is meta currency project ready to be marketed as "most advanced" ?

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

Dear Sam, Robin, Jean-Francois, Michel, Jean-Luc, Bernard, Topi, Smari, Josef, Alex, Sepp, Thomas, Chris, Edgar, David, Fernanda, Eric and Arthur , and opencc  bcc: Joerg

I want to check in this message if the impression I get, as a non-programmer, in relation to the meta-currency project is correct.

I have a bunch of interrogations, which may seem inter-related. I did not feel like cutting the links between certain questions so this mail may seem a bit lengthy.

I want to have a better perception of the explicit and implicit politics of potentially inclusive, or exclusive current processes in development related to the development and implementation of wealth tokenization protocols,

of its marketing, and its potential emergence.

An understanding I have come to, through previous conversations with some of you, being that the meta currency project may have the potential of bringing together currency transformers, or wealth tokenization entre-donneurs,

despite it, if I understood properly, being a specific separate software project, by enabling it to become some kind of api ?

There is a variety of currency software projects, and I am asking myself questions regarding the politics that potentially brings such projects together, to collaborate, or to distance each other.

My understanding may be that the meta currency may serve as an api to various other currency softwares ?

I also question myself concerning a potential hyping I perceive regarding the meta currency, and ask myself if this is only my own perception, or if a shared perception, if it is created intentionally ?

What makes some people, such as Jean-Luc Roux, say that the meta currency project is "most advanced" ?

Is it most advanced in its architecture ? Most advanced in its development ? Most advanced in its notoriety ?

And if it is most advanced through its architecture, is it because of its potential inclusiveness ?

If hyped, is it an intentional marketing strategy for the projects and grant applications that may be in the process ? ,

for which people such as Jean-Luc, Bernard and possibly others may be applying for ? - with all my respect for the inspiration and work they, and others I am cc ing made available to us till now , and what they can bring to the movements in terms of recognition.

Nothing bad per se, but I try to understand, and question potential consequences on alternative wealth tokenization movements and projects as a whole.

example : http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Exchange_Infrastructure_Projects

And if it is beneficial, does it intend to promote a basket of existing or developing ( open source , copylefted ? ) projects,

or is there a invisible, undeclared "competition" between such wealth tokenization projects, even open source , api , projects ?

( I do not declare this is bad per se, but I try to understand its dynamics )

Where does the inclusiveness lie, other then the open source software development, and , as far as I understand it ( I may be wrong ),

its potential as some kind of wealth tokenization systems api ?

I am aware I may want to discuss this through http://openmoney.ning.com/

of which a (related ? ) software project

http://projects.openmoney.info/

Hence, I wonder what you think about the meta currency project in its current form?

http://metacurrency.org/

I do notice an alpha release that can be tested on

http://flowplace.webnode.com/alpha/

I am very grateful for the work done on the meta currency project, especially as I personally do not have the programming skills to contribute to it,

and I am looking forward to supporting its realization in other ways when possible.

This is why I am sending this message - I would personally not want the meta currency project to suffer in the future from current potential over hyping,

marketing it as something it may not be ready for at the moment ?

I am also very grateful for work done by Jean-Francois Noubel, and hes conferences

Except that I sometimes feel that there is, currently, a potential contradiction between what may in some cases seem to be preached with what may be done.

I feel there is awareness about this, which perhaps may have lead Jean-Francois Noubel to write a Vow of Wealth - http://people.thetransitioner.org/profiles/blogs/vow-of-wealth , and which perhaps also made him change hes approach to asking or using resources lately ? 

I have no problems with inconsistencies itself, as I have my own, and awareness in itself may be a first step on the roads me or others may choose for,

but in this case what I focus on is potential "hyping"...

What may be the differences between what some of us may preach, and our actual experimentation with it ?

For example, when getting the impression that the meta currency project may be something that may already be operational,

and hearing that other people may believe that the metacurrency project may be the most developed platform,

I feel like verifying... Is it really so ?

I am certainly enthusiastic about such approaches,

and experimented with distributed resource use optimization for a number of years, including through a nomadic hitch hiker lifestyle,

but notice that there may still be great resistance from other people as in its current form I realize such approach may require a certain sacrifice at a material, social, etc level ( see maslow myramid ),

and the tools that may potentially enable a form of emergence which may not require such sacrifice do not seem to be fully operational yet,

which makes me weary of the way a "marketing approach" to such potential may be used...

How do you feel about it ?

Also see below, or online for Jean-Luc Roux public post on the r2ning...

Furthermore, I feel like adding I see a strong parallel, potential collaboration with , for example, the F2F platform, ( as compared to metacurrency "projects in progress" - see below )

( Robin's pdf presentation of F2F :  FF103 ; https://sourceforge.net/projects/friend2friend/. It needs PHP5, and matches the documentation at http://wiki.friend2friend.net )

concerning all the "projects in progress"...

Robin's tokenization is focused mainly on, as I understand it, requests in relation to reputation in a gift economics approach.

Cordially,

Dante

http://hitchwiki.org/en/Dante

----

http://www.metacurrency.org/

Projects in Progress

• Visit our projects site
• Polyresolver – identity management
• XGFL – for open rules (try creating your 
  own currencies in the flowplace)
• MCP – transport protocol
• CongoDB – distributed data engine

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:12 AM, R2 Global Meshwork <ma...@r2meshwork.ning.com> wrote:

A message from Jean-Luc Roux to all members of Complementary Currency project on R2 Global Meshwork!

Dear all,

I will join the international workshop organised by Jean-François Noubel the 13-16 March on open currencies and tools adapted for each type of currencies project. The metacurrencies plate form is certainly the most advanced.

Please see the link : http://www.metacurrency.org/

I ll keep you aware later.

Cheers

Jean-Luc

Visit Complementary Currency project at:
http://r2meshwork.ning.com/groups/group/show?id=2902900%3AGroup%3A4143&xg_source=msg_mes_group

--
To control which emails you receive on R2 Global Meshwork, go to:
http://r2meshwork.ning.com/profiles/profile/emailSettings?xg_source=msg_mes_group

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

Thanks Sam for your prompt reply,

no, I do not have the feeling they are used yet, not that they seem to be usable, despite alpha release on flow place,

and the hype I seem to perceive around it makes me question the potential marketing, or even potential political implications ( such as grants ), in comparison with other similar projects.

Cordially,

Dante

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Samuel Rose <samue...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
<dante....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Sam, Robin, Jean-Francois, Michel, Jean-Luc, Bernard, Topi, Smari,
> Josef, Alex, Sepp, Thomas, Chris, Edgar, David, Fernanda, Eric and Arthur ,
> and opencc  bcc: Joerg

Dante, are there any communities or people who are currently using
metacurrency protocols or software for real-world problem solving,
right now? In my opinion, that is the best way to evaluate something
like this. A byproduct is that this evaluation can help the
system/software by aligning it's deployment more closely with the
needs of people who hope to use it.

In communities I am working with here in the midwest US, people are
reporting currently being more comfortable working with physical
alternative currency rather than digital. So, our efforts here are
supporting that for now. Over time, I believe people will be more and
more interested in digital currencies here.

As for using metacurrency as an API/Protocol, I'd definitely do it in
those cases where it represents the best option for doing so. As you
may or may not know, we're working on a little bit different approach,
which we'll be releasing over the next few months, but should
inter-operate with anything else that affords open standards.



--
--
Sam Rose
Forward Foundation
Social Synergy
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samue...@gmail.com
http://socialsynergyweb.com
http://forwardfound.org
http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
http://socialmediaclassroom.com
http://localfoodsystems.org
http://notanemployee.net
http://communitywiki.org
http://wikieducator.org

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

Thanks Sam.

Very constructive suggestion.

Yes, I am interested in understanding various needs, and understand how there may be a potential mutual support according to such needs,

in between and for software developers, in between software projects, and in the way such softwares may be used, and in between communities using such softwares.

I am also aware I can also use other existing pages, such as open money.

In the meantime,

I created a very basic page on 

http://cashwiki.org/en/Tokenization_Politics

to whom anyone knowing existing links which can support such approach are invited to add them.

I am also particularly interested at how political support, coming not only from individual communities using such tools if and when they are implemented,

but before their finished development, such as in the form of grants,

may benefit what I see as a broader wealth tokenization movement ( whether for symetrical or asymetrical exchanges )

Cordially,

Dante

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Samuel Rose <samue...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson
<dante....@gmail.com> wrote:

Dante, if there are people you are trying to help use something like
metacurrency, I'd like to recommend that the first thing you could do
is simply put together something on a wiki page somewhere for that
particular group of people that is a needs assessment/evaluation of
what those people are saying they need, putting aside any technology
that may or may not exist. Then, you can use this to judge what would

be useful for the group you are working with, driven by their needs.--

[Alex Rollin]

I am not aware of anything digital with the scope, and potential scale of Metacurrency. 

Art Brock is a genius.

If you have not already, then please do look at the design doc here: http://metacurrency.org/docs/design

From my interactions with Art he is one of those folks who listens to concerns and sees them through to structural implementation in ways that respect systematic management and flexibility.

Alex
I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.- Socrates

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

Thanks Alex, and Sam for your replies.

I did not mean to re-question what seem to be distributed architectures in relation to metacurrency,

first of all because I still have work to do in relation to understanding them in detail, hence I thank you for the documentation links,

but what I do question is rather the politics some of us may already be involved in,

or choose to involve oneself in,

or rather the potential there may be in maintaining or building up transparency in relation to such politics,

various politics who may decide to use certain approaches in using or promoting these designs,

so my questioning concerns interests related to various approaches  in supporting their own projects,

and how such politics may influence the implementation of the designs in itself,

and how this may relate with political support ( including grants ) related to this and other alternative currency projects,

hence beyond the political implications of architectures of the token exchange systems itself,

with what support such systems are being developed or implemented, various potential common or differing interests,

and where joint partnerships may be happenning, in relation to the political support gathered in relation to such kind of "marketing".

Hence trying to understand the "perceptions" and "impressions" that may be communicated.

Thanks again,

Dante

[Arthur Brock]

I wasn't aware of any "hype" about the metacurrency platform being the most advanced anything.

We are definitely promoting the need for an open platform for the next economy as an "open sourced," P2P economy.  And the metacurrency platform is our vision of how to get there.

The metacurrency platform is ridiculously ambitious in its full scope and we have not nearly completed building all of its components. However, there are parts that have been completed in early stages and that we are beginning to use.

We've launched an alpha of our Open Rules engine which is used to run the Flowplace as a multi-currency, multi-community platform.  We've got an early version of polyresolver built to provide P2P name resolution for identities across multiple flowplaces.  We have not completed our Open Data, Open Transport or Open Identity protocols, but parts of them are being integrated in the beta version of the Open Rules platform we're building.

As far as being the "most advanced." There are three ways that I would suggest we are more advanced than any other currency platforms I've encountered.

1) We provide powerful flexibility and inclusiveness for "currencies" that most other groups haven't considered as currencies yet. This includes ratings, metrics, exchanges, meta-exchanges, votes, reputation, etc. And we are quite specifically not building our platform around ONE of those approaches but ALL of them.

2) Our architecture provides the means to have completely non-centralized currencies. And I don't just mean P2P/Distributed, but where no individual or group has more powers than others. This includes system administrators. As far as I know, nobody else is addressing this fundamental power-imbalance built into all modern technology architectures.

3) Our platform has the potential to fundamentally replace Internet protocols and become a true distributed computing platform. Replacing IP Addresses, DNS and providing the means for true P2P cloud computing.

However, let me be clear that we are by no means the most mature or most stable or most used.  We are in many ways a newcomer to the field and have yet to prove that we will accomplish our outrageous goals.

The question I'd be asking is whether you want to support these goals and whether this is the best project through which to accomplish them.

If you are looking for a quick solution to a fairly traditional problem, then Metacurrency is probably not the tool you need to use.

Arthur Brock
The Geek Gene
http://www.geekgene.com
Skype: artbrock

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

Thank you Arthur for your reply.

Your reply is very clarifying to me, in addition to documentation available on the internet.

I am interested in supporting such distributed approach, and understand how other people interested in contributing can best be included, or empowered to be included in promoting such systems.

I appreciate grassroot approaches, but am aware that it may be a more complex network of initiatives which may be potentially supporting such developments, a network which does not exclude existing power structures.

Perhaps I am already thinking too much ahead, so much so that perhaps one may ask what exactly I am asking for :)

Although I do feel that such questions may directly relate to what a young amateur such as me may perceive.

Hence I felt entitled to cc some of you. Most of you met me, or may have interacted with me, but not all of you, which may make my questions more difficult to position for some.

I do feel that once they will be available, such protocols and how they will be used will have a strong political effect,

and currently I am interested in understanding who ( politicians, interests groups, foundations, ... ) may feel encouraged to support such systems development and implementation,

and how some of us may lobby in favor of convincing a certain allocation of existing mainstream financial tokens into empowering certain of their projects,

and then what the interests of each of our projects may be, and how they may eventually be mutually supportive, or inclusive, beyond the software aspect of it.

In other words, as for enabling transparency over how we lobby our way in converging resources and political support.

Hence my questions regarding "impressions", and your response which may clarify some of these impressions.

I will further be involved in such aspects in the near future, as an amateur and self learner, involved in various european networks,

and based in Brussels.( some more details below )

I am also aware that although it may still seem rather post-political,

that various people interested in currency systems may have various ideologies,

which is also a field I am interested in keeping track over, while at the same time maintaining cooperative efforts.

To give a more pragmatic example, I am for example interested in understanding what grant partnerships may currently be in process ?

Or which grant applications could be proposed collectively ?

Cordially,

Dante

some context related to me :

I am still young ( just turned 27 ), but already have a history of involvement in so called representative political spheres,

and also in the field of international not for profit organizations,

which actually lead me to become more and more weary of various interests and political approaches,

and lead me in the last years to timely opt out of existing institutions, without necessarily excluding cooperation,

by experimenting with alternative approaches in the field of lifestyles, and collaborative governance.

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Samuel Rose <samue...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Alex Rollin <alex....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am not aware of anything digital with the scope, and potential scale of
> Metacurrency.
> Art Brock is a genius.

I will agree with this :-)


My message is no criticism of metacurrency or Art Brock. I hope that
metacurrency as a project succeeds, and is widely adopted.

Neither is mine. I mean, my questions revolve in part around how people may use the image of the metacurrency project, as a way of accessing grants,

and how they may use these grants to further their own projects. 

My statement is more for Dante (if he finds it useful): a way for
Dante to frame anything he might consider applying by putting in the
context of people he's working with and what they are asking for.

Yes, perhaps the context was not framed properly in my last messages.

Sorry for any potential confusion if anyone felt so.

I sometimes feel my messages are clear enough, but perhaps as they require a lot of reading to understand,

they may not come out as such.

Cordially,

Dante

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

just to be sure there is not too much confusion :

"The question revolves around the use of the image of a currency software project, for the promotion of individual projects, before the release of the finished software itself".

"It also revolves around the politics of marketing currency projects."

Cordially,

Dante