Helmet use and how dangerous are bikes versus cars

[Earl Grey]

Thanks, Grant,

for the link to the TED talk. While the speaker threw out some
interesting numbers, nobody I have read/listened to on either side is
quoting numbers that really let us compare the dangers of biking
versus driving versus walking in urban areas. We need accident (minor
and serious) and death rate per hour driven/ridden/walked to make a
realistic comparison of how dangerous these modes are. 40000 driver/
passenger death per year sounds impressive, but you can't compare it
to bike deaths without knowing numbers of hours spent in cars/on
bikes.

Per hour rather than per mile because people make choices as to where
they live based on the mode of transportation they use, keeping
transit times more or less the same. In other words, someone who bike
commutes isn't going to move 50 miles from his/her work, but someone
who drives wouldn't think twice about it (in North America, at least).
The pain threshold for what is "too far" for any given activity is not
measured in miles, but in time in transit.

Does anyone know where to find these numbers? Would be great to
compare different countries as well.

Thanks,

Gernot

[PATRICK MOORE]

If I can find the link, I'll post the stats I found claiming that, per hour, cycling is as dangerous for serious injury and death as driving and half as dangerous as walking.

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Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
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[Rob]

Here's some good info on the subject from my friends down the hall at Sightline: http://daily.sightline.org/daily_score/archive/2007/10/08/safe-streets-bicycle-neglect-7

Rob in Seattle

[Mike]

What I enjoyed about the clip was the lucid critique of the culture of
fear.

I also sent Grant a link to the Thudguard page and suggested Rivendell
make a tweed lugged model.

--mike

[Ray Shine]

I think the guy in the video is full of himself, if not also bull pukkie.  I have two bicycle helmets and one motorcycle helmet that can attest to the saving grace of helmets in collisions. 

---

From: Mike <mjaw...@gmail.com>
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 12:13 PM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Helmet use and how dangerous are bikes versus cars

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[Ray Shine]

The climate of fear is not necessarily attributable to marketing gurus, either. Try too many tort and trial attorneys.

[Kelly Sleeper]

Not an attack, but if I crashed two wheels that often I'd not be
riding them. Not to mention that just because you crack a helmet
doesn't mean it really saved you from anything.

I'm not anti helmet, and wear mine when I'm riding in groups and such
or even if they just aren't comfortable around me without a helmet.
However..

Riding alonge with no clips at a comfortable pace and being a skilled
bike handler, I would be better off using the helmet in the car,
walking in the snow, shower, or the golf course.

Of course if I'm falling on my head a helmet is a good thing.. but how
much better who knows. The risk of head injury on the bike is pretty
low to begin with, then the percentage of those who hit hard enough to
have any injury where the helmet actually helps is even smaller. For
me in most cases it's a small enough risk I don't worry about it.

Now for those yelling how many crashes they have had and how wonderful
the helmet is.. great sounds like you need it... doesn't mean everyone
else does.

If you feel better with a helmet on please wear it and don't allow
yourself to be talked out of it. At the same time.. it's your
business so stay out of mine.

The fear mongering is coming from other cyclist, it's coming from
lawyers, it's coming from all around for whatever reason. It's not
backed by the numbers however and yet it is.. if I win the lottery and
then hit the lottery again and hit hard enough but not to hard then I
guess the helmet is a savior.

So if your a racer, racer wannabe, group pace line rider, fall off a
lot, or dont' feel skilled on the bike I suggest a helmet.

have a great day

Kelly

Ray Shine wrote:
> I think the guy in the video is full of himself, if not also bull pukkie.  I have two bicycle helmets and one motorcycle helmet that can attest to the saving grace of helmets in collisions. 
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mike <mjaw...@gmail.com>
> To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 12:13 PM
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Helmet use and how dangerous are bikes versus cars
>
> What I enjoyed about the clip was the lucid critique of the culture of
> fear.
>
> I also sent Grant a link to the Thudguard page and suggested Rivendell
> make a tweed lugged model.
>
> --mike
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

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[Ray Shine]

My apologies. I didn't realize that I was in your business.

---

From: Kelly Sleeper <tksl...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you feel better with a helmet on please wear it and don't allow
yourself to be talked out of it.  At the same time.. it's your
business so stay out of mine.

Ray Shine wrote:
> I think the guy in the video is full of himself, if not also bull pukkie.  I have two bicycle helmets and one motorcycle helmet that can attest to the saving grace of helmets in collisions. 
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mike <mjaw...@gmail.com>
> To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 12:13 PM
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Helmet use and how dangerous are bikes versus cars
>
> What I enjoyed about the clip was the lucid critique of the culture of
> fear.
>
> I also sent Grant a link to the Thudguard page and suggested Rivendell
> make a tweed lugged model.
>
> --mike
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

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[PATRICK MOORE]

Well put, Kelly. I am open on the question -- gave up wearing one about five years ago after 20 years of wearing them after I did some secondary source research, but AFAICT well done compilations and finding that no one provides statistics proving helmet usefulness -- this as opposed of course to anecdotal evidence which both sides possess. I am still waiting for good statistical evidence that I should wear them. One of the better known studies out there puts the danger (from serious accident) on a bicycle at about even with riding in a car, measuring per unit time of use as opposed to distance covered, the latter putting cycling injury, IIRC, at twice as likely as in a car. Still safer than walking, though, from this same source which I have somewhere.

[Richard Merkin]

I usually don't interject but having worked in neurosurgery for the
last 12 years I would say wear a helmet. If you have never seen
somebody fracture their skull then you are missing out....it only
takes one fall.

> > > From: Mike <mjawn...@gmail.com>

> Patrick Moore, ACRW at patrickmo...@resumespecialties.com

[William]

You could have won the cork-product-suggestion contest with a cork-
lined, tweed covered thudgard.

Brilliant!

[Mike]

On Mar 15, 5:46 pm, Ray Shine <r.sh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> The climate of fear is not necessarily attributable to marketing gurus, either. Try too many tort and trial attorneys.

Oh, I agree the culture of litigation doesn't help.

I've been working in ERs for a while now and have seen tons of head
injuries from all kinds of causes. I'll certainly keep wearing my
helmet and recommending helmets but I still think he makes good points
and I really enjoyed his talk.

Still, I think a tweed lugged steel Thudguard with some splats and a
Wooly Warm sweater would be a nice look for pedaling around on a
Rivendell.

--mike

[Mike]

On Mar 15, 5:46 pm, Ray Shine <r.sh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> The climate of fear is not necessarily attributable to marketing gurus, either. Try too many tort and trial attorneys.
>

Yeah, the culture of litigation doesn't help.

Like I said, I enjoyed his talk and thought he made some valid points.
It may not resonate with everyone the same way.

I think a tweed lugged steel Thudguard with some spalts and Wooly Warm
sweater would look great while pedaling a Rivendell.

--mike