the Roads of Middle-earth
Andrew Wells
like? Bare earth? Wood? Cobbles? Paved? Tarmac???
Andrew
--
Andrew Wells
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Matthias Eichstedt
hobbit bones?
Wide China Blue Yonder
/ like? Bare earth? Wood? Cobbles? Paved? Tarmac???
The road in Ithilien: "...or old paving stones still lurking amid weeds
and bushes..."
The roads in Eriador are rutted and potholed and overgrown, so I would go
with dirt, maybe on top of rocks or gravel. I think old Roman roads were
gravel for drainage and weight distribution with a clay surface, sometimes
flagged in the cities.
I think wood roads tend to be used for special purposes. Wood left in
ground is soon scavenged by termites and other insects.
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"... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker
and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..."
C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian"
Conrad Dunkerson
news:8gtss3$1vd9b$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> Does anyone have any thoughts on what any of the roads of Middle-
> earth were like? Bare earth? Wood? Cobbles? Paved? Tarmac???
Marble?
"A road had been laid against this festival from the westward gate
of Kor even to the turrets of the mighty arch which opened in the
walls of Valmar northward towards the Trees. Of white marble it was
and many a gentle stream flowing from the far mountains crossed its
path."
BoLT, The Theft of Melko
Obviously Valinor was an unusual case. However, there are a number
of other passages about some interesting road construction in Arda;
An entry in the Lost Tales name list indicates that paved streets
were not unknown;
"Olore Malle For Olore see Lorien. malle 'street' appears in QL
under root MALA 'crush' (see Balrog); the Gnomish form is mal
'paved way, road', and the equivalent of Olore is Malmaurien (see
Murmuran)."
BoLT, Appendix
There is also a distinction given between 'made' roads and paths;
"(ii) On another page my father said that the journey from Eol's
house to Nan Elmoth in the direction of Nogrod was. through wilds
(but not generally in difficult country for horses) without any
made roads, but along a beaten track made by Dwarvish traders to
the Sarn Athrad..."
WotJ, Maeglin
There is a great deal of information about the routes of the Dwarf
roads in Beleriand, but not much regarding their construction.
"Though they were loth to migrate and make permanent dwellings or
'mansions' far from their original homes, except under great
pressure from enemies or after some catastrophe such as the ruin
of Beleriand, they were great and hardy travellers and skilled
road-makers..."
PoME, Of Dwarves and Men
The Numenoreans apparently knew how to make paved roads, but on the
island at least preferred dirt tracks;
"Therefore the roads of Numenor were for the most part unpaved,
made and tended for riding, since coaches and carriages were little
used in the earlier centuries, and heavy cargoes were borne by sea.
The chief and most ancient road suitable for wheels, ran from the
greatest port, Romenna in the east, to the royal city of Armenelos,
and thence on to the Valley of the Tombs and the Meneltarma; and
this road was early extended to Ondosto within the borders of the
Forostar, and thence to Andunie in the west."
UT, A Description of the Island of Numenor
In the realms of Gondor and Arnor they seem to have built true
roads;
"...both kingdoms shared an interest in this region, and together
built and maintained the Bridge of Tharbad and the long causeways
that carried the road to it on either side of the Gwathlo and
Mitheithel across the fens in the plains of Minhiriath and
Enedwaith. * A considerable garrison of soldiers, mariners and engineers
had been kept there until the seventeenth century of the Third Age. But
from then onwards the region fell quickly into decay; and long before
the time of The Lord of the Rings had gone back into wild fenlands. When
Boromir made his great journey from Gondor to Rivendell - the courage
and hardihood required is not fully recognized in the narrative-the
North-South Road no longer existed except for the crumbling remains of
the causeways, by which a hazardous approach to Tharbad might be
achieved..."
UT, The Port of Lond Daer
Causeways over swampland that still existed (even as crumbled
remnants) after a millennia of neglect would have to be of stone.
Orcs also seem to have made roads, though we don't know much about
what sort;
"Of Flinding he learns news of the Orc-band that captured Turin.
They hide and watch the host go by laden with spoil along the Orc-
road through the heart of the forest, which the Orcs use when in
need of haste."
SoME, The Earliest 'Silmarillion'
Saruman apparently had good roads;
"After they had ridden for some miles, the highway became a wide
street, paved with great flat stones, squared and laid with skill;
no blade of grass was seen in any joint. Deep gutters, filled with
trickling water. ran down on either side. Suddenly a tall pillar
loomed up before them. It was black; and set upon it was a great
stone, carved and painted in the likeness of a long White Hand."
TT, The Road to Isengard
The streets of Minas Tirith were also paved;
"He came at last by arched streets and many fair alleys and
pavements to the lowest and widest circle, and there he was
directed to the Lampwrights' Street, a broad way running towards
the Great Gate."
RotK, Minas Tirith
"So Theoden and Eowyn came to the City of Gondor, and all who saw
them bared their heads and bowed; and they passed through the ash
and fume of the burned circle, and went on and up along the streets
of stone."
RotK, The Houses of Healing
Though later they were apparently repaved in... marble again;
"In his time the City was made more fair than it had ever been,
even in the days of its first glory; and it was filled with trees
and with fountains, and its gates were wrought of mithril and
steel, and its streets were paved with white marble..."
RotK, The Steward and the King
Overall there seem to have been roads of dirt, paved roads, marble
roads, stone roads, wood roads (Laketown)... all sorts of roads.
And finally, the last road of all;
"Now living Men may not tread the swaying threads of Ilweran and
few of the Eldar have the heart, yet other paths for Elves and Men
to fare to Valinor are there none since those days save one alone,
and it is very dark; yet is it very short, the shortest and
swiftest of all roads, and very rough, for Mandos made it and Fui
set it in its place. Qalvanda is it called, the Road of Death, and
it leads only to the halls of Mandos and Fui."
BoLT, The Hiding of Valinor
Andrew Wells
<1fxY4.4435$Zm5.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
<snips>
Thanks very much, Conrad. I had totally forgotten most of those references.
Masked Man
|Good intentions?
Masked Man--->LOL!!
--
Who was that masked man?
Steuard Jensen
Stan Brown
>Good intentions?
Only the road to Angband.
Dave Lind
Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:1fxY4.4435$Zm5.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
<snip>
I'm impressed. Good work Conrad.
Dave
Carl Blondin
Andrew Wells wrote:
> Does anyone have any thoughts on what any of the roads of Middle-earth were
> like? Bare earth? Wood? Cobbles? Paved? Tarmac???
I'd say packed earth except in the big cities like Minas Tirith and in Gondor.
In Gondor I picture cobbled or roads made with slabs of rock (I forget the
exact term at the moment). They didn't have much use for anything else, and as
soon as you put something over your roads, maintenance is in order and I can
hardly picture teams going between Bree, Rivendell, Dale, Rohan and Minas
Tirith to take care of the all the roads.
Carl
stephen nipperess
Wide China Blue Yonder
You're thinking Thomas Covenant.
Carl Blondin
Wide China Blue Yonder wrote:
>
> / Does anyone have any thoughts on what any of the roads of Middle-earth were
> / like? Bare earth? Wood? Cobbles? Paved? Tarmac???
>
> The road in Ithilien: "...or old paving stones still lurking amid weeds
> and bushes..."
>
> The roads in Eriador are rutted and potholed and overgrown, so I would go
> with dirt, maybe on top of rocks or gravel. I think old Roman roads were
> gravel for drainage and weight distribution with a clay surface, sometimes
> flagged in the cities.
From what I've been taught, Roman roads were mostly if not all flagged.
They needed to find something to do to all of those legionaires they had
lying around. So they built roads and aqueducts. Actually, I think
that someparts of the Via Apia are still intact.
Carl
Carl Blondin
Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
>
> "Andrew Wells" <nos...@wellinghall.force9.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:8gtss3$1vd9b$1...@fu-berlin.de...
>
>
PLease don't tell me that you remembered all or even most of those
without even looking. Even if the looking was just to get the exact
wording. That was truly impressive.
Carl
Jonathan White
"Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:0ryY4.7$v3.368@uchinews...
Is this Steuard's shortest ever posting? :-)
Jon
Conrad Dunkerson
news:3933B8F9...@po-box.mcgill.ca...
> PLease don't tell me that you remembered all or even most of
> those without even looking. Even if the looking was just to get
> the exact wording.
No, no... nothing like that. Had a long weekend, and thus had the
time to actually research an issue for once. I spent a couple of
hours tracking down half remembered references and checking
sections which seemed likely to have relevant info - I started
pretty much right after Andrew posted. Overall I didn't remember
more than half of that stuff before I found it... just went through
all the books systematically going down a mental checklist of
roughly what each chapter contained and whether it might have
anything worthwhile.
> That was truly impressive.
Thanks, to you and others. Every once in a while it's good to be
able to spend the time and thoroughly research a topic.
Carl Blondin
Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
>
> "Carl Blondin" <cbl...@po-box.mcgill.ca> wrote in message
> news:3933B8F9...@po-box.mcgill.ca...
>
> > PLease don't tell me that you remembered all or even most of
> > those without even looking. Even if the looking was just to get
> > the exact wording.
>
> No, no... nothing like that. Had a long weekend, and thus had the
> time to actually research an issue for once. I spent a couple of
> hours tracking down half remembered references and checking
> sections which seemed likely to have relevant info - I started
> pretty much right after Andrew posted. Overall I didn't remember
> more than half of that stuff before I found it... just went through
> all the books systematically going down a mental checklist of
> roughly what each chapter contained and whether it might have
> anything worthwhile.
>
Ouf.... I'm relieved
Carl
Oliver Brakmann
>
> PLease don't tell me that you remembered all or even most of those
> without even looking. Even if the looking was just to get the exact
And just take a look at the time of the original post and Conrad's reply.
Really impressive work. Respect.
And, *erm*, Conrad?
Do you have a life? ;-)
Well, maybe... ok, so it was a boring Sunday :)
See you,
Oliver Brakmann, aka Gremlin
<oliver....@privat.kkf.net>
Edward W. Beattie
Carl Blondin wrote in message <3932D498...@po-box.mcgill.ca>...
>
>
>Andrew Wells wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any thoughts on what any of the roads of Middle-earth
were
The Greenway seems to have been by definition just packed earth. The road to
Meduseld was "a wide rutted track" and, later on "a winding way", but within
the bounds of Meduseld itself was "a broad path, paved with hewn stones". I
read this as saying that the Rohirrim were not the original inhabitants of
the site, although the mounds by the side of the road indicate that "many
lives of men" had passed since they had settled there.
Interesting question, Andrew.
regards
EWB
China Blue Board
/ read this as saying that the Rohirrim were not the original inhabitants of
/ the site, although the mounds by the side of the road indicate that "many
/ lives of men" had passed since they had settled there.
No they were not, which was part of the problem. The lowlands were
originally inhabitted by Dunlanders and their ilk, and the highlands by
the people that became the Dead led by Aragorn. The Rohirrim moved in and
kicked the Dunlanders out leading to a very long episode of feuding and
invasion.
One hopes that Elessar finally solved this issue on way or another.
Andrew Wells
>Andrew Wells wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any thoughts on what any of the roads of Middle-earth
were
>> like? Bare earth? Wood? Cobbles? Paved? Tarmac???
>
>The Greenway seems to have been by definition just packed earth. The road
to
>Meduseld was "a wide rutted track" and, later on "a winding way", but
within
Very good point.
>, although the mounds by the side of the road indicate that "many
>lives of men" had passed since they had settled there.
>
>Interesting question, Andrew.
Thank you.
Edward W. Beattie
China Blue Board wrote in message ...
>No they were not, which was part of the problem. The lowlands were
>originally inhabitted by Dunlanders and their ilk, and the highlands by
>the people that became the Dead led by Aragorn. The Rohirrim moved in and
>kicked the Dunlanders out leading to a very long episode of feuding and
>invasion.
I'm not an expert on this, but I think the Army of the Dead were allies
(albeit unreliable) of Gondor, and at a similar level of tech., so I presume
it was they who hewed the stones, not the Dunlanders.
regards
EWB
China Blue Board
/ (albeit unreliable) of Gondor, and at a similar level of tech., so I presume
/ it was they who hewed the stones, not the Dunlanders.
Yes, Dunharrow and the high places of the White Mountains all seem to be a
common culture that produced the Dead. The lowlands, perhaps to the north
and west, were occupied by the same culture as Dunland; I think this was a
distinct culture from the Dead. There were also the wild men; JRRT
indicated they extended, at least at one time, from the western end of the
White Mountains to the Sea.
The Dead were Dead when Rohirrim arrived; the wild men hid in the forest;
and the Dunlanders were evicted out of the Gap.
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
>Yes, Dunharrow and the high places of the White Mountains all seem to be a
>common culture that produced the Dead. The lowlands, perhaps to the north
>and west, were occupied by the same culture as Dunland; I think this was a
>distinct culture from the Dead. There were also the wild men; JRRT
>indicated they extended, at least at one time, from the western end of the
>White Mountains to the Sea.
I am almost certain that I have read somewhere that the people of the White
Mountains were of the same ethnic stock as the Dunlanders. Does anyone know
for certain about this?
Öjevind
Conrad Dunkerson
news:Axw%4.6021$b55....@nntpserver.swip.net...
> I am almost certain that I have read somewhere that the people of
> the White Mountains were of the same ethnic stock as the
> Dunlanders. Does anyone know for certain about this?
Depends on which people of the White Mountains you are referring
to I think.
The ancient people who made Dunharrow and the Pukel statues
lived in and around the White Mountains and were of Wild Men /
Drug / Druedain origin.
The Dunlendings / people of Minhiriath / relatives of the 'Folk of
Haleth' also dwelt in and around the White Mountains at different
times (particularly after the Rohirrim took control of their
lands). An interesting note is that the Dunlendings became 'bad
guys' despite being as closely related to the Numenoreans as the
Rohirrim were... the reason being that they dwelt along the coast
and suffered from Numenorean imperialism, coming to hate their
distant kin and continuing that animosity against the exiles in
Gondor. The Rohirrim in contrast dwelt far inland and probably had
little contact with the Dunedain until they allied with Gondor.
There is quite a bit about the various human groups in PoME, Of
Dwarves and Men.