The Venus Project is answering questions on tonight's Sunday evening update from ImmInst
Bryan Bishop
This is some late notice, but Edward Miller just informed of a live
chat and video stream session with the Venus project. Time to grill
'em!
http://www.thevenusproject.com/ (which seems to be dead?)
the announcement:
http://www.imminst.org/forum/Sunday-Evening-Update-February-21st-5pm-EST-2200-GMT-t38355.html
the stream: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sunday-evening-update
Tune in on Sunday February 21st at 5pm EST, 2200 GMT.
STB
for trying to pass that scam. The Venus project makes no sense and is
hypocrite effort to make money for himself. All his models were
exposed as non realistic and having taken nothing into consideration
like materials location or populations as all his models act like no
one lives on this planet and all is in plenty. He also asked for a non
money world but goes strait to money in credit form to prove he has no
clue. The round city is all wrong and had no logic to it at all. Basic
things jacques fresco thinks are old 50's stuff where he still is
stuck.
sure he had the dream but none of the answers! Each time he is asked
what to build he say a city but his is junk and has no science to it
and was exposed as such on National Tv by captains of industry that
did go to his home only to leave saying he was nothing close to
anything worth anything and non invested in him or his 1/2 child mind
models. He charged 10,000 a show to speak but say nothing any old man
of 80 would say and I knew all my life. His concept of a no money
world is not his at all but everyone's from the dawn of money. His
concept of cities make no sense because he does not face the core
factors as FAMILY that KINDS or needs of the kinds of kinds.
Mr fresco does not even grasp the world population or the amount of
things going on or the size of corporations because he is still in the
fifties that he never left.
he lies about how things could of been built in 1927 even after the
experts said that none of his models were practical or logical even
his first invention was just a solar oven that he thought was an
aluminum house but it only cooked people so no one built it! Junk is
junk if you have no clue about the facts of science! poor Jacques
fresco has the right dream but not one single tool to reach it other
than popularity that he should not have since he was exposed by the
national TV and captains of industry as just a want to be futurist
with nothing but child level models full of serious flaws so not one
single one of them could be used in real life. Anyone can go look at
his life's work and see it is just plastic models and swamp land that
he wanted to turn into a city and be rich and famous... he is famous
but as a scam artist exposed still passing his lies and con job asking
for money 20 years later but still can't tell you any of the science
or materials still because he never bothered in his life to do the
real work. Over and over again we see his concept full of flaws and
hypocrite asking of money to build a city that can't be built because
no plans on earth exist of it to start with because it is just a silly
model he made not taking into account any of the reality factors. His
automated future is as insane as it gets as all Humans know they need
to do something to be healthy but not Jacques that thinks we all sit
and do nothing for life because machines do it for us...even star trek
futures has humans working because humans NEED to work!
In his clips on you tube you see serious mistakes in all his works but
he blunders onward as if his answers were viable. He can't build the
city because he only has swamp land and demands it be on his
land...see the con job? In fact experts said his tiny junk homes would
cost more than large ones and his automated devices would cost more
than the known ways to build now...not very logical to just think we
make giant cranes that take nothing about science into account like
wieght, wind resistance, load barring, building of it and removal of
it...3 times the cost of today is waste of time! He did not take into
account anything of importance from wind to waves to populations or
land use crops.... nothing! he is a fail!
I personally find it insulting o see so many people run to him only to
be told follies to then be asked for money to build a city on his own
land that is a swamp with an island in it. I really resent the name
futurist put on him when all he is is a failed inventor from the late
40's.
The Venus project is not even his personal concept! it is as old as
humanity and so he had nothing to do with it other than repeat what
others teach.
His models 100% all junk and completely wrong can't exist because you
would have to be insane to build same and just think to act different!
never worked in history!
so Jacques was exposed as a scam artist using the futurist word to
pass junk claims and ask for money and charge 10,000 to speak like an
old man that can be replaced by any old man that is not capitalist at
heart.
His models are all wrong and none of them pactical from basic water to
sewage missing to all kinds of reality factors not taken in like wind,
wave, erosion, fire, populations even housing is all wrong costing 3
times more in waste, he has no clue still of materials today to prove
he never even thought of basics!
His silly almost insane concept of a central computer library for
scientist is a joke insult to all that know the web exists today
because they built it to do just that! Poor jacques is lost in the
fifties.
he faced not war, strife, neglect, abuse...such things are not part of
his thinking at all and he only assumes they vanish with his city
built that can't be built because no plans exist and no one ever made
any or ever will because it is not logical or practical or even sane
to build it there in the swamp he wants to get rich on even on his
ending years. He magically thinks people will not argue or make kids
or do crime just on his say so and zero else!
he thinks people will act different if using money digital instead of
money (ya it is insane stuff). He is popular with kids and asked to
come only to be asked questions that he can't answer...so why does he
claim to know if he can't answer the questions? Can you build it? yes!
out of what? Non combustible materials...but what kind? "that is not
for me to say" Over and over he refused to answer the questions we
all want answered because he does not have the answers and he doe snot
have the materials or the experts or plans...just models and greed for
cash to his death bed.
YOU HAVE TO TAKE EVERYTHING HE SAY WITH A GRAIN OF SALT...a BIG grain
of salt!
now go learn about wave power and how you can build instant shelters
using concrete fiber that can save the world with the basics of a home
and an easy way to make it permanent..you build onto the shelter in
COB and make it a super home far beyond all Jacques fresco mind
limits. You can raise a village in a day and in just a year or so it
become a permanent village built to function and last thousands of
years... we are far in advance of Jacque that is stuck in the fifties
with even older concepts of the planet and its needs. he is like the
dart player that see the board unlike most but sure can't hit it and
even less the bull's eye. All that glitters is not gold! When you look
at him again take the grain of salt and pay attention to EXPERTS that
rejected him and his silly project full of major flaws.
On Feb 21, 1:27 pm, Bryan Bishop <kanz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> This is some late notice, but Edward Miller just informed of a live
> chat and video stream session with the Venus project. Time to grill
> 'em!
>
> http://www.thevenusproject.com/(which seems to be dead?)
> the announcement:http://www.imminst.org/forum/Sunday-Evening-Update-February-21st-5pm-...
> the stream:http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sunday-evening-update
>
> Tune in on Sunday February 21st at 5pm EST, 2200 GMT.
>
> - Bryanhttp://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507
Edward Miller
is quite ironic that his beloved engineers and experts have rejected
all of his own ides. The fact that he needs to announce a list of
supposed amazing achievements he has done should probably serve as
evidence that he actually isn't very amazing.
Eric Hunting
Eric Hunting
erich...@gmail.com
On Feb 22, 2010, at 4:37 AM, openmanufact...@googlegroups.com wrote:
> The Venus Project is answering questions on tonight's Sunday evening update from ImmInst
> Bryan Bishop <kan...@gmail.com> Feb 21 12:27PM -0600 ^
>
> Hey all,
>
> This is some late notice, but Edward Miller just informed of a live
> chat and video stream session with the Venus project. Time to grill
> 'em!
>
> http://www.thevenusproject.com/ (which seems to be dead?)
> the announcement:
> http://www.imminst.org/forum/Sunday-Evening-Update-February-21st-5pm-EST-2200-GMT-t38355.html
Paul D. Fernhout
> [Stuff about engineering issues with the Venus Project]
There was always something that felt a little scammish to the Venus Project,
but that could be said of a lot of worthwhile endeavors, given our current
economy where it is hard to have enough time to do good stuff on the side
when working a full-time job and raising a family.
To Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows credit, they seem to be trying to do
more opens source stuff lately.
As you suggest, maybe he's saying the things that any older person who was
not a complete convert to unregulated capitalism would say.
"Jacque Fresco -- JacqueTalk"
http://www.youtube.com/user/jacquefresco
But the important thing is, he is saying them. I think what resonates with
young people is the general themes of abundance as well as his comments on
past political follies. And there is a lot of truth to at least some of it,
like how it is better to change the environment in positive ways than to
pass laws. For example, if most addictive behavior is the result of a
stressful environment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
then what does that say about the real solution to drug addiction and a
million people (or so) in US jails over drug related crimes?
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/majority.htm
So, Jacque Fresco is right in that sort of way, for sure.
I've written some stuff critical about aspects of the Venus Project on this
list, mostly emphasizing that Fresco handwaves away the issues of values.
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/3743c17d86b9c5ab?hl=en
Values ultimately are "religious" (even if they can be secular religious),
but Fresco seems to argue values will just emerge out of science. I have big
problems with that.
Albert Einstein wrote about that in 1930:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm
"""
For the scientific method can teach us nothing else beyond how facts are
related to, and conditioned by, each other. The aspiration toward such
objective knowledge belongs to the highest of which man is capabIe, and you
will certainly not suspect me of wishing to belittle the achievements and
the heroic efforts of man in this sphere. Yet it is equally clear that
knowledge of what is does not open the door directly to what should be. One
can have the clearest and most complete knowledge of what is, and yet not be
able to deduct from that what should be the goal of our human aspirations.
Objective knowledge provides us with powerful instruments for the
achievements of certain ends, but the ultimate goal itself and the longing
to reach it must come from another source. And it is hardly necessary to
argue for the view that our existence and our activity acquire meaning only
by the setting up of such a goal and of corresponding values. The knowledge
of truth as such is wonderful, but it is so little capable of acting as a
guide that it cannot prove even the justification and the value of the
aspiration toward that very knowledge of truth. Here we face, therefore, the
limits of the purely rational conception of our existence.
But it must not be assumed that intelligent thinking can play no part in
the formation of the goal and of ethical judgments. When someone realizes
that for the achievement of an end certain means would be useful, the means
itself becomes thereby an end. Intelligence makes clear to us the
interrelation of means and ends. But mere thinking cannot give us a sense of
the ultimate and fundamental ends. To make clear these fundamental ends and
valuations, and to set them fast in the emotional life of the individual,
seems to me precisely the most important function which religion has to
perform in the social life of man. And if one asks whence derives the
authority of such fundamental ends, since they cannot be stated and
justified merely by reason, one can only answer: they exist in a healthy
society as powerful traditions, which act upon the conduct and aspirations
and judgments of the individuals; they are there, that is, as something
living, without its being necessary to find justification for their
existence. They come into being not through demonstration but through
revelation, through the medium of powerful personalities. One must not
attempt to justify them, but rather to sense their nature simply and clearly.
"""
So, that is what I see as the biggest problem of the Venus Project. The
engineering issues you raise could be fixed. That core confusion, the
assumption that values emerge from science, probably can't. Science (and
technology) can help refine values, but, as Einstein said, science cannot
create values in the first place, even the simple value of valuing the love
of discovery that drives many scientists.
With that said, I think overall Jacque Fresco represents a lot of good
values. He just won't admit they are essentially humanistic values as
essentially a secular religion. I have no problem with people saying they
uphold certain values because they feel they are important and building from
there; I have a lot of problems with people who try to argue their values
emerge purely from science.
The biggest danger there, IMHO, is then how that confusion links to other
ideas about governance by the machine that is set up by scientists and
technologists in a supposedly "objective" fashion. Again, I have no problem
(in theory) with saying we are going to make a cybernetic management system
that reflects values that we arrive at by some political process that makes
sense; I do have a big problem with saying some scientists are going to make
such a system based on objectivity.
The question is always, who pays the costs, who gets the benefits, and how
do we all feel about that? And feelings are essentially more in the
religious sphere than the scientific sphere (even if science can study
feelings).
By the way:
"George Lakoff: Why "Rational Reason" Doesn't Work in Contemporary Politics"
http://blog.buzzflash.com/contributors/3014
"Real reason is inexplicably tied up with emotion; you cannot be rational
without being emotional. False reason thinks that emotion is the enemy of
reason, that it is unscrupulous to call on emotion. Yet people with brain
damage who cannot feel emotion cannot make rational decisions because they
do not know what to want, since like and not like mean nothing. �Rational�
decisions are based on a long history of emotional responses by oneself and
others. Real reason requires emotion."
Also related:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descartes%27_Error
With that said, considering all the other follies in this world, like US$5
trillion (or whatever) total for the Iraq war and Afghan war and whatever
else the USA is warring against (I lost track, is the US at war against
parts of Pakistan, for example?), on that scale, the Venus Project is not
much of a folly, and has much to recommend it as at least a positive
optimistic inspiration. And there is a lot to be said for optimism, even
when aspects of it are not realistic. In general, depressed people are more
realistic, but the probably also get less done. :-)
Also, I'd be equally suspicious of captains of industry panning something
that threatens their world view. :-)
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm
"""
I�ll bring this down to earth. Try to see that an intricately subordinated
industrial/commercial system has only limited use for hundreds of millions
of self-reliant, resourceful readers and critical thinkers. In an
egalitarian, entrepreneurially based economy of confederated families like
the one the Amish have or the Mondragon folk in the Basque region of Spain,
any number of self-reliant people can be accommodated usefully, but not in a
concentrated command-type economy like our own. Where on earth would they
fit? In a great fanfare of moral fervor some years back, the Ford Motor
Company opened the world�s most productive auto engine plant in Chihuahua,
Mexico. It insisted on hiring employees with 50 percent more school training
than the Mexican norm of six years, but as time passed Ford removed its
requirements and began to hire school dropouts, training them quite well in
four to twelve weeks. The hype that education is essential to robot-like
work was quietly abandoned. Our economy has no adequate outlet of expression
for its artists, dancers, poets, painters, farmers, filmmakers, wildcat
business people, handcraft workers, whiskey makers, intellectuals, or a
thousand other useful human enterprises�no outlet except corporate work or
fringe slots on the periphery of things. Unless you do "creative" work the
company way, you run afoul of a host of laws and regulations put on the
books to control the dangerous products of imagination which can never be
safely tolerated by a centralized command system.
"""
Really, in an ideal world, Jacque Fresco would just have the resources he
needed his whole life to work together with others in an open way on
whatever he wanted to. That he, and the rest of the world, have not had that
chance, when there is so much abundance in the world, is the big tragedy.
That's something I've been talking about in this thread I started on
Slashdot (one of the few posts I've made that have been modded up to +5 :-):
"The irony of military robots is... (Score:5, Interesting)"
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1558202&cid=31223328
> now go learn about wave power and how you can build instant shelters
> using concrete fiber that can save the world with the basics of a home
> and an easy way to make it permanent..you build onto the shelter in
> COB and make it a super home far beyond all Jacques fresco mind
> limits. You can raise a village in a day and in just a year or so it
> become a permanent village built to function and last thousands of
> years... we are far in advance of Jacque that is stuck in the fifties
> with even older concepts of the planet and its needs. he is like the
> dart player that see the board unlike most but sure can't hit it and
> even less the bull's eye. All that glitters is not gold! When you look
> at him again take the grain of salt and pay attention to EXPERTS that
> rejected him and his silly project full of major flaws.
I'd love to see more details of these ideas on wave power and instant
shelters and Cob construction and new villages, etc. I think you are right
that amazing technical possibilities have opened up since the 1950s with new
materials and new ideas.
Even just stuff like nitinol wire, discovered in 1962. :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_titanium
How do you see those ideas being put together? Can you link to some examples
of what you think should be done or more about the technologies you think
are especially useful?
--Paul Fernhout
http://www.pdfernhout.net/
====
The biggest challenge of the 21st century is the irony of technologies of
abundance in the hands of those thinking in terms of scarcity.