LED light recommendations
erp4599
600K plans on riding straight through.
Since I have a SON setup and he is not interested in going that route,
what lights do non-SON users recommend for a primary light adequate
for the Wisconsin countryside?
Eric Peterson
David Cambon
ultradave
I commute year round in the dark, in a rural area of Northern
California, so lots of hills, animals, rocks, etc. I have used Light
and Motion HID, and Lupine HID and LED lights for years. I am now
using the Lupine Betty 12, which has 1400 lumen output, 6 hour burn
time for the high setting and 13 hour burn time for the Medium setting
(the medium setting puts out about 700 lumen). By comparison, the
Dinotte mentioned above puts out maximum of 200 lumen. I think
lighting is like buying insurance, and on countless brevets and
randonnees I have seen cyclists taking big risks with poor lighting.
Of the high end lights, I think the new Lupine Betty sets the mark, it
is most useful on fast descents, technical descents, and fast night
rides, and of course all off road night riding. The product is bomb
proof. I have used the Dinotte rear LEDs, and have to say, I have
already had failures with the product (switch broke), nice design,
poor quality control.
best,
david
Stephane Beaudry
I invested last year in a Niterider Moab (which I still thought was a lot of money at the time, retails around 500$, got it off of ebay for less, saw one at a swap meet for 250$, I wish I had gotten it just for the spare battery and lamp), I personally haven't gone long enough yet at night to have it go out on me, hopefully I will be testing it over a full night during the 600K. One thing that bugs me about it, is there is a noticeable flicker at the lowest intensity and last year, I had it mounted on my bike and when I would hit a good bump it would shut off. This year, I am using it on my helmet (I haven't gone several hours yet in that configuration so not sure if my neck will be happy), it never shuts off and I have control over where it is shinning, all I can say is I have full confidence going full speed down the darkest routes.
Beezodog
the cable connections were temporarily disrupted. On that particular
unit the other issue was that the RAM memory in the control panel got
erased so it immediately moved to a failsafe mode because it thought
the battery charge level was now quite low.
On Jan 11, 10:14 am, Stephane Beaudry <sbeaudr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One thing that bugs me about it, is there
> is a noticeable flicker at the lowest intensity and last year, I had it
> mounted on my bike and when I would hit a good bump it would shut off.
Robert Magyar
that way you can feed it rechargeables, lithium's, or what ever happens to be at the minimart.
Lamps with proprietary battery packs are a problem, if for unknown reasons the unit didn't recharge correctly, you can end up hauling around a several hundred dollar accessory that is keeping you in the dark.
Bob
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:22:15 -0800
> Subject: [Randon] LED light recommendations
> From: erp...@sbcglobal.net
> To: ran...@googlegroups.com
Tim McNamara
> I commute year round in the dark, in a rural area of Northern
> California, so lots of hills, animals, rocks, etc. I have used Light
> and Motion HID, and Lupine HID and LED lights for years. I am now
> using the Lupine Betty 12, which has 1400 lumen output, 6 hour burn
> time for the high setting and 13 hour burn time for the Medium setting
> (the medium setting puts out about 700 lumen). By comparison, the
> Dinotte mentioned above puts out maximum of 200 lumen. I think
> lighting is like buying insurance, and on countless brevets and
> randonnees I have seen cyclists taking big risks with poor lighting.
At the risk of topic drift, I think that it's very possible to have
too much light from a bicycle headlight. Every high output bike
light I have seen has inferior optics, basically overcoming that with
a huge blast of light. Close object are lit so brightly that night
vision is compromised. Blinding car drivers and other cyclists is
also a bad plan. I find my 3W halogen system to be excellent
lighting. If I had poor night vision, I might want more light. Some
people seem to think they need a klieg light on their bike to be able
to ride at night.
That being said, battery powered lights have improved dramatically in
terms of run time. Most will still require a spare battery or set of
batteries to get through a dusk-til-dawn leg of a brevet. LED
headlamps still tend to have less than great optics for focusing the
beam but that will improve in time. This is pretty clearly the
technology of the future for bike lights.
Vik
If one doesn't run a generator, then the one key factor should be that the lamp uses AA batteries,
that way you can feed it rechargeables, lithium's, or what ever happens to be at the minimart.
Lamps with proprietary battery packs are a problem, if for unknown reasons the unit didn't recharge correctly, you can end up hauling around a several hundred dollar accessory that is keeping you in the dark.
Bob
Eric Peterson
.
David Cambon
With the Dinotte AA light I run it on the rechargables and then lithium
disposables if the rechargables run out. I carry a package of spare
lithiums with me all the time. I get 4-5 hours on the rechargables and 6 -
10 hours on the lithiums. I only use the light on the low power setting
which triples battery run time. I have the new version of the Dinotte AA
which is significantly brighter than the older version so it is not
necessery to use the high setting at all.
I know the (disposable) lithium batteries are bad for the planet but they
are very light and if you become manic-depressive on a brevet you can eat
them.
I use the Dinotte lights quite a bit and I have not had one break down. If
one is worried then you could use the Dinotte as a backup to a generator hub
or you could simply use two Dinottes. Having the two Dinotte lights hooked
up to their own battery packs would be really convenient because you could
switch lights with the press of a button instead of changing battery packs
if one set of batteries runs out.
Dinotte also makes the best rear light there is and it is perfect for
randonneurs because it is bright and it does not have to blink to be seen
(thereby not causing drafting randonnuers to have eplileptic
rando-convulsions).
Mike Sturgill
I just received a link to an LED lights shootout on mtbr.com. Here is the
link.
http://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/category/lights-shootout/
WillemJ
solution. For someone who does not want that, many of the same design
principles remain, however. Good optics are of paramount importance to
direct the light where it is needed, to avoid blinding other traffic,
and indeed to retain some night vision. As a result one does not waste
power, and can indeed make do with simple AA batteries. As a light
source, leds now clearly have the edge. Until recently, the problem
was that they were a pretty large light source and as a result the
light could not easily be focussed (with wastful rotation symmetric
lights as a result). The Inoled and now also B&M IQ series trick of
using an optical mirror rather than a lens has now solved this.
So what do I recommend now? The B&M IXON IQ. Like the new B&M IQ Fly
for generators, it gives a nicely focussed wide and bright beam of
some 40 lux at 10 m. At full blast it lasts some 5 hours, and at the
low setting (usable in a pinch because comparable to the venerable
Cateye 500 II), it will last for 20 hours. It uses four AA
rechargeables or alkalines, so if your friend brings along a second
set of rechargeables, he will have some 10 hours of bright light.
If he then decides that well designed lights really deserve a
generator, he can keep the IXON IQ as a backup light (rechargeable
from the SON with the special B&M gadget), and maybe he will be swayed
by the new and superbright (80 lux at 30 km) LED headlight from
Schmidt themselves that is supposed to come onto the market this
April.
Willem
Stephane Beaudry
Peter Noris
Dinotte also makes the best rear light there is and it is perfect for
randonneurs because it is bright and it does not have to blink to be seen
(thereby not causing drafting randonnuers to have eplileptic
rando-convulsions).
Although I have no experience with Dinotte headlights, I do with their taillights. They are dangerously, obnoxiously bright. If we are riding with some one who uses these, we make them ride in the back. (N.B. - this may be a strategy for not pulling).
MAYBE if you are commuting in a very lit area with no other cyclists they make sense. Otherwise, do your fellow randonneurs a favor and use them in a disco instead of glow sticks.
Sorry, David - I generally agree with what you have to say.
--
Peter
TEAM RANS - RAAM 2008
"Seeing the U.S.A. one brevet at a time"
13 regions and Canada - more to come!
321-794-0500 cell - 352-275-5888 home - Skype me at Peter.F.Noris
Joe Gross
self-discharge. You can buy low-discharge NiMh that cost a little more
and have less capacity but effectively don't discharge at all.
I've got a small collection of Maha Imedion low-discharge NiMh batteries
that I use mostly for camera flashes that work really well and even
produce higher instantaneous current than Lithium AA batteries.
They're only 2100 mAh vs 2900 mAh for normal NiMh so if you're
planning on using the batteries within a few weeks of charging you're
better off with vanilla NiMh batteries.
I got 'em from http://thomasdistributing.com/
Joe
David Cambon
>taillights. They are dangerously, obnoxiously bright. If we are riding
>with some one who uses these, we make them ride in the back. (N.B. - this
>may be a strategy for not pulling).
Yes, that is true, the Dinotte taillight is obnoxiously bright. I should
have mentioned that. However, it is an excellent strategy for not pulling!
I put my rear lights underneath my seatbag so they are not in the direct
line of sight of drafting cyclists.
Andrew D. Mead
Mounting flexibility is great; they'll fit just about anywhere on a bike.
I agree with the earlier poster's comments about too much light; I prefer the medium setting. Low is nice when riding with a group and easy enough to switch while riding. DiNotte was nice enough to provide several battery holders, packs and straps when I told them I didn't need any more batteries or chargers.
I have a HID light that I use during winter morning training rides, especially if the roads are wet. Sometimes there's just no substitute for raw power.
ADM
--
Andrew Mead
adm...@gmail.com
---- __O
---_ \<._
- (_)/@(_)
**********************************
Have you logged your miles today?
http://www.bikejournal.com
Ride. Log. Repeat.
Vik
It's hard for me to believe that NiMH AAs have that much more capacity as you state below. I
Eric
albert meerscheidt
Thanks,
Albert
albert.me...@gmail.com
cbcr...@cascade.org
webm...@seattlerando.org
Peter Noris
For my commute, with all the city lights to compete with; I'm a bad man.I run both front and back DiNottes in blink mode. Cars don't follow closely at all, I think the light hurts the eyes - I know the reflection off the inside of the car ahead of me hurts my eyes.Last night, I'm sitting in traffic at a light and I noticed that the person in the car ahead of me and the person in the car behind me had their hands up, blocking their eyes from the blink. The sight warmed my heart, I'm a bad man. Those little lights are bright enough that I stopped carrying the helicopter landing strobes - as I said I'm a year round commuter, and a bad man.I cover the headlight when there are oncomming riders, and don't use the lights on blink mode unless I'm riding by my self on brevets.AlbertNo randonneurs were injured in the making of this commute.Thanks,
On Jan 11, 2008 1:59 PM, Vik <thre...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Eric,The problem isn't with capacity of the alkaline batteries it must be related to the voltage drop of these cells as they discharge. I'm not a battery guru, but I suspect that the voltage of a normal alkaline cell drops faster than a NiMH AA or a Lithium AA so the Dinotte light voltage regulation circuitry sees it as dead when it still has a charge left albeit at a lower voltage.I just posted this info so that someone takes this into account when buying an AA LED light. Check and see if alkaline AAs will work. If not don't plan on resupplying yourself at 7-11. I have an unregulated Nite Hawk bike light/headlamp that can use alkaline AAs with no problems, but it isn't as bright as the Dinotte light.As David points out you may well not run your Dinottee 200L -AA at full power so you can expect longer run times.safe riding,Vik
On 11-Jan-08, at 1:38 PM, Eric Peterson wrote:It's hard for me to believe that NiMH AAs have that much more capacity as you state below. IEric
--
Albert
albert.me...@gmail.com
cbcr...@cascade.org
webm...@seattlerando.org
Jeff Oh
I agree concerning the AA batteries, but not if they only last 30 minutes. My original post concerned finding a battery-powered light suitable for riding through the night, say on a 600K. To ride through the night in June I figure you need 9-10 hours from your light.It's hard for me to believe that NiMH AAs have that much more capacity as you state below. I use NiMH batteries in my GPS and they never last as long as alkalines. Can the power requirements of a light be so different? My only experience using NiMH batteries in a light is with the IXON LED light, with which I am very happy concerning its performance as a supplement/backup to the E6s. At least until the bracket broke in two....
Vik
Greg
different circumstances. Like Stephane, I have a MOAB, which is an HID
light. I wouldn't use it for city riding or for group riding, because
it's so bright. But if you're riding the back roads of Wisconsin, and
you think you're going to be riding by yourself, then a MOAB is a good
way to go.
I usually ride brevets alone or with my riding partner, Dennis, and
find myself on empty roads at night, so my headlight doesn't really
negatively affect anyone. But the MOAB beam extends from one side of
the road to the other, and lights reflective street signs. It also
makes it easier to be seen from behind for the times that a car passes
me. I can see all kings of hazards up ahead of me.
My riding buddy has a MOAB, and he had some problems with it. Nite-
Rider gave great support in fixing a faulty connection between the
battery and the cable.
Greg
kkjel...@gmail.com
EL-530's. Long run time, EASY to use and install, and they run on
AA's. I must have good night vision because I don't need much light
on the road.
With that said, on the trail in 12/24 mountain bike races I use a
Light & Motion ARC Ultra which is like turning on the sun! I can
descend at full speed with this light, but I have never wanted to use
it on a road bike.
Joe Gross
>
> Nominally, Alkaline batteries have more power (i.e. AH or mAH), but differ
> from NiMH in two respects: they have higher voltage (1.5 volts vs. 1.2) and
> they are much worse at supplying high current drains than NiMH batteries.
> The increased capacity and higher voltage is probably why you get longer
> life in your GPS with alkalines: NiMH batteries are probably dipping under
> the minimum voltage required by your GPS sooner.
This can also be a problem with cheap devices that don't do any
regulation. For PBP last year I thought I'd be clever and use lithium
AA and AAA batteries for my rear lights.
Since my rear lights weren't regulated and the lithium batteries were
capable of producing much higher current due to lower internal
resistance, my lights were *really* bright, but lasted for less than
half the time that they would with alkaline batteries.
I learned two lessons:
1) In unregulated devices that rely on the internal resistance of the
batteries to 'regulate' current, don't switch to NiMH or Lithium
batteries and expect to get better runtime.
2) Don't try new batteries for the first time at PBP. Really.
Joe
Joe Gross
>
> Yes, that is true, the Dinotte taillight is obnoxiously bright. I should
> have mentioned that. However, it is an excellent strategy for not pulling!
>
> I put my rear lights underneath my seatbag so they are not in the direct
> line of sight of drafting cyclists.
Another option for awesome bright taillights are the Planet Bike
Superflash lights. They mount to the seat stays so you can mount them
nice and low. I use them on blink when I'm not riding in a brevet
since they last longer and are safer.
Just aim them directly behind you so you don't blind a rider right
on your tail.
http://ecom1.planetbike.com/3034.html
Joe
David Cambon
> Superflash lights.
Ya, I love the Superflashes. I've got about 20 of 'em on different bikes.
And speaking of relatively unregulated devices I use lithium batteries in
the Superflashes because they discharge faster (ie brighter blink than
alkaline batteries).
> Just aim them directly behind you so you don't blind a rider right
> on your tail.
Even better I put them underneath my seatbag so they are not visible to
someone drafting. On one of my recumbents I mount them on a plastic
lightbar underneath a racktop bag so they are not visible to normal
randonneurs riding normal bikes if they are drafting. There is a bit of a
draft behind this recumbent:
http://www.recumbentblog.com/images/cambon3.jpg
In the photo there is a Busch & Miller non-blinky and three Superflashes.
The Superflash on the disc brake mount is a spare (in case one of the others
drops dead or drowns in the incessant rain on the west coast). The red and
white tape on the bike is Scotchlite reflective tape and the flourescent
orange material is high-angle conspicuity tape (extremely reflective).
Re: Alkaline Batteries & Discharge Rate
Another thing to consider about alkalines is that high-frequency vibration
(eg chipseal) and temperature can affect their discharge rate. Some people
have been shocked to learn that their alkaline batteries lasted half as long
on a rougher road surface. It's not usually an issue in summer riding but
alkalines can virtually stop working at extremely low temperatures.
Robert Magyar
The unregulated devices actually have a resister in them (likely tuned to a value for alkaline batteries) to cut down the voltage so the the LED doesn't burn out.
Then there is simple current regulation, which feeds then LED a certain amount of current, but not necessarily the maximum the LED can handle, thus lower light output then one would want.
For fast riding, the current regulation should be tuned to drive the LED at it's maximum output, but if you can get buy with less light, then one would then want circuitry to cut the output.
(Note the early 1 watt LED lamps should have only run for 4 hours on a set of AA's, if there regulation had been set to at 95% of max current, and they would have been a lot brighter. Instead they were designed for 30 hours of run time, thus the dim outputs).
Another nice feature is a voltage pump, or power squeeze circuitry that steps up low voltage to keep the light running so it can drain all the energy out of your batteries. Of course this regulation circuit should also do battery chemistry detection, that way the lamp will not short out your rechargeable cells.
I know the Princeton Tec Apex has these types features, but it doesn't have ideal optics for putting light in front of ones bike.
And this type of design wouldn't be ideal for a generator, which has different needs.
Waiting for a new light designed around the 200 lumen Luxeon K2,
Bob
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:50:10 -0800
> From: jgr...@stimpy.net
DemostiX
rechargeables in previous generation 1 watt LED headlights , such as
the Cateye 5xx series?
David Cambon
>claims he didn't see you and the police send him directly to jail!!!
Interestingly I get better treatment from motorists at night than during the
day, because of the way motorists think. This is what is happening in the
brain of a typical motorist when approaching me:
Daytime:
"I can clearly see it's a cyclist so I can kill or maim them with impunity.
I think I'll skim them just for the hell of it".
Nightime:
"I'm not sure what that bright blinking thing is so I'll steer clear of it
because it could damage my car".
With the blinking lightbar it looks kind of like a police car when
approaching from behind. Some people will think: "I better not run over
that thing because it could be a cop or something". I have just as much
lighting and reflective material on the front of that bike and it seems to
prevent idiots in cars from cutting in front of me at night:
http://www.recumbentblog.com/2007/10/02/gallery-david-cambons-gold-rush-replica/
On an upright bike a reflective yellow jacket and safety vest that makes you
look like a cop will also prevent idiots in cars from running you over
(because you remind them of a cop, which they will have second thoughts
about killing, because you might be able to pull out your gun and fire off a
couple of rounds before you die from the collision). Don't dress up like a
traffic flagperson because motorists run over flagpeople all the time.
> Kidding aside, I don't think it's possible to be too visible, I see so
> many cyclist commuting around San Diego and I can barely see them, they
> have theses cheap rear lights that can only be seen from maybe a hundred
> feet if you are paying attention...
I have seen plenty of randonneurs cycling in stealth mode too. My favorite
stealth outfit is the black cycling jacket (!), black tights, black helmet
and one non-blinking taillight with no reflective vest and no reflective
material on the crankarms or frame. Even with bits of reflective material
on their black jacket this type of stealth randonneur is practically
impossible to distinguish as a cyclist at night, especially if there are any
ambient lights.
When riding in urban areas cyclists have to do something to distinguish
themselves from all the ambient lights in the motorists field of vision.
Cyclists must also be aware that not only do motorists not give a shit about
the lives of cyclists, motorists may be chatting on the phone, drunk, stoned
or watching movies while driving, so cyclists must do something to draw
attention to themselves.
Sometimes I wonder wether cyclists are even aware that newer cars can be
purchased with a movie screen and a beer cooler right on the dash and that
people actually do watch movies and drink beer while driving (sometimes
while talking on the phone or typing on their computer).
Michel Gagnon
>
> Ya, I love the Superflashes. ....
>
> http://www.recumbentblog.com/images/cambon3.jpg
>
> In the photo there is a Busch & Miller non-blinky and three Superflashes.
Lovely setup. Two things I wonder from the photos:
1. In terms of brightness (mostly on axis), how does the Busch & Miller
D Toplight XS Permanent compare to the Superflash? I know the B&M only
has a steady mode, but I wonder about its nighttime and foul-weather
time visibility compared to a Superflash or a TL-LD1000.
Incidentally, what is its size?
I also have looked at your front end here:
http://www.recumbentblog.com/2007/10/02/gallery-david-cambons-gold-rush-replica/
and I'm a bit puzzled.
Is your main headlight an E-3 or a battery headlight? And what about
this rear-facing "headlight"?
http://www.recumbentblog.com/images/cambon2.jpg
Regards,
--
Michel Gagnon
Montréal (Québec, Canada)
David Cambon
D Toplight XS Permanent compare to the Superflash? I know the B&M only
has a steady mode, but I wonder about its nighttime and foul-weather
time visibility compared to a Superflash or a TL-LD1000.
In non-blinky mode the Busch & Miller is as bright as the Superflash in
non-blinky mode. The blinking Superflash is more visible in foul-weather.
The Busch & Miller is specified to meet German traffic regulations, not for
maximum motorist repellant ability. I use the Busch & Miller lights because
they have substantail retroreflective parts and because they fit on the
(German) Tubus racks I use. All racks should use the same standard light
mounts that the European racks use. It makes it a lot easier to install
good rear lights (like the Busch & Miller with its integral reflectors
beside the light). There's nothing special about the LED part of the Busch
& Miller lights and (depending on where you get them) they are about the
same price as the Planet Bike lights (probably because they come from the
same Asian factories).
>Incidentally, what is its size?
I'm not sure if I know what you mean.
>Is your main headlight an E-3 or a battery headlight? And what about
this rear-facing "headlight"?
The main headlights are a Dinotte AA and a Light & Motion MR incandescent
with a few Planet Bike and VistaLite backups and white blinky's. I have a
bunch of other lights I use too (they aren't all on there). I like to see
where I am going and I have another recumbent that regularly hits 90 -100
km/hr (usually in a driving rainstorm in the middle of the night) so it is
nice to have good lights.
The rear-facing headlight on the handlebars is the new Planet Bike
helmet-mount light. It has two brackets, one for a handlebar and one that
attaches to your helmet so you can store the light on your handlebar during
the daytime and put it on your helmet at night. Keeping the light off one's
helmet for part of the day might prevent Shermer Neck on a normal (upright)
bike.
The only reason I got the helmet light (and the computer) is because it is
my ambition to complete a brevet without getting lost. In 22 years of
brevets I have never managed to complete one without being lost or terribly
lost or so lost it was funny. I had hoped to combine a route sheet with the
computer but so far it appears I am too stuipid to operate a bike computer
(although I have finally figured out how to read a route sheet). I can't
even figure out how to make the computer tell me what time it is, so it
looks like I will be doing some bonus miles this year.
albert meerscheidt
Hitting Pedestrians? Those pedestrians had better stay on the sidewalk where they belong and not wander in the middle of the road.
Other riders? Most are dressed / lighted like I am (many with HIDs), the others are ninja wanna-bees. If someone wants to play ninja; dress in all black, ride a black bike with the reflectors removed, and no helmet - they have a death wish - drivers may not see them, in fact I may not see them either.
I suppose I won't do my case any good by talking about my highly reflective construction worker vest (why not? Washington spent million$ telling drivers not to hit construction workers), the 2 yards of reflective tape on the bike, the 8" wide orange reflective patch on my messenger bag, or the 120 dB air horn either. The air horn does wonders to promote bike / motorist relations, but that's another set of stories.
Albert, a bad, baaaaad, 20 year, year-round commuter
Peter Noris
If I hadn't such a strong feeling about flame wars...but write me off list and I'll tell you how I really feel.
Peter Noris
See, no flame, no personal rants, just a simple question.
I understand Peter, my night vision has started down that long road and I ride some very dark and lonely roads.
Dark Horse
traffic does a pretty good job all by itself.
My commute is 25 miles from well-lit urban to unlit semi-rural. Peds,
pickups, potholes and urban wildlife are par for the course.
What do I gain from 650 lumens of properly aimed headlight?
lessee..
Drivers d*mn sure see me coming. I have very few driveway or left-
turn incidents.
I can see street and road signs from almost 100 yds away, and
read them from half that.
The advance warning is nice.
Animals on the shoulder are much more visible, especially their
eyes. They tend
not to jump in front of me.
Glass and other shinies, and potholes, are visible from much
farther away.
I get a better picture of the roadside than I get with a 40-60
lumen German .
commuting light.
Legal coverage against the "I didn't see him" defense.
I could keep going, but you get the idea. I regard lighting as one
of the Holy Trinity that you cannot have too much of. The other two
are brakes and traction. I am a longtime 4-season commuter and year-
round rider, and I'll take any reasonble advantage that I can get.
Eamon.
Joe Gross
"The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have
burned so very, very brightly, Roy."
Joe
WillemJ
Let me add my European perspective and experience. When I worked and
rode my bike on the US, I never liked riding at night. One part of the
problem was obviously the car drivers. US drivers, I found, are
generally pretty careful and well meaning, but not necessarily wel
trained or aware of what they do (and particulalry with regard to
cyclists). At intersections I always tried to look at drivers' faces
to see a sign of recognition. Often, they must clearly have "seen"
me, but without registering the fact. It just did not occur to them
that there might be something. Riding at night was even worse, because
of the higher lighting contrast compared to my night rides over here
in Holland. Car headlights in the US (esp older traditional style) are
often badly adjusted, and thus blind you. Overhead street lights
similarly are more blinding because the light source itself is not
sufficiently shielded from the viewer. A lot of recent research has
gone into the design of better street lights, and it is about time the
results of that are applied in the US as well. The end result of this
higher contrast environment is indeed that weak bike lights are
drowned. So one does indeed need very good lights, to see, but also
and perhaps particularly to be seen.
I am not convinced one needs a stun gun light as a headlight to be
seen. The headlight is the brightest of your lights, and an E6 or IQ
Fly coming towards you really is pretty bright and hard to miss.
Taillights are a different matter. At greater distances (100m+) and on
axis, my daily experience is that the big reflector built into most
euro taillights is more effective than the actual light, and the same
applies to pedal reflectors. As for the actual taillight, generator
powered led lights clearly are brighter *in practice* than the "same"
lights but battery powered. Finally, though blinkies draw your
attention as a car driver, I think there are good scientific reasons
why they are banned in most European countries. Research has shown
that they draw attention, but do not inform the driver where the bike
actually is. Guessing distance and speed is far more difficult with
them. I almost daily drive my car with sometimes dozens of bikes
within simultaneous striking distance. Some of these bikes have
illegal blinkies, and they make it much harder for me the driver to
work out where they all are. As for brighter taillights, I think there
is another possibility that I have not yet investigated. B&M also
market a series of 12 volt products, including two taillights that
are more than twice as bright as their 6 volt siblings. With hub
generators, the convention has been to wire a 6 volt taillight in
parallel to the primary headlight with traditionally a 2.4 watt bulb,
and have a secondary with a 3 watt bulb wired in series. However, one
could, I think, also wire a 12 volt taillight in parallel to the
*combined* primary and secundary headlights that are after all
operating in joint 12 volt mode. With halogen bulbs that may not have
been such a good idea, as it sacrificed a bit of headlight
performance, and got you into trouble when one of your bulbs failed,
but with two IQ Fly's in series and both designed for 2.4 watts each,
there is no real sacrifice, and blown bulbs are no longer an issue
either.
Research has also shown that on axis visibility is not the most
important thing. Cyclists often get killed precisely because of
insufficient off axis or lateral visibility. Therefore, European
legislation forces taillight designers to sacrifice on-axis output in
favour of better off-axis performance (that is why many far eastern
and US lights are illegal here). The B&M 4D Toplight is a good example
of what can be achieved, with two of the four leds facing sideways
rather than backwards. Similarly, the now discontinued signal ring on
an E6 headlight made you much more visible from the side (or even
almost from behind). And here in Holland reflective sidewall tyres are
compulsory. As a driver I have seen the difference only too well:
never ride without them, if only because they identify you so clearly
as a cyclist.
Ride safely,
Willem
Robert Magyar
You mentioned pedal reflectors, but didn't mention ankle bands.
As a cyclist and and a driver in an area with lots of cycles on the roads, ankle bands do the most to help me identify that a bicycle is on the road in front of me. I have past countless riders with really bad blinky setups that I didn't see until I was next them, but if the rider has ankle bands I can usually spot them from at least a half mile away.
Bob
> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 02:16:01 -0800
> Subject: [Randon] Re: LED light recommendations
> From: willem....@gmail.com
> To: ran...@googlegroups.com
David Cambon
difference in ambient lighting between Europe and the United States. I
don't know if everyone from the United States who went to PBP noticed how
little light is wasted in Europe.
Having cycled in both Holland and the United States I would say there are
other subtle differences too. Here is a compare and contrast chart for LED
lighting:
Holland:
- Birds singing
- Sun shining
- Drivers are non-aggressive
- Pastry shops everywhere
- Superb bicycle lanes and bicycle roads
- Riding a bike in Holland is so great it will give you multiple orgasms
United States:
- Aggressive Sport Utility Vehicle culture
- Oil companies and car manufacturers basically run the place
- US motorists are ten times more likely to kill cyclists than Dutch
motorists
- Municipal, State and Federal tax revenue from US cyclists is used to pay
for transportation infrastructure for the exclusive pleasure of motorists
- The right of US SUV drivers to waste oil is supported by US foreign
policy, the likely result being all-out nuclear war with China over foreign
oil supplies
- US cyclists might as well do everything possible to protect themselves
during this brief period between the end of the oil age and the beginning of
nuclear annihilation.
Anyway, until Ralph Nader becomes President, US cyclists should probably go
on a massive unrestrained LED blinky-fest in the killer SUV rampage ambient
light storm preceding the flashing light of a thousand suns as nuclear
warheads fly both directions high over Holland and explode on cyclists in
the United States and China.
Michel Gagnon
> Let me add my European perspective and experience. ...
>
> I am not convinced one needs a stun gun light as a headlight to be
> seen. The headlight is the brightest of your lights, and an E6 or IQ
>
To complement what you have been writing, my background readings and
observations in ergonomics tell me that the size of a headlight (or
taillight) is an equally important perception factor. Most
battery-operated headlights are based on the MR-11 spot or on something
more or less that size. The E-6 has a much larger reflector and is
therefore quite easily seen precisely because of that. Of course, it
would help if we were having an even larger and even brighter E-6.
> Taillights are a different matter. ...
> B&M also market a series of 12 volt products,
> including two taillights that are more than twice as bright
> as their 6 volt siblings. ... However, one
> could, I think, also wire a 12 volt taillight in parallel to the
> *combined* primary and secundary headlights that are after all
> operating in joint 12 volt mode.
While I have seen the typical Superflash and TL-LD1000, as well as a lot
of their predecessors, I have never seen one of the wired-in taillights.
I have been recently told that the 4DToplight has about the brightness
of a steady Superflash, and with that I wonder what would be the most
effective: a single wired 12 V taillight or two 6 V taillights? With two
taillights, the overall size is larger -- which helps in visibility --
and with the dual-mode taillights you get some redundancy.
> Cyclists often get killed precisely because of
> insufficient off axis or lateral visibility. Therefore, European
> legislation forces taillight designers to sacrifice on-axis output in
> favour of better off-axis performance ....
I haven't looked at recent statistics, but wonder if that happens mostly
when cyclists don't follow the rules of the road... or when they ride on
one of those poorly designed paths that force them to be at odd angles
with traffic.
Don Perley
> Willem, I enjoyed your post. That is an interesting point about the
> difference in ambient lighting between Europe and the United States. I
> don't know if everyone from the United States who went to PBP noticed how
> little light is wasted in Europe.
>
> Having cycled in both Holland and the United States I would say there are
> other subtle differences too. Here is a compare and contrast chart for LED
> lighting:
>
>
> Holland:
>
> - Birds singing
> - Sun shining
That's the difference! For the most part we don't run our lights on
sunny days.
pdwh...@gmail.com
mounted on the front fork, and the Princeton Tec EOS as a headlamp.
This seems good for up to about 25mph, which I'm rarely in danger of
exceeding. Having the headlamp is useful for commuting (makes it easy
to catch driver's attention at intersections, and can be angled up or
down, in the spirit of high and low beams) and rando-riding (can point
the headlamp in the direction of turns, or repairs). The EOS batteries
(AAA) don't last as long as the Cateye's, so I only use it 'as
needed'. This combination of lights seems fine for me - even though my
night vision is merely 'OK'. Also, I carry the mounting bracket for
the EOS with, on the off chance that the Cateye dies. Not to mention
spare batteries. I have no plans on changing this lighting
configuration until something breaks or a significant, cost-effective/
cheap technology breakthrough emerges.
I run with two planet bike tail-lights. My observation as an
automobile driver is that reflective material is far more visible than
any tail-light I've yet observed. So I've dorked up the bike a fair
amount with reflective material, widely available from hardware
stores.
On Jan 10, 4:22 pm, erp4599 <erp4...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I have a friend that plans on riding brevets this year, and for the
> 600K plans on riding straight through.
> Since I have a SON setup and he is not interested in going that route,
> what lights do non-SON users recommend for a primary light adequate
> for the Wisconsin countryside?
>
> Eric Peterson
Tim McNamara
<snip yet another rant>
Shee-it, dude. Did you eat your Grouchy Flakes for breakfast?
I for one am tired of the constant blasts of negativity contained in
your e-mails. If bicycling sucks so badly, maybe you should take up
something pleasant like pottery or crocheting.
Ron Selby
Wisconsin brevet series last spring (except for the 600K), and I got
by (barely) with a Dinotte 200 (with NiMh batteries) running on low (I
have an unit purchased in late 2006 that has 2 settings). I carried a
bunch of batteries and rode all night on the 400K (I'm slow). My night
vision is lousy, and the Dinotte (on low) was really not enough light
for me, even at my 10-15 mph pace. At one point, I narrowly missed a
large, dead, raccoon that was in the middle of the road - I was pretty
tired at that point, but I'm convinced my less than adequate lighting
contributed to that near-accident. I upgraded to a SON and IQ Fly this
fall, and the combination of the Dinotte (on low) and IQ Fly is very
good. So, if your friend has good eyes and is willing to haul a few
AAs (8-12 total), he can possibly get by with a Dinotte for an all-
night ride.
Ron Selby
Harold Ikerd
For the most part I've ditched bike lights for smaller tactical flashlights [like the Fenix L2D - 2xAA's or P3D 2xCR123A]. I don't know what the current models are or the best ones out there but here are some of MY reasoning for the ones that I use :
- power: 11 lumens (65hrs) -> 50 lumens (13hrs) -> 112 lumens (4.8hrs) -> 200 lumens (1.8hrs)-> 112 lumens S.O.S (??hrs?) and a strobe at 200 lumens (??hrs)
- price: they are about $40-60 each plus batteries, plus battery charger,
- Size: they are about as big as a Swiss army knife
- Back up- I take 2 lights with me even when commuting. Mostly so I don't have to switch batteries while riding although I have. I can also turn on both lights for 400 lumen output; switch to the strobe mode; and/or switch intensity levels with a push of the thumb.
- Batteries - While this can get complicated to explain, there are a lot of options. Basically I ride using Li-rechargeable[CR123a] or NiMH-rechargeable batteries[aa's] day to day. When I tour I charge up 8 Li's [cr1234a's about the total size of a cell phone] which represents about 14 hours of 200 lumen light. I can use regular AA's in a pinch but at less output.
- Li-Charger: I use a 15 min charger for the road. It is about the size of an average computer mouse or your run of the mill Peromyscus. I also have a larger overnight charger at home that I started off with.
- Weight - I don't know if there is really a weight savings over something like the SON and IQ Fly but for a month long trip I'd even consider the SON. Each light weights about 50 grams - I don't think the entire unit with batteries weighs more than 100 grams.
- Attachments: I attach the light easily with zip ties [around the flashlight] and a Velcro cinch strap to attach the light to the handle bars.
- Strobe mode: having one light on a strobe really makes car drives stop and look twice. Now I know that many other lights have something like this and even some hub powered lights. The ability to have both running at the same time is fantastic regardless of your favorite rig...
- Rigging: With two lights on separate rigging, I also put one at 200 lumen and one at a lower lumen but pointed closer to my front wheel. The point here - being able to play with the amount of 'throw' the light has is fun when you have nothing else to do by peddle. Yes, the rigging looks a bit home grown but then there is not much to see. Two zip ties from the handlebar view and one velcro-cinch strap from the hub view.
- techie shit....Bulb/LED: LEDs have experienced a huge jump in efficiency. These lights seem to be outdated faster than your ipod software update... most of the current bike lights are using LED technology that is 1-2 years behind these.
- More Techie shit... I Have two lights that use the CR123a batteries and one that will take 1AA or 2AA's-
one rechargeable 14500 Li-battery 3.6V can substitute for 2 AA's - but running two 14500 with fry any system set up to 2 AA's> They are almost exactly the same size and can be made to work with a dummy battery [inside a flashlight body], smaller battery case and/or smaller flashlight body with the same LED-head.
Pay attention to the make and model of the LED you are using: LUXEON [ex. Rebel LED] and CREE [ex. Cree XR-E LED] seem to be the best sources of LED's AND they have proven to put out the lumens that they clam. A one watt light really means nothing when you are comparing brightness. Spending $10-30 more on a newer LED may give you a 30% increase in efficiency. Also, there is a huge difference between a 200 lumen manufacturer claim at the LED emitter and total throw at 1m after the light has passed through a lens.
There are regulated and non-regulated Li-cells. I'm not an expert on this so don't take this too seriously.... but using non-regulated Li-cells in some lights can cause a problem ->overheating, malfunction and ?explosion?.
Also regulations: I just heard that Li-cells are now on the "No No List" of carry on baggage - with a list of exceptions [camars, laptops... yada yada yada...]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
I have a friend that plans on riding brevets this year, and for the
600K plans on riding straight through.
Since I have a SON setup and he is not interested in going that route,
what lights do non-SON users recommend for a primary light adequate
for the Wisconsin countryside?
Well, to get back to the original topic. Eric, I also rode the
Wisconsin brevet series last spring (except for the 600K), and I got
by (barely) with a Dinotte 200 (with NiMh batteries) running on low (I
have an unit purchased in late 2006 that has 2 settings). I carried a
bunch of batteries and rode all night on the 400K (I'm slow). My night
vision is lousy, and the Dinotte (on low) was really not enough light
for me, even at my 10-15 mph pace. At one point, I narrowly missed a
large, dead, raccoon that was in the middle of the road - I was pretty
tired at that point, but I'm convinced my less than adequate lighting
contributed to that near-accident. I upgraded to a SON and IQ Fly this
fall, and the combination of the Dinotte (on low) and IQ Fly is very
good. So, if your friend has good eyes and is willing to haul a few
AAs (8-12 total), he can possibly get by with a Dinotte for an all-
night ride.
Ron Selby
On Jan 13, 6:13pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> On Jan 13, 2008, at 2:46 PM, David Cambon wrote:
>
> <snip yet another rant>
>
> Shee-it, dude. Did you eat your Grouchy Flakes for breakfast?
>
> I for one am tired of the constant blasts of negativity contained in
> your e-mails. If bicycling sucks so badly, maybe you should take up
> something pleasant like pottery or crocheting.
--
HW Ikerd
Hik...@gmail.com
FGG#4,405
Cell (214) 392-4213
Work [Bee Lab]- (435) 797-2526
http://ikes-adventures.blogspot.com/ - just updated...
albert meerscheidt
Albert
russell...@yahoo.com
About $55 delivered. It has two reflectors/lenses. Smooth and orange
peel. The orange peel is a wide, short throw beam. Its really too
short a throw for bicycles. Have not tried the smooth lens so can't
say how much further it throws. But the orange peel model is really
wide and pretty short throw so its highly unlikely the smooth would
even be suitable for bicycles. The L2D is a flashlight. The short
wide beam is OK, great, for a flashlight. I use this light as a
backup and it works well for that. The blinking mode is nice. And it
does produce lots of light with 2AA batteries. Just doesn't go too
far ahead of the front wheel. I sure would not recommend it for
bicycling as your main light source. I use a Two Fish brand holder.
Perfect holder, designed literally for this flashlight. I bought my
orange peel lens L2D from the Fenix Store. Smooth lens model is
available from other stores. This flashlight has the CREE new
brighter LED. Seoul Semiconductor is also making the new brighter
LEDs. Older Luxeon LED are not nearly as bright and not worth buying.
http://nordicgroup.us/s78/flashlights.html This website talks about
the Fenix flashlight and others. Just FYI.
On Jan 14, 8:42 pm, "Harold Ikerd" <hik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now I haven't completed an overnight brevet but I do a lot of commuting on
> icy roads at night along with the occasional night touring-I've gone into
> this way more than this thread necessitates but I hope that it helps.
>
> For the most part I've ditched bike lights for smaller tactical flashlights
> [like the Fenix L2D - 2xAA's or P3D 2xCR123A]. I don't know what the
> current models are or the best ones out there but here are some of MY
> reasoning for the ones that I use :
>
> lumens (??hrs)
> charger,
> 3. Size: they are about as big as a Swiss army knife
> 4. Back up- I take 2 lights with me even when commuting. Mostly so I
> on both lights for 400 lumen output; switch to the strobe mode; and/or
> switch intensity levels with a push of the thumb.
> NiMH-rechargeable batteries[aa's] day to day. When I tour I charge up 8 Li's
> [cr1234a's about the total size of a cell phone] which represents about 14
> hours of 200 lumen light. I can use regular AA's in a pinch but at less
> output.
> size of an average computer mouse or your run of the mill *Peromyscus.
> *I also have a larger overnight charger at home that I started off
> with.
> 7. Weight - I don't know if there is really a weight savings over
> consider the SON. Each light weights about 50 grams - I don't think the
> entire unit with batteries weighs more than 100 grams.
> this and even some hub powered lights. The ability to have both running at
> the same time is fantastic regardless of your favorite rig...
> point here - being able to play with the amount of 'throw' the light has is
> fun when you have nothing else to do by peddle. Yes, the rigging looks a bit
> home grown but then there is not much to see. Two zip ties from the
> handlebar view and one velcro-cinch strap from the hub view.
> update... most of the current bike lights are using LED technology that is
> 1-2 years behind these.
>
> Others notes/FYI/techie babel [read at your own risk] :
> one rechargeable 14500 Li-battery 3.6V can substitute for 2 AA's - but
> running two 14500 with fry any system set up to 2 AA's> They are almost
> exactly the same size and can be made to work with a dummy battery [inside a
> flashlight body], smaller battery case and/or smaller flashlight body with
> the same LED-head.
>
> Pay attention to the make and model of the LED you are using: LUXEON [ex.
> Rebel LED] and CREE [ex. Cree XR-E LED] seem to be the best sources of LED's
> AND they have proven to put out the lumens that they clam. A one watt light
> really means nothing when you are comparing brightness. Spending $10-30 more
> on a newer LED may give you a 30% increase in efficiency. Also, there is a
> huge difference between a 200 lumen manufacturer claim at the LED emitter
> and total throw at 1m after the light has passed through a lens.
>
> some lights can cause a problem ->overheating, malfunction and ?explosion?.
>
> Also regulations: I just heard that Li-cells are now on the "No No List" of
> carry on baggage - with a list of exceptions [camars, laptops... yada yada
> yada...]
>
>
>
> I have a friend that plans on riding brevets this year, and for the
> 600K plans on riding straight through.
> Since I have a SON setup and he is not interested in going that route,
> what lights do non-SON users recommend for a primary light adequate
> for the Wisconsin countryside?
>
> - Show quoted text -
Steady As She Goes
> You mentioned pedal reflectors, but didn't mention ankle bands.
>
> As a cyclist and and a driver in an area with lots of cycles on the roads,
> ankle bands do the most to help me identify that a bicycle is on the road in front of me.
I noticed this when I drove and picked up a pair years ago.
I also find them handy for containing my pants cuffs, often using the
black side facing out during daytime,
and the Velcro straps have more than once secured items to my bike or
saddlebag.
The thin ones are better for this, but the wide ones better for
retroreflection.
And nice Blade Runner quote, Joe!
albert meerscheidt wrote:
> Hitting Pedestrians? Those pedestrians had better stay on the sidewalk where
Nice. Where do you live? Seattle?
And here I was, thinking too many cyclists around Boston disrespected
pedestrians.
I hope that viewpoint doesn't come back to bite you.
Ray
erp4599
I'll have to sift through the responses for useful advice applicable
to the stated problem, which was recommending a light for riding all
the way through the night.
There were lots of tangential responses, about commuting, and bright
taillights, and so on, interesting but not helpful to the original
question.
I'll be sticking with my SON and twin-E6 lights, along with an IXON
for backup.
I may even upgrade to the "Ride and Charge" product from PWC.
Maybe my friend will simply be riding alongside of me!
Eric Peterson
On Jan 10, 6:22 pm, erp4599 <erp4...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I have a friend that plans on riding brevets this year, and for the
> 600K plans on riding straight through.
> Since I have a SON setup and he is not interested in going that route,
> what lights do non-SON users recommend for a primary light adequate
> for the Wisconsin countryside?
>