STIX fonts for clients
da...@alzt.tau.ac.il
stable version is expected soon. I belong to the academic community
that seeks the use of the native Firefox MathML support. There is a
long debate between people with the same interest as mine and the
developers of the Firefox browser, about delivering or not the STIX
fonts to clients using MathML as one package together with the
browser's download. References for this debate can be found in:
1. The bug report 295193 ( https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=295193
).
2. The bug report 415223 ( https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=415223
).
3. In the present list ( http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.tech.mathml/browse_thread/thread/27000c43ddc95c12
).
My argument is that there is a simple solution, which can satisfy both
sides, and bring benefit to the spread of MathML.
I am trying to summarize the view for delivering the STIX fonts
together with the browser's download:
The academic clients are not developers. They need the computer as a
mean of helping them to meet the challenges of research and teaching.
They need something simple that works, without following instructions
that they don't understand, no matter how clear they are. A simple
example is the use of MathML by Firefox2. The Window's installer of
the fonts for MathML was straight-forward even for most of the
academic clients. For Mac the instructions needed the help of a
computer expert, and even he was warned about avoiding a bug that was
explained elsewhere. For Linux it was catastrophic, even an expert
could not always help. On top a person with the root password should
also be called. If Windows is the dominant platform, is it worth
bothering with the others?
What was the result? Only Window's clients (and they are not too many
in the academic community) could benefit. Mac and Linux clients had to
give up. On the other hand the main purpose of MathML is to be used
for mathematical expressions, and not too many people are using them,
with the exception of some academic staff.
Now let's see what are the opposing arguments of the browser's
developers, and they make sense:
If the browser delivers also the necessary fonts, the downloading time
of the browser will increase substantially, discouraging that way
people of using the Firefox browser. This argument is probably the
most easy to overcome, by presenting to the users the choice of adding
the fonts during the downloading of the browser. Furthermore the space
of all the STIX fonts (not zipped) take is less than 1.2 MB , which is
less than 16% of the space needed for downloading the browser today
(7.5 MB). So far some of the browser's developers accept this
solution.
The next argument is much heavier, but in my opinion there is a work-
around. The argument says that downloading the fonts is not enough,
one have to install them. The installation procedure differs from
platform to platform and it is a very heavy task to be done by a
browser. I agree, but why install the fonts in the system? Just put
them somewhere in a directory of the browser's software. They don't
have to be installed in the system. The browser should take care to
look for these fonts in the appropriate directory, when a <math ..>
element is encountered, instead of looking among the installed fonts
in the system (as for now). If a developer wants to use the STIX fonts
for another than math purpose, he has to install them in the system
(in addition to the same - existing in the browser).
As an example of this work-around, the MathPlayer plug-in of Design
Science for Internet Explorer uses math fonts, which are included in
the plug-in itself. It does not require installing the fonts.
Hope that the just proposed solution can be easily implemented, and
we'll witness soon Firefox3 free of installing separately the STIX
fonts.
Paul Topping
correct a misconception. While our MathPlayer plugin for Internet
Explorer does install its own fonts, it installs them into Windows
rather than keeping them private. In other words, its installer includes
a font installer. The same fonts are also installed with our MathType
product on both Mac and Windows and are installed into the system and
are available to all applications running on the machine.
I can say from experience that installing fonts on both Mac and Windows
is not trivial. There are a number of issues on both platforms. I can't
say anything about Linux, etc. except to say that I've heard it is
difficult there also. The OS vendors do not make it easy. They seem to
brush a number of issues under the rug:
- They allow fonts to be installed in multiple directories but leave it
to developers to figure out what that means. If fonts with the same
names are in more than one, which takes precedence? If your installer
wants to delete old versions of a font and replace it with a new one,
how does it find all the versions?
- There is not much attention to versions in fonts. As with any
software, fonts are improved as time goes by. The various fonts
installers do contains versions but some contain more than one, so which
takes precedence. The answer is usually none of them. Installers
routinely ignore versions. OS documentation does not make it clear what
is supposed to happen.
Just thought you might want to know.
Paul Topping
Design Science, Inc.
www.dessci.com
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> dev-tech-mathml mailing list
> dev-tec...@lists.mozilla.org
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Justu...@piater.name
Another MathML power user speaking here. If MathML is to gain any
acceptance, we must make tear down any and all barriers to using it.
da...@alzt.tau.ac.il wrote on Sat, 24 May 2008 04:33:17 -0700 (PDT):
> by presenting to the users the choice of adding the fonts during the
> downloading of the browser.
This seems a very good idea to me. During the user-level firefox
installation procedure, let the user choose:
- download and install the STIX fonts locally, into the user's disk
space (no-hassle MathML support)
- not worry about the STIX fonts (proper MathML support if STIX fonts
are installed system wide, beforehand or later; crippled MathML
support if not)
> that downloading the fonts is not enough, one have to install
> them. The installation procedure differs from platform to platform
> and it is a very heavy task
[OT] Is this really still generally the case? On my Debian system, I
believe all I had to do was extract the font archive into one of the
system font directories (/usr/local/share/fonts/), and without further
ado the font was found by applications such as OOo.
That said, this is not something a user-level firefox install should
do, as it is a system-level task and requires root privileges. Of
course, distributions can make their firefox packages depend on or
recommend the STIX fonts.
Justus
da...@alzt.tau.ac.il
>
> [mailto:dev-tech-mathml-
>
> > boun...@lists.mozilla.org] On Behalf Of da...@alzt.tau.ac.il
> > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 4:33 AM
> >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-tech-mathml
Thanks Paul Toppings for the valuable information. Your experience
indeed backs up the claim of the Firefox browser developers of the
difficulty to arrange installers for different platforms.
My proposition just to put the STIX fonts in a directory of Firefox to
be used by the browser for MathML purpose only does not cause any
problem for precedence. That way the OS does not know of their
existence.
If a developer wants to use the same fonts for a different purpose,
he'll have just to install them in the system. An additional 1MB on a
hard disk of 100GB is negligible. It will be no interference between
the fonts in Firefox and the system, and no problem of precedence will
arise.
Paul Topping
Paul
William F Hammond
Hi Paul,
You write in dev-tec...@lists.mozilla.org:
> Yes, I understand what you propose. However, this may create yet
> another font mess. It has long (~10 years) that the STIX fonts will
> become the math fonts that all will use. I think it would be far
> better for the FF/Mozilla community to write a proper font installer
> (it can't be that hard, we did it) and place pressure on the OS makers
> to clean house with respect to the difficulty of doing so. Perhaps
> they can even help with the project.
However it is done, it is important for everybody here that mathml
handling be available everywhere, i.e., on all browsers and on all
platforms.
Part of the problem is that there are those who don't yet understand
that they will benefit from having this capability. There are even
math professors who have yet to see a web page with MathML.
Another aspect of this, generally new compared with 1998, is that
there are users who want the capability but do not have system-level
installation permissions to bring it about without involving a system
manager.
For this reason it is important that browsers work properly with
mathml out-of-the-box.
In particular, it would be enormously helpful if mathplayer was
bundled by MS with IE. Anything you can do to push that would help.
Also those of us who know folk at MS could write to them.
-- Bill
Paul Topping
demands from other s/w companies which, if you think about it, makes
sense. It is customers they listen to, if anybody.
Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William F Hammond [mailto:ham...@csc.albany.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:13 AM
> To: Paul Topping
> Cc: dev-tec...@lists.mozilla.org
> Subject: Re: STIX fonts for clients
>
>
da...@alzt.tau.ac.il
Mozilla Firefox is the only browser with good native MathML support.
Version 3 is going to be released soon and one have to solve in no
time the problem of delivering the STIX fonts. I am suggesting a
solution, which is simple and quick. Opera is moving also in this
direction, but it is a way behind, which gives a lot of time to find a
more complicated and general solution.
Cheers, Samy
> > dev-tech-mat...@lists.mozilla.org
> >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-tech-mathml
da...@alzt.tau.ac.il
Hi Bill,
We are on the same side in this debate. I am trying to convey to the
Firefox team a simple solution for providing the clients with the STIX
fonts. Unfortunately nobody there made a remark. Let's hope, Samy
William F Hammond
> Hi Bill,
>
> We are on the same side in this debate. I am trying to convey to the
> Firefox team a simple solution for providing the clients with the STIX
> fonts. Unfortunately nobody there made a remark. Let's hope, Samy
Samy --
Yes, we're absolutely on the same side. I just don't have a deep
enough understanding of font handling to know really what
Firefox should do to make things work out-of-the-box for all users.
I see _any_ user step beyond acquiring Firefox as problematic at this
stage.
-- Bill
Paul Topping
Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> dev-tech-mathml-bounces+pault=dessc...@lists.mozilla.org
> [mailto:dev-tech-mathml-bounces+pault=dessc...@lists.mozilla
William F Hammond
> So Mozilla Firefox is planning on doing a sub-standard job of
> installing fonts based on the idea that it is the only game in town
> as far as MathML support is concerned?
I don't think that was said. Wasn't the phrase "only browser with
_native_ MathML support"?
> Bad idea, I think. They should bite the bullet and do the job right.
I may be lost, but is the intention here to argue against a browser
bundling math fonts for its own use rather than installing them for
overall platform use? Or what?
(For platform installation unless a browser is re-distributed by the
platform vendor there are "courtesy" issues [who has the right to
install what and in which location] that strike me as overwhelmingly
complicated with too many opportunities for breakage. Up until now
with downloaded Mozillas the buck has been passed to the user. We
know it is not working well for most users.)
-- Bill
Paul Topping
> From:
> dev-tech-mathml-bounces+pault=dessc...@lists.mozilla.org
> [mailto:dev-tech-mathml-bounces+pault=dessc...@lists.mozilla
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 1:17 PM
> To: dev-tec...@lists.mozilla.org
> Subject: Re: STIX fonts for clients
>
>
> > So Mozilla Firefox is planning on doing a sub-standard job of
> > installing fonts based on the idea that it is the only game in town
> > as far as MathML support is concerned?
>
> I don't think that was said. Wasn't the phrase "only browser with
> _native_ MathML support"?
I guess I was reading between the lines. Is there another interpretation
of "native" in this context?
> > Bad idea, I think. They should bite the bullet and do the job right.
>
> I may be lost, but is the intention here to argue against a browser
> bundling math fonts for its own use rather than installing them for
> overall platform use? Or what?
Yes. Installing them for its own use balkanizes the user's machine. So,
what if STIX comes out with a new version and the user installs it using
the Windows Fonts control panel, for example? Firefox users will not see
the benefit. There are a number of other scenarios that are equally
confusing to the user. While the OS does support fonts that are private
to the application, I believe this is mostly intended for fonts that are
used in the user interface of the application and that make no sense to
be shared among all apps. Regardless, users are accustomed to installing
fonts in the Windows control panel and similarly on Mac. As far as I can
see, the only reason it is being suggested to make the STIX fonts
private to FF is to simply avoid the work of making a proper font
installation.
> (For platform installation unless a browser is re-distributed by the
> platform vendor there are "courtesy" issues [who has the right to
> install what and in which location] that strike me as overwhelmingly
> complicated with too many opportunities for breakage. Up until now
> with downloaded Mozillas the buck has been passed to the user. We
> know it is not working well for most users.)
>
> -- Bill
>
da...@alzt.tau.ac.il
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > dev-tech-mathml-bounces+pault=dessci....@lists.mozilla.org
> > [mailto:dev-tech-mathml-bounces+pault=dessci....@lists.mozilla
> >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-tech-mathml
Hi Paul,
You are misinterpreting two points of my proposition:
1. A native support means not proprietary. MathPlayer is proprietary.
What will happen if one day Design Science will stop its support?
I am a developer of a web-hosted course-ware of math for university
students. For that purpose I am using SVG as well as MathML. The
course-ware was developed for MS IE and used the SVG plugin ASV: Adobe
SVG Viewer. Unfortunately for me Adobe bought Macromedia, and
announced the discontinuation of its support for ASV, probably in
order to focus on Flash (a Macromerdia's product). Fortunally for me
Firefox developed a strong NATIVE support for SVG and MathML and I had
to convert my course-ware to Firefox instead of IE. Please read about
the WWW Consortium, and see why the NATIVE support is much better for
the consumer.
2. My proposition does not balkanize the user's machine, and does not
make the STIX fonts private to FF. If Stix upgrades its fonts, as
usual Firefox will ask the users using MathML to upgrade the version
of Firefox. You know that all browsers (including MS IE) are upgrading
from time to time.
A user of any OS can upgrade the STIX fonts installed in his machine,
independently of the platform and browser used.
Paul Topping
And, as long as the fonts needed to support MathML are not installed with every copy of FF, you still don't have out-of-the-box support for MathML in Firefox. What difference does it make to the student that can't see equations in their browser if the remedy is to install MathML fonts for FF or MathPlayer for IE?
I stand by my comment about installing the STIX fonts privately in FF. It still sounds to me that that is exactly what is being proposed. It sounds like your point is that installing them privately into FF does not stop the user installing a second set (perhaps a different version) publicly. It does not stop other applications from installing them privately either, creating perhaps a third or fourth set on the user's machine.
Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dev-tech-mathml-bounces+pault=dessc...@lists.mozilla.org
> [mailto:dev-tech-mathml-bounces+pault=dessc...@lists.mozilla.org] On
> Behalf Of da...@alzt.tau.ac.il
da...@alzt.tau.ac.il
Although we did not get any response from the developers of the
Firefox3 browser, I am pleased by the solution implemented. The
downloading of the mathml fonts is much easier now, than in the case
of Firefox2.
Cheers, Samy
> > dev-tech-mat...@lists.mozilla.org
> >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-tech-mathml