Gandalf Actor
Timothy Lee
John P Willoughby
: Resurrect Sir Michael Horden
Isn't he the guy that did it in the BBC radio production?
If so, he did a fantastic job, however, after seeing him
on film (in 'Yellowbeard') I wonder how well he could
pull if off visually....
Bruce McMenomy
He did do a good job. And he did a good enough job in the Anthony
Andrews version of Ivanhoe as -- oh, I forget his name: Ivanhoe's dad.
The point is, however, moot: unfortunately Sir Michael died earlier this
year. Without resorting to necromancy -- which would just be too ironic
for a character to play Gandalf -- has anyone any more ideas to toss
into the pot?
Glenn Saunders
If you are going to bring anyone back to life, bring John Houston back.
He had the perfect voice, and also had that combination of frailty and
Hemmingwayesque bravado that you need in a Gandalf.
Andrew Scott
Gandalf was never frail. His physique was superior in both strength and
toughness to that of any hobbit, human or elf. Witness the way he picked
up Faramir, a full-grown, strong man, as if he were as light as a pillow.
He said in Fangorn words to the effect that no normal weapon would have
any effect on him.
Regards,
Andrew Scott.
Todd Wuerdeman
>From: Bruce McMenomy <mcme...@halcyon.com>
>Subject: Re: Gandalf Actor
>Date: 4 Jun 1995 05:04:27 GMT
>What about Sean Connery? I think he could play Gandalf very well. Then
again, I happen to like him. Bree
twu...@q.continuum.net
Lipowicz
Robin Hood suggests he can play a wise man.
Brian E. Clark
> Has anyone ever considered Morgan Freeman for the part?
Yes, indeed I think Morgan Freeman would bring to the role all the
essential qualities of a screen Gandalf: compassion, world-weary wisdom,
sadness, resolve. He can also appear physically formidable.
-brian
--
"Saints fly only in the eyes of their disciples." - Hindu proverb
Jim Jagielski
Yeah... but he LOOKED like a frail, old man.
You can't have Gandalf look like some robust old-dude...
--
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
| Jim Jagielski | j...@jagubox.gsfc.nasa.gov | V: 301 286-5964 |
| NASA/GSFC, Code 734.4 | Greenbelt, MD 20771 | F: 301 286-1719 |
<< "Oh... I wish I was a loofa" -Capt. Stillman >>
Glenn Saunders
: Gandalf was never frail. His physique was superior in both strength and
: up Faramir, a full-grown, strong man, as if he were as light as a pillow.
: He said in Fangorn words to the effect that no normal weapon would have
: any effect on him.
Tolkien described him as weary and frail, like the old man he appeared to
be, many times in TLOTR. These times coincided with his most pessimistic
mindsets.
Any good Tolkien fan realizes that his character descriptions shift
depending on the internal mindset of said character.
Theoden's change from a washed up old man to a virile older warrior is
the most dramatic, but Gandalf too went through such shifts.
Glenn Saunders
: Lipowicz (lipo...@aol.com) wrote:
: > Has anyone ever considered Morgan Freeman for the part?
: Yes, indeed I think Morgan Freeman would bring to the role all the
: essential qualities of a screen Gandalf: compassion, world-weary wisdom,
: sadness, resolve. He can also appear physically formidable.
This would be ridiculous. no P.C. casting, PLEEZ.
Were you the one who suggested Eddie Murphy as 007 too?
I think it was already a stretch to suggest a non-British actor for
Gandalf with John Huston. But let's not go outside the established
racial makeup of Gandalf. (and yeah, I realize he isn't really a human,
but still)
I don't think blacks would want all white actors doing Porgy and Bess so
I want blacks and "PC people" to recognize TLOTR as a northern-european
fantasy. Morgan Freeman would have to be content with the role of a Wose
or a Southron or something.
Brian E. Clark
> The mortal Brian E. Clark wrote:
> : Yes, indeed I think Morgan Freeman would bring to the role all the
> : essential qualities of a screen Gandalf: compassion, world-weary wisdom,
> : sadness, resolve. He can also appear physically formidable.
> This would be ridiculous. no P.C. casting, PLEEZ.
What, pray tell, is PC about suggesting a qualified actor for a role?
Freeman is dark-skinned. Does that makes it a matter of Political
Correctness that I would enjoy seeing him in a role that *you* assume
(perhaps for good but as yet unstated reasons) belongs to white-skinned
folk? Why does Gandalf's race matter at all? It seems no one can even
remember if Gandalf's skin color was ever mentioned by Tolkien -- how
important could it be?
> Were you the one who suggested Eddie Murphy as 007 too?
Huh? I've not seen Eddie play any parts suggesting he'd do well
portraying a cultured British spy. But now that you mention it, I think
Denzel Washington *could* pull off such a role, if he aged a few years
and mastered the accent believeably. ;-)
> I think it was already a stretch to suggest a non-British actor for
> Gandalf with John Huston.
Gandalf was British?
> But let's not go outside the established
> racial makeup of Gandalf.
We have an "established racial makeup" for Gandalf?
Godzilla
: >This would be ridiculous. no P.C. casting, PLEEZ.
: It's not P.C. Morgan Freeman is a fine actor.
: >I think it was already a stretch to suggest a non-British actor for
: >Gandalf with John Huston. But let's not go outside the established
: >racial makeup of Gandalf.
: Which was...? Did JRRT ever say that Gandalf was white?
: Steve
This is a good question. I wondered this myself when the other poster
before Steve got so huffy about Morgan Freeman.
Did Tolkien ever specifically describe Gandalf as white? I remember him
being described as an old man with a white beard, but I dunno about skin
color or race.
Richard Lee
--
I am Godzilla. Hear me roar.
TRISTRAM LIDDIARD
Where DID he come from?
Making him black would meen he would come form the Southlands.
-Tris
---
* SLMR 2.1 * Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes, too!
Joao Mendes
> : Steve
>
> This is a good question. I wondered this myself when the other poster
> before Steve got so huffy about Morgan Freeman.
>
> Did Tolkien ever specifically describe Gandalf as white? I remember him
> being described as an old man with a white beard, but I dunno about skin
> color or race.
Greetings...
Actually, Gandalf's race, to the best of my knowledge, is described
nowhere in the books.
However, there are passages of LotR, which describe men from far away
places, and of colored skin (I can't remember the places, the peoples
or the passages, sorry).
Since nowhere else is a race specifically mentioned, I would assume
that everyone else is caucasian-looking.
Unless, of course, you'd like to think of Gandalf as a Mongol... ;-)
Add to this the fact that Tolkien has a South African background,
which at the time, included (very sadly, IMO), strong ApartHeid
feelings. I would deem it natural for Tolkien to assume a white
supremacy in Middle Earth.
ObDisclaimer: I do NOT condone in ANY way the existence, or even the
concept of ApartHeid. I REFUSE to wear asbestos over this!
Joao Mendes
Smiley when you post that, @stranger...
R F Minchin
: SM>>Which was...? Did JRRT ever say that Gandalf was white?
I can't actually remember it being explicitly stated.
: Where DID he come from?
: Making him black would meen he would come form the Southlands.
He came from the west.
Rob
Julian C. Lander
>
>Add to this the fact that Tolkien has a South African background,
>which at the time, included (very sadly, IMO), strong ApartHeid
>feelings. I would deem it natural for Tolkien to assume a white
>supremacy in Middle Earth.
This has been coming up too often to be ignored. Although
Tolkien was born in Bloemfontein, South Africa, his parents
were English. (They came to South Africa for business
purposes.)
Further, Tolkien's father died quite young, and he and his
mother (and brother) moved back to England when JRRT was well
under 10. (I think he was somewhere between 4 and 6.)
JRRT really should be considered, as he considered himself,
English. (Tolkien itself is derived from German, but his father's
family had been settled in England for generations.)
A minor, and somewhat unrelated, point: Although there was
considerable offical and unofficial racial discrimination in
South Africa for a very long time, the system formally known
as Apartheid was not legalized in its entirety until 1948.
Julian C. Lander
jcla...@mitre.org
Jason B. Barone
<smi...@cs.indiana.edu> writes:
>
>In article <3rfath$k...@news6.primenet.com>,
>>
>>: > Has anyone ever considered Morgan Freeman for the part?
>>
>>: essential qualities of a screen Gandalf: compassion, world-weary
wisdom,
>>: sadness, resolve. He can also appear physically formidable.
>>
>
>It's not P.C. Morgan Freeman is a fine actor.
>
>>I think it was already a stretch to suggest a non-British actor for
>>Gandalf with John Huston. But let's not go outside the established
>>racial makeup of Gandalf.
>
While I agree that Morgan Freeman is a great actor, and would make a
great Gandalf, I still have to go with my feelings and suggest that
Sean Connery would be the best choice. Of course, now that he's
playing King Arthur in FIRST KNIGHT, casting him as Gandalf might not
look very inspired.
Godzilla
: The mortal Jason B. Barone wrote:
: : >Which was...? Did JRRT ever say that Gandalf was white?
: It would look stupid. FACE IT.
What would look stupid? If he were white? Or black? Or Latino? Or
Asian? Or what?
I kinda always thought that give James Earl Jones a big beard and he'd
(esp. with his low, booming voice) give an air to Gandalf that, say, some
WASPy Brit wouldn't be able to.
Glenn Saunders
Louis Epstein
: Glenn Saunders (kri...@primenet.com) wrote:
: : The mortal Jason B. Barone wrote:
: : : >Which was...? Did JRRT ever say that Gandalf was white?
: : It would look stupid. FACE IT.
: What would look stupid? If he were white? Or black? Or Latino? Or
: Asian? Or what?
It would look stupid to have to spell out that Gandalf was white.
: I kinda always thought that give James Earl Jones a big beard and he'd
: (esp. with his low, booming voice) give an air to Gandalf that, say, some
: WASPy Brit wouldn't be able to.
I have no idea why people seem to think JEJ has a patent on the booming
voice.A black Gandalf would just look too alien.
[crosspost to alt.sex.fetish.orientals removed...replaced with
fan.tolkien!!]
Nobody in Particular
Distribution:
On 25 Jun 1995 16:53:20 GMT, Louis Epstein (lep...@j51.com) said something to the effect of:
: Godzilla (rrco...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : Glenn Saunders (kri...@primenet.com) wrote:
: : : The mortal Jason B. Barone wrote:
: : : : >Which was...? Did JRRT ever say that Gandalf was white?
: : : It would look stupid. FACE IT.
: : What would look stupid? If he were white? Or black? Or Latino? Or
: : Asian? Or what?
: It would look stupid to have to spell out that Gandalf was white.
[chop]
: I have no idea why people seem to think JEJ has a patent on the booming
: voice.A black Gandalf would just look too alien.
[snip]
The only (humanoid) characters in Tolkien's world that are _known_ not to
be white are the peoples of the "untamed lands" to the southeast (the
Haradrim, if my memory serves). Tolkien often refers to them in his
descriptions as "swarthy," leading me to believe that he'd drop this sort
of hint if any of his other characters weren't white as well.
Many characters in LOTR, however, _are_ described as white (e.g., the
Rohirrim, and probably the elves too). Add to that the obvious parallels
between the Shire and Britain, and I think we are forced to draw the
conclusion that Tolkien envisioned Middle-Earth (at least that portion of
it which used to be Beleriand) as a predominantly white world. I think
this is an understandable, if not necessarily agreeable, bit of
ethnocentricism on the part of the Master.
Glenn Saunders
: it which used to be Beleriand) as a predominantly white world. I think
: ethnocentricism on the part of the Master.
It's a medieval european feudalistic society. To populate such a society
with asians or blacks would appear out of place. Today, though, it's
almost expected to play such games in the name of political
correctness/affirmative action.
If it were a fantasy story set in a tribal jungle society, I would
likewise be pushing for an all-black cast if the author never mentioned
complexion.
If it were a fantasy story set in a desert climate with an arabic
feudalistic structure (sultan and so on) with curved swords and billowing
MC Hammer pants, I would push for an arabic cast. (Unfortunately this
didn't happen really with the Sinbad movies)
And so on...
These stories are fantasy, but at the same time, they are also closely
tied to the historical culture they are drawn from.
Conan's world, on the other hand, is an example of fantasy which has very
very loose ties to history such that it can do whatever it likes racially.
At least with Tolkien there ARE other racial groups. Much fantasy out
there is 100% implied white--the entire world.
S.A.T. Haldane
>It would look stupid to have to spell out that Gandalf was white.
Many people assume that all the 'good' races are whiter than white (Scandan-
avian style), but I don't see it that way. As far as I can glean, and I can't
offer any evidence for this right now, the Dunlendings, many of the Hobbits,
and quite a lot of the Eldar and Numenoredain were dark, like Southern
Europeans or even North Africans. Only one house of the Eldar was lightly
pigmented (Finarfin's, I think) and similarly only one house of Men (House of
Hador?) . I have always thought of them as being white and blond, and the rest
going through tones of tan and olive and golden to a fairly dark brown. For
instance, the Rohirrim were blond-haired whiteys whereas the Gondoreans I have
always seen as olive-skinned, like Sicilians.
Gandalf was a Maia in human form; presumably he would have looked like one of
the races common to Endor at the time, as no-one describes him as looking
alien; also, no-one refers to what racial stock he resembles. I have always
imagined Gandalf with a dark, ruddy complexion, most probably like a Western
European who has spent a lot of time out in the sun.
Aiya elenion ancalima,
Fin e-Ndaedeloth
S.A.T. Haldane
>It's a medieval european feudalistic society. To populate such a society
>with asians or blacks would appear out of place. Today, though, it's
>almost expected to play such games in the name of political
>correctness/affirmative action.
>These stories are fantasy, but at the same time, they are also closely
>tied to the historical culture they are drawn from.
I disagree. Simply because it draws a lot of elements from Medieval Europe does
not imply that all the elements of Medieval Europe are there. There are a lot
of differences (eg. the existance of magic and Elves, monotheism instead of
the Trinity, etc.) and I see no reason to assume the same racial groups other
than the dictates of geography and climate.
Further, there is was a pretty wide mix of racial stocks in Medieval Europe.
Remember all those Moors in 12th Century Spain?
Fin e-Ndaedeloth
Ike
>Godzilla (rrco...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: Glenn Saunders (kri...@primenet.com) wrote:
>: : The mortal Jason B. Barone wrote:
>: : : >Which was...? Did JRRT ever say that Gandalf was white?
>
>: : It would look stupid. FACE IT.
>
>: What would look stupid? If he were white? Or black? Or Latino? Or
>: Asian? Or what?
>
Why? He spelled out that other people were of one color or another
so why not Gandalf? What makes you think Gandalf was white if it was not
mentioned? He was not exactly "from" ME, so why couldn't he and the other
Wizards be of another race ADN color?
>
>: I kinda always thought that give James Earl Jones a big beard and he'd
>: (esp. with his low, booming voice) give an air to Gandalf that, say, some
>: WASPy Brit wouldn't be able to.
>
>I have no idea why people seem to think JEJ has a patent on the booming
>voice.A black Gandalf would just look too alien.
Who said he did? He just happens to have one.
Ike
______________________________________________________________________________
"Donuts. Is there anything they can't do?" - Homer Simpson
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER
>>It would look stupid to have to spell out that Gandalf was white.
>
> Why? He spelled out that other people were of one color or another
>so why not Gandalf? What makes you think Gandalf was white if it was not
>mentioned? He was not exactly "from" ME, so why couldn't he and the other
>Wizards be of another race ADN color?
Strange discussion.. Well, there's 'Gandalf the White', for a start.
You'd think someone would have made an humerous comment on this title
at some point in the story if he hadn't been.
And there's all those distinctly white pictures of Mr Mithrandir,
which our J never mentioned needed correction.
Besides, everyone's white in ME. Thus when they see them southerners
with the elephants, they notice with surprise that they're black?
Chris Sloetjes
>
>Godzilla (rrco...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: Glenn Saunders (kri...@primenet.com) wrote:
>: : The mortal Jason B. Barone wrote:
>: : : >Which was...? Did JRRT ever say that Gandalf was white?
>
>: : It would look stupid. FACE IT.
>
>: What would look stupid? If he were white? Or black? Or Latino? Or
>: Asian? Or what?
>
>
>: (esp. with his low, booming voice) give an air to Gandalf that, say,
some
>: WASPy Brit wouldn't be able to.
>
>I have no idea why people seem to think JEJ has a patent on the booming
>voice.A black Gandalf would just look too alien.
>
>fan.tolkien!!]
Englad ; as Tolkien intended. Guess what? People nativeto England are
white! go figure.
Godzilla
: In article <3smkop$j...@alva.ge.com>, Ike <cis...@capital.ge.com> wrote:
: >>It would look stupid to have to spell out that Gandalf was white.
: >
: > Why? He spelled out that other people were of one color or another
: >so why not Gandalf? What makes you think Gandalf was white if it was not
: >mentioned? He was not exactly "from" ME, so why couldn't he and the other
: >Wizards be of another race ADN color?
: Strange discussion.. Well, there's 'Gandalf the White', for a start.
: You'd think someone would have made an humerous comment on this title
: at some point in the story if he hadn't been.
Well, it used to be Gandalf the Grey. Does that mean he was gray-skinned?
What about Radagast the Brown? Does that mean he was brown-skinned?
I think the title of "white" was meant to reflect his wisdom and position
as head of the Maia, not his skin color.
: And there's all those distinctly white pictures of Mr Mithrandir,
: which our J never mentioned needed correction.
Illustrators have interpretations, too, you know.
: Besides, everyone's white in ME. Thus when they see them southerners
: with the elephants, they notice with surprise that they're black?
How do you know this? Seriously? The Haradrim were referred to as
swarthy, and the men of Gondor were always talked about as darker than
the Dunedain...
Finrod
One thing i know at least:
1) Aragorn is of pure Dunedain blood (YES blood purity all u delicate Pol.
Corct. ears), a direct heir of the Royal house of Numenor, with ancestors
like Tar-Aldarion (tall, dark hairs, fair skin and grey eyes - typical
nordic or irish look);
2) Boromir was a pure dunedain too;
3) Legolas was son of Thranduil, himself kin with Elu Thingol of Doriath
(all the princes of the Teleri had silver hairs and pale eyes)...
So, all that nonsense about having colored characters in a ME movie is
ludicrous... Are we about to stop asking forgiveness for being white !??
Yes we are white, our ancestors commited heinous crimes for power and/or
richness ... and we still profit of it today... So what !?
Finrod
Stephen Allcroft
Willard White in the role. But it worked!
--
Stephen Allcroft
Godzilla
Stephen Allcroft (Ste...@congress.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: I'd never have thought of Wotan as black before I saw the Met's ring cycle with
I also never thought the Phantom in Phantom of the Opera as black until
Robert Guillaume took over for Michael Crawford, and you know what? It
worked, too.
Glenn Saunders
: I disagree. Simply because it draws a lot of elements from Medieval Europe does
: not imply that all the elements of Medieval Europe are there. There are a lot
: of differences (eg. the existance of magic and Elves, monotheism instead of
: the Trinity, etc.) and I see no reason to assume the same racial groups other
: than the dictates of geography and climate.
Middle Earth is STILL monotheistic. Eru is God. The Valar are angels.
Tolkien very cleverly avoided creating a pagan pantheon by setting up a
distant creator and several special subcreators. Praying to a Valar is
probably analogous to praying to a saint to Tolkien.
: Further, there is was a pretty wide mix of racial stocks in Medieval Europe.
: Remember all those Moors in 12th Century Spain?
Why is it that people seem to equate the arabic race with blacks
(africans)? Arabs are not black. Morgan Freeman played a Moor in Robin
Hood but he looks about as Moorish as Kostner. It must be the same
people who say egyptians were black. But egypt is a whole different
race. Nubia was black and if they later mixed, so be it.
Lipowicz
is a better actor than Sean Connery and would bring more wisdom and
dignity to the role.
It is pointless to wonder what color Tolkien chose for Gandalf. Even if
he explicitly said he was white there is no reason that an actor of the
stature of Freeman could not play him.
b...@pacific.net
>: > Why? He spelled out that other people were of one color or another
>: >so why not Gandalf? What makes you think Gandalf was white if it was not
>: >mentioned? He was not exactly "from" ME, so why couldn't he and the other
>: >Wizards be of another race ADN color?
>: Strange discussion.. Well, there's 'Gandalf the White', for a start.
>Well, it used to be Gandalf the Grey. Does that mean he was gray-skinned?
>What about Radagast the Brown? Does that mean he was brown-skinned?
>I think the title of "white" was meant to reflect his wisdom and position
>as head of the Maia, not his skin color.
>: And there's all those distinctly white pictures of Mr Mithrandir,
>: which our J never mentioned needed correction.
>Illustrators have interpretations, too, you know.
>: Besides, everyone's white in ME. Thus when they see them southerners
>: with the elephants, they notice with surprise that they're black?
>How do you know this? Seriously? The Haradrim were referred to as
>swarthy, and the men of Gondor were always talked about as darker than
>the Dunedain...
You know I would like to think that Middle Earth was one place that
would not have to be dealing with "racial issues". Don't we deal with
enough of this "crap" in life every day.
If Elves and Dwarves can live together in piece without making issues
of "race", can't we all take a lesson from that?
If it pleases you to believe Gandalf was black, red, yellow, white or
green with pink polka dots, then let him be that way for you. Leave
everyone else to their view and let it go.
It's a fantasy, for Pete's sake! Love it for what it is! Leave
"race", with its arguments, anger and tensions out of it!
Sorry for the "soap box", but the only reason RACE is an issue at all
is because we people LET it be one!
Tag:
"Oh, I knooow !" - Sybil Fawlty, Fawlty Towers
Urban Modig
After all Tolkien was an Englishman, born in SouthAfrica at the end of the last century, it is not likely to think that he was brought up with the ide of all men created equil.
EDGE
Ivan A Derzhanski
>1) Aragorn is of pure Dunedain blood (YES blood purity all u delicate
>Pol. Corct. ears), a direct heir of the Royal house of Numenor, with
>ancestors like Tar-Aldarion (tall, dark hairs, fair skin and grey
>eyes - typical nordic or irish look);
>2) Boromir was a pure dunedain too;
He was a pure _du'nadan_. There was only one of him. :-)
(But: Boromir and Aragorn were pure _du'nedain_.)
>So, all that nonsense about having colored characters in a ME movie is
>ludicrous... Are we about to stop asking forgiveness for being white !??
>Yes we are white, our ancestors commited heinous crimes for power and/or
>richness ... and we still profit of it today... So what !?
So what, indeed? It seems that some folks' PC agenda is preventing them
from realising that JRRT wrote in the epic tradition of the northwest of
Europe, and his world is inspired by, and to a high degree derived from,
ancient Celtic and Germanic mythology. There simply is no room for non-
Caucasoid people in that tradition. Note that JRRT speaks of *swarthy*,
not *black* people; darker-skinned Caucasoid maybe, but not belonging to
a different race altogether. Gandalf may have been tanned (long travels
and all that), but he certainly wasn't Negroid or Mongoloid.
And of course those heinous crimes are neither here nor there, because
the literary traditions in question predate them by several centuries.
How can relatively recent events alter the perception of the world
that the ancient Europeans had?
--
`I'll gie ye a purple jaiket [...] an mebbe I'll make ye prime meenister.'
Ivan A Derzhanski (i...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) (J Stuart, _Auld Testament Tales_)
* Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK
* Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Louis Epstein
: Morgan Freeman is an actor and he is fully capable of playing Gandalf. He
With makeup,you mean??
(Inaccurate casting is an abomination).
John Parker
: You know I would like to think that Middle Earth was one place that
: would not have to be dealing with "racial issues". Don't we deal with
: enough of this "crap" in life every day.
: It's a fantasy, for Pete's sake! Love it for what it is! Leave
: "race", with its arguments, anger and tensions out of it!
I second the motion. Everybody, I suggest
you create kill files for this sad thread
and forget this ever happened!
--
----
John C. Parker
jpa...@force.stwing.upenn.edu
http://force.stwing.upenn.edu:8001/~jparker/palpatine.html
ke...@library.brandeis.edu
film of LOTR should have a multiracial cast. I think this can be viewed
from at least two perspectives:
1) what would Tolkien have imagined the cast of the film looking like?
2) how could you cast the film, now that Tolkien is dead, not for "PC"
reasons, but to take advantage of the wide range of talented actors
(hopefully living!) of all nationalities and races?
It's interesting that in the songbook, _The Road Goes Ever On_, the author
of the music, Donald Swann, writes about playing "Nam'ari"e" for Tolkien who
talked about what he thought it sounded like and Swann adopted his tune from
the idea that Tolkien had. Unfortunately we can't ask the Professor if he
had Alec Guinness in mind for the eventual screen portrayal.
I admit it would never have occurred to *me* to cast Morgan Freeman in the
role of Gandalf, but I say hats off to the person who did think of it. He's
a brilliant actor, I think one of our finest, and if the second approach
were taken to filming the books I'd root for that choice. He has the
subtlety, strength and wit to pull it off. I think Sean Connery is too
earthy...
If any of you saw the Peter Brook version of the Mahabharata, that's the
sort of casting I could see working beautifully (of course, I realize many
people didn't think it worked at all).
TEHO,
Charlotte
P.S. I think trying to cast the movie is pretty silly, really, but the
conversation of late has been interesting. Now what I *really* enjoyed were
people's WORST casting ideas!
Lipowicz
relevant to the books. Morgan Freeman is our best character actor, and he
has the right age and image to be a great Gandalf. This choice has
nothing to do with PC. He is simply the best actor for the part. Connery
would make a mockery of the role, even though superficially he seems
perfect. Connery is just a bit out of his depth when playing someone with
great wisdom.
Glenn Saunders
: Yes, casting is silly, but it gives us something to discuss that is
: relevant to the books. Morgan Freeman is our best character actor, and he
: has the right age and image to be a great Gandalf. This choice has
: nothing to do with PC. He is simply the best actor for the part. Connery
There are a lot of great actors who could play Gandalf but if you saw them
you'd laugh at how inappropriate they LOOK. That is the burden that every
actor faces and it's unfortunate but that's just how films are. Films
have both a superficial and a deeper quality to them. If you forsake the
superficial you risk the suspension of disbelief of the audience.
Just check out all the bitching and moaning about casting decisions for
Batman Returns. People have visual expectations about their icons'
appearance!
Glenn Saunders
: There is something called "nontraditional casting." Basically
Which is best left for other genres. There is room for pushing the
envelope with the subraces. For instance, I think perhaps Japanese with
wigs might make good elves, and a native american may make a good
Aragorn, but for the majority of the humans in the story, they are WASPs.
Because Gandalf is supernatural people think they can make him any color
from purple to green. This is ludicrous. Remember that Gandalf's origin
in tolkien's writings was in The Hobbit and then LATER we learn of his
unearthly origin. At that time I believe Tolkien envisioned him as being
mysterious but conceivably native to the human population near The
Shire. In other words, WHITE.
@#$%!?!
is not used in casting. For example, Tinuviel would have to
be played by someone with black hair (or wig or dye) because
the colour of her hair is central to the story. But Beren could
be grey or blonde or curly or bald without disrupting the plot.
A stage or movie is not real. You can't really film in
Beleriand or Eriador. Nobody's seen a real hobbit for simply
ages. So a movie would have to fake it. So it's really a
question of obvious the fakery is. Neither Sutherland nor
Freeman nor Connery nor anyone would be the real Gandalf. It
would be someone in a role pretending (or faking) to be
Gandalf.
The colour of Gandalf's clothing is relevant. And the colour
of Galadriel's hair. A dwarf would have to have a beard.
--
In fearless youth when passions leapt, | smr...@netcom.com PO Box 1563
he sought the treasures silence kept | Cupertino, California
in chambers chilled where chanting stilled,| (xxx)xxx-xxxx 95015
where bleaching bones were bleakly kept. | intolerance kills
Lipowicz
multiracial casting is acceptable in art. It is done all the time in
opera. Using multiracial casting is a way of saying that Tolkien didn't
write just another book.
Ivan A Derzhanski
>I just want to make it clear that there shoulldnt be any doubts about
>Tolkiens opinion conserning whether Gandalf is white or some other colour !!.
So far, so good. But ...
>After all Tolkien was an Englishman, born in Sout#! rnews 510 singer.cent.gla.ac.uk
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Path: udcf.gla.ac.uk!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!leeds.ac.uk!news
From: cen...@leeds.ac.uk (M. China)
Subject: C/N Analyser?
Message-ID: <cen6mdc.1...@leeds.ac.uk>
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Organization: University of Leeds
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 08:33:20 +0100 (BST)
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Can anybody recommend a good Carbon and Nitrogen analyser? One that could
handle solid wastes would be best.
Thanks folks...
Mick.
#! rnews 2611 singer.cent.gla.ac.uk
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From: gb...@festival.ed.ac.uk (G Bell)
Subject: Re: Judge Dredd = Demolition Man II [SPOILERS]
References: <3t1an9$j...@indy-backup.indy.net> <3t2col$6...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>
Message-ID: <DB4rC...@festival.ed.ac.uk>
Organization: Edinburgh Univ
Finrod
lipo...@aol.com (Lipowicz) wrote:
Unfortunetaly, since the vast majority of the people here are aglophones,
they're missing a whole variety of actors outside their cultural sphere...
Im of french assent and i know (or think i know :)) just the right actor to
play Gandalf's role... His name is Jean-Pierre Marielle, and for those
movie freaks out there, he played the lord of Ste-Colombe in the movie
«Tous les matins du monde» by director Jean Corneaud (1990). Marielle can
be exactly what you're looking for in Gandalf: severe and yet humorous -
tall - iron-grey haired - bass voice and he is a GREAT actor...
So anglo-american friends, why don't you all start to look at foreign
movies ;) ?
Finrod
Stephen Allcroft
kri...@primenet.com "Glenn Saunders" writes:
> Why is it that people seem to equate the arabic race with blacks
> (africans)? Arabs are not black. Morgan Freeman played a Moor in Robin
> Hood but he looks about as Moorish as Kostner.
In medaeval English "moor" and "black" were synoymous, meaning an African.
Slavery and squeamishness later altered "moor" in the 19th century, most
Shakespeare scholars agree that Othello was meant to be an African.
BTW the medaeval terms for an Arab were "turk" or "saracen".
If you expect anything to be correct in a Costner film you deserve to have
shares in "Waterworld".
--
Stephen Allcroft
Tom Hatry
> Louis Epstein wrote:
>
> >It would look stupid to have to spell out that Gandalf was white.
>
> avian style), but I don't see it that way. As far as I can glean, and I can't
> offer any evidence for this right now, the Dunlendings, many of the Hobbits,
> and quite a lot of the Eldar and Numenoredain were dark, like Southern
> Europeans or even North Africans. Only one house of the Eldar was lightly
> pigmented (Finarfin's, I think) and similarly only one house of Men (House of
> Hador?) . I have always thought of them as being white and blond, and the rest
> going through tones of tan and olive and golden to a fairly dark brown. For
> instance, the Rohirrim were blond-haired whiteys whereas the Gondoreans I have
> always seen as olive-skinned, like Sicilians.
Okay, here goes nothing........ The men of the house of Beor were fair skinned with dark
hair and grey/blue eyes. Most of the Beorians who went to Numenor settled in the Andustar. The
lords of Andunie (who Aragorn and all of the Dunadan kings in M-E were descended from) were also
the lords of the Andustar. The lords of Andunie and their people were (for the most part) members
of the Elendilli or Faithful. Not all Numenoreans were dark-haired with grey eyes some were blond,
some had green, brown or hazel eyes, but as I have explained the faithful were dark-haired,
fair-skinned and had grey or pale blue eyes. But it is not too difficult to assume that Numenoreans
living in Numenor were white. It was the faithful who settled Gondor and Arnor. If you read
ROTK you will find that some men of Gondor were short and swarthy, they were descended from
men already living in Gondor when the Dunedain arrived.
Merry almost mistakes Denethor's messengers for Boromir. Boromir was Dunadan, and
had the characteristic Dunadan traits, as did Aragorn (Aragorn's appearance is mentioned in "At the
sign of the Prancing Pony"). Basically all that I am trying to say is that the Gondorian aristoracy
and people who lived in the cities (Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth etc.) were fair skinned with dark hair
and pale eyes. (Incidentally this is how most of the Noldor looked). The Dunedain of Arnor
(Rangers) also looked like this. The men of Lossarnach, Lebbenin, Anfalas, Morthond and Pinnath
Gellin were shorter and darker skinned (maybe they looked "Sicilian", and if that's what you meant
this is a useless post.
Based on this findind actors for LOTR would be very difficult
> Gandalf was a Maia in human form; presumably he would have looked like one of
> the races common to Endor at the time, as no-one describes him as looking
> alien; also, no-one refers to what racial stock he resembles. I have always
> imagined Gandalf with a dark, ruddy complexion, most probably like a Western
> European who has spent a lot of time out in the sun.
>
No problem here.
J.R. Stoner
;Neither Sutherland nor Freeman nor Connery nor anyone would be the real
;Gandalf. It would be someone in a role pretending (or faking) to be
;Gandalf.
Um, perhaps Nichol Williamson(sp?) - it worked once before.
--
.J.R. Stoner, Ferroequinologist - asg...@isi.com - asg...@netcom.com
Louis Epstein
: Tolkien did more than write a screenplay. His book is art. And
: multiracial casting is acceptable in art. It is done all the time in
: opera. Using multiracial casting is a way of saying that Tolkien didn't
: write just another book.
NO.
Multiracial casting is only justifiable where there are multiracial
characters.Where a character has definition,casting must be faithful
to that definition.
(As far as I am concerned,Tolkien is too good to dramatize at all).
Bancroft Gracey
In article <3svpn3$g...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Lipowicz (lipo...@aol.com) writes:
>Morgan Freeman is an actor and he is fully capable of playing Gandalf.
Only with substantial makeup.
> He
>is a better actor than Sean Connery and would bring more wisdom and
>dignity to the role.
Only if you confuse Connery with his Bond or other populist movies.
He is one of the finest actors alive, and would probably be a
'theatrical knight' if he appeared more on stage and less on film.
>It is pointless to wonder what color Tolkien chose for Gandalf.
Yes, because he's white. Otherwise JRRT would have said so in
Gandalf's first appearance in 'The Hobbit'. Might not be true if the
book had been written in the US in this decade, but was certainly
true in England in the 30's.
> Even if
>he explicitly said he was white there is no reason that an actor of the
>stature of Freeman could not play him.
Following that argument, I vote for Honor Blackman... :-)
It isn't the actor's "stature" that is important, but whether he
could do the job. Freeman couldn't play *any* of the major roles
in a Middle-Earth production, irrespective of how good an actor he
is.
To play Gandalf, you need a character actor who is white, male,
probably English or Welsh (or capable of playing same - which lets
out most Americans), and capable of playing an older part (so
probably not Kenneth Branagh!). And he must be able to glower and
shout convincingly. I don't think G. is said to be exceptionally
tall or short, or particularly fat, so we're looking for average
build (within fairly broad limits).
A few suggestions, in no particular order:
Robert Hardy (Siegfried, All Creatures Great & Small (tv version))
Leo McKern (Rumpole, Rumpole of the Bailey)
John Thaw (Morse, Inspector Morse; Regan, The Sweeney)
Gareth Thomas (Blake, Blake's 7)
Philip Madoc (most recently the defence barrister in the Jordache
trial, the soap Brookside)
Sylvester McCoy (The Doctor (7th incarnation), Dr Who)
Tom Baker (The Doctor (4th incarnation), Dr Who)
Russ Abbot (English comedian & actor)
and, last but not least,
Sean Connery.
There's probably a few hundred more that I've missed.
However, might I suggest that the casting of The Lord of the Rings
would depend upon Frodo & Aragorn? And for The Hobbit, Bilbo and
Thorin would need to be cast first?
-bpg-
Glenn Saunders
: Tolkien did more than write a screenplay. His book is art. And
: multiracial casting is acceptable in art. It is done all the time in
: opera. Using multiracial casting is a way of saying that Tolkien didn't
: write just another book.
Opera and theater in general is not taken as literally as film is and is
by its own nature more abstract. A play with only a couple chairs and no
backdrops can be a good play. A film with only a couple chairs and no
backdrop with lightstands showing would be considered chintzy.
The irony is that although people go to movies for fantasy, they want it
packaged in a "realistic" way, and that includes plausible rather than
experimental casting decisions.
Roland Kunkel
>I have no idea why people seem to think JEJ has a patent on the
>booming voice. A black Gandalf would just look too alien.
I agree that James Earl Jones doesn't have a patent on booming
voice. But I would point out that God did bestow on him one of the
best in the world, while giving you a sorely deficeint imagination,
evidenced by your inability to picture a black Gandalf.
This is not meant to be a flame...
It is only a request to try and stretch you mind ever so little.
Roland
@#$%!?!
: backdrop with lightstands showing would be considered chintzy.
Obviously someone who has never seen Dr Who.
How about Sylvester McCoy as Gandalf?
Scott Bayes
--
Scott Bayes
Hewlett-Packard Company
MXD, Loveland CO
ba...@hpisla.lvld.hp.com
(970) 679-3799
All opinions are my own and do not reflect an official position of HP.
"Nostalgia is not what it used to be"
Louis Epstein
In some directions stretching is appropriate and in others not.
It is clear that Gandalf is not intended to be black.
(Someone else suggested JEJ for Treebeard...that has potential).
Andrew Solovay
Ivan A Derzhanski <i...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>So what, indeed? It seems that some folks' PC agenda is preventing them
>from realising that JRRT wrote in the epic tradition of the northwest of
>Europe, and his world is inspired by, and to a high degree derived from,
>ancient Celtic and Germanic mythology. There simply is no room for non-
>Caucasoid people in that tradition. Note that JRRT speaks of *swarthy*,
>not *black* people; darker-skinned Caucasoid maybe, but not belonging to
>a different race altogether. Gandalf may have been tanned (long travels
>and all that), but he certainly wasn't Negroid or Mongoloid.
One exception: The soldiers from Harad (that Sam & Frodo see fighting
with Faramir's guerillas) were African-style blacks. But their
appearance, and color, was exceptional to Sam-- which it wouldn't have
been if, e.g., Gandalf had been black.
OTOH, if they made a LOTR movie (which I'm not really in favor of),
they would perforce have to take great liberties with the text. Making
Gandalf black would be a fairly minor one. (I suppose they could
rename him "Swartzalf"...)
--Andrew Solovay <sol...@netcom.com>
"I said I was director of photography, to which [Queen Elizabeth]
replied, `Oh, how terribly interesting. Actually, I have a
brother-in-law who is a photographer.' I replied, `Oh, how terribly
coincidental. I have a brother-in-law who's a queen.' She moved on
without saying another word."
--- Dean Semler, cinematographer for "Dances With Wolves"
Scott Davis
: How about Sir John Gielgud as Gandalf? (Or did he die when Alec Guiness did :-?
: ba...@hpisla.lvld.hp.com
: (970) 679-3799
--
Is it absolutely necessary that Gandalf be an Englishman? I always
pictured him as being slightly Oriental. (The fireworks and everything...)
Ivan A Derzhanski
(Roland Kunkel) writes:
[to Louis Epstein]
>I agree that James Earl Jones doesn't have a patent on booming
>voice. But I would point out that God did bestow on him one of the
>best in the world, while giving you a sorely deficeint imagination,
>evidenced by your inability to picture a black Gandalf.
I dare say I'd rather have an imagination that you might call `sorely
deficeint' [sic] than one which would be open to all manner of absurd
notions. Sure, it is possible to picture a black Gandalf, just as it
is possible to picture a woman Gandalf, or a Gandalf played by a tame
monkey or dog rather than a human actor. Are you talking of making a
real _LotR_ film?
>It is only a request to try and stretch you mind ever so little.
Indeed. Mental institutions are full of stretched minds.
--
"`Na! na!" said the king, "ye're no gettin away wi it that easy."'
@#$%!?!
would be perfectly happy having American or Canadian actors rather
than English.
: notions. Sure, it is possible to picture a black Gandalf, just as it
: is possible to picture a woman Gandalf, or a Gandalf played by a tame
: monkey or dog rather than a human actor. Are you talking of making a
If the stories I heard in school were true, Lady MacBeth and Juliett
were originally played by men--the story was at that time there were
no women actors. If you can find a monkey or dog capable of [simulating]
human speech with the necessary emotional range--fine.
: >It is only a request to try and stretch you mind ever so little.
: Indeed. Mental institutions are full of stretched minds.
I don't think you really know what goes on in psychiatric wards.
--
In fearless youth when fervours leapt, | smr...@netcom.com PO Box 1563
he sought the treasures silence kept | Cupertino, California
in chambers chilled where chanting stilled,| (xxx)xxx-xxxx 95015
where bleaching bones were bleakly kept. | I don't use no smileys
Brian E. Clark
> Sure, it is possible to picture a black Gandalf, just as it
> is possible to picture a woman Gandalf, or a Gandalf played by a tame
> monkey or dog rather than a human actor.
You're saying that having a man with black skin as Gandalf is as absurd
as having a dog play Gandalf? Tolkien certainly described Gandalf as
looking human, so the pooch would have to practice method acting for a
while to master the walk, if nothing else. But Tolkien didn't mention the
color of Gandalf's skin, not even once, not even by implication. Your
dismay at the suggestion of Morgan Freeman as Gandalf springs from your
*own* preconceptions of the world, not from Tolkien's descriptions of
Middle Earth.
When a young Japanese boy reads LotR in his own language, do you really
think he pictures Gandalf as John Major with a beard?
-brian
--
"Saints fly only in the eyes of their disciples." - Hindu proverb
Bill Chesky - Contractor (Guy Miller)
|> In article <3temro$b...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> rku...@ix.netcom.com
|> (Roland Kunkel) writes:
|> [to Louis Epstein]
|> >I agree that James Earl Jones doesn't have a patent on booming
|> >voice. But I would point out that God did bestow on him one of the
|> >best in the world, while giving you a sorely deficeint imagination,
|> >evidenced by your inability to picture a black Gandalf.
|>
|> I dare say I'd rather have an imagination that you might call `sorely
|> deficeint' [sic] than one which would be open to all manner of absurd
|> is possible to picture a woman Gandalf, or a Gandalf played by a tame
|>
|> >It is only a request to try and stretch you mind ever so little.
|>
|> Indeed. Mental institutions are full of stretched minds.
|>
|> "`Na! na!" said the king, "ye're no gettin away wi it that easy."'
|> Ivan A Derzhanski (i...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) (J Stuart, _Auld Testament Tales_)
|> * Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK
|> * Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Right on, Ivan. Obviously if a movie were ever made there would be no way
to please everybody. But stuff like this really amazes me. It just seems
to me that LotR is a classic and the best approach would be a very conservative
one that is as close to Tolkien's original intent as possible. Of course we
don't always know what that is but in this case I think there are enough clues
to suggest beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt that Tolkien did not think
of Gandalf as black. I find it hard to believe any reasonable person would
dispute this.
I also find the suggestion that anybody who objects to a black actor playing
Gandalf is unimaginative, narrow-minded in the extreme. Like Ivan says it's
easy to imagine anything you want. I can imagine a Gandalf with a 3rd bloody,
puss-filled eye in the middle of his forehead if I work at it long enough.
And Tolkien never said he didn't have one so would that be an acceptable portrayal? I think not. And no I'm not being racist. I think Morgan Freeman
and James Earl Jones are great actors. But for one of them to play Gandalf
would come across as stilted and forced and annoyingly-PC. And it would stand
out like a sore thumb and detract from most viewer's (IMHO) enjoyment.
I hope like hell if a movie is ever made whoever makes it doesn't cave to
this type of pandering.
Bill
Ken King
just my cultural bias. I cannot however as someone suggested earlier
every picture James Earl Jones in the role. Somehow I cannot
dissociate Darth Vader's voice with Gandalf. It just doesn't work for
me.
Ken King
AT&T Global Information Solutions - Worldwide Information Systems
>==========Brian E. Clark, 7/7/95==========
>
>Ivan A Derzhanski (i...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) wrote:
>
>> Sure, it is possible to picture a black Gandalf, just as it
>> is possible to picture a woman Gandalf, or a Gandalf played by a tame
>> monkey or dog rather than a human actor.
>
Andrew Fenton
>Robert Hardy (Siegfried, All Creatures Great & Small (tv version))
Too fat
>Leo McKern (Rumpole, Rumpole of the Bailey)
Way too fat
>John Thaw (Morse, Inspector Morse; Regan, The Sweeney)
Too frail now
>Philip Madoc (most recently the defence barrister in the Jordache
>trial, the soap Brookside)
He was in Brookside
>and, last but not least,
>Sean Connery.
Classic! He would have to play someone in a LOTR movie. He has just
the right charisma
>There's probably a few hundred more that I've missed.
>However, might I suggest that the casting of The Lord of the Rings
>would depend upon Frodo & Aragorn? And for The Hobbit, Bilbo and
>Thorin would need to be cast first?
I think the Hobbit is just too childish to be made into a mainstream
movie. As for the hobbits in a LOTR movie, someone suggested using
computer graphics to cut an actor down to the right size. If this was
done I think a well-known actor would be inappropriate. For example,
just imagine a pint-sized Kevin Costner.
!Ping! Idea strikes me!
For a pint-sized hobbit, how about Tom Cruise?
Andrew Fenton, Edinburgh
Ivan A Derzhanski
>When I read LotR, all the characters speak American English. So I
>would be perfectly happy having American or Canadian actors rather
>than English.
So should everyone. BrE and AmE are equally distant from the Westron.
>: Sure, it is possible to picture a black Gandalf, just as it
>: is possible to picture a woman Gandalf, or a Gandalf played
>: by a tame monkey or dog rather than a human actor.
>
>If the stories I heard in school were true, Lady MacBeth and Juliett
>were originally played by men--the story was at that time there were
>no women actors.
That's right. There is Shakespearean theatre, and classical Greek
theatre, and classical Chinese theatre, and many other traditions,
all of which have their own ideas on who can play whom and what an
actor is expected to look like on stage. In a modern European (or
North American, I suppose) Western film or theatre show I'd expect
the actors to look like the characters, which is achieved by means
of make-up and by choosing actors of the appropriate sex, race and
physique in the first place. In ancient Greece none of that would
matter; but we're not there.
>If you can find a monkey or dog capable of [simulating]
>human speech with the necessary emotional range--fine.
More likely you'll have to cut out all speech and set the entire show
as a pantomime. There have been shows like that ... though of course
much shorter ones.
Louis Epstein
: Ivan A Derzhanski (i...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) wrote:
: > Sure, it is possible to picture a black Gandalf, just as it
: > is possible to picture a woman Gandalf, or a Gandalf played by a tame
: > monkey or dog rather than a human actor.
: You're saying that having a man with black skin as Gandalf is as absurd
: as having a dog play Gandalf? Tolkien certainly described Gandalf as
: looking human, so the pooch would have to practice method acting for a
: while to master the walk, if nothing else. But Tolkien didn't mention the
: color of Gandalf's skin, not even once, not even by implication.
The implication is *most certainly* there,deny it though you may.
: Your dismay at the suggestion of Morgan Freeman as Gandalf springs from your
Bill Stanford
ke...@library.brandeis.edu wrote:
> If any of you saw the Peter Brook version of the Mahabharata, that's the
> sort of casting I could see working beautifully (of course, I realize many
> people didn't think it worked at all).
Yes, isn't this interesting, I agree completely, something to do with the
way unity of time and place is effected, and elevated into a kind of
universal, by such casting. It's also interesting that in another thread
here recently a person with an Indian cultural background could take JRR
with complete seriousness, as wholly and coherently mythological (I hope
I'm paraphrasing accurately;-)
JRR's work, for some of us at least, has the effect that Vyassa promises at
the beginning of the Brook Mahabharata: "When it's finished you'll be a
different person..."
Bill Stanford
-------------
Ivan A Derzhanski
>Tolkien didn't mention the color of Gandalf's skin, not even once,
>not even by implication.
He did. Many times, and in two different ways. First, he based his
literary creation on the epic tradition of the northwest of Europe,
that is, on Germanic (Norse, for the most part) and Celtic (Welsh
and Irish) mythology. Second, he made it clear that his aim was to
create a mythology for England, and he insisted that the presence of
England be clearly felt, even in translation.
Now it is not my impression that the ancient tales of the Norsemen, or
any other myths of that part of Europe, go out of their way to specify
the skin colour of all Men mentioned therein. Do you think that means
that the minstrels had no idea what colour their characters' skin was?
I don't think so. More likely it was taken for granted that everyone
belonged to the same race as the people who had created the stories.
>Your dismay at the suggestion of Morgan Freeman as Gandalf springs
>from your *own* preconceptions of the world, not from Tolkien's
>descriptions of Middle Earth.
See above.
My preconceptions of the world come with a kind of contextual sensitivity.
When a newspaper article about something that happened last week in NYC
mentions a man, I don't make any assumptions about his skin colour. But if
I'm reading a Bushman folk tale, I assume that everyone in it is black.
Similarly, I assume that everyone in the _Popol Vuh_ is red and everyone
in the _Nibelungenlied_ is white. Middle-earth is European mythology.
Enough said.
>When a young Japanese boy reads LotR in his own language, do you
>really think he pictures Gandalf as John Major with a beard?
Of course. When I was a young boy and read Japanese tales in
translation, I never pictured Urashima Taro= and the other characters
as anything other than Japanese. Why shouldn't a Japanese boy do the
same thing, and picture the characters in a European tale as European?
If he does not, then that's due to his ignorance, and is not something
that a film producer ought to encourage.
Brian E. Clark
> Of course we don't always know what that is but in this case I think
> there are enough clues to suggest beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt
> that Tolkien did not think of Gandalf as black. I find it hard to
> believe any reasonable person would dispute this.
'Tis a red herring, Bill. I don't recall anyone trying trying to claim that
Tolkien pictured Gandalf with dark skin.
> I also find the suggestion that anybody who objects to a black actor
> playing Gandalf is unimaginative, narrow-minded in the extreme.
Most of the objections have been of the type you mentioned above, wherein
you argue that JRRT himself probably imagined a Caucasian Gandalf. You
act as if this took primacy over all else, and that assumption is the pool
from which these drafts of accusation -- unimaginative, narrow-minded,
and so forth -- are presumably coming. Put another way, so far the reasons
presented for excluding a non-white actor from playing Gandalf have been
rather weak, amounting to little more than personal preference. Neither
Gandalf nor any other of Tolkien's characters echo in readers' minds in
exactly the manner Tolkien imagined them.
> Like Ivan says it'seasy to imagine anything you want. I can imagine a
> Gandalf with a 3rd bloody, puss-filled eye in the middle of his
> forehead if I work at it long enough.
That would be absurd. A dripping third eye could make a great deal of
difference. Once again, what it is about black skin that would equal such
a difference?
> And Tolkien never said he didn't have one so would that be an
> acceptable portrayal? I think not.
I hope no one is so foolish as to think you've made a valid comparison.
What you left out turns out to the most important question, the *only*
important question: WHY does a black Gandalf equal a disfigured Gandalf?
WHY does a black Gandalf change the character or detract from the story?
> And no I'm not being racist.
Comparing black skin with a deformed mutation (an extra, oozing eye)
certainly sounds like borderline racism, as does an earlier poster's
equating a black Gandalf with a canine Gandalf. For my part, I attribute
the comparisons to sloppy wording, not racism, but I know for fact that
a few readers have jumped to the other conclusion.
> I think Morgan Freeman and James Earl Jones are great actors. But for
> one of them to play Gandalf would come across as stilted and forced and
> annoyingly-PC.
Ah, the clarion call of the weak interlocutor: "It's PC." If you cannot
attack a position using substantive argument, attack with labels, eh? :)
This entire discussion has nothing to do with political correctness. That
you and others charge PC sensibility as the source of the debate
illustrates how limited your conception of this matter really is. I
originally mentioned Freeman for Gandalf because of his acting talents
and his ability to create believeable characters. I had no ulterior goal of
mentioning black actors or actresses, just because they were black.
[FWIW, I think the charges of racism against you and Ivan are equally
suspect, if the current thread is the source of the charges. It's become
all too easy in some of these discussions to dismiss people as being
racist or being politically correct.]
> And it would stand out like a sore thumb and detract from most viewer's
> (IMHO) enjoyment.
It would stand out *for those viewers who thought skin color is more
important than artistry or ability*. Most viewers, in my own
occassinaly humble opinion, would be mildly surprised, but not robbed of
enjoyment.
> I hope like hell if a movie is ever made whoever makes it doesn't cave to
> this type of pandering.
And we should pander to an arbitrary need to separate black skin from
white instead? I think much of this debate can be phrased in a few
questions:
1) Did Tolkien have a definite skin color in mind when he created
Gandalf?
2) Was this skin color important to Tolkien's conception of Gandalf?
Would Tolkien have objected to Morgan Freeman's playing Olorin?
3) If the answer to question two is yes, are Tolkien's [inferred]
reasons strong enough? I.e., do the reasons go beyond some
cultural inability to picture non-whites as wise and powerful?
4) Must a film version of LotR be authentic not only to what Tolkien
wrote, but also to what we infer about his world?
5) Does the color of Gandalf's skin make any difference to potential
viewers of the film? The audience doesn't care if Gandalf wore size
11 or size 12 boots. Will they care about his skin color?
Tommy Andreassen
I don't think any actor should play
Gandalf or anyone else in Tolkiens books.
If they were to make a LoTR movie
with real people in it I think
that the voices and persons should
be impossible to recognize.
Maybe a combination of 3D computer
animation(like jurassic park),
ordinary animation and masked people.
Tommy A.
@#$%!?!
Is there someone in LotR without eyebrows for her to portray?
--
In fearless youth when fervour leapt, | smr...@netcom.com PO Box 1563
Louis Epstein
: I don't think any actor should play
I'd say COMPLETE computer generation of photorealistic images,which is
not yet within our technology,but soon...
John Osborne
Clark) writes:
>
[snip]
> And we should pander to an arbitrary need to separate black skin from
> white instead?
Sorry to disillusion you, but until fairly recently black and white skins
were separated geographically and this was not arbitrary.
> I think much of this debate can be phrased in a few
> questions:
>
> 1) Did Tolkien have a definite skin color in mind when he created
> Gandalf?
Almost certainly; a. JRRT's visualization of Gandalf was taken from a
picture postcard of a mountain-spirit which he saw (the postcard that is :)
while on a walking holiday in Switzerland(?) (Carpenter's Biography,
currently mislaid.). It is unlikely that the Swiss would envisage a
black-skinned elemental. b. The entire mythos of ME is intended to mirror
NW Europe, to which dark skinned folk are not indigenous.
>
> 2) Was this skin color important to Tolkien's conception of Gandalf?
> Would Tolkien have objected to Morgan Freeman's playing Olorin?
Considering the amount of attention paid to fine detail within LOTR (names,
languages, relationships between both etc..) I think it most likely that
JRRT _would_ object to MF playing Gandalf; not because he didn't like
blacks, but because, in this case, it would not be _correct_.
>
> 3) If the answer to question two is yes, are Tolkien's [inferred]
> reasons strong enough? I.e., do the reasons go beyond some
> cultural inability to picture non-whites as wise and powerful?
The question is irrelevant. Part of JRRT's intention in constructing ME was
to recreate a cultural / mythological history for England (and the english
language), which he felt had been largely lost after 1066. If LOTR had been
set in the tropical regions of ME and the main characters were obviously
white, then I think that the prejudices behind this should be open to
question. However, the action takes place exclusively in the northern
temperate zone, so see reply to (2) above. IMHO, Morgan Freeman playing
Gandalf would be as ridiculous as Sean Connery playing King Cetawayo in a
remake of 'Zulu'.
>
> 4) Must a film version of LotR be authentic not only to what Tolkien
> wrote, but also to what we infer about his world?
Emphatically _YES_! To a general audience with little or no knowledge of
JRRT-lore it would matter little, as it would be 'just another movie'.
Would anyone on this ng (or others with an interest in ME) seriously
consider it as such? I think not!
>
> 5) Does the color of Gandalf's skin make any difference to potential
> viewers of the film? The audience doesn't care if Gandalf wore size
> 11 or size 12 boots. Will they care about his skin color?
The audience cared about such a minor point as The One Ring having a white
stone in the Rankin-Bass animation. Until a few days ago there was quite a
heated discussion on this ng about whether elves had pointed ears.
Would it be okay if Fangorn were played by a Banyan? What the hell, it's a
tree! Sorry Brian, but I care enough about Tolkien's work to want to see a
film of it done _right_ or not at all.
Regards
John O
--
John Osborne jo...@kami.demon.co.uk
Alle kunst is umsonst wenn ein Engel in das zundloch prunst
Joao Mendes
>banc...@shoebox.win-uk.net (Bancroft Gracey) wrote:
>>Sean Connery.
>Classic! He would have to play someone in a LOTR movie. He has just
>the right charisma
I'd love to see him play Denethor, or perhaps even Theoden. I think he'd be
kind of wasted as Gandalf, especially as Gandalf the White.
A better Gandalf might be... Ok, I can't think of a good Gandalf. I can't think
of an actor who is at once old enough, good enough to provide the depth of
character of Gandalf the Grey, or shallow enough to provide for a believable
Gandalf the White.
(Somebody's gonna kill me for this, I know it... :| )
>just imagine a pint-sized Kevin Costner.
Not a good hobbit, but probably a good Boromir. When Costner dies, most people
will get as much of a shock as I did when Boromir died. I must have reread that
one single page some twenty times, I couldn't believe it!
>!Ping! Idea strikes me!
>
>For a pint-sized hobbit, how about Tom Cruise?
On which movie or tv-show is it that someone says: "Thou Lookest Ridiculous"?
(I think it's a Cheers eppisode)
Tom Cruise could be a good... nahhh.
Well, if you really want him in the movie, he'd be a good Glorfindel, or a
possible Faramir, but that's about it.
Now for the interesting questions. What about female casting? Who do _you_ see
as a good Galadriel/Arwen/Eowyn?
Joao Mendes
Smiley when you post that, @stranger...
Brian E. Clark
[...]
> IMHO, Morgan Freeman playing Gandalf would be as ridiculous as Sean
> Connery playing King Cetawayo in a remake of 'Zulu'.
If Connery had the ability to play the role (though I don't think he
could), and if skin color made no difference to the role, then there's
no reason that he should be dismissed without his chance to read for the
part. ("I'll attack the British right after I've had my haggis.") But of
course, by intent or accident you chose a role for which skin color *is*
important, so your comparison is inapt.
The only important question in this argument is why black skin on Gandalf
makes a difference to the role. The most common answer offerred thus far is
the *inference* (almost surely a valid one) that Tolkien pictured a white
Gandalf. Does this matter influence the story? Apparently not. Does it
play a crucial symbolic role? No. Whence, then, the problem? It seems to
spring from a desire to cross every 't' as we think Tolkien crossed it.
Like you, I desire an authentic-looking LotR movie. However, I cannot
carry pedantry so far as to exclude qualified human beings from roles
based on something that apparently (as he never brought it up) mattered
nothing at all to the creator of Middle Earth.
[...]
> > 5) Does the color of Gandalf's skin make any difference to potential
> > viewers of the film? The audience doesn't care if Gandalf wore size
> > 11 or size 12 boots. Will they care about his skin color?
> The audience cared about such a minor point as The One Ring having a
> white stone in the Rankin-Bass animation. Until a few days ago there
> was quite a heated discussion on this ng about whether elves had
> pointed ears.
<Grin> Though you shouldn't have to be reminded yet again: the LotR
*specifically* describes the Ring; it does not describe Gandalf's
color, so once again you've made an invalid comparison.
> Would it be okay if Fangorn were played by a Banyan? What the hell,
> it's a tree!
If you could get a Banyan to act, I doubt you'd hear many complaints. :)
> Sorry Brian, but I care enough about Tolkien's work to
> want to see a film of it done _right_ or not at all.
I think a movie with MF as Gandalf would be just as "right" as a movie
that put a "whites only" sign on the casting door for the Gandalf
audition. What you really mean is, "I want a LotR movie done so that it
echoes my own view of Middle Earth and its inhabitants." You imply that
to do otherwise would bruise Tolkien's intent, but that's just begging
the question. For me, casting the best actor for the part of Gandalf is
one good way to make the move "right."
We don't perform Shakespeare's works as he envisaged them -- and he wrote
material specifically designed to be staged. Somehow, though, the
majesty in his plays survives. I suppose there are Shakespearean purists
who tear out their hair that the plays aren't staged in the "right" way,
but what of it? A great work spans time and culture. I believe LotR is
great enough to stand the "ravage" of having a quality actor -- whose
skin is darker than Tolkien probably imagined Gandalf's to be -- tackle a
central role.
Besides, where are we supposed to find gobs of pudgy children, who are also
talented enough to perform adult roles, to play the Hobbits in the Shire
sequences? ;-)
Bill Chesky - Contractor (Guy Miller)
|> Bill Chesky - Contractor (Guy Miller) (wch...@austin.wireline.slb.com) wrote:
|>
|> > Of course we don't always know what that is but in this case I think
|> > there are enough clues to suggest beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt
|> > that Tolkien did not think of Gandalf as black. I find it hard to
|> > believe any reasonable person would dispute this.
|>
|> 'Tis a red herring, Bill. I don't recall anyone trying trying to claim that
|> Tolkien pictured Gandalf with dark skin.
Well, I didn't save all the earlier posts but I could have sworn I saw people
claiming that he *might* have. At the very least people seem to be claiming
that since Tolkien didn't explicitly include a sentence in the story that
said "Gandalf had white skin..." that therefore any casting is valid. I
completely disagree w/ this. And before I get slammed for using a word like
'valid' let me just say that I freely admit that my version of valid is
certainly different than everybody else's. We've all got our own subjective
opinions on this topic. I'm just presenting what I think would be the best
treatment of a movie based on LotR. So a standing IMHO applies to all of the
following:
|> > I also find the suggestion that anybody who objects to a black actor
|> > playing Gandalf is unimaginative, narrow-minded in the extreme.
|>
|> Most of the objections have been of the type you mentioned above, wherein
|> you argue that JRRT himself probably imagined a Caucasian Gandalf. You
|> act as if this took primacy over all else, and that assumption is the pool
As best as we are able to determine what Tolkien's original intent was, yes, I
do think that should take primacy over all else. Tolkien took great pains to
create a complete and consistent mythology. It was his life's work and it was
masterfully done and I think it should be honored in any movie based on his
work.
His published works as well as his letters provide a treasure trove of insight
into what his intent was -- to create an epic mythology that was specifically
English in origin. He states that Middle-Earth is Northern Europe in some
mythical past. The flavor and style of the mythology is Northern European. His
invented names and languages borrow from Northern European legends and
languages, etc., etc. etc. The story is told through the eyes of the hobbits of
the Shire (England) as they travel through strange new lands and meet strange
new people and creatures. They take note of the flowing golden hair of the
Rohirrim, the squat stature of the Pukel men, the fair skin of Galadriel and the
dark skin of the Haradrim. This is no accident. Tolkien left very little to
chance and that's half the beauty of his works for me (and I think for a lot of
other fans judging from many of the posts in this group) -- the sheer beauty of
a masterfully crafted work of art that somebody put their heart and soul into.
To have the hobbits (who are culturally distrustful of strange or
strange-looking foreigners to begin with) team up w/ a dark skinned wizard and
merrily trek around Middle-Earth w/ him w/o ever once giving a second thought to
his dark skin -- well, that's just inconsistent and absurd and flies in the face
of the entire ambience that Tolkien was trying to create.
|> from which these drafts of accusation -- unimaginative, narrow-minded,
|> and so forth -- are presumably coming.
I disagree. How do you get 'unimaginative' out of somebody wanting to respect
Tolkien's artistry? You may not agree w/ the importance of that concern but it
doesn't have anything to do w/ imagination or lack thereof. Calling that
unimaginative just comes across as a mindless, knee-jerk, ad hominem attack.
|> Neither
|> Gandalf nor any other of Tolkien's characters echo in readers' minds in
|> exactly the manner Tolkien imagined them.
Agreed. And I said as much in my post as well. But certainly you are not
claiming that any choice would be valid are you? Surely, there are choices for
the part that would rub you the wrong way aren't there? How 'bout Tom Cruise as
Gandalf? ;)
|>
|> > Like Ivan says it'seasy to imagine anything you want. I can imagine a
|> > Gandalf with a 3rd bloody, puss-filled eye in the middle of his
|> > forehead if I work at it long enough.
|>
|> That would be absurd. A dripping third eye could make a great deal of
|> difference. Once again, what it is about black skin that would equal such
|> a difference?
Firstly I don't think both choices are equally as bad. Obviously mine is more
absurd. I was just trying demonstrate w/ an extreme example that all choices
are not equally valid as long as Tolkien didn't say otherwise. As for why I
think a black Gandalf would be absurd, I have given my reasons above. In a
nutshell it would clash drastically with the tone and flavor of the book. And
also, though I admit I can't say for sure, I think it would clash with the
majority of fans' imaginings of what Gandalf looked like.
Just out of curiosity why do you belittle this concern? Have you seen the the
Rankin-Bass productions or the Bakshi movie? Were there no depictions that
rubbed you the wrong way? If so, didn't that detract from your enjoyment? It
certainly did mine. Sorry but that type of thing would make or break a film
version of LotR for most fans. I'm not saying anything about Morgan Freeman or
any other black actor. I think MF is awesome! In fact, I'd go so far as to say
he'd probably do a pretty damn good Gandalf if it were just his acting that
mattered. You're right he's got the voice and stature and the wisened look,
etc. But unfortunately his race/skin color does not mesh w/ the story. It
would be like casting Charleton Heston as Yamamoto in Tora! Tora! Tora!.
|>
|> > And Tolkien never said he didn't have one so would that be an
|> > acceptable portrayal? I think not.
|>
|> I hope no one is so foolish as to think you've made a valid comparison.
|> What you left out turns out to the most important question, the *only*
|> important question: WHY does a black Gandalf equal a disfigured Gandalf?
Again, I was *not* *equating* the two!
|> > And no I'm not being racist.
|>
|> Comparing black skin with a deformed mutation (an extra, oozing eye)
|> certainly sounds like borderline racism, as does an earlier poster's
|> equating a black Gandalf with a canine Gandalf. For my part, I attribute
|> the comparisons to sloppy wording, not racism, but I know for fact that
|> a few readers have jumped to the other conclusion.
Obviously a bad choice -- I must have forgotten temporarily that this was the
net. I was not equating the two. Perhaps I should have said something like
what if Gandalf were depicted with a big glowing halo over his head or some such
nonsense. If anybody took it the wrong way, I sincerely apologize.
|>
|> > I think Morgan Freeman and James Earl Jones are great actors. But for
|> > one of them to play Gandalf would come across as stilted and forced and
|> > annoyingly-PC.
|>
|> Ah, the clarion call of the weak interlocutor: "It's PC." If you cannot
|> attack a position using substantive argument, attack with labels, eh? :)
Well, one might argue (and I do) that 'unimaginative' is a very weak label to
tag somebody with. One which avoids really examining the motivations of your
opponents in this argument. That's the whole reason I got into this in the
first place.
|> [FWIW, I think the charges of racism against you and Ivan are equally
|> suspect, if the current thread is the source of the charges. It's become
|> all too easy in some of these discussions to dismiss people as being
|> racist or being politically correct.]
Ok, agreed. But I do contend that people participating in this thread have at
times shown a profound inability to discuss this issue dispassionately w/o
resorting to innuendos of racism. Just for example, you called my analogy above
'borderline racism'. You later gave me the benefit of the doubt (which I do
appreciate) but at the same time said others won't be so kind. But just suppose
I *had* suggested a 'glowing halo above Gandalf's head' instead of the '3rd
eye'. Would you or anybody else have thought for a minute that I was suggesting
that all blacks are angelic in nature? I doubt it. In fact you could probably
go to any newsgroup on the net and find somebody arguing w/ the same tactics I
was -- i.e. ad absurdum -- and if it's not an emotionally charged issue such as
race being discussed nobody would ever suggest that the examples being compared
were actually being *equated*. It is sad because as you point out things just
boil down to name calling and nobody takes real racism seriously anymore.
|>
|> > And it would stand out like a sore thumb and detract from most viewer's
|> > (IMHO) enjoyment.
|>
|> It would stand out *for those viewers who thought skin color is more
|> important than artistry or ability*. Most viewers, in my own
Whose artistry? Tolkien's or the actors? There are plenty of great actors out
there. Are you saying that any of them would be good for the part just because
they're good actors? How about Elijah Wood as Gandalf then?
|> occassinaly humble opinion, would be mildly surprised, but not robbed of
|> enjoyment.
This is obviously where we disagree.
|>
|> > I hope like hell if a movie is ever made whoever makes it doesn't cave to
|> > this type of pandering.
|>
|> And we should pander to an arbitrary need to separate black skin from
|> white instead? I think much of this debate can be phrased in a few
|> questions:
|>
|> 1) Did Tolkien have a definite skin color in mind when he created
|> Gandalf?
I think so. I believe in HC's bio of Tolkien there is a passage that describes
a post card or something like that (it's been a while) that Tolkien picked up in
Austria (???) with a picture of a wisened old man w/ a long white beard sitting
next to a tree. On it Tolkien had written: "The origin of Gandalf" (or
something like that, like I said it's been a while). No I don't recall if it
was a caucasian man or not. I'm not going to debate probabilities here. I
think there is ample evidence of his artistic intent to assume that Tolkien
thought of Gandalf as white.
|>
|> 2) Was this skin color important to Tolkien's conception of Gandalf?
|> Would Tolkien have objected to Morgan Freeman's playing Olorin?
I would think so. He was very opinionated about adaptations of his work. Race
and migrations of peoples w/in Middle-Earth was very important to his mythology.
A black Gandalf would have been out of place.
|>
|> 3) If the answer to question two is yes, are Tolkien's [inferred]
|> reasons strong enough? I.e., do the reasons go beyond some
|> cultural inability to picture non-whites as wise and powerful?
Bingo! This is what I was talking about above. Why is it so hard to believe
that somebody could object to a non-white Gandalf w/o having some sort of
white-supremacist hang-ups? It doesn't have anything to do w/ that. It just
clashes w/ the world he created. Boy oh boy ...
|>
|> 4) Must a film version of LotR be authentic not only to what Tolkien
|> wrote, but also to what we infer about his world?
IMHO, yes, it should be as true as possible to Tolkien's original intent.
|>
|> 5) Does the color of Gandalf's skin make any difference to potential
|> viewers of the film? The audience doesn't care if Gandalf wore size
|> 11 or size 12 boots. Will they care about his skin color?
1 vote for yes.
|>
|> -brian
|> --
|> "Saints fly only in the eyes of their disciples." - Hindu proverb
|>
|>
Bill
Bancroft Gracey
In article <3tjv73$e...@newsgate.dircon.co.uk>, Andrew Fenton (morm...@dircon.co.uk) writes:
>banc...@shoebox.win-uk.net (Bancroft Gracey) wrote:
>[snip]
>>Philip Madoc (most recently the defence barrister in the Jordache
>>trial, the soap Brookside)
>
>He was in Brookside
Hey, the man's got to eat...
>>and, last but not least,
>
>>Sean Connery.
>
>Classic! He would have to play someone in a LOTR movie. He has just
>the right charisma
On consideration, might cast him as Denethor. Or a cameo as Elrond.
>>There's probably a few hundred more that I've missed.
>
>>However, might I suggest that the casting of The Lord of the Rings
>>would depend upon Frodo & Aragorn? And for The Hobbit, Bilbo and
>>Thorin would need to be cast first?
>
>I think the Hobbit is just too childish to be made into a mainstream
>movie. ...
You mean, unlike Forrest Gump? But I think H. _has_ to be made
first.
> ... As for the hobbits in a LOTR movie, someone suggested using
>computer graphics to cut an actor down to the right size. If this was
>done I think a well-known actor would be inappropriate. For example,
>just imagine a pint-sized Kevin Costner.
>
>!Ping! Idea strikes me!
>
>For a pint-sized hobbit, how about Tom Cruise?
Um, not really... can't help seeing Bilbo as Bernard Cribbins,
after the Jackanory readings of years ago. Don't think he could
even play BB at 111, now, though.
-bpg-
Stephen Allcroft
> It would be far more distracting if they cast characters who are closely
> related to each other without regard for appearance. Eomer and Eowyn, for
> example, should have very similar looks; it would not do for one of them
> to be white and the other black.
I saw a production of "Die Walkure" with a black Seiglinde and a white
Seigmund. Surreal, subversive, really mocking. I like my Wagner like that.
--
Stephen Allcroft
Peter Greenwood
> Tommy Andreassen (to...@arr.nsc.no) wrote:
>
> : I don't think any actor should play
> : Gandalf or anyone else in Tolkiens books.
>
> : If they were to make a LoTR movie
> : with real people in it I think
> : that the voices and persons should
> : be impossible to recognize.
Hi everyone, I've been lurking on this group for a while, I can't resist
putting my two-penneth in on this one.
I remember being dissapointed with the film - it took my imagination a
long time to recover from seeing it. I don't think any film could even
begin to justice to the books.
Another point is the inevitable merchandising. Do you really want to see
'Baggins t-shirts(XL)','Sauron Essence For Men' ... what about 'Galadriel
Hair Spray (for that extra hold)'? Which of the songs gets the Whitney
Houston treatment ?
It does't bear thinking about.
[any ad-agencies reading this can ping my address if they need my mail
address to forward royalty cheques]
Peter
--
pe...@g6glx.demon.co.uk
Kaviyd
LotR movie, would a black Gandalf be any worse than Ralph Bakshi's
depiction of Aragorn as a Native American? Although the Numenoreans
settled in Middle Earth from "the West", their culture and that of their
successors in Arnor and Gondor shows no signs of Native American
influence; besides, their ancestry as described in the "Silmarillion"
would suggest a more European appearance.
But casting in general would be tough, as there are too few actors of the
right size to fill all the dwarf and hobbit roles.
Mike Hanrahan
>
>morm...@dircon.co.uk (Andrew Fenton) wrote:
>
>>banc...@shoebox.win-uk.net (Bancroft Gracey) wrote:
>
>
>>Classic! He would have to play someone in a LOTR movie. He has just
>>the right charisma
>
>kind of wasted as Gandalf, especially as Gandalf the White.
>
>A better Gandalf might be... Ok, I can't think of a good Gandalf. I can't
think
>of an actor who is at once old enough, good enough to provide the depth of
>character of Gandalf the Grey, or shallow enough to provide for a
believable
>Gandalf the White.
I prefer connery as Gandalf. The role needs an old man who can be both
gentle and imposing, able to show a fiery temper when required.
>
>>just imagine a pint-sized Kevin Costner.
>
>Not a good hobbit, but probably a good Boromir. When Costner dies, most
people
>will get as much of a shock as I did when Boromir died. I must have reread
that
>one single page some twenty times, I couldn't believe it!
Costner for nothing in this movie. I can't picture any middle earth
character with that corny accent of his. Also, I lost all confidence in his
ability to act in anything but a baseball movie after seeing his last few
roles, most notably Wyatt Earp.
>
>>!Ping! Idea strikes me!
>>
>>For a pint-sized hobbit, how about Tom Cruise?
>
>On which movie or tv-show is it that someone says: "Thou Lookest
Ridiculous"?
>(I think it's a Cheers eppisode)
>
>Tom Cruise could be a good... nahhh.
>Well, if you really want him in the movie, he'd be a good Glorfindel, or a
>possible Faramir, but that's about it.
I agree, Cruise would make a better elf. Cary Elwes would make the best elf
I think.
>Now for the interesting questions. What about female casting? Who do _you_
see
>as a good Galadriel/Arwen/Eowyn?
Good Question
Louis Epstein
: [...]
: > IMHO, Morgan Freeman playing Gandalf would be as ridiculous as Sean
: > Connery playing King Cetawayo in a remake of 'Zulu'.
: If Connery had the ability to play the role (though I don't think he
: could), and if skin color made no difference to the role, then there's
: no reason that he should be dismissed without his chance to read for the
: part. ("I'll attack the British right after I've had my haggis.") But of
: course, by intent or accident you chose a role for which skin color *is*
: important, so your comparison is inapt.
No,this is a role where skin color IS important,and you're just refusing
to admit it.Gandlaf is just as linked to the culture he represents as
Cetewayo.
: The only important question in this argument is why black skin on Gandalf
: makes a difference to the role. The most common answer offerred thus far is
: the *inference* (almost surely a valid one) that Tolkien pictured a white
: Gandalf. Does this matter influence the story? Apparently not. Does it
: play a crucial symbolic role? No.
YES.There is a specific culture here,and it is not identifiable with blacks.
: Like you, I desire an authentic-looking LotR movie. However, I cannot
: carry pedantry so far as to exclude qualified human beings from roles
: based on something that apparently (as he never brought it up) mattered
: nothing at all to the creator of Middle Earth.
While he certainly never gave truck to racism(see his letter to the Nazi
publisher),that he never thought it needed bringing up that his characters
in a story of temperate pre-history were all white does not mean he would
have felt them properly represented by blacks(whose few appearances were
by way of contrast to all others characters had seen).
: > Sorry Brian, but I care enough about Tolkien's work to
: > want to see a film of it done _right_ or not at all.
: I think a movie with MF as Gandalf would be just as "right" as a movie
: that put a "whites only" sign on the casting door for the Gandalf
: audition. What you really mean is, "I want a LotR movie done so that it
: echoes my own view of Middle Earth and its inhabitants." You imply that
: to do otherwise would bruise Tolkien's intent, but that's just begging
: the question. For me, casting the best actor for the part of Gandalf is
: one good way to make the move "right."
It's not just his own view,or my own view,or Tolkien's own view,but the
right view.
: We don't perform Shakespeare's works as he envisaged them -- and he wrote
: material specifically designed to be staged. Somehow, though, the
: majesty in his plays survives. I suppose there are Shakespearean purists
: who tear out their hair that the plays aren't staged in the "right" way,
: but what of it? A great work spans time and culture. I believe LotR is
: great enough to stand the "ravage" of having a quality actor -- whose
: skin is darker than Tolkien probably imagined Gandalf's to be -- tackle a
: central role.
But why should the work be subjected to the indignity of casting that flies
in its face??
"Classical" Shakespearian theatre,where it differs from the c. 1600 version,
does so by correcting,not introducing,inaccuracies.The modernistic revamps
of Shakespeare are just as offensive as a multiracial NW M-E would be,or
more so.
Louis Epstein
Peter Greenwood (pe...@g6glx.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: > Tommy Andreassen (to...@arr.nsc.no) wrote:
: >
: > : I don't think any actor should play
: > : Gandalf or anyone else in Tolkiens books.
: >
: > : If they were to make a LoTR movie
: > : with real people in it I think
: > : that the voices and persons should
: > : be impossible to recognize.
: Hi everyone, I've been lurking on this group for a while, I can't resist
: putting my two-penneth in on this one.
: I remember being dissapointed with the film - it took my imagination a
: long time to recover from seeing it. I don't think any film could even
: begin to justice to the books.
: Another point is the inevitable merchandising. Do you really want to see
: 'Baggins t-shirts(XL)','Sauron Essence For Men' ... what about 'Galadriel
: Hair Spray (for that extra hold)'? Which of the songs gets the Whitney
: Houston treatment ?
DOn't forget the "Fellowship" plastic key rings the Bakshi movie spawned...
Ivan A Derzhanski
>Bill Chesky - Contractor (Guy Miller) (wch...@austin.wireline.slb.com) wrote:
>> Of course we don't always know what that is but in this case I think
>> there are enough clues to suggest beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt
>> that Tolkien did not think of Gandalf as black.
>
>that Tolkien pictured Gandalf with dark skin.
No, but several people tried trying (to use your expression) to claim
that he had no idea what Gandalf's racial features were.
>[...] so far the reasons presented for excluding a non-white actor
>from playing Gandalf have been rather weak, amounting to little more
>than personal preference.
Nonsense. The fact is that the Middle-earth tales are derived from
the epic tales of the Celts and the Norsemen and are set in a world
which is consciously identified with Europe; and it so happens that
the indigenous population of this part of the world has white skin.
That has nothing to do with anyone's personal preference.
>Neither Gandalf nor any other of Tolkien's characters echo in
>readers' minds in exactly the manner Tolkien imagined them.
Perhaps not. None the less, a film should respect at least the things
which are stated explicitly and the things which can be inferred directly.
The exact facial features of each characters are something on which we
can differ; but that doesn't mean that we know absolutely nothing definite
about their appearance.
>WHY does a black Gandalf equal a disfigured Gandalf?
>WHY does a black Gandalf change the character or detract from the story?
That's simple. If you put a black man and a disfigured white man in
the marketplace of a town in the northwest of Europe 1500 years ago,
which one do you think would look more obviously out of place?
>Comparing black skin with a deformed mutation (an extra, oozing eye)
>certainly sounds like borderline racism, as does an earlier poster's
>equating a black Gandalf with a canine Gandalf. For my part, I attribute
>the comparisons to sloppy wording, not racism, but I know for fact that
>a few readers have jumped to the other conclusion.
No, my reference to a canine Gandalf was not sloppy wording. I meant
exactly what I wrote. We were accused of not being able to stretch
our minds enough as to be able to picture a black Gandalf. My reply
was intended to demonstrate that it is certainly possible to stretch
one's mind enough as to be able to picture any absurd thing, but that
doesn't make said thing any less absurd.
>[FWIW, I think the charges of racism against you and Ivan are equally
>suspect, if the current thread is the source of the charges. It's become
>all too easy in some of these discussions to dismiss people as being
>racist or being politically correct.]
Racism means suggesting that one race is inherently superior to another.
If I believed that a white actor could play the part of a black man, but
not _vice versa_, you would be right to accuse me of racism. I happen
to think that both are equally absurd.
>> And it would stand out like a sore thumb and detract from most
>> viewer's (IMHO) enjoyment.
>
>It would stand out *for those viewers who thought skin color is more
>important than artistry or ability*.
And why do you think actors use make-up, if the viewers don't care
what they look like?
>3) [...] do the reasons go beyond some cultural inability
> to picture non-whites as wise and powerful?
Don't be obtuse, Brian. Gandalf's skin colour has nothing to do with
his being wise and powerful. We're talking of a world in which everyone
is white -- the wise and the idiots, the powerful and the powerless. If
you suggested a black actor for the part of one of Barliman Butterbur's
servants, I'd have reacted in the same way, and for the same reasons.
As for JRRT's abilities, they are neither here nor there. He could
have chosen to derive his mythology from the tales of the Bushmen, and
in that case you'd have ample material for a film with no white actors.
He didn't. Enough said.
Stephen Allcroft
[Many mathoms snipped]
>
>
> "Classical" Shakespearian theatre,where it differs from the c. 1600 version,
>
I see! You're a better judge than Shakespeare of what's accurate are you?
I suggest you look at where Kean and Garrick have ended up, certainly nowhere
different from where Shakespeare did, or you will.
Personally I don't want an hour long Othello re-written with a happy ending, or
Dr Bowlder's Shakespeare for children and women. I don't want to see pre
pubescent boys in the women's roles any more than I want to see Sarah
Bernhardt play Hamlet, give me what the RSC and the Young Vic do anyday!
--
Stephen Allcroft
Stephen Allcroft
i...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk "Ivan A Derzhanski" writes:
>
> Nonsense. The fact is that the Middle-earth tales are derived from
> the epic tales of the Celts
>
Nonsense yourself! there's nothing from celtic mythology in the Middle Earth
books, take a look at the Mabingion or Tailessin for yourself if you don't
believe me!
--
Stephen Allcroft
Brian E. Clark
> Another point is the inevitable merchandising. Do you really want to see
> 'Baggins t-shirts(XL)'...
Alas, I have seen this, when the Bakshi movie was released. I'm looking
at a magazine issued in conjunction with the movie, and in the back are ads
for some rather undignified merchandise:
* Lord of the Rings Sculpture Banks, "Up to 13" Tall in Full Color."
The ad brags that the banks, which are 3-d representations of
of characters in the movie, are "meticulously sculpted in durable
vinyl and realistically painted. Brave Frodo, loyal Sam, wise
Gandalf, heroic Aragorn, tormented Gollum and the fearsome
Ringwraith..." Only Frodo looks reasonable. All the others bear
expressions that seem to indicate recent groin injury. The
RingWraith wields a battle axe.
* Lord of the Rings Gollum Puzzle, 1000 pieces
Gollum in the Dead Marshes, sitting on a log and looking dejected,
as if he'd just been turned down by his desired prom date.
* Frodo and Gandalf Puzzle, 1000 pieces
A Michelangelo-esque Gandalf (resembling God the Father on the
Sistine Chapel's ceiling) talking to Frodo, who inexplicably looks
as if he's sucking a lemon drop.
* Lord of the Rings Buttons
Mug shots from the movie of Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, Gandalf, Gollum
and Aragorn. If you liked the way the characters were drawn in the
movie, you'd probably like the buttons. I wonder how many sold?
* Lord of the Rings Combat Game
The SPI "War of the Ring" game sitting on many of your closet
shelves.
* Posters. Some of you may remember these:
Gandalf Movie Poster: A giant Gandalf with a beard longer than
Princess Di's wedding gown holds a long, cruciform
sword; he points upward and outward (perhaps he just located
his car in the lot?). A hobbit, back to the viewer, stands
on either side of the oversized sword.
Fellowship of the Ring Poster: Everyone looks really, really
pissed off, especially Aragorn. Legolas resembles David Bowie.
Boromir appears to be plunging his sword into Merry's back.
Gollum Poster: A mirror-image of the Gollum puzzle described above.
* Official Lord of the Rings T-Shirts
Available only in Boy's large, Men's Small and Men's Medium. The
T-shirt picturing Bilbo laughing with a beer stein in his hand is
actually cute. Frodo peering through the Ring might have been
okay, but the caption "Frodo Lives" appears below him. The shirt
labeled "Sauron's Circle" features a RingWraith (makes sense),
Saruman (okay), Gollum (indirectly, I guess) and Wormtounge
(stretch-a-roonie).
Tyson S. Ouellette
: |> >voice. But I would point out that God did bestow on him one of the
: |> >best in the world, while giving you a sorely deficeint imagination,
: |> >evidenced by your inability to picture a black Gandalf.
Gandalf wasn't black. Tolkien didn't make him so, a movie wouldn't
be worth the money spent on it unless it stuck to Tolkein's design.
: one that is as close to Tolkien's original intent as possible. Of course we
: don't always know what that is but in this case I think there are enough clues
: to suggest beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt that Tolkien did not think
: of Gandalf as black. I find it hard to believe any reasonable person would
: dispute this.
As I remember, none of the characters from Tolkien
were other than caucasian, except for the Elves, Dwarves, etc.. but even
they are white. Oftentimes we see this trend in fantasy, things get very
"Nordic" there's nothing wrong with that, and we shouldn't hack a work to
pieces because it has all white characters. I hear people continuously
complaining about fantasy authors always making white characters, etc..
but I don't see these people writing the books that they claim should be
written.. it's hard work to write a good book period, it should be done
as the author likes it, w/o concern for political correctness. Tolkien
obviously saw his characters as white, that's his choice as an author.
: I also find the suggestion that anybody who objects to a black actor playing
: Gandalf is unimaginative, narrow-minded in the extreme. Like Ivan says it's
: easy to imagine anything you want. I can imagine a Gandalf with a 3rd bloody,
: puss-filled eye in the middle of his forehead if I work at it long enough.
I agree there, straying from Tolkien's writings wouldn't be good,
he, as an author, made the choices he made for a good reason, and I can say, as
a writer, that I would go flaming mad if someone tried to do that with my
work.
--
[?7h [255D [40m
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ｳ (\/) [9C(\/) [8CTyson S. Ouellette [5Cｳ
ｳ [5C\\ �� // [5C<bud...@river.biddeford.com>ｳ
ｳ [7C\\( [0;5;32m��[0;1;30m)// [14CMaine, USA [11Cｳ
ｳ [6C\_/(___)\_/ [34Cｳ
ｳ [6C\_/(___)\_/ ) [5CHave you hugged your [5Cｳ
ｳ [6C\_/(___)\_/ < > Centruroides exilicauda ｳ
ｳ [6C\_/(___)\_/ ( ) today? [19Cｳ
ｳ [10C( ) [5C( ) [30Cｳ
ｳ [12C( )( ) [33Cｳ
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[0m [255D
User Name@cetus.mngt.uleth.ca Your Full Name Goes Here
>Tommy Andreassen (to...@arr.nsc.no) wrote:
>
>: I don't think any actor should play
>: Gandalf or anyone else in Tolkiens books.
>
>: If they were to make a LoTR movie
>: with real people in it I think
>: that the voices and persons should
>: be impossible to recognize.
>
>: animation(like jurassic park),
>: ordinary animation and masked people.
>
>I'd say COMPLETE computer generation of photorealistic images,which is
>not yet within our technology,but soon...
>
I think this is ajob for Henson productions - the ultimate re-telling of
a fantasy/folktale.
C. White
S.A.T. Haldane
>In article <DBLo8...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
> i...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk "Ivan A Derzhanski" writes:
>>
>> Nonsense. The fact is that the Middle-earth tales are derived from
>> the epic tales of the Celts
>>
>
>Nonsense yourself! there's nothing from celtic mythology in the Middle Earth
>books, take a look at the Mabingion or Tailessin for yourself if you don't
>believe me!
Valinor seems to be based on Tir nan Og. This would make the Eldar the Tuatha
De, which is vaguely consistent, but doesn't exhibit itself in any particular
which I can think of: they aren't descended from a goddess, and the Sword, the
Spear, the Stone of Destiny and the Cauldron of Plenty conspicuously fail to
appear - a usual symptom of fiction based on Celtic mythology.
One could probably equate Gandalf to Merlin, which would make his protege
Aragorn equivalent to Arthur. Both are kings who have swords, but that's about
the limit of their similarity. Personally I find this unconvincing.
I would say that Celtic is one of the mythic sources from which JRRT drew.
'The fact is that the Middle-earth tales are derived from the epic tales of the
Celts' sounds like a big overstatement to me.
Fin en-Ndaedeloth
John Osborne
Message-ID: <588118...@kami.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wednesday, Jul 12, 1995 18.28.56
Organization: None
Reply-To: jo...@kami.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7
Lines: 127
In article: <3tuvmj$p...@tusk.lm.com> br...@telerama.lm.com (Brian E.
Clark) writes:
>
> John Osborne (jo...@kami.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > IMHO, Morgan Freeman playing Gandalf would be as ridiculous as Sean
> > Connery playing King Cetawayo in a remake of 'Zulu'.
>
> If Connery had the ability to play the role (though I don't think he
> could), and if skin color made no difference to the role, then there's
> no reason that he should be dismissed without his chance to read for the
> part. ("I'll attack the British right after I've had my haggis.") But of
^^^^^^
You mean, of course, haggish. :^)
> course, by intent or accident you chose a role for which skin color *is*
> important, so your comparison is inapt.
Pardon? If skin colour is important when playing a Zulu, why should it not
be so when playing an apparent native of the northern temperate zone?
>
> The only important question in this argument is why black skin on Gandalf
> makes a difference to the role. The most common answer offerred thus far
is
> the *inference* (almost surely a valid one) that Tolkien pictured a white
> Gandalf. Does this matter influence the story? Apparently not. Does it
> play a crucial symbolic role? No. Whence, then, the problem? It seems to
> spring from a desire to cross every 't' as we think Tolkien crossed it.
Congratulations, you've neatly side-stepped the whole subject of
geographical location. _Applicability_ must surely be important? We are
left to *infer* that Beowulf, Njall, Beorthelm etc are white; to portray
them as black would not damage the works but would be _inapplicable_.
>
> Like you, I desire an authentic-looking LotR movie. However, I cannot
> carry pedantry so far as to exclude qualified human beings from roles
> based on something that apparently (as he never brought it up) mattered
> nothing at all to the creator of Middle Earth.
...or perhaps it was so basic that it never needed to be stated?
>
> [...]
>
> > > 5) Does the color of Gandalf's skin make any difference to potential
> > > viewers of the film? The audience doesn't care if Gandalf wore
size
> > > 11 or size 12 boots. Will they care about his skin color?
>
> > The audience cared about such a minor point as The One Ring having a
> > white stone in the Rankin-Bass animation. Until a few days ago there
> > was quite a heated discussion on this ng about whether elves had
> > pointed ears.
>
> <Grin> Though you shouldn't have to be reminded yet again: the LotR
> *specifically* describes the Ring; it does not describe Gandalf's
> color, so once again you've made an invalid comparison.
It's a fair cop, but society is to blame :) I stand by the principle
(and the elves' ears) though.
[snip]
> I think a movie with MF as Gandalf would be just as "right" as a movie
> that put a "whites only" sign on the casting door for the Gandalf
> audition. What you really mean is, "I want a LotR movie done so that it
> echoes my own view of Middle Earth and its inhabitants."
No, I mean that I want a movie which echoes as closely as possible JRRT's
views. Unfortunately we can't ask him, so we have to go by what he left
behind; a _Northern European_ mythology.
> You imply that
> to do otherwise would bruise Tolkien's intent, but that's just begging
> the question. For me, casting the best actor for the part of Gandalf is
> one good way to make the move "right."
Which relies on _your_ opinion concerning best actor.
>
> We don't perform Shakespeare's works as he envisaged them -- and he wrote
> material specifically designed to be staged. Somehow, though, the
> majesty in his plays survives. I suppose there are Shakespearean purists
> who tear out their hair that the plays aren't staged in the "right" way,
> but what of it? A great work spans time and culture.
But then they become other than the 'great work'. Examples; starting from
'The Seven Samurai' we had first 'The Magnificent Seven' and then 'Battle
Beyond the Stars'. Starting from 'The Tempest' we have 'Forbidden Planet'.
From 'The Taming of the Shrew' we have 'Kiss Me Kate'. The plot and
characters remained pretty much the same in the later versions but become
something totally separate from the originals. Admittedly these are rather
more extreme than (IMHO) miscasting a single actor, but where does one draw
the line? The plot of Bakshi's 'LOTR' did not suffer overly from deleting
Bombadil, but that remains one of the biggest gripes against it.
> I believe LotR is
> great enough to stand the "ravage" of having a quality actor -- whose
> skin is darker than Tolkien probably imagined Gandalf's to be -- tackle a
> central role.
Certainly. It withstood that bloody awful Rankin-Bass thing, but that does
not justify "ravaging" it in the first place.
>
> Besides, where are we supposed to find gobs of pudgy children, who are
also
> talented enough to perform adult roles, to play the Hobbits in the Shire
> sequences? ;-)
Try watching 'Bugsy Malone', avoid 'Hook' ;)
By the way, who is Morgan Freeman? To my shagrin I cannot place him at all.
Sorry if this displays stupefying ignorance, but....
Jmicha5059
have the movie.
Brian E. Clark
wrote:
[...]
> As best as we are able to determine what Tolkien's original intent
> was, yes, I do think that should take primacy over all else.
Trouble is, my indifference to the skin color of Gandalf stems from the
fact that it was not Tolkien's "intent" (by which I mean something
specifically contrived as having importance to the tale) that Gandalf be
white. Rather, that attribute is mostly a by-product of the mythological
setting he chose. Add to this the fact that Gandalf was not a native of
Middle Earth, not a natural part of this quasi-English landscape. His
skin color is one of the automatic details, like Gandalf with a British
accent, that make seemingly no difference to the tale at all.
To overstate the point a bit (in hopes of making it clearer), I don't
care if Tolkien imagined the Fellowship walking across ryegrass,
bluegrass or fescue. He didn't mention it, so I don't care what type of
grass forms the sod in the movie. In particular I don't feel that the
producers should be obliged to figure out what type of grass Tolkien
probably envisaged -- and there's no reason to think that Tolkien was any
less certain-by-default about the grass than he was about Gandalf's
color.
[...]
> But certainly you are not claiming that any choice would be valid are you?
Assuredly not. Without question, the actor playing Gandalf must be able
to portray both the physical and non-physical attributes that Tolkien
wrote about. The bushy eyebrows matter. The ability to appear dangerous
with a sword matters. The angry gleam at foolish questions matters. The
combination of earthy concern with lofty wisdom matters. I do not think
many actors could manage the task well, and most would default to a
stilted version of Obi Wan Kenobi. Bleah.
> Surely, there are choices for the part that would rub you the wrong
> way aren't there? How 'bout Tom Cruise as Gandalf? ;)
Hey, warn me to have medication handy before you make a suggestion like
that! :)
[...]
> Just out of curiosity why do you belittle this concern?
I'm not really trying to belittle the concern, in the sense of trying
to make its sponsors look foolish. I just find it to be of little
importance, like the type of grass. I will go out on a limb and say that
the rather hard-line insistence about Gandalf being portrayed by a white
man in some cases echoes more than a desire to make things as Tolkien saw
them. As with the grass, as with a billion other details, a one-to-one
match just isn't possible.
So there must be something about skin color, or rather appearance
-- something that has nothing to do with LotR -- intruding into people's
evaluations. (And let me state outright that I'm not claiming racism on
the part of anyone.) For instance, American TV audiences have become
obsessed with fanatical correspondence between character and actor.
Thus, an actor playing Prince Charles must look just like Charles, even
though another actor, who isn't a near twin, might capture Charles much
more realistically. Perhaps something like that is going on here,
wherein a discrepancy in appearance takes precedence over all else? Put
differently, assuming that the perfect actor doesn't exist, why should the
visual part of Tolkien's "intent," and in particular details never
mentioned by the author, count as primary, especially over details that
were mentioned?
[...]
> But I do contend that people participating in this
> thread have at times shown a profound inability to discuss this issue
> dispassionately w/o resorting to innuendos of racism.
Well, I have avoided that, and for the simple and delightful reason that
I've seen no hint of racist intent.
> Just for example, you called my analogy above 'borderline racism'.
I did that to explain why I thought some people might take issue with the
phrasing, read in isolation. In contrast, it's the palpable *lack* of
racism in this thread that I notice most.
[...]
> There are plenty of great actors out there. Are you saying that any
> of them would be good for the part just because they're good actors?
If they're good at playing Gandalf, yes, but acting quality doesn't
translate automatically into fitness for a role. I think Robert DeNiro is a
superb actor, but I can think of a few reasons that he would make a poor
Gandalf. [His ethnic background is not among those reasons. ;-)]
The choice for Gandalf rests as much on finding an actor who can fulfill
Gandalf's other attributes as it does on finding someone to look like an
old wizard. I don't discount the desire to create Gandalf authentically,
and that includes the desire to match Gandalf's appearence to what
Tolkien pictured. I just don't assign more priority to his color
than I do his demeanor, or his manner of speech, or any of a host of
other characteristics. My position is really one of comprimise, just as
yours no doubt is, but with one exception:
IF one actor cannot capture 100% of Gandalf, the wizard's character,
his physical appearance, his characteristic quirks, then something
must be sacrificed. Among those sacrificial items, and holding more
or less the same weight as they do, is Gandalf's skin color.
I do admit, though, that I'd rather have a non-white Gandalf who captures
100% of the wizard's personality than a white Gandalf who captures only
50%. I consider an actor's inabilty to portray a sometimes grumpy, quick-
to-forgive Gandalf the greater flaw, though he may look the part better
than anyone else. But that is personal preference.
> |> The audience doesn't care if Gandalf wore size
> |> 11 or size 12 boots. Will they care about his skin color?
> 1 vote for yes.
Was that a vote for size 11 or size 12? ;-)
Brian E. Clark
> Pardon? If skin colour is important when playing a Zulu, why should it not
> be so when playing an apparent native of the northern temperate zone?
The movie "Zulu" focused on a rebellion of the native African population
against European overlords. One of the primary means of recognizing an
enemy of the Zulu was by his white skin. Black and white mattered a great
deal in "Zulu," and casting a Scottish charmer as a tribal leader fighting
against evil invaders from the British Isles makes little sense. What in
the LotR shows a comparable conflict?
[...]
> Congratulations, you've neatly side-stepped the whole subject of
> geographical location. _Applicability_ must surely be important? We are
> left to *infer* that Beowulf, Njall, Beorthelm etc are white; to portray
> them as black would not damage the works but would be _inapplicable_.
What??!!! I've seen a version of _Beowulf_ that included black actors.
There was nothing "inapplicable" about it.
[...]
> No, I mean that I want a movie which echoes as closely as possible JRRT's
> views. Unfortunately we can't ask him, so we have to go by what he left
> behind; a _Northern European_ mythology.
The "view" of JRRT's that would matter is whether or not he would object
to a non-white Gandalf. You imply that an author's writing a
Northern European-based work constitutes *deliberate* intent about a
character's color. At best we get a statement such as, "Barring
competing information, we can assume Gandalf was white, just as we can
assume what kinds of heather grew in the hills." It does not easily
equate to "Gandalf's color meant anything" or "Gandalf *must* be white in a
screen version of the work"; it absolutely does not equate to
"Tolkien would have spoken against anyone but Dolf Lungren with snowy
hair for the part." :)
> > For me, casting the best actor for the part of Gandalf is
> > one good way to make the move "right."
> Which relies on _your_ opinion concerning best actor.
The "best actor" may be black or white. We cannot find that out if we
exclude quality actors from our pool of candidates.
[...]
> By the way, who is Morgan Freeman? To my shagrin I cannot place him at
> all. Sorry if this displays stupefying ignorance, but....
His recent movies include "The Shawshank Redemption" (sp?),
"Outbreak" and (a while ago) "Unforgiven." He played the Moor in Kevin
Costner's "Robin Hood." And some of us Merkins remember when he worked
on a children's show called "The Electric Company," often appearing as
Spidey, a Spider Man clone who taught kids about grammar and spelling.
Peter Greenwood
Message-ID: <146444...@g6glx.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wednesday, Jul 12, 1995 23.43.56
Organization: None
Reply-To: pe...@g6glx.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7
Lines: 11
br...@telerama.lm.com (Brian E. Clark) writes:
> Alas, I have seen this, when the Bakshi movie was released. I'm looking
> at a magazine issued in conjunction with the movie, and in the back are ads
> for some rather undignified merchandise: ......
I can't remember any of that .... but think what they would do these days :-(
--
pe...@g6glx.demon.co.uk
Bancroft Gracey
arguing for a black Gandalf appear to be Merkins. It's probably
something in the water.
Let's explain this in simple terms, again:
Gandalf is White. Not red, blue, green, tartan or black. Nor does
he have three eyes, four legs or a tail. Nor is he exceptionally
short or tall or hunchbacked. Or female. Or young.
This excludes Morgan Freeman from the role (as, I suspect, the man
himself would agree). In the same way that it excludes Lauren
Bacall. It's not racist, or sexist, or ageist. (Although, IMO, the
chances of _any_ current US actor being allowed to test for any
role, should a film be cast, are close to zero. As also German,
French, Italian, Japanese...)
Incidentally, arguing that "JRRT didn't say what colour he is" or
"JRRT's opinion doesn't count in a film" is just stupid, as well
as impolite. Unless our culture(s) diverge so much from his that it
is no longer possible to view his work in the way he expected (as
has happened with Shakespeare), we should give his opinions
particular weight.
Some alteration to plot might be necessary in filming LR (though
dropping Bombadil was a bad mistake, IMO); but altering character
or appearance - never.
All clear now?
-bpg-
Graham Hawkins
>not yet within our technology,but soon...
No way. No chance. Computers will never replace actors. It's one thing to say
that human nature is algorithmic but another to write the algorithm.
Graham
O. Sharp
I like Morgan Freeman _and_ Sean Connery. :)
I agree with John Osborne and Ivan whose-last-name-I-can't-easily-spell
(sorry, Ivan <g>) that a black Gandalf was probably not something JRRT
intended, or indeed even contemplated; in fact I suspect, given his
cultural upbringing, that the question would never even have _occurred_
to him to _ask_.
That said, I also agree with Brian Clark that LotR is a strong enough
piece of literature that the power and depth of the work would come
through in _any_ well-done production, regardless of the racial makeup of
the casting. There might be a few raised eyebrows here and there, when
characters don't look like the characters we've envisioned in our minds
for so many years, but that's inevitable no matter _who_ gets cast; if
the actors are good enough, they'll eventually _make_ themselves
believeable and acceptable in their roles.
With all that said on both sides, though, and with the hopes of some
possible middle-ground in this polarizing debate now in place, I'll come
to the punchline.
I think the best way to resolve the racial-casting-of-Gandalf difficulty
is to cast Michael Jackson. All you'd need to do is give him a few more
skin treatments when you got to the meeting with Saruman at Isengard, and
he's be completely convincing when he said, "Behold, Saruman! I am
Gandalf, the White!" :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
o...@netcom.com ...And then he can go right into the music video!
"Lord of the Rings: The Rock Opera!" What do you
think? Bono as Aragorn? Natalie Merchant as
Arwen? Courtney Love as Galadriel? Axl Rose as
Eomer? Trent Reznor as Frodo? I think we're on to
a winner here...
Vinay Somasundara Rao
Gandalf is White. Not red, blue, green, tartan or black. Nor does
he have three eyes, four legs or a tail. Nor is he exceptionally
short or tall or hunchbacked. Or female. Or young.
Let me bring up an analogy here.
Mahabharata is a mythological story based in Northern India.
This predates all European invaders (British, Dutch, French etc). The
story has been made into a million plays and movies. It is an integral
part of most Indian classical dances. Also, a man named Peter Brooks
made a stage version of the story. In this version there was only one
Indian in the cast. The others included Whites, Blacks and East
Asians.
A lot of Indians were quite outraged at this. He took considerable
liberties with the casting. The story was by and large unaltered, but
the language was English (not Sanskrit as in the original) and the
conversation was in prose (not poetry as in the original). I must
admit I quite liked the play. In some respects it was better than most
versions I had seen in India. The characters came out just as strongly
as I had known them.
Someone as competent as Peter Brooks may be able to pull of a similar
coup with Tolkien's work. Why close that option?
Vinay
PS: If you have not seen Peter Brook's Mahabharata, I strongly suggest
you rent the cassettes from a video store and see it :)
--
See the happy moron, he doesn't give a damn;
I wish I were a moron, My God! Perhaps, I am. -Anon