Structure.
xena
The last novel manuscript that I completed, I sat down and wrote pages
of notes and outlines. When I got an idea (I might be in the middle of
writing some chapter and get a brainstorm about another), I just
penciled it into my notes & outline.
I find that if I don't know where I'm going when I start out (I did this
all the time the first several times I wrote), it might be somewhat
interesting, but I ALWAYS run into a roadblock. Have at least an idea
of how to pass through those roadblocks.
OH! One thing I remember I did is make index cards. I had several scene
ideas, one on each card, and I used this method to help me decide order.
When it came time to type, I just went by the cards and let the scene
flow.
As far as tying things together and strengthening, I think that a lot of
that can come in editing if it wasn't part of the original brainstorm.
You start seeing patterns. You notice a symbol in the first chapter and
you'd like to repeat it somewhere.
I read a neat chapter in one of my writer's digest books about shadows
and echoes and stuff. It can really make things interesting.
BTW, I haven't written many short stories. So far as structure's
concerned, I usually just write through, then try to figure out how to
arrange it all better, see where I really goofed up. ('xactly opposite
of novel).
Oh, and since you're concerned about it so much, let me add something I
read somewhere..."Great books aren't written; they're re-written."
So it hardly ever comes in the first try.
Xena
SereneBabe wrote:
>
> Do you think consciously about the structure of what you're writing?
>
> Do you think, "I'll say this and this will strengthen that and this will
> strengthen that" until the end?
>
> Or, do you consider the structure of what you're writing so much that you could
> draw it before you even have the words?
>
> Or, (I hope, because I'm afraid of formal structure) do you write and the
> structure appears as it wants?
>
> --Heather
> ***********
>
> "Why are the pretty ones always insane?" -- Chief Wiggum
M Barnard
>
>
>Do you think consciously about the structure of what you're writing?
>
M (issing silly comment)
--
----
m_ba...@yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------
--------
If androids dream of electric sheep, what do electric sheep dream of?
SereneBabe
Do you think consciously about the structure of what you're writing?
Do you think, "I'll say this and this will strengthen that and this will
Lucy Kemnitzer
wrote:
>
>
>Do you think consciously about the structure of what you're writing?
>
>Do you think, "I'll say this and this will strengthen that and this will
>strengthen that" until the end?
>
>Or, do you consider the structure of what you're writing so much that you could
>draw it before you even have the words?
>
>Or, (I hope, because I'm afraid of formal structure) do you write and the
>structure appears as it wants?
Yes. All of these things.
I usually really understand the structure of what I'm writing after
I've started writing, even if I've planned it all out in advance.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Steve Pritchard
>
>Do you think, "I'll say this and this will strengthen that and this will
>strengthen that" until the end?
>
>Or, do you consider the structure of what you're writing so much that you
could
>draw it before you even have the words?
>
>Or, (I hope, because I'm afraid of formal structure) do you write and the
>structure appears as it wants?
Depends entirely upon what one is writing. Let's say you are preparing a
technical report - you *need* to have the structure in your head (or on
paper even) before you write the first word. If you're writing fiction,
often an outline helps. even if you're writing a post, the basic blocks from
which you are to build it should be foremost in your thoughts.
Don't think this is the answer you wanted, it is?
Pat Marcello
SereneBabe <seren...@aol.comNOSPAMMY> wrote in message
news:19990304214324...@ng111.aol.com...
>
>
>Do you think consciously about the structure of what you're writing?
>
>Do you think, "I'll say this and this will strengthen that and this will
>strengthen that" until the end?
>
>Or, do you consider the structure of what you're writing so much that you
could
>draw it before you even have the words?
>
>Or, (I hope, because I'm afraid of formal structure) do you write and the
>structure appears as it wants?
I think it's important to have a direction. Writing nonfiction with an
outline is very helpful, although I rarely stick to it religiously. During
the writing, other thoughts come to mind, or something that's in section A
might fit better in section B. I never know exactly how a piece will turn
out, until it's finished.
With fiction, again, I think outlines are helpful. But they don't have to
be formal, Heather. Just jot down your thoughts. Most helpful is to define
characters first. That way, they can help you with the plotting. My
fiction outlines usually change as I move along, but I do make them.
Pat M. Don't be afraid. Look at outlines as a path carved through the
wilderness. It's not concrete.
Write On!:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/1257/
Find jobs, books, information for writers, & Marcia Yudkin's "Freelance
Writing FAQs."
Pete Hickman
SereneBabe wrote:
> Do you think consciously about the structure of what you're writing?
These days I only write fiction and I think about structure only in a kind
of provisional way....which might be a problem sinceI tend to have a provisional
way of provisionally structuring things as
brief narrative tags involving journies, as in "Joe goes to a coastal town and..."
which is not really as structural as it may seem.
Then, having set the scene, one hopes for the elements of the story to
get blown into the narrative trap.
More crucial than anything, for me, is for each story to have a distinct
atmosphere.
distinct for me anyway. That way when an "element" pops up I know which
story it belongs to...
But what are "elements"....incidents, bits of speech, objects, gestures...etc.
etc.
> Do you think, "I'll say this and this will strengthen that and this will
> strengthen that" until the end?
Oh yes. I just spent the last two writing sessions making sure that a
certainaspect of the scenic topography (not topology) was clear and consistant in
the last few chapters.
>
>
> Or, do you consider the structure of what you're writing so much that you could
> draw it before you even have the words?
No.
>
>
> Or, (I hope, because I'm afraid of formal structure) do you write and the
> structure appears as it wants?
Well...as long as you don't mind the occasional dire and extreme interventionto
chop out this and that (removing whole characters and subplots can be fun
I have to admit)....it does work. But I've never gotten anything much published
so....
you may want to pay more heed to the advice of those who have.
Positively..........Pete
piranha
SereneBabe <seren...@aol.comNOSPAMMY> wrote:
>
>Do you think consciously about the structure of what you're writing?
yes.
>Do you think, "I'll say this and this will strengthen that and this will
>strengthen that" until the end?
yes.
>Or, do you consider the structure of what you're writing so much that you could
>draw it before you even have the words?
_can_ draw it. _do_ draw it. for technical writing. for
writing CBT/CAI (computer-based training, computer-assisted
instruction).
>Or, (I hope, because I'm afraid of formal structure) do you write and the
>structure appears as it wants?
sometimes. i don't write fiction with an outline in hand,
if that's what you mean. at least not one of those out-
lines about which i learned in school. i usually play ye
olde associative game, and then end up with an outline that
encircles all the possibilities of the story as i envision
it at the time (since i usually just start out with an idea,
which could be the beginning, but just as likely the end,
or happen somewhere in the middle, i need to brainstorm
about other things that happen around that seed of an idea).
anyway, being afraid of something seems to me a bad reason
not to do it, especially in a case like this where the fear
isn't a life and death matter. attack what you're afraid of.
conquer it. then you can use it or not use it as the case
may be, rather than be limited to one approach by your fears.
structure can be learned.
-piranha
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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William Penrose
>
> Do you think consciously about the structure of what you're writing?
>
I start thinking about structure when the writing is partly done. I
usually write things in fragments rather than from beginning to end, and
I discover too much during the writing process to be bound by a
preconceived structure. But I never finish without formalizing it as an
outline or a wall chart.
Bill
--
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MaryF...@my-dejanews.com
seren...@aol.comNOSPAMMY (SereneBabe) wrote:
>
>
> Do you think consciously about the structure of what you're writing?
>
> strengthen that" until the end?
>
could
> draw it before you even have the words?
>
> structure appears as it wants?
>
writing, most of the time, I have no idea how it's going to end. In fact, I
don't even know what's going to take me to the middle--all I know is the first
15 minutes or so (most of what I write now is in screenplay format, so I think
in terms of minutes). And sometimes, the structure will change drastically in
the revisions. Give your characters an inch, they'll take a mile, let me tell
ya!
Mary
"The whole trouble with Western Society today is the lack of anything
worth concealing."--Joe Orton
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
WhirlaWhip
Never. It's
part of the
fun for me. Well,
maybe sometimes.
No! Never!
ben blake
i'm in the tube and you are not
http://members.aol.com/whirlawhip/page/index.htm
Corncrowe
a series of scenes. The structure comes from a logical series of events that
the reader believes happened as you told them.
The story should be convincing enough for the reader to believe it as fact.
The structure comes from the belief that what you told the reader really
happened. There are other definitions of structure, but in a fictional piece
the events should be consistent with what could happen and did happen.
The construction of a house is a structured process as is writing. I do not
believe that a reader would find it very plausable that a roof can be put up
before the walls. The walls come after the foundation and so on. As with
fiction it is necessary to build a story that is believable and structure is a
part of the building process. A house with walls made of straw and a roof of
brick may have structure, but it is not believable. It is the writers job to
make it believable and there is the trick.
We have a structure that is not well designed, but appears to meet the minimum
requirements for a house.
Outlines and storylines are always good tools to use for starting with a
blueprint of the story.
This doesn't mean that the final product will actually stand on its own though.
So, there is a lot to structure that extends beyond the use of building tools
to include the right materials and in the right sequence.
As I said earlier, a story will be successful when the reader believe it really
happened. All the structure in the world will not help if nobody believes it
could or did happen as you told it.
J.L. Campbell -- Never mind the truth. It is the lie that we often believe.
freakienature
>
> strengthen that" until the end?
>
> Or, do you consider the structure of what you're writing so much that you
could
> draw it before you even have the words?
>
> Or, (I hope, because I'm afraid of formal structure) do you write and the
> structure appears as it wants?
>
> ***********
>
> "Why are the pretty ones always insane?" -- Chief Wiggum
>
nope, the structure simply appears. i find it restrictive to have to think
bout the structure first.
let's be outspoken
let's be ridiculous
let's solve the world's problems
SereneBabe
I've got another structure related question, but it's more about physical
structure -- where the words are on the page.
It's occurred to me, when I look at the last thing I wrote that I really liked,
I like to use the punctuation and the spacing of sentences to get the reader to
read it how I want it to be read. (Doozy of a sentence there, huh.)
Like.
If I want the reader to pause, or...
...linger...
I might use excessive... ... ... thingies (not like that, but the word is
escaping me...ELIPSES)...
Or, sometimes it's just that I want to make a point.
A really important point.
One that rattles the reader or shocks them, and I use a brand new line for
that.
I don't think about it, but that's what I do.
I'm wondering, is that the mark of an immature writer?
Should I be able to get the same effects via the traditional looking writing?
Like, big ol' paragraphs and hardly any funky punctuation?
Or, is it a style that is valid?
(I mean, I feel it's valid and I'm not gonna change my voice just cuz it
reveals me as the immature writer I am...but, I'm curious to know what y'all
think.)
I won't go into my whole "first person" question just yet.
Thanks!
:-)
--Heather
***********
"Why are the pretty ones always insane?" -- Chief Wiggum
"It's All About Me!"
a weekly column by SereneBabe at http://members.aol.com/serenebabe/index.html
Steve Pritchard
SereneBabe wrote in message <19990307214801...@ng04.aol.com>...
>It's occurred to me, when I look at the last thing I wrote that I really
liked,
>I like to use the punctuation and the spacing of sentences to get the
reader to
>read it how I want it to be read. (Doozy of a sentence there, huh.)
>
>Like.
>
>If I want the reader to pause, or...
>
>...linger...
>
>I might use excessive... ... ... thingies (not like that, but the word is
>escaping me...ELIPSES)...
>
>Or, sometimes it's just that I want to make a point.
>A really important point.
>One that rattles the reader or shocks them, and I use a brand new line for
>that.
>
>I don't think about it, but that's what I do.
>
>I'm wondering, is that the mark of an immature writer?
It's fine for post in a NG. I don't think it would work to well if you were
trying to sell it to a newspaper (for example).
>Should I be able to get the same effects via the traditional looking
writing?
>Like, big ol' paragraphs and hardly any funky punctuation?
Certainly. It has been done the same kind of way for the past few years, you
know, or have you never read anything "traditional" and not though "The
author is trying to make a point here"?
>Or, is it a style that is valid?
>
>(I mean, I feel it's valid and I'm not gonna change my voice just cuz it
>reveals me as the immature writer I am...but, I'm curious to know what
y'all
>think.)
You may have to change your style if you want to make a go of your newspaper
career. This is only my viewpoint though; I'd look at the other replies too.
Sitric
wrote:
>...Or, sometimes it's just that I want to make a point.
>
>A really important point.
>
>One that rattles the reader or shocks them, and I use a brand new line for
>that.
>
>I don't think about it, but that's what I do.
>
>I'm wondering, is that the mark of an immature writer?
I think it's valid, but not without dangers. If you overuse the short,
one-sentence paragraph trick, the reader can feel like you're poking
him in the chest. There's a line from not caring about the reader's
reaction at all to shepherding it too fiercely.
Stressing the importance of what you're going to say can also give you
big bathos if it turns out not to be all that earth-shattering.
-Kevin McGee
xena
I wish I could find (or at least remember) all those cool notes I took
in my writing class. Looks like I'm going to have to re-take that
course, especially since I experienced brain-fry half-way through it and
wasn't able to communicate intelligibly due to work overload.
But, I digress...
My writing teacher told us some stuff I'd never heard of, like, the last
sentence of a paragraph is the most well remembered. Now, I never read
that in all the writing books I've read. But she was telling how to
rearrange your paragraphs so that the best lines were first and last,
the first grabbing your attention, the last for effect. When you write
to make a point, keep this in mind.
I'm sure she said lots of other neat stuff, but, alas, I don't remember.
I'm taking my ginko; maybe it'll all come back to me.
Xena
SereneBabe wrote:
>
> I've got another structure related question, but it's more about physical
> structure -- where the words are on the page.
>
> It's occurred to me, when I look at the last thing I wrote that I really liked,
> I like to use the punctuation and the spacing of sentences to get the reader to
> read it how I want it to be read. (Doozy of a sentence there, huh.)
>
> Like.
>
> If I want the reader to pause, or...
>
> ...linger...
>
> I might use excessive... ... ... thingies (not like that, but the word is
> escaping me...ELIPSES)...
>
> Or, sometimes it's just that I want to make a point.
>
> A really important point.
>
> One that rattles the reader or shocks them, and I use a brand new line for
> that.
>
> I don't think about it, but that's what I do.
>
> I'm wondering, is that the mark of an immature writer?
>
> Should I be able to get the same effects via the traditional looking writing?
> Like, big ol' paragraphs and hardly any funky punctuation?
>
> Or, is it a style that is valid?
>
> (I mean, I feel it's valid and I'm not gonna change my voice just cuz it
> reveals me as the immature writer I am...but, I'm curious to know what y'all
> think.)
>
Heidi Wessman Kneale [Auntie Dem]
seren...@aol.comNOSPAMMY (SereneBabe) sayeth:
>
>I've got another structure related question, but it's more about physical
>structure -- where the words are on the page.
[nibble]
>I'm wondering, is that the mark of an immature writer?
I hope not, because I use the same effects.
The secret is to not use them to excess.
>Should I be able to get the same effects via the traditional looking writing?
>Like, big ol' paragraphs and hardly any funky punctuation?
I say use a mix. Avoid using lots and lots of big ol' paragraphs, as
they tend to look stuffed and cluttered, with the ideas getting lost.
Funky puncutation is legal as long as you use it properly.
Funky puncutation is effective, if used not to excess.
>Or, is it a style that is valid?
>(I mean, I feel it's valid and I'm not gonna change my voice just cuz it
>reveals me as the immature writer I am...but, I'm curious to know what y'all
>think.)
I say it's valid if you use it effectively.
I thought the examples you gave (which I snipped to the God of
Bandwidth) were effective.
Just don't overdo it.
___________
Heidi