[NEONIXIE-L] IN-18 nixies not new from Ebay
figureloop
Hi:
I recently bought some IN-18 from sellers ranutek and bsa_79 on Ebay. I suspect that these tubes are not new despite being listed as such in the item title.
If you have any IN-18, especially if you have some that you think are still new, or purchased as new, examine the pink stack of insulating spacer washers at the top and bottom which separate the digit cathodes.
When a tube has operated for some time, these become blackened on the side facing the cathodes. However, they remain pink on the side facing the mica support disk.
Another place to look is on the micas. There may be blackening spots apparent on the micas at top and bottom.
Finally, there is a third location which evidences use. That is on the side of the glass envelope on the left and right where there is a hole in the anode screen/rear plate. Blackening of the glass may be present.
In the two different batches of tubes I received recently, there are widely varying degrees of blackening on the various locations described above, ranging from barely blackened on just the pink washers, to heavily blackened in all three locations. Three tubes from one batch were totally unblackened and appear completely new.
So far, a heavily blackened tube that I tested illuminates all digits Ok. The characteristic is a bit different than the newer looking tubes. For the "8" digit, a used-looking tube has a voltage drop of 137VDC at 3.5mA, where a new looking tube has about 129VDC at 3.5mA.
I am inclined to give a negative feedback for these sellers, but before I do so I'd like some feedback from this forum.
One thing I am not sure if, of course, is if the sellers really understood the tube conditions.
Have there been indications of IN-18s being not new before from Ebay sources which listed them as "new?"
Thanks for comments.
Tom Nolan
[edited by A.J. - please trim quoted material]
figureloop wrote:
> I recently bought some IN-18 from sellers ranutek and bsa_79 on Ebay.
> I suspect that these tubes are not new despite being listed as such in
> the item title.
>
> If you have any IN-18, especially if you have some that you think are
> still new, or purchased as new, examine the pink stack of insulating
> spacer washers at the top and bottom which separate the digit cathodes.
>
> When a tube has operated for some time, these become blackened on the
> side facing the cathodes. However, they remain pink on the side facing
> the mica support disk.
<snip>
How long does it take for the change in colour to occur? I had an email
conversation with one seller who said that due to negative feedback he
got from selling a dud that he now tests every tube as they are packed.
Would that test be enough to change the colour?
Tom
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- New Photos 2
- New Files 1
figureloop
--- In NEONIXIE-L@yahoogroups.com, Tom Nolan <Thomas.Nolan@...> wrote:
>
> [edited by A.J. - please trim quoted material]
> figureloop wrote:
> > I recently bought some IN-18 from sellers ranutek and bsa_79 on Ebay.
> > I suspect that these tubes are not new despite being listed as such in
> > the item title.
> >
> > If you have any IN-18, especially if you have some that you think are
> > still new, or purchased as new, examine the pink stack of insulating
> > spacer washers at the top and bottom which separate the digit cathodes.
> >
> > When a tube has operated for some time, these become blackened on the
> > side facing the cathodes. However, they remain pink on the side facing
> > the mica support disk.
> <snip>
>
> How long does it take for the change in colour to occur? I had an email
> conversation with one seller who said that due to negative feedback he
> got from selling a dud that he now tests every tube as they are packed.
> Would that test be enough to change the colour?
>
> Tom
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
No, I don't think so. The sensitivity of the three regions to blackening is, I believe, in the order in which I described them. Ie., the pink spacer washers are the most sensitive to blackening, and so should change color with hours on the tube less than that required to show blackening on the mica, and then the glass envelope, in that order.
I have one tube which I decided to test just this hypothesis on last night which I ran for perhaps an hour total on several cathodes near the middle of the stack. This particular tube has a bit of blackening on the upper washer stack, almost undetectable blackening on the lower stack, and no visible blackening of the mica or envelope.
I chose this one rather than one of the three pristine ones just because I figured it would be almost as sensitive as a perfectly clean one, without risking one of my three perfect ones.
There was no visible blackening increase or appearance of new blackening in this tube after a burn time of about 1 hour. Since testing only takes a few minutes, I cannot accept the idea that a few minutes is enough to cause any blackening.
Thus, for blackening to occur on the mica and especially the glass envelope, I think this is only possible with a significant number of hours of operation.
The other indication, as I had mentioned, of significant usage was the change in VI characteristics. The most heavily used tubes by appearance also have the highest voltage drops for a given test current.
A new looking tube runs at a current of 4mA and drops 129V. Whereas a heavily used looking tube at the same test current drops 139V. This proportion of change in characteristic, from my minimal experience running a set of ZM1210 in a clock for over 5 years, is consistent with a rather long period of use representing a significant fraction of the tube's expected lifetime.
m.adamski
[edited by A.J. - please trim quoted material]
--- In NEONIXIE-L@yahoogroups.com, "figureloop" <crobc@...> wrote:
<snip>
> Have there been indications of IN-18s being not new before from Ebay
> sources which listed them as "new?"
I recently bought and built my first IN-18 clock kit. After 60 hours of operation I already can see some blackening on (and only on) the bottom pink spacers. Interestingly some tubes have much more of it than the others. Two of the six tubes don't show any blackening at all.
I quickly measured real values of the anode resistors and there is no correlation with the level of blackening.
I have to admit that I did not examine the tubes very carefully at the beginning. But I had my eye for any imperfections and don't remember seeing any.
Jan Wuesten
To: NEONIXIE-L@yahoogroups.com
From: "m.adamski" <mr.adamski@gmail.com>
Date sent: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:12:34 -0000
Subject: [NEONIXIE-L] Re: IN-18 nixies not new from Ebay
Send reply to: NEONIXIE-L@yahoogroups.com
> [edited by A.J. - please trim quoted material]
> --- In NEONIXIE-L@yahoogroups.com, "figureloop" <crobc@...> wrote:
> <snip>
> > Have there been indications of IN-18s being not new before from Ebay
> > sources which listed them as "new?"
>
>
> I recently bought and built my first IN-18 clock kit. After 60 hours of operation I already can see some blackening on (and only on) the bottom pink spacers. Interestingly some tubes have much more of it than the others. Two of the six tubes don't show any blackening at all.
> I quickly measured real values of the anode resistors and there is no correlation with the level of blackening.
> I have to admit that I did not examine the tubes very carefully at the beginning. But I had my eye for any imperfections and don't remember seeing any.
>
Hello,
I have tubes here I had bought at a time when nobody considered them
valuable which came in factory sealed boxes so the chance somebody
messed with the seals to let them appear new is low.
Those tubes also have this blackening and I strongly assume it´s part
of the factory´s forming process so no secure indicator if a tube is
new or not.
Jan
Mit freundlichen Gruessen---best regards----cordialement
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figureloop
--- In NEONIXIE-L@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Wuesten" <fjz@...> wrote:
>
> To: NEONIXIE-L@yahoogroups.com
> From: "m.adamski" <mr.adamski@...>
> Date sent: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:12:34 -0000
> Subject: [NEONIXIE-L] Re: IN-18 nixies not new from Ebay
> Send reply to: NEONIXIE-L@yahoogroups.com
>
> > [edited by A.J. - please trim quoted material]
> > --- In NEONIXIE-L@yahoogroups.com, "figureloop" <crobc@> wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > Have there been indications of IN-18s being not new before from Ebay
> > > sources which listed them as "new?"
> >
> >
> > I recently bought and built my first IN-18 clock kit. After 60 hours of operation I already can see some blackening on (and only on) the bottom pink spacers. Interestingly some tubes have much more of it than the others. Two of the six tubes don't show any blackening at all.
> > I quickly measured real values of the anode resistors and there is no correlation with the level of blackening.
> > I have to admit that I did not examine the tubes very carefully at the beginning. But I had my eye for any imperfections and don't remember seeing any.
> >
>
> Hello,
>
> I have tubes here I had bought at a time when nobody considered them
> valuable which came in factory sealed boxes so the chance somebody
> messed with the seals to let them appear new is low.
> Those tubes also have this blackening and I strongly assume it´s part
> of the factory´s forming process so no secure indicator if a tube is
> new or not.
>
> Jan
My sense is that the pink spacers are the most sensitive to sputtering, and get visible deposits within a short time.
However, the blackening on the glass envelope I still suspect indicates more use than just factory burn-in.
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DanielK
[edited by A.J. - please trim quoted material]
--- In NEONI...@yahoogroups.com, "figureloop" <crobc@...> wrote:
> I recently bought some IN-18 from sellers ranutek and bsa_79 on Ebay. I suspect that these tubes are not new despite being listed as such in the item title.
<snip>
> Have there been indications of IN-18s being not new before from Ebay sources which listed them as "new?"
>
---
Can everyone who has had a questionable purchase of tubes on ebay compile a list of suspicious dealers to avoid? These tubes are getting very expensive and we don't want to get further ripped off. Is anyone interested in a group purchase to get a better price on IN-18 tubes. They seem to be going for an average price of $40.00 per tube. There appear to be a number of sellers on ebay from Russia and I have a feeling there remains a substantial supply there.
DBK
figureloop
--- In NEONI...@yahoogroups.com, "DanielK" <kuriloff@...> wrote:
>
> [edited by A.J. - please trim quoted material]
> --- In NEONI...@yahoogroups.com, "figureloop" <crobc@> wrote:
> > I recently bought some IN-18 from sellers ranutek and bsa_79 on Ebay. I suspect that these tubes are not new despite being listed as such in the item title.
> <snip>
> > Have there been indications of IN-18s being not new before from Ebay sources which listed them as "new?"
> >
> ---
>
> Can everyone who has had a questionable purchase of tubes on ebay compile a list of suspicious dealers to avoid? These tubes are getting very expensive and we don't want to get further ripped off. Is anyone interested in a group purchase to get a better price on IN-18 tubes. They seem to be going for an average price of $40.00 per tube. There appear to be a number of sellers on ebay from Russia and I have a feeling there remains a substantial supply there.
> DBK
I bought two batches, one from bsa_79 and one from ranutek. Unfortunately, I mixed them up so I can't say for sure which one supplied mostly new-looking tubes, vs. used looking tubes.
There is still some question about what degree of darkening constitutes normal burn-in vs. being used. I still maintain the view that darkening of the glass sides where there are rectangular holes in the anode, results from use.
I am surprised that this post of photos didn't result in any discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEONIXIE-L/photos/album/198068361/pic/list
- New Photos 5
- New Links 1
marta_kson
Are there any differences on the edges of the numerals on clear and slightly darkened tubes? The pictures posted has not enough resolution to see if the edges looks newly cut or "corroded" from use.
figureloop
--- In NEONI...@yahoogroups.com, "marta_kson" <marta_kson@...> wrote:
>
> Are there any differences on the edges of the numerals on clear and slightly darkened tubes? The pictures posted has not enough resolution to see if the edges looks newly cut or "corroded" from use.
>
Direct inspection of the tubes doesn't reveal any peculiarities about the electrode edges. Since only micro, or even likely nanograms of material could produce darkening of the glass, I doubt eating away at the electrodes would be perceptible.
