Cafe owners refuse to pay for the right to use music instore
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
to watch it until now
<http://www.3news.co.nz/TVShows/CampbellLive/Cafe-owners-refuse-to-pay-for-the-right-to-use-music-instore/tabid/817/articleID/112689/cat/84/Default.aspx>.
Or, for those who hate having to go through Flash, try entering the
following URL
<http://flash.mediaworks.co.nz/tv3/streams/_definst_/News/20090715/cl_music_150709_128K.flv>
into your favourite video player.
--
Lawrence "Firebug FTW!" D'Oliveiro
Fred
"Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in message
news:h4bo3o$aoh$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
So? They should pay up, or turn it off, or employ there own entertainment.
Nothing newsworthy about that.
~misfit~
> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in
> message news:h4bo3o$aoh$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>> I saw this mentioned as coming up on "Campbell Live" last week, but
>> forgot to watch it until now
>> <http://www.3news.co.nz/TVShows/CampbellLive/Cafe-owners-refuse-to-pay-for-the-right-to-use-music-instore/tabid/817/articleID/112689/cat/84/Default.aspx>.
>>
>> Or, for those who hate having to go through Flash, try entering the
>> following URL
>> <http://flash.mediaworks.co.nz/tv3/streams/_definst_/News/20090715/cl_music_150709_128K.flv>
>> into your favourite video player.
>
> entertainment. Nothing newsworthy about that.
Sooo... If I'm having a birthday party playing the CDs I've paid for do I
have to charge others to listen, or pay out myself to some greedy middleman
from the music industry? What if I charge for entry? What if it's "bring
your own", (essentially an entry fee)? Where does it end? Oh, the humanity!
--
Shaun.
"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll
be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchet, 'Jingo'.
Fred
"~misfit~" <sore_n...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
news:h4bqhs$eij$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Somewhere on teh intarwebs Fred wrote:
>> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in
>> message news:h4bo3o$aoh$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>>> I saw this mentioned as coming up on "Campbell Live" last week, but
>>> forgot to watch it until now
>>> <http://www.3news.co.nz/TVShows/CampbellLive/Cafe-owners-refuse-to-pay-for-the-right-to-use-music-instore/tabid/817/articleID/112689/cat/84/Default.aspx>.
>>>
>>> Or, for those who hate having to go through Flash, try entering the
>>> following URL
>>> <http://flash.mediaworks.co.nz/tv3/streams/_definst_/News/20090715/cl_music_150709_128K.flv>
>>> into your favourite video player.
>>
>> So? They should pay up, or turn it off, or employ there own
>> entertainment. Nothing newsworthy about that.
>
> Sooo... If I'm having a birthday party playing the CDs I've paid for do I
> have to charge others to listen, or pay out myself to some greedy
> middleman from the music industry? What if I charge for entry? What if
> it's "bring your own", (essentially an entry fee)? Where does it end? Oh,
> the humanity!
> --
billed. If you are a commercial opperator and playing music for the benefit
of your business or customers, then of course you will pay. e.g. many
hairdressers have music in their salons and must pay. The money does not go
to a middleman. It gets paid to recording artists. It's standard practise
worldwide. Pubs, concert halls etc pay an annual fee because musicians often
sing songs in them which others have written.
>
>
WorkHard
You should suss out APRA. And who runs it and controls it.
--
"Get off your lazy butt and do some work!"
Geopelia
"Mister Scooter" <mister....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d67j65h6mk1illqff...@4ax.com...
> On , , Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:14:47 +1200, Re: Cafe owners refuse to pay for
> the
> right to use music instore, "~misfit~" <sore_n...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>Somewhere on teh intarwebs Fred wrote:
>>> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in
>>> message news:h4bo3o$aoh$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>>>> I saw this mentioned as coming up on "Campbell Live" last week, but
>>>> forgot to watch it until now
>>>> <http://www.3news.co.nz/TVShows/CampbellLive/Cafe-owners-refuse-to-pay-for-the-right-to-use-music-instore/tabid/817/articleID/112689/cat/84/Default.aspx>.
>>>>
>>>> Or, for those who hate having to go through Flash, try entering the
>>>> following URL
>>>> <http://flash.mediaworks.co.nz/tv3/streams/_definst_/News/20090715/cl_music_150709_128K.flv>
>>>> into your favourite video player.
>>>
>>> So? They should pay up, or turn it off, or employ there own
>>> entertainment. Nothing newsworthy about that.
>>
>>Sooo... If I'm having a birthday party playing the CDs I've paid for do I
>>have to charge others to listen, or pay out myself to some greedy
>>middleman
>>from the music industry? What if I charge for entry? What if it's "bring
>>your own", (essentially an entry fee)? Where does it end? Oh, the
>>humanity!
>
>
A lot of places now have Coast as background music. The songs are so old
they are probably out of copyright or whatever by now. I even heard one from
the thirties the other day.
(How is White Christmas" doing? Is that free of copyright yet?)
Ted
> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in message
>
> news:h4bo3o$aoh$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>
> >I saw this mentioned as coming up on "Campbell Live" last week, but forgot
> > to watch it until now
>
> > Or, for those who hate having to go through Flash, try entering the
> > following URL
> > into your favourite video player.
>
> > --
> > Lawrence "Firebug FTW!" D'Oliveiro
>
> So? They should pay up, or turn it off,
> or employ there own entertainment.
It seems that they still need to pay even if they employ their own
entertainment. From the APRA faq:
Q. If I pay a band to play in my bar then they get royalties from
APRA. Aren't they getting paid twice?
A. Again remember that APRA act on behalf of the music writer. The
band may be playing "covers" which are not original songs and
therefore won't receive anything from APRA as only the writer of the
songs stands to earn any royalties. Even if the band is playing
original music then when you authorize the performance you are obliged
under the Copyright Act 1994 to obtain a licence, not the performers.
An APRA licence gives you this permission.
> Nothing newsworthy about that.
Richard
If radio is free, whats the licensing costs for a LPFM?
Fred
"WorkHard" <w...@workhard.org> wrote in message
news:xtGdnSm6ufWS5_TX...@giganews.com...
Fred
"Geopelia" <phil...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:h4c9nn$195$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
ChristianKnight
> Somewhere on teh intarwebs Fred wrote:
>
> > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in
> >> I saw this mentioned as coming up on "Campbell Live" last week, but
> >> forgot to watch it until now
>
> >> Or, for those who hate having to go through Flash, try entering the
> >> following URL
> >> into your favourite video player.
>
> > So? They should pay up, or turn it off, or employ there own
> > entertainment. Nothing newsworthy about that.
>
> Sooo... If I'm having a birthday party playing the CDs I've paid for do I
> have to charge others to listen, or pay out myself to some greedy middleman
> from the music industry? What if I charge for entry? What if it's "bring
> your own", (essentially an entry fee)? Where does it end? Oh, the humanity!
> --
> Shaun.
>
> "Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll
> be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchet, 'Jingo'.
If you have a birthday party every week with a sign outside your house
saying welcome to misfits birthday party you should pay if you play
local content espeacially if your open every day of the year v$150.00
dollars seems rewasonably to me.
They could I suppose play only foreign music?
Christ;'s love
liberty
>
> news:h4bo3o$aoh$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>
> >I saw this mentioned as coming up on "Campbell Live" last week, but forgot
> > to watch it until now
>
> > Or, for those who hate having to go through Flash, try entering the
> > following URL
> > into your favourite video player.
>
> > --
> > Lawrence "Firebug FTW!" D'Oliveiro
>
> So? They should pay up, or turn it off, or employ there own entertainment.
> Nothing newsworthy about that.
No the Radio stations have it all wrong. CD produces should have to
pay to have their
Music played. Music is only a commodity. No different to any other
merchandise of which
The merchant has to pay to advertise.
The current system where by a retail store has to pay to be forced to
listen to crap music often made from recording a skil saw. These
parasites get paid regardless of quality.
BR
wrote:
Some musicians are far too precious about their so-called "music".
A former head of one of the general licensers said that a CD is
nothing more than a business card you are lucky enough to be able to
sell. Most of the money performing artists make comes from just that -
performing, i.e. admission fees at live gigs. Show business is mostly
about bums on seats, and that is not likely to change in the
forseeable future, no matter how much money is extorted from small
businesses.
Bill.
Geopelia
"Fred" <r...@parachute.net.nz> wrote in message
news:h4d512$rvn$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I think it's Irving Berlin.
So we would have to find out who composed what and when they died. Very
complicated.
But the songs from the American Civil War would all be out of copyright now,
and probably all the Boer War and WWI songs.
But how about Lilli Marlene, and all Vera Lynn's songs? Their composers
might not have been dead for 50 years yet.
vitw
> If radio is free, whats the licensing costs for a LPFM?
Radio is *not* free. It's only for personal listening - small friends/
family groups. If you want radio in the workplace, or in a restaurant,
cafe etc, you also have to pay.
Peter
> Q. If I pay a band to play in my bar then they get royalties from
> APRA. Aren't they getting paid twice?
>
> A. Again remember that APRA act on behalf of the music writer. The
> band may be playing "covers" which are not original songs and
> therefore won't receive anything from APRA as only the writer of the
> songs stands to earn any royalties. Even if the band is playing
> original music then when you authorize the performance you are obliged
> under the Copyright Act 1994 to obtain a licence, not the performers.
> An APRA licence gives you this permission.
>
http://www.apra.co.nz/html/faq.php?id=5263#If+I+pay+a+band+to+play+in+my+bar+then+they+get+royalties+from+APRA.
++Aren%27t+they+getting+paid+twice%3F
If someone pays musicians to perform their own original work, ARPA still
wants their cut. To whom does ARPA pay the money (apart from themselves,
for this non-service)?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Wonder why? Don't the radio stations pay already? So why do the collection
societies get to collect twice?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> If someone pays musicians to perform their own original work, ARPA still
> wants their cut.
<http://techdirt.com/articles/20090625/0154055355.shtml>
<http://techdirt.com/articles/20090710/0340345512.shtml>
A _L_ P
money by demanding with menaces?
A L P
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> The money does not go to a middleman. It gets paid to recording artists.
How is it divided up among them?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in message
> news:h4bo3o$aoh$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>
>> --
>> Lawrence "Firebug FTW!" D'Oliveiro
Your newsreader is defective. It's supposed to automatically leave out lines
from the signature delimiter (dash-dash-space) onwards on followups. It
doesn't. Get a better newsreader, otherwise you're guilty of not being a
sociable netizen.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> They should pay up ...
"Should" is not how the market really works. While artists' creativity has
value, copies of recordings do not. And trying to assign value to them as a
business model is doomed to fail.
The only thing you can do with recordings is treat them as promotions for
the creativity of the artists. Don't try to make money from artificial
scarcities, make it from the _real_ scarcity.
Remember "payola", where the record labels were paying radio stations to
play their artists? No matter how many laws were passed against it, they
never quite managed to stamp it out. That's the market in action.
Max Burke
> Some musicians are far too precious about their so-called "music".
> A former head of one of the general licensers said that a CD is
> nothing more than a business card you are lucky enough to be able to
> sell. Most of the money performing artists make comes from just that -
> performing, i.e. admission fees at live gigs. Show business is mostly
> about bums on seats, and that is not likely to change in the
> forseeable future, no matter how much money is extorted from small
> businesses.
So, are you going to pay $160.00 per seat to see ACDC, plus travel and
accommodation expenses, if you're not in Auckland?
$160.00 to see a has been 3rd rate aus 'band.'
Apparently the tickets for ALL the Aussie shows sold out in 4 hours.
ROTFLOL
--
mlvb...@xxxxxxxx.nz
Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
Found Images
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
victor
The radio stations pay levies to APRA and PPNZ just like businesses do
for background music.
If you use music to enhance the atmosphere for your customers you are
obliged by copyright law to compensate the rights holder for the right
to play the content.
Its not about the number of copies, its about the playing.
Which would also be a better way to compensate the artists for all
internet playtime than per copy sales of downloads, and will be when the
network gets sophisticated enough to meter/sample playing time of each
track.
Fred
Interestingly, that's the reason musical societies so often do Gilbert and
Sullivan musicals these days. They are now out of copyright royalty
payments, but can still drag in an audience.
BR
wrote:
From APRA's website:
Q. Why don't you just tell me which writers and what music is in the
APRA repertoire and I will play the ones not on the list?
A. The APRA repertoire currently consists of some 2.5 million works.
To print out a copy of APRA's entire repertoire would take 27 hours
and 57,451 single A4 sides of paper.
Bloody hell! There are more efficient ways of disseminating
information these days than printing it all out on bits of paper! They
could maintain a downloadable searchable list of their clientele. It
all sounds like a scam to me.
Bill.
victor
The PPNZ levy is for the recording so they only collect once in this
case as only one copy is played. The APRA levy is for the use of the
composition, so they collect twice once from the radio stations income
from advertisers and once from the receiving business' income from their
customers. APRA didn't really enforce this much, but maybe they are
anticipating business moving to streaming content.
The collection societies are responsible for making the businesses pay
up, so if you continue to play their content without a license they will
keep billing you and then use the usual debt recovery methods I assume.
If you refuse to license your premises and continue to play their
content, they use the income from other businesses to bankroll civil
copyright infringement proceedings to recover their fee, plus costs and
damages.
Fred
"Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in message
> In message <h4brt3$eag$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Fred wrote:
>
>> The money does not go to a middleman. It gets paid to recording artists.
>
> How is it divided up among them?
>
determined by sampling radio programs. Hence Paul McCartney gets more than
John D Loudermilk.
Fred
"Peter" <nospa...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
news:h4defv$ia$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Only if copyrighted.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in message
> news:h4dlco$egu$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>
>> In message <h4brt3$eag$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Fred wrote:
>>
>>> The money does not go to a middleman. It gets paid to recording artists.
>>
>> How is it divided up among them?
>>
> Composers registered with apra are paid periodically according to a ratio
> determined by sampling radio programs.
But the cafe owner interviewed in the report was not playing the radio, but
CDs. So how does the formula work then?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
victor
The distribution is the same, it takes in sales charts and radio
playlists and is agreed by the membership pigopolists.
The apra collection society is a non profit organization, they are
paying out to publishers who take a cut for representing the composers,
or buy them out.
The license is to play anything from the apra catalogue, not a per song
royalty collection.
victor
So why did he assign the rights to the BPI ?
Geopelia
Try the Bab ballads, by Gilbert.
Richard
>> If someone pays musicians to perform their own original work, ARPA still
>> wants their cut.
>
> Only if copyrighted.
everything is copyrighted unless you specifically make things public domain.
Geopelia
> On , , Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:26:42 +1200, Re: Cafe owners refuse to pay for
> the
I always voted at my Party's call
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all
I thought so little, they rewarded me
By getting to the Beehive as a list MP.
G & S brought up to date :-)
George
> "Mister Scooter" <mister.scoo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0tpn65pqqr79f4fnh...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On , , Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:26:42 +1200, Re: Cafe owners refuse to pay for
> > the
>
> >>"Fred" <r...@parachute.net.nz> wrote in message
> >>news:h4e1b9$2db$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> >>>news:h4dcis$jir$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> >>>> "Fred" <r...@parachute.net.nz> wrote in message
> >>>>news:h4d512$rvn$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> >>>>>news:h4c9nn$195$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> >>>>>> "Mister Scooter" <mister.scoo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>news:d67j65h6mk1illqff...@4ax.com...
> >>>>>>> On , , Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:14:47 +1200, Re: Cafe owners refuse to
> >>>>>>> pay
> >>>>>>> for the
> >>>>>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>Somewhere on teh intarwebs Fred wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote in
> >>>>>>>>>> I saw this mentioned as coming up on "Campbell Live" last week,
> >>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>> forgot to watch it until now
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Or, for those who hate having to go through Flash, try entering
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> following URL
The Pirates of Pop perhaps