R.I.P. Chuck Jones - 1912-2002
Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1
>Chuck Jones is unquestionably deserving of praise for creating and
>directing a number of Warner Bros.' greatest, funniest, and most
>beloved cartoons; but when he was off the mark, his cartoons could be
>exceptionally cruel and violent. "The Bee-Deviled Bruin" is an
>example of this, as are the "Claude Cat and Frisky Puppy" cartoons.
>His actions and statements often made me think that Jones considered
>himself the savior of animation, and few if any of the artists to make
>a name for themselves in the field after Termite Terrace were worthy
>of praise in his eyes. Still, everyone has flaws, and it hardly
>detracts from the many immortal animated tales to spring forth from
>the mind, pens, and pencils of this man and his co-conspirators,
>especially Michael Maltese.
>
>
I don't care what anybody says, I've been watching cartoons and studying
animation for a long time now, and Chuck Jones in my eyes is the greatest --
and my favorite.
-Aaron!
Michelle Klein-Hass
<mod...@modemac.com> wrote:
> Still, his idolization has been taken a bit too far in some areas.
> Chuck Jones is unquestionably deserving of praise for creating and
> directing a number of Warner Bros.' greatest, funniest, and most
> beloved cartoons; but when he was off the mark, his cartoons could be
> exceptionally cruel and violent. "The Bee-Deviled Bruin" is an
> example of this, as are the "Claude Cat and Frisky Puppy" cartoons.
> His actions and statements often made me think that Jones considered
> himself the savior of animation, and few if any of the artists to make
> a name for themselves in the field after Termite Terrace were worthy
> of praise in his eyes.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! for bringing a bit of sanity into this
Jones love-fest.
Chuck Jones managed to get all the kudos that greater artists like Avery
and Clampett and Freleng never got because he outlived them all. Jones
stood on the shoulders of giants to get where he got, and thanks to his
feud with Clampett in particular animation history is incomplete about the
significance of each Termite Terrace director.
While Jones was a decent director, and with the help of some amazingly
talented people created some great cartoons, his status as the last
surviving Termite Terrace director has meant that he has received an
inordinate amount of praise and not enough objective criticism.
For Jones at his meanest, one need only look at "Angel Puss." Everyone
cites Tex Avery's racism, and some even look at Clampett's Jazz cartoons
and cry racism when Clampett was incredibly ahead of his time and was a
friend to many of the greats of the LA jazz scene. All of the faces you
see in "Tin Pan Alley Cats" and "Coal Black And De Sebben Dwarves" are
caricatures of real musicians he hung out with at the Central Avenue jazz
and blues clubs of the '40s. He insisted that some of these musicians be
in on the recording of the soundtracks for these two cartoons.
"Angel Puss", however, is so foul that you can't watch it without wincing.
A little black boy is given a quarter to drown a cat, and is tormented
afterwards by the surviving cat, who feigns being a ghost. All the
stereotypes: a black who will do anything...ANYTHING...for a buck,
superstitious black people, lazy, shiftless black people, are present in
this horror show. It is mean-spirited and cruel and worthy only for
viewing at Klan rallies.
I don't need to go into the times Jones created greatness...that's been
covered by a thousand pens. I'm just saying that the halo and wings don't
entirely fit him. Let's get real. Jones was a good, sometimes great,
director. He was NOT the Second Coming, however.
--.\\<-H--
Contrarian as always...
--
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Franklin Harris
"Michelle Klein-Hass" <msg...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:msgeek-2402...@192.168.2.93...
> Thank you, thank you, thank you! for bringing a bit of sanity into this
> Jones love-fest.
Well, I agree that Jones is "overrated" -- how could anyone with his
reputation not be? -- and I actually do prefer Clampett, if we're only
comparing each's WB output. But I think we can avoid delving too far into
Chuck's closet while his body's still warm, eh?
--
Franklin Harris
Pulp Culture Online, www.pulpculture.net
"I was sure of the Man in the Moon before I was certain of the moon." -- The
Kinks
nu-monet v4.0
>
> For Jones at his meanest, one need only look at
Well, gee, if we can totally ignore the historical
fact that most of the US felt the same way, and so
most of the people in the US at the time were "mean
racists."
Have you ever talked with anyone who lived during
that time? How before the Civil Rights movement
almost no one even *considered* Civil Rights as
more than the vague "right to vote?"
How most of the US had de facto segregation, even
when it was not codified, and nobody noticed?
There was a "black" part of town, with its own
rules, its own para-government, and sometimes even
its own police. Troublemakers were often driven
out of town--not seen as victims of the white man--
and the now often scorned religion and "family
values" social sanctions were the norm.
And here's the great irony: blacks thought that
"white society" rules were as silly as whites thought
about "black society" rules. Black people both
laughed *with* and *at* white people too. So how to
depict reality without offending people 60-70 years
down the road, when standards have changed, and
blacks are terribly offended by their own history?
--
"You've really got to train and condition
these football players until they react
without thinking, just like Pablo's dog."
--Coach Frank Kush, Arizona State
G&L
As a student I sat right beside Chuck Jones visiting our college as with
other
students who sat casually asking him questions.
A bold student asked what he thought of Coal Black. Chuck Jones'
response was
less a criticsm of a film than it was a regret for an era where racism
was
accepted. He didn't totally buy the Clampett apocrphyl apologetic that
CB was
suggested by Black musicians citing to the effect that's what we all
believed
about Blacks; that was what was socially accepted. The student said but
that
was the way they acted in live action. Chuck's response they acted that
way
because a white director told them to and the actors had to eat.
When I was a kid I used to tell jokes about Newfoundlanders as was
common to
make fun of our newest province. Here I was an immigrant kid making fun
of
Newfoundlanders....I knew nothing about Newfoundland or its people or
what the
hell a "Newfie" was. But it was socially acceptable. Would I do it now?
No.
Was I malicious and hateful? No. Was I ignorant. Yes.
I'd bet CJ and other directors looking at their racial cartoons from our
modern standards were more ignorant than card-carrying KKK members.
Towing
the social line, using the black caricature as a symbol of
dim-wittedness the
same way we see a cartoon bulldog and know there's gonna be trouble.(Now
how
many bulldogs do you know that are chained up as watch dogs? [lol!])
If Chuck was ignorant; he was then enlightened, as for his touching
chapter
about the only other Mr. Jones, a Black janitor at WB was written in one
of
his books.
BTW...I love Coal Black. It is incredibly progresive and prosocial for
its
time especially compared to other things of its time as you
described.Also at
that time I virtually never saw a pre-48 Jones. I'm kinda glad I didn't.
Gerard
nu-monet v4.0
>
> I've never seen Angel Puss. I don't doubt what you said
As I was reading this, a friend handed me a newspaper
from August 16, 1936. It has a "Ripley's Believe it or
Not", at almost half a page in size, with one of its
entries a picture of the head of a black man, with bad
teeth and a straw coming out of the corner of his mouth,
perhaps wearing a felt hat. Otherwise he is grinning.
Its caption:
"Daniel's Wisdom May I Know Stephen's Faith And
Spirit Choose John's Divine Communion Seal Moses
Meekness Joshua's Zeal Win The Day And Conquer
All Murphy," is the NAME of a negro in Pilot Grove,
Texas.
Again, this is from 1936.
I have a magnificant volume, a collection of cartoons
and jokes from a magazine published in New York before
1906 in which *everyone* except northwestern Europeans
are depicted as gross caricatures. Irish, Italians,
Jews, Negroes (American Blacks are distinguished from
foreign Blacks, though foreign Blacks are depicted both
as African and Pacific Island cannibals.) Even Germans
are seen as borderline ethnic stereotypes.
Perhaps the problem here is *not* stereotypes. Perhaps
it is both the *lack* of stereotypes for some, and the
"offensensitivity"(*), and lack of an education in
history of others.
I knew a woman born in 1900 from southern Indiana. In
her youth, she had been taught that the respectful word
for Blacks was "Niggras" (a corruption of "Negroes",
*not* "Niggers.) She would not call them "Blacks" as
she saw it as disrespectful (short for "Blackamoors",
almost a curse.) And "African-Americans" was an utter
puzzlement to her, which she decided was an insult to
those Blacks who had "honorably served in the military."
She would never dream of using the word "Niggers" as it
was utterly lower-class.
In the final analysis, she agreed that an awful lot had
happened in a century.
(*) coined by Berkeley Breathed, in his "Bloom County"
cartoon.
Joe Tein
> Chuck Jones managed to get all the kudos that greater artists like Avery
> and Clampett and Freleng never got because he outlived them all.
I seem to recall animation historians hailing Jones as a genius when
Avery, Clampett and Freleng were still alive.
> Jones stood on the shoulders of giants to get where he got
Huh? The quality of his films had nothing to do with it? Or are you
going to suggest he didn't direct them?
> For Jones at his meanest, one need only look at "Angel Puss."
One film out of hundreds. A mistake he made and never repeated.
> I don't need to go into the times Jones created greatness...that's been
> covered by a thousand pens. I'm just saying that the halo and wings don't
> entirely fit him. Let's get real. Jones was a good, sometimes great,
> director. He was NOT the Second Coming, however.
Nobody said he was. And if he was a good, sometimes great director
who sometimes created greatness, he deserves a lot of praise.
Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1
>and Clampett and Freleng never got because he outlived them all. Jones
>stood on the shoulders of giants to get where he got, and thanks to his
>feud with Clampett in particular animation history is incomplete about the
>significance of each Termite Terrace director.
Look. I love several of Clampett's cartoons. I enjoy almost none of Tex
Avery's cartoons outside of his Bugs Bunny work. Chuck Jones's cartoons are my
absolute favorite, and I enjoy far more of his animated shorts than those of
anybody else involved in animation.
Sure he had a mean streak. Sure he outlived everyone else and became the
most well-known of the Warners directors after the others were gone. The fact
of the matter is -- he produced more funny cartoons than any animation director
whose work I have seen (and I've seen a LOT, as I'm sure everyone here has).
It's like when Mel Blanc is compared to any other talented voice artist.
Sure June Foray is wonderful and Daws Butler and Don Messick but -- he's MEL
BLANC, for God's sake. Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck.
He's *CHUCK JONES.* Road Runner, Wile E. Coyote, Pepe Le Pew. The Grinch.
My favorite and, in my eyes, the greatest animated cartoon director that ever
lived and ever will live.
-Aaron!
Stephen W. Worth
aaro...@aol.combizarro (Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1 ) wrote:
> The fact of the matter is -- he produced more funny cartoons
> than any animation director
That isn't true. Jones's output was the most inconsistent of
any of the major directors at Warner Bros. Clampett's ratio
of hits to misses was the highest. Freleng was extremely
consistent, if a bit bland. Avery pretty much established
what a director at Warners was, and even his worst cartoons
provided conventions that the other directors mined for years
after he was gone. Jones ran hot and cold. His cartoons were
either incredibly great, or unbearable to watch. More than
any other director, he relied on recycling ideas and remaking
the same cartoon over and over with minor variations. This
isn't a good thing, but it was good at imprinting certain
characters and situations as icons in people's minds.
> He's *CHUCK JONES.* Road Runner, Wile E. Coyote, Pepe Le Pew. The Grinch.
> My favorite and, in my eyes, the greatest animated cartoon director that ever
> lived and ever will live.
At the very best, he is the second greatest cartoon director
that ever lived. I would rank him at number four or five.
See ya
Steve
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Jim Bennie
> I've never seen Angel Puss. I don't doubt what you said about it.
`Angel Puss'? Lord, the body's not even cold and already someone's
playing the race card on you, Gerard?
It boils down to this ... and I can probably say this for all the
Warners directors of the 40s and 50s .. Chuck Jones made some cartoons
I wasn't crazy about. But Chuck Jones and his merrie unit made some
cartoons I laughed in 1962 and laugh at in 2002. He gave the gift of
laughter.
That's a pretty damned good gift. I appreciate it. And I hope I always
will, because we all sure need it.
Jim
Mrs Babymash
[une petite snippage]
>For Jones at his meanest, one need only look at "Angel Puss." Everyone
>cites Tex Avery's racism, and some even look at Clampett's Jazz cartoons
>and cry racism when Clampett was incredibly ahead of his time and was a
>friend to many of the greats of the LA jazz scene. All of the faces you
>see in "Tin Pan Alley Cats" and "Coal Black And De Sebben Dwarves" are
>caricatures of real musicians he hung out with at the Central Avenue jazz
>and blues clubs of the '40s. He insisted that some of these musicians be
>in on the recording of the soundtracks for these two cartoons.
Can you name some of the jazz players featured? I'm not familiar with
either of the cartoons you mention but I'm guessing Dizzy Gillespie
(during his time "out west") might be among them? I've seen a cartoon
commercial (for "Bop Pops" or similar) which featured Gillespie but I
think this dates to the early 1950s and not the 40s.
==============================================
Mrs Båbymåsh [668 - Neighbøur øf The Beåst]
"God, grant me SERENITY to deal with problems I can't change,
COURAGE to face the challenges of all other problems and
WISDOM to hide the bodies of those who fuck with me."
http://mrs-babymash.dampgirl.com
==============================================
DishRoom1
Gerald wrote --
Agreed. I think no matter how great a moviemaker you are, you're still make
some few lumps of coal along with the gems you've mastered. Walt Disney was
good, but even he can't please anyone either. Same with Don Bluth. Or just
about *any* filmmaker, live-action or animated. They're as human as we are.
John Shughart
DishRoom1
Frankin Harris wrote --
>>Well, I agree that Jones is "overrated" -- how could anyone with his
>>reputation not be? -- and I actually do prefer Clampett, if we're only
>>comparing each's WB output. But I think we can avoid delving too far into
>>Chuck's closet while his body's still warm, eh?
>
>I love many (if not all) of his greatest cartoons, and my laserdisc of
>Road Runner cartoons is one of my prize posessions. I'm not going to
>go on a Jones-bashing tirade here. However, in the midst of all the
>praise being given to Jones in respect for him (much of which is well
>deserved), it's still worth noting that the guy wasn't perfect, and he
>did have a mean streak. That's all I want to point out.
>
>Of course, Walt Disney was a slave driver and possibly (unconfirmed
>slanderous rumor) anti-Semitic as well. We all have our faults.
I once saw a special air on ABC last December, in time of Disney's celebration
of what would have been his 100th birthday, interviewing the Disney family and
Walt's veteran employees as a documentary on Walt. At one point the show talked
about the alleged bigotry Walt had of non-whites, which was dispelled by those
who known him closely. One interviewee, a black man (I forgot his name, and he
probally was an actor) told a story about being with Spike Lee, and Lee ranted
on of how a racist Walt supposingly was, and this answered with something to
the effect of "Spike, how do you know Walt was a racist? He wasn't. I knew Walt
and you never meet him."
John Shughart
Joe Cosby
typing feverishly;
thunder crashed, write2mrs...@yahoo.com (Mrs Babymash) laughed
madly, then wrote:
>Fuck me swinging if Michelle Klein-Hass didn't just say...:
>
>[une petite snippage]
>
>>For Jones at his meanest, one need only look at "Angel Puss." Everyone
>>cites Tex Avery's racism, and some even look at Clampett's Jazz cartoons
>>and cry racism when Clampett was incredibly ahead of his time and was a
>>friend to many of the greats of the LA jazz scene. All of the faces you
>>see in "Tin Pan Alley Cats" and "Coal Black And De Sebben Dwarves" are
>>caricatures of real musicians he hung out with at the Central Avenue jazz
>>and blues clubs of the '40s. He insisted that some of these musicians be
>>in on the recording of the soundtracks for these two cartoons.
>
>Can you name some of the jazz players featured? I'm not familiar with
>either of the cartoons you mention but I'm guessing Dizzy Gillespie
>(during his time "out west") might be among them? I've seen a cartoon
>commercial (for "Bop Pops" or similar) which featured Gillespie but I
>think this dates to the early 1950s and not the 40s.
yeah I think Dizzy was mostly known in the 50's
you could be right though, certainly ...
>==============================================
> Mrs Båbymåsh [668 - Neighbøur øf The Beåst]
>"God, grant me SERENITY to deal with problems I can't change,
>COURAGE to face the challenges of all other problems and
>WISDOM to hide the bodies of those who fuck with me."
>
>http://mrs-babymash.dampgirl.com
>==============================================
>
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
"If dolphins are so smart, why do they live in igloos?"
Sig by Kookie Jar 5.98d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
Juan F. Lara
Franklin Harris <fran...@pulpculture.net.nospam> wrote:
> Well, I agree that Jones is "overrated" -- how could anyone with his
> reputation not be?
To be honest, Friz Freleng was my favorite WB/MGM director, and objectively
both Bob Clampett and Tex Avery were better than Chuck Jones. Jones's work
tended to emphasize this cutesy and sappy pathos that made his cartoons not as
unny as the other directors' work. I think this was especially true of his
"Tom and Jerry" cartoons. But his best work, like "One Froggy Evening" doesn't
have any of that pathos.
- Juan F. Lara
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~jfl/intro.html
ANIM8Rfsk
on of how a racist Walt supposingly was, and this answered with something to
the effect of "Spike, how do you know Walt was a racist? He wasn't. I knew Walt
and you never meet him." >>
YES!
Stephen W. Worth
dish...@aol.com (DishRoom1) wrote:
> I once saw a special air on ABC last December
The network this special aired on should tell you something about
the bias of the documentary.
I saw a documentary on the life of L Ron Hubbard at a Scientology
exhibit once. It made him look pretty good too.
G&L
Jim Bennie wrote:
> In <3C794656...@telus.net>, G&L <hous...@telus.net> wrote:
> > I've never seen Angel Puss. I don't doubt what you said about it.
>
> `Angel Puss'? Lord, the body's not even cold and already someone's
> playing the race card on you, Gerard?
No. You didn't read my post. I love Chuck Jones. HE IS my favorite
director. I said he regretted the racist era as I heard him say.
Stereotypes were socially acceptable (I would even suspect to those who
considered themselves liberal) thus little explanation was needed for
characaters.
BTW: a correction; I meant to say ..."more ignorant RATHER than card
carrying KKK members." Sorry if this confused you.
I am not polarised to play favorites. I love Clampett too.
I said I was glad I didn't see his pre 48s eluding to that if I saw his
racial cartoons as a brash know-it-all student I may've put him on the
spot....which i'd feel completely stupid if I had.
> It boils down to this ... and I can probably say this for all the
> Warners directors of the 40s and 50s .. Chuck Jones made some cartoons
> I wasn't crazy about. But Chuck Jones and his merrie unit made some
> cartoons I laughed in 1962 and laugh at in 2002. He gave the gift of
> laughter.
>
> That's a pretty damned good gift. I appreciate it. And I hope I always
> will, because we all sure need it.
>
> Jim
Amen
Gerard
G&L
> In <3C794656...@telus.net>, GAL <hous...@telus.net> wrote:
> > I've never seen Angel Puss. I don't doubt what you said about it.
>
> Angel Puss'? Lord, the body's not even cold and already someone's
> playing the race card on you, Gerald?
Also the original poster described "CJ at his meanest".
I was trying to prove he wasn't being malicious.
Gerard
Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1
>any of the major directors at Warner Bros. Clampett's ratio
>of hits to misses was the highest. Freleng was extremely
>consistent, if a bit bland. Avery pretty much established
>what a director at Warners was, and even his worst cartoons
>provided conventions that the other directors mined for years
>after he was gone. Jones ran hot and cold. His cartoons were
>either incredibly great, or unbearable to watch. More than
>any other director, he relied on recycling ideas and remaking
>the same cartoon over and over with minor variations. This
>isn't a good thing, but it was good at imprinting certain
>characters and situations as icons in people's minds.
>
>
Well, this is subjective -- I've never more than chuckled at an Avery
cartoon (although I readily recognize his gags and takes that were absorbed by
everyone), and only a few of Clampetts are genuinely funny to me -- but TONS of
Chuck Jones stuff makes me laugh.
To each his own, I guess. As a grown man who has seen as many cartoons as
anybody, I know what I like, and I like Chuck Jones.
-Aaron!
(Although, with Warners, the importance of the music and voices cannot be
overstated.)
--------------------
In Memory of
Chuck Jones
1912--2002
G&L
Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1 wrote:
>
> Well, this is subjective -- I've never more than chuckled at an Avery
> cartoon (although I readily recognize his gags and takes that were absorbed by
> everyone), and only a few of Clampetts are genuinely funny to me -- but TONS of
> Chuck Jones stuff makes me laugh.
>
> To each his own, I guess. As a grown man who has seen as many cartoons as
> anybody, I know what I like, and I like Chuck Jones.
>
Before I even knew who Tex was, ten years earlier.....like when I was seven, I
remember busting a gut at homesteader Droopy and Three Littles Pups. ARound the
same time before I drew the connection between the guy who was credited as Robert
and the guy in the Cecil and Beany theme I remember rolling with laughter and tears
to Corny Concerto.
CJ 's cartoons were on more frequent as the MGM and pre 48 wb packages were rarely
seen on our TV. But the first time I saw What's Opera Doc (on TV) I was in my early
20s. I didn't know I was supposed to like it; that it was CJ's favorite; I didn't
remember reading about it but it blew me away. I thought it was a new cartoon. That
sealed it for CJ being my favorite. Now here's where I say," I wish I could create
something that 'faggy'!"
Gerard
Stephen W. Worth
aaro...@aol.combizarro (Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1 ) wrote:
> Well, this is subjective -- I've never more than chuckled at an Avery
> cartoon (although I readily recognize his gags and takes that were
> absorbed by everyone), and only a few of Clampetts are genuinely funny
> to me -- but TONS of Chuck Jones stuff makes me laugh.
Why do you find Avery and Clampett cartoons unfunny and Jones's
cartoons funny? Is there something in the Avery and Clampett
cartoons that you don't get, or is there something in the Jones
ones that you find particularly funny?
Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1
>Why do you find Avery and Clampett cartoons unfunny and Jones's
>cartoons funny? Is there something in the Avery and Clampett
>cartoons that you don't get, or is there something in the Jones
>ones that you find particularly funny?
Avery cartoons are, by-and-large, less about character and more about
over-the-top sight gags and takes. I enjoy slapstick as much as the next guy
but I find it more powerful, humor-wise, when coming from a well-established
character (ie Oliver Hardy stepping on a tack will always be funnier than some
wacky guy stepping on a tack). Clampett was wild but also stuck with
characters pretty well, particularly his Daffy shorts, which also rank among my
favorites; it may be that I don't find as many Clampetts funny simply because
he didn't produce as many as Jones.
I did mention -- in an earlier, possibly unrelated post -- the importance of
the voice and music in the Warner cartoons. Voice in particular, for you can
fudge a little on Bugs's snout, ears etc. but that voice needs to be spot-on or
it falls flat. Jones's cartoons move a little slower and play up to those
voices and characters of whom I am most fond.
Although -- I've always been extremely fond of Tom and Jerry when Hanna and
Barbera were working with them early on; the pacing isn't too crazy but not too
slow either. Speeds up and slows down as appropriate. The takes are just wild
enough and the characters are reserved enough when "at rest" for the takes to
register as being both extreme and funny without looking like exercises in how
"wacky" a cartoon can look.
I guess the long and short of it is -- I like slapstick but I prefer it when
it stems from a well-established and developed character, and Tex didn't work
with a lot of those.
-Aaron!
Jaime J. Weinman
> To be honest, Friz Freleng was my favorite WB/MGM director, and objectively
> both Bob Clampett and Tex Avery were better than Chuck Jones.
I don't know about "objectively." You might think their cartoons
were on the whole better, but that's a subjective judgement.
Personally, I prefer Freleng and Avery to Jones on the whole, but
definitely not Clampett. I actually had something in my Jones article
a couple of years ago (cut for lack of space) to the effect that
Clampett is even more overrated than Jones but for different reasons
-- namely that Clampett had no "decline phase" to his career at WB,
and specifically he left before he'd had to adapt to the more sedate
postwar style of tighter budgets and more emphasis on recurring
characters (before 1946, units tended to share characters; after 1946,
there was more emphasis on having each unit come up with its own
"formula" characters -- a style Clampett was beginning to adapt to by
creating the Goofy Gophers and planning to turn Tweety into a
continuing series, a plan taken over by Freleng after he left). So
when it comes to theatrical cartoons, Clampett gets judged on his work
from 1938 to 1946, while Jones or Freleng gets judged on many more
cartoons made over a far longer stretch of time. (You could argue
that since Clampett was ahead of Jones up to 1946, he would have
remained ahead; on the other hand, he might have wound up like some of
Avery's loud, unpleasant and formulaic early '50s cartoons; the
postwar style favored "quieter" directors, like Jones, more than
"frenetic" directors.) I'm not saying Clampett wasn't a great
director, and Jones' obvious grudge against him was appalling; but
Clampett was hardly the Second Coming either, and I'd say that (IMO of
course) Jones made more great cartoons. (Even some of Jones'
early-ish cartoons, after he finally figured out how to be funny, mean
more to me than Clampett's -- I find "My Favorite Duck" much funnier
than most of the Daffy cartoons Clampett was making around the same
time.)
Anyway, I shouldn't be repeating my mistake of doing the
"comparisons" and "reputations" thing. So if I might list nine of my
favourite Jones cartoons:
- SUPER-RABBIT (1943) -- The scene with Bugs and "Cottontail Smith"
changing places as they hop (ending with Cottontail in place of his
horse) never fails to crack me up.
- HAIR-RAISING HARE (1946) -- My desert-island Bugs cartoon.
- INKI AT THE CIRCUS (1947) -- Probably the best Inki cartoon, all
things considered; typically weird without letting the weirdness crowd
out funny gags. Does anyone else think the origin of the Mynah Bird
would make a good fan-fiction story?
- FAST AND FURRY-OUS (1949) -- Controversy still reigns over whether
the Road Runner series takes formula to a new and weird level or is
just plain formulaic (I personally think Jones got a surprising amount
of variety into this rigid format). But whatever you think of the
series, this pilot cartoon is a delight: At once a parody of chase
cartoons and their apotheosis. If it hadn't led to a series, it would
be remembered as one of the best one-shot cartoons ever made.
- THE DUCKSTERS (1950) -- Probably the talkiest cartoon WB ever made,
and one of the funniest (proof that you can never have "too much
dialogue" if the dialogue is really good). Brilliant both as parody
and as one of the last of the many "Daffy torments Porky, but Porky
wins out at the very end" cartoons.
- DOG GONE SOUTH (1950) -- Too many funny moments, but just the first
sight of Belvedere running out of his doghouse, his huge front
followed by his tiny little hind legs, is a classic.
- CHEESE CHASERS (1951) -- 1951 was probably Jones' golden year --
there's hardly a Jones cartoon from 1951 that's less than brilliant,
and it provided the last hurrahs for some of his best characters, like
Charlie Dog, the Three Bears, and, in this cartoon, Hubie and Bertie.
It's too bad he didn't do more with them, since this may be their
funniest outing, with plenty of opportunity for Jones' distinctive
facial expressions at their best.
- NO BARKING (1954) -- All of the Frisky and Claude cartoons are
marvelous, but this one is the only one I've seen with an audience in
a theatre, so I'll pick it in memory of the *incredible* audience
response it got.
- RABBIT'S FEAT (1961) -- One of the best of Jones' post-'55 cartoons,
a very charming tribute to the early Bugs cartoons (which thankfully
means a screwy rather than blabbermouth Bugs), and for once the
slowish pace seems to work, at least for me. (NOTE: Though there's no
story credit on this one, I've always had the impression that Mike
Maltese did it but that his credit was removed due to his having left
WB; I don't know if I'm right on that one.)
Jim Bennie
Worth) wrote:
> In article <20020226113109...@mb-mm.aol.com>,
> aaro...@aol.combizarro (Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1 ) wrote:
> > Well, this is subjective -- I've never more than chuckled at an Avery
> > cartoon (although I readily recognize his gags and takes that were
> > absorbed by everyone), and only a few of Clampetts are genuinely funny
> > to me -- but TONS of Chuck Jones stuff makes me laugh.
> Why do you find Avery and Clampett cartoons unfunny and Jones's
> cartoons funny? Is there something in the Avery and Clampett
> cartoons that you don't get, or is there something in the Jones
> ones that you find particularly funny?
Steve, I defy Aaron to go to a theatre, watch "Magical Maestro"
on the big screen and not laugh. The gag timing is incredible and
some of it is lost on the small screen.
Jim
Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1
>on the big screen and not laugh. The gag timing is incredible and
>some of it is lost on the small screen.
>
>
This is purely personal tastes. Having Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck or any major
Mel Blanc character being performed BY Mel Blanc automatically elevates a
cartoon in my eyes. That's where my objectivity and all the stuff that's
"supposed" to be funny fails me and me being an unabashed Bugs Bunny and Daffy
Duck fan takes over.
DishRoom1
I wrote --
>> I once saw a special air on ABC last December
>
>The network this special aired on should tell you something about
>the bias of the documentary.
>
>I saw a documentary on the life of L Ron Hubbard at a Scientology
>exhibit once. It made him look pretty good too.
>
Scientology was one thing. We're talking about a guy from the Golden Age of
filmmaking who used his skills to entertain people. Even the Walt Disney 100th
anniversary special had some admittance that he can be a grumpy guy at times,
and that he can push his animators hard. But the bigotry allegations were
dismissed by those who once knew Walt as false.
Why is it that you seem to hit badly on every figure in the history of the
animation industry but John K.?
John Shughart
Chris Beilby
> animation industry but John K.?
Because he knows that he'll get fired if he bashes John K.
Chris (who personally can't stand Stephen Worth's self importance and ego)
Jim Bennie
>>Steve, I defy Aaron to go to a theatre, watch "Magical Maestro"
>>on the big screen and not laugh. The gag timing is incredible and
>>some of it is lost on the small screen.
> This is purely personal tastes. Having Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck or any major
> Mel Blanc character being performed BY Mel Blanc automatically elevates a
> cartoon in my eyes. That's where my objectivity and all the stuff that's
> "supposed" to be funny fails me and me being an unabashed Bugs Bunny and Daffy
> Duck fan takes over.
Which really doesn't have anything to do with the comment above,
unless you're saying a cartoon isn't funny unless Mel Blanc is
in it (and I'll pass on 'Captain Caveman' myself).
Jim
dyskolos
"Juan F. Lara" wrote:
Jones' cartoons at their worst are repetitive catalogues of sadism. Which is not
in itself a bad thing. He often slapped on that veneer of big-eyed cutesy-pie
pathos to relieve the horror of unremitting cruelty the characters inflicted on
often innocent and unsuspecting victims. I cite specifically his two mouse
characters whose greatest pleasure is to torture and drive to insanity a cat which
never once made an aggressive move. I am unable to laugh at most Chuck Jones
cartoons, and marvel at the adulation they inspire.
Jim Bennie
>> Why is it that you seem to hit badly on every figure in the history of the
>> animation industry but John K.?
> Because he knows that he'll get fired if he bashes John K.
Well, Chris, I don't think Steve "hits badly" on Bob Clampett.
Bob isn't going to fire him :)
And he doesn't like cartoons butchered. So that's two points in
his favour.
I do wish he'd pick another word than "faggy."
Jim
Stephen W. Worth
aaro...@aol.combizarro (Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1 ) wrote:
> Avery cartoons are, by-and-large, less about character and more about
> over-the-top sight gags and takes.
You might say that about some of his MGM films, excepting the
character of Spike and his numerous one shot cartoons, but at
Warners that isn't true at all. Avery's films pretty much
defined the characters of Bugs and Daffy, and Porky for that
matter... I can't think of a more characterful tour de force
than A Wild Hare. Porky's Duck Hunt was a lot more than just
sight gags, and the B&W Avery Porky cartoons have been full
of personality too. The only films I can think of that fit your
description are the travelogue films, but blackout sight gags
were the format for those films.
> Clampett was wild but also stuck with characters pretty well,
> particularly his Daffy shorts, which also rank among my
> favorites; it may be that I don't find as many Clampetts funny
> simply because he didn't produce as many as Jones.
One thing my boss pointed out to me is the importance of trying
to get a feel for the continuity of the work. If you take all
of the films from a particular director, and assemble them on
tapes in release order, you can tell a lot about the artist
that you wouldn't know otherwise.
With Clampett, it is absolutely astounding how consistent his
output was. Aside from a couple of cheater cartoons and one or
two in Avery's travelogue format, every single film he did was
good. The most impressive thing is how utterly *different* each
cartoon is. As time went by, his output became even more varied,
and exhibited even higher quality. When he left Warners, he was
at an absolute peak.
Jones is completely different. His earliest cartoons are just
plain slow. He tries to ape Disney with none of Disney's surface
finesse. At a certain point, he starts imitating Clampett's take
on the characters, and his films get truly great. He pushes it
even further in films like Dover Boys, a truly visionary film.
But sprinkled in there are a few of the same old slow cartoons.
It's as if he has this idea stuck in his head of what he wants
to do, but he just can't make it work.
When Clampett leaves, the pace slows down again, but the high
level of draftsmanship remains. By this time, Jones is so
familiar with the characters that he really can't completely
change them much. When the studio closes and reopens, Jones's
films take a dive. He retreats into formula. He makes the
same cartoon over and over with minor variations. Instead of
creating something completely new, like Dover Boys, he makes
endless variations on Pepe le Pew and Roadrunner. He subtly
shifts the emphasis of Bugs and Daffy away from being a
"stinker" and a "nut case", into being a "sly schemer" and
a "brazen schemer". It might have been his way of injecting
some of his own personality into the cartoons, but it ends
up taking away a lot of the appeal of the characters.
Jones had a high level of design and draftsmanship in his
unit up until the end, at the expense of McKimson. But the
ideas behind the cartoons go cold by the mid fifties.
> Voice in particular, for you can fudge a little on Bugs's snout,
> ears etc. but that voice needs to be spot-on or it falls flat.
Hmmm... I don't know if model is any different between drawing
or voice. For a character to seem alive, you need to bend it
expressively. Bugs's yelling voice is quite different than
his speaking voice, and "What's up Doc?" sounds completely
different than "Monsters lead such INNN-teresting lives!"
The trick is to make the audience identify with the character.
If you can engage them and make them believe, you can bend
the character all over the place.
> Jones's cartoons move a little slower and play up to those
> voices and characters of whom I am most fond.
That may be the real reason there. These cartoons were designed
to be watched as a part of an overall program. Avery and Clampett
took full advantage of every frame of the 7 minutes they had
to work with. Jones took his time, using long pauses and blinks
to the camera to stop the action and say "hey look at me... I'm
about to say something funny." Disney had a lot of lulls in his
features to give audiences a chance to relax and warm up to
the character. This approach probably works better when you
string three cartoons together in a half hour program.
Clampett and Avery were working to hit the audience hard in
their seven minutes, knowing there would be a musical short,
a newsreel and a feature to provide contrast. Their cartoons
don't work as well one after another.
> Although -- I've always been extremely fond of Tom and Jerry
> when Hanna and Barbera were working with them early on; the
> pacing isn't too crazy but not too slow either.
That I don't see at all. The mid to late forties Tom & Jerry
cartoons are the fastest paced cartoons every made. They had
split second timing, manic "Clang! Clang! Clang! Went the
Trolley" music, and loud sudden sound effects. These cartoons
are even more difficult to take in sequence than the Avery
and Clampett cartoons because it is all wild chases with none
of the variety that Clampett and Avery had in their work. The
cartoons that most resemble Chuck Jones's approach would be
the Harman Ising cartoons. Barney Bear in particular uses all
of the Oliver Hardy looks to the audience and slow lumbering
pacing that Jones used in his later cartoons.
> I guess the long and short of it is -- I like slapstick but
> I prefer it when it stems from a well-established and developed
> character, and Tex didn't work with a lot of those.
Well, I think that is a misperception. The reason that Tex was
criticized at MGM wasn't because his cartoons lacked character.
He had plenty of engaging characters there. He just didn't
create a "Bugs Bunny" for MGM the way he did for Warners. That
isn't to say that Tex didn't create characters, it's just that
he didn't create the single most versatile and appealing character
*twice*. Can't hold that against him... One Bugs Bunny is more
than just about any other cartoonist can claim.
Stephen W. Worth
> Steve, I defy Aaron to go to a theatre, watch "Magical Maestro"
> on the big screen and not laugh.
There is a ton of personality in that cartoon too. Spike is
pompous without being arrogant, and the magician is cruel
without being mean spirited. The whole sequence of Spike
being run through the mill is silly and fun, it isn't
"giving the asshole the torture he richly deserves" like
the things Daffy was subjected to in some of the later
Jones cartoons.
Stephen W. Worth
aaro...@aol.combizarro (Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1 ) wrote:
> This is purely personal tastes.
Saying you like something better than something else is personal
taste. Having a reason why you like something better is an
opinion. That is why I asked you why you felt that way. I was
interested in hearing the reasons behind your opinion. If you
answered "I don't know, I just like this better", that is all
I need to hear. No point discussing taste... just opinions.
Stephen W. Worth
aaro...@aol.combizarro (Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1 ) wrote:
> Having Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck or any major Mel Blanc character
> being performed BY Mel Blanc automatically elevates a cartoon
> in my eyes.
Mel Blanc voiced Clampett and Avery's Bugs and Daffy films too.
I can see saying you don't like the recent films using the
characters, but there are reasons to dislike those that have
nothing at all to do with Mel Blanc.
Paul Penna
Weinman <ja...@weinmans.com> wrote:
> I actually had something in my Jones article
> a couple of years ago (cut for lack of space) to the effect that
> Clampett is even more overrated than Jones but for different reasons
> -- namely that Clampett had no "decline phase" to his career at WB...
That almost sounds like saying Clampett is overrated because of all the
crappy cartoons he _didn't_ make. Shows what happens when this
overrated/underrated business gets out of hand, to which you allude
later.
> ...and specifically he left before he'd had to adapt to the more sedate
> postwar style of tighter budgets and more emphasis on recurring
> characters (before 1946, units tended to share characters; after 1946,
> there was more emphasis on having each unit come up with its own
> "formula" characters -- a style Clampett was beginning to adapt to by
> creating the Goofy Gophers and planning to turn Tweety into a
> continuing series, a plan taken over by Freleng after he left)
Is that an established fact, i.e., that it was his intention to make a
series out of the Goofy Gophers?
> (You could argue
> that since Clampett was ahead of Jones up to 1946, he would have
> remained ahead; on the other hand, he might have wound up like some of
> Avery's loud, unpleasant and formulaic early '50s cartoons; the
> postwar style favored "quieter" directors, like Jones, more than
> "frenetic" directors.)
Hence the pointlesness of relying on speculation to support another
rather pointless pursuit: the assignment of precise "greatness points."
Either the cartoons that do exist are good or they aren't. The
reuptations of the people who made them flows from that.
--
Paul Penna
Stephen W. Worth
dish...@aol.com (DishRoom1) wrote:
> Even the Walt Disney 100th anniversary special had some admittance
> that he can be a grumpy guy at times, and that he can push his
> animators hard. But the bigotry allegations were dismissed by
> those who once knew Walt as false.
Well, from what I'm told, Joe Grant said something in that documentary
that is the exact opposite of what I heard him say in person at an
ASIFA event where he spoke.
> Why is it that you seem to hit badly on every figure in the history
> of the animation industry but John K.?
You aren't paying attention!
I have great respect for Grim Natwick, Bob Clampett, Tex Avery, Rod
Scribner, Jim Tyer, Bill Tytla, Les Clark, Freddie Moore, Manny
Gould, Ralph Bakshi, Bobe Cannon, John Hubley, Art Babbitt, Joe
Barbera, Dave Fleischer, Leo Salkin, George Pal, Ub Iwerks, Walter
Lantz, Bill Nolan, Connie Rasinski, Dick Huemer, Warren Foster,
Otto Messmer, Dick Lundy, Ed Benedict, Preston Blair, Mike Lah...
Shall I take a breath and list some more? I haven't even scratched
the surface yet.
The real question is, why is it that whenever I have any criticism
that someone doesn't like, they throw up the name of my friend?
What does John K. have to do with my opinion of Walt Disney? Besides,
I have great respect for a lot of things Walt did. His handling of
the strike, his friendship with Mussolini, and the racial bigotry
that was common to a lot of people with his upbringing are all
things I don't respect. But that doesn't mean I don't respect
his ability to create a film as great as Dumbo or Snow White,
his masterful casting and development of artists, or his greatest
achievement of all, the creation of the most efficient and
effective system for producing high quality animation ever
created. Walt goes on my list of people I respect for those
things. I'm not going to be gullible enough to take the Disney
Company's word to respect him for being inordinately tolerant
of other races and religions, because that isn't what I have
heard from people who knew him.
John and I share some opinions, and we disagree on others. But
we both know that the other has good reasons for holding his
particular opinions, and we are interested in talking about
those differences. How about you? Do you enjoy sharing opposing
viewpoints, or do you prefer that everyone agree with you?
Stephen W. Worth
<cbe...@hroads.net> wrote:
> Because he knows that he'll get fired if he bashes John K.
I don't bash my friends... do you have any?
Brandi Weed
says...
> [Jones] often slapped on that veneer of big-eyed cutesy-pie
> pathos to relieve the horror of unremitting cruelty the characters inflicted on
> often innocent and unsuspecting victims.
Oddly enough, there's a few Clampett cartoons you can say pretty much the
same thing about.
Brandi ["Porky's Naughty Nephew," anyone?]
Chris Beilby
"Stephen W. Worth" <big...@spumco.com> wrote in message
news:bigshot-2702...@206.225.65.165...
> In article <Nt8f8.117$mf....@sydney.visi.net>, "Chris Beilby"
> <cbe...@hroads.net> wrote:
>
> > Because he knows that he'll get fired if he bashes John K.
>
> I don't bash my friends... do you have any?
Sorry, Stephen, I'm not rising to your flamebait.
Brandi Weed
mod...@modemac.com says...
> It's
> the all-or-nothing way people like Jones are treated that upsets
> me...either he was the greatest, or he was the very worst. Actually,
> Jones was both.
More so than some of the other directors, Jones was, to paraphrase
Michael Medved's(!) assessment of Richard Burton, the pretty little girl
with the pretty little curl: when he was good, he was very very good, and
when he was bad...
Brandi [three words: Good Night Elmer]
Stephen W. Worth
> I do wish he'd pick another word than "faggy."
Effeminate? Prissy? How about if I just say that towards
the end of Jones's run, Bugs Bunny was a little too "Paul
Lynde"?
Paul Penna
<dish...@aol.com> wrote:
> Why is it that you seem to hit badly on every figure in the history of the
> animation industry but John K.?
I see three possible explantions for your asking this question:
1. You haven't been reading very many of his posts; there are scores of
animators he's frequently expressed admiration for, and why.
2. You've read them but it hasn't sunk in.
3. You're deliberately lying in a childish attempt to get even with him
for expressing opinions you disagree with.
--
Paul Penna
Jaime J. Weinman
> Jones' cartoons at their worst are repetitive catalogues of sadism. Which is not
> in itself a bad thing. He often slapped on that veneer of big-eyed cutesy-pie
> pathos to relieve the horror of unremitting cruelty the characters inflicted on
> often innocent and unsuspecting victims. I cite specifically his two mouse
> characters whose greatest pleasure is to torture and drive to insanity a cat which
> never once made an aggressive move.
This is not true of most of the Hubie and Bertie cartoons (in "The
Hypo-Condri-Cat" Claude tries to attack them first; in "Cheese
Chasers" they just want him to *eat* them). And even in "Mouse
Wreckers," we're shown that Claude *would* attack them if they let him
know they're there -- eg we see his "best mouser" trophy. They
torture Claude not for its own sake, but because they're mice, and
he's a cat, and therefore they need to get him out of the house if
they're to live there. Survival of the wittiest. Not sadism at all.
But anyway, if you need to believe in the moral rectitude of a
cartoon before you can laugh at it, so be it. Me, I'm too busy
laughing at Hubie and Bertie and Claude.
Jaime J. Weinman
dyskolos
"Jaime J. Weinman" wrote:
Yeah, but if I dragged you up and down the chimney at the end of a rope you wouldn't be
laffin.
Steve Carras
>From: Modemac mod...@modemac.com
>Date: 2/27/02 4:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <dltq7ugrd6pqu3jla...@4ax.com>
>
>On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:42:51 -0800, dyskolos <dysk...@menander.org>
>wrote:
>>I am unable to laugh at most Chuck Jones
>>cartoons, and marvel at the adulation they inspire.
>
>Duck season!"), at the Road Runner cartoons, a "Feed the Kitty," at
>several Bugs-gets-revenge cartoons like "Homeless Hare" and "Bully for
>Bugs," and a lot of Jones' other cartoons. I said that Jones at his
>worst was unbearably cruel, but Jones at his best was unmatched. It's
>the all-or-nothing way people like Jones are treated that upsets
>me...either he was the greatest, or he was the very worst. Actually,
>Jones was both.
>
Regarding some posts that you've re: Jones and funny sadism, I'll note the
Claude Cat/Frisky Puppy cartoons are nothing like "The Bee-Devilled Bruin's"
closing scene (wherein Henry Bear asks for ketchup...:)), except for what
happens in the first F.P. short, 1950's "Two's a Crowd" where the master voiced
by Mel Blanc and mistress voiced by Bea Benaderet confront Claude, who is being
pounded by the "volcanic" furnace rocks (great A.C.Gamer effects animation..)
and obviously Ken Harris-animated (Duffell, can ya confirm?) of the master,
unseen (unlike "Feline Frame-up") doing his usual "stern master" stuff ("Why
you.."..and STAY OUT!!!!)
Frisky Puppy is NOTHING like Junyer Bear vs Papa Bear..Hubiue and Bertie, the
mice referred to, on the other hand...:_
"You BELIEVED in me..that MEANS something" (Kirsten Dunst, "Bring it On")
"We have an audience.Work with me" (Julia Stiles, Save the Last Dance")
<a href="http://www.daniellemissing.com">Please visit here</a>
Steve Carras
>Date: 2/26/02 9:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <a5hrft$b49$1...@vcn.bc.ca>
Arthur Davis was the previous LT &MM director to die (2000). His best IMO is "A
Hick, A Slick, and a Chick" (March 13, 1948, not the post-1948 date Dec.27 that
is often given 12/27/48), with Stan Freberg, Mel Blanc and Bea Benadaret as the
respective title characters. I wonder what a series with the mice in that would
be like....if "Blackie" (the slick) had remained a mainstay....after Davis left
maybe Jones would take over the characters..or "Bone Sweet Bone's" characters
ahd appeared. BTW on Termite Terrace Trading Post message board there's a
"Favorite Art Davis short" thread. Since I am having trouble uploading posts
and registration, I'll just list the above as best Davis shorts among "Dough
ray meow".They deserved a longer series..:)
Markc65
Bruin's"
>closing scene (wherein Henry Bear asks >for ketchup...:)
I love The Bee-Devilled Bruin!! That ending scene is amazing! It truly
frightened me as a child. It's both funny and menacing at the same time. Only a
great director could make domestic abuse so funny! I can't believe what they
hint at in these cartoons. How did they get away with this stuff? Although the
baby is really a lummox as apposed to being a real child. Now Homer Simpson
stragling Bart, on the other hand, that's disturbing!
Markc65
>same thing about.
>
>Brandi ["Porky's Naughty Nephew," anyone?]
How true. Most of the Clampett cartoons from the thirties have a character who
is insane, much more so than in Avery's pictures. My favorite moment is in The
Daffy Doc when Daffy clobbers himself on the head with a mallet in order to
have a consultation with his two hallucinatory ghost images. Wow!!
The camel with desert madness in Porky In Egypt is good, too.
But I hated Porky's nephew!!! Rotten brat! Clampett finally got this type of
character right with Tweety.
Markc65
>cartoon before you can laugh at it, so be it. Me, I'm too busy
>laughing at Hubie and Bertie and Claude.
I agree. Audiences don't react to the morality of a character, they react to
it's vitality.
Markc65
>wouldn't be
>laffin.
Mel Brooks once said comedy is you falling down an open manhole, tragedy is me
getting a papercut.
DishRoom1
I wrote --
>> Even the Walt Disney 100th anniversary special had some admittance
Well, I do see some few points with your post, Steve. regardless if Walt was
bigoted or not, he *still* was an innovator to some of the greatest animated
films in the history of the gerne. It's like the fact that I can like some of
the old 1960s and 1970s pop music, even if some of the musicians that created
those classic songs smoked pot or were into politics I disagree with. You and
John are right that we should try to agree to be free to disagree. It's just
that its human nature to refuse to admit that everyone has a different idea to
something, and argue to bloody s**t over it till you can't stand each other
painfully anymore. We should work to tame it.
John Shughart
Col. Sphinx Drummond
> "Jaime J. Weinman" wrote:
>
> > > dyskolos <dysk...@menander.org> wrote:
> > > Jones' cartoons at their worst are repetitive catalogues of sadism. Which is not
> > > in itself a bad thing. He often slapped on that veneer of big-eyed cutesy-pie
> > > pathos to relieve the horror of unremitting cruelty the characters inflicted on
> > > often innocent and unsuspecting victims. I cite specifically his two mouse
> > > characters whose greatest pleasure is to torture and drive to insanity a cat which
> > > never once made an aggressive move.
> >
> > This is not true of most of the Hubie and Bertie cartoons...(SNIP)
> > But anyway, if you need to believe in the moral rectitude of a
> > cartoon before you can laugh at it, so be it. Me, I'm too busy
> > laughing at Hubie and Bertie and Claude.
>
> Yeah, but if I dragged you up and down the chimney at the end of a rope you wouldn't be
> laffin.
But you and him ain't cartoon characters.
-Col. Sphinx Drummond TWSR
DishRoom1
I wrote --
>> Why is it that you seem to hit badly on every figure in the history of the
>> animation industry but John K.?
>I see three possible explantions for your asking this question:
>
>1. You haven't been reading very many of his posts; there are scores of
>animators he's frequently expressed admiration for, and why.
>
>2. You've read them but it hasn't sunk in.
>
>3. You're deliberately lying in a childish attempt to get even with him
>for expressing opinions you disagree with.
Some truth with #1 and #2, but #3 is totally untrue. I was trying to find more
meaning with his opinions, if you please do not mind.
John Shughart
Michelle Klein-Hass
(Stephen W. Worth) wrote:
> In article <Nt8f8.117$mf....@sydney.visi.net>, "Chris Beilby"
> <cbe...@hroads.net> wrote:
>
> > Because he knows that he'll get fired if he bashes John K.
>
> I don't bash my friends... do you have any?
Steve has been a very strong independent voice well before he joined up
with Spumco. He is also a wealth of information about tons of
animation-related subjects. It looks like there's a little bit of
anti-Kricfalusi prejudice in both Dishroom and Beilby's comments.
Prejudice cuts both ways.
--.\\<-H--
--
Ms. Geek...terrorizing Usenet since 1992! MCSE on 2K, A+
"Families of Japan, it is not too late to enjoy Turkey with Gravy."
-- Chairman Kaga
"I am not looser than clams!" -- Zoogz Rift
"[D]o not too proud to yourself lady." -- "Biscuits", replying to MKH
Chris Beilby
"Michelle Klein-Hass" <msg...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:msgeek-2802...@192.168.2.93...
> In article <bigshot-2702...@206.225.65.165>, big...@spumco.com
> (Stephen W. Worth) wrote:
>
> > In article <Nt8f8.117$mf....@sydney.visi.net>, "Chris Beilby"
> > <cbe...@hroads.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Because he knows that he'll get fired if he bashes John K.
> >
> > I don't bash my friends... do you have any?
>
> Steve has been a very strong independent voice well before he joined up
> with Spumco. He is also a wealth of information about tons of
> animation-related subjects. It looks like there's a little bit of
> anti-Kricfalusi prejudice in both Dishroom and Beilby's comments.
> Prejudice cuts both ways.
There's no Anti John Krifalusi prejudice in my comments. I love John K's
work. What I cannot stand is Stephen Worth's self inflated, self important,
arrogance. While he may know what he's talking about, I find him to be an
insufferable prick!
Thomas E. Reed
racism as it applies to Chuck Jones and Walt Disney...
>One interviewee, a black man (I forgot his name, and he
>probally was an actor) told a story about being with Spike Lee, and Lee ranted
>on of how a racist Walt supposingly was, and this answered with something to
>the effect of "Spike, how do you know Walt was a racist? He wasn't. I knew Walt
>and you never meet him."
I suspect that reflects, not so much on Disney, but on Spike Lee, who
has been playing the race card for a long time. His theme song has
been, "Love my films or you're a racist!"
It's valuable to ask "Who speaks for the black community?" when you
start calling someone a racist. Then ask, "Who speaks for the white
community?" You realize that it's all individual opinions in the end,
and about some people, it's hard to figure whether they're racists or
not.
After a system blowup, it's new since 2/27/02...
Hanna-Barbara's only superstar and the cursed #3...
Tom Reed's Off-Model...http://www.off-model.com
Paul Penna
<cbe...@hroads.net> wrote:
> There's no Anti John Krifalusi prejudice in my comments. I love John K's
> work. What I cannot stand is Stephen Worth's self inflated, self important,
> arrogance. While he may know what he's talking about, I find him to be an
> insufferable prick!
He has strong opinions; when he expresses them, he backs them up with
the specific reasons why he holds them. When other people express their
own strong opinions but don't back them up, he calls them on it. Those
who are unwilling or unable to do so frequently wind up with their
feeling hurt and lash back emotionally. What's your reason?
--
Paul Penna
Steve Carras
>Date: 2/27/02 5:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <bigshot-2702...@206.225.65.165>
>
>In article <a5jqr5$b8$1...@luna.vcn.bc.ca>, Jim Bennie <jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca>
>wrote:
>
>> I do wish he'd pick another word than "faggy."
>
>Effeminate? Prissy? How about if I just say that towards
>the end of Jones's run, Bugs Bunny was a little too "Paul
>Lynde"?
>
>See ya
>Steve
>
In Freleng shorts, Bugs was much too Nancy Kerrigan while Daffy was too much,
well, Tonya Harding (in the showbisz shorts, but alas Daffy did not get to
whack Bugs.Friz, if he'd been still been up to doing new Bugs short in 1994
when the Kerrigan thing was hot, could have done a Daffy and Bugs as ice
skaters (which would make another faggy Bugs..Jones would love it) and Dafdfy
could FINALLY whack the helloutta Bugs!!)
Chris Beilby
> He has strong opinions; when he expresses them, he backs them up with
> the specific reasons why he holds them. When other people express their
> own strong opinions but don't back them up, he calls them on it. Those
> who are unwilling or unable to do so frequently wind up with their
> feeling hurt and lash back emotionally. What's your reason?
My reason is that I happen to feel that the way he expresses those opinions
is condecending and extremely arrogant. This isn't a matter of facts, it's
a matter of perceptions and opinions. I personally feel that he's a jerk
and an asshole. You don't feel that way? Fine. It's your opinion, and
I'll more than willingly agree to disagree. But it is both impossible and
unnecessary to justify opinions.
Jim Bennie
Worth) wrote:
> In article <a5jqr5$b8$1...@luna.vcn.bc.ca>, Jim Bennie <jgbe...@vcn.bc.ca>
> wrote:
> > I do wish he'd pick another word than "faggy."
> Effeminate? Prissy? How about if I just say that towards
> the end of Jones's run, Bugs Bunny was a little too "Paul
> Lynde"?
But, Steve, isn't EVERYONE in Hollywood? ;)
Jim
Paul Penna
<cbe...@hroads.net> wrote:
> My reason is that I happen to feel that the way he expresses those opinions
> is condecending and extremely arrogant. This isn't a matter of facts, it's
> a matter of perceptions and opinions. I personally feel that he's a jerk
> and an asshole. You don't feel that way? Fine. It's your opinion, and
> I'll more than willingly agree to disagree. But it is both impossible and
> unnecessary to justify opinions.
You're mixing up opinions with feelings (or emotions if you prefer).
Emotions can't be justified because they're essentially non-rational
and reflexive. You can't explain _why_ one particular event makes you
laugh but another makes you cry, except by circular logic. ("Why do I
laugh at a guy slipping on a banana peel? Because it's funny. Why is it
funny? Because it makes me laugh.") Emotions like laughter aren't the
result of a rational thought process.
An opinion, on the other hand, is, though many (if not most) people in
the world aren't sufficiently adept at analytical thinking to be able
to identify it as such.
Let's use the banana peel gag as an example:
"Comic A is a better comedian than Comic B because when he slips on a
banana peel it's funnier."
The emotion involved is laughter; we don't need to know why slipping on
a banana peel makes you laugh (probably even you don't know). The
judgement, though, is opinion. We _can_ ask you to describe the
difference in execution of the gag and why those differences are
important.
"Well, comic B always sees the peel first, then slips on it. Comic A
never sees it, just slips. Being caught by surprise heightens the comic
impact for me. The fact that Comic A is aware of this important factor
makes him a better comedian."
A sight gag is a simple example. A more complex endeavor, like an
animated cartoon, is made up of many factors, some of them quite
subtle, and can tax the ability of the intellect to identify and
describe them. Let's face it; it's beyond many people's ability to do
so (or more importantly, beyond their willingness even to _try_.)
So, it _is_ possible to describe why you hold an opinion in such a way
that other people will understand your thought processes, to know _why_
you think as you do. You can call that "justifying" if you want, but
it's really just plain communication.
Now; why do people react to other people's opinions with anger? Whether
you believe it or not, name-calling, like calling someone a "jerk" and
an "asshole," is an expression of anger. What is anger? It's nature's
way of getting you ready to confront and defend yourself against a
threat. It gets the adrenaline flowing, which powers up the muscles to
be able to do things they can't in a relaxed state. It also charges up
the emotions, so that you have the will and desire for combat. So
what's the threat here? Animals react to physical threats to themselves
or their offspring. But human beings also have psyches which are, if
anything, even more fragile than their physical bodies. Yes, when you
get angry over something someone says, it's because you feel threatened
(hence the phrase, "Them's fightin' words.")
So what's being threatened? Well, given that so many people confuse
opinions with feelings, they think that the expression of a contrary
opinion is automatically an attack against them personally. Therefore,
a request to support an opinion becomes, in their minds, a demand to
justify their value as a human being. Under those circumstances, a
feeling of resentment is inevitable.
So, if all you say is "Comic A is a better comedian than Comic B," and
I respond, "No, Comic B is better because he sees the banana and steps
on it anyway. He's a genius at portraying sheer goofiness. What makes
you think Comic A is a better comedian?", what's your response to that?
First, are you even able to perceive, understand and evaluate the
difference in execution of the gag that makes it funnier to you, and if
so, are you able to relate that in a way that I can understand? If the
answer is yes, then communication results. If the answer is no, all
you'll know is that you're being challenged. Your only recourse is to
fall back on the response-to-threat reaction. You may also feel that
the person who _is_ able to do those things, and do them well, is
merely attempting to lord it over you. Again, resentment, leading to
anger, is the result.
"...it is both impossible and unnecessary to justify opinions," you
said. I've shown why I think it's possible. Necessary? Only if you
think the exchange of ideas is important and/or entertaining. A mere
listing of opinions is boring; hearing _why_ people hold their opinions
is where the educational and fun part comes in.
--
Paul Penna
Chris Beilby
Mr. Penna's reply to this post has been responded to off the newsgroup, and
I personally feel that any further communications regarding this subject
should stay off of the group as well. Suffice it to say that I have my
opinions of Mr. Worth, and they are not likely to change at any time in the
near future. Also, my opinions of Mr. Penna have been formed as well as a
result of this incident, and again are unlikely to change.
Markc65
>own strong opinions but don't back them up, he calls them on it. Those
>who are unwilling or unable to do so frequently wind up with their
>feeling hurt and lash back emotionally.
Oh yeah!?! Sez you!!!
Stephen W. Worth
<cbe...@hroads.net> wrote:
> I personally feel that he's a jerk and an asshole.
Hey! Wait a minute! Stick with "insufferable prick". I liked that
a lot better. I printed it out and carried it around the studio
showing it to everyone. John said I should get a brass nameplate
for my desk that reads "Stephen W. Worth, Insufferable Prick".
> You don't feel that way? Fine. It's your opinion, and
> I'll more than willingly agree to disagree. But it is both
> impossible and unnecessary to justify opinions.
The only opinions that are impossible and unnecessary to
justify are baseless ones. Thanks for playing though, and
we have some lovely parting gifts...
Stephen W. Worth
<cbe...@hroads.net> wrote:
> Mr. Penna's reply to this post has been responded to off the
> newsgroup, and I personally feel that any further communications
> regarding this subject should stay off of the group as well.
Oh no! You are the one who made a public ad hominem attack.
You can't slink off and pretend it didn't happen now!
If you are going to parade your foolishness around in its
underwear, do it in public where we can all enjoy it! Let's
see some specific citations to back up your opinion that I
am a bounder, a cad and an upstart! I may very well be all
those horrible things. It would tickle me to be reminded of
my accomplishments.
> Suffice it to say that I have my opinions of Mr. Worth, and they
> are not likely to change at any time in the near future. Also,
> my opinions of Mr. Penna have been formed as well as a
> result of this incident, and again are unlikely to change.
When everyone around you seems to be acting like an horse's
ass, the chances are very good that *YOU* are the horse's ass!
Stephen W. Worth
<tter...@sonic.net> wrote:
> "...it is both impossible and unnecessary to justify opinions," you
> said. I've shown why I think it's possible. Necessary? Only if you
> think the exchange of ideas is important and/or entertaining. A mere
> listing of opinions is boring; hearing _why_ people hold their opinions
> is where the educational and fun part comes in.
Brilliant!
I saved this one.
Stephen W. Worth
> But, Steve, isn't EVERYONE in Hollywood? ;)
Only at Disney!
Paul Penna
<big...@spumco.com> wrote:
> Brilliant!
>
> I saved this one.
Unfortunately, it seems to have earned me the silver in the
Insufferable Prick finals. You got any more of them badges on you?
--
Paul Penna
Chris Beilby
> ass, the chances are very good that *YOU* are the horse's ass!
Yes, but at least I KNOW that I can be a horse's ass! You don't seem to.
At any rate, you have just crossed the line, Mr. Worth. I was avoiding
killfiling you because of the fact that you are indeed quite knowlegable
about animation. However, your last several posts have changed that
opinion. You can keep company with Mr. Penna in my killfile now.
Paul Penna
<cbe...@hroads.net> wrote:
> Yes, but at least I KNOW that I can be a horse's ass! You don't seem to.
> At any rate, you have just crossed the line, Mr. Worth. I was avoiding
> killfiling you because of the fact that you are indeed quite knowlegable
> about animation. However, your last several posts have changed that
> opinion. You can keep company with Mr. Penna in my killfile now.
Like I was saying...
--
Paul Penna
Stephen W. Worth
<cbe...@hroads.net> wrote:
> Yes, but at least I KNOW that I can be a horse's ass!
That makes three of us!
> At any rate, you have just crossed the line, Mr. Worth. I was avoiding
> killfiling you because of the fact that you are indeed quite knowlegable
> about animation. However, your last several posts have changed that
> opinion. You can keep company with Mr. Penna in my killfile now.
Well, I guess I get Silver in the killfile competition...
Anyone care to go for Bronze? (Where is Amid Amidi when
you need him?!)
See ya (but you won't see me!)
Steve (the Insufferable Prick)
Stephen W. Worth
<tter...@sonic.net> wrote:
Hi Paul,
He can't hear us now... Do you think we made him cry?
Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1
>character of Spike and his numerous one shot cartoons, but at
>Warners that isn't true at all. Avery's films pretty much
>defined the characters of Bugs and Daffy, and Porky for that
>matter... I can't think of a more characterful tour de force
>than A Wild Hare. Porky's Duck Hunt was a lot more than just
>sight gags, and the B&W Avery Porky cartoons have been full
>of personality too. The only films I can think of that fit your
>description are the travelogue films, but blackout sight gags
>were the format for those films.
Well -- perhaps the case is, then, that I don't prefer his Bugs and Daffy to
what was done with the characters after they were more well-developed.
Certainly I enjoy Clampett's Bugs and Daffy cartoons far more than anything
Avery did with the characters.
>When the studio closes and reopens, Jones's
>films take a dive. He retreats into formula. He makes the
>same cartoon over and over with minor variations. Instead of
>creating something completely new, like Dover Boys, he makes
>endless variations on Pepe le Pew and Roadrunner. He subtly
>shifts the emphasis of Bugs and Daffy away from being a
>"stinker" and a "nut case", into being a "sly schemer" and
>a "brazen schemer". It might have been his way of injecting
>some of his own personality into the cartoons, but it ends
>up taking away a lot of the appeal of the characters.
>Jones had a high level of design and draftsmanship in his
>unit up until the end, at the expense of McKimson. But the
>ideas behind the cartoons go cold by the mid fifties.
I'll agree with you there. The Jones stuff I enjoy is all pre-shutdown, and
the draftsmanship is another draw for me.
I'll again mention that the voices make all the difference in a lot of these
cartoons and, along with the music, will absolutely make or break a cartoon as
far as being funny goes -- and that contributes perhaps just as much to my
enjoyment of Chuck's films as the fact that Chuck directed them.
>That
>isn't to say that Tex didn't create characters, it's just that
>he didn't create the single most versatile and appealing character
>*twice*.
Fair enough -- but nothing he did at MGM ever raises more than a chuckle
from me. His Spike cartoons aren't funny, King-Sized Canary isn't funny,
Droopy Dog isn't funny, Screwy Squirell isn't funny. Maybe I'm just an
unabashed Bugs Bunny fan.
-Aaron
--------------------
In Memory of
Chuck Jones
1912--2002
Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1
>unless you're saying a cartoon isn't funny unless Mel Blanc is
>in it (and I'll pass on 'Captain Caveman' myself).
I'm saying I don't enjoy the cartoon "Magical Maestro" and hearing Captain
Caveman scream his name would in fact incite a giggle from me.
Take from that what you will.
-Aaron!
Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1
>pompous without being arrogant, and the magician is cruel
>without being mean spirited. The whole sequence of Spike
>being run through the mill is silly and fun, it isn't
>"giving the asshole the torture he richly deserves" like
>the things Daffy was subjected to in some of the later
>Jones cartoons.
The cartoon simply isn't funny to me. He's on stage, and the magician is
doing these things to him, and Spike undergoes all these different
transformations which although silly just aren't amusing to me. I usually get
to the point where he's dressed as a Hawaiian before I change the channel or
hit fast-forward.
He has personality, sure, and I'm not saying it's a BAD cartoon. I'm just
saying it isn't funny as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather watch Jabberjaw.
-Aaron
(Maybe that's a little extreme...)
Paul Penna
<big...@spumco.com> wrote:
> In article <010320021734343675%tter...@sonic.net>, Paul Penna
> <tter...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <PyVf8.159$mf....@sydney.visi.net>, Chris Beilby
> > <cbe...@hroads.net> wrote:
> > > You can keep company with Mr. Penna in my killfile now.
> >
> > Like I was saying...
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> He can't hear us now... Do you think we made him cry?
Holding his breath and turning purple is my guess.
--
Paul Penna
IPRC Info
Asshole boss, to be sure, but not exactly a slave driver. He stole a lot of
credit and never praised anyone in public, but for some reason, he inspired
a lot of loyalty among some employees. Others got tired of his shit and
went to "lesser" studios, some rebelled and went on strike.
> and possibly (unconfirmed slanderous rumor) anti-Semitic as well.
One story claims that a Disney animator decided to leave for the Fleischer
studios. Walt called him into his office and launched into a tirade, ending
with putting on a stereotypical Jewish accent and saying, "Dat's vere you
belonk, vit dose Choose!" (Can't remember the book I read that one in -- if
it's "Walt Disney: Hollywood's Dark Prince," then never mind.)
But he made the monorail run on time.
ignatz topolino
Joe Cosby
that kinda sums it up
The ideal leader in a hallucinatory world.
Something to be proud of; or something.
Him and madonna.
>ignatz topolino
>
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
"Your diplomacy is higher than mine!"
"He was being diplomatic and not saying so."
-- Big Gay Gaming Group
Sig by Kookie Jar 5.98d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
Stephen W. Worth
aaro...@aol.combizarro (Aaron Mojo Hazouri or Bizarro No 1 ) wrote:
> The cartoon simply isn't funny to me. He's on stage, and the magician is
> doing these things to him, and Spike undergoes all these different
> transformations which although silly just aren't amusing to me.
Maybe you are more conversationally literate than visually
literate. I have had discussions with people in the past
who admitted that they really only laughed at dialogue and
situations, never at funny drawings or surprising ways that
a character moves. I think there is "funny drawing blindness"
just like "color blindness".
Jim Bennie
Worth) wrote:
> Maybe you are more conversationally literate than visually
> literate. I have had discussions with people in the past
> who admitted that they really only laughed at dialogue and
> situations, never at funny drawings or surprising ways that
> a character moves. I think there is "funny drawing blindness"
> just like "color blindness".
Steve, it's possible. My favourite parts of 'Rabbit Seasoning'
and the other two are the dialogue. I don't find what happens
to Daffy's face particularly amusing.
And even the directors themselves seemed to have different definitions
of "funny drawing". I gather from what I've read, Bob McKimson really
didn't like the Clampett and Tashlin extremes, and even didn't like
the Fleisher Popeyes, which I quite enjoy.
As for 'Magical Maestro', it isn't just the drawings - it's the
timing that works with them. And I think some of that gets lost
on a small screen, having seen it in a theatre and on TV.
Jim
Stephen W. Worth
> And even the directors themselves seemed to have different definitions
> of "funny drawing". I gather from what I've read, Bob McKimson really
> didn't like the Clampett and Tashlin extremes, and even didn't like
> the Fleisher Popeyes, which I quite enjoy.
I don't know about Clampett and Tashlin, but I can understand why
a person who drew like McKimson wouldn't like Fleischer. The New
York drawing style was very calligraphic, with lots of cartoon
conventions. A solid drawer like McKimson would have seen that
as cheating. The extremes in the early McKimson Foghorn cartoons
are just as wild as in Clampett and Tashlin's.
Markc65
>a person who drew like McKimson wouldn't like Fleischer. The New
>York drawing style was very calligraphic, with lots of cartoon
>conventions. A solid drawer like McKimson would have seen that
>as cheating. The extremes in the early McKimson Foghorn cartoons
>are just as wild as in Clampett and
>Tashlin's.
In an interview in the book American Animated Cartoons, McKimson said of Tex
Avery's work at M-G-M, "A lot of it was crude and overdone. That's the way Tex
always thought. He always wanted everything overdone."
In Mike Barrier's book Hollywood Cartoons, Clampett says of McKimson's role as
head animator in his unit that, "(His) control became abrassive. It stopped any
experimentation."
When he took charge of Tashlin's unit, McKimson said, "they were used to
overanimating, and I had to calm them down."
"After he started calming down more," McKimson said of Scribner, "he was a much
better animator."
McKimson's style of directing was much more similar to Jones' than to
Clampett's or Tashlin's. He did lots of layout drawings and expected his
animators to strictly adhere to them, unlike Clampett who gave animators like
Scribner more freedom to experiment.
Stephen W. Worth
(Markc65) wrote:
> In an interview in the book American Animated Cartoons, McKimson said of Tex
> Avery's work at M-G-M, "A lot of it was crude and overdone. That's the way Tex
> always thought. He always wanted everything overdone."
>
> In Mike Barrier's book Hollywood Cartoons, Clampett says of McKimson's role as
> head animator in his unit that, "(His) control became abrassive. It
stopped any
> experimentation."
>
> When he took charge of Tashlin's unit, McKimson said, "they were used to
> overanimating, and I had to calm them down."
>
> "After he started calming down more," McKimson said of Scribner, "he was
a much
> better animator."
Heheh... All of these quotes are wrong! Proves that even the guys
who were there can't figure it all out.
Jim Bennie
Worth) wrote:
> Heheh... All of these quotes are wrong! Proves that even the guys
> who were there can't figure it all out.
I'm presuming, Steve, you mean the opinions expressed in the quotes
are wrong. I doubt you're saying they're misquoted.
To me, it simply proves different directors have different tastes in
animation.
Jim
Markc65
>who were there can't figure it all out.
Really? Do you mean the people who interviewed McKimson and Clampett misquoted
them? Do you know what they really said?
Stephen W. Worth
> I'm presuming, Steve, you mean the opinions expressed in the quotes
> are wrong. I doubt you're saying they're misquoted.
I'm sure all of them said that in just about that context, except
Clampett. He had great respect for McKimson and cast him in his
films brilliantly. He obviously appreciated his unique abilities
enough to exploit them to their fullest. I would bet that he was
talking about McKimson's personality there, not his drawing style.
Just as a general caveat... I would take some of the stuff in
Barrier's book with a heaping tablespoon of salt. I read things
in there that I discussed with the same people Barrier discussed
them with, and Barrier appears to completely misunderstand what
they were talking about. The Barrier book is great when it comes
to facts, figures and business aspects of filmmaking. As for the
creative end (like artist's styles, the relative value of one
artist over another, what constitutes good "personality animation"
and even whether a film is good or bad) Barrier's book is a
complete muddle. It appears that he took many contradictory
creative opinions from the subjects of his interviews and
cobbled them together without taking them in context. Barrier
himself is a lawyer, not an artist. His book reflects that.
It would have been a MUCH better book if Barrier had simply
provided historical context in a brief section at the front
of each chapter, and made the bulk of it chunks of complete
interviews word for word. That way, a reader with understanding
of the creative issues being discussed could see the context
in which they were being said, and know who was doing the
talking.
Stephen W. Worth
(Markc65) wrote:
> Really? Do you mean the people who interviewed McKimson and
> Clampett misquoted them?
Principly, I mean that even if they did say them as they appear
out of context like that, the statements aren't true.
Avery's best films were at MGM.
Popeye is one of the greatest cartoon series ever made.
McKimson was a great asset to Clampett's unit.
Scribner's best work was for Clampett.
etc
Markc65
>> Clampett misquoted them?
>
>Principly, I mean that even if they did say them as they appear
>out of context like that, the statements aren't true.
>Avery's best films were at MGM.
>
>Popeye is one of the greatest cartoon series ever made.
>
>McKimson was a great asset to Clampett's unit.
>
>Scribner's best work was for Clampett.
I agree with everything you've said about Tex's MGM cartoons, the Popeye
cartoons, and Scribner and McKimson's animation for Clampett.
The quotes I provided of McKimson's regarding these subjects was just to show
his opinion of them, which I happen to disagree with.
McKimson didn't grant that many interviews (or maybe reporters just weren't as
interested in him as they were the other directors), but in the ones he did, he
usually repeated that he thought the work of certain artists were "crude."
Being a superb draftsman and capable of some of the subtlest animation, it's no
wonder he didn't appreciate Avery or Popeye (not that this means their work is
necessarily bad). Even great artists can be opinionated to a fault.
Jim Bennie
wrote:
> McKimson didn't grant that many interviews (or maybe reporters just
> weren't as
> interested in him as they were the other directors), but in the ones he
> did, he
> usually repeated that he thought the work of certain artists were "crude."
Seems to me, Marc, if Bob McKimson were still alive today, he'd be lauded,
feted, and we'd hang on every word of his.
Unfortunately, he spent the latter part of his career making painfully
unfunny cartoons, at a time when no one was doing any kind of interviews
because no one gave two logs in a crapper about the cartoons.
> Being a superb draftsman and capable of some of the subtlest animation,
> it's no
> wonder he didn't appreciate Avery or Popeye (not that this means their work
> is
> necessarily bad). Even great artists can be opinionated to a fault.
As are animation fans.
Jim
Markc65
>feted, and we'd hang on every word of his.
The critic Manny Farber lauded his work in a review for The New Republic, which
I'm going to assume was written sometime in the fifties because of the cartoons
he mentions (none by name), even though sources say the article was written in
1943. Obviously, McKimson wasn't even a director back then.
>Unfortunately, he spent the latter part of his career making painfully
>unfunny cartoons, at a time when no one was doing any kind of interviews
>because no one gave two logs in a crapper about the cartoons.
That's certainly true. I prefer his earlier, wilder cartoons like Hurdy Gurdy
Hare and Birth of a Notion. He died before all these books on the history of
animation became popular. Then again, poor Art Davis lived a long time and
hardly anyone interviewed him.
>>Even great artists can be opinionated to a fault.
>
>As are animation fans.
I certainly am opinionated, but I hope not to a fault.
Stephen W. Worth
(Markc65) wrote:
> McKimson didn't grant that many interviews (or maybe reporters
> just weren't as interested in him as they were the other directors)
He died before anyone really knew who any of them were, unfortunately.
Since then, the level of journalistic quality when it comes to film
history has jumped by leaps and bounds. In some of these early
interviews, a lot of the fault can be put on the interviewers not
really knowing the right questions to ask.
> Even great artists can be opinionated to a fault.
Well, it really isn't a fault. Hearing McKimson say he didn't like
Fleischer says a lot more about McKimson than it does Fleischer.
By the way, I am positive that Clampett really liked New York
cartoons. I see obscure gags from Van Beuren and Fleischer cartoons
turning up in his films.
Stephen W. Worth
(Markc65) wrote:
> Then again, poor Art Davis lived a long time and
> hardly anyone interviewed him.
Unfortunately, Art Davis was in a rest home for a long period,
and wasn't able to remember a lot. Paul Anderson did a series
of interviews with him when he lived in Salt Lake City, but
Paul said there wasn't much in there that was unknown.
Markc65
>cartoons. I see obscure gags from Van Beuren and Fleischer cartoons
>turning up in his films.
One of Clampett's writers, Warren Foster, worked at Fleischer before he went to
Warners. In Mike Barrier's book (and on the Beany and Cecil commentary)
Clampett mentions that the Fleischer gags were good and was happy to hear one
of their writers had been hired by the studio. I don't recall his exact words,
though.