Idiotic invoices[OT]
Keith Allpress
and they said a modem should arrive by Wednesday 7th October. By the
following Saturday 10th October I phoned them. They told me that the
order had been held up in accounts because of a credit check. Then I
found out that they had my date of birth wrong, and they told me that
this was why the order was delayed. Then when they read it back to me, I
noticed that they had my address wrong. This was particularly annoying,
because I had been careful to explain the address originally.
Then I phoned Vodaphone/IHug and decided I liked their friendly
attitude. So I phoned back Orcon and told them I wanted to cancel the
order. I was asked if I would accept a discount as an incentive, which
I refused. I was assured that my order was cancelled, and I placed an
order with Vodafone/Ihug for phone and internet.
Vodfone provisioned the connection for me on the 22th October and I
finally got on line at my new address, and it has been running happily
ever since.Well you would think that would be the end of it, but Orcon
keep sending me invoices. I have made dozens of phone calls to them to
try to stop the invoices, but to no avail.
They even went back to play the first phone call on the 10th of October,
and then sent me an email saying that "I have listened to the phone
call on the 10th that contradicts to what you are informing us of".
Then it also goes on to say "If you still want to cancel the services
with us, I can arrange this, please let me know at your earliest
convenience".
Hardly a day goes by without another reminder or invoice. I called Orcon
and told them yet again to stop invoicing me. I wrote back and told
them to check the calls properly, look for a call just after the one
they found.
I said in my email "I am asking yet again for an acknowledgement from
Orcon that the order was indeed cancelled. I do not expect further
invoices from Orcon, and I suggest that you review your records more
carefully, because I do not wish to be hassled any further over this
matter, it has already taken up far too much of my time".
I called Vodafone/ihug recently to ask if they were indeed supplying my
service, and they said yes, they checked it for me, and that if anybody
else was supplying it then Vodafone/ihug would not have been able to
provision it. You cant supply it twice. Likewise nobody can install it
on top of another supplier either. But today I got another one from
Orcon saying that the order has been finally completed, and yet another
request for payment.
They record all their calls, so should I ask for a transcript of the
telephone conversations? But really I am wondering what they think they
are trying to achieve? Has anyone else had an experience like this? What
should I do now?
Karl
If it is impossible to 'double-stack' a provision, maybe get Vodafone/iHug and Orcon to both send you proof of supply. If VF CAN and Orcon CAN'T, that should add weight to your polite P**S-OFF, ORCON request...
Also ask them for proof of delivery of the modem as well... again, with both.
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 16/11/2009 at 11:49 a.m. Keith Allpress wrote:
>I placed an order for naked Broadband with Orcon Internet on 3 October,
> ...
> --saga--
> ...
>should I do now?
---
Karl
Senior Account Manager
www.KIWIreviews.co.nz ... Where Your Views Count
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
Jochen Daum
Hi,
I'd try to meet with someone at Orcon in person. Otherwise to keep your sanity possibly talk to your lawyer.
Kind regards,
Jochen
Mobile: 021 567 853
Phone: 09 630 3425
Email: j...@automatem.co.nz
Skype: jochendaum
Web: www.automatem.co.nz
Keri Henare
---------------------------------------------------
Keri Henare
(Views expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.)
[e] ke...@henare.co.nz
[m] (+64) 021 874 552
[w] kerihenare.com
Stu Meads
Dmitry Ruban
I'm not joking, you could try to contact
http://tvnz.co.nz/fair-go/contact-team-767759
I saw an episode with similar situation a while ago, but that was
slingshot case not orcon.
Aaron Cooper
What product or service did you invoice for exactly?
Aaron
----- Original Message -----
From: <seba...@eternal-nike.com>
To: <nzp...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:32 AM
Subject: [phpug] Re: Idiotic invoices[OT]
+1 from me for this,
worked for me in a similar case, they refused to pay but left me alone
immediately with all other botherings.
Cheers,
S
Jochen Daum
my phones to 2talk.co.nz at the moment partially for that reason and
they record all your calls automatically.
Kind Regards,
Jochen Daum
Chief Automation Officer
Automatem Ltd
Phone: 09 630 3425
Mobile: 021 567 853
Email: j...@automatem.co.nz
Skype: jochendaum
Website: www.automatem.co.nz
http://twitter.com/automatem
http://www.xing.com/go/invite/3425509.181107
http://php.meetup.com/10
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:31 AM, <seba...@eternal-nike.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I invoiced "additional effort to resign from the contract".
> Cheers,
> S
>
>
> On Tue 17/11/09 10:23 AM , "Aaron Cooper" <sup...@zanzomedia.com> wrote:
>> Question:
>> What product or service did you invoice for exactly?
>> Aaron
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From:
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:32 AM
>> Subject: [phpug] Re: Idiotic invoices[OT]
>> +1 from me for this,
>> worked for me in a similar case, they refused to pay but left me
>> alone
>> immediately with all other botherings.
>> Cheers,
>> S
Aaron Cooper
By law, you have to notify caller of that though, correct or misconception?
A
Jochen Daum
I haven't checked it with a lawyer, but a telecommunication specialist
told me that only one party needs to be aware of the recording.
However, this is a new service that I will be introducing for clients,
so I will of course say in every phone call: " we record all
conversations"
Kind Regards,
Jochen Daum
Chief Automation Officer
Automatem Ltd
Phone: 09 630 3425
Mobile: 021 567 853
Email: j...@automatem.co.nz
Skype: jochendaum
Website: www.automatem.co.nz
http://twitter.com/automatem
http://www.xing.com/go/invite/3425509.181107
http://php.meetup.com/10
Phill Coxon
> Hi Jochen
>
> By law, you have to notify caller of that though, correct or misconception?
A long time ago (8 years?) I had a lawyer tell me that it was not
illegal to record phone calls without telling the other party that it
was being recorded.
He said it *was* potentially illegal to make use of any information
recorded to manipulate the other party - any sort of bribery for
example.
I use "skype-call-recorder" under linux to record skype calls. It's
brilliant for recording client consultations because it starts
automatically when starting or receiving a skype call and prompts me to
ask if I want to continue recording the call.
It records each party in a separate channel (left / right) so I can
adjust volume levels independently if I'm giving a client a copy of the
call. This is fantastic for recording interviews or client
testimonials.
Generally I don't tell clients that I'm recording consulting calls. 99%
of the time it's just to help me make better notes (if needed) after
which I immediately delete the call unless I've agreed to provide them a
copy.
However, on rare occasions I have recorded calls without the other
party's knowledge when I know (or strongly suspect) that I'm being
misled or lied to.
I'd much rather have a copy of a call on file that definitively proves
what I claim is true if a future dispute arises.
If that ever happens (it hasn't yet) I'll let my lawyer figure out
whether the call can be used as evidence.
At the very least being able to quote back exactly what was said in a
past discussion "word for word" can be very useful.
Phill Coxon
> A long time ago (8 years?) I had a lawyer tell me that it was not
> illegal to record phone calls without telling the other party that it
> was being recorded.
http://www.tuanz.org.nz/blog/35597212-63c7-42ac-9f09-b11740cee745/73cd3990-1d43-403e-a9c3-989fe754571d.html
Tiny URL in case the above link breaks:
http://tinyurl.com/yl2dtvb
Very interesting read.
kal...@ihug.co.nz
intimates a benign purpose. It is such widely used "new-speak" that it does
sound like a euphemism for wanting to know what happened, for their own
purposes. Can they use those conversations to justify invoicing a customer
for services in dispute?
You have a good point, I would be surprised if the act does allow them to
re-purpose the collected information, even at the suggestion of the person
it was collected from.
There is no doubt in my mind that the privacy act prevents any information
that is collected for training, derived from a recorded exchange, from
being used for any other purpose than training. Certainly there is nothing
in Orcon's obsequious welcome message that would warn you that telephone
calls might be used against you in any disputes that may arise. I seriously
doubt that any company would be successful in obtaining informed consent
from potential customers on that basis!
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:55:03 +1300, Phill Coxon <ph...@getresults.co.nz>
wrote:
Jochen Daum
I think there is always a great deal of emphasis on using the recorded call against someone, ie as a threat. The expectation is that one or both parties are cheating or bad.
However in most cases I think this assumption is not true. Its simply that there may be different expectations, assumptions and misunderstandings at work. If both parties had the call recordings easily available situations could be understood and resolved easier.
Kind regards,
Jochen
Mobile: 021 567 853
Phone: 09 630 3425
Email: j...@automatem.co.nz
Skype: jochendaum
Web: www.automatem.co.nz
On Nov 17, 2009 5:15 PM, <kal...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
A lot of companies say they record things "for training purposes", which
intimates a benign purpose. It is such widely used "new-speak" that it does
sound like a euphemism for wanting to know what happened, for their own
purposes. Can they use those conversations to justify invoicing a customer
for services in dispute?
You have a good point, I would be surprised if the act does allow them to
re-purpose the collected information, even at the suggestion of the person
it was collected from.
There is no doubt in my mind that the privacy act prevents any information
that is collected for training, derived from a recorded exchange, from
being used for any other purpose than training. Certainly there is nothing
in Orcon's obsequious welcome message that would warn you that telephone
calls might be used against you in any disputes that may arise. I seriously
doubt that any company would be successful in obtaining informed consent
from potential customers on that basis!
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:55:03 +1300, Phill Coxon <ph...@getresults.co.nz>
wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 13:16 +1300, Phill Coxon wrote: > >> A long time ago (8 years?) I had a law...
Karl
The recording itself may or may not be admissible...
...but a written transcription is usually quite legal evidence.
<arsecovering> This should in no way be taken as legal advice, but only as a common-sense opinion </arsecovering>
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 17/11/2009 at 1:16 p.m. Phill Coxon wrote:
>If that ever happens (it hasn't yet) I'll let my lawyer figure out
>whether the call can be used as evidence.
>At the very least being able to quote back exactly what was said in a
>past discussion "word for word" can be very useful.
kal...@ihug.co.nz
Most companies would apologise for any inconvenience and move on.
The way it appears to me, it IS a training issue, that is what is so ironic
about this.
I would go into a spin if my staff handled failed sales in an accustory
manner.
You must accept customer perceptions as valid, and then reconcile those
with expectations.
You have to be **sincere** at accepting the customers perceptions with a
view to improving your own systems.
There should be a clear escalation process with more senior people
progressively involved.
I my case I was passed back down and effectively given a directive to argue
it out with a technician.
This in itself is just appalling.
I have just been dealing with Hewlett Packard over a faulty laptop
computer, and they are brilliant at customer relations.
They explain their own process clearly so that expectations are clear,
they check with customers to make sure that these are understood, they log
things properly,
and they follow up their own processes with the customer.
I logged a fault with my laptop, I was directed to an excellent software
support team who always explained why they were asking a
question before they asked it, and then they passed me successfully on to
hardware support, and fed me into a hardware support process,
which in fact is contracted out. All of thins went on over several weeks
without missing a beat.
They warn you they use calls for training, and I would bet that that is
exactly what they do.
Kudos to Hewlett Packard.
duncanblair
I just got alerted to your post, sorry it has taken so long for me to
get to.
Have you managed to resolve this yet? If not I would be more than
happy to help you get this resolved.
I just need to know your username so I can follow up your history,
ensure everything is canceled and apply any appropriate credits to
make sure that you don't receive any further invoices.
I sincerely apologise for your difficulty in dealing with us. This is
not our usual style, and I will be pointing your experience out to our
senior customer experience people to ensure that any training and/or
process issues are identified and do not happen again in future.
Best regards,
Duncan Blair
Head of Brand and Communications
Orcon
On Nov 16, 11:49 am, Keith Allpress <kal...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> I placed an order for naked Broadband withOrconInternet on 3 October,
> following Saturday 10th October I phoned them. They told me that the
> order had been held up in accounts because of a credit check. Then I
> found out that they had my date of birth wrong, and they told me that
> this was why the order was delayed. Then when they read it back to me, I
> noticed that they had my address wrong. This was particularly annoying,
> because I had been careful to explain the address originally.
>
> Then I phoned Vodaphone/IHug and decided I liked their friendly
> I refused. I was assured that my order was cancelled, and I placed an
> order with Vodafone/Ihug for phone and internet.
>
> Vodfone provisioned the connection for me on the 22th October and I
> finally got on line at my new address, and it has been running happily
> ever since.Well you would think that would be the end of it, butOrcon
> keep sending me invoices. I have made dozens of phone calls to them to
> try to stop the invoices, but to no avail.
>
> They even went back to play the first phone call on the 10th of October,
> and then sent me an email saying that "I have listened to the phone
> call on the 10th that contradicts to what you are informing us of".
> Then it also goes on to say "If you still want to cancel the services
> with us, I can arrange this, please let me know at your earliest
> convenience".
> Hardly a day goes by without another reminder or invoice. I calledOrcon
> and told them yet again to stop invoicing me. I wrote back and told
> them to check the calls properly, look for a call just after the one
> they found.
>
> invoices fromOrcon, and I suggest that you review your records more
> matter, it has already taken up far too much of my time".
>
> I called Vodafone/ihug recently to ask if they were indeed supplying my
> service, and they said yes, they checked it for me, and that if anybody
> else was supplying it then Vodafone/ihug would not have been able to
> provision it. You cant supply it twice. Likewise nobody can install it
duncanblair
drop me an email directly - duncan dot blair (at) team dot orcon dot
net dot nz.
Thanks,
Duncan.