Berthoud saddle twising on seat post... what is going on?

[Rene Sterental]

Hi all,

To my utmost dismay, today I realized that my 3 month old Berthoud Touring saddle is all twisted on the seat post on my Atlantis. Please check how it looked in January when I installed it: http://tinyurl.com/4mw79ms and how it looked yesterday: http://tinyurl.com/4ea9qfe.

I have posted some additional photos as well where you can check it from behind referencing the handlebar: http://tinyurl.com/4vbsdmf.

It all happened because I got a second Berthoud saddle for my Homer and installed it yesterday. As I was checking to make sure that saddle position and height on the Homer was identical to the Atlantis, I noticed that the screwed rivet on the nose seemed to be pointing towards one side instead of pointing upwards. Further inspection from behind showed the left side significantly lower than the right side, and what appeared to be a twisted frame. When installing the Berthoud on the Homer, the distance between the rails is quite shorter than than the width of the rail "tracks" on the head of the Nitto S-83 seat post. The same was true on the Atlantis, but it wasn't quite so significant and this time I had to spend a significant amount of time slowly tightening the screws on the Nitto's head so the saddle rails would slide and get expanded to fit properly. The saddle on the Homer is very straight, just like the saddle on the Atlantis was at first.

I don't know if my hips are twisted and/or one of my legs is shorter than the other one; I'm having problems on my right hip that coincidentally or not, started when I started riding the Brooks saddles on my Riv bikes. As I removed the Brooks saddle from the Atlantis to replace it with the Berthoud - the Atlantis is the bike I ride the most - I did notice that it seemed as if that saddle was starting to break in and the left side had a larger indentation making it a bit lower than the right side. At the time I dismissed it having read that it appeared that the newer Brooks saddles were not holding their shape very well and since I was swapping it for the Berthoud didn't pay any further attention to it.

I then proceeded to remove the saddle from the seat post on the Atlantis to examine it (after taking the photos) and found the following:

- The saddle seemed to straighten itself but I could twist it by hand quite easily and replicate the twist it had when mounted.

- The screws on the rivets were a bit loose and I tightened them all - the saddle seemed to get a bit firmer and less twist prone but I could still twist it by hand.

I then mounted the saddle on a Thomson Elite seat post and carefully adjusted its position and tightened slowly ensuring it was straight. After being tightened on the Thomson, I could no longer twist it by hand.

I'm quite puzzled by all of this but am wondering if any of the following may be true:

- My body is slowly twisting the saddle as I ride and my left seat bone is actually lower than the right one. On the Brooks saddle it seemed to start causing the leather to adapt to my derriere but on the Berthoud, the metal rails can twist on their plastic ends and therefore rather than the thicker leather adapting to my seat bones, the whole saddle has slowly twisted as the rails have slid even though the saddle was quite tight.

- My right hip problem are the result of this twist that is probably in my body. I never had this problem when riding regular modern saddles, but for the past year+ all my rides were on leather saddles. I've gone back to riding clipped in instead of flats as that was another variable that changed at the same time. My right hip problem has been getting worse slowly over the past year, and nothing I've been able to do so far has really worked.

I apologize for the very lengthy description, but I'm wondering if the saddle is just reflecting something that is wrong with my body while it should be staying straight to help it. When I rode my Atlantis, didn't feel at all that the left side was lower than the right side.

Thinking back, about a month ago I moved the saddle further forward. To try to maintain its tilt I didn't loosen it too much, just enough to be able to push it forward by shoving it from behind. I wonder if it wasn't loose enough that my shoving caused the twist by pushing one rail further than the other one and then tightening it.

Any feedback is much appreciated; I'll keep riding it and monitoring it to see if the twist returns or if it now preserves its correct shape.

Thank you all!

René

[Bill Gibson (III)]

Confounded variables. Too many. But, you are on the right track. Isolate them. Control them. There are professionals who can measure your leg lengths and find a difference, but something is up. Is it the saddle? Loose bolts? Pedaling? The skeleton? Muscle strength? Pain is your guide, unfortunately. The pedal connection issue is another factor, for hips as well as knees as well as...it's a system. Seek balance. Check your mileage changes, effort changes , general health (age?), too. Molestem senectutem. Unless it's painful because of the saddle, it could easily be from another cause; changes in shape are "breaking in", are the virtue of leather. No one is symmetrical, but overuse is a cause of pain, and position can trigger overuse, as can being restricted in movement. Wiggle and stand lots.

Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA

[newenglandbike]

I'm not sure if it is the same thing you're experiencing, but my
leather saddles always break-in a little bit lop-sided to the left.
The frames stay straight though; just the leather gets a bit
asymmetrical.

[Kelly Sleeper]

René

 

I would blame the saddle.  I would also write it off as a problem with a single saddle at this point not the Berthoud Touring Saddle as a brand defect.  (unless it happens again of course)

Send the pictures to the manufacture and I would bet they replace it for you.

 

It’s to early to blame your riding style or to start paying for professional fits etc.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Kelly

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Khalid Mateen]

Rene, it seems that the rails have twisted.  At least that is the only thing in my mind that makes sense.  I am not a saddle designer but there may be something about your riding position on the saddle that causes it to twist like that that.  The rails that stretch and support your bottom from underneath, do not have much strength to resist twisting in that direction.  In fact, to resisting twisting as it shown in the picture, you have to make a box shapes change in the support of the seat so that seat does not twist (structural engineer).  I think it has something about how you as a rider you sitting on the saddle.  You may be leaning on the edge of the saddle and causing that twist to happen.

 

K.

[Tim McNamara]

Iif you look at the photos from behind the rear cantle plate is lopsided. It certainly looks like a saddle failure. It almost looks like the left side saddle rail has been forced out of its pocket in the cantle plate and that this is what's twisting the nose. I'd inspect the the cantle plate for a crack above the saddle rail on the left side.

I had a Brook Pro (still have it) which used to have a twisted nose like this. Turned out that the nosepiece was improperly formed; it was too wide and would slip over the support stop on one side. A minute with the bench vise fixed that and it's been fine for about 10 years now. My Lepper Voyageurs tend to have a slight twist to the nose, too, but it is minor and un-bothersome-y.

[Montclair BobbyB]

Rene:

I experienced something similar once with a Brooks B17... After only a
short period (maybe 2-3 months of mild break in), a friend noticed my
saddle sat rather askew, and I then realized it definitely was
lopsided... I sent photos to the retailer, who warranted it as
defective, but stil made a point of telling me "go easy with the
Proofide"... I gave it 2 generous treatments, but didn't think I
overdid it. The replacement is doing just fine, BTW....no problems.

I wouldn't be shy about sending photos to Berthoud... You've had
enough experience riding other leather saddles where this hasn't
occurred before, correct?

Good luck,
BB

On Mar 28, 10:06 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> Iif you look at the photos from behind the rear cantle plate is lopsided.  It certainly looks like a saddle failure.  It almost looks like the left side saddle rail has been forced out of its pocket in the cantle plate and that this is what's twisting the nose.  I'd inspect the the cantle plate for a crack above the saddle rail on the left side.
>
> I had a Brook Pro (still have it) which used to have a twisted nose like this. Turned out that the nosepiece was improperly formed; it was too wide and would slip over the support stop on one side.  A minute with the bench vise fixed that and it's been fine for about 10 years now.  My Lepper Voyageurs tend to have a slight twist to the nose, too, but it is minor and un-bothersome-y.
>
> On Mar 28, 2011, at 7:53 AM, Kelly Sleeper wrote:
>
>
>
> > René
>
> > I would blame the saddle.  I would also write it off as a problem with a single saddle at this point not the Berthoud Touring Saddle as a brand defect.  (unless it happens again of course)
> > Send the pictures to the manufacture and I would bet they replace it for you.
>
> > It’s to early to blame your riding style or to start paying for professional fits etc.
>
> > Just my opinion.
>
> > Kelly
>
> > From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rene Sterental
> > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 9:39 PM
> > To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: [RBW] Berthoud saddle twising on seat post... what is going on?
>
> > Hi all,
>

> > To my utmost dismay, today I realized that my 3 month old Berthoud Touring saddle is all twisted on the seat post on my Atlantis. Please check how it looked in January when I installed it:http://tinyurl.com/4mw79msand how it looked yesterday:http://tinyurl.com/4ea9qfe.

>
> > I have posted some additional photos as well where you can check it from behind referencing the handlebar:http://tinyurl.com/4vbsdmf.
>
> > It all happened because I got a second Berthoud saddle for my Homer and installed it yesterday. As I was checking to make sure that saddle position and height on the Homer was identical to the Atlantis, I noticed that the screwed rivet on the nose seemed to be pointing towards one side instead of pointing upwards. Further inspection from behind showed the left side significantly lower than the right side, and what appeared to be a twisted frame. When installing the Berthoud on the Homer, the distance between the rails is quite shorter than than the width of the rail "tracks" on the head of the Nitto S-83 seat post. The same was true on the Atlantis, but it wasn't quite so significant and this time I had to spend a significant amount of time slowly tightening the screws on the Nitto's head so the saddle rails would slide and get expanded to fit properly. The saddle on the Homer is very straight, just like the saddle on the Atlantis was at first.
>
> > I don't know if my hips are twisted and/or one of my legs is shorter than the other one; I'm having problems on my right hip that coincidentally or not, started when I started riding the Brooks saddles on my Riv bikes. As I removed the Brooks saddle from the Atlantis to replace it with the Berthoud - the Atlantis is the bike I ride the most - I did notice that it seemed as if that saddle was starting to break in and the left side had a larger indentation making it a bit lower than the right side. At the time I dismissed it having read that it appeared that the newer Brooks saddles were not holding their shape very well and since I was swapping it for the Berthoud didn't pay any further attention to it.
>
> > I then proceeded to remove the saddle from the seat post on the Atlantis to examine it (after taking the photos) and found the following:
> > - The saddle seemed to straighten itself but I could twist it by hand quite easily and replicate the twist it had when mounted.
> > - The screws on the rivets were a bit loose and I tightened them all - the saddle seemed to get a bit firmer and less twist prone but I could still twist it by hand.
>
> > I then mounted the saddle on a Thomson Elite seat post and carefully adjusted its position and tightened slowly ensuring it was straight. After being tightened on the Thomson, I could no longer twist it by hand.
>
> > I'm quite puzzled by all of this but am wondering if any of the following may be true:
> > - My body is slowly twisting the saddle as I ride and my left seat bone is actually lower than the right one. On the Brooks saddle it seemed to start causing the leather to adapt to my derriere but on the Berthoud, the metal rails can twist on their plastic ends and therefore rather than the thicker leather adapting to my seat bones, the whole saddle has slowly twisted as the rails have slid even though the saddle was quite tight.
> > - My right hip problem are the result of this twist that is probably in my body. I never had this problem when riding regular modern saddles, but for the past year+ all my rides were on leather saddles. I've gone back to riding clipped in instead of flats as that was another variable that changed at the same time. My right hip problem has been getting worse slowly over the past year, and nothing I've been able to do so far has really worked.
>
> > I apologize for the very lengthy description, but I'm wondering if the saddle is just reflecting something that is wrong with my body while it should be staying straight to help it. When I rode my Atlantis, didn't feel at all that the left side was lower than the right side.
>
> > Thinking back, about a month ago I moved the saddle further forward. To try to maintain its tilt I didn't loosen it too much, just enough to be able to push it forward by shoving it from behind. I wonder if it wasn't loose enough that my shoving caused the twist by pushing one rail further than the other one and then tightening it.
>
> > Any feedback is much appreciated; I'll keep riding it and monitoring it to see if the twist returns or if it now preserves its correct shape.
>
> > Thank you all!
>
> > René
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Bill M.]

Rene,

It may or may not be relevant to the twist in your Berthoud saddle,
but I also found that my old B17 had broken in asymmetrically, and I
tended to have much more pressure and discomfort on one side. Part of
that may come from my having broken my right ischial tuberosity (sit
bone) back in 1992. The solution came from the setup instructions for
the Selle An-Atomica saddle - for those of us with slightly
asymmetrical hips, the nose of the saddle may have to be pointed a bit
to one side instead of straight ahead. You need to rotate the nose of
the saddle towards whichever cheek is under too much pressure. The
magic point is when each sit bone bears equally against the saddle.
Too much rotation may cause your leg to rub against the nose, so
there's a limit to how far you can go. It doesn't take much to make a
noticeable difference. I now find that rotation is a basic part of
saddle fitting for all of my saddles. Just lining it up by eye
doesn't get it into the right position.

It's disturbing that you actually seem able to twist the frame of that
saddle. I would consider that a defect, at least worthy of a call to
the retailer to see if there is a known issue or a possible fix (or a
warranty replacement).

Bill Mennuti

On Mar 27, 7:39 pm, Rene Sterental <orthie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> To my utmost dismay, today I realized that my 3 month old Berthoud Touring
> saddle is all twisted on the seat post on my Atlantis. Please check how it

> looked in January when I installed it: *http://tinyurl.com/4mw79ms*and how
> it looked yesterday: *http://tinyurl.com/4ea9qfe*.

>
> I have posted some additional photos as well where you can check it from

> behind referencing the handlebar: *http://tinyurl.com/4vbsdmf*.

[cyclofiend]

Rene -

That doesn't look right at all. Reminds me of the way my Avocets
would fail back in mtb days, when I had to push the saddle all the way
back. It usually took a good crash or three to bend 'em like that,
but something isn't holding together properly.

That being said, every saddle I ride has a _slight_ bit of skew to it,
but it's a minor nudge in the nose or slight difference in the
dimples. They don't look like yours. At a glance, yours looks like a
bent or broken rail (or equivalent, as Tim M. concisely pointed out).

The one thing I notice is that the B-17 is just a hair too wide for
longer rides for me. The place I notice is in the hip, and the mental
image I have is that I've changed the angle from hip to femur. May
also be that I roll my hips slightly differently on that saddle.

But, I would get it off the bike. It's probably worth checking your
leg length. It may also be that it failed slowly, and you've kind of
adapted to it.

hope that helps a bit,

- Jim

[Rene Sterental]

Hi all,

 

Thank you very much for all the responses and suggestions. I'm quite eager to try the one about turning the saddle nose slightly in the direction of the seat bone that bears more weight, which if I understood correctly would be towards the left as that seems to be where the more pronounced indentation as the saddle breakes in is noticeable.

 

Now, regarding the Berthoud saddles, I sent an e-mail to Bill Laine at Wallingford Bicycle Parts who explained they are aware of the issue and that Mr. Berthoud is working or has a solution for it. The thing is that the rails are just inserted into the plastic nose tip and rear section but there isn't anything physically holidng it there other than the leather cover. So, expanding the rails to seat them properly on a seat post is a non-issue, but sometimes the saddles twist. He suggested I contact directly Mr. Berthoud to see how he was going to address this issue and Mr. Berthoud responded stating that he was indeed aware of the issue and was going to send me a fix. A few hours later Bill e-mailed me stating that the Berthoud dealer in California had the parts needed and he was going to ship them to me. The solution is a brace that clamps to the rails to prevent the twisting. I requested two so I can prevent this from happening on the second saddle I just installed on the Homer. As soon as I get them, probably in 1-2 weeks I'll post photos.

 

Thanks again for all your feedback!

 

René

[Steve Palincsar]

So, what about the rest of us? Any discussion about retrofits for the
installed base? I have a new one in the box...

[Bill Gibson (III)]

I'm glad M. Berthoud is willing to support his customers, and is continuing to develop the saddle. It does look like the first leather saddle that could really replace the Brooks line. It's much easier and cheaper to fix a saddle than your anatomy!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

--

[Rene Sterental]

I don't think this is necessarily happening to all the Berthoud saddles but to a few of them. Otherwise we would have all heard of it by now. However,it has happened to enough saddles for Mr. Berthoud to work out a fix and I'm pretty sure, start working on an improved design for the frame or just include the clamp on every saddle sold in the future. You can watch to see if it happens to you and if it does contact whoever you bought it from and request the clamp. You can also try requesting it before it happens for your peace of mind. If it turns out that it's happening to everybody sooner or later, then I'm sure they'll make and send clamps to everyone who bought a saddle as a retrofit.

 

I'll keep you all posted.

 

René

[Kelly Sleeper]

Either way.. if it's not all but many, and needs to be fixed.. it's still defective.  It's not your riding style or any riders technique at fault.  So they need to fix all saddles or better yet recall them.

 

Kelly

[Rene Sterental]

Update on Berthoud Saddle twisting problem...

 

The "solution" piece was mailed to me by Bill from Wallingford Bikes (one for each of my saddles) and I proceeded to install it as instructed. It's actually a very simple solution, very light as it's made of aluminum and it instantly stiffened the saddle to make it extremely rigid.

 

As Bill explained it, the rails are held by the pressure of the leather and that is what makes the saddles prone to the twisting. With this stiffener the problem is completely solved. He said these pieces were going to be included with all new saddles, but I'm not sure if they already are.

 

Photos are posted: http://tinyurl.com/3edmlo9

The link should take you to the first one where you see both halves of the stiffener, click next to see the upper half in place and then next again to see the full assembly.

 

I'm completely satisfied with this solution and keep on loving these saddles.

 

René

[Mojo]

Well, that's an elegant solution. Congratulations.
My Bertoud touring is straight and true after ~600 miles.
I think it is overtaking the B17 as my favorite saddle.

On Apr 27, 11:20 pm, Rene Sterental <orthie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Update on Berthoud Saddle twisting problem...
>
> The "solution" piece was mailed to me by Bill from Wallingford Bikes (one
> for each of my saddles) and I proceeded to install it as instructed. It's
> actually a very simple solution, very light as it's made of aluminum and it
> instantly stiffened the saddle to make it extremely rigid.
>
> As Bill explained it, the rails are held by the pressure of the leather and
> that is what makes the saddles prone to the twisting. With this stiffener
> the problem is completely solved. He said these pieces were going to be
> included with all new saddles, but I'm not sure if they already are.
>

> Photos are posted: *http://tinyurl.com/3edmlo9*

[omnigrid]

I have a new Berthoud Aspin where the rails were too close together and I had to stretch them to fit into the seatpost clamp. Would you guys say I'm susceptible to this twisting problem and should track down one these these aluminum rail clamps?

I'll also echo my love for this saddle. I used to love Brooks, but the Berthoud is hands-down a better saddle for me.

[Rene Sterental]

I had to do the same on both my saddles and both Bill and Mr. Berthoud said it is normal and inconsequential since the rails are just held into the plastic ends by the leather top so there is transversal flexibility. 

Obviously, the stiffener will spread the rails to the correct width but the main benefit and purpose is preventing antero-posterior torsion. I'm 252 so I may be putting a lot more torsional torque on the saddle vs. a lighter rider. If your saddle hasn't twisted I'd say you're fine. If you're worried, contact who you bought it from or Mr. Berthoud directly.

Rene

Sent from my iPhone 4