Dr. Carlo von Larry King Show ausgeladen
30.05.2008
Dr. George Carlo wurde am Tag der Sendung darüber
informiert, dass er für die Larry King Live Show "Are
cell phones dangerous?", die am 27. Mai 2008
ausgestrahlt wurde, durch einen Vertreter der American Cancer
Society ersetzt wird. (CNN: Are cell phones dangerous? Johnnie
Cochran's widow, Dale, and his neurosurgeon Dr. Keith Black discuss
how cell phones may have led to his death.)
Dieser
Programmwechsel wurde von CNN als Bestrebung präsentiert, ein
„Gleichgewicht“ zum Fall von Johnnie Cochrans Hirntumor
herzustellen. Die American Cancer Society unterstützt
öffentlich die Sichtweise der Mobilfunkindustrie, dass es
keinen Zusammenhang zwischen Mobiltelefonen und Hirntumor gebe. Dr.
George Carlo teilt diese Ansicht nicht.
Die Produzenten
der Larry King Live Show wünschten darauf von Dr. Carlo ein
schriftliches Statement, das in der Sendung vorgelesen werden
sollte. Dieses Statement ist hier untenstehend angefügt:
Statement von Dr. George Carlo
Statement
von Dr. George Carlo [25 KB]
Vorsitzender des Science
and Public Policy Institute
Deutsche Übersetzung:
Evi Gaigg, Diagnose-Funk
- Vor zwei Jahren wurde ich von
der Cochran Law Firm (der Kanzlei des 2005 an den Folgen eines
Hirntumors verstorbenen Rechtsanwaltes Johnnie Cochran, Anm. der
Übersetzerin) gebeten, die Akte im Zusammenhang mit dem
Hirntumor von Johnnie Cochran durchzusehen. Basierend auf dieser
Durchsicht, bleibe ich bei meiner fachlichen Meinung, dass dieser
Tumor durch die Benutzung eines Mobiltelefons verursacht worden
ist.
- Schlüsselargumente, die zu dieser
Schlussfolgerung führten:
Es gibt mehr als vierzig
epidemiologische Studien an Menschen, die mehr als dreihundert
Fälle statistisch signifikanter Zunahmen von Tumorrisiken
ergaben; es gibt sechs solcher Fälle, die ein definitives
Fehlen solcher Risiken zeigen.
• Systematische
Schwächen in den veröffentlichten Studien, obwohl sie
eine 200-500 prozentige Zunahme eines Risikos zeigen, lassen darauf
schliessen, dass bei diesen das wahre Hirntumorrisiko durch
Mobiltelefone unterschätzt wurde.
• Die Forschung
hat pathologische Mechanismen aufgezeigt, durch die infolge der
Mobilfunkstrahlung Tumore verursacht werden, also unterstützt
die biologische Wahrscheinlichkeit die statistischen
Zusammenhänge.
• Klinische Daten von Menschen, die
unter anderen, mit elektromagnetischer Strahlung im Zusammenhang
stehenden Zuständen leiden, angefangen von
Elektrohypersensitivität bis zu Autismus, lassen auf weitere
Beweise pathologischer Mechanismen im Zusammenhang mit
Mobiltelefongebrauch schliessen.
Anklicken um Video zu starten
gekürztes Video von CNN: Are cell phones dangerous? 12:20 Johnnie Cochran's widow, Dale, and his neurosurgeon Dr. Keith Black discuss how cell phones may have led to his death.
Vollständiges Video
Ein vollständiges Video zur Sendung bietet die Informationsplattform NEXT-UP an:
Transcript aus der Larry King Live Show
Dale Cochran's First Interview
Since the Death of Her
Husband Johnnie;
Is There a Link Between Cell Phones and
Cancer?
Aired May 27, 2008 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS
A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, cell
phones and cancer -- is there a link?
Johnnie Cochran's widow
speaks publicly for the first time since her husband's death. A
brain tumor killed the famed attorney and father of three at the
age of 67.
Were cell phones to blame?
It's a
multi-billion dollar industry and a mounting controversy. Two
hundred and fifty-five million users want to know, what are the
risks?
Are they paying a price or panicking for no good
reason?
Experts on both sides of the issue are here and it's
next. And it's only on LARRY KING LIVE.
It is a great
pleasure to welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Dale Cochran, the widow of
the famed attorney, the late Johnnie Cochran.
Also with us
is Dr. Keith Black, one of the major figures in neurosurgery in
this country. He's chairman of the Department of Neurosurgery,
director of the Maxine Dunitz Neurosurgical Institute at
Cedars-Sinai. And he was Johnnie Cochran's doctor.
Later,
we'll get into a major discussion about cell phones and we'll
include our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Johnnie died March 29
2005, of a brain tumor.
This is Dale's first interview since
then.
What indication did he give you that something was
wrong?
DALE COCHRAN, JOHNNIE COCHRAN'S WIDOW:
Initially, there was a loss of memory. He asked his secretary to
call me and get me on the phone because he couldn't remember the
phone number to the house. And...
KING: Did he dismiss that
or get concerned?
D. COCHRAN: I got concerned right away
that he couldn't remember my telephone number. And we immediately
went to see a doctor in the next day or two.
KING: Is that
memory loss a major cause of concern, Dr. Black?
DR. KEITH BLACK, NEUROSURGEON, CEDARS-SINAI MEDICAL CENTER,
JOHNNIE COCHRAN'S PHYSICIAN: Larry, memory loss can be a cause
of concern. I mean any function that the brain is responsible for
can be a symptom of a brain tumor.
KING: So you should check
it out, any symptom?
BLACK: Any symptom related to memory,
speech, vision, movement.
KING: Headaches?
BLACK:
Headaches. You know, one of the most common presenting symptoms in
an adult is new onset seizure, as well as headaches.
KING:
Like Ted Kennedy had?
BLACK: Similar to Senator Ted
Kennedy's.
KING: Johnnie Cochran probably was one of the
best known attorneys in the United States. Not probably, he was one
of the best known attorneys. He was a celebrity in his own right, a
great friend of this show. We have a little montage here for
you.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNNIE
COCHRAN, ATTORNEY: It makes no sense. It doesn't fit.
If
it doesn't fit, you must acquit.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We,
the jury in the above entitled action, find the defendant, Orenthal
James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder.
J.
COCHRAN: The resolution of this case is in no way an admission of
guilt by Michael Jackson.
This is a great, exhilarating
victory for Sean Combs. It's a victory, really, for all of
us.
Thank you for your attention. God bless you.
(END
VIDEO CLIP)
KING: The night after the Simpson decision,
Johnnie guested on this show. It was an historic moment because
O.J. called in during that show.
How did he become your
patient, doctor?
BLACK: We were actually, Larry, close
friends. We had actually vacationed together on summer vacations
with our mutual families. And, actually, before he developed the
tumor that was ultimately more aggressive, I was treating Johnnie
for a more benign tumor a few years before.
KING: In the brain?
BLACK: It was in the skull,
yes.
KING: But that was not a death signal?
BLACK:
That's correct. And it was unrelated to the subsequent tumor that
he developed.
KING: How did you find out what he
had?
BLACK: I actually received a call from Johnnie's
assistant, as Dale indicated, concerned about his difficulty with
memory and also some difficulty with speech. He was in New York at
the time and had been admitted to a hospital in New York.
They
had performed some studies, MRI scans. They saw an abnormality
within the brain. They were not sure what the abnormality on the
MRI scan demonstrated. I initially thought it might be an
infection. And I spoke with Johnnie and also with Dale and they
flew back to Los Angeles, where we did further diagnostic
studies.
KING: Did you have to do a biopsy?
BLACK: We
did a biopsy, yes.
KING: Dale, did you know he was
terminal?
D. COCHRAN: I don't really like to use the word
terminal. I knew that he had a very serious malignant tumor, but I
didn't look at it in terms of being terminal.
KING: Did he
know how serious it was?
D. COCHRAN: We knew it was serious,
but we thought it was treatable and that, you know, we should work
our way out of it.
KING: What was the treatment? He had
surgery, right?
BLACK: Initially, Johnny's tumor was in an
area that is considered not safe to operate on, Larry. It was in an
area that was critical for his language -- in fact, very similar, I
presume, for Senator Kennedy's. It's responsibility for both his
ability to comprehend and understand language, as well as memory.
So surgery, at least to try to remove all of the tumor that
we could see on the MRI scan, was not one of the initial treatment
options. So that -- you know, that option wasn't one of the weapons
that we could use to fight the tumor.
KING: But later you
did use surgery, right?
BLACK: Later, as part of an
experimental protocol, we went in and did surgery, yes.
KING: We all liked Johnnie. I don't know anyone who didn't like
him -- defense attorneys who opposed him, prosecutors...
D.
COCHRAN: Oh, yes.
KING: You had to like Johnnie Cochran.
D.
COCHRAN: Um-hmm.
KING: What were his last days like? Did he
die at home?
D. COCHRAN: He died at home. The whole family
was there, all of the kids and myself, his sisters, his father, who
has lived with us for a number of years.
KING: He's still
living?
D. COCHRAN: He's still living. He still lives with
me. He's 91- years-old, I'm pleased to say.
KING: Did
Johnnie know he was passing?
D. COCHRAN: You know, it was a
very quiet period of time. And, again, we knew it was serious, but
we were trying to keep him as comfortable and maintain a good
quality of life for him in the last days.
KING: Doctor, is
there pain involved in this?
BLACK: Larry, typically
no.
KING: No?
BLACK: But the brain has no sensation.
It provides sensation to the rest of the body. But this is not a
painful process.
KING: So do Dale and Dr. Black think
there's a link between cell phones and Johnnie Cochran's brain
tumor?
He used cell phones quite a lot.
Find out when
we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO
CLIP)
TIFFANY COCHRAN EDWARDS, JOHNNIE COCHRAN'S
DAUGHTER: He was such a wonderful man. He was just wonderful.
He meant everything to me. And, dad, I know that you are the best
dressed man in heaven.
JONATHAN COCHRAN, JOHNNIE
COCHRAN'S SON: I look at it now and it seems like he was taken
too soon. But I think of it as he's on a big case and for whatever
reason, God needed a lawyer in heaven and said call Johnnie
Cochran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Sanjay Gupta joins us. Dr. Gupta
is our chief CNN medical correspondent, himself is a practicing
neurosurgeon.
OK, let's move to the subject at hand.
Do
you see, Dale, as a lay person, the possibility of cell phone use
and Johnnie's illness?
D. COCHRAN: I think perhaps there
could be. But as a lay person, I have no knowledge -- scientific
knowledge that there is a definitive link.
KING: People at
CNN who saw a lot of him said he was on that phone a lot. Is that
true?
D. COCHRAN: Yes, he was on the phone a lot. But as Dr.
Black used to say, use an earpiece when we're using the cell
phone.
KING: That's a simple solution to this, don't --
instead of your phones, attach an earpiece to the phone?
D.
COCHRAN: Attach an earpiece immediately.
KING: All right,
Dr. Black, what do you make of the possibility?
BLACK: Well,
Larry, I think if we look at the evidence that we have now, it's
difficult to say that cell phones have a direct link to brain
cancer, but it's also difficult to say that they're safe. There
have been studies that come down on both sides of the issue.
If
you look at some of the studies that have been performed -- I mean
one of the studies that is very concerning has been a story out of
Europe that looked at a long-term exposure to the use of cell
phones over a period of 10 years. And when patients or people were
exposed to over 2,000 hours of cell phone use -- which is about an
hour a day for 10 years -- that study reported about a 3.7-fold
increase in the risk of developing brain cancer.
KING: Is
that considered high?
BLACK: That's considered, you know, a
significant increase, although the overall incidence of brain
cancer is low. But there have been other studies to show no
correlation.
KING: What do you read, Dr. Gupta.
DR.
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know,
it's interesting, because you look at all the studies out there and
most people will say, look, I mean they're fine. A lot of
scientists will say that. But, you know, I've read all these
studies, Larry. I mean I've spent the last year sort of really
reading this. And there are 16 really good studies out there, a few
since 2000.
Most of them, if you really dissect it down,
they really only follow the patients along for just a few years.
And, you know, if people use their cell phones for years and years
and kids start using them, they're going to use them their whole
lifetime. Also, some of the studies say regular cell phone use is
using it one time a week for six months.
I mean who uses a cell phone that little nowadays?
So my
point is this, that, you know, if you read the studies alone,
they'll say they're safe.
But if you start to say well,
look, wait a second, how about if it's 10 years, how about it's 20,
30, 40 years...
KING: We don't know yet.
GUPTA: We
don't know. And if you use your phone all the time -- like I -- you
know, people in the news business, they have a cell phone to the
ear all the time.
Is that really safe?
KING: Doctor,
I know it's true, having interviewed many people on the subject of
tobacco and lung cancer, we can't tell you why tobacco causes lung
cancer. We know that it causes lung cancer by the statistical
rate.
Do you think we'll have a statistical rate to link
these two?
BLACK: Well, I think, as Dr. Gupta said, one of
the big concerns that we face is that there has not, Larry, been a
definitive study to date. And I think particularly among young
people who are logging, you know, thousands of hours...
KING:
Teenagers?
BLACK: Teenagers and even younger -- and they
will be using cell phones for 20 or 30 years, we do not have enough
data now to say that, you know, that is a safe device.
Unfortunately, you know, my suspicion is that it's going to be five
years or 10 years before we have a definitive answer. And
unfortunately, you know, as you showed at the beginning of the
show, there's a billion people, you know, that will be using cell
phones and they will be using cell phones for many years. We don't
know that that will necessarily be a safe practice.
KING:
All right, Dr. Gupta, Dr. Black says it's possible.
Do you
say it's possible?
GUPTA: Yes, I do. And, you know, when we
were -- when I was researching for the book that you and I talked
about, I looked into all of this. I started researching it and
really understanding it. And I think when I had kids, I became more
interested in it, frankly. And I think it's possible.
I
think it's, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, I
use a cell phone all the time. Most people do. I use an earpiece
now, as Dale Cochran talked about. But I think it's one of those
things where you recognize that this is a -- it's a non-ionizing,
microwave producing device that we carry around with us all the
time. And, you know, I think, for the most part, people watching
who use a cell phone will be just fine. But there is a concern out
there and I think people need to be careful.
KING: Dr. Black, from the place where Johnnie's tumor was, was
that at a place where it might be near where a cell phone would
operate by the ear?
BLACK: Yes. And, again, you know,
although there hasn't been any definitive studies, there have been
some studies that show a correlation between the side that you use
a cell phone on and the side that you use...
KING: If it's
the left side, you're going to get it on the left side?
BLACK:
...the side that you develop a brain tumor on. But -- and that's
been one of the red flags that has raised concerns among people
that are looking into this, whether there is a correlation because,
you know, we see tumors developing in the location -- close to the
location that people do use cell phones.
KING: Now, I'm told
that -- I'm not an expert on this so I'm going to read it. "Cell
phones operate with radio frequencies, RFs. It's a form of energy.
What's known about the impact of RF on human tissue?"
GUPTA:
Well, you know, there's ionizing radiation and there's non-ionizing
radiation. Cell phones give off non-ionizing radiation.
KING:
Meaning?
GUPTA: Ionizing is like the x-rays and things like
that. And I think pretty much everyone knows if you are x-rays all
the time, that's not good. Non-ionizing is less problematic, I
think, than ionizing.
One of the bigger concerns, though, I
think, is the fact that it just generates a lot of heat or it
generates heat. And you're putting a heat source, essentially,
close to your ear, close to your brain for, you know, again, long
periods of time, depending on how long you use it.
KING: Do
you use cell phones, Dana?
D. COCHRAN: Yes. I use cell
phones.
KING: On a regular basis, every day?
D.
COCHRAN: On a regular basis, yes.
KING: Dr. Black?
BLACK:
I...
KING: I said Dane and it's Dale. I'm sorry.
D.
COCHRAN: That's all right. BLACK: I use a cell phone, but I always
use an earpiece. You know, it's the antenna for the cell phone that
is the source for the microwave energy. And as Dr. Gupta said, you
know, that energy is directly proportional, actually, to the square
of how close you hold it to your brain. So, you know, I think the
safe practice is to use an earpiece so that you keep the microwave
antenna away from your head.
KING: So are you going to
instruct the patient of your...
BLACK: I've instructed Dale...
D. COCHRAN: Oh, yes.
Yes.
BLACK: ...and anyone who will listen that the safe
practice is to use an earpiece.
D. COCHRAN: Yes.
KING:
Dr. Gupta, do you use a cell phone?
GUPTA: I do. And I use
an earpiece. And part of that's due to Dr. Black, because I talked
to him a couple of years ago about this and...
KING:
Really?
So you all were suspicious?
GUPTA:
Well...
KING: You had to be suspicious or why -- why bother
with the earpiece?
GUPTA: Yes, I think so. And, you know,
even if you look at the manuals and things like that, they'll tell
you that there is a, as Dr. Black said, the further away you put
the phone from your ear, you know, the much safer it is. It sort of
drops off in terms of the amount of radiation you're exposed
to.
KING: Some have called cell phone use more dangerous
than smoking. Next, a doctor who stands by that
statement.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Welcome back to
LARRY KING LIVE.
Dale Cochran will be joining us later
on.
Dr. Keith Black and Dr. Sanjay Gupta remain with
us.
Another neurosurgeon joins us. He's in Canberra,
Australia. He's Dr. Vini Khurana. He's associate professor of
neurosurgery at the Canberra Hospital.
Doctor Khurana, you
say that the danger of cell phones could have far broader health
ramifications than asbestos and smoking. What do you base it
on?
DR. VINI KHURANA, NEUROSURGEON, THE CANBERRA
HOSPITAL: I base it on the fact, Larry, that at this point in
time, there's just over three billion users of cell phones
worldwide. So that's half of our world population, or almost half.
We've reached saturation points. For example, in Australia, there
are 22 million cell phones and 21 million people. And the concern
is not just brain tumors, but other health effects associated or
reported to be associated with cell phones, including behavioral
disturbances, salivary gland tumors, male infertility and microwave
sickness syndrome.
So we're not just talking about tumors, and I was not just
implying brain tumors, but there are other health effects. And with
so many users and users starting at the age of three and up now, we
should be concerned. And I stand by those comments.
KING:
Dr. Black, would you comment on what he just said?
BLACK:
Well, I think that we do not have conclusive studies, at this
point, to make a scientific conclusion that there is a, you know, a
definite correlation. I do think that he raises a very important
concern, I think particularly among young people using cell phones.
And I think the concern among other types of neurological problems,
other than brain cancer, because, you know, a microwave antenna is
very similar to a microwave oven. It's heating the brain. So we
don't know what long-term effects that will have on memory as our
young adults age and other...
KING: So this is a cause of
concern?
BLACK: ...other neurological problems. That's
correct.
KING: Dr. Gupta, what do you make of what Dr.
Khurana just said?
GUPTA: Yes, you know, I think even Dr.
Khurana, you know, he looked at existing studies. He didn't do his
own studies here, but he's looked at something that I think has
been concerning to a lot of people who have really sat down and
looked at these studies for some time.
One is that, you
know, where there is smoke, there's fire, that's the old adage,
right?
And I think that there's enough sort of concern out
there to at least prompt people to think more about how they use
their cell phones, using earpieces, keeping it further away from
the ear and things like that.
How profound it is, is a
little bit harder to say.
KING: I want you look at something
on the screen now. We know that brain tumors are the number one
cancer killer among children in the United States and the second
most common form of cancer in kids.
What, Dr. Khurana, does
this tell us? KHURANA: Well, it tells us that we need to be very
careful if we're looking to find answers to what might be causing
problems. We need to be -- we need to have an open mind. We need
have an open mind. And if there is a potential cause out there, we
need to seriously look into it. And I think as part of that
question, the World Health Organization has come to a point where
it agreed about a decade ago -- or over a decade ago -- to host the
Interphone Study Group. And I would under -- I would hope that most
people are aware of what that is.
KING: How do children's
phones, Dr. Black, differ from -- children's brains, rather, differ
from adults?
BLACK: Well, the -- in the developing brain,
you have a lot more dividing nerve cells and supportive cells in
the brain. So it's in a very dynamic state. And those cells are
more vulnerable to developing cancer from an injury or other types
of problems. We know from laboratory animals, for example, that,
you know, the most effective way of inducing a tumor is to induce
it in a young developing embryo, in a young developing animal. So
those brains are much more susceptible.
KING: One type of tumor often mentioned in the discussion of
potential risk of cell phones is acoustic neuroma.
Sanjay is
over by our board. What is that?
GUPTA: Well, let me give
you a picture here, Larry, to sort of show you this. This is
animation of the brain, sort of looking at it from the behind, as
you can see there. I'm going to spin that brain around and take you
to a very specific part of it. Here's the ear. Larry, we're going
to go inside the ear here to the inner part over here. And that is
right in here, that red part. That is a tumor that comes off one of
the specific nerves in the inner ear.
Let me show you what
that looks like on an MRI scan. This is a scan that somebody would
get in the doctor's office. You sort of look at that scan and you
see a specific tumor and sort of within the brain. If we have that,
I'll show you that.
But, basically, this is a tumor of the
inner ear and -- there you go, Larry. You can see it here. Just to
orient you, the eyes are going to be up here, the ear is going to
be over here. This big white mass, that is what's an acoustic
neuroma -- a tumor of the specific nerve in that inner ear
area.
KING: Is that something that you would possibly
associate with cell phones?
GUPTA: Well, some of the studies
that we've been talking about so far this hour talk about this
specific sort of tumor and it's possible association here. Dr.
Black mentioned that some of the studies are actually looking at
the cell phone usage found. In some of these European studies,
almost a four times increased likelihood of developing tumors like
this one in people who are chronic cell phone users. KING: Thanks,
Sanjay.
We have an e-mail from Jody in North Royalton, Ohio:
"My husband has a grade three inoperable glioma on the left
side his brain. Prior to the diagnosis, he was constantly on his
cell phone, but he held it to the right side of his head. If cell
phone use was a factor, wouldn't there be evidence on that side?"
-- Dr. Black.
BLACK: Well, I think it's very difficult,
Larry, to make a direct correlation between an individual
developing a brain tumor and the use of cell phones. So we know
that there is...
KING: You can't discuss an individual case
then?
BLACK: Well, there is a base line rate of people
developing tumors. So, you know, one's brain tumor may be or it may
not be related to a particular type of environmental insult. So
just because it's -- you know, you have a tumor, doesn't mean that
it's linked to cell phones. So, you know, tumors that are closer to
that area may be more likely. Also, these brain cells -- cancer
cells can migrate. So it's possible for a cell to get an injury and
then migrate to a different location within the brain, as
well.
KING: Dr. Khurana, by the way, do you use a cell
phone?
KHURANA: I do, Larry. I mean they're invaluable, of
course, as we all know. I use it on the speaker phone mode. I do
not hold it to my ear.
KING: Want to know what the American
Cancer Society thinks about cell phones?
Their answer might
surprise you and it's next on LARRY KING LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Remaining with us, Dr. Keith
Black, chairman of department of neurosurgery at Cedar-Sinai, Dr.
Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent and a neurosurgeon
himself, in Australia, Dr. Vini Khurana, neurosurgeon, associate
professor of neurosurgery at Canberra Hospital. Joining us now from
Washington, Dr. Michael Thun of the American Cancer Society, vice
president of epidemiology and surveillance.
Where does the
American Cancer Society, doctor, stand on this subject?
DR.
MICHAEL THUN, AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY: The way I think the best
way to look at this is keep an open mind, but also be very aware of
what we know and what we don't know. So just to go through what we
know, we know that the type of radio frequency that comes from cell
phones is very different from what comes from an X-Ray or a nuclear
bomb. So we're really talking about a very different type of
emission that is sort of the halfway between an FM radio and the
microwave.
Secondly, we know that in the country that's
used cell phones for the longest, which is Sweden -- they came in
the early 1980's and the early cell phones were -- had much higher
emissions than today's cell phones. The brain cancer rates have
been flat since the introduction of cell phones. That doesn't
completely clear the story, but it is an important piece of
information.
Third, we know that the studies that have been
done on brain cancer, and I'm going to distinguish brain cancer
from acoustic neuroma, have largely been reassuring. And the
studies that have found an association, some of them have found
such a strong association that they really don't fit at all with
the time course of brain cancer in the United States.
KING:
Can you break it down? Well, let's break it down a little. Do you
think there's a link?
THUN: I think that what's still in
question is the acoustic neuromas. I think that cell phones are not
risk-free. They certainly cause car accidents. I think that there
are always surprises when you have a new technology and you have
hundreds of millions of people using them. I think arrogance is the
worst way to go. And I think it's quite sensible for people who are
concerned to use an ear phone and to basically eliminate their
exposure.
But I think now most of the people who actually
do research on brain cancer causes are very skeptical that cell
phones cause brain cancer.
KING: Dr. Khurana, how would you
respond?
KHURANA: I strongly disagree with Dr. Thun's
perspective. Let me just read you something here, Larry. This is
professor Bruce Armstrong, professor and head of the University of
Sydney's public health -- school of public health. He's Australia's
-- the head of the Interphone arm that is incorporating Australian
research. He's the head of that.
He came on national
television two weeks ago, and I'll quote you: "I think the
evidence that is accumulating is pointing towards an effect of
mobile phones on tumors. I would not want to be a heavy user of a
mobile phone. People might be shocked to hear that the evidence
does seem to be coming more strongly in support of harmful
effects."
He specifies glioma, a primary brain tumor, cancer, acoustic
neuroma and prodded gland tumors. Now beyond that, Larry, when Dr.
Thun talks about no rise in the published incidents rates of tumors
in Sweden, the strongest studies that have pointed towards links
between cell phones and brain tumors have, in fact, come from
Sweden. And while there hasn't been an increase in the rate of
brain cancers overall, we have to also remember that they do take
time before they are registered in local registries and that data
has to be correlated and eventually that data will come through.
KING: We're going to -- we're going to excuse Dr. Black for
a couple of segments. Before he leaves us -- he will be returning
with Dana Cochran. Are you more confused when you listen to the two
doctors?
BLACK: No, no Larry, I'm not. It's not uncommon in
science to have conflicting articles. You know, a lot of studies
may not be perfect. Each study may have some flaw to the study. So,
you know, as I said in the beginning, at this point, we cannot say
with any certainty that cell phones either are safe or not safe.
And my concern is that with the widespread use of cell phones, I
think the worst scenario would be that we get the definitive study
ten years from now and we find there's a correlation.
KING:
Dr. Black will be returning. And the other doctors will remain and
he will return with Dale Cochran. We invited the wireless
industry's trade organization, CTIA, the wireless association, to
take part in tonight's discussion. They declined.
However,
CTIA did provide us with this statement: "this is an issue
that should be guided by science. The overwhelming majority of
studies that have been published in scientific journals around the
globe show that wireless phones do not pose a health risk.
Furthermore, this is the public position of leading health
organizations, such as the United States Food and Drug
Administration, the FDA, the American Cancer Society, ACS, and the
World Health Organization, WHO. The industry supports continued
research as technology continues to evolve, but wishes to stress
the fact that there is a consensus among leading health
organizations regarding published scientific research showing no
reason for concern."
CTIA also referred to us the
American Cancer Society for more comments on this topic.
When
we come back, cell phones past and present. Is technology advancing
faster than medical research? Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL
BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I
wouldn't blame the cell phone companies. It's more the individual's
responsibility.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cigarettes have surgeon
generals warning on them. I just think it should be something the
public should know about.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If it is conclusive that it can cause brain
tumors, then I think there should be some sort of a warning.
(END
VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Dr. Gupta, Dr. Khurana and Dr. Thun remain
with us.
Joining us in New York is Lewis Slesin. He is
editor of MicrowaveNews.com. That's the founding editor and
publisher of Microwave News, maybe the major publication in this
field.
Two quick things, Lewis. First, what do you think of
the theory of the possibility of the cell phone causing brain
cancer? And, two, how far along has the industry evolved?
DR.
LOUIS SLESIN, EDITOR AND PUBLISHER, "MICROWAVE NEWS":
Well, the first thing is that it is quite possible because we're
seeing these kinds of effects in a number of epidemiological
studies on this Interphone study mentioned on the program. Studies
from northern Europe, from Israel especially, from France, from
Germany, all point to a risk of, you know, cell phone links to
brain tumors and to neuromas and grand tumors.
KING: And
how far has the --
SLESIN: What we're missing is the
understanding of how this could possibly work. We don't have a
mechanism and that's a big stumbling block at the moment.
KING:
Let's watch. In fact, Sanjay is going to do a little exercise for
us in the growth of an industry.
GUPTA: It's a trip down
memory lane, if you will. You remember early cell phones. This is a
Motorola phone. It used to come in a bag. This is the early '80s.
Then they came with this handle. This was the mid'80s. Things were
changing, the size of the phone, the quality of the phone, but also
the amount of radiation it gave off. It went down as phones got
more advanced.
This was a phone from 1983. Take a look at
this thing, it's just huge. This is a phone people probably became
most familiar with. This was the Motorola flip phone. This was '92.
And this was a phone that was probably one of the most popular at
that time. The Nokia a few years later, this was '98, and then '99
and then 2001.
They got smaller, as you can see. They went
down in this non- ionizing radio frequency as well, which was a
good thing, I think, by everyone's admission.
KING: Is this
much safer than that?
GUPTA: It's hard to say. The science
would suggest that they were actually all safe. You know, they
didn't give off enough non- ionizing radio frequency to be a
problem. But if you are worried about the fact that people use
phones all the time -- they have them to their ear all the time --
this would be a much safer bet than something like this.
KING:
Run them down. Dr. Thun, do you think this one is safer than that
one?
THUN: I think it produces less emissions, but I think
that this is a little bit missing the point. The main point is that
if one is concerned about the emissions from cell phones, you can
get rid of it almost entirely by a Bluetooth or ear plug. And so we
have a situation with a widely used technology in which we don't
have very, very long-term follow-up, and we don't have very
long-term follow-up of kids. And, so, you are sort of asking for a
definite answer to state where the science is quite indefinite.
The weight of the evidence is negative. But we don't have all
the answers.
KING: One of the problems, Dr. Khurana, is
almost everybody has a cell phone. So you can't run a comparison
like tobacco and lung cancer, the user and the nonuser. Everyone is
a user.
THUN: You are absolutely right. That is one of the
problems with the Interphone study, which is the World Health
Organization study between 13 countries. You are right. The control
group uses cell phones. They may be using cordless phones as well,
which we also know are risk factors based on data. So here you've
got a control group that uses it, and you have a user group that
uses it. As Dr. Gupta has pointed out, their quantification of what
constitutes regular use is itself quite alarming.
All you
have to do to be a regular user is use a cell phone for once a week
for six months or more. That's not much cell phone usage, is it?
KING: Louis, would it be a simple solution, everyone should
use an ear phone?
SLESIN: That's right. That's what people
should do. I'm not sure I would advocate the Bluetooth because
although it's much weaker, you are putting the antenna, the
transmitter right into your ear, next to your brain. We don't know
about thresholds. We don't know about mechanisms. So caution should
be our guide.
I think everybody on this program has agreed
that using a headset is really the right way to go. I'd certainly
agree with that.
KING: Sanjay, what does the manual say?
GUPTA: It's interesting. Hardly anyone ever reads these
safety manuals.
KING: They come with the phone.
GUPTA:
They come with the phone. If you read this very carefully, it says,
when carrying the device, not even when using it, just carrying it
and the device is on, you should be using a specific pre-approved
holster that has been tested for compliance. Often times, these
phone come with a holster.
KING: Use it?
GUPTA: They
say, use it. They say that makes it the most safe. And when you are
actually using the phone, it should be kept at least 15 millimeters
up to an inch away from your ear. I mean, the proper way to use a
phone would to be hold it like this.
KING: When they see
keep it in the holster, that means keep it away from your body.
GUPTA: Keep it away from your body.
KING: Somebody is scared. GUPTA: Yes, this is from the
manufacturer themselves.
KING: You are watching LARRY KING
LIVE.
Thanks, Louis Slesin, for being with us. If you heard
any specific references to brand names of cell phones tonight, they
are just representatives of cell phones in general, and not
indicative that any brand would be more likely to cause health
problems.
Next, do you believe cell phones are harmful?
We'll have a quick vote. Go to CNN.com/larryking and tell us. Is
there a best way to use a cell phone? That's ahead on LARRY KING
LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Joining our panel from
New York is Dr. Ted Schwartz. He's director of brain tumor surgery
at New York Presbyterian Hospital.
I don't know what you
think about this whole subject. But first, if the manual says keep
it in some sort of holster and keep it away from your ear, would
you say the manufacturer is worried about something, Dr. Schwartz?
DR. TED SCHWARTZ, NEW YORK PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL: I
don't really think they are worried about brain tumors. I really
think the overwhelming amount of evidence that we have from
reviewing the literature has shown there really is no good, viable
link between cell phone use and brain tumors.
And I really
want to focus on a couple of issues, which is that, you know, when
a patient comes into your office with a brain tumor, and they are
very scared; they are afraid as to what caused this brain tumor,
it's very important to focus a patient's attention and to focus the
nation's attention not on this potentially very remote cause of
brain tumors, but on trying to think about new treatment options
and trying to get the nation to focus on how can we treat brain
tumors, rather than this very remote cause of brain tumors.
KING:
But if it is a cause and can be helped by using ear phones why not?
SCHWARTZ: Yes, there's no problem with using ear phones.
And I think it's a great idea if you are worried about it. But I do
want to say that if you look at the literature now, most of the
data shows that there is no link. And there's really no good
mechanism by which non-ionizing radiation can cause brain tumors.
KING: Dr. Khurana, you want to respond?
KHURANA:
Absolutely. First, Dr. Schwartz, we don't even know how we think.
We don't know how we think and how processing in the brain results
in appropriate speech, based on different functionalities at
different locations of the brain. So we don't know how we speak yet
or think. Yet we know that we do.
And so just because we
don't know the mechanism or the link between -- at a molecular
level, between how cell phones may generate the milieu at a
molecular level that results in a brain tumor does not mean that
there is no mechanism. There's no known mechanism, but not
necessarily no mechanism.
Secondly, you referred to the overwhelming data that suggests
it's safe. I would like to point you to the long-term data that's
coming out of the Interphone studies. And I think I should quote
them. Before doing that, I do agree with you. When a patient comes
to the surgery, the focus is not what caused it. It's how to best
treat it and how to help them. And this is not implying that every
brain tumor is the result of this. Absolutely not.
But as
Larry has also said, if there's a known cause, and if there is a
possibility of even mitigating the incidence even slightly, that
would be helpful.
KING: Quickly, doctor, because I'm
running short of time. Go ahead.
KHURANA: OK, Sedesky (ph)
from Israel, the Israel arm of Interphone, this is what she says:
"a positive dose response trend was found. Our results suggest
an association between cellular phone use and prodded gland
tumors."
Lacola (ph) from Finland, Interphone group,
"for more than 10 years, of mobile phone use reported on the
side of the head where the tumor was located, an increased odds
ratio of borderline statistical significance was found."
And
others have said the same thing. It's the long-term data we should
be looking at.
KING: We're obviously going to devote more
time to this. I thank all of our guests. When we come back, Dr.
Gupta will be with us, along with the return of Dale Cochran and
Dr. Keith Black. We'll wrap it up when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL
BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNNIE COCHRAN,
ATTORNEY: If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.
Every
morning when I get up, when I look at all the choices of things I
could be, I love being a lawyer. It gives you an opportunity to do
interesting things. It gives me an opportunity to represent people
who are injured. It gives me an opportunity to represent people who
I believe are innocent. It gives me an opportunity if I want to go
into politics. For young kids out there, it's a great career.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Dale Cochran, you have heard
a lot of the discussion tonight. What do you make of it? D.
COCHRAN: Well, I think it's an enigma. It remains an enigma. We
want to do everything we can to find out if there is a link. But,
more importantly, my particular interest is to accelerate
discoveries in the treatment of brain tumors, which is why I am so
happy that we've established the Johnny Cochran Brain Tumor Center.
KING: More information go to what?
D. COCHRAN:
Cedars-Sinai Johnny Cochran Brain Tumor Center.
KING: Is
the Johnny Cochran Brain Tumor Center -- we were there at its
opening.
D. COCHRAN: Yes, you were.
KING: That's Cedars-Sinai in Los Angeles. Dr. Black, do
you have questions about portable phones, cordless phones?
BLACK:
Again, I think the emissions from cordless phones in the house are
very low, and I would be less concerned with those than cell
phones. But, Larry, we also know there are other environmental
causes that have been related to brain tumors as well. Firemen have
an occupational risk of brain cancer because of diesel exposure.
We're looking at the association at Cedars with a grant from the
air quality management district between air pollution and brain
cancer.
People that work in plastic factories -- as Dale
said, I think one of the things that we're very excited about is
not only trying to identify potential causes that we can eliminate,
but also trying to find effective treatments and cures at the
Johnny Cochran Brain Tumor Center.
KING: It's a wonderful
place and a great addition the health system in this country. Dr.
Gupta is at the big board again with some tips on safer cell phone
use.
GUPTA: Larry, based on the industry's recommendations,
all the scientific studies we read, let me show you the safest way
to use a cell phone. Brad here has a wired ear piece in his left
ear. It goes down to his phone. It's carried in the approved
holster. That is what they recommend.
Brad has a phone in
his breast pocket. They don't recommend carrying a phone in your
breast pocket. Brad has a phone in his pocket of his pants. Again,
they don't recommend that based on the industry's recommendation.
And finally, not wearing one of these non- ionizing Bluetooth
things all the time. They do give off less radiation than a cell
phone, but wearing it all the time could be a problem.
KING:
There are a lot of don'ts.
GUPTA: There are a lot of
don'ts. The major do is use one of these wired ear pieces. Again, a
wired ear piece down to an industry approved holster is what the
people recommend.
KING: Thank you so much, Dr. Sanjay --
Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
The food -- by the way, we'll show you a
screen effect here. The Food and Drug Administration made
recommendations about cell phone use. First, to use cell phones
less often and to use land lines whenever possible. And the FDA
also recommends keeping cell phones away from your head by using a
speaker phone or using a head set or other connection to remote
antenna. I keep coming back to it.
It seems, Dale, that if
they don't have any proof, people are at least concerned.
D.
COCHRAN: Yes, I think people are concerned. I can think back at
least five years ago when Dr. Black wore an ear piece back then. We
could barely find them in the stores but he had one on and Johnny
would say, listen if Dr. Black is wearing an ear piece, we should
also. And that's what we've done. So there are definitely
precautions we should take.
But I think that it is a
question that needs to be studied and examined along with other
causes of brain cancer.
KING: When something happens like
to Senator Ted Kennedy, that focuses more effort on it, doesn't it,
more attention?
BLACK: It does, Larry. And I think that
given the research and break throughs we are now making in cancer
and brain cancer in particular, one of the positive outcomes is
that if we can get more research funding, we can accelerate finding
an effective treatment for this disease.
KING: You can
contact the Johnny Cochran Brain Center at Cedars- Sinai. Do you
believe that cell phones are harmful? Go to CNN.com/larryking and
take our quick vote.
While your there, download our latest
podcast, Jesse Ventura. Or check out our newest web feature, about
last night.
Speaking of last night, our "American
Idol" contest winners, Laura from Morgantown, West Virginia,
she knew the complete set list. And congratulations to Jeff in
Freemont, Nebraska. He got David Cook's set completely correct.
Jeff and Laura, your prizes are in the mail. Each of you gets a
pair of my suspenders autographed by every "American Idol"
finalist.
Time now for Anderson Cooper and "A.C. 360"
-- Anderson.
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