(KY) [Louisville] 8664 Updates
Kut Korner Rogers
The "Imagine Portland, KY Presentation" is on-line at 8664. The audio
slide show showcases a historical image of I-64's construction, along
with a comparison between Portland, OR and Portland, KY (a
neighbourhood of Louisville).
Additional links and resources have been added. Take the time to become
informed about this project that will not only revitalise more of the
riverfront, but take through traffic away from the riverfront and onto
the bypass - where it should be!
This will also greatly compliment Museum Plaza, a 60+ story skyscraper
planned for the west end of Louisville. Selective demolition on several
structures begins Monday with construction on Museum Plaza possibly
beginning next year.
http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33060
8664 Supporter!
Sherman Cahal | http://www.abandonedonline.com/seicer
American Byways | http://www.americanbyways.com
Bridges & Tunnels | http://www.bridgestunnels.com
Abandoned | http://www.abandonedonline.com
@Flickr | http://www.flickr.com/photos/seicer
@MySpace | http://www.myspace.com/seicer
Aaron M. Renn
> This will also greatly compliment Museum Plaza, a 60+ story skyscraper
> planned for the west end of Louisville. Selective demolition on several
> structures begins Monday with construction on Museum Plaza possibly
> beginning next year.
Has Museum Plaza actually confirmed the private funding needed to move
forward? I've never been able to determine this.
--
Aaron M. Renn (ar...@urbanophile.com) http://www.urbanophile.com/arenn/
Sherman L. Cahal
> On 2006-12-07, Kut Korner Rogers <sherma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This will also greatly compliment Museum Plaza, a 60+ story skyscraper
> > planned for the west end of Louisville. Selective demolition on several
> > structures begins Monday with construction on Museum Plaza possibly
> > beginning next year.
>
> Has Museum Plaza actually confirmed the private funding needed to move
> forward? I've never been able to determine this.
"Museum Plaza, a 61-story skyscraper to be built on Seventh Street
between River Road and Main Street, will feature a 300-room hotel,
condominiums, lofts and an art museum.
The project, announced last year, is projected to cost $380 million and
will mostly be covered by private funds. The city and state will be
asked to contribute $75 million in rebated taxes generated at Museum
Plaza over 20 years.
The development team - Greenberg, Laura Lee Brown, her husband, Steve
Wilson and Steve Poe - plan "major announcements" on the
project's future in the next 90 days, Greenberg said."
I'm assuming that the next major announcement will be funding. The city
is essentially covering the cost of the selective demolition - which
would have been home to Vencor Corporation (another really nice
building that was never built).
>From another article,
"While the financing plan has not changed -- more than three-fourths of
the cost will be privately funded -- the public investment will be
greater.
The project's four partners -- Greenberg, arts patrons Laura Lee Brown
and her husband, Steve Wilson, and Louisville developer Steve Poe --
are contributing an undisclosed amount of money. They have already
spent more than $6 million in the development phase.
Other revenues from condominium sales, museum donations and office
leases will help pay the debt on the project's construction.
Both Louisville Mayor Jerry Abramson and Kentucky Gov. Ernie Fletcher
have given their support to the financing deal, although the developers
say they will work with local and state leaders to finalize the plan."
It looks like that funding will be available - they just need to say
the magic words, I suppose.
Jake Brzeskiewicz
between I-64 and demolished stub-end/redundant freeways in Portland,
San Francisco, New York & Milwaukee. Removing I-64 will be completely
unlike those projects. I-64 actually goes somewhere and has got to be
very useful for cross-town traffic, not just cross-country traffic.
This isn't some dead-end spur of a much larger, killed project. This
is a case of apples and oranges.
And as a resident of Milwaukee, I can see how well the space once
occupied by the Park East spur has sprung to life with vacant lots and
piles of dirt in the three plus years since it's demolition. They
don't even let people park there during Bucks games anymore.
Maybe I'm just impatient, though. I'm sure it'll be a beneficial move
in the long run.
Sherman L. Cahal
> I find it interesting how this organization is trying to draw parallels
> between I-64 and demolished stub-end/redundant freeways in Portland,
> San Francisco, New York & Milwaukee. Removing I-64 will be completely
> unlike those projects. I-64 actually goes somewhere and has got to be
> very useful for cross-town traffic, not just cross-country traffic.
> This isn't some dead-end spur of a much larger, killed project. This
> is a case of apples and oranges.
You are incorrect on that Interstate 64 in downtown Louisville does
"go" somewhere important. It has two interchanges, one of which is a
towering flyover. Both of these interchanges would not be necessary
with a new off-ramp in the 8664 plan to River Road which does not carry
a substantial amount of traffic currently - and has room to hold much
more.
As for your "cross-traffic" assertation, Interstate 265 would relieve
that immediately. Take a look at 8664's maps - Interstate 64 would be
routed onto Interstate 265 via an East End Bridge.
It's not "apples and oranges" - both a very similar projects.
Aaron M. Renn
> You are incorrect on that Interstate 64 in downtown Louisville does
> "go" somewhere important. It has two interchanges, one of which is a
> towering flyover. Both of these interchanges would not be necessary
> with a new off-ramp in the 8664 plan to River Road which does not carry
> a substantial amount of traffic currently - and has room to hold much
> more.
I think the poster is trying to draw a distinction between demolishing a
through route and demolishing a spur. How many of those torn down freeways
were actually through routes?
BTW: The 8664 video is direct in its advocation that Portland be gentrified.
While the narrator salivates over coffee shops and condos, perhaps it might
be asked what will happen to the working class residents of Portland if the
narrator gets his way?
Sherman L. Cahal
Are you against the improvement of historic neighborhoods that border
downtown? Are you not aware that adjacent to this neighborhood will be
a 62-story tower that will appeal to the "non-working class" members of
society (your terms)? Louisville needs to move up and if you have been
in the Portland neighborhood, you can see that it is struggling. There
are a few bright spots, such as the renovations to the Portland Marine
Hospital and a few home renovations here and there, but much more needs
to be done. It has an industrial district that is derelict and
forbidding even in the day. As what other cities like Portland,
Seattle, New York City, etc. have demonstrated is that these would make
perfect homes, offices and retail - that keep the citizens in the city
and not in the suburbs.
Advocate for smart, dense growth, not for suburban cookie-cutter
housing and big-box stores. That's what 8664 is partially about - that
and reopening the riverfront for all, not just those passing through
the town.
As what one of the original planners of the interstate highway system
stated after he pushed for the interstates to go *through* Louisville,
it was one of the worst ideas he ever pushed for.
Perhaps you don't see it that way, but gentficiation keeps the citizens
in, keeps land values high, and increases tax revenues.
Craig Holl
I think you missed his distinction between *cross-town* and *cross-country*.
You absolutely correct that cross-country travellers will be able to take
I-265 and the new East End Bridge and not be impacted. But the cross-town
traffic will be significantly impacted. I'm sure there are plenty of trips
that go from the west side (let's say 26th and Bank) to the east side (let's
say the Southern Baptist Seminary). Those people will be plenty impacted by
the missing section of freeway. They're not heading downtown; they just
need to go through downtown. That's why 8664 does not compare to the
freeway spur demolitions like in Milwaukee. If you were going to use that
spur, your origin or destination was in downtown. No one driving from
southern Milwaukee to northern Milwaukee are impacted whatsoever. But in
8664's case, people wanting just to drive east-west through downtown will be
impacted significantly.
In other words, if you were on the demolished freeway spur in Milwaukee, you
were without a doubt LOCAL traffic. But you cannot say that about 64, even
if you take all the cross-country through traffic off of it. There is still
a good chunk of traffic on 64 that just wants to get through downtown, but
shouldn't take I-265 or I-264 because it is out of the way.
--
Craig Holl
Mechanical Engineer
New Berlin, WI
*Remove numbers and caps to reply*
Sherman L. Cahal
With through traffic rerouted onto what is now I-265, traffic needing
to get 'through' downtown from one side to another could take a
reconstructed River Road. The proposal calls for a boulevard along the
riverfront. I'll explain:
* River Road already exists along the river northeast of downtown and
is being expanded from two to four-lanes. It parallels a very popular
park and offers expanse areas for parking and recreational
opportunities where none once existed.
* River Road already exists under the riverfront expressway in many
places - it just winds under the pillars and is really quite unsafe. My
drives on this segment have not been pleasant. The freeway also acts as
a large barrier between downtown and riverfront, where parts are
undergoing revitalisation with the inclusion of new features and
attractions and extensions.
* River Road and other nearby streets will be reconstructed in
anticipation of the Museum Plaza project.
In essence, once the freeway is torn down, most of the components for
an east-west boulevard that could handle the traffic volumes will be in
place. The segment of River Road under the freeway would obviously need
to be rebuilt, but the infrastructure is there but could use improving.
With the Interstate 64 viaduct aging and needing major rehabilitation,
along with the Spaghetti Junction interchange reconstruction, the
cost-to-benefit ratio warrants additional investigations.
Deconstruction of the expressway would allow for a simpler interchange
design between Interstate 65, 71, and 364. The monetary differences
would allow the construction of a four or six-lane boulevard along
Louisville's waterfront that could handle the anticipated traffic from
the new Arena that will be constructed near Papa John's Stadium.
It's not as if no ramps will connect with the downtown - that's not the
case at all. Ramps will feed from the Spaghetti Junction to River Road
and offer a more definite and reachable exit than the myriad of ramps
and entrances that dot the expressway today.
Craig Holl
> With through traffic rerouted onto what is now I-265, traffic needing
> to get 'through' downtown from one side to another could take a
> reconstructed River Road.
Yes, but it won't be as fast or convenient. It will have traffic lights and
add delays to those trips.
> It's not as if no ramps will connect with the downtown - that's not
> the case at all. Ramps will feed from the Spaghetti Junction to River
> Road and offer a more definite and reachable exit than the myriad of
> ramps and entrances that dot the expressway today.
Jake and I aren't talking about ramps to downtown. We're not talking about
people who are coming and going downtown. Those people will be served just
fine by River Road. We're talking about *intra-city* traffic that DOESN'T
need or want to stop downtown. They're the ones who won't be served well by
River Road. Freeways aren't just for suburbanites and cross-country
traffic. City dwellers like to use them too.
Sherman L. Cahal
The city isn't that large that it would be hampered by demolishing a
six-lane freeway. As such, there isn't that much reason to go from one
side or the other in a speedy manner in about a span of 15 blocks.
Adding well-timed lights and a well constructed roadway and that span
could be driven in approximately five minutes or a little more - not a
huge loss.
Revive755
Lights "well-timed" for traffic flow do not work well with pedestrians,
nor does any busy surface street. If the elevated route is hated so
much, than the locals can save up and have their own version of the Big
Dig. Substituting an at grade street for a freeway is only changing
the type of barrier, not removing it.
Sherman L. Cahal
It would work well if traffic does not need to continuously stop for
every traffic light. Traffic calming devices work well on these types
of highways, similar to NY 9A on the West Side of NYC.
A "Big Dig" project is not necessary. It currently handles a lot of
traffic, but most would be diverted to I-265 if the 8664 project comes
to light.
Aaron M. Renn
>> BTW: The 8664 video is direct in its advocation that Portland be gentrified.
>> While the narrator salivates over coffee shops and condos, perhaps it might
>> be asked what will happen to the working class residents of Portland if the
>> narrator gets his way?
>
> Are you against the improvement of historic neighborhoods that border
> downtown? Are you not aware that adjacent to this neighborhood will be
> a 62-story tower that will appeal to the "non-working class" members of
> society (your terms)? Louisville needs to move up and if you have been
> in the Portland neighborhood, you can see that it is struggling. There
> are a few bright spots, such as the renovations to the Portland Marine
> Hospital and a few home renovations here and there, but much more needs
> to be done.
That depends on whether the "improvement" refers to displacing the poor
and working class in order to turn their dwellings over to yuppies. It
seems you like the neighborhood, just not the neighbors.
The rationale of some 8664 advocates is more than a bit selfish. I'm
talking about the "Hey, I'm a hip, educated young guy - just the sort of
person Louisville says it wants to attract, so if you don't turn city policy
over to producing playgrounds for me, I might just move back to New York"
kind of guys.
Neighborhood change is inevitable. I live in a gentrified neighborhood myself,
so I can't complain too much I guess. I just find it a bit interesting that
8664 is so unabashedly pro-gentrification. I wonder if all the urban
sophisticates pushing it have ever seen real thriving working class
neighborhoods in places like Chicago. There's a lot more to neighborhood
improvement that loft conversions and coffee shops.
> Advocate for smart, dense growth, not for suburban cookie-cutter
> housing and big-box stores. That's what 8664 is partially about - that
> and reopening the riverfront for all, not just those passing through
> the town.
I'm sorry, but converting warehouses into lofts is so cookie cutter its
cliche these days. Lofts and Starbucks are the urban equivalent of
strip malls and subdivisions.
> As what one of the original planners of the interstate highway system
> stated after he pushed for the interstates to go *through* Louisville,
> it was one of the worst ideas he ever pushed for.
That's hardly a ringing endorsement. "Hey, I messed it up once, but this
time I've got it for sure." This is all too typical of the planning
community. The same ones who brought us the horrors of urban renewal,
public housing, etc, are now touting new solutions they brand as "this
time, for sure". I'd rather put my faith in the people than the
commissariat.
Also, ask smaller cities like Lexington and Ft. Wayne, Indiana if they are
happy there is no direct interstate access to downtown. I think you'd
get a different answer. Lack of a downtown freeway has not turned central
Ft. Wayne into loft central. The 8664 project is actually about only
removing a fairly short segment of I-64, retaining most of the freeway
access to central Louisville. If I-64 had never been built, the exodus
from the cith would have been even faster.
> Perhaps you don't see it that way, but gentficiation keeps the citizens
> in, keeps land values high, and increases tax revenues.
Only if your definitely of "citizens" is limited to the wealthy and upper
middle class.
I sound like a critic here, but actually, I'm sympathetic to the 8664
concept and think it deserves open study and consideration. The section of the
riverfront expressway in Louisville definitely cuts the city off from the
river. I don't think this was a planning "mistake" nearly so much as a
decision based on a view of the river as primarily industrial. In that
regard, a barrier could be a good thing. Remember all those rail terminals
and the like down there? In a sense, the idea to turn the riverfront into
an urban playground is a recognition of Louisville's manufacturing
decline, and the decline of importance of the river generally. But people
50 years ago couldn't make decisions based on speculation about what
radical changes might happen decades down the road. It's easy to Monday
morning quarterback, but planners back then were just doing what
conventional wisdom said. And 8664 is nothing more than conventional
wisdom among planners today in many regards. Name a city on a river that
isn't trying to "reconnect the city to the river", build waterfront parks,
etc. Another 50 years and we might think 8664 was a huge mistake too.
Still, I've often complained that Americans have lost the can-do spirit
and are more willing to find reasons not to do things than they are to just
do them. In that regard, it's good to see a lot of people ready to plop
down all their chips on Red 14. 8664 is a gamble. It could have a huge
payoff or it could flop. Chances are it will have consequences none of
us can forsee.
Louisville is actually doing a pretty good job in the bold plan department.
The bridges project, 8664, Museum Plaza, and the suburban parks initiative
are all big moves. Most regional cities aren't that ambitious. But I
think a lot of the leadership motivation is around a poor vision for
Louisville. Namely, people want to turn Louisville into a "world class city",
and in that regard try to copy the trappings of big urban areas. But
Louisville is not a big urban area. It's significantly smaller than other
regional cities like Indy and Cincinnati, so say nothing of real big cities.
It also is surrounded by emptiness and so can't draw on an extended
population base, has low educational attainment, etc. Can Louisville outgun
other cities in the downtown development game? Maybe, but I don't think
the odds are good.
But there's another way Louisville could be world class. Not all world
class cities are big metropolises. Some of them are medium sized jewels.
I'm thinking about places like Geneva, Switzerland. I believe this is the
model Louisville should be following. It's size lends itself well to
that, and Louisville has a unique set of assets - its neighborhoods - that
many other competitors don't. To me the real heart of Louisville is not
its downtown, but its neighborhoods. As much as I'm a fan of the Museum
Plaza project, Louisville would be much better off investing in neighborhoods
than in beefing up its skyline or building arenas. This would include
things like removing overhead power lines, improved sewage/drainage,
upgraded roadways and sidewalks, environmental cleanup, public safety,
quality in everything the city does, with projects rooted deep in the
history and culture of the community. If I had the magic formula for
bringing back a lot of struggling city neighborhoods sans gentrification,
I'd be a rich man. But this is in my view the task Louisville should set
itself to.
Sherman L. Cahal
> http://www.8664.org/
Found the quote that was from my old transportation web-site,
"Interstate Highway System", a free publication from the state highway
department.
Henry Ward, a member of the Louisville Chamber of Commerce in 1958,
lobbied in Frankfort to Highway Commissioner Ward Oates to have
Interstate 65 (and other interstates) routed through downtown
Louisville. At that time, Henry Ward, who would later become the state
Highway Commissioner from 1960 to 1967, stated that "downtown
Louisville felt it would be disastrous for it to be bypassed by the
interstate." There was tremendous pressure from both sides to push the
interstate highway system through downtown. Later on in 1996, he
reflected back and stated that, "... it was a mistake. I think downtown
Louisville would have been better off if Interstate 65 had not been
located where it is."
http://www.8664.org/research.htm
First entry.
Revive755
And then how long must a pedestrian wait if most of the cycle time for
the signals is devoted for the east-west movement? And how many new
pedestrian-vehicle crashes will occur from pedestrians improperly
crossing the new at-grade street?
> A "Big Dig" project is not necessary. It currently handles a lot of
> traffic, but most would be diverted to I-265 if the 8664 project comes
> to light.
There seems to be a lot of traffic that would not use an I-265 bypass.
INDOT's traffic data has I-64's AADT growing from the upper 10,000's in
Indiana. Kentucky's data has an AADT on I-64 in the 50,000's east of
I-265, while in the downtown area I-64's AADT's climb into the low
100,000's.
Aaron M. Renn
>> It would work well if traffic does not need to continuously stop for
>> every traffic light. Traffic calming devices work well on these types
>> of highways, similar to NY 9A on the West Side of NYC.
>
> And then how long must a pedestrian wait if most of the cycle time for
> the signals is devoted for the east-west movement? And how many new
> pedestrian-vehicle crashes will occur from pedestrians improperly
> crossing the new at-grade street?
There would probably be protected, grade separated pedestrian crossings.
Pedestrians seem to manage crossing Lake Short Drive in Chicago.
>> A "Big Dig" project is not necessary. It currently handles a lot of
>> traffic, but most would be diverted to I-265 if the 8664 project comes
>> to light.
>
> There seems to be a lot of traffic that would not use an I-265 bypass.
> INDOT's traffic data has I-64's AADT growing from the upper 10,000's in
> Indiana. Kentucky's data has an AADT on I-64 in the 50,000's east of
> I-265, while in the downtown area I-64's AADT's climb into the low
> 100,000's.
All those East Enders heading to Caesers......