
> humor can work, but like everything else you have to put careful
> thought into the tone and purpose of it. In this case, the tone is
> snide and dismissive, and the purpose seems to mainly be to get
> revenge for criticism of a cheap joke that was never funny in the
> first place.
character who is gay or because he is "stereotypically gay"? There
are people like that. I meet people like that every day. Basically
you are saying that characters in the LNH can only fit into a narrow
window of what is "inoffensive" even though that doesn't reflect what
people are like in real life.
> And that's the other problem: the treatment of other peoples'
> characters and ideas. This story deliberately uses Andrew's character
> of Kid Enthusiastic to get in a cheap shot at him. I can't even begin
> to say how petty, disrespectful and immature that is. There's also the
> handling of the WikiBoy debate. Andrew raised a genuinely interesting
> question that sparked a genuinely interesting debate about free will,
> the nature of fiction, and so forth, which suggested all kinds of
> compelling and funny stories. But this story seems to exist simply to
> foreclose on these possibilities without taking into account
> everything everyone has had to say.
make accusations then you need to back them up. Kid Enthusiastic
never backed down: he only conceded one point which I considered to be
a tautology. (The Flaming Torch is no more offensive than Master
Blaster, who I admit is sometimes a bit offensive. The Flaming Torch
is actually a lot less offensive if you really think about it.)
> This story also manifests some recurring problems I've noticed with
> your writing, namely how overliteral and one-dimensional it is. You
> don't really develop your ideas, they just kind of sit there on the
> page. A lot of the time your stories parod some movie or other (it's
> almost always a movie or a TV show, your sources of inspiration are
> very narrow) and the dialogue points out, in as flat and awkward a way
> as possible, that that's what they're doing, with little or no
> deviations. You seem to be unable to tolerate or understand any kind
> of metaphorical thinking, as seen in the way you approach Mr.
> Morrison. But that kind of overliteralism and not just lack of but
> active hostility to imagination basically kills writing and is the
> opposite of what the LNH should be about.
still reading comics. I don't have access to comics here in Taiwan.
I take inspiration from movies, TV and from life. I never claimed to
get inspiration from classic literature.
Frankly, we have yet to see if the Mr. Morrison concept as is actually
works. How likely do you suppose would it be for other people to use
the character? You basically ignored my questions as to how the
character would work, saying that you guys hadn't figured it out yet.
> The thing is, your ideas aren't necessarily bad. The idea that WikiBoy
> is effectively a cosmic scapegoat who has to suffer for the sake of
> comedy is an interesting one that fits very well into the LNH. It
> raises all kinds of questions about humor, empathy, free will, the
> possibilty of meaningful change to the status quo in superhero comics
> or in life and what kind of pain we're willing to accept as important
> and what we're willing to overlook. It sets up a lot of interesting
> conflicts--what if some of the other LNHers don't accept this state of
> affairs? After all, fighting cosmic forces is a staple of superhero
> stories. But instead what happens is just that WIkiBoy suffers
> horrible things and then a cosmic entity shows up and says that's the
> way it has to be, and that's it. It exists to basically lay down the
> law and lecture about how this is supposed to be, which is another
> thing that gives the whole story a bullying tone. It serves to
> foreclose on potential stories, not encourage them.
one story discounts another. Master Blaster can now go around
claiming that the universe wants him to pick on Wikiboy and people
don't have to believe him. At least this makes Master Blaster less of
a crazy asshole which, incidentally, I objected to.
> This kind of approach is a huge, huge problem when you're writing
> about the kinds of subjects you are here. Even a character who's
> deliberately an offensive stereotype could work. Look at what Jamie
> Rosen did with Ebonics Lad back in LNH v2 #21. It's a little on the
> nose, but he certainly gets something interesting out of an apparently
> irredeemable character. The thing is, as I mentioned, in your version
> the character being an offensive stereotype is the only "joke." Taken
> together with the snideness of the story, you're expressing naked
> contempt for gay people that would do Fred Phelps proud. I think--I
> hope--that the problem is that you really don't think about what
> you're writing at all, especially when you're nursing some kind of
> grudge.
would just say "screw this".
> Because you have a recurring pattern of holding onto childish grudges
> to the detriment of the group and of your own writing. There was the
> time you refused to honor Dave's wishes about Squidman.
There was no "refusal" involved. The fact is that Drizzt came up with
this idea of parodying the legacy virus and I made Squidman one of the
victims and then Dave wrote a story in which he came back. That's
all.
I actually think Dave is upset with me because I created an LNH2
imprint and he had his own ideas for an LNH2 imprint. I don't know
why he didn't go ahead with LNHB. Arthur eventually came up with LNHY
and you guys came up with LNH20.
Frankly I get sick of this immature "It's my ball and I'm going to
take it home and not play anymore" attitude.
> There was the
> ongoing, completely pointless feud with the Omega writers that went on
> for over ten years, I think, up until around the point I started when
> you used the Omega characters without permission Flame Wars VI until
> you were called out on it.
then I got the idea of using similar LNH characters in their place. I
should have made it clear that was what I was doing.
Anyway, these things go back YEARS and yet you are accusing me of
holding grudges?
> And then there was the time when you almost
> changes that would make it meaningfully different from the classic
> LNH.
Again, what are you talking about? How did I sabotage the LNH20
> LNH.
project? Seriously. Let me know exactly what your grudges are. Are
you saying I shouldn't have had any input at all?
The fact is that the last part of The Spoon of Destiny was posted back
on March 2. LNH Volume 2 #50 seems similarly held up.
I am perfectly willing to work with people and help get these stories
back on track but, frankly, I am getting a bit tired of this
childishness. Are you saying that these stories are held up because
of something I did? Fine. Believe what you want. But don't be a
hypocrite and accuse me of holding grudges to the detriment of the
group while meanwhile just letting things slide.
> And that's another problem with your writing in general and this story
> in particular: the hostility to doing anything differently. Right now
> we're at a very interesting time in the world of both superhero comics
> and the LNH. The market and the readership are changing, diversifying
> and expanding and the companies are slow to join them. This year the
> rest of us LNH writers are working overtime to do something new and
> different and reach new audiences. Part of the reason I've been absent
> lately is I'm helping Andrew build a presence for the LNH on Tumblr.
> We've both been starting to engage seriously with that site. And the
> thing is, Tumblr is the gayest thing in the world. A lot of young
> creative people in fandom are somewhere on the LBGTQ spectrum; they're
> coming here to get away from this exact kind of lazy stereotyping in
> real life or even in series they otherwise love. Many others are
> friends of people like that and sympathetic to their goals. Writing a
> story like this is deeply exclusionary; it's telling them all they're
> not welcome. And with our community as small and remote from the rest
> of the internet as it is, that is deeply self-destructive.
can't laugh at ourselves then there is something wrong with us.
> I've been reading a lot of early LNH stories, and when I look at your
> first stories and the things your'e writing now there's barely any
> change and development at all. You are basically writing the exact
> same kind of thing you were in 1993. The thing is, though, you
> actually seemed to be getting better for a while. The Cat Lady stories
> were actually something different and they really worked. Your plain
> and direct style worked a lot better for that kind of children's story
> inspired tale than it did for more dramatic or pseudo-dramatic
> stories. They were inspired by your own experience, but they weren't
> about you, let alone based on TV shows. Practically everything you've
> written to date is one or the other of these things. It also helps
> that they're coming from a place of affection rather than snide
> contempt. And when I wrote a somewhat passive-aggressive article about
> Deja Dude (which was a dick move and I'm sorry for that. I had some
> problems with elements of your stories but I didn't want to engage you
> directly for fear of, well, something like this. Also many of the
> negative things about Deja Dude were taken from things you yourself
> wrote in Arthur E.L. Presence #2), you responded to it pretty
> reasonably.
> But now this happens: Andrew criticizes something you write in the
> most reasonable way possible and then you throw a gigantic temper
> tantrum and write a profoundly offensive and worthless story in
> response. I'm tired of this kind of thing. And you've shown a pattern
> of doing it again and again.
temper tantrum? How dare you refer to something I wrote as
"worthless"? How does the attitude that you are giving off now
encourage people to write here on RACC?
What you don't seem to notice is that I ALWAYS respond in a reasonable
manner. This IS me responding in a reasonable manner. I am
responding to completely baseless accusations and I am responding
reasonably. I even responded reasonably when Arthur called me an
"asshole" and I got shit for it. And when I later decided to respond
accordingly I got shit for that. I've taken a lot of shit from a lot
of people and yet I am still here and then finally I get Dave
suggesting that I am a troll. Presumably if I take enough shit it is
because I WANT to take shit from people. Well I don't.
> So unless you retract this story, stop doing this kind of thing and
> start listening to reasonable criticism of your work, I will deny you
> use of any characters or elements I created or had a hand in creating,
> which includes most of the framework for LNH20. I really don't want to
> have to do this; it's basically a nuclear option. I generally believe
> in letting people use my characters how they want even if it's
> something I disagree with. After all, part of the strength of shared
> universes is the possibility for divergent interpretations. The
> creator should always have rights, but the creator isn't always right.
> And you've created genuinely useful characters like Master Blaster and
> Googlemesh, and I know that other people I like and respect like Scott
> and Rob still enjoy your work, so I didn't want to start a fight that
> might end with you walking out.
apologize for being an asshole in this post and I will prove to you
that I don't hold grudges against people who apologize to me
sincerely.
> But now things have reached the point
> where if you don't clean up your act it's just not worth putting up
> with you anymore. Again and again you've shown a refusal to listen to
> other people or consider points of view other than your own. If you
> don't show a basic modicum of respect for others I don't want you
> anywhere near my creations.
>
> It's not too late. You still have a chance to try and change, if you
> can. I hope you take it.
me for being "reasonable" as you yourself say and presumably it is
alright for you to be completely unreasonable. Well, what would you
expect me to do? What possible reason would I have to want to work
with you if you are going to behave like this? What possible reason
would ANYONE have to work with you under these circumstances where you
can childishly say "I don't like your story and therefore I refuse to
give you permission to use any of my characters in the future?" My
God. Did you even ask for permission to use Gilgamesh? No, he was
mentioned in the first chapter of The Spoon of Destiny and I had to
ask if you had any plans for him and you guys said "No". Then when I
went ahead and used Gilgamesh in Generation 2.0 Andrew took a hissy
fit saying that you guys had plans for him, plans that neither of you
bothered to tell me about. Is that what you consider treating someone
with respect?
You do realize that if I say right now that you can't use Gilgamesh
then you can't finish the Spoon of Destiny Saga, at least not with the
permission to use a character I created. That is the nuclear option
but we're facing mutual assured destruction here.
One thing I will not do is participate in a flame war. If you are
trying to start one then, well, frankly, I've got other things to do
with my life. My apologies.
It's your call then.
Martin
Andrew Perron
Jun 18, 2012, 4:34:00 PM6/18/12
to
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 06:38:17 +0000 (UTC), Martin Phipps wrote:
> First of all, why is it offensive? Is it offensive because there is a
> character who is gay or because he is "stereotypically gay"? There
> are people like that. I meet people like that every day.
...you meet people who call themselves "The Flaming Torch" every day?
> First of all, why is it offensive? Is it offensive because there is a
> character who is gay or because he is "stereotypically gay"? There
> are people like that. I meet people like that every day.
(Oh, another offensive aspect that wasn't touched upon: Equating feminine
clothing with homosexuality.)
> Please explain to me where the cheap shot was. If you are going to
> make accusations then you need to back them up. Kid Enthusiastic
> never backed down: he only conceded one point which I considered to be
> a tautology. (The Flaming Torch is no more offensive than Master
> Blaster, who I admit is sometimes a bit offensive. The Flaming Torch
> is actually a lot less offensive if you really think about it.)
mouth of the character who's most associated with me specifically to rebut
something I said.
> Nonsense. People write stories and other people write stories. No
> one story discounts another.
thing. Now, we can play around with that for comic effect or just for the
sake of changing things, but we do need to acknowledge it.
> There was no "refusal" involved. The fact is that Drizzt came up with
> this idea of parodying the legacy virus and I made Squidman one of the
> victims and then Dave wrote a story in which he came back. That's
> all.
> I asked for permission to use Omega characters. They said no. So
> then I got the idea of using similar LNH characters in their place. I
> should have made it clear that was what I was doing.
LNH-ified versions after people objected?
> Anyway, these things go back YEARS and yet you are accusing me of
> holding grudges?
point.
> Again, what are you talking about? How did I sabotage the LNH20
> project?
things your way, driving him away and almost scuttling the project overall.
> What you don't seem to notice is that I ALWAYS respond in a reasonable
> manner. This IS me responding in a reasonable manner. I am
> responding to completely baseless accusations and I am responding
> reasonably.
reasonable. You're ignoring other people's viewpoints, and insisting that
your actions and your interpretations of events are the only correct ones.
> So can you. Your basic argument is that there is something wrong with
> me for being "reasonable" as you yourself say and presumably it is
> alright for you to be completely unreasonable.
need to stop.
Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, sincerely angry.
Martin Phipps
Jun 18, 2012, 7:23:34 PM6/18/12
to
On Jun 18, 1:34 pm, Andrew Perron <pwer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 06:38:17 +0000 (UTC), Martin Phipps wrote:
> > First of all, why is it offensive? Is it offensive because there is a
> > character who is gay or because he is "stereotypically gay"? There
> > are people like that. I meet people like that every day.
>
> ...you meet people who call themselves "The Flaming Torch" every day?
I have a student who was co-hosting a contest and he said "Do you know
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 06:38:17 +0000 (UTC), Martin Phipps wrote:
> > First of all, why is it offensive? Is it offensive because there is a
> > character who is gay or because he is "stereotypically gay"? There
> > are people like that. I meet people like that every day.
>
> ...you meet people who call themselves "The Flaming Torch" every day?
Lady Gaga is here?" He left the room, came back dressed as Lady Gaga
(ie in a dress) and lip-synced to one of her songs. He then kissed
the forehead of one of the male teachers. Another teacher (who was
deeply religious) got up and left during this.
> (Oh, another offensive aspect that wasn't touched upon: Equating feminine
> clothing with homosexuality.)
I had heard that some gay men object to the character of Jack on Will
and Grace, saying he is a stereotype but gay men who object are
definitely the minority as the show went for eight seasons and it was
considered a good thing that gay characters were appearing on TV.
> > Please explain to me where the cheap shot was. If you are going to
> > make accusations then you need to back them up. Kid Enthusiastic
> > never backed down: he only conceded one point which I considered to be
> > a tautology. (The Flaming Torch is no more offensive than Master
> > Blaster, who I admit is sometimes a bit offensive. The Flaming Torch
> > is actually a lot less offensive if you really think about it.)
>
> The point is, others *don't* consider it a tautology. You put words in the
> mouth of the character who's most associated with me specifically to rebut
> something I said.
that The Flaming Torch was the homosexual equivalent of Master Blaster
(only, in fact, less so).
> > Nonsense. People write stories and other people write stories. No
> > one story discounts another.
>
> ...except that we're working in a shared universe, where "continuity" is a
> thing. Now, we can play around with that for comic effect or just for the
> sake of changing things, but we do need to acknowledge it.
Torch in stories from now on? Sometimes stories just don't have any
effect on what other people write. It's not as if I had just nuked
Sig.cago and told everybody they can't even mention Sig.cago anymore.
(We had a writer do that and he had the whole city reserved for
years.)
> > There was no "refusal" involved. The fact is that Drizzt came up with
> > this idea of parodying the legacy virus and I made Squidman one of the
> > victims and then Dave wrote a story in which he came back. That's
> > all.
>
> So what you're saying is, you didn't even ask for permission.
> > I asked for permission to use Omega characters. They said no. So
> > then I got the idea of using similar LNH characters in their place. I
> > should have made it clear that was what I was doing.
>
> ...didn't you use the characters without permission and only switch to
> LNH-ified versions after people objected?
so you don't know.
> > Anyway, these things go back YEARS and yet you are accusing me of
> > holding grudges?
>
> Well, this is a pattern of behavior. You keep doing this stuff, is the
> point.
interested in being an unreasonable dick.
> > Again, what are you talking about? How did I sabotage the LNH20
> > project?
>
> You got into an enormous argument with Arthur when he didn't want to do
> things your way, driving him away and almost scuttling the project overall.
blaming me for that, right?
> > What you don't seem to notice is that I ALWAYS respond in a reasonable
> > manner. This IS me responding in a reasonable manner. I am
> > responding to completely baseless accusations and I am responding
> > reasonably.
>
> ...I'm sorry, but I don't find anything that you've written here
> reasonable. You're ignoring other people's viewpoints, and insisting that
> your actions and your interpretations of events are the only correct ones.
happened. It isn't a question of what is "correct". It is a question
of what is true.
> > So can you. Your basic argument is that there is something wrong with
> > me for being "reasonable" as you yourself say and presumably it is
> > alright for you to be completely unreasonable.
>
> The argument is: You're acting like a jerk, for all the reasons above. You
> need to stop.
> Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, sincerely angry.
that. If me being reasonable makes you angry then that is a deep
character flaw you have and you might want to consider changing your
ways.
Martin
Arthur Spitzer
Jun 18, 2012, 7:56:09 PM6/18/12
to
(and his sockpuppets -- Hey, remember that time that Tom killfiled
Martin so Martin started posting under a sock puppet called George Chen
so he could continue trolling Tom? Hah, that Martin! What a very
mature poster!)
http://lists.eyrie.org/pipermail/racc/2008-June/004880.html
http://lists.eyrie.org/pipermail/racc/2008-June/004881.html
Which probably also means never using any of his characters, but that's
a small price to pay for not having to deal with him anymore.
And if Martin uses your character in a way you don't like -- it is
perfectly within your rights to have him rewrite the scene so that you
find it acceptable or to have him rewrite it with some other character.
That's my advice for dealing with Martin.
Arthur "Sorry about this..." Spitzer
Andrew Perron
Jun 18, 2012, 8:05:27 PM6/18/12
to
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 23:56:09 +0000 (UTC), Arthur Spitzer wrote:
> Honestly, I'd say the best way to deal with Martin is to just ignore him
> (and his sockpuppets -- Hey, remember that time that Tom killfiled
> Martin so Martin started posting under a sock puppet called George Chen
> so he could continue trolling Tom? Hah, that Martin! What a very
> mature poster!)
>
> http://lists.eyrie.org/pipermail/racc/2008-June/004880.html
> http://lists.eyrie.org/pipermail/racc/2008-June/004881.html
...yeah, I forgot about that.
> Honestly, I'd say the best way to deal with Martin is to just ignore him
> (and his sockpuppets -- Hey, remember that time that Tom killfiled
> Martin so Martin started posting under a sock puppet called George Chen
> so he could continue trolling Tom? Hah, that Martin! What a very
> mature poster!)
>
> http://lists.eyrie.org/pipermail/racc/2008-June/004880.html
> http://lists.eyrie.org/pipermail/racc/2008-June/004881.html
> Which probably also means never using any of his characters, but that's
> a small price to pay for not having to deal with him anymore.
>
> And if Martin uses your character in a way you don't like -- it is
> perfectly within your rights to have him rewrite the scene so that you
> find it acceptable or to have him rewrite it with some other character.
>
> That's my advice for dealing with Martin.
>
> Arthur "Sorry about this..." Spitzer
Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, jeez.
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 18, 2012, 8:15:58 PM6/18/12
to
On Jun 18, 7:56 pm, Arthur Spitzer <arspit...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Honestly, I'd say the best way to deal with Martin is to just ignore him
> (and his sockpuppets -- Hey, remember that time that Tom killfiled
> Martin so Martin started posting under a sock puppet called George Chen
> so he could continue trolling Tom? Hah, that Martin! What a very
> mature poster!)
>
> http://lists.eyrie.org/pipermail/racc/2008-June/004880.htmlhttp://lists.eyrie.org/pipermail/racc/2008-June/004881.html
>
...holy crap. Just when you think he can't stoop any lower...
> Honestly, I'd say the best way to deal with Martin is to just ignore him
> (and his sockpuppets -- Hey, remember that time that Tom killfiled
> Martin so Martin started posting under a sock puppet called George Chen
> so he could continue trolling Tom? Hah, that Martin! What a very
> mature poster!)
>
> http://lists.eyrie.org/pipermail/racc/2008-June/004880.htmlhttp://lists.eyrie.org/pipermail/racc/2008-June/004881.html
>
> Which probably also means never using any of his characters, but that's
> a small price to pay for not having to deal with him anymore.
>
> And if Martin uses your character in a way you don't like -- it is
> perfectly within your rights to have him rewrite the scene so that you
> find it acceptable or to have him rewrite it with some other character.
>
> That's my advice for dealing with Martin.
>
> Arthur "Sorry about this..." Spitzer
collaborative projects that are going on right now involve his
characters to some extent and it's hard to know what to do with them,
though Spoon of Destiny has a built in retcon escape clause. Then
again he was part of the thing that's was keeping me away from those
projects. Martin is right that I wasn't writing much and that's
partially because of him. I was frustrated by how he didn't seem to
have any interest in following the plot or understanding any idea that
relies on some degree of complex symbolism. I was frustrated at having
to clean up after his messes and also afraid to put in anything really
interesting and complicated for fear he'd write up a chapter with no
thought put into it and mess that up. I did involve his characters
earlier because he said we could use them and gave the impression he
wasn't interested in LNH20, but then came on board and refused to
listen to the people who had actually been involved. I don't know. In
a way I'm glad he wrote something this offensive and patently awful
because then I could write about all the things that were irritating
me about his work with no guilt. I should have gotten into that
earlier, we really need some constructive criticism, but I was afraid
of starting a passive aggressive slap fight. I should have known it
would only be a matter of time.
Anyway, I'm mainly going to concentrate now on the next parts of
Ultimate Mercenary until we can sort out some of these issues.
AJM (how come my spellchecker doesn't recognize retcon as a word?)
Martin Phipps
Jun 18, 2012, 8:17:30 PM6/18/12
to
Martin
Andrew Perron
Jun 18, 2012, 8:46:45 PM6/18/12
to
On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:15:58 +0000 (UTC), Adrian J. McClure wrote:
> I did involve his characters
> earlier because he said we could use them and gave the impression he
> wasn't interested in LNH20, but then came on board and refused to
> listen to the people who had actually been involved.
Yeah, s'truth.
> I did involve his characters
> earlier because he said we could use them and gave the impression he
> wasn't interested in LNH20, but then came on board and refused to
> listen to the people who had actually been involved.
Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, blaugh
Martin Phipps
Jun 18, 2012, 10:25:50 PM6/18/12
to
On Jun 18, 5:15 pm, "Adrian J. McClure" <mrfantast...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> The problem is that both of the big
> collaborative projects that are going on right now involve his
> characters to some extent and it's hard to know what to do with them,
> though Spoon of Destiny has a built in retcon escape clause. Then
> again he was part of the thing that's was keeping me away from those
> projects. Martin is right that I wasn't writing much and that's
> partially because of him.
I knew it. You do realize that blaming other people for your own
failings is extremely immature, right?
> I was frustrated by how he didn't seem to
> have any interest in following the plot
You forgot about Doctor Mood, not me. And you forgot that days had
passed, not hours. You have this tendency to blame other people for
your own mistakes. That's what five-year olds do. Most people grow
out of that stage and assume responsibility for their own actions.
> or understanding any idea that
> relies on some degree of complex symbolism.
Please. I haven't read much at all by Grant Morrison. I though Mr.
Morrison was going to be Jim Morrison. And for this you insult me?
For Heaven's sake, grow up!
> I was frustrated at having
> to clean up after his messes and also afraid to put in anything really
> interesting and complicated for fear he'd write up a chapter with no
> thought put into it and mess that up. I did involve his characters
> earlier because he said we could use them and gave the impression he
> wasn't interested in LNH20, but then came on board and refused to
> listen to the people who had actually been involved.
That's a lie. You used Googlemesh without asking permission first.
Period. And then you and Andrew neglected to inform me when you
started making plans involving Googlemesh.
> I don't know. In
> a way I'm glad he wrote something this offensive and patently awful
It's only offensive to somebody who has the mind of a five-year old.
Seriously.
> because then I could write about all the things that were irritating
> me about his work with no guilt.
No guilt? You don't feel guilty about acting -by your own admission-
like a "dick"?
> I should have gotten into that
> earlier, we really need some constructive criticism, but I was afraid
> of starting a passive aggressive slap fight. I should have known it
> would only be a matter of time.
What you neglect to tell people is that I have sent you e-mail asking
you what your problem with me is. I frankly still don't know. Based
on what you've said, am apparently too "reasonable".
> Anyway, I'm mainly going to concentrate now on the next parts of
> Ultimate Mercenary until we can sort out some of these issues.
Like I said, you can just kill Googlemesh off. I am not the least bit
looking forward to seeing the hack job you will do on the characters I
created. (It's Google LAD, not Google MAN. Google Man was his
mentor.)
In the future, if you want to use ANY of my characters, please ask. I
will say "No".
Martin... extremely pissed off now
wrote:
> The problem is that both of the big
> collaborative projects that are going on right now involve his
> characters to some extent and it's hard to know what to do with them,
> though Spoon of Destiny has a built in retcon escape clause. Then
> again he was part of the thing that's was keeping me away from those
> projects. Martin is right that I wasn't writing much and that's
> partially because of him.
failings is extremely immature, right?
> I was frustrated by how he didn't seem to
> have any interest in following the plot
passed, not hours. You have this tendency to blame other people for
your own mistakes. That's what five-year olds do. Most people grow
out of that stage and assume responsibility for their own actions.
> or understanding any idea that
> relies on some degree of complex symbolism.
Morrison was going to be Jim Morrison. And for this you insult me?
For Heaven's sake, grow up!
> I was frustrated at having
> to clean up after his messes and also afraid to put in anything really
> interesting and complicated for fear he'd write up a chapter with no
> thought put into it and mess that up. I did involve his characters
> earlier because he said we could use them and gave the impression he
> wasn't interested in LNH20, but then came on board and refused to
> listen to the people who had actually been involved.
Period. And then you and Andrew neglected to inform me when you
started making plans involving Googlemesh.
> I don't know. In
> a way I'm glad he wrote something this offensive and patently awful
Seriously.
> because then I could write about all the things that were irritating
> me about his work with no guilt.
like a "dick"?
> I should have gotten into that
> earlier, we really need some constructive criticism, but I was afraid
> of starting a passive aggressive slap fight. I should have known it
> would only be a matter of time.
you what your problem with me is. I frankly still don't know. Based
on what you've said, am apparently too "reasonable".
> Anyway, I'm mainly going to concentrate now on the next parts of
> Ultimate Mercenary until we can sort out some of these issues.
looking forward to seeing the hack job you will do on the characters I
created. (It's Google LAD, not Google MAN. Google Man was his
mentor.)
In the future, if you want to use ANY of my characters, please ask. I
will say "No".
Martin... extremely pissed off now
Martin Phipps
Jun 18, 2012, 10:36:25 PM6/18/12
to
On Jun 18, 5:46 pm, Andrew Perron <pwer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:15:58 +0000 (UTC), Adrian J. McClure wrote:
> > I did involve his characters
> > earlier because he said we could use them and gave the impression he
> > wasn't interested in LNH20, but then came on board and refused to
> > listen to the people who had actually been involved.
>
> Yeah, s'truth.
No. It's just more bullshit and you know that.
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:15:58 +0000 (UTC), Adrian J. McClure wrote:
> > I did involve his characters
> > earlier because he said we could use them and gave the impression he
> > wasn't interested in LNH20, but then came on board and refused to
> > listen to the people who had actually been involved.
>
> Yeah, s'truth.
Martin
Lalo Martins
Jun 19, 2012, 3:59:32 PM6/19/12
to
quoth Martin Phipps as of Tue, 19 Jun 2012 02:25:50 +0000:
> On Jun 18, 5:15 pm, "Adrian J. McClure" <mrfantast...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The problem is that both of the big collaborative projects that are
>> going on right now involve his characters to some extent and it's hard
>> to know what to do with them, though Spoon of Destiny has a built in
>> retcon escape clause. Then again he was part of the thing that's was
>> keeping me away from those projects. Martin is right that I wasn't
>> writing much and that's partially because of him.
>
> I knew it. You do realize that blaming other people for your own
> failings is extremely immature, right?
[...]
one of my first works was built around one of you concepts.
However, in all this time, every single instance of something burning me
out and making me lose interest in the group has involved a flamewar
where you (a) act like a prick then (b) refuse to admit you may have
possibly done anything wrong.
I'm sorry, but this is where I say: either you're wrong, or you're right
and you've been right all along and we're all wrong and we're all
douchebags and you're better off without us.
-- Lalo “I don't have any damns left to give ATM” Martins
> On Jun 18, 5:15 pm, "Adrian J. McClure" <mrfantast...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The problem is that both of the big collaborative projects that are
>> going on right now involve his characters to some extent and it's hard
>> to know what to do with them, though Spoon of Destiny has a built in
>> retcon escape clause. Then again he was part of the thing that's was
>> keeping me away from those projects. Martin is right that I wasn't
>> writing much and that's partially because of him.
>
> I knew it. You do realize that blaming other people for your own
> failings is extremely immature, right?
>
> Martin... extremely pissed off now
Martin: in my early days around RACC, I had a lot of admiration for you;
> Martin... extremely pissed off now
one of my first works was built around one of you concepts.
However, in all this time, every single instance of something burning me
out and making me lose interest in the group has involved a flamewar
where you (a) act like a prick then (b) refuse to admit you may have
possibly done anything wrong.
I'm sorry, but this is where I say: either you're wrong, or you're right
and you've been right all along and we're all wrong and we're all
douchebags and you're better off without us.
-- Lalo “I don't have any damns left to give ATM” Martins
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 19, 2012, 4:45:10 PM6/19/12
to
So, people who aren't Martin, do you think the issue I'm writing right
now should be issue 52, or should I call it issue 51 and pretend that
never happened? I could end up playing off the "cosmic beings declare
WikiBoy has to suffer" part and ignoring everything else.
AJM (tearing myself away from Tumblr)
now should be issue 52, or should I call it issue 51 and pretend that
never happened? I could end up playing off the "cosmic beings declare
WikiBoy has to suffer" part and ignoring everything else.
AJM (tearing myself away from Tumblr)
Martin Phipps
Jun 19, 2012, 6:07:55 PM6/19/12
to
am not upset about that. There are other things. Nevertheless, yes,
most people would have given up on them before now.
I am unsubscribing now. At least I can sign off knowing my last story
was a good one.
Martin
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 19, 2012, 6:41:41 PM6/19/12
to
http://creepingmonsterism.tumblr.com/post/25462703149/from-avengers-57-by-roy-thomas-and-john-buscema
AJM (and now, to the future!)
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 19, 2012, 7:52:01 PM6/19/12
to
LNH v2 #51 add-on. Written by Adrian J. McClure
I'm not at all sure this is a good idea. But, as they say on Tumblr,
YOLO.
****
The Crossover Queen surveyed the scene of the battle with disgust. The
sickeningly adorable fan-art duplicates of the Avengers were
massacring her gorilla legions. She turned to the latest prize of her
conquest: the severed head of hte Internet Oracle. "Oracle," she
asked, "why have all our attempts to conquer the Tumblrverse failed?
And the Oracle spoke: "Dear Crossover Queen,
"RACC is being held back by one particular author. You know the one.
Get rid of him and everything will be just fine.
"You owe the Oracle a signed copy of One More Day."
The Crossover Queen frowned. She could never do what the Oracle
suggested on her own. But she knew of someone who could.
And so it was that she found herself face to face with Arthur E.L.
Presence.
"You went to some effort to find me," said the metafictional assassin.
"What do you want?"
"We have a common enemy," said the Crossover Queen. "There is an
author who is restricting RACC's creativity and its capacity to grow.
You have been tainted by his touch as well. I want you to get rid of
him once and for all."
"Hmmm," said Arthur E.L. Presence. "What you're suggesting is not to
be done lightly. If I go to the highest level of reality I can and
kill him, that will destroy his creativity, such as he has. It will be
the end of him as a writer. And it will destroy all his creations as
if they had never been. Do you realize the effect that would have on
reality? Not that I care for reality myself, I just wonder if you know
what you're doing."
"Yes. But if I am to rise above Usenet and conquer new worlds, it must
be done."
"Then so be it." And Arthur E.L. Presence rose through the levels of
reality, to the very edge of the Fourth Wall.
Meanwhile, the writer in question was working on his next message in
response to all the idiots who hated his story. People were always
getting on his case for no reason. And they actually wanted him to
apologize! Didn't they see he was just making a joke? Sometimes he
wondered why he didn't just leave. But then he knew: because he needed
to show them he was right. He had to show them. He had to.
He started typing his next sentence, but the words on the page weren't
what he had in mind. The sentence read: "Arthur E.L. Presence stood
behind the writer, holding his gun in his hand." He erased the
sentence, then wrote it again. It was still the same. Then he turend
around. Arthur E.L. Presence was there, on the other side of the room.
"What are you doing here? What do you want?"
"For you to die."
The writer's heart was pounding. He knew he could survive this. He was
the writer here. He was in control. He summoned Neo from the Matrix.
Neo pulled out his gun and sent a hail of bullets at Arthur E.L.
Presence, leaping around the world. Arthur E.L. Presence stood still.
The bullets didn't effect him a bit. "The bird fights its way out of
the egg," he said. "The egg is the world. Who would be born must
destroy a world. The bird flies to God. That God's name is Abraxas."
Neo's skin began to crack open. A small blue bird burst from what had
been Neo and flew through the walls into the sky.
The writer's heart pounded faster. He summoned Superman, who burst
through the walls and aimed his heat vision at Arthur E.L. Presence.
He took a mirror out of his pocket. The mirror reflected Superman's
vision back at him and he burst into flames.
"No," said the writer. "No." He needed to think of another movie,
something that could defeat him. Somehow his mind went back to Peter
Pan. Maybe it was because people had been telling him to grow up. He
summoned a crocodile, the alarm clock ticking in its stomach, which
headed off the assassin. Arthur E.L. Presence grabbed the crocodile
and swallowed him whole. "You can do whatever has been done before,"
he said. "But I can imagine what has never been." He held the gun to
the writer's temple. "Goodbye."
"No." The writer was sobbing, horrified and ashamed by his own display
of emotion. "No, please don't. I have a wife. I have children."
"They are not real. Neither are you. They are reflections of your own
ego. Your real self's wife and children will thank me, perhaps. He
will have much more time for them now." He pulled the trigger,
unleashing the bullet the Crossover Queen had forged from pure
creativity stolen from the hearts of dead writers and artists.
"And I saw Satan falling from the heavens as lightning."
The writer screamed.
On the Looniearth, Browsing Boy woke up alone in bed. He felt a
terrible emptiness and did not know why.
Devastator woke up in bed, wondering what the strange dream had meant.
"Ho!"
"What did you call me?" said Sister State-The-Obvious.
"Something evil is afoot! I fear the very fabric of reality has been
damaged! To me, my Omni-Blade!" The Omni-Blade flew across the room
and landed in his hand.
"Darling, go back to sleep," said Sister State-The-Obvious. "It's
probably just a retcon. It's nothing you can deal with by hitting it
with your sword."
Devastator sighed. He tramped out of the room, looking for a problem
he _could_ solve by hitting it with his sword.
And the corpse of the author that had been fell through the levels of
reality, headed straight for the Looniearth.
****
Well. Alea jacta est, as they say.
The Crossover Queen was created by Jeff "Drizzt" Barnes, currently
reserved by me
The Internet Oracle was created by various people and in the Real
World remains undaunted and undecapitated on the Internet Oracle
mailing list and rec.humor.oracle.
Arthur E.L. Presence was created by Steven Howard
Browsing Boy was created by Jeffrey Klein
Sister State-the-Obvious was created by wReam
Devastator was created by me, Free for Use. You'll be learning more
about him soon enough.
And I'm reserving the corpse.
I'm not at all sure this is a good idea. But, as they say on Tumblr,
YOLO.
****
The Crossover Queen surveyed the scene of the battle with disgust. The
sickeningly adorable fan-art duplicates of the Avengers were
massacring her gorilla legions. She turned to the latest prize of her
conquest: the severed head of hte Internet Oracle. "Oracle," she
asked, "why have all our attempts to conquer the Tumblrverse failed?
And the Oracle spoke: "Dear Crossover Queen,
"RACC is being held back by one particular author. You know the one.
Get rid of him and everything will be just fine.
"You owe the Oracle a signed copy of One More Day."
The Crossover Queen frowned. She could never do what the Oracle
suggested on her own. But she knew of someone who could.
And so it was that she found herself face to face with Arthur E.L.
Presence.
"You went to some effort to find me," said the metafictional assassin.
"What do you want?"
"We have a common enemy," said the Crossover Queen. "There is an
author who is restricting RACC's creativity and its capacity to grow.
You have been tainted by his touch as well. I want you to get rid of
him once and for all."
"Hmmm," said Arthur E.L. Presence. "What you're suggesting is not to
be done lightly. If I go to the highest level of reality I can and
kill him, that will destroy his creativity, such as he has. It will be
the end of him as a writer. And it will destroy all his creations as
if they had never been. Do you realize the effect that would have on
reality? Not that I care for reality myself, I just wonder if you know
what you're doing."
"Yes. But if I am to rise above Usenet and conquer new worlds, it must
be done."
"Then so be it." And Arthur E.L. Presence rose through the levels of
reality, to the very edge of the Fourth Wall.
Meanwhile, the writer in question was working on his next message in
response to all the idiots who hated his story. People were always
getting on his case for no reason. And they actually wanted him to
apologize! Didn't they see he was just making a joke? Sometimes he
wondered why he didn't just leave. But then he knew: because he needed
to show them he was right. He had to show them. He had to.
He started typing his next sentence, but the words on the page weren't
what he had in mind. The sentence read: "Arthur E.L. Presence stood
behind the writer, holding his gun in his hand." He erased the
sentence, then wrote it again. It was still the same. Then he turend
around. Arthur E.L. Presence was there, on the other side of the room.
"What are you doing here? What do you want?"
"For you to die."
The writer's heart was pounding. He knew he could survive this. He was
the writer here. He was in control. He summoned Neo from the Matrix.
Neo pulled out his gun and sent a hail of bullets at Arthur E.L.
Presence, leaping around the world. Arthur E.L. Presence stood still.
The bullets didn't effect him a bit. "The bird fights its way out of
the egg," he said. "The egg is the world. Who would be born must
destroy a world. The bird flies to God. That God's name is Abraxas."
Neo's skin began to crack open. A small blue bird burst from what had
been Neo and flew through the walls into the sky.
The writer's heart pounded faster. He summoned Superman, who burst
through the walls and aimed his heat vision at Arthur E.L. Presence.
He took a mirror out of his pocket. The mirror reflected Superman's
vision back at him and he burst into flames.
"No," said the writer. "No." He needed to think of another movie,
something that could defeat him. Somehow his mind went back to Peter
Pan. Maybe it was because people had been telling him to grow up. He
summoned a crocodile, the alarm clock ticking in its stomach, which
headed off the assassin. Arthur E.L. Presence grabbed the crocodile
and swallowed him whole. "You can do whatever has been done before,"
he said. "But I can imagine what has never been." He held the gun to
the writer's temple. "Goodbye."
"No." The writer was sobbing, horrified and ashamed by his own display
of emotion. "No, please don't. I have a wife. I have children."
"They are not real. Neither are you. They are reflections of your own
ego. Your real self's wife and children will thank me, perhaps. He
will have much more time for them now." He pulled the trigger,
unleashing the bullet the Crossover Queen had forged from pure
creativity stolen from the hearts of dead writers and artists.
"And I saw Satan falling from the heavens as lightning."
The writer screamed.
On the Looniearth, Browsing Boy woke up alone in bed. He felt a
terrible emptiness and did not know why.
Devastator woke up in bed, wondering what the strange dream had meant.
"Ho!"
"What did you call me?" said Sister State-The-Obvious.
"Something evil is afoot! I fear the very fabric of reality has been
damaged! To me, my Omni-Blade!" The Omni-Blade flew across the room
and landed in his hand.
"Darling, go back to sleep," said Sister State-The-Obvious. "It's
probably just a retcon. It's nothing you can deal with by hitting it
with your sword."
Devastator sighed. He tramped out of the room, looking for a problem
he _could_ solve by hitting it with his sword.
And the corpse of the author that had been fell through the levels of
reality, headed straight for the Looniearth.
****
Well. Alea jacta est, as they say.
The Crossover Queen was created by Jeff "Drizzt" Barnes, currently
reserved by me
The Internet Oracle was created by various people and in the Real
World remains undaunted and undecapitated on the Internet Oracle
mailing list and rec.humor.oracle.
Arthur E.L. Presence was created by Steven Howard
Browsing Boy was created by Jeffrey Klein
Sister State-the-Obvious was created by wReam
Devastator was created by me, Free for Use. You'll be learning more
about him soon enough.
And I'm reserving the corpse.
Arthur Spitzer
Jun 19, 2012, 11:14:25 PM6/19/12
to
On 6/19/12 4:52 PM, Adrian J. McClure wrote:
> LNH v2 #51 add-on. Written by Adrian J. McClure
>
> I'm not at all sure this is a good idea. But, as they say on Tumblr,
> YOLO.
>
> ****
>
Umm... while I'm not a fan of Martin (at least the person... I did enjoy
> LNH v2 #51 add-on. Written by Adrian J. McClure
>
> I'm not at all sure this is a good idea. But, as they say on Tumblr,
> YOLO.
>
> ****
>
some of the stuff he wrote) and am kind of glad that he's finally left
RACC... I think this story is in very poor taste and a very bad idea...
and I think it would be best if you retcon it away.
I think it would be best in this post-Martin age to leave behind the
bitter ax grinding stories...
As for Martin's characters.. I'd just assume that they're taking
vacations or something like that... also there are still people out
there on RACC like Rob or Saxon that I'm guessing Martin wouldn't mind
if they wrote his characters (could be wrong about that)...
Two Flame War bait stories don't make a right...
Arthur "Can we move on?" Spitzer
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 19, 2012, 11:38:41 PM6/19/12
to
I have been talking to people from the old days on Calvin and EVERYONE
had problems with Martin at some point. Scav and Mike Escutia both
mentioned that Martin was a huge reason they left. He just created an
incredibly toxic climate for everyone and did a LOT of damage to the
group over the years, to a degree I didn't appreciate until very
recently. The same thing was happening to me and Lalo now as well.
(Nothing could kill Andrew's interest in the LNH.) And his refusal to
admit how offensive his story was was super frustrating. I should have
asked beforehand, though, I'm sorry.
The thing was, though, I didn't mean to entirely kill him off, and the
idea was that this could be read as killing off the bad/egotistical
part of him so the good part of him can flourish. That was sort of
indicated by Arthur E.L. Presence's line about real life. Maybe he can
learn from this experience though the precedent isn't good.
That said, I for one am going on assuming as if his characters never
existed, simply because I have enough interesting characters and plots
that are specifically based on that. However, they could still exist
in the Beige Midnight timeline and make things super awkward for
everyone when they come back, I don't know.
AJM (writes too many stories about alternate timelnes and things)
Andrew Perron
Jun 19, 2012, 11:47:04 PM6/19/12
to
On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 03:14:25 +0000 (UTC), Arthur Spitzer wrote:
> Umm... while I'm not a fan of Martin (at least the person... I did enjoy
> some of the stuff he wrote) and am kind of glad that he's finally left
> RACC... I think this story is in very poor taste and a very bad idea...
> and I think it would be best if you retcon it away.
>
> I think it would be best in this post-Martin age to leave behind the
> bitter ax grinding stories...
Hm. You could recontextualize it as a dream or a vision... something more
> Umm... while I'm not a fan of Martin (at least the person... I did enjoy
> some of the stuff he wrote) and am kind of glad that he's finally left
> RACC... I think this story is in very poor taste and a very bad idea...
> and I think it would be best if you retcon it away.
>
> I think it would be best in this post-Martin age to leave behind the
> bitter ax grinding stories...
metaphorical than the "you die" thing.
> As for Martin's characters.. I'd just assume that they're taking
> vacations or something like that... also there are still people out
> there on RACC like Rob or Saxon that I'm guessing Martin wouldn't mind
> if they wrote his characters (could be wrong about that)...
opportunities.
One idea I had was that they were transported over to the LNHX Earth.
> Two Flame War bait stories don't make a right...
>
> Arthur "Can we move on?" Spitzer
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 19, 2012, 11:58:50 PM6/19/12
to
On Jun 19, 11:47 pm, Andrew Perron <pwer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hm. You could recontextualize it as a dream or a vision... something more
> metaphorical than the "you die" thing.
>
Sounds good to me! The problem is this is too benevolent for the
> Hm. You could recontextualize it as a dream or a vision... something more
> metaphorical than the "you die" thing.
>
Crossover Queen. But if her role in the story was taken by Time
Crapper IV, who I also want to play around with...
> See, I like the whole "no longer in this continuity" idea. It opens up new
> opportunities.
>
> One idea I had was that they were transported over to the LNHX Earth.
>
> > Two Flame War bait stories don't make a right...
>
> > Arthur "Can we move on?" Spitzer
>
> Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, agreed.
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 20, 2012, 12:08:13 AM6/20/12
to
Also! I think the revised version would work better if I posted
Crossover Queen's origin first, for reasons that will be apparent. But
before that, I need to get in contact with a long-absent but still-
active author, for reasons that will *also* become apparent. So that
might not be in a bit. It's probably better if I actually think it
over anyway.
AJM (getting caught up on sleep for a change)
Crossover Queen's origin first, for reasons that will be apparent. But
before that, I need to get in contact with a long-absent but still-
active author, for reasons that will *also* become apparent. So that
might not be in a bit. It's probably better if I actually think it
over anyway.
AJM (getting caught up on sleep for a change)
Andrew Perron
Jun 20, 2012, 1:11:55 AM6/20/12
to
On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 23:52:01 +0000 (UTC), Adrian J. McClure wrote:
> LNH v2 #51 add-on. Written by Adrian J. McClure
>
> I'm not at all sure this is a good idea. But, as they say on Tumblr,
> YOLO.
See, I plan to just keep reincarnating.
> LNH v2 #51 add-on. Written by Adrian J. McClure
>
> I'm not at all sure this is a good idea. But, as they say on Tumblr,
> YOLO.
> The Crossover Queen surveyed the scene of the battle with disgust. The
> sickeningly adorable fan-art duplicates of the Avengers were
> massacring her gorilla legions. She turned to the latest prize of her
> conquest: the severed head of hte Internet Oracle. "Oracle," she
> asked, "why have all our attempts to conquer the Tumblrverse failed?
> And the Oracle spoke: "Dear Crossover Queen,
YES SO GREAT WIN
Skipping the fight scene, since much as been bruted on that already...
> Devastator woke up in bed, wondering what the strange dream had meant.
> "Ho!"
>
> "What did you call me?" said Sister State-The-Obvious.
> "Something evil is afoot! I fear the very fabric of reality has been
> damaged! To me, my Omni-Blade!" The Omni-Blade flew across the room
> and landed in his hand.
>
> "Darling, go back to sleep," said Sister State-The-Obvious. "It's
> probably just a retcon. It's nothing you can deal with by hitting it
> with your sword."
>
> Devastator sighed. He tramped out of the room, looking for a problem
> he _could_ solve by hitting it with his sword.
Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, author corpses... hmmm
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 20, 2012, 10:26:12 AM6/20/12
to
So Arthur and Rob are right. I'm taking this out of continuity to make
it less bitter, more LNH-ish, and more, well, me. (Assuming we decide
on retconning Martin's characters.)
Also, I'm going to ignore issue 51 in numbering but I still want the
next issue to be #52 becuase of the DC revamp. But the revised version
would work better as an issue of Looniverse Chronicles. So I'll leave
#51 as an open spot. It could be the next part of Saxon's story, could
be something else.
AJM (getting the other issues done)
it less bitter, more LNH-ish, and more, well, me. (Assuming we decide
on retconning Martin's characters.)
Also, I'm going to ignore issue 51 in numbering but I still want the
next issue to be #52 becuase of the DC revamp. But the revised version
would work better as an issue of Looniverse Chronicles. So I'll leave
#51 as an open spot. It could be the next part of Saxon's story, could
be something else.
AJM (getting the other issues done)
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 20, 2012, 5:12:43 PM6/20/12
to
On Jun 20, 1:11 am, Andrew Perron <pwer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 23:52:01 +0000 (UTC), Adrian J. McClure wrote:
> I LOVE THE INTERNET ORACLE I forgot to mention this to you earlier but YES
> YES SO GREAT WIN
That, like most of the actual good stuff in this story, was going to
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 23:52:01 +0000 (UTC), Adrian J. McClure wrote:
> I LOVE THE INTERNET ORACLE I forgot to mention this to you earlier but YES
> YES SO GREAT WIN
be in the framing sequence for the Crossover Queen's origin story.
I'm
> Neat! I like this guy.
him to replace Master Blaster, I might move him to LNH20.
>
> Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, author corpses... hmmm
of the repressed hate of every author who has ever been. In #52, it...
well, you'll see. However, if you want an authorial corpse for
something, feel free to kill me off. It would be nice if it wasn't Tom
for a change.
Also, I realize I didn't get at all into the bigotry in that story,
even though it was an important part of what irked me enough to write
that. Instead I focused more on the bad qualities of Martin's writing
and his style of relating to people which were so persistently
frustrating for so many of us, to the point of being a decisive factor
in driving people who had a lot more to contribute away. (As people
hanging around Calvin know, at least one of them might be coming back
now...) But that was really the central issue; you focused on that and
I didn't. Good on you.
AJM (and I'll shut up about all this now until I write the actual
stories)
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 20, 2012, 5:17:26 PM6/20/12
to
On Jun 20, 5:12 pm, "Adrian J. McClure" <mrfantast...@gmail.com>
wrote:
be up tonight.
AJM (grrr argh)
wrote:
> That, like most of the actual good stuff in this story, was going to
> be in the framing sequence for the Crossover Queen's origin story.
> I'm
>
What I *meant* to say is that I'm putting it back in there. This will
> be in the framing sequence for the Crossover Queen's origin story.
> I'm
>
be up tonight.
AJM (grrr argh)
Mitchell Crouch
Jun 20, 2012, 8:54:48 PM6/20/12
to
Hey guys, what's going o- oh. Oh. I, uh, I, I guess I'll just be chilling out, over here, or something? :|
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 20, 2012, 8:56:18 PM6/20/12
to
On Jun 20, 8:54 pm, Mitchell Crouch <msc...@uowmail.edu.au> wrote:
> Hey guys, what's going o- oh. Oh. I, uh, I, I guess I'll just be chilling out, over here, or something? :|
Well, I'm pretty sure we've used up all our drama for the year now,
> Hey guys, what's going o- oh. Oh. I, uh, I, I guess I'll just be chilling out, over here, or something? :|
so.
AJM (maybe the decade)
Andrew Perron
Jun 20, 2012, 10:11:40 PM6/20/12
to
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 00:54:48 +0000 (UTC), Mitchell Crouch wrote:
> Hey guys, what's going o- oh. Oh. I, uh, I, I guess I'll just be chilling
> out, over here, or something? :|
XD Tarq no, come back, it's okay
> Hey guys, what's going o- oh. Oh. I, uh, I, I guess I'll just be chilling
> out, over here, or something? :|
Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, everything is okay, nothing hurts
Andrew Perron
Jun 21, 2012, 11:34:49 AM6/21/12
to
On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 21:12:43 +0000 (UTC), Adrian J. McClure wrote:
> On Jun 20, 1:11 am, Andrew Perron <pwer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 23:52:01 +0000 (UTC), Adrian J. McClure wrote:
>> I LOVE THE INTERNET ORACLE I forgot to mention this to you earlier but YES
>> YES SO GREAT WIN
>
> That, like most of the actual good stuff in this story, was going to
> be in the framing sequence for the Crossover Queen's origin story.
Ooooh. <3
> On Jun 20, 1:11 am, Andrew Perron <pwer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 23:52:01 +0000 (UTC), Adrian J. McClure wrote:
>> I LOVE THE INTERNET ORACLE I forgot to mention this to you earlier but YES
>> YES SO GREAT WIN
>
> That, like most of the actual good stuff in this story, was going to
> be in the framing sequence for the Crossover Queen's origin story.
>> Neat! I like this guy.
>
> Well I'll write up his origin issue soon. If we don't decide to use
> him to replace Master Blaster, I might move him to LNH20.
> Also, I realize I didn't get at all into the bigotry in that story,
> even though it was an important part of what irked me enough to write
> that. Instead I focused more on the bad qualities of Martin's writing
> and his style of relating to people which were so persistently
> frustrating for so many of us, to the point of being a decisive factor
> in driving people who had a lot more to contribute away. (As people
> hanging around Calvin know, at least one of them might be coming back
> now...)
> But that was really the central issue; you focused on that and
> I didn't. Good on you.
Andrew "NO .SIG MAN" "Juan" Perron, and I check my messages~ and it turns
out I have a lot of messages~
Adrian J. McClure
Jun 21, 2012, 6:51:08 PM6/21/12
to
So I've decided that I don't need to write that story after all. Even
in revised form, it just isn't necessary. Lalo's story and Andrew's
add-on were all that needed to be said. There were some interesting
things I would have gotten at, involving empathy and storytelling and
living in community, but I'm writing other stories that happen to deal
with those things in a more organic and complex way that's not just
about indicting one specific person but about all of us. And really,
we should just let this die. We have so many great things to look
forward to in our future; we don't need to dwell on the failures of
our past. That is my last word specifcially about Martin.
Well... not quite. The next scene for #50 is what I *should* have
posted in response to Martin's story--not him--instead of what I did.
But again, it's not directly about him.
Adrian (And that gives me one less obstacle to writing the Devastator
story)
in revised form, it just isn't necessary. Lalo's story and Andrew's
add-on were all that needed to be said. There were some interesting
things I would have gotten at, involving empathy and storytelling and
living in community, but I'm writing other stories that happen to deal
with those things in a more organic and complex way that's not just
about indicting one specific person but about all of us. And really,
we should just let this die. We have so many great things to look
forward to in our future; we don't need to dwell on the failures of
our past. That is my last word specifcially about Martin.
Well... not quite. The next scene for #50 is what I *should* have
posted in response to Martin's story--not him--instead of what I did.
But again, it's not directly about him.
Adrian (And that gives me one less obstacle to writing the Devastator
story)
Andrew Perron
Jun 21, 2012, 6:53:08 PM6/21/12
to
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 22:51:08 +0000 (UTC), Adrian J. McClure wrote:
> So I've decided that I don't need to write that story after all. Even
> in revised form, it just isn't necessary. Lalo's story and Andrew's
> add-on were all that needed to be said. There were some interesting
> things I would have gotten at, involving empathy and storytelling and
> living in community, but I'm writing other stories that happen to deal
> with those things in a more organic and complex way that's not just
> about indicting one specific person but about all of us. And really,
> we should just let this die. We have so many great things to look
> forward to in our future; we don't need to dwell on the failures of
> our past. That is my last word specifcially about Martin.
Works for me!
> So I've decided that I don't need to write that story after all. Even
> in revised form, it just isn't necessary. Lalo's story and Andrew's
> add-on were all that needed to be said. There were some interesting
> things I would have gotten at, involving empathy and storytelling and
> living in community, but I'm writing other stories that happen to deal
> with those things in a more organic and complex way that's not just
> about indicting one specific person but about all of us. And really,
> we should just let this die. We have so many great things to look
> forward to in our future; we don't need to dwell on the failures of
> our past. That is my last word specifcially about Martin.
> Well... not quite. The next scene for #50 is what I *should* have
> posted in response to Martin's story--not him--instead of what I did.
> But again, it's not directly about him.
> Adrian (And that gives me one less obstacle to writing the Devastator
> story)
Saxon Brenton
Jun 25, 2012, 2:37:49 PM6/25/12
to
On 21 June 2012 Adrian wrote:
> Also, I'm going to ignore issue 51 in numbering but I still want the
> next issue to be #52 becuase of the DC revamp. But the revised version
> would work better as an issue of Looniverse Chronicles. So I'll leave
> #51 as an open spot. It could be the next part of Saxon's story, could
> be something else.
>
> AJM (getting the other issues done)
> Also, I'm going to ignore issue 51 in numbering but I still want the
> next issue to be #52 becuase of the DC revamp. But the revised version
> would work better as an issue of Looniverse Chronicles. So I'll leave
> #51 as an open spot. It could be the next part of Saxon's story, could
> be something else.
>
> AJM (getting the other issues done)
I was originally planning on simply having the conclusion of my story be
#49 part 2, simply to keep the sections together in the 'archives'; both
the literal archives at Eyrie.org and the metaphorical archives of people
searching on google.
---
Saxon Brenton
#49 part 2, simply to keep the sections together in the 'archives'; both
the literal archives at Eyrie.org and the metaphorical archives of people
searching on google.
---
Saxon Brenton
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