Times have changed at Apple Computer ...
Donald E. Hopkins
"About Kids and Computers: Most kids are fearless about computers
and think nothing of popping the top off of the Apple IIe and
rearranging the circuitry just to see what will happen. To discourage
these overzealous hackers, there are screw holes on the Apple IIe
cover so classroom computers can be bolted shut."
I am too disgusted to comment.
-Don
RAMD-SUM
now how can one expect young electrical engineers to have stories
to tell if they can't have the experience of moving the disk
controller card around with the power on and watching the tops
blow off the PROMs?
it's enough to make a hacker cry...
kevin%udccvax1@louie
burton.o...@xerox.arpa
the school administrators, and Apple **has** to keep their favor.
Phil Burton
Xerox Corp.
RAMD-SUM
`Course then again, any kid who's smart enough to know anything about
hardware ( I believe it possible to assume ) would have loosened a
screw or two to "see what makes [something] go." Sure, Apple wants
to be on everyone's good side ( there's money in that ), but let's
face it- if a kid wants to get in there, screws ain't gonna do it. I've
seen restraining plates with padlocks on Apples before, and it's not
a pretty sight. A better idea would be to teach the kids about what's
inside the computer and how to handle it- then restraints aren't neces-
sary. Since such locks and things aren't effective enough ( in the
long run - it slows down, but doesn't completely deter ), knowledge
has to be the key. Who knows- might even spark an interest in EE...
kevin%udccvax1@louie
Ps: Hacking: Learning through unauthorized access
Brint Cooper
school with enough legitimate curiosity to want to know how the Apple
works has probably been into other things already.
But I'd surely try to keep the 9-year-olds out of the box.
Brint
David Shlapak
Re:
>Ps: Hacking: Learning through unauthorized access
How 'bout:
Hacking: Destruction through unlearned access...
Why all this romanticism about "hacking?" The "old fashioned"
hacker (the one who didn't try to f**k up other people's TRW files
or break into Bank of America's computers, but merely wanted to figure
out what made a machine tick and what it could be made to do) were
typically (although by all means not exclusively) moderately immature,
single-minded, boring individuals (in other words, yes folks, "nerds");
"new-type" hackers are just plain felons. I don't understand what's wrong
with a school trying to protect its investments.
Besides, if nobody tried to keep the kids out of the guts of the
computer, they wouldn't be "hackers" by your definition, would they?
Cheers!
--- das
Peter da Silva
>
>
> I am too disgusted to comment.
> -Don
Why? They're not preventing you from hacking on your own machine, just
protecting school property.
--
Peter da Silva (the mad Australian werewolf)
UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter
MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076
Burton.o...@xerox.arpa
I dunno. My older child, a girl, had an Apple in her kindergarten
class. Those kids were active computerniks, the boys mostly. And I
know, since these boys are my daugther's playmates, that they are (1)
able to open up a system, and two, not yet ready to learn about the
difference between logic and memory.
Two observations: If a school wants kids to learn, they can buy cheap
kits from Intel and others. Second, all these discussions must be
q2ualified by the age of the child. Unfortunately, Apple doesn't have
different models for different grade levels.
Enough on this.
Phil Burton,
Xerox Corp.
eliot lear
Wrong.
A TRUE hacker (not to be confused with the press' definition) is someone that
knows how to find the "In"s and "Out"s of software or systems. If you have a
problem with a software program or with a system, you should be able to find
help when you find a TRUE hacker. An individual that breaks into systems or
steals passwords is NOT a hacker - (S)he is a THIEF or a VANDAL.
eliot lear
[Le...@RU-BLUE.arpa]
[{allegra,seismo,inhp4}!topaz!lear}]
-------
Shawn McKay
Peter da Silva
> inside the computer and how to handle it- then restraints aren't neces-
> sary. Since such locks and things aren't effective enough ( in the
They're still going to do weird things even if you tell them how to handle
it. I know I used to.
> Ps: Hacking: Learning through unauthorized access
Oh Lauren! Any comment on this?
--
Peter (Made in Australia) da Silva
Bob Bruck
> Wrong.
>
> A TRUE hacker (not to be confused with the press' definition) is someone that
Still wrong. The term "hacker" has been around for generations. My grand-
father used it to mean "someone who builds furniture with a hatchet". In the
early days of computers, "hatchets" were the only tools we had to work with,
and being dubbed a "hacker" was a sign of respect - it was inappropriate to
call yourself a hacker, it was an honor placed on you by others.
Well today, even though there are better "tools" available for the craftsmen
to use (read "software engineering"), there are still those that prefer to
use hatchets. They don't neccessarily know 'the "In"s and "Out"s of software
or systems' better... I just think of them as "back to nature" types.
Bob Bruck
NBI Inc. Boulder, Co.
(hao | allegra | ucbvax | ...)!nbires!bob
eliot lear
oneself beautiful). The argument of what a hacker is could go on
forever. That is not my point. My point is that the people I know as
hackers are NOT childish pointy heads but wise, experienced, intelligent
people.
--
[le...@topaz.rutgers.edu]
[{allegra,seismo,inhp4}!topaz!lear]
Glen Shires
If they press the wrong key, the machine will break.
--
^ ^ Glen Shires, Intel, Santa Clara, Ca.
O O Usenet: {ucbvax!amd,pur-ee,hplabs}!intelca!glen
> ARPA: "amd!intelca!glen"@BERKELEY
\-/ --- stay mellow
Robert Skinner
Why is it that saying a piece of is "hacked" imply that it's bad? But
calling someone a "hacker" is good? I always felt that a hacker
produced hacked-up code. Like carving with a hatchet rather than good
wood working tools. I prefer not to be called a hacker, even
"computer nerd" is better. I like to think that I'm a programmer,
even though I do occasionally hack at things.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.. man then went on to prove that black was white,
and was promptly killed at the next zebra crossing.
Name: Robert Skinner
Snail: Saber Technology, 2381 Bering Drive, San Jose, California 95131
AT&T: (408) 945-0518, or 945-9600 (mesg. only)
UUCP: ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!saber!skinner
...{amd,ihnp4,ittvax}!saber!skinner
Richard L. Klappal
>steals passwords is NOT a hacker - (S)he is a THIEF or a VANDAL.
>
.. and should have their fingers guillotined at the elbow!!
( .. :-) INTENTIONALLY OMITTED )
rlk
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX
>A TRUE hacker (not to be confused with the press' definition) is someone that
>knows how to find the "In"s and "Out"s of software or systems. If you have a
>problem with a software program or with a system, you should be able to find
>help when you find a TRUE hacker. An individual that breaks into systems or
>steals passwords is NOT a hacker - (S)he is a THIEF or a VANDAL.
Just wait until some legislator's son gets busted for password hacking,
and you'll se unprotected computer systems redefined as an ATTRACTIVE
NUSIANCE. Ask a swimming pool owner what that means.
--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf CIS:70715,131
Omen Technology Inc 17505-V NW Sauvie Island Road Portland OR 97231
Voice: 503-621-3406 Modem: 503-621-3746 (Hit CR's for speed detect)
omen Any ACU 1200 1-503-621-3746 se:--se: link ord: Giznoid in:--in: uucp
Home of Professional-YAM, the most powerful COMM program for the IBM PC
Bjorn Benson
>
>A TRUE hacker (not to be confused with the press' definition) is someone ...
> ...[and then shows how hackers are nice people]...
Wrong again. The press sets the definitions these days (not that it should,
it just does.) Remember what "pot" and "stoned" mean? They mean a
cooking implement and getting killed by having small hard objects thrown
at you. However if I said, "my brother/sister got stoned" you think
drugs, right?
Point made, Bjorn Benson
Indra Laksono
Aha. But language is never dead, it has to evolve to encompass new
concepts. If enough people want something to mean something that it
was not supposed to, previously, mean, :-) then,so be it.
..{allegra cornell decvax ihnp4 linus utzoo}!utcsri!utai!indra
Tim Smith
What's wrong with protecting **classroom** computers?
--
Tim Smith
ihnp4!{cithep,wlbr!callan}!tim
Peter da Silva
> it just does.) Remember what "pot" and "stoned" mean? They mean a
> cooking implement and getting killed by having small hard objects thrown
> at you. However if I said, "my brother/sister got stoned" you think
> drugs, right?
Because I (and probably most of us) am peripherally involved in the subculture
involved. In that subculture pot means marijuana and stoned refers to intoxi-
cation. There are no other meanings I know of within that subculture. Now then,
what does "hacker" mean in this subculture? Depends who you talk to, right? It's
not hard & fast like "stoned".
Point made.
Bjorn Benson
>> Wrong again. The press sets the definitions these days (not that it should,
>
> what does "hacker" mean in this subculture? Depends who you talk to, right?
> It's not hard & fast like "stoned".
>
> Point made.
Point conceeded, but wrong point. The point is that with the mass market press
using "hacker" as the definition of someone who uses his/her computer skills
to break into or break down a computer, that definition is the accepted one.
There are always articles about "Hackers break into DODs computer, Read top
secret documents", etc. Furthermore, there are a number of books out like:
"Out of the Inner Circle: Confessions of a Hacker". These definitions
will override anything that we would like to use.
"Stoned" and "Pot" came into their common definitions because the press picked
up on them and published them widely. Yes, I agree that they were first used
by a certain sub-culture, just as "hacker" is, and that perhaps in that
subculture the definition is different. However in the mass market, public
eye, a "hacker" is defined to be a low down criminal.
Peter da Silva
> secret documents", etc. Furthermore, there are a number of books out like:
> "Out of the Inner Circle: Confessions of a Hacker". These definitions
> will override anything that we would like to use.
I see, in much the same way that the British press made "yankee" a term of
approbium around the time of the American Rebellion. Well, with that sort of
precedent I guess we better just give up & let the high-school modem-freakers
have the term.