GPS discussion
Lonnie Wolff
Larry Powers
I guess in reality a GPS is nothing more then a fancy bike computer that also has maps built in. Still it seems that having a satelite tell you where you are takes away from the self supported aspect of the sport. I have been on too many rides where someone's GPS fails and they don't have any understanding of how to find where they are on the Q sheet and in one case they didn't even have the Q sheet. While I have always helped these people complete the ride I felt some how cheated by this.
As much as I would like to see GPS units banned from brevets it is probably inevitable that they will become a standard piece of equipment in the near future. I am sure it is only a matter of time before someone develops a commercially viable device to power A GPS from a generator hub and then they will become the norm.
Larry Powers
Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live. - Mark Twain
From: lon...@oldairhead.com
To: ran...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Randon] GPS discussion
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 07:57:02 -0600
Greg
riding with a friend, and we got off course and separated at about
9:00pm. I made what I thought was a correct turn, which was a loooong
descent into a desolate valley. It had been raining all day and my
clothes were still wet, it might have been in the 50s or high 40s. I
was nearly hypothermic because I had a jersey, some arm warmers, a
windbreaker, and no knee warmers. At the bottom of the descent I
couldn't see any taillights ahead of me or headlights behind me. I was
too tired to climb back up the hill to retrace my route, unsure of
where I was, and started to panic about my ability to get out of that
valley. I pressed on and in about 10 minutes a rider came up behind me
and he agreed to ride with me to the finish. He always knew where the
next turn was, and how far it was. I asked him about it and he
explained the concept of a GPS. I bought one the next week.
Irrespective of cue sheets v. GPS as a navigational device, brevet
routes put riders into unpopulated, under-traveled, unmarked roads
late at night. Sometimes in bad weather. Sometimes in dense fog. If a
rider is lost, a cue sheet may help, but a GPS absolutely will help.
It may be the difference between sitting on the side of the road
waiting for help and getting back to the finish safely.
Rule #1: Cue sheet is king. If I think I'm off course, I triangulate
my position with the cue sheet, the GPS, and common sense. It hasn't
failed me yet.
Greg
Donald Perley
Rule #1: Cue sheet is king. If I think I'm off course, I triangulate
my position with the cue sheet, the GPS, and common sense. It hasn't
failed me yet.
Donald Perley
At 12:41 PM -0400 10/14/09, Donald Perley wrote:
One of my more frustrating century experiences.... after 10 miles on one road, it's time for "Left on Foobar Road" and there are 3 possible left turns in 0.1 miles, none of them signed as Foobar Road. The correct choice was signed as "County Rt 12" but the locals knew so it was good... for them.
A good reason for brevet organizers to check the roads on the ground, rather than relying on the mapping software. I doubt GPS would help you in this case, either... but a correct cue sheet would.
dickf...@sympatico.ca
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
-----Original Message-----
From: Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:50:38
To: <donp...@gmail.com>; <greg.o...@gmail.com>
Cc: <ran...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Randon] GPS discussion
>One of my more frustrating century experiences.... after 10 miles on
>one road, it's time for "Left on Foobar Road" and there are 3
>possible left turns in 0.1 miles, none of them signed as Foobar
>Road. The correct choice was signed as "County Rt 12" but the
>locals knew so it was good... for them.
A good reason for brevet organizers to check the roads on the ground,
rather than relying on the mapping software. I doubt GPS would help
you in this case, either... but a correct cue sheet would.
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com <http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com>
Greg
you get back on course? It may even take several minutes or miles to
realize that one is off course. Or, a rider may be on course, but
somehow believes they're not. A GPS helps resolve both of those
situations.
The reason I got off course in that double was that I was using a
Polar wireless odometer on my handlebars and when I turned on my HID
headlight in the afternoon, the electromagnetic radiation from the
light (I later learned) intermittently disrupted the transmission to
the watch, making it useless as an odometer. The cue sheet was
correct, my ability to use it was compromised. The GPS doesn't suffer
from that type of interference, which makes it a great Odometer.
Greg
Eric Keller
same day as a Granite Anvil ride report. From most accounts, having
a GPS on Granite Anvil was a significant advantage due to less than
adequate cue sheets. It's clear that you can't always count on the
RBA to do a good job. I have never even used an odometer for a
brevet, but I am considering getting a GPS. I've ridden with people
who had a GPS, and it can be much less stressful. I am not really
all that interested in navigating. There was one brevet I rode last
spring where the road signs for 5 cues in a row had been removed by
vandals. There is nothing an organizer can do about that. But it's a
fairly large leap of faith for a rider that does not know the area
they are riding in. Similarly, on many brevets there may be long
distances between cues. I need some ratification from an outside
authority to enjoy a 20-30 mile stretch. I simply do not enjoy the
anxious feeling of not being sure I'm on the right route. I'm out
there to ride.
Eric Keller
Charles Coldwell
>
> I am sure it is only a matter of time before someone develops a
> commercially viable device to power A GPS from a generator hub and then they
> will become the norm.
Done.
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/09/dahon-freecharge-turns-pedal-power-into-usb-power/
--
Charles M. Coldwell, W1CMC
"Turn on, log in, tune out"
Winchester, Massachusetts, New England (FN42kk)
GPG ID: 852E052F
GPG FPR: 77E5 2B51 4907 F08A 7E92 DE80 AFA9 9A8F 852E 052F
Charles Coldwell
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Larry Powers <lapow...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I am sure it is only a matter of time before someone develops a
>> commercially viable device to power A GPS from a generator hub and then they
>> will become the norm.
>
> Done.
>
> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/09/dahon-freecharge-turns-pedal-power-into-usb-power/
B+M, too
http://www.bumm.de/index-e.html?docu/361e.htm
russell...@yahoo.com
On Oct 14, 12:11 pm, Jan Heine <hein...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> come to Seattle to check my brevet courses? Most would rather come
> and ride the event!)
>
> A diligent route checker - even one familiar with the course - would
> have seen that the route sheet instruction "Turn on Foobar" didn't
> match the sign "County Rt 12," and would have changed the route sheet
> accordingly.
>
> From pre-riding courses, I know it's easy to fall into the trap of
> simply enjoying the ride, and referring to the route sheet only when
> needed for my own sake, but the thought of an entire crowd of riders
> lost usually keeps me on my toes.
>
> Even so, I have to admit to a few embarrassing occurrences. Once, I
> accidentally put "left" instead of "right" on the cue sheet, but
> fortunately, both roads eventually merged again. Once, a bridge was
> removed the night before the event, but fortunately, I was on the
> course, and could redirect the riders. And once, a closed road (but
> legal for non-motorized traffic) was dug up to make it impassable for
> all-terrain vehicles. Again, fortunately, I was on the course and
> able to warn riders and offer an alternate route for those preferring
> not to carry their bikes over a couple of ditches. We had a close
> call with our last 600 km brevet - a rockfall before the ride was
> cleared just in time for most riders, but another big slide closed
> one of the roads at least for the rest of the year.
We had one of these occurrences on the 600k in Kansas City in 2007.
About 40 miles after the start there was water across the road. A
foot or so deep. 100 yards or so. Came up a few hours before the
ride started. We were able to get through with the white line of the
road shining up through the water. About 30 miles further south we
came upon another road covered in water. Much longer but not as
deep. Just a few inches or so. A bit unsettling to ride through
water in the middle of the night. Later in the day when we came back
home the water had receded and all was clear.
>
> Things happen, and that, too, is part of what makes randonneuring fun
> and challenging. But occurrences like that should be the exception,
> not the rule.
> Jan Heine
> Editor
> Bicycle Quarterly
> 2116 Western Ave.
>
> - Show quoted text -
jake Kassen
> Even so, carrying maps of the region you travel is useful, whether
> paper or electronic - I did so during my first ride in PBP. If you
> are lost, you can figure out quickly where you are and where you
> should be, and how to get where you should be. It came in handy when
The primary reason why I carry a GPS is because when I'm lost I
frequently *cannot* figure out exactly where I am! I used to carry maps
but found I would spend far to much time riding around just trying to
figure out where I was so that the maps would be useful. With a GPS I
know where I am and what's around me. A GPS is an electronic map with a
big "You are here" sticker.
With this key piece of info I can use the cue sheet for primary
navigation and enjoy the ride. Riding with a GPS is no different then
riding with a friend who knows the area well.
Jake "On a bus wishing I was on a bike" Kassen
Paul Kramer
woods, looking for a turn.
I go up and down the desolate road, my headlamp shining through the
rain onto the pines, straining to see a street sign where one should
be.
Finally, I dig through my bag and pull out my car's GPS device, hook
it to my AA-battery backup power source, turn it on, stand there in
the rain....
Lo and behold, it knows where I am! And it shows me that the tiny road
I'm looking for is about 100 yards away.
I tuck the GPS away.
I reach the road and see why I missed it: its rusted sign is totally
obscured by branches and with my light pointed up its almost
impossible to see where the road interrupts the thick wall of trees.
I'm all for using the cue sheet and feel its an integral part of the
overall experience for me (and having followed it is one more
accomplishment that gives me pride upon finishing),
but being afraid of coming upon bears and chainsaw-wielding locals in
the dark woods at night, I'm glad technology can help out in a pinch.
joshua
On my first ever Brevet, a populaire, I was about 5 turns from the
finish and stopped across the road where the turn was to read all the
signs on the corner of the road none of which indicated the street
name. The distance from the last turn if I recall was something like .
2 kms, and after re-reading all the signs to make sure that it wasn't
the correct turn, I pushed onward, thinking that the route sheet had a
possible distance error ( I was also a bit new and confused as to how
to read the cue-sheet). After traveling down a heavily trafficked
road for a few kms, I decided to backtrack, thinking I missed it
somewhere. At the exact intersection that I stopped to examine the
signage, from the other direction was a clear as day street sign being
blocked from the other direction by a tree. After that, rather than
relying on a GPS, I've learned to read a route sheet correctly, been
better able to estimate my speed in relationship to gearing and
cadence, and on 200k's and above that I'm unfamiliar with I try to
spend some time on google maps with the route sheet and see where
there might be trouble areas, like getting through a larger town, all
of which help in being able to navigate. It seems to work pretty well
for me. I have had a couple instances where I pulled out my iPhone to
get back on track, but the phone uses cellular towers to triangulate
and some of the places i've ridden its absolutely useless. On one
occasion, I was with another rider who consulted his GPS, and I looked
on my phone, but neither of us had any clue as to where we should go,
the path we had taken ended in what appeared to be a quarry. On both
his GPS and my phone it appeared that we were on a road that should've
gotten us where we wanted to go. What did we do? We asked a local
couple who were out walking their dog where the correct pathway was
and they were able to help us.
I cite these two instances to point out that sometimes, like the first
account, a GPS could be a useful navigational tool, but in the second
instance, it was absolutely useless. I favor accurate, easily read
maps for navigating when a cue sheet isn't accurate or available, but
I am unable to find any that are of sufficient quality or are up to
date with all the new roads being constructed and re-routed. While
technology is a wonderful thing ( I love the internet and the
computer on which I access it) in and of itself it is not necessarily
the greatest thing. GPS's still have to rely on accurate mapping
software.
I'm a bit of a ludite. I don't use a cycle-computer, mostly because
they've all crapped out on me and partly because of aesthetic
reasons. I don't have a GPS, but I have used them and think they have
their place. I have an iPhone and if I have to have a cell phone in
this day and age, its nice to have a mini computer in my pocket. But I
don't rely on any of these things solely while navigating. I use a cue
sheet as my main navigation source, again, checking it against Google
maps to make sure I know what to expect beforehand.
Nothing beats having someone pre-ride the route, but even that can
result in errors and things going overlooked. It would be a pure
luxury if there was a readable map from the organizer included with
the route sheet, but I can imagine that would be difficult to pull off.
Be safe out there and remember, you're not "lost" if you're still
having fun!
Joshua Bryant
PDX, OR USA
Nick Bull
uses horses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mounted_orienteering
Perhaps they'd like to start a bicycle-mounted auxiliary.
As I understand it, randonneuring is not intended to be a sub-sport of
orienteering, any more than hiking is a sub-sport of orienteering.
For that matter, I was visited recently by a friend from another
planet, who knew that "randonneur" is a French word, and who
mistakenly looked it up on the French version of Wikipedia. He found
the following entry, http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randonneur which is
all about hiking around the countryside.
I tried to put him to rights, pointing him to the google:Randon group,
the RUSA website, etc.
But being a purist, and somewhat dogmatic, once he had got it in mind
that a randonneur is someone who hikes around the countryside, he got
all up in arms about the corruption of the sport with technology, with
these two-wheeled "bicycles" being the main thing that had him
bothered. "Cheaters never prosper," he said, and argued that the
rules should be changed to ban from randonneuring any locomotion
method other than using your own feet in direct contact with the
ground with no interposing technology. He also said that using maps
and existing trails takes out half of the fun of hiking, which he
thinks should be all about reconnoitering in unspoiled wilderness
terrain, and finding your own route, using only the stars and the
signs in nature to guide you. Don't even get him started about roads!
But I told him that randonneurs are a welcoming crowd, and that they
are accepting of all types of people and technologies, so long as they
all take the "cue sheet" as their primary guidance for getting
around. I encouraged him not to petition for rules changes to ban
bicycles, as so many of us "randonneurs" like to use them.
Fortunately for us "randonneurs," he had to cut short his visit to
this planet because of an emergency Board meeting of his Space
Swimming Club.
Nick
On Oct 14, 10:31 am, Larry Powers <lapower...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I always thought that map reading and queue sheets were a part of the game. Using a GPS for a brevet seems to me to be about as wrong as using one for orienteering. I have taken a quick look at the RUSA sited and could find nothing to support this belief. The only thing I could find was that riders were responsible for finding their own way.
>
> I guess in reality a GPS is nothing more then a fancy bike computer that also has maps built in. Still it seems that having a satelite tell you where you are takes away from the self supported aspect of the sport. I have been on too many rides where someone's GPS fails and they don't have any understanding of how to find where they are on the Q sheet and in one case they didn't even have the Q sheet. While I have always helped these people complete the ride I felt some how cheated by this.
>
> As much as I would like to see GPS units banned from brevets it is probably inevitable that they will become a standard piece of equipment in the near future. I am sure it is only a matter of time before someone develops a commercially viable device to power A GPS from a generator hub and then they will become the norm.
>
> Larry Powers
>
> Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live. - Mark Twain
>
> To: ran...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [Randon] GPS discussion
> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 07:57:02 -0600
>
> I have been following the discussion of using a GPS navigating devices while riding brevets and am surprised by how many people seem to rely on them to find their way during a event. I guess I am a little disappointed that for some it is the primary tool they use for route rinding. I think that I am more traditional about many things and I prefer to do my navigation the old fashioned way. I ride a steel bike too, although many people say that carbon is better.
>
> I have used a GPS myself on some rides (Garmin 305) but mainly as a back up odometer and to record other route data such as elevation gain etc. I found that dealing with the reliabilty, battery issues and other needs of the device were more than I cared for and I stopped using it. I took away from the ride for me personally.
>
> In the west there has been a great deal of developement in roadways over the past decade. Many information sources such as online mapping tools or data sets provided with mapping software are not up to date. I have been using a road around a local reservoir as part of an event for 4 years that still does not exist on Google earth. A fairly recent version of Streets and Trips does not show a local freeway interchange that has been in place for 10 years. I do not know how a GPS unit would handle these type of issues, but the cue sheet is clear. Perhaps this problem does not exist in other regions but I could cite dozens of examples of this locally.
>
> My fear is that GPS will infiltrate the sport too much, perhaps to the point where it may be almost necessary to use one to follow a given route. If an RBA personally favors GPS route finding methods and provides such data for his riders, then his printed route sheets may not be adequately prepared. We have all encountered errors on cue sheets and if for some these became secondary navigation tools, then less care may be given in their preparation. You simply cannot print out turn by turn directions from a mapping tool since they will rarely match the real world. Riders who navigate traditionally may suffer as a result.
>
> For me, cue sheets will be what I provide to riders at my events. I put up a preliminary version before the event and hand out a final version at the start. Any other tools that a rider may wish to use will be up to them. I have often had to do a last minute re-routes due to road construction or unsafe riding conditions. Your GPS doesn't have local knowledge of current road conditions or other safety issues, thats why we have RBA's. My focus will continue to be on rider safety.
>
> Lonnie Wolff
> Regional Brevet Administrator
> Southern Utah Regionwww.subrevet.org
>
> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
Tom Rosenbauer
easy-to-miss turn.
-Tom Rosenbauer
Eastern PA RBA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Kramer" <pskr...@yahoo.com>
> ...I reach the road and see why I missed it: its rusted sign is totally
> obscured by branches and with my light pointed up its almost
> impossible to see where the road interrupts the thick wall of trees.....
Glenn Ammons
> The primary reason why I carry a GPS is because when I'm lost I
> frequently *cannot* figure out exactly where I am! I used to carry maps
> but found I would spend far to much time riding around just trying to
> figure out where I was so that the maps would be useful. With a GPS I
> know where I am and what's around me. A GPS is an electronic map with a
> big "You are here" sticker.
That sounds nice. Right now, I navigate by cue sheet, by paper maps,
and by looking over the route before the ride. Can anyone recommend a
GPS to replace the maps? It should be small and reliable. It would
only come out of my bag if I got lost, so it doesn't have to be
waterproof, it doesn't need to mount to the bike, and it doesn't need
a long battery life.
I do have a cell phone with GPS but that's not reliable because no
signal means no maps.
Thanks.
--glenn
West Chester, PA, USA
Todd Williams
Kentucky brevets where the RBA is a dedicated hard worker and takes the time
to mark the route?
And don't say that marking the route goes against the spirit of
randonneuring! They mark the route on PBP don't they?
Respectfully submitted,
Todd Williams
Donald Perley
I do have a cell phone with GPS but that's not reliable because no
signal means no maps.
elgeneralsv
Charles Coldwell
>
> My carrier (Verizon) has it all locked up so you can't access it
> yourself, only through a paid service that puts you on a map, gives you
> directions, etc.
Presumably, this will change, at least for devices that use the 700
MHz spectrum that Verizon bought at the recent FCC whitespace auction.
That is the spectrum to be used by their 4G (LTE) devices. Google
bid in that auction in order to get the FCC to include an "open
access" condition in the license, so presumably any device using the
700 MHz spectrum will have to allow third party software. Google was
interested in this for their Android platform, and was happy to lose
the auction to Verizon since they don't (yet) have a wireless network
service.
BTW, the 700 MHz "whitespace" used to be used by broadcast television
and was freed up by the switch to digital.
Bill Gobie
On Oct 14, 2009, at 10:35 AM, Charles Coldwell wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Charles Coldwell
> <cold...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Larry Powers <lapow...@hotmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> I am sure it is only a matter of time before someone develops a
>>> commercially viable device to power A GPS from a generator hub and
>>> then they
>>> will become the norm.
>>
>> Done.
>>
>> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/09/dahon-freecharge-turns-pedal-power-into-usb-power/
>
> B+M, too
>
> http://www.bumm.de/index-e.html?docu/361e.htm
On Peter White's site:
"We expect to have the new PedalPower+ and Busch & Müller E-WERK
chargers here by late November, 2009"
Bill
Bill Gobie
On Oct 14, 2009, at 12:08 PM, Glenn Ammons wrote:
> Can anyone recommend a
> GPS to replace the maps? It should be small and reliable. It would
> only come out of my bag if I got lost, so it doesn't have to be
> waterproof, it doesn't need to mount to the bike, and it doesn't need
> a long battery life.
On Oct 14, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Paul Kramer wrote:
> Finally, I dig through my bag and pull out my car's GPS device, hook
> it to my AA-battery backup power source, turn it on, stand there in
> the rain....
> Lo and behold, it knows where I am!
I think Paul has the right idea. Choose a GPS for your car, and bring
it along on rides. I never thought I would have a car GPS, but now
that my wife & I have one, it is amazingly convenient. I haven't
tested ours to see how long it would run on its internal battery. I
suppose a longish runtime is desirable so you wouldn't need to mess
with a backup power supply.
Bill
Steve Rice
Jerry Zornes
unthought of way to get lost or off course. I have a GPS a use as a
really accurate cyclo computer. Even then I tend to look at it less
han I look at cue sheets and I read cue sheets in big blobs and only
then refer to them again when I'm confused, past where I'd already
read, or as Jan said make sure the pace versus time seem right.
If the cue sheet reference fails to resolve my confusion I refer to
the GPS. Its just anothe tool. In the arsenal. Perhaps I became
accustomed to using them while Mtn. Biking. They can be literal life
savers when standing many miles from anywhere in rugged terrain and
you aren't exactly sure where you are. A topo base map some good
wayoints and the situation becomes a lot less theatening. The sames
true on the road even if the risks aren't the same.
Sent from my mobile device
JZ
RobMnUSA
many of us that ride brevets in different parts of the country or on
roads we are not familiar with. I have been on too many rides whether
through an error in the cue sheet or a lapse on my part, I become
navigationally challenged, i.e. lost. Most of the time the source of
the problem is fairly easy to diagnose, backtrack and continue on the
ride, but there are situations where the consequences are potentially
more serious.
A good cue sheet is the bible, but GPS is a great technology that can
increase your enjoyment of a ride and reduce the stress of being on
unfamiliar roads sometimes in very unfavorable (i.e. rain, cold,
night) conditions. This is true whether the GPS used as a tool to
augment the cue sheet or the primary source of guidance for the
rider. It is shortsighted not to take advantage of technology when it
has a good purpose. How many randonneurs carry a cell phone just in
case the something happens?
One thing that Lonnie pointed out though is very important;
the point where it may be almost necessary to use one to follow a
given route. If an RBA personally favors GPS route finding methods and
provides such data for his riders, then his printed route sheets may
not be adequately prepared. We have all encountered errors on cue
sheets and if for some these became secondary navigation tools, then
less care may be given in their preparation. You simply cannot print
out turn by turn directions from a mapping tool since they will rarely
match the real world. Riders who navigate traditionally may suffer as
a result. "
need to be the ultimate guidance and ride leaders need to use the cue
sheet as the primary tool to communicate the route to the riders.
The other key point I heard and agree with is the need/necessity for
ride leaders to preride their courses and verify the cue sheets are
golden and the roads are in good riding condition. This step alone
eliminates most routing problems.
The final aspect of navigation that hasn't had a lot of discussion is
the Bill Olsen named WPPS (White Paint Positioning System) that
probably has kept more riders on course and confident than the best
cue sheet or GPS readout. While technically illegal on many (all?)
roads, and subject to competition from other rides, races, motorcycle
rallys and actual highway department uses, these tools (which BTW used
to be called Dan Henry arrows) are great. We WPPS all our routes and
haven't lost a randonneur in years. I would be interested in hearing
what the low tech purists have to say about WPPS.
Lynne Fitz
of nights before (this is me riding the brevet, not me verifying the
cue sheet), and make notes on the cue sheet if street names differ.
There was a populaire a few years back, where the street name had been
changed, and the old signs were removed. Yet the cue sheet had the
old street name, because it was generated from a mapping program. We
all got lost for awhile!
A brevet route should always be verified in person.
Lynne F
On Oct 14, 10:21 am, Jan Heine <hein...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> At 4:56 PM +0000 10/14/09, dickfel...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> >I beg to differ Jan - the act of laying out a route in Mapsource
> >forces a person to check the distances and next turn to make sure
> >the right road has been chosen - to me this is advantage - deciding
> >which road (even the one without the sign) sitting at home in my
> >easy chair.
>
> turn off within 0.1 miles is the correct one, you would know which
> road to take, even without knowing the name. More likely, your map
> (and GPS) will show only two of the three roads (one of them being a
> driveway that looks like a road or a road not shown on the maps), and
> you still wouldn't know whether you should take the second or third
> road of the three. (At least, you would have eliminated the first
> road.)
> Even so, carrying maps of the region you travel is useful, whether
> paper or electronic - I did so during my first ride in PBP. If you
> are lost, you can figure out quickly where you are and where you
> should be, and how to get where you should be. It came in handy when
> have numbers that are indicated on most road signs, so once I began
> having doubts about my direction, it was easy to realize my error,
> and figure out how to get back on course.
Christine & Larry Graham
LG
From: Steve Rice <sr...@insightbb.com>
To: ran...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:05:31 PM
littlecirclesvt.com :: mike beganyi
I have a new BB, and there are several apps that will give you heading
(if moving), lat, lon, altitude (based on GPS) - without a map.
I'm fairly certain these work without the data stream from a cell
tower required to run SprintNav, TeleNav, GoogleMaps, BlackBerryMaps,
etc.
Testing now. Turned the radio off and opening a simple 'SignalLoc'
utility.
Yup. Worked to give me lat, long, gps alt, and heading.
-Mike
On Oct 14, 3:37 pm, Donald Perley <donper...@gmail.com> wrote:
Charles Lathe
I have a lot less experience as a randonneur than many of you, but I
have completed five 600K brevets and I have found significant errors
on the cue sheets for at least four of those brevets. Two of those
errors jeopardized my chances of finishing the brevet. Calling a cue
sheet, "King," "Bible," "Ultimate Authority," doesn't make sense to
me. They are created by people much like me and prone to be wrong. I
don't think the errors are always the ride organizer's fault.
Sometimes they just happen.
As for pre-riding all the courses and checking all the distances,
signs, and cues, I don't think that's practical. When I began
randonneuring in 2005, I joined SIR. That is a big club with lots of
volunteers. Courses were pre-ridden and there were still cue sheet
problems. Now I ride in the Southeast, were randonneur groups are
smaller -- on one 600K there was only one official finisher and on
another there were seven finishers and five volunteers on the course.
With our low entry fees, many brevet organizers aren't even covering
their expenses in our region. It's not reasonable to expect even more
service from them than they already provide.
Since 2006, and for all my 600K brevets, I have navigated with a watch
and cue sheet. I determined that if I can do it, it can't be very
difficult. The way a bicycle looks is extremely important to me and
that's why I don't like to junk up my fork and handlebars with a cycle
computer. However, I have been won over by arguments for, and
demonstrations of, the GPS devices. They are ugly, and very
expensive, and I sure would like to test ride one before forking over
that much money, but from what I have seen, I believe they could make
my randonneuring experience even more enjoyable.
We have more randonneuring opportunities each year in North Carolina
and it looks like we will see another big increase next year. There
are going to be errors in the cue sheets. Cue sheets provided at
brevet starts, with last minute updates, are going to be printed in
too small a text to be read by many of us at night. Maps of the area
are not practical for us since any map large enough to cover a brevet
route will not have the detail to show many of the roads we use --
unlike the West, we have a very old and dense network of roads.
Obviously, GPS is not yet necessary, but I think it sure could
increase the fun factor -- if I can get past the ugly bicycle
hebejebes.
Chuck Lathe
Franklinville, NC
Glenn Ammons
> Maps of the area are not practical for us since any map large enough
> to cover a brevet route will not have the detail to show many of the
> roads we use -- unlike the West, we have a very old and dense
> network of roads.
The idea of not having to pack maps is why I'm GPS-curious, too. I
usually rip pages out of a Gazetteer, which have enough detail except
in towns, but long rides usually require ripping out a _lot_ of pages.
Then, if you need to consult the map, you have to leaf through all of
those pages to find your location. It's a minor pain, but still a
pain, and all just in case you get lost, which doesn't happen that often.
NickBull
Even when ride organizers pre-ride their event, sometimes conditions
on the ground change between the pre-ride and the actual event.
Sometimes even the day before. It is impossible to guarantee that the
cue sheet will be "correct". Nonetheless, something has to define the
official route, and the alternatives (road markings, GPS, volunteers
standing at every turn?) are either impractical or impossible.
WIth respect to WPPS / Dan Henry's, these were marked on most of the
EM1240 and on BMB and PBP. It's really nice to have them there, as it
helps inspire confidence that you've correctly interpreted the cue
sheet and made the correct turn. That said ...
1) On EM1240, at mile 244.7 in Owego, my GPS "told" me to go right at
an intersection where the somewhat-confusing signage made it seem like
maybe I should go left and cross the river. I followed the GPS since
I was in traffic, and then continued to follow it for a QL, and then
pulled over to re-read the cue sheet. Well, I misread it and
concluded the GPS must be wrong, so then I thought I'd turn back and
look for the WPPS. There wasn't one on either of the corners I had
turned at. Then I re-read the cue sheet and realized that I had
misread it and the GPS was correct after all. So the one place I was
confused, there wasn't a WPPS where I needed it.
2) On the third night of BMB 2006, it was raining so hard that the
road surface was covered with a sheet of water and I couldn't see any
of the WPPS's. For that matter, I couldn't see the cue sheet either.
I stopped under a streetlight, wiped off the cue sheet, compared it to
the GPS's "directions page", confirmed that the GPS directions matched
the cue sheet up to the next control, and then just followed the GPS
for the rest of the night.
3) Our RBA already spends huge amounts of time on our behalf, and to
ask him to paint markings on the roads (even if allowed) is just
asking way too much, in my opinion. I do think that learning to read
and follow a cue sheet is an essential skill for a randonneur, since
GPS's may fail and WPPS's may disappear from view.
Nick
Steve Palincsar
> WPPS's may disappear from view.
Several times I've seen roads repaved and arrows obliterated entirely in
the week between painting century arrows and the date of the event.
Ingle, Bruce
> I think Paul has the right idea. Choose a GPS for your car, and bring
> it along on rides.
I admit I hadn't considered these possibilities...automotive GPS' are
far more cost-effective from economies of volume and being able to
locate your position on a map is most of the value of having a GPS.
Looking around a bit, it appears the TomTom ONE 130 is available
refurbished from Amazon for ~$75 and comes ready to go with maps for US
and Canada.
And looking at my Granite Anvil results...I was riding with Daniel
Fisher through Colborne (the last control before the finish), then
parted ways with him at a coffee shop after that so he could take a
break and ride at his own pace. I then misunderstood the cue sheet and
took quite a while to get back on course, even with my own preprinted
turn-by-turn maps, at least partially because I couldn't locate my
position. Dan finished the ride 23 minutes faster than I, and I think
it's safe to say I'd have finished as fast or faster if I'd have stayed
on course.
Is an extra 23 minutes or more on a 1200km worth $75? Not sure. Some
weight weenies like to spend a buck a gram on weight reduction; just
taking it easy and sticking with Dan would've cost nothing and
potentially netted the same time difference, although there'd have been
no way of predicting that in advance. :)
In any case, the price of technology is always decreasing, and it will
be at least several months and possibly a year or more before my next
timed ride (or drive) by cue sheet alone on an unfamiliar route in North
America, so there's no pressure for me to buy one right away.
thanks, Bruce
andy
gpx files) from a computer to a TomTom ONE device?
It was not obvious in the user's manual or spec sheet.
Thanks,
Andy
prestonjb
* If a RBA or RUSA bans the use of electronic maps then I will quit
simply because that would be a stupid thing. I feel a lot more safe
with the GPS then without it. That does not mean that I can't
navigate without it. I always carry the Q sheet and any other
information with me just in case the electric one fails... What if
your computer fails?
* If a RBA does not do an adequite job of creating a Q-sheet and other
paraphernalia that is required to fully understand the objectives and
the route then I will not ride in that region
+ This includes checking that the road conditions are good and free of
construction or other (exception if road construction moves in at last
minute without RBA being able to know in reasonable time)
+ I agree that pre-ride does not always handle these issues nor does
road marking but both are trying to reduce the problems with
navigation and road conditions/issues
comment about the grand anvil stuff... When I did Shenandoah this year
the front group was scorching up the roads ESP the 14% grades... I
decided no way I would be able to keep up so I backed off and ended up
riding alone... About a half hour later all fothe sudden the front
group comes up around me... I ask how they got behind me ... "uh... we
missed a turn" was the comment as they proceeded to again drop me a
few miles later.... Not to sound like a broken record but then
ANOTHER HALF HOUR later HERE THEY COME AGAIN... hee hee... I'm still
going to laugh about that... esp when I asked again and they said
again "uh... we missed a turn"...
A day later I ended up riding with another rider and we were chatting
and not paying attention like we should... Then my GPS started gawking
at me and we rolled passed the turn... I said to him we missed a turn
and need to turn around... he said... "I see the difference between
using a GPS and not... When using a GPS you miss turns by YARDS not
MILES ;)
Happy turkey day!