Balrog-Sauron relationship
Thomas...@cologne.de
and Sauron was. I find very little information in LotR, but it's fun to
speculate, and maybe somebody can shed some light on this from other
sources.
The Balrog appears to have been remarkably passive after wiping out the
Dwarven settlement at Moria. He doesn't even make an appearance at the
battle of Azanulbizar, where he certainly could have made a difference.
With hindsight, Azog's boasts to Nar after having killed Thror seem to be
designed to make everybody believe that an Orc did indeed rule Moria and
take attention away from the fact that a Balrog was there. The secrecy
worked very well; even Gandalf was not aware of the Balrog's existence.
The dwarves believed they had woken Durin's bane from sleep by minig.
OTOH, the timing coincidence between the Nazguls' move to Mordor and the
Balrog's appearance (both 1980 TA) seems to suggest coordinated action,
or maybe this was simply a year in which a lot of evil went on, and this
helped to wake the Balrog.
The Orcs from Moria cooperated in the hunt for the Company with Orcs from
Mordor and Isengard. I find it hard to believe that Sauron didn't learn
of the Balrog's existence from earlier encounters with Orcs from Moria,
and I also find it hard to believe that they didn't establish at least
some sort of contact.
So... what does this tell us about Balrog-Sauron relationships? I see
several possiblities, not necessarily exclusive:
- Sauron kept the Balrog in strategic reserve, to be used against
Lorien as a surprise weapon at time of war. This failed, because the
Balrog died in combat against Gandalf.
- The Balrog was so traumatized by the War of Wrath that he believed
the Valar would pick him off anytime he showed himself above ground.
- Sauron didn't trust the Balrog (who was, after all, not under his
control as the Nazgul were), so he was content to have Moria firmly
held against his enemies.
Why did the Balrog attack the Comany? After Ganalf's warning, he must
have known he was running a great risk in doing so, and he did stop to
consider what Gandalf had said. He either did this to get the Ring or he
did it to preserve his secrecy (or maybe because he was just plain evil,
and stupid :-). I don't think the Ring theory is very likely, because he
probably never had experienced a Great Ring before (the one the house of
Durin had was saved). IMHO, the secrecy theory fits the facts better; the
Balrog may have weighed his chances of getting killed by Gandalf against
the chances of letting the Company go and having his secrecy blown. If
you've spent many thousand years hiding from the Valar and meet one of
their emissaries...
Finally, what would have happened had the Balrog gotten the Ring?
My guess is that he would have tried to keep it from Sauron, very likely
successfully, against the chain of command if any did indeed exist
(very much like Saruman tried to do).
Comments?
--
Thomas Koenig, Thomas...@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig...@dkauni2.bitnet.
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double
logarithmic diagram.
Michael Martinez
>I've been wondering what the relationship between the Balrog in Moria
>and Sauron was. I find very little information in LotR, but it's fun to
>speculate, and maybe somebody can shed some light on this from other
>sources.
[snip]
Believe it or not, they met through the Beorning Love Video Dating Service.
The Balrog's video transcript is still extant, and I just happen to have a
copy:
Hi, I'm a Balrog, one of the last of my kind. I'm looking for a deep, dark,
handsome but somewhat devilish kind of Dark Lord type, if any still exist.
My hobbies include rooting around the nether regions of the Earth, reminiscing
about the old wars, and hunting Dwarves which stray into my back yard.
I have a few pets I keep. I just love Morgie's old many-tentacled monsters!
I enjoy long walks in the dark, causing tremors in the mountains, and killing
anything (any LESSER thing) which gets in my way.
I like being dominated by a stronger power, and I'd do just about anything to
hang around a rising evil or Middle-earth's next overlord.
So, there you have me. If you like what you see, just let GretaBeorn know and
she'll help us get together.
Toodles!
[Flaming Balrog kiss bursts toward the camera]
--
\\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy in...@xenite.org
\\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/
//\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/
// \\ENITE.org....................................................
Greg Hearn
depths of moria, but instead he came up and attacked the company, my guess
is that he was under sorons comand, as Sauron was morgoths cloesest man, the
balrog was more than likely in moria in order to comand tha attacks from
there. i have always wondered what would have happened if any of saurons
servents got the ring, i dont think many of them would have givein it to
him, but maybe he could have taken it from evan the balrog, he was as far
as i can tell far more powerful.
<Thomas...@cologne.de> wrote in message
news:8bbfv5$b98$1...@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de...
> I've been wondering what the relationship between the Balrog in Moria
> and Sauron was. I find very little information in LotR, but it's fun to
> speculate, and maybe somebody can shed some light on this from other
> sources.
>
David Sulger
>Balrog appears to have been remarkably
>passive after wiping out the Dwarven
>settlement at Moria. He doesn't even
>make an appearance at the battle of
>Azanulbizar, where he certainly could
>have made a difference.
Oh, he was there all right:
>Right before the doors he [Dain] caught
>Azog, and there he slew him and hewed
>off his head...it is said that when he
>came down from the Gate he looked
>grey in the face, as one who has felt
>great fear..."I have looked through the
>shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow
>it waits for you still: Durin's Bane."
Appendix A III, LotR
The Balrog was there, perhaps the whole time, watching the battle,
probably directing it. Obviously, as a general of sorts, it was most
likely content to let the orcs to all the fighting and dying for him. I
think all it was concerned about was keeping Moria for itself; had the
dwarves tried to enter Khazad-dum, it's likely the Balrog would have
wiped them out.
--Dave
Conrad Dunkerson
news:8bbfv5$b98$1...@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de...
> The Balrog appears to have been remarkably passive after wiping
> out the Dwarven settlement at Moria. He doesn't even make an
> appearance at the battle of Azanulbizar, where he certainly could
> have made a difference.
Doesn't it?
"Up the steps after him leaped a Dwarf with a red axe. It was Dain
Ironfoot, Nain's son. Right before the doors he caught Azog, and
there slew him, and hewed off his head. That was held a great
feat, for Dain was then only a stripling in the reckoning of the
Dwarves. But long life and many battles lay before him, until old
but unbowed he fell at last in the War of the Ring. Yet hardy and
full of wrath as he was, it is said that when he came down from the
Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear.
... Then Thrain turned to Dain, and said: 'But surely my own kin
will not desert me?' 'No,' said Dain. 'You are the father of our
Folk, and we have bled for you, and will again. But we will not
enter Khazad-dum. Only I have looked though the shadow of the
Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The
world must change and some other power than ours must come before
Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'"
RotK, Appendix A
[Heh, extra text quoted just because I'm a big fan of Dain] :)
> Finally, what would have happened had the Balrog gotten the Ring?
> My guess is that he would have tried to keep it from Sauron, very
> likely successfully, against the chain of command if any did
> indeed exist (very much like Saruman tried to do).
Similar to my view. I suspect that the Balrog still considered
itself a follower of MORGOTH, just as Sauron apparently did in the
early Second Age. As time went by Sauron became more self serving
and sought to be overlord in his own right (presumably to the
extent that he would have attempted to destroy Morgoth if the other
returned). If the Balrog got hold of the Ring it would presumably
have followed a similar path. At the time the company encountered
it I would guess that it had an alliance of sorts with Sauron, but
probably did not consider itself under his command.
Mithrigil
>Believe it or not, they met through the Beorning Love Video Dating Service.
You have the Balrog's, and I have Sauron's...(My left-brained Grandma gave it
to me...)
------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, ladies! I'll never let you say my REAL name, just call me Annatar-
'cause I can give you anything- provided you give some back!
I want a lady of a higher race, preferrably Maiar, who enjoys carnage,
destruction, and doesn't mind having a "pet" wolf. If you wan't a lord who
specializes in deception, I'm your maia.
You wan't me to wear the leggings in the relationship? Ask any Noldo, if you
can Find one! (evil laugh!)
If any of you are remnants of the elder days, and just hanging around, give me
a call, baby, and you'll see just what a man with 9 fingers can do for you!
---------------------------------------------------------
One word from me- AI!!!
-*Mithrigil*
Russ
Thomas...@cologne.de writes:
Nice to see a well-thought out on-topic message here.
<snip>
>The Balrog appears to have been remarkably passive after wiping out the
>Dwarven settlement at Moria. He doesn't even make an appearance at the
>battle of Azanulbizar, where he certainly could have made a difference.
There is implication that he was hovering (if he was winged, that is <g>) right
inside the doors; however, you are correct that he did not make his presence
felt on the battlefield where he surely might have turned the battle.
>With hindsight, Azog's boasts to Nar after having killed Thror seem to be
>designed to make everybody believe that an Orc did indeed rule Moria and
>take attention away from the fact that a Balrog was there. The secrecy
>worked very well; even Gandalf was not aware of the Balrog's existence.
>
>The dwarves believed they had woken Durin's bane from sleep by minig.
>OTOH, the timing coincidence between the Nazguls' move to Mordor and the
>Balrog's appearance (both 1980 TA) seems to suggest coordinated action,
>or maybe this was simply a year in which a lot of evil went on, and this
>helped to wake the Balrog.
Sauron may have sent an evil "vibe" out into the world that woke up all sorts
of things. Similar things happened later in the barrow downs where it was said
that the near presence of the Nazgul awakened the barrow wights.
>The Orcs from Moria cooperated in the hunt for the Company with Orcs from
>Mordor and Isengard. I find it hard to believe that Sauron didn't learn
>of the Balrog's existence from earlier encounters with Orcs from Moria,
>and I also find it hard to believe that they didn't establish at least
>some sort of contact.
He must have known of the Balrog and I put him (?) in the same class as Shelob
and Smaug. A creature of great evil and power that Sauron was hopinh to take
advantage of in his quest for power but did not directly control.
>So... what does this tell us about Balrog-Sauron relationships? I see
>several possiblities, not necessarily exclusive:
>
>- Sauron kept the Balrog in strategic reserve, to be used against
> Lorien as a surprise weapon at time of war. This failed, because the
> Balrog died in combat against Gandalf.
As above, I don't think Sauron exercised that type of direct control.
>- The Balrog was so traumatized by the War of Wrath that he believed
> the Valar would pick him off anytime he showed himself above ground.
Possibly, but not likely.
>- Sauron didn't trust the Balrog (who was, after all, not under his
> control as the Nazgul were), so he was content to have Moria firmly
> held against his enemies.
This is pretty close to my take on the issue.
>Why did the Balrog attack the Comany? After Ganalf's warning, he must
>have known he was running a great risk in doing so, and he did stop to
>consider what Gandalf had said.
Let's go even further. The balrog KNEW Gandalf. They were Ainur, there
together singing the Great Song with Iluvatar.
> He either did this to get the Ring
I don't think so because as below, I don't think the balrog could sense the
Ring that way.
> or he
>did it to preserve his secrecy (or maybe because he was just plain evil,
>and stupid :-). I don't think the Ring theory is very likely, because he
>probably never had experienced a Great Ring before (the one the house of
>Durin had was saved).
Well, I doubt he could sense it. Gandalf could not sense it, why could a
Balrog?
> IMHO, the secrecy theory fits the facts better; the
>Balrog may have weighed his chances of getting killed by Gandalf against
>the chances of letting the Company go and having his secrecy blown. If
>you've spent many thousand years hiding from the Valar and meet one of
>their emissaries...
Remember that Gandalf travelled through Moria before and was not confronted by
the balrog.
>Finally, what would have happened had the Balrog gotten the Ring?
>My guess is that he would have tried to keep it from Sauron, very likely
>successfully, against the chain of command if any did indeed exist
>(very much like Saruman tried to do).
Agreed.
Russ
PaulB
>So... what does this tell us about Balrog-Sauron relationships? I see
>several possiblities, not necessarily exclusive:
>
>- Sauron kept the Balrog in strategic reserve, to be used against
> Lorien as a surprise weapon at time of war. This failed, because the
> Balrog died in combat against Gandalf.
>
>- The Balrog was so traumatized by the War of Wrath that he believed
> the Valar would pick him off anytime he showed himself above ground.
>
>- Sauron didn't trust the Balrog (who was, after all, not under his
> control as the Nazgul were), so he was content to have Moria firmly
> held against his enemies.
>
>Why did the Balrog attack the Comany? After Ganalf's warning, he must
>have known he was running a great risk in doing so, and he did stop to
>consider what Gandalf had said. He either did this to get the Ring or he
>did it to preserve his secrecy (or maybe because he was just plain evil,
>and stupid :-). I don't think the Ring theory is very likely, because he
>probably never had experienced a Great Ring before (the one the house of
>Durin had was saved). IMHO, the secrecy theory fits the facts better; the
>Balrog may have weighed his chances of getting killed by Gandalf against
>the chances of letting the Company go and having his secrecy blown. If
>you've spent many thousand years hiding from the Valar and meet one of
>their emissaries...
>
>
>snip<
My view has always been that the Balrog was much like the Japanese soldiers who
had no idea the war was over. The war came about, the earth was upheaved, the
Balrog was entombed by falling rock. When the Dwarves uncovered him he just
kept on fighting. (and who's gonna talk down an enraged balrog who spent a
good portion of his life entombed? Not me. That sucker would be pissed on
principle for a long time.)
Did he have a strategic relationship with Sauron. Probably not. Somewhere
there is a statement that there were many evil things not of Saurons devising
and, I choose to read in to that, not in his control either. Obviously a Maia
was not of Saurons devising, but I think that Sauron did not need control of
the Balrog for it to serve his purposes. A good role for that type of being
would be to protect the only known source of mithril, so that when the war
comes the enemy doesn't have superior armour. Of course, since the Balrog
isn't in Sauron's control, he doesn't get the mithril either, but sauce for the
goose.....
Maybe the orcs were used to unwittingly contain the Balrog. If the Balrog had
gotten loose, there might have been a challenge between the two evil Maiar for
who gets to rule the roost. I think Sauron would have won but why would he let
his minions even know there might be a choice if he could prevent any desention
in the ranks?
As to the timing of Durin's Bane being uncovered, I choose to believe that even
in a created world there are some things that are coincidence, at least
internally, even if the date was chosen by Tolkien to make people go "hmmmm?",
and I might even think it was a small detail that passed him by, so that it is
coincidence externally as well.
Just my (very speculative) 2¢
PB
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that
die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal
out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT
Robert S. Coren
<Thomas...@cologne.de> wrote:
>
>The dwarves believed they had woken Durin's bane from sleep by minig.
>OTOH, the timing coincidence between the Nazguls' move to Mordor and the
>Balrog's appearance (both 1980 TA) seems to suggest coordinated action,
>or maybe this was simply a year in which a lot of evil went on, and this
>helped to wake the Balrog.
Tolkien makes an explicit reference to this "coincidence" in RotK
Appendix A, Section III ("Durin's Folk"):
The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in
the world... The Dwarves delved deep at that time...Thus they woke
from sleep[2] a thing of terror...: a Balrog of Morgoth.
[2] Or released it from prison; it may well be that it had already
been awakened by the malice of Sauron.
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"People in small towns have beliefs the way caves have bats."
--Ursula LeGuin, _Always Coming Home_
Michael Martinez
>Martinez>
>>Believe it or not, they met through the Beorning Love Video Dating Service.
>
>You have the Balrog's, and I have Sauron's...(My left-brained Grandma gave it
>to me...)
[snip]
You know that first date had to be a hot one. And I guess after a few
centuries they had moved on from each other and simply become "old flames".
Claude Martins
Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>In article <20000322235140...@ng-fc1.aol.com>, erk...@aol.com (Mithrigil ) wrote:
>>Martinez>
>>>Believe it or not, they met through the Beorning Love Video Dating Service.
>>
>>You have the Balrog's, and I have Sauron's...(My left-brained Grandma gave it
>>to me...)
>
>[snip]
>
>You know that first date had to be a hot one. And I guess after a few
>centuries they had moved on from each other and simply become "old flames".
Old Balrogs never die... their wings just fade away.
- Claude.
--
--
Claude Martins / Timberwolf / ICQ: 5304950 / York U, Toronto, ON, CA
mar...@cs.yorku.ca / The Wolf Lair http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~martins/
NOTE : I do NOT use RemarQ's Usenet services due to their ad policy.
Jonathan White
"Russ" <mcr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000322235734...@nso-ch.aol.com...
>
> Nice to see a well-thought out on-topic message here.
A sentiment I agree with!
(snip stuff about the battle at the gates of moria which I agree with)
>
> >The dwarves believed they had woken Durin's bane from sleep by minig.
> >OTOH, the timing coincidence between the Nazguls' move to Mordor and the
> >Balrog's appearance (both 1980 TA) seems to suggest coordinated action,
> >or maybe this was simply a year in which a lot of evil went on, and this
> >helped to wake the Balrog.
>
> Sauron may have sent an evil "vibe" out into the world that woke up all
sorts
> of things. Similar things happened later in the barrow downs where it was
said
> that the near presence of the Nazgul awakened the barrow wights.
I *think* there's a passage where Gandalf, or perhaps Elrond suggests that
as Sauron arises and grows in power, all the evil things in the world will
also grow in power, which agrees with your point below about Shelob and
Smaug.
> He must have known of the Balrog and I put him (?) in the same class as
Shelob
> and Smaug. A creature of great evil and power that Sauron was hopinh to
take
> advantage of in his quest for power but did not directly control.
Agreed, as far as it goes. Considering though that Sauron was pretty much
Morgoth's second in command. I'd agree that, at this stage in proceedings
the Balrog wasn't directly taking orders from Sauron, but make no mistake,
Sauron could have kicked the Balrog all the way out of Arda if it had come
to a direct fight, at least as I see it.
Give the Balrog the wing (whoops, freudian slip - I meant RING of course)
and things might be different.
Jon
Jonathan White
"Michael Martinez" <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote in message
news:8bdl5r$rg_...@news.uswest.net...
>
> You know that first date had to be a hot one. And I guess after a few
> centuries they had moved on from each other and simply become "old
flames".
And people say you have no sense of humour Michael!
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>I've been wondering what the relationship between the Balrog in Moria
>and Sauron was.
Ex-lovers?
Suitors rejected by the same she-troll?
Sauron was the Balrog's stockbroker?
They were both sixteenth cousins of Shelob?
Oh, sorry -- I was thinking about _Bored_ of the Rings. :-)
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
Tolkien FAQs:
http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen)
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/rec.arts.books.tolkien/ (Loos)
more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm
Tamim Khawaja
Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
>...As time went by Sauron became more self serving
> and sought to be overlord in his own right (presumably to the
> extent that he would have attempted to destroy Morgoth if the other
> returned)...
Sauron was never that stupid, he surrendered to Ar-Pharazon and to
Eonwe. He was a coward and would not have risen against Melkor,
once the greatest of ainur. He would have liked Melkor's wounded
foot, given him the ring and prayed for forgiveness. Or then he could
have just ran away and asked for pardon from Valar, because he knew that
the valar might have forgiven him after few ages.
Tamim Khawaja
Russ wrote:
> > or he
> >did it to preserve his secrecy (or maybe because he was just plain evil,
> >and stupid :-). I don't think the Ring theory is very likely, because he
> >probably never had experienced a Great Ring before (the one the house of
> >Durin had was saved).
>
> Well, I doubt he could sense it. Gandalf could not sense it, why could a
> Balrog?
Because Gandalf was a Naive follower of the big wimp Manwe whereas the
balrog had served under
the great Melkor and had a sense for evil artefacts like the ring.
Gandalf had only sense
for hobbits and other insignificant beings.
PaulB
<tamin....@helsinki.fi> writes:
>Gandalf had only sense
>for hobbits and other insignificant beings.
>
>
Oh yeah?!?! How insignificant can they be when one of them brought down Sauron
the Mighty? Huh? Huh? ;-)
Tamim Khawaja
PaulB wrote:
>
> In article <38DBCD86...@helsinki.fi>, Tamim Khawaja
> <tamin....@helsinki.fi> writes:
>
> >Gandalf had only sense
> >for hobbits and other insignificant beings.
> >
> >
> Oh yeah?!?! How insignificant can they be when one of them brought down Sauron
> the Mighty? Huh? Huh? ;-)
Frodo brought him down because he was insignificant before he
he threw the ring to the Orodruin
PaulB
<tamin....@helsinki.fi> writes:
Strength in humility!!
Conrad Dunkerson
news:38DBCBDE...@helsinki.fi...
> Sauron was never that stupid, he surrendered to Ar-Pharazon and
> to Eonwe. He was a coward and would not have risen against
> Melkor, once the greatest of ainur. He would have liked Melkor's
> wounded foot, given him the ring and prayed for forgiveness.
Except that JRRT tells us that by that time Sauron was more
powerful than Morgoth had been in his diminished state. The
implication is that a direct confrontation between Sauron with the
Ring and Morgoth as he was at the end of the First Age would leave
Sauron the clear victor. In such a case, why would Sauron bend his
knee to someone he could defeat?
Tamim Khawaja
Maybe if they duelled, but what if all the servants of Sauron and even
the other evil powers (dragons the Balrog),who didn't regard Sauron
worthy enough to be their master, would have allied with Morgoth.
Anyway I asked in another thread about Dagor Dagorath. I don't know what
happened in it but what is the point in Dagor Dagorath if Morgoth is
weaker than Sauron when and if he comes back (maybe the coming back
gives him more power). A being less in power than any Maia fighting
against all the powers: not a worthy end to Tolkiens saga.
Conrad Dunkerson
> Maybe if they duelled, but what if all the servants of Sauron and
> even the other evil powers (dragons the Balrog),who didn't regard
> Sauron worthy enough to be their master, would have allied with
> Morgoth.
Possibly. Don't know how that would have gone. Generally speaking
though I'd think that if Sauron had triumphed he would have fought
tooth and nail against a return of Morgoth... and with the Ring he
could probably have commanded most of the 'evil forces'.
> I don't know what happened in it but what is the point in Dagor
> Dagorath if Morgoth is weaker than Sauron when and if he comes
> back (maybe the coming back gives him more power). A being less
> in power than any Maia fighting against all the powers: not a
> worthy end to Tolkiens saga.
No, the concept is that at a very distant age when the powers of
the Valar have grown weak Morgoth is somehow able to regain much of
the power he had sent out into controlling Arda and breaks back
into the world with considerable strength. How much isn't entirely
clear, but apparently more than any one of the Valar at that point.
Jussi Jaatinen
> Except that JRRT tells us that by that time Sauron was more
> powerful than Morgoth had been in his diminished state. The
> implication is that a direct confrontation between Sauron with the
> Ring and Morgoth as he was at the end of the First Age would leave
> Sauron the clear victor. In such a case, why would Sauron bend his
> knee to someone he could defeat?
JRRT also wrote that Sauron served Morgoth genuinely and did not seek
mastery over him.
Morgoth, even if he was "weaker" still commanded enormous charisma and
willpower.
-JJ
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>No, the concept is that at a very distant age when the powers of
>the Valar have grown weak Morgoth is somehow able to regain much of
>the power he had sent out into controlling Arda and breaks back
>into the world with considerable strength. How much isn't entirely
>clear, but apparently more than any one of the Valar at that point.
Where can we read about the Dagor Dagorath and the events leading
up to it? Is that tied up with the "final prophecy of Mandos", or
am I thinking of something else?
--
Stan Brown, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/
Q: What would have happened if the dinosaurs hadn't died out?
A: I expect they'd still be around.
-- Steven Jay Gould, interviewed by Wim Kayzer in /A Glorious Accident/
Dave Lind
Stan Brown <bra...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.134828505...@news.mindspring.com...
> Said conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> >No, the concept is that at a very distant age when the powers of
> >the Valar have grown weak Morgoth is somehow able to regain much of
> >the power he had sent out into controlling Arda and breaks back
> >into the world with considerable strength. How much isn't entirely
> >clear, but apparently more than any one of the Valar at that point.
>
> Where can we read about the Dagor Dagorath and the events leading
> up to it? Is that tied up with the "final prophecy of Mandos", or
> am I thinking of something else?
I only know of one reference specifically to _Dagor Dagorath_.
Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor
Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns.
_Unfinished Tales_, Part Four, section II
It does refer to the Second Prophecy that was removed from the Quenta and
presumably rejected by Tolkien.
Dave
Tamim Khawaja
Stan Brown wrote:
>
>
> Where can we read about the Dagor Dagorath and the events leading
> up to it? Is that tied up with the "final prophecy of Mandos", or
> am I thinking of something else?
>
Yes where can we?
buh...@ecn.ab.ca
handy. it does mention retrieval of the silmarils, and turin killing
melkor, if i recall correctly. if i recall incorrectly, it presumably
mentions something else.
ajb
Dave Lind (dav...@ameritech.net) wrote:
: I only know of one reference specifically to _Dagor Dagorath_.
: Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor
: Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns.
: _Unfinished Tales_, Part Four, section II
: It does refer to the Second Prophecy that was removed from the Quenta and
: presumably rejected by Tolkien.
: Dave
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Buhr buh...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Savour the Irony! bu...@infinity.gmcc.ab.ca
http://freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~buhrger
David Sulger
>From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part
>II, Chapter VI "Quenta Silmarillion",
>section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs
>31-32
[snipped account of Dagor Dagorath]
It seems to me sort of like a ME version of Ragnarok: a final battle at
the end of time which destroys the old world, and from which a new world
is born. Though of course there are elements in the story which seem to
derive from sources other than Norse mythology.
--Dave
Robert S. Coren
>Dave Lind (dav...@ameritech.net) wrote:
>: I only know of one reference specifically to _Dagor Dagorath_.
>...
>: It does refer to the Second Prophecy that was removed from the Quenta and
>: presumably rejected by Tolkien.
>there's a little bit more about it in HoME 5, but i don't have the books
>handy.
From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part II, Chapter VI "Quenta
Silmarillion", section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs 31-32
(pp. 367-368 in the Ballantine/Del Rey paperback edition):
Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in
Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the
Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary,
then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back
through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void, and he shall
destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendel shall descend upon him as a
white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the
Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas
shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë,
and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls
of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his
death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men
be avenged.
Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils
shall be recovered out of Earth and Air and Sea; for Eärendel shall
descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then
Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna
Palúrien, and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the
Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of
Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all
the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the
Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be
fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of
Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to
him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.
--
---Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)-------
"You ain't seen from animus." --Ken Rudolph
Mark Wells
<conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>No, the concept is that at a very distant age when the powers of
>the Valar have grown weak Morgoth is somehow able to regain much of
>the power he had sent out into controlling Arda and breaks back
>into the world with considerable strength. How much isn't entirely
>clear, but apparently more than any one of the Valar at that point.
Or, in any case, Morgoth has regained much of his power. IIRC the
different versions of the story aren't clear on whether the Valar get
weak, or lazy, or what. Morgoth comes back in and takes them by
surprise and destroys the Sun and Moon. He's obviously more powerful
than he was in the First Age because he was _afraid_ of Arien in the
First Age.
Michael Martinez
>From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part II, Chapter VI "Quenta
>Silmarillion", section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs 31-32
>(pp. 367-368 in the Ballantine/Del Rey paperback edition):
[snip]
Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF
THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
Robert S. Coren
Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>In article <8bmau5$518$1...@newsie2.cent.net>, co...@spdcc.net wrote:
>>From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part II, Chapter VI "Quenta
>>Silmarillion", section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs 31-32
>>(pp. 367-368 in the Ballantine/Del Rey paperback edition):
>
>[snip]
>
>Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF
>THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
Well, somebody asked about it, so I was responding. "Nothing to do
with" is a little strong, it seems to me. Since the characters
referred to are all important actors in _The Silmarillion_, there
seems like a pretty clear connection. To some of us, it's not entirely
without interest to know how Tolkien at one time envisioned the end of
his created world, even if he later abandoned this conception.
Nobody's requiring you to discuss it, or even read about it, if you'd
rather not.
--
---Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)-------
"...and in the Eighth Square we shall be Queens together, and it's all
feasting and fun!" --Lewis Carroll, _Through the Looking Glass_
Flame of the West
> >From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part II, Chapter VI "Quenta
> >Silmarillion", section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs 31-32
>
> Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF
> THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the
SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at all.
--
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth.
Flame of the West
> >Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF
> >THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
>
> Well, somebody asked about it, so I was responding.
I appreciate your citation, it helped me find the relevant
section of HoME. It certainly was more helpful than MM's
advice to "go find it on Deja.com."
>"Nothing to do
> with" is a little strong, it seems to me. Since the characters
> referred to are all important actors in _The Silmarillion_, there
> seems like a pretty clear connection.
Indeed, one could make the case that the Dagor Dagorath is
as canonical as parts of the Silmarillion itself. We know that
JRRT had already resolved to change parts of Silm.
OK, Steuard: does the canonicity of a passage depend on
how late in life JRRT rejected it? (Assuming that no
replacement passage was written.)
> To some of us, it's not entirely
> without interest to know how Tolkien at one time envisioned the end of
> his created world, even if he later abandoned this conception.
I wonder how much money MM spent on HoME before he decided
it was all irrelevant to the "real" Middle-Earth.
Dave Lind
Flame of the West <jsol...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:38DFE67D...@erols.com...
> "Robert S. Coren" wrote:
>
> > >Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT, THE
LORD OF
> > >THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
> >
> > Well, somebody asked about it, so I was responding.
>
> I appreciate your citation, it helped me find the relevant
> section of HoME. It certainly was more helpful than MM's
> advice to "go find it on Deja.com."
>
> >"Nothing to do
> > with" is a little strong, it seems to me. Since the characters
> > referred to are all important actors in _The Silmarillion_, there
> > seems like a pretty clear connection.
>
> Indeed, one could make the case that the Dagor Dagorath is
> as canonical as parts of the Silmarillion itself. We know that
> JRRT had already resolved to change parts of Silm.
The Second Prophecy of Mandos was excised from the _Quenta Silmarillion_,
but as usual it not as black and white as MM wants to portray it. It turned
up many years later in the essay "The Problem of Ros". There essentially the
same prophecy is made but instead of being attributed to Mandos it is put
into the mouth of Andreth the Wise-woman.
It could be argued that even here the prophecy was rejected. The main
linguistic premise of the essay was in error and the whole argument
collapsed on a overlooked piece of evidence. But ideas long suppressed had a
way of turning up again and it is conceivable that Tolkien never abandoned
the image of Turin Turambar returning at the End.
Dave
Flame of the West
> For example, there are indications that Tolkien planned to rewrite the
> Silmarillion and the entire history of Middle-earth to be consistent
> with modern astronomy from the start.
<snip>
>we also
> know that he had considered this idea once before, and that he had
> gone so far as to rewrite much of the story before going back and
> deciding that the more mythological approach was better.
I hadn't known that. Seems like JRRT struggled throughout his
career with two incompatible desires: (1) something moving
and resonant of the Nordic myths, and (2) something believable
(i.e. requiring minimal suspension of belief) to the modern
educated Christian. He seemed to veer back and forth a few times.
I suspect you're right that, even if he got far into his "myths
transformed" project, he might have abandoned it yet again.
And it's not like he did a bad job with his "mythical" Silmarillon.
The Ainulindalë and Valaquenta serve superbly as a bridge
between Christian monotheism and the pantheons of pagan
gods and goddesses. And the removal of Aman from the world
and its being made round in the Akallabêth is an elegant way
of getting from the "magical" world of the Elder Days to our
own round, mortal world.
I really can't imagine an "astronomically correct" Silmarillion
being anywhere near as the mythological one we possess.
And where would it end? What if JRRT became an evolutionist
in later life and wanted the Silm. to be "biologically correct"?
Would the Elves have been descended from immortal monkeys?
:-)
Flame of the West
> That may be the only one using those specific words, but there are
> certainly several others covering the same events the term Dagor
> Dagorath refers to. I also don't believe there is any indication
> that these ideas were 'rejected' or belonged only to early versions
> of the mythology. Let's see what I can dig up;
<snip>
> There are many other references, but I think these show that it
> was a long-lived concept. Nor is there any indication that it was
> abandoned thereafter - though Tolkien began considering drastic
> changes to the mythology in the last two decades of his life. The
> Second Prophecy of Mandos and Turin's part in it endured through at
> least 25 (1926 - 1950) years, specifically the same years in which
> The Hobbit and LotR were being written.
Thanx! Like Steuard, I had been under the impression that JRRT
rejected the idea of a Last Battle. Instead, it seems he merely
decided it didn't belong in the Quenta Silmarillion.
It makes sense that the Middle-Earth mythology should include
a Last Battle, since that is an important element of Nordic myth.
Conrad Dunkerson
news:5VuD4.121$nS6....@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net...
> Stan Brown <bra...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.134828505...@news.mindspring.com...
>> Where can we read about the Dagor Dagorath and the events
>> leading up to it? Is that tied up with the "final prophecy of
>> Mandos", or am I thinking of something else?
> I only know of one reference specifically to _Dagor Dagorath_.
> Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor
> Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns.
> _Unfinished Tales_, Part Four, section II
That may be the only one using those specific words, but there are
certainly several others covering the same events the term Dagor
Dagorath refers to. I also don't believe there is any indication
that these ideas were 'rejected' or belonged only to early versions
of the mythology. Let's see what I can dig up;
"When the world is much older, and the Gods weary, Morgoth will
come back through the Door, and the last battle of all will be
fought. Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the
spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his
black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Hurin shall
be avenged.
In those days the Silmarils shall be recovered from sea and earth
and air, and Maidros shall break them and Belaurin with their fire
rekindle the Two Trees, and the great light shall come forth again,
and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled so that it goes out
over the world, and the Gods and Elves and Men shall grow young
again, and all their dead awake."
SoME, Earliest Silmarillion ~1926
"Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the
judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the
Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then
Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and
he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him
as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle
be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive
with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin
Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black
sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so
shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and
air; for Earendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had
in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna
Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two
Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor
shall be levelled, so that the light goes out over all the world. In
that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all
their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning
them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin
only, and him it names among the Gods."
SoME, The Quenta ~1930
Text very similar to the above from Quenta Silmarillion ~1937 given
in LROW was quoted previously.
"The greatest of these was Menelmakar, the Swordsman of the Sky.
This, it is said, was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come
into the world, and a foreshadowing of the Last Battle that shall
be at the end of Days."
MR, Annals of Aman 1000-1050 ~1950
Steuard Jensen
> "Robert S. Coren" wrote:
Michael wrote:
> > >Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT,
> > >THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
[Interesting side note: If Michael's participation here continues to
plummet as it has been recently, I'm going to have to actually start
including his last name in these attributions! The fact that Michael
O'Neill has been contributing a lot of on-topic material only makes
the ambiguity worse.]
> >"Nothing to do with" is a little strong, it seems to me. Since the
> >characters referred to are all important actors in _The
> >Silmarillion_, there seems like a pretty clear connection.
Michael does tend to use very strong language to separate early
(pre-LotR) work on the Silmarillion from later (and "more canonical")
work. I don't tend to draw _quite_ so sharp a distinction as he does,
but I do give far greater "canonical" weight to later material than to
earlier material. This is particularly true when it seems to me that
the "tone" of a story differs considerably from that of the later
works (to touch on the current thread about giants in _The Hobbit_).
For example, stories in which the Maiar are treated as children of the
Valar just don't seem to fit with the later mythology, even when they
don't directly contradict it. Naturally, this sort of thing is very
qualitative, and it's the main reason that everyone ends up coming up
with their own scheme for the details of how much weight they want to
give each text.
> OK, Steuard: does the canonicity of a passage depend on
> how late in life JRRT rejected it? (Assuming that no
> replacement passage was written.)
An intresting question. My first comment is that if Tolkien
explicitly rejected a particular idea, then my "trust" for it
invariably goes down a notch or two. On the other hand, I tend to
take his later apparent rejections with a grain of salt, particularly
wen they would involve massive changes to the rest of the
legendarium.
For example, there are indications that Tolkien planned to rewrite the
Silmarillion and the entire history of Middle-earth to be consistent
with modern astronomy from the start. We _could_ take this as
evidence tat we should immediately abandon everything in, oh, the
first quarter of the Silmarillion at least, as completely
non-canonical. However (aren't you glad there's a "however?), we also
know that he had considered this idea once before, and that he had
gone so far as to rewrite much of the story before going back and
deciding that the more mythological approach was better.
Now, we don't know how spectacular a new, astronomy-friendly
Silmarillion creation story would have been if Tolkien had lived
another decade or two to write it. It might have been fantastic. But
then again, he might have pursued the idea only to find once again
that too much of the beauty of his initial concept was lost in the
transition. We just don't know. Therefore, I tend to treat that
(very) late rejection as a significant "might have been", but not to
incorporate it into my main canonical notion of Middle-earth's
history. On some level, I make this choice because the other choice
simply isn't productive: I hardly know _anything_ about what a
completely rewritten Silmarillion would look like.
Thus, _my_ decisions on the "canonicity" of a particular rejection
_do_ depend on how late in life Tolkien made the rejection in
question, strange as that may seem. They also depend on how
significant the change would be to the greater mythology, and (yes,
I'll admit it, though I try to avoid it as much as possible) on how
appealing I find the change. (I justify this last to some extent by
the notion that if I feel that a change _seriously_ hurts the story,
Tolkien might have come to the same conclusion eventually himself.)
Naturally, others may come to different conclusions about how to pick
and choose in these cases.
Interestingly enough, there is evidence that none of this is actually
relevant to the qustion of Dagor Dagorath! I went into this reply
planning to explain that the notion of a "Final Battle" had been
rejected quite early on, and that we were justified in treating it the
same way we would treat the idea that the Maiar were children of the
Valar. Much to my surprise, the notion of a Last Battle seems to
appear in every single HoME book dealing with the Silmarillion
(specifically, I checked IV, V, X, XI, and XII; I know it's mentioned
in appropriate places in I and II, which are _really_ non-canonical in
just about every way).
As late as the essay "The Problem of _Ros_", written around 1968,
Tolkien wrote
Nor would [the tongue of the Folk of Haleth] be heard again, unless
the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that
Turin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before
he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the
Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the
death stroke.
This is different from many of the earlier sketches of the final
conflict, but it is clear that Tolkien still considered the notion to
have a place in Middle-earth, at least as a legendary prophecy (he
treats Andreth quite seriously elsewhere). Also, one of the notes
regarding theh Istari presented in _Unfinished Tales_ (but whose date
is unknown beyond "after the completion of" LotR) includes the
comment:
Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath,
and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns.
Comments about the Dagor Dagorath appear in the alliterative verse
that follows that note. At any rate, these citations make it quite
clear that Tolkien was still actively considering the Last Battle to
be a part of his legendarium until pretty much the end of his life.
In fact, it doesn't seem to me (upon this glance through the books, at
least) as if it was ever really gone, although the details seem to
have shifted over time quite a bit.
In this case, then, I figure I've got to accept it as a part of the
mythology with reasonably canonical status, at least as a prophecy to
be taken seriously (and I don't think it was ever treated as more).
Whether or not we think it will "really happen" depends on how much we
think we can trust prophecies about events in and after the Fourthh
Age: remember, Men supposedly have "freer will" than Elves on some
level or other, and once the Age of Men starts, even the Valar have at
best a hazy idea of what's coming down the pipe.
> I wonder how much money MM spent on HoME before he decided
> it was all irrelevant to the "real" Middle-Earth.
Now, now: I don't see the earlier material as canonical, but tat
doesn't mean that I don't enjoy reading the Lost Tales! Perhaps
unlike Michael, I do think that the earlier material is able to give
us an idea of Tolkien's thoughts on various aspects of Middle-earth,
at least when it doesn't directly contradict the later writings. So,
for example, I treat Tolkien's dragons as real living things, despite
their description as metallic constructs in "The Fall of Gondolin" in
BOLT II. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if the general
organizatin of Gondolin's army into various Houses remained reasonably
accurate later on even though he never wrote about it again, and I
really _want_ to believe the amazingly cool yet sorrowful sacrifice by
the folk of the Hammer of Wrath, and lots of other parts of the
battle.
The point is, whether you treat it as canonical or not, the earlier
stories can be wonderful, and I don't think that Michael would
consider it a waste at all.
Steuard Jensen
Steuard Jensen
> That may be the only one using those specific words, but there are
> certainly several others covering the same events the term Dagor
> Dagorath refers to. I also don't believe there is any indication
> that these ideas were 'rejected' or belonged only to early versions
> of the mythology.
Looks like you and I had similar ideas at a similar time. :) Your post
showed up right after I posted my own (in the "canonical" branch of
the thread). Fortunately, our posts appear to be complimentary rather
than repetitive, to a substantial degree: I quoted from _The Peoples
of Middle-earth_ and commented on references to the Last Battle in
HoMe X-XI. I don't think I mentioned it specifically, but in _The War
of the Jewels_, the section of "The Later _Quenta Silmarillion_"
dealing with the Dwarves comments that they believed they would help
Aule to rebuild the world after the Last Battle. I have the
impression that this section dates to the mid to late fifties, but I'm
not really sure about the chronology. At any rate, the idea seems to
have been quite persistent. Why is it that I've thought for so long
that it was dropped?
Steuard Jensen
Robert S. Coren
Dave Lind <dav...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>Flame of the West <jsol...@erols.com> wrote in message
>news:38DFE67D...@erols.com...
>>
>> as canonical as parts of the Silmarillion itself. We know that
>> JRRT had already resolved to change parts of Silm.
>
>The Second Prophecy of Mandos was excised from the _Quenta Silmarillion_,
>but as usual it not as black and white as MM wants to portray it. It turned
>up many years later in the essay "The Problem of Ros". There essentially the
>same prophecy is made but instead of being attributed to Mandos it is put
>into the mouth of Andreth the Wise-woman.
>
>It could be argued that even here the prophecy was rejected. The main
>linguistic premise of the essay was in error and the whole argument
>collapsed on a overlooked piece of evidence. But ideas long suppressed had a
>way of turning up again and it is conceivable that Tolkien never abandoned
>the image of Turin Turambar returning at the End.
I've been thinking some more about this. Christopher doesn't say much
about the Second Prophecy, which suggests that perhaps JRRT didn't
write much about it either. My current view is that CRT probably made
the right choice in omitting it from the published _Silmarillion_, but
also that the situation surrounding it is one of the murkiest in the
mythology.
I'm going to ramble on a bit. you have been warned.
In the "Valaquenta" section of _Morgoth's Ring_, CRT quotes the final
sentence of the Valaquenta, which he transposed to the end of the
_Silmarillion_ itself:
If it has passed from the high and beautiful to darkness and ruin,
that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall
come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know, but they
have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.
CRT notes: "The Second Prophecy of Mandos had now therefore
definitively disappeared." I know that when I first read this I
thought that was rather thin evidence on which to decide that
something as seemingly significant had "definitively disappeared". On
the other hand the statement that there is no word from Mandos (or
Manwë and Varda for that matter) about amending the "Marring" does
seem in direct contradiction to the Second Prophecy, with its
description of the final destruction of Morgoth and the rebirth of the
Trees.
Author's Note 7 to the Commentary on the _Athrabeth_ (p. 342 in the
Houghton Mifflin hardcover MR) has the rather odd statement that "the
myth that appears at the end of the _Silmarillion_ is of Númenórean
origin; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish
traditions." (CRT says in a footnote that "the myth" is the Second
Prophecy, and indeed it's hard to see what else it could be.) What is
odd about this is that Men should produce an "ending" myth that
specifically "does not speak of Men"; at the time he wrote it, it
seems pretty clear that the Prophecy was described from an Elvish
point of view. It would seem that by this time (the writing of the
_Athrabeth_) JRRT had decided that (as he says in the same note) the
Elves were concerned with history, not prophecy, and so this tradition
could not be Elvish. It would also seem that at this point he had not
decided to eliminate it altogether, or there would be no need to refer
to it at all.
Entering the realm of completely unsubstantiated speculation, I can
imagine that the relatively young JRRT who wrote the _Quenta
Silmarillion_ (or the even earlier _Quenta Noldorinwa_ where it first
appears) found the idea of a final stage of the world where evil was
driven out and its effects undone appealing. Then I can further
imagine that when he was older, and had lived through the horrors of
World War II, and saw the world that he had loved as a young man being
"marred" in various irreparable ways, he could have found the idea of
a universe with all taint of evil purged from it inconceivable, or at
least no longer consistent with the world he had created.
--
---Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)-------
"Never try to outstubborn a cat." -- R. A. Heinlein
Dave Lind
Robert S. Coren <co...@spdcc.com> wrote in message
news:8bpcvq$1d91$1...@newsie2.cent.net...
As Steuard Jensen pointed out in a previous post Tolkien considered revising
the origin-myth to bring it into accord with current science. In fact he
wrote a version the _Ainulindale_ that he called the "Round World Version"
which was followed later by the "Flat World Version" (the C* and D texts in
MORGOTH'S RING). The main difference in the Round World Version is, of
course, that the earth was spherical from its beginning and also the Sun and
Moon were already in the heavens, not the fruit and flower of the dying
Trees.
The problem to Tolkien's mind was that the Valar would KNOW the true nature
of the universe, since, after all, they made it. They would not therefore
teach the Elves the "absurd" (Tolkien's word, not mine) notions presented as
fact in the early parts of the Quenta Silm: the flat earth, the planets not
being made until the coming of the Elves, and above all Moon and Sun being
made AFTER the Earth itself.
After some trial essays he seem to have decided that he could not cut out
the absurd astronomical stuff without ruining its unique and elegant
symmetry. This is the point (the late 1950's) when his creative energy
abandoned him and he made no new efforts at rewriting the Legendarium to fix
this (as it seemed to him) major problem. That's not to say that he didn't
devote thought to it, he did, and he seem to have come across the only
acceptable solution, which is hinted at in the notes you have cited above,
but it was not incorporated into the texts.
The solution had its origin in _The Drowning of Anadune_ which was an
experiment at turning the Elvish history of _The Drowning of Numenor_ into
Manish legend. So why not turn the absurd stuff into human myths and
legends? The second star-making, the flat earth, the Moon and Sun and even
the Second Prophecy would become Manish stories. He does not however explain
how he would treat the inconsistencies between Elvish history with the myths
and legends of Men if _The Silm_ ever reached published form.
This adds a whole new dimension to the "cannon" question. Not only are there
early and late texts to consider, now it must be decided what in Arda is
TRUE and what is merely a truly reported (untrue) belief.
Oh, the wheels within wheels.
Dave
Michael Martinez
>In article <8bo5ng$1u0...@news.uswest.net>,
>Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>>>From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part II, Chapter VI "Quenta
>>>Silmarillion", section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs 31-32
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
>
>with" is a little strong, it seems to me. Since the characters
>referred to are all important actors in _The Silmarillion_, there
>seems like a pretty clear connection.
Same names, different characters. BIG difference.
>Nobody's requiring you to discuss it, or even read about it, if you'd
>rather not.
My, my, aren't YOU a little snippy?
Why didn't you bother to point out that Tolkien changed the whole prophecy
scenario for Turin, so that he was only going to come back at the end of the
First Age and help defeat Morgoth before dying a final time?
Michael Martinez
>"Robert S. Coren" wrote:
>
>> >Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF
>> >THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
>>
>> Well, somebody asked about it, so I was responding.
>
>section of HoME. It certainly was more helpful than MM's
>advice to "go find it on Deja.com."
You would have gotten the full context from Deja.Com, which you didn't get
from Mr. Coren's incomplete answer.
Michael Martinez
>Michael does tend to use very strong language to separate early
>(pre-LotR) work on the Silmarillion from later (and "more canonical")
>work.
For good reason. As long as people who should know better continue to blur
the distinctions, the chances that newcomers will pick up misunderstandings
are pretty high.
The fact is that the second prophecy of Mandos has no place in the world of
THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. The only connection
between it and that world is the fact that Tolkien intended to include a
revised prophecy (from Andreth, not Namo/Mandos) which would foretell Turin's
return at the end of the First Age for the final war against Morgoth, before
he would finally die for all Time.
There is nothing canonical about the Second Prophecy of Mandos with respect to
the three books named above.
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez wrote:
>
>> >From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part II, Chapter VI "Quenta
>> >Silmarillion", section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs 31-32
>>
>> THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
>
>SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at all.
Wrong. The Second Prophecy of Mandos comes from an earlier mythology.
Tolkien reused names each time he developed a new mythology.
We've been through this time and time again.
Michael Martinez
>Thanx! Like Steuard, I had been under the impression that JRRT
>rejected the idea of a Last Battle. Instead, it seems he merely
>decided it didn't belong in the Quenta Silmarillion.
<sigh>
Despite whatever nonsense Conrad may choose to post, J.R.R. Tolkien DID reject
the Second Prophecy of Mandos (and the Last Battle as conceived there). He
completely revised the mythology and produced a new world in which the Valar
are NOT gods, in which Morgoth's eventual return is NOT certain, in which
Turin does NOT come back at the end of Time, etc.
Eventually Tolkien began to go back to the Second Prophecy and he decided to
work it into the stories of the First Age, but not in any way like the earlier
mythology had it. Turin would return as a mortal man for the War of Wrath
against Morgoth (and perhaps only for the final assault on Angband), and then
he would die again, for good.
There is no "last battle" at the end of Time in the mythology represented by
THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
The last gasp of the "Last Battle" comes in "The Later Quenta Silmarillion" in
THE WAR OF THE JEWELS.
I take the following citation from the message I posted in December 1999 (and
which is archived on Deja.Com and is easily found at
http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=555495201&fmt=text ):
THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, pages 374-5:
$17 The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they
had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue
ne heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman
should prove true, that Turin in the Last Battle should return
from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World
for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon
the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.
[This remarkable saying has long roots, extending far back to
the prophecy at the end of the old TALE OF TURAMBAR (II.115-16),
where it was told that the Gods of Death (Fui and Vefantur)
would not open their doors to Turin and Nienori, that Urin and
Maywin (Hurin and Morwen) went to Mandos, and that their
prayers
came even to Manwe, and the Gods had mercy on their unhappy
fate, so that those twain Turin and Nienori entered into
Fos'Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi and her maidens
had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun,
and so were all their soorows and stains washed away, and
they dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now
the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but
Turambar shall indeed stand beside Fionwe in the Great Wrack,
and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil.
In the SKETCH OF THE MYTHOLOGY or 'earliest Silmarillion' of
the 1920s the prophecy with which it ends (IV.40) declares
that when Morgoth returns, and 'the last battle of all' is fought,
Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the
spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who
with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus shall the
children of Hurin be avenged.
The development of this in the QUENTA (IV.165) tells that in the
days of the last battle, on the fields of Valinor,
Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand
Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror
of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals
unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children
of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
And the final passage of the QUENTA, concerning the prophecy
of the recovery of the Two Trees, ends with the words (IBID.):
But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin
only, and him it names among the Gods.
These passages reappear in the revised conclusion of the QUENTA
that belongs with the QUENTA SILMARILLION of 1937 (see V.323-4,
333), with two changes: Turin in the Last Battle is said to be
'coming from the halls of Mandos', and in the final sentance
concerning the prophecy 'no Man it names, save Turin only,
and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.' In
the cursory corrections that my father made much later to this
conclusion (see XI. 245-7) he changed 'Turin...coming from the
halls of Mandos' to 'Turin...returning from the Doom of Men at
the ending of the world', and against the concluding passage
(including the reference to Turin as 'a son of the Valar') he
placed a large X.
Another reference is found in the ANNALS OF AMAN (X. 71, 76),
where it is said of the constellation Menelmakar (Orion) that
it 'was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the
world, and a foreshadowing of the Last Battle that shall be
at the end of Days.'
In this last appearance of the mysterious and fluctuating idea
the prophecy is put into the mouth of Andreth, the Wise-woman
of the House of Beor: Turin will 'return from the Dead' before
his final departure, and his last deed within the Circles of
the World will be the slaying of the Great Dragon, Ancalagon
the Black. Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end
of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term 'Last Battle'
is used shortly afterwards in this text, p.371); but in all
the early texts (the QUENTA, IV.160; the ANNALS OF BELERIAND,
IV.309, V.144; the QUENTA SILMARILLION, V.329) it was Earendil
who destroyed Ancalagon.]
Tamim Khawaja
Michael Martinez wrote:
>
> The fact is that the second prophecy of Mandos has no place in the world of
> THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. The only connection
> between it and that world is the fact that Tolkien intended to include a
> revised prophecy (from Andreth, not Namo/Mandos) which would foretell Turin's
> return at the end of the First Age for the final war against Morgoth, before
> he would finally die for all Time.
>
> There is nothing canonical about the Second Prophecy of Mandos with respect to
> the three books named above.
>
Doesn't silmarillion mention that something ( don't remember what) is
not told in the prophesies of Mandos. If it is in plural, as I recall,
there must also be the second prophesy of Mandos.
Robert S. Coren
Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>In article <8bolbl$13cc$1...@newsie2.cent.net>, co...@spdcc.net wrote:
>>In article <8bo5ng$1u0...@news.uswest.net>,
>>Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>with" is a little strong, it seems to me. Since the characters
>>referred to are all important actors in _The Silmarillion_, there
>>seems like a pretty clear connection.
>
>Same names, different characters. BIG difference.
<shrug>
>>Nobody's requiring you to discuss it, or even read about it, if you'd
>>rather not.
>
>My, my, aren't YOU a little snippy?
Perhaps I was mistaken, but I found it hard to read your "this has
nothing to do with" comment as other than "snippy". Similarly the
following, to which I'll suppress the snippy answer I was considering.
>Why didn't you bother to point out that Tolkien changed the whole prophecy
>scenario for Turin, so that he was only going to come back at the end of the
>First Age and help defeat Morgoth before dying a final time?
--
---Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)-------
Baba ganoosh ganache Ganesh!
Baba ganoosh ganache!
--culinary cheer for the elephant god
Conrad Dunkerson
> Thanx! Like Steuard, I had been under the impression that JRRT
> rejected the idea of a Last Battle.
That opinion has been posted from time to time, but I've never
seen any evidence to support it except a view that mention of
Ancalagon in certain versions of the 'last battle' moves the
event to the end of the First Age rather than the end of days. I
don't think the texts support this at all and instead take the
presence of Ancalagon as a name re-use or reincarnation of the
great dragon (if Morgoth and Turin can both come back from the dead
for the fight, why not Ancalagon?)
> Instead, it seems he merely decided it didn't belong in the
> Quenta Silmarillion.
Actually, it was in that one too.
Conrad Dunkerson
> The Second Prophecy of Mandos was excised from the _Quenta
> Silmarillion_, but as usual it not as black and white as MM wants
> to portray it.
Actually, it appears in the Quenta Silmarillion. Pages 324 and 333
of my HMCO hardcover Lost Road. I quoted the text in a message
yesterday.
In fact it appears in every major version of the Silmarillion...
only 'disappearing' from some of the very late fragments which did
not cover the full scope of events. Even then there are some small
references as has been noted in quotations to this thread.
Flame of the West
> >Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the
> >SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at all.
>
> Wrong. The Second Prophecy of Mandos comes from an earlier mythology.
> Tolkien reused names each time he developed a new mythology.
They were the same characters, with minor changes.
> We've been through this time and time again.
Not me. But your memory, like Elrond's, extends to the earliest
of days. I perceive that you are wearying of the world. I recommend
that you catch the next boat to Valinor.
Flame of the West
> <sigh>
Humor me. ;-)
> There is no "last battle" at the end of Time in the mythology represented by
> THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
I don't view those three books as representing a single coherent
mythology. In particular, the Silmarillion was a work in progress,
cobbled together (however brilliantly) by CJRT. It was just one of
many possible combinations of JRRT's writings.
I view the Hobbit and LotR as fully canonical, Silm. as less so, UT
even less, and HoME less still. But to group the Silm. with the
Hobbit and LotR is to give it a higher status than is warranted.
Conrad Dunkerson
> I view the Hobbit and LotR as fully canonical, Silm. as less so,
> UT even less, and HoME less still. But to group the Silm. with
> the Hobbit and LotR is to give it a higher status than is
> warranted.
Regardless, during the entire time that The Hobbit, The Lord of the
Rings and the primary source materials CT used in compliling the
published Silmarillion were being written the Second Prophecy of
Mandos was an integral part of the mythology and appeared in every
major version of it that JRRT wrote. The final battle and Turin's
defeat of Morgoth was very much a part of Tolkien's world while he
was creating TH and LotR - the dates for various quotations of this
material prove the concept was contemporaneous with those two
books.
After publication of LotR it continues to show up from time to
time. There are also two references which might be taken to mean
that it was abandoned late in JRRT's life or Turin's part in it
moved to the end of the First Age (CT suggests both things), but
neither is clearly spelled out as such and in fact I think JRRT may
have meant to continue the original concept. Even if such changes
WERE taken to be Tolkien's final intent (and again we get into the
issue of whether he'd have changed it back rather than rework the
mythology around the new concepts) these alterations themselves
would be to 'a different world' than that in TH and LotR. The new
references post-dated publication of those two books by many years
and properly belong to the 'Myths Transformed' time period which
is alternatively put forward as the height of 'CANON' or dismissed
out of hand. :)
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Doesn't silmarillion mention that something ( don't remember what) is
>not told in the prophesies of Mandos. If it is in plural, as I recall,
>there must also be the second prophesy of Mandos.
I don't think that follows. Mandos made many prophecies. The Second
one is so called probably because it's the second really big one,
affecting the fate of whole peoples.
--
Stan Brown, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/
Q: What would have happened if the dinosaurs hadn't died out?
A: I expect they'd still be around.
-- Steven Jay Gould, interviewed by Wim Kayzer in /A Glorious Accident/
Robert S. Coren
Conrad Dunkerson <con...@planet.net> wrote:
>
>After publication of LotR it continues to show up from time to
>time. There are also two references which might be taken to mean
>that it was abandoned late in JRRT's life or Turin's part in it
>moved to the end of the First Age (CT suggests both things), but
>neither is clearly spelled out as such and in fact I think JRRT may
>have meant to continue the original concept. Even if such changes
>WERE taken to be Tolkien's final intent (and again we get into the
>issue of whether he'd have changed it back rather than rework the
>mythology around the new concepts) these alterations themselves
>would be to 'a different world' than that in TH and LotR.
The fact is he never got around to any serious revision of the latter
part of the story (anything from the Fall of Doriath on) in the
post-LotR period, so it's really very difficult to tell what he would
have done about the ending.
--
---Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)-------
"Don't take life so serious, son -- it ain't nohow permanent."
--Porkypine (Walt Kelly)
Russ
<jsol...@erols.com> writes:
>> We've been through this time and time again.
>
>Not me. But your memory, like Elrond's, extends to the earliest
>of days. I perceive that you are wearying of the world. I recommend
>that you catch the next boat to Valinor.
That's funny.
Russ
Russ
writes:
>The fact is he never got around to any serious revision of the latter
>part of the story (anything from the Fall of Doriath on) in the
>post-LotR period, so it's really very difficult to tell what he would
>have done about the ending.
>--
BINGO!
Russ
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez wrote:
>> There is nothing canonical about the Second Prophecy of Mandos with respect
>> to the three books named above.
>>
>not told in the prophesies of Mandos. If it is in plural, as I recall,
>there must also be the second prophesy of Mandos.
And that would mean....
Michael Martinez
>In article <8bqohq$ng_...@news.uswest.net>,
>Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote:
>>>Nobody's requiring you to discuss it, or even read about it, if you'd
>>>rather not.
>>
>>My, my, aren't YOU a little snippy?
>
>Perhaps I was mistaken, but I found it hard to read your "this has
>nothing to do with" comment as other than "snippy". Similarly the
>following, to which I'll suppress the snippy answer I was considering.
You were mistaken.
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez wrote:
>
>> >Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the
>> >SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at all.
>>
>> Wrong. The Second Prophecy of Mandos comes from an earlier mythology.
>> Tolkien reused names each time he developed a new mythology.
>
>They were the same characters, with minor changes.
MAJOR changes.
>> We've been through this time and time again.
>
>Not me. But your memory, like Elrond's, extends to the earliest
>of days. I perceive that you are wearying of the world. I recommend
>that you catch the next boat to Valinor.
I recommend you not start another flame war.
Michael Martinez
>
>Humor me. ;-)
>
>> There is no "last battle" at the end of Time in the mythology represented by
>> THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
>
Tolkien went to great pains to make them so, even though he didn't finish THE
SILMARILLION, which had to be published by his son.
>...In particular, the Silmarillion was a work in progress,
>cobbled together (however brilliantly) by CJRT. It was just one of
>many possible combinations of JRRT's writings.
THE SILMARILLION is a combination of JRRT and CJRT's writings. That doesn't
change the fact that the Valar were no longer gods, that the Dagor Dagorath
had been abandoned, and that Turin -- if he were to return at all -- would
still have been mortal, doomed to die and leave the circles of the world
forever as all men were.
THE SILMARILLION represents the most complete vision of the mythology
envisioned by Tolkien as of the second edition of THE LORD OF THE RINGS.
Michael Martinez
>
>The fact is he never got around to any serious revision of the latter
>part of the story (anything from the Fall of Doriath on) in the
>post-LotR period, so it's really very difficult to tell what he would
>have done about the ending.
All this side-stepping carefully ignores the fact that the world of the Second
Prophecy of Mandos was substantially different from the world of THE HOBBIT
(second edition onward), THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. Turin could not
come back at the end of Time and slay Morgoth.
Tamim Khawaja
Michael Martinez wrote:
>
> In article <38E0EC5B...@helsinki.fi>, Tamim Khawaja <tamin....@helsinki.fi> wrote:
> >Michael Martinez wrote:
> >> There is nothing canonical about the Second Prophecy of Mandos with respect
> >> to the three books named above.
> >>
> >Doesn't silmarillion mention that something ( don't remember what) is
> >not told in the prophesies of Mandos. If it is in plural, as I recall,
> >there must also be the second prophesy of Mandos.
>
> And that would mean....
>
It would mean that contrary to what you stated
> The fact is that the second prophecy of Mandos has no place in the world of
> THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. The only connection
> between it and that world is the fact that Tolkien intended to include a
> revised prophecy (from Andreth, not Namo/Mandos
there is a place in the silmarillion for a second prophesy of Mandos.
I have to admit though that it doesn't mean the second prophesy had
anything to do with Dagor Dagorath.
Dave Lind
Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:1laE4.1702$na7.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> "Dave Lind" <dav...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> news:bwUD4.199$nS6....@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net...
>
> > The Second Prophecy of Mandos was excised from the _Quenta
> > Silmarillion_, but as usual it not as black and white as MM wants
> > to portray it.
>
> Actually, it appears in the Quenta Silmarillion. Pages 324 and 333
> of my HMCO hardcover Lost Road. I quoted the text in a message
> yesterday.
You will even find it in _The War of the Jewels_ BUT, by intent the Second
Prophecy was removed from the mouth of Mandos.
>
> In fact it appears in every major version of the Silmarillion...
> only 'disappearing' from some of the very late fragments which did
> not cover the full scope of events. Even then there are some small
> references as has been noted in quotations to this thread.
I have referred to that particular passage in the essay "The Problem of
Ros". I failed to note however that it moves Turin's return forward from the
End to the end of the First Age where he takes over Earendil's role as the
slayer of Ancalagon.
Dave
Dave Lind
Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote in message
news:8bsgnu$2v0...@news.uswest.net...
> In article <8brh3d$293t$1...@newsie2.cent.net>, co...@spdcc.net wrote:
> >
> >The fact is he never got around to any serious revision of the latter
> >part of the story (anything from the Fall of Doriath on) in the
> >post-LotR period, so it's really very difficult to tell what he would
> >have done about the ending.
>
Second
> Prophecy of Mandos was substantially different from the world of THE
HOBBIT
You have said this more than once but that does not make it correct. The
world of _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ is precisely where the
Second Prophecy belongs. It was only after the completion of LOTR when
Tolkien began the major overhaul the Legendarium that the SP was
reconsidered.
Mr. Coren is not side-stepping but has hit the nail on the head. The SP had
long roots and as someone noted is present in every version of the
Legendarium from "The Hiding of Valinor" in _The Book of Lost Tales_ to the
second revision of the later "Quenta Silmarillion" in _The War of the
Jewels_. If Tolkien had finished the Quenta would he have included the SP?
In spite of MM's claim to the contrary we don't know. I tend, however, to
agree with MM, that the SP doesn't have a place in the later Legendarium,
but that is my OPINION. I can't think of any evidence other than
Christopher Tolkien's strong statements that the SP was rejected on the
basis of one quote in the Valaquenta.
>
> Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. Turin could
not
> come back at the end of Time and slay Morgoth.
Of course Men could not become Valar (unless Tolkien wanted them to :-) )
but what does this have to do with anything? The latest version of the SP
(_War of the Jewels_ pg. 247) says that Turin (and Beren) "returning from
the Doom of Men at the end of the world"... It is no longer claimed that
Turin came from Mandos or that he was counted "among the sons of the Valar".
Dave
Russ
Martinez) writes:
>>The fact is he never got around to any serious revision of the latter
>>part of the story (anything from the Fall of Doriath on) in the
>>post-LotR period, so it's really very difficult to tell what he would
>>have done about the ending.
>
>All this side-stepping carefully ignores the fact that the world of the
>Second
>Prophecy of Mandos was substantially different from the world of THE HOBBIT
>(second edition onward), THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
>
>Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. Turin could not
>come back at the end of Time and slay Morgoth.
Men did however not immediately leave the circles of the world upon their
death. There was a waiting time on Mandos for them as well. This allowed
Beren to still be there when Luthien showed up.
Perhaps Turin was simply waiting in Mandos for a long time. His nature wasn't
changed. He will still eventually leave the circles of the world as all mortals
do; however, he will be granted a grace, as Beren was, to return for a short
time. Unlike Beren, Turin will not return to live out his life, but rather to
have his and Man's revenge on Morgoth.
Russ
Mark Wells
Martinez) wrote:
>All this side-stepping carefully ignores the fact that the world of the Second
>Prophecy of Mandos was substantially different from the world of THE HOBBIT
>(second edition onward), THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
>
>Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. Turin could not
>come back at the end of Time and slay Morgoth.
The Nazgul and the wraiths of Dunharrow became immortal.
Steuard Jensen
> Mic...@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote:
> >Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period.
> The Nazgul and the wraiths of Dunharrow became immortal.
I wouldn't say that the Nazgul became immortal, at least not in an
"intrinsic" sense. That is, I don't believe that their basic nature
was changed. Their rings simply held back the aging process for them
(and considering Bilbo's fairly swift decay after the destruction of
the One, a lot of that "missing aging" was lurking in the background,
waiting to pounce).
As for the wraiths of Dunharrow, I don't know that we really know
enough about them to say. My interpretation has been that they were,
in fact, Dead Men, and that it was merely their spirits (whatever that
means precisely) that kept hanging around the stone of Erech. That
doesn't really sound like standard immortality to me.
The only rumored mortal to immortal transition that I'm really aware
of is Tuor, and as discussed in other older threads, I think that's
just a pretty legend.
Steuard Jensen
Flame of the West
> >> There is no "last battle" at the end of Time in the mythology represented by
> >> THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
> >
> >I don't view those three books as representing a single coherent
> >mythology...
>
> Tolkien went to great pains to make them so, even though he didn't finish THE
> SILMARILLION, which had to be published by his son.
Which is precisely my point. The Silm. is a pretty good approximation
to what JRRT would have wound up with, IMHO. But there would have
been *some* changes, and I believe that the reinstatement of a Last
Battle prophecy would very likely have been one of them.
> THE SILMARILLION is a combination of JRRT and CJRT's writings. That doesn't
> change the fact that the Valar were no longer gods, that the Dagor Dagorath
> had been abandoned, and that Turin -- if he were to return at all -- would
> still have been mortal, doomed to die and leave the circles of the world
> forever as all men were.
The Valar were never gods in the sense that Eru is God. I suspect he
called them "gods" to harmonize his nomenclature with that of the
Nordic myths. You're probably right about Túrin, but the Last Battle
long outlived that change.
Flame of the West
> >> >Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the
> >> >SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at all.
> >>
> >> Wrong. The Second Prophecy of Mandos comes from an earlier mythology.
> >> Tolkien reused names each time he developed a new mythology.
> >
> >They were the same characters, with minor changes.
>
> MAJOR changes.
Name some major changes in any of the above characters
that happened AFTER the deletion of the 2nd Prophecy.
> >> We've been through this time and time again.
> >
> >Not me. But your memory, like Elrond's, extends to the earliest
> >of days. I perceive that you are wearying of the world. I recommend
> >that you catch the next boat to Valinor.
>
> I recommend you not start another flame war.
My goodness, you are offended easily! I can't imagine how one
could be offended at being likened to Elrond, one of the noblest
and most awe-inspiring beings in the history of Middle-Earth,
and perhaps my very favorite character.
But I am making a serious point: it is illegimitate to try to stifle
debate on a subject just because it has been addressed before.
The makeup of this NG is constantly changing. Indeed, if you're
going to count every change Tolkien made as a "new" mythology,
I can regard RABT as a new NG everytime someone enters.
So your debates occurred on an earlier NG, not this one.
Besides, your earlier debates were defective, in that they
did not enjoy the benefits of my considerable wisdom. ;-)
Flame of the West
Michael Martinez wrote:
> >> >> We've been through this time and time again.
> >> >
> >> >Not me. But your memory, like Elrond's, extends to the earliest
> >> >of days. I perceive that you are wearying of the world. I recommend
> >> >that you catch the next boat to Valinor.
> >>
> >> I recommend you not start another flame war.
> >
> >My goodness, you are offended easily!
>
> I didn't say I was offended. But you clearly feel it's necessary to make
> personal remarks about the other person, even though the other person hasn't
> made them about you. That's how flame wars get started.
>
> If you can keep your comments ON THE SUBJECT and off the people you disagree
> with, you'll find we have a very civil discussion.
I beg your pardon, but it was you who went off-subject with your comment
> >> >> We've been through this time and time again.
That was not a helpful addition to the discussion but rather an attempt
to stifle it IMHO. Or did I misinterpret you?
Flame of the West
> >Which is precisely my point. The Silm. is a pretty good approximation
> >to what JRRT would have wound up with, IMHO. But there would have
> >been *some* changes, and I believe that the reinstatement of a Last
> >Battle prophecy would very likely have been one of them.
>
> THE SILMARILLION is a horrible approximation of what JRRT would have wound up
> with. We know this because Christopher Tolkien has repudiated his heavy
> editorial handling of it and because he revealed that his father was
> reinventing the entire mythology anyway.
I agree with Steuard that there is a good chance that JRRT would
eventually have thought better of his "Myths Transformed" changes.
IMHO, he would have opted for a more classically mythological
approach, and left things pretty much where they were. This is
why I believe that the published Silm. is reasonably close to what
JRRT eventually would have published. I also think that there
would have been a Last Battle prophecy by someone, given his
almost lifelong attachment to the idea.
As for CJRT, it's hard to see what else he could have done.
The state of the material was such that he could not have
made a coherent, readable book without serious editing.
The only alternative would have been an UT or HoME approach,
which is fine for fanatics like us but would not have reached
the audience that the Silmarillion did. So I think that CJRT
was being a little too hard on himself. He certainly made
good on reporting the true state of the material with his
subsequent UT and HoME work.
Flame of the West
> >> >> >Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the
> >> >> >SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at
> > all.
> >> >>
> >> >> Wrong. The Second Prophecy of Mandos comes from an earlier mythology.
> >> >> Tolkien reused names each time he developed a new mythology.
> >> >
> >> >They were the same characters, with minor changes.
> >>
> >> MAJOR changes.
> >
> >Name some major changes in any of the above characters
> >that happened AFTER the deletion of the 2nd Prophecy.
>
> The Valar were no longer gods, and Turin was no longer coming back to take his
> place among them.
This is a circular argument. You claim that the SPoM belonged to
a different mythology, and to justify it, you point to changes such
as deletion of Túrin's return to kill Morgoth. In other words, the
mythology to which SPoM belongs was different, because it
contained SPoM!
David Sulger
>The Valar were no longer gods
Even though in the later versions of the mythology the Valar had lost
their divine status, didn't some groups of men still worship them as
gods?
--Dave
David Sulger
>The Nazgul and the wraiths of
>Dunharrow became immortal.
Not exaclty. Their Nazguls' "immortality" was derived from their rings.
It is concievable, that if they were to be removed from the influence of
their rings, that they would eventally die.
The dead were under a curse from Isildur, bound to wait until Aragorn
came along to free them from their curse. I assume their spirits were
still bound to the circle of the world until they aided Aragorn, at
which point their spirits were set free, allowing them to finally "die".
--Dave
Tamim Khawaja
Steuard Jensen wrote:
>
> Quoth ma...@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells):
> > Mic...@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote:
> > >Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period.
>
> > The Nazgul and the wraiths of Dunharrow became immortal.
>
> I wouldn't say that the Nazgul became immortal, at least not in an
> "intrinsic" sense. That is, I don't believe that their basic nature
> was changed. Their rings simply held back the aging process for them
> (and considering Bilbo's fairly swift decay after the destruction of
> the One, a lot of that "missing aging" was lurking in the background,
> waiting to pounce).
>
> As for the wraiths of Dunharrow, I don't know that we really know
> enough about them to say. My interpretation has been that they were,
> in fact, Dead Men, and that it was merely their spirits (whatever that
> means precisely) that kept hanging around the stone of Erech. That
> doesn't really sound like standard immortality to me.
>
> The only rumored mortal to immortal transition that I'm really aware
> of is Tuor, and as discussed in other older threads, I think that's
> just a pretty legend.
I agree. I would suppose that immortality in Tolkiens world doesn't only
mean that one doesn't age or get sick. It means that if you are
destroyed one way or the other you remain in Arda. I think the Nazgul,
as humans had the destiny or gift of men after they finally perished.
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez wrote:
>>
>> In article <38E0EC5B...@helsinki.fi>, Tamim Khawaja
> <tamin....@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>> >> There is nothing canonical about the Second Prophecy of Mandos with
>> >> respect to the three books named above.
>> >>
>> >Doesn't silmarillion mention that something ( don't remember what) is
>> >not told in the prophesies of Mandos. If it is in plural, as I recall,
>> >there must also be the second prophesy of Mandos.
>>
>> And that would mean....
>>
>It would mean that contrary to what you stated
>
>> The fact is that the second prophecy of Mandos has no place in the world of
>> THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. The only connection
>> between it and that world is the fact that Tolkien intended to include a
>> revised prophecy (from Andreth, not Namo/Mandos
>
>there is a place in the silmarillion for a second prophesy of Mandos.
>I have to admit though that it doesn't mean the second prophesy had
>anything to do with Dagor Dagorath.
Nope. It would mean anything contrary to what I stated. I didn't say Namo
didn't make more than one prophecy. I was referring to the specific prophecy
from the earlier mythology which is called "the second prophecy of Mandos"
(or, "the Second Prophecy of Mandos").
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez wrote:
>
>> >> >Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the
>> >> >SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at
> all.
>> >>
>> >> Wrong. The Second Prophecy of Mandos comes from an earlier mythology.
>> >> Tolkien reused names each time he developed a new mythology.
>> >
>> >They were the same characters, with minor changes.
>>
>> MAJOR changes.
>
>Name some major changes in any of the above characters
>that happened AFTER the deletion of the 2nd Prophecy.
The Valar were no longer gods, and Turin was no longer coming back to take his
place among them.
>> >> We've been through this time and time again.
>> >
>> >Not me. But your memory, like Elrond's, extends to the earliest
>> >of days. I perceive that you are wearying of the world. I recommend
>> >that you catch the next boat to Valinor.
>>
>> I recommend you not start another flame war.
>
>My goodness, you are offended easily!
I didn't say I was offended. But you clearly feel it's necessary to make
personal remarks about the other person, even though the other person hasn't
made them about you. That's how flame wars get started.
If you can keep your comments ON THE SUBJECT and off the people you disagree
with, you'll find we have a very civil discussion.
Michael Martinez
>> >
>> >I don't view those three books as representing a single coherent
>> >mythology...
>>
>> Tolkien went to great pains to make them so, even though he didn't finish THE
>> SILMARILLION, which had to be published by his son.
>
>to what JRRT would have wound up with, IMHO. But there would have
>been *some* changes, and I believe that the reinstatement of a Last
>Battle prophecy would very likely have been one of them.
THE SILMARILLION is a horrible approximation of what JRRT would have wound up
with. We know this because Christopher Tolkien has repudiated his heavy
editorial handling of it and because he revealed that his father was
reinventing the entire mythology anyway.
>> THE SILMARILLION is a combination of JRRT and CJRT's writings. That doesn't
>> change the fact that the Valar were no longer gods, that the Dagor Dagorath
>> had been abandoned, and that Turin -- if he were to return at all -- would
>> still have been mortal, doomed to die and leave the circles of the world
>> forever as all men were.
>
>The Valar were never gods in the sense that Eru is God. I suspect he
>called them "gods" to harmonize his nomenclature with that of the
>Nordic myths. You're probably right about Túrin, but the Last Battle
>long outlived that change.
Yes, the Valar started out as gods. Classic, mythical gods.
Michael Martinez
>In article <8bsgnu$2v0...@news.uswest.net>, Mic...@xenite.org (Michael
>Martinez) writes:
>
>>Second Prophecy of Mandos was substantially different from the world of
>>SILMARILLION.
>>
>>Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. Turin could not
>
>Men did however not immediately leave the circles of the world upon their
>death. There was a waiting time on Mandos for them as well. This allowed
>Beren to still be there when Luthien showed up.
Which is completely irrelevant to the substantial change in Turin's story.
After Tolkien finished THE LORD OF THE RINGS, he decided there was no way
Turin would join the Valar and Maiar, or fight Morgoth at the end of Time.
Michael Martinez
>On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:00:46 GMT, Mic...@xenite.org (Michael
>Martinez) wrote:
>
>>Prophecy of Mandos was substantially different from the world of THE HOBBIT
>>(second edition onward), THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION.
>>
>>Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. Turin could not
>>come back at the end of Time and slay Morgoth.
>
They most certainly did not. They would not have been called wraiths if they
were considered to be living men.
Michael Martinez
>
>I agree. I would suppose that immortality in Tolkiens world doesn't only
>mean that one doesn't age or get sick. It means that if you are
>destroyed one way or the other you remain in Arda. I think the Nazgul,
>as humans had the destiny or gift of men after they finally perished.
Tolkien used "immortality" to refer to the immortality of the body with
respect to Men and Elves. Elves did not always live forever, however. Their
immortality was sometimes circumvented (and I don't mean by the violent deaths
they suffered -- I'm referring to the select cases of Finwe, Luthien, and
Arwen).
Conrad Dunkerson
news:ZztE4.37$d6.981@uchinews...
> The only rumored mortal to immortal transition that I'm really
> aware of is Tuor, and as discussed in other older threads, I
> think that's just a pretty legend.
Well, there is also Turin of course in some versions. Interesting
that they were cousins / had the whole related H to T names thing
going on.
Conrad Dunkerson
> I have referred to that particular passage in the essay "The
> Problem of Ros". I failed to note however that it moves Turin's
> return forward from the End to the end of the First Age where he
> takes over Earendil's role as the slayer of Ancalagon.
Possibly. Christopher puts forward that explanation of the
passage, but I'm not sure I buy it. Let's look at the actual
wording (ignoring Christopher's commentary for the moment);
"The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had
perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue be heard
again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove
true, that Turin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead,
and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should
challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and
deal him the death-stroke."
PoME, The Problem of Ros - Note 17 ~1968
Now, note that this text is in reference to why when Earendil was
presenting his case to the Valar he used several languages but NOT
the language of the folk of Haleth. This would thus be IMMEDIATELY
prior to the War of Wrath. It seems odd to me that the prophecy of
Andreth would be listed in such uncertain terms if it referred to a
time immediately imminent... the author should know whether the
prophecy was true or not as the events would have to have
transpired already in order for knowledge of Earendil's deeds to be
available. Very much a 'story internal' issue, but then there is
also the weight of history... time and again Tolkien has described
the return of Turin, and it has always been at the end of days. It
is thus not unreasonable to believe that he was doing so again here
when he speaks of the "Last Battle".
Indeed, reading the passage above the ONLY thing which might seem
to place a date to it other than the end of days is the mention of
Ancalagon. Christopher apparently noted the presence of Ancalagon
and took this to mean Turin returned at the end of the First Age,
the "Last Battle" then being the end of the War of Wrath rather
than Dagor Dagorath. But is this assumption warranted on the
basis of Ancalagon's presence? Turin was killing dragons at the
end of days as far back as 1919;
"...but Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwe in the Great
Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil."
BoLT2, Turambar and the Foaloke
As I said recently in another post... if Turin and Morgoth can
return from the dead for the Last Battle why not Ancalagon? OR, if
Earendil is now NOT to slay Ancalagon what need be there to assume
that Ancalagon dies at the end of the First Age rather than some
later time... the end of days for instance? This one aberrant
passage could be taken as a mistake, name re-use, or a passing
fancy that Ancalagon might have survived and been thrust into the
Void with Morgoth.
Trying to redefine the Second Prophecy of Mandos based on a short
stray comment written nearly twenty years after the publication of
LotR is nearly impossible. For that matter 'The Problem of Ros'
was annotated "most of this fails" when JRRT realized that the
explanation for the root 'ros' he had come up with did not work for
'Cair Andros'... as such even the loosely defined ambiguous passing
reference may well have been something Tolkien discarded at once.
Even doing the mental gymnastics to convince oneself that it MUST
refer to the War of Wrath and MUST have been Tolkien's final
decision on the matter... it would still be a change which did not
come about until long after The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings had
been published... a major alteration, like the revised cosmology,
which may or may not have been reconcilable to the rest of the
mythology.
Russ
<jsol...@erols.com> writes:
>> THE SILMARILLION is a horrible approximation of what JRRT would have wound
>up
>> with. We know this because Christopher Tolkien has repudiated his heavy
>> editorial handling of it and because he revealed that his father was
>> reinventing the entire mythology anyway.
>
>I agree with Steuard that there is a good chance that JRRT would
>eventually have thought better of his "Myths Transformed" changes.
>IMHO, he would have opted for a more classically mythological
>approach, and left things pretty much where they were. This is
>why I believe that the published Silm. is reasonably close to what
>JRRT eventually would have published. I also think that there
>would have been a Last Battle prophecy by someone, given his
>almost lifelong attachment to the idea.
What is the big deal with Myths Trasnformed. The main cosmological difference
is the creation of the Sun and Moon. The traditional cosmology has a later
creation of the Sun, thus explaining my for eons Arda was bathed only in
starlight. The Myths Transformed cosmology wanted the celestial bodies to be
there from the beginning. Tolkien recognized that this would affect the beauty
of the image of Elves awakening in starlight. But he have an explanation. Just
as Melkor wreaked havoc with the form and substance of Arda (raising mountains,
throwing up fires, moving rivers, etc.), the battles with Melkor could also
have affected the Sun and the Moon (dimming them throwing them (or rather ME
out of orbit) shrouding them in darkness, etc.) For example, Melkor's
ravishment of the sun maia (forgot her name) resulted its dimming and it was
only rekindled when Fingolfin stepped on Middle Earth. This would be
consistent with the "traditional" cosmology.
I really don't see what all the hue and cry is about.
>
Russ
Michael Martinez
>> personal remarks about the other person, even though the other person hasn't
>> made them about you. That's how flame wars get started.
>>
>> If you can keep your comments ON THE SUBJECT and off the people you disagree
>> with, you'll find we have a very civil discussion.
>
>
These news groups HAVE been through this time and time again. There was
nothing in that remark aimed toward YOU personally (and certainly nothing
insulting or derogatory).
Michael Martinez
>> >that happened AFTER the deletion of the 2nd Prophecy.
>>
>> The Valar were no longer gods, and Turin was no longer coming back to take
>> his place among them.
>
>a different mythology, and to justify it, you point to changes such
>as deletion of Túrin's return to kill Morgoth. In other words, the
>mythology to which SPoM belongs was different, because it
>contained SPoM!
There is nothing circular in stating the facts. You demanded that I name some
changes in any of the characters. I named two major changes.
The second prophecy of Mandos belongs to an earlier mythology in which the
Valar were gods and Turin would take his place among their children. The
earlier mythology was different from the published mythology for many reasons,
these not being the least of them.
Michael Martinez
>> >to what JRRT would have wound up with, IMHO. But there would have
>> >been *some* changes, and I believe that the reinstatement of a Last
>> >Battle prophecy would very likely have been one of them.
>>
>> with. We know this because Christopher Tolkien has repudiated his heavy
>> editorial handling of it and because he revealed that his father was
>> reinventing the entire mythology anyway.
>
>I agree with Steuard that there is a good chance that JRRT would
>eventually have thought better of his "Myths Transformed" changes.
>IMHO, he would have opted for a more classically mythological
>approach, and left things pretty much where they were. This is
>why I believe that the published Silm. is reasonably close to what
>JRRT eventually would have published. I also think that there
>would have been a Last Battle prophecy by someone, given his
>almost lifelong attachment to the idea.
There is absolutely no evidence to indicate that J.R.R. Tolkien, as he neared
the end of his life, was returning to the classical mythology he had abandoned
in the 1920s, or even to the pseudo-classical themes he retained into the
1930s. The evolution of Middle-earth in his conception was progressing toward
a more sophisticated and rational projection.
The published SILMARILLION -- according to Christopher Tolkien himself --
represents only an approximation of what could be achieved with the most fully
developed texts, despite the numerous inconsistencies between them all.
>As for CJRT, it's hard to see what else he could have done.
>The state of the material was such that he could not have
>made a coherent, readable book without serious editing.
>The only alternative would have been an UT or HoME approach,
>which is fine for fanatics like us but would not have reached
>the audience that the Silmarillion did. So I think that CJRT
>was being a little too hard on himself. He certainly made
>good on reporting the true state of the material with his
>subsequent UT and HoME work.
Christopher could have elected to do many other things than what he did do.
He could have deferred the publication of THE SILMARILLION for many more
years, although he certainly was under a great deal of pressure to put out
SOMETHING. He also could have simply assembled the available texts ala
UNFINISHED TALES and published maybe 2 or 3 volumes which, though not coherent
like THE SILMARILLION, would have been more faithful to his father's work than
the published SILMARILLION turned out to be.
Michael Martinez
The histories are derived from the Elves, and originally it was the Elves who
believed the Valar were gods. This aspect was dropped (along with many
others).
Mark Wells
Martinez) wrote:
>Tolkien used "immortality" to refer to the immortality of the body with
>respect to Men and Elves. Elves did not always live forever, however. Their
>immortality was sometimes circumvented (and I don't mean by the violent deaths
>they suffered -- I'm referring to the select cases of Finwe, Luthien, and
>Arwen).
Finwe? Didn't he agree to live in Mandos until the end of the world?
If so, I don't think his case is that different from that of many
other Elves who were for some reason never allowed to leave Mandos.
(Feanor, for instance.) Tolkien appeared to count living in Mandos as
'immortality'.
Mark Wells
Martinez) wrote:
>Christopher could have elected to do many other things than what he did do.
>He could have deferred the publication of THE SILMARILLION for many more
>years, although he certainly was under a great deal of pressure to put out
>SOMETHING. He also could have simply assembled the available texts ala
>UNFINISHED TALES and published maybe 2 or 3 volumes which, though not coherent
>like THE SILMARILLION, would have been more faithful to his father's work than
>the published SILMARILLION turned out to be.
And in the end, he did both. He assembled the available texts a la
UNFINISHED TALES and published them as UNFINISHED TALES. He assembled
most of the rest of the available texts and published them as HoME.
But he also wanted to publish a readable, semi-coherent version of the
legends of the First Age. THE SILMARILLION as published isn't
entirely faithful to Tolkien's intentions, and Christopher _explained_
that it's not.
THE SILMARILLION can be seen as something like the Cliffs Notes of
HoME. It's not entirely accurate; in fact, in a few places it's
thoroughly inaccurate. But it's much easier to read.
Dave Lind
Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:CzzE4.544$is2....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
[snip]
> As I said recently in another post... if Turin and Morgoth can
> return from the dead for the Last Battle why not Ancalagon? OR, if
> Earendil is now NOT to slay Ancalagon what need be there to assume
> that Ancalagon dies at the end of the First Age rather than some
> later time... the end of days for instance? This one aberrant
> passage could be taken as a mistake, name re-use, or a passing
> fancy that Ancalagon might have survived and been thrust into the
> Void with Morgoth.
>
> Trying to redefine the Second Prophecy of Mandos based on a short
> stray comment written nearly twenty years after the publication of
> LotR is nearly impossible. For that matter 'The Problem of Ros'
> was annotated "most of this fails" when JRRT realized that the
> explanation for the root 'ros' he had come up with did not work for
> 'Cair Andros'... as such even the loosely defined ambiguous passing
> reference may well have been something Tolkien discarded at once.
> Even doing the mental gymnastics to convince oneself that it MUST
> refer to the War of Wrath and MUST have been Tolkien's final
> decision on the matter... it would still be a change which did not
> come about until long after The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings had
> been published... a major alteration, like the revised cosmology,
> which may or may not have been reconcilable to the rest of the
> mythology.
You might be right, without any other evidence it could mean anything. But
given "The Problem of Ros", the statement at the end of the _Valaquenta_,
and Christopher Tolkien's belief that the Second Prophecy was abandoned (or
at least it was no longer to be delivered by Mandos), I'll side with
Christopher. He does have access to many unpublished writings and just might
have evidence that he didn't feel the need to present.
Dave
Dave Lind
David Sulger <or...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23014-38...@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Michael Martinez wrote:
>
> >The Valar were no longer gods
>
> Even though in the later versions of the mythology the Valar had lost
> their divine status, didn't some groups of men still worship them as
> gods?
When did this change in status occur? I'm aware that Tolkien decided not to
use the word _god_ but how does that equate to a change in status?
More importantly, the Valar were never really "gods", they were always
powerful beings created by God.
I'm sure someone is going to come up with a list of references to "the
gods". Before you take the time to dig them all up consider this: every
version in the "Quenta" tradition has some form of this disclaimer, "These
spirits the Elves named the Valar, which is the Powers, though Men have
often called them Gods". The "Quenta" is a book translated by Aelfwine, a
man, who used _gods_ to translate Valar.
Dave
Durin VII
Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote in message
news:8bue6h$3i8...@news.uswest.net...
> In article <20000329102542...@nso-fk.aol.com>, mcr...@aol.com
(Russ) wrote:
> >In article <8bsgnu$2v0...@news.uswest.net>, Mic...@xenite.org (Michael
> >Martinez) writes:
> >Men did however not immediately leave the circles of the world upon their
> >death. There was a waiting time on Mandos for them as well. This
allowed
> >Beren to still be there when Luthien showed up.
>
> Which is completely irrelevant to the substantial change in Turin's story.
> After Tolkien finished THE LORD OF THE RINGS, he decided there was no way
> Turin would join the Valar and Maiar, or fight Morgoth at the end of Time.
Why is this irrelevant? If there is a waiting period, why couldn't it vary
from person to person as needs fit. I am not as up on the other writing of
Tolkien as others in this NG, but reading this thread, I have not seen
sufficient proof that Tolkien 'decided there was no way Turin would join the
Valar and Maiar, or fight Morgoth at the end of Time.'
Michael Martinez
>On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:32:01 GMT, Mic...@xenite.org (Michael
>Martinez) wrote:
>
>>Tolkien used "immortality" to refer to the immortality of the body with
>>respect to Men and Elves. Elves did not always live forever, however. Their
>>immortality was sometimes circumvented (and I don't mean by the violent deaths
>>they suffered -- I'm referring to the select cases of Finwe, Luthien, and
>>Arwen).
>
>Finwe? Didn't he agree to live in Mandos until the end of the world?
"Live" is not an appropriate word for it. He was dead, and he agreed to stay
dead.
And it can be argued that many of the Feanorians probably were stuck there
until the end of Time as well, but I only needed to cite a few specific
examples.
Michael Martinez
>On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:43:52 GMT, Mic...@xenite.org (Michael
>Martinez) wrote:
>
>>Christopher could have elected to do many other things than what he did do.
>>He could have deferred the publication of THE SILMARILLION for many more
>>years, although he certainly was under a great deal of pressure to put out
>>SOMETHING. He also could have simply assembled the available texts ala
>>UNFINISHED TALES and published maybe 2 or 3 volumes which, though not coherent
>>like THE SILMARILLION, would have been more faithful to his father's work than
>>the published SILMARILLION turned out to be.
>
>And in the end, he did both. He assembled the available texts a la
>UNFINISHED TALES and published them as UNFINISHED TALES. He assembled
>most of the rest of the available texts and published them as HoME.
He did neither. UNFINISHED TALES is not a compilation of the SILMARILLION
texts. And HOME is a study of how JRRT developed the stories, not a
compilation of the texts.
THE SILMARILLION is simply a book intended to satisfy a long-starved
readership, but even in the foreword to SILMARILLION Christopher expresses
reservations about the book.
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez <Mic...@xenite.org> wrote in message
>news:8bue6h$3i8...@news.uswest.net...
>> In article <20000329102542...@nso-fk.aol.com>, mcr...@aol.com
>> (Russ) wrote:
>> >In article <8bsgnu$2v0...@news.uswest.net>, Mic...@xenite.org (Michael
>> >Martinez) writes:
>
>> >Men did however not immediately leave the circles of the world upon their
>> >death. There was a waiting time on Mandos for them as well. This
>> >allowed Beren to still be there when Luthien showed up.
>>
>> Which is completely irrelevant to the substantial change in Turin's story.
>> After Tolkien finished THE LORD OF THE RINGS, he decided there was no way
>> Turin would join the Valar and Maiar, or fight Morgoth at the end of Time.
>
>Why is this irrelevant?
Because it doesn't provide any way for Turin to wait until the end of Time and
become one of the Valar or Maiar.
Russ
Martinez) writes:
>>> >Men did however not immediately leave the circles of the world upon their
>>> >death. There was a waiting time on Mandos for them as well. This
>>> >allowed Beren to still be there when Luthien showed up.
>>>
>>> Which is completely irrelevant to the substantial change in Turin's story.
>>> After Tolkien finished THE LORD OF THE RINGS, he decided there was no way
>>> Turin would join the Valar and Maiar, or fight Morgoth at the end of Time.
>>
>>Why is this irrelevant?
>
>Because it doesn't provide any way for Turin to wait until the end of Time
>and
>become one of the Valar or Maiar.
>
That wasn't the point I was making. I was only stating how *mortal* Turin
could still be around waiting in Mandos for the Last Battle.
Russ
Stan Brown
>And in the end, he did both. He assembled the available texts a la
>UNFINISHED TALES and published them as UNFINISHED TALES. He assembled
>most of the rest of the available texts and published them as HoME.
>
>legends of the First Age. THE SILMARILLION as published isn't
>entirely faithful to Tolkien's intentions, and Christopher _explained_
>that it's not.
A point that should not be overlooked: Only with the publication of
THE SILMARILLION was it demonstrated that there might possibly be a
market for the HoME that appeals to us fanatics. I think if CJRT
had started with UT instead, he might have had trouble getting it
published; and if he had originally proposed a 12-volume HoME I bet
the publishers would have turned him down flat.
Does anyone know if HoME, especially the later volumes, made money
for A&U?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/
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