No more international trains to Greece ?
Marc Van Dyck
This is the official web site of the greek railways company. If I
understood well what is stated in there, all international services to
and from Greece are suspended until further notice, as of January 1st,
2011.
Basically, the main line between Athens and Thessaloniki remains, as
well as the newly rebuilt lines around Athens, but everything else
shuts
down. Quite sad if this is true…
--
Marc Van Dyck
Nick Fotis
Actions in the road to the reorganization of TRAINOSE S.A.
Athens, 23 December 2010
TRAINOSE S.A., since 2007 separate from OSE as a train operator, has an
operating deficit of approximately 230 million Euros, and as a
consequence at the end of 2009 it has accumulated a deficit of 700
million Euros and no capital. The TRAINOSE directors immediately after
their appointment in April 2010, with the help of the Ministry for
Transport etc, started a hard effort of reorganization and consolidation
of the company economics, plus of the improvement of the provided services.
The major lines of this effort are shown below:
- In May 2010, the toll-free phone line of 1110 has started again
operation, this time without a contractor but using existing personnel,
leading to a cost reduction of 1.5 million Euros per year.
- In June of the same year, the secondary remuneration policy has
changed, and combined with the austerity measures of the Ministry of
Finance, the monthly cost of wages has been reduced by 2 million Euros
- In this month also, there was a move from the old HQ into the OSE
building (Karolou st.), reducing the rental and operating costs by 800
thousand Euros/year
- In August 2010, the executive council has agreed to the new tariff
policy of TRAINOSE in freight transport, which removed the excess
discounts and exemptions, in the meantime targeting the use of full
trains in order to raise the company income and to reduce the running
costs by 2 million Euros per month
- In the continual process of searching for new and attractive train
services, in August new routes entered the timetable, as the “Aghios
Andreas – Pátra – Rio”, while in contrast very unprofitable routes like
“Amýntaio-Kozáni” got cancelled. In parallel, some provocatively low
tariffs were reorganized (like the Pélion train), with the total gains
for TRAINOSE surpassing 150 thousand Euros per month.
- In December 2010, after a long delay, there was a launch of the
electrified suburban line Liosia - Kiato, which means except that the
final upgrade of the suburban railway (which connects in 86 minutes
Kiato and the Airport with a single route). This translates to
significantly reduced energy costs and maintenance costs of rolling
stock in the network.
- Finally, recently the official website of TRAINOSE,
http://www.trainose.gr became fully operational, which enables the
web-ticketing, thus significantly improving the service ticketing and
reducing staffing requirements.
Of course, maximum contribution to the overall project of consolidation
TRAINOSE, is given by the Law 3891/2010 "Restructuring, consolidation
and development of Railway Group and TRAINOSE and other provisions for
the railway sector", adopted last October in the House of
representatives, which provides funding for Public Service Obligations,
for passenger traffic, up to 50 million Euros per year and removal of
751 employees.
These actions on an annual basis are estimated to save the company
resources, which will cover about 75% of the deficit. According,
however, with EU Directives and the Law 3891/2010, the TRAINOSE should
be sustainable in 2011. In this effort, therefore, in order to save the
remaining 55 million of the annual deficit, the Board of the TRAINOSE
adopted a balanced and realistic business plan, which provides for the
restructuring of extremely damaging routes and increasing ticket prices
at competitive routes which so far remained very low. In the
implementation of the business plan, the administration of TRAINOSE
announced that in the new year from January 1, 2011, temporarily will
suspend unprofitable routes of Western Macedonia, the Peloponnese, as
well as international routes. Also, ticket prices will fluctuate at
competitive levels with other land transport for the common trains.
The TRAINOSE intends in the next quarter to introduce new network
services, which will be harmonized with the needs of the traveling
public. Main points of this action is:
- The strengthening of the railway traffic with additional road that
will feed the train stations of major cities. For the first time, cities
such Giannitsa, Ioannina and Grevena will be connected with TRAINOSE
buses to the train stations in Plati and Kalambaka. Also, Kalamata and
Tripoli will connect by bus to the Kórinthos station and the Suburban
Railway tapping more effectively the existing road and rail infrastructure.
- Direct access to Central Greece and Thessaly to Athens International
Airport, which will ensure a simple transfer to Railway Centre Acharnon
(SKA), where all trains of the Athens - Thessaloniki route will now stop
and respond to the suburban trains.
- The link of the train to the port of Piraeus in the summer of 2011 and
the response to maritime transport, connecting the islands of the
Cyclades and Crete, the Northern and Central Greece.
- Finally, all temporarily suspended routes will be systematically
evaluated and there will be examination of actions that will turn the
loss-making routes to sustainable or find additional resources in order
to rejoin the network. Such actions would include developing
theme-oriented train passenger in target groups (eg school trips to
Nafplio and Florina) and tourist routes as a religious and cultural
destinations. Resources will also be sought from municipalities, regions
and major industries operating in areas with the suspended services
The TRAINOSE believes that having achieved to become viable with the
upgraded capabilities provided by the Law 3891/2010, a gradual and
planned growth by mid-2011 will go to profitability becoming the
transportation choice of the Greek citizens. In this context are
announced the following changes in routeing and pricing policy, which
will apply from 1 January 2011:
Temporary Suspension - Stop traffic on these routes until further notice:
- Athens-Alexandroupolis - Athens
- Thessaloniki - Florina - Thessaloniki
- Larissa - Kalambaka - Larissa
- Patra - Pyrgos - Kalamata – Patra
- Kalamata - Messini – Technical school - Kalamata
- Korinthos - Tripolis - Nafplion - Corinth
- Thessaloniki - Skopje - Beograd - Thessaloniki
- Thessaloniki - Sofia - Bucharest - Thessaloniki
- Thessaloniki - Istanbul - Thessaloniki
Changes in the Timetable Grid:
- The rapid trains are upgraded to IC and halts at stops with little
traffic are removed.
IC Express (ICE) trains in route Athens - Thessaloniki will stop at
Platy and SKA, the total journey time lasts 4 hours and 50 minutes.
- Will put into service two (2) pairs of trains Thessaloniki – Dikaia –
Thessaloniki.
- Simplified stopping and responses on all routes.
Bus routes (proposed and where demand exists):
- Athens - Corinth (connection with Proastiakós)-Tripoli - Kalamata -
Athens (without any stops)
- Platy - Giannitsa - Alexandria-Wide (response to IC and IC Express)
- Kalambaka - Grevena - Ioannina - Kalambaka (Indirect Kalambaka)
- Lamia - Karpenisi - Lamia (in response to all trains stopping at
Lianokladi)
Pricing policy
- The price of ordinary trains will have competitive prices to the
respective bus routes. For example the price on the route from
Thessaloniki, Kalambaka from 8.90 Euros goes to 15 euros when the price
for the relevant bus route is 17 euros. The Athens-Thessaloniki route
will be configured similarly to 39 euros by bus.
- The prices of the Inter City trains will vary depending on the
competitiveness of the line. For example the price on the route Athens -
Thessaloniki, with Inter City from 36.30 euro goes to 55.20 euros and
travel time of less than 5 hours.
It is stressed that the intention of TRAINOSE is to implement soon a
revenue management system (yield management) that provides discounts to
passengers who reserve tickets in advance (eg 20% discount for 3 days
pre-sale) and help in better utilization of rolling stock. Customers who
use often the train through the e-ticket and do will not burden the
company with the cost of issuing the ticket. This program will provide
an opportunity for passengers TRAINOSE help keep operating costs low to
travel with tickets still below the current one.
==========
Still shell-shocked,
N.F.
Theo Markettos
> Temporary Suspension - Stop traffic on these routes until further notice:
>
> - Athens-Alexandroupolis - Athens
These appear to be service cuts, rather than line cuts. Alexandroupolis is
still served by Thessaloniki-Dikaia services. It's just a cut of direct
trains from Athens. That presumably means all Greek sleeper services are
cut too. I can sort-of see why, though... a train leaving Athens at a
sensible time gets into Alexandroupolis at a very quiet time of day, and
vice-versa.
> - Thessaloniki - Florina - Thessaloniki
I don't know too much about this one.
> - Patra - Pyrgos - Kalamata – Patra
> - Korinthos - Tripolis - Nafplion - Corinth
That means the whole of the metre gauge network is gone (presumably
Patra-Kiato is still closed for conversion to standard gauge?). Is the line
from Kalamata to Tripoli still 'temporarily suspended' (suspension 5 years
or more)?
> - Kalamata - Messini – Technical school - Kalamata
That's a fairly recent reopening, too.
> - Thessaloniki - Skopje - Beograd - Thessaloniki
> - Thessaloniki - Sofia - Bucharest - Thessaloniki
> - Thessaloniki - Istanbul - Thessaloniki
Ouch. All seem to have been developing well in recent years. I bet that'll
make them popular with their neighbours.
> Changes in the Timetable Grid:
>
> - The rapid trains are upgraded to IC and halts at stops with little
> traffic are removed.
Has the mainline doubling through Bralos etc finished yet? Quite a few of
these wayside stops were for passing loop purposes.
> IC Express (ICE) trains in route Athens - Thessaloniki will stop at
> Platy and SKA, the total journey time lasts 4 hours and 50 minutes.
Platy is a rather curious place to stop your premier trains at, particularly
given the cuts to services in western Macedonia. Or does a significant
proportion of traffic come from the Larisa-Thessaloniki hinterland?
> - Will put into service two (2) pairs of trains Thessaloniki – Dikaia –
> Thessaloniki.
> - Simplified stopping and responses on all routes.
Probably sensible, though the devil is in the detail.
> Bus routes (proposed and where demand exists):
>
> - Athens - Corinth (connection with Proastiakós)-Tripoli - Kalamata -
> Athens (without any stops)
Does this really improve anything against the KTEL buses?
> - Platy - Giannitsa - Alexandria-Wide (response to IC and IC Express)
> - Kalambaka - Grevena - Ioannina - Kalambaka (Indirect Kalambaka)
So Kalambaka-Palaeofarsalos-Athens trains will continue, but the service
Larisa-Kalambaka reversing at Palaeofarsalos won't. I wonder if the timing
will be changed to make this a sensible connection? (I doubt it)
> - Lamia - Karpenisi - Lamia (in response to all trains stopping at
> Lianokladi)
Lamia has always been an odd one... a relatively major city served by 1/2
trains a day. Or do the local buses provide a good service to Lianokladi?
Surely a Lianokladi-Lamia-Stylida shuttle wouldn't be too hard to arrange?
> Pricing policy
[snip]
Sounds sensible from a western Europe perspective. Particularly if the
train becomes an attractive alternative to the bus (challenging, given the
infrastructure). Though I suspect this is hardly the best time to impose
fare increases on Greeks.
If I were to suggest another cost-cutting measure, it would be to run
different trains on Saturdays and Sundays to weekdays. OSE doesn't really
seem to target its trains very well: it just runs some trains, and some are
convenient for (eg) office workers but many aren't. Unsurprisingly those
that aren't are usually quite empty. I realise the large quantity of single
line makes this difficult to juggle, but some degree of
demand-responsiveness might be a start.
> Still shell-shocked,
Indeed. Thanks for the translation.
Theo
Marc Van Dyck
>> - Thessaloniki - Skopje - Beograd - Thessaloniki
>> - Thessaloniki - Sofia - Bucharest - Thessaloniki
>> - Thessaloniki - Istanbul - Thessaloniki
>
> Ouch. All seem to have been developing well in recent years. I bet that'll
> make them popular with their neighbours.
>
Well, said neighbours can always continue the service by themselves
in "open access" mode, if they whish so... I personally hope they will
!
--
Marc Van Dyck
Willms
<nick....@gmail.com> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> - In May 2010, the toll-free phone line of 1110 has started again
> operation, this time without a contractor but using existing personnel,
> leading to a cost reduction of 1.5 million Euros per year.
Interesting admission that outsourcing is more expensive than D-I-Y.
Cheers,
L.W.
Marc Van Dyck
Yes and no. There are indeed lots of cases where DIY is less expensive
than outsourcing. In the domain where I work, we frequently use
contractors at ~600€/day, and you will never make me believe that this
can be cheaper than internal people paid 4000€/month. But it brings
more flexibility: contractors can be sent home with one month notice,
sometimes even less, while laying off employees can cost you one year
of salary or even more. It is the same when entire organizations like
call centers are outsourced. The volume of the workforce can be adapted
almost instantly if needed. Flexibility also has a price...
On the other hand, I suspect that in this case, the cost reduction they
obtained by insourcing their call center has been obtained by manning
it
with people who were already on the state payroll, who could not be
laid off because they have civil servant status, and who where
presently
with no occupation at all.
--
Marc Van Dyck
Nick Fotis
> Nick Fotis<nick....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Temporary Suspension - Stop traffic on these routes until further notice:
>>
>> - Athens-Alexandroupolis - Athens
>> - Larissa - Kalambaka - Larissa
>
> These appear to be service cuts, rather than line cuts. Alexandroupolis is
> still served by Thessaloniki-Dikaia services. It's just a cut of direct
> trains from Athens. That presumably means all Greek sleeper services are
> cut too. I can sort-of see why, though... a train leaving Athens at a
> sensible time gets into Alexandroupolis at a very quiet time of day, and
> vice-versa.
Geography and track speed is a problem in northern Greece.
The tracks make a big detour via Kilkis and Serres, so people traveling
to eastern Macedonia and Thrace can travel much faster with the direct
motorway.
When the people from eastern Macedonia and Thrace wanted to travel to
southern Greece, the faster route towards Athens tends to balance
things, compared to KTEL buses.
Note that the sleeper trains 504/505 run only between Thessaloniki-Athens.
>> - Thessaloniki - Florina - Thessaloniki
>
> I don't know too much about this one.
It is in western Macedonia region of Greece, extending beyond Edessa.
Very useful route for access to Thessaloniki, and pretty popular service
(4 train pairs per day, if I remember correctly, continued beyond Edessa
to Florina)
(the Kozani branch is not competitive at all with the new Egnatia
motorway that runs straight to Thessaloniki)
>> - Patra - Pyrgos - Kalamata – Patra
>> - Korinthos - Tripolis - Nafplion - Corinth
>
> That means the whole of the metre gauge network is gone (presumably
> Patra-Kiato is still closed for conversion to standard gauge?). Is the line
> from Kalamata to Tripoli still 'temporarily suspended' (suspension 5 years
> or more)?
The Tripolis-Korinthos line has already been closed after a derailment
that killed one passenger two weeks ago
(very convenient, the cynic in me will say)
The Tripolis-Zevgolatio segment never saw regular passenger trains after
a slooooow and costly track rebuilding (which has been completed a year
ago).
>> - Kalamata - Messini – Technical school - Kalamata
>
> That's a fairly recent reopening, too.
Yes, and very popular with passengers, running more than 700 passengers
per day, according to sources.
>> - Thessaloniki - Skopje - Beograd - Thessaloniki
>> - Thessaloniki - Sofia - Bucharest - Thessaloniki
>> - Thessaloniki - Istanbul - Thessaloniki
>
> Ouch. All seem to have been developing well in recent years. I bet that'll
> make them popular with their neighbours.
Sure...
And they cannot run into Greece
(no train operator licensed, no route knowledge, no Greek language
knowledge, etc.)
>> Changes in the Timetable Grid:
>>
>> - The rapid trains are upgraded to IC and halts at stops with little
>> traffic are removed.
>
> Has the mainline doubling through Bralos etc finished yet? Quite a few of
> these wayside stops were for passing loop purposes.
The new double track route will bypass Bralos... in 5+ years, if
everything goes well (doubtful).
In general, Athens-Thessaloniki tortuous upgrade is on the same class as
the British WCML fiasco: too much money, too little improvement, too late.
With the same money, a HSL route could have been built, with a much
bigger impact (now, the railroad in Greece has a modal share of 1.5%
approximately)
>> IC Express (ICE) trains in route Athens - Thessaloniki will stop at
>> Platy and SKA, the total journey time lasts 4 hours and 50 minutes.
>
> Platy is a rather curious place to stop your premier trains at, particularly
> given the cuts to services in western Macedonia. Or does a significant
> proportion of traffic come from the Larisa-Thessaloniki hinterland?
Platy is used as a junction to W.Macedonia, nearly 16 train pairs per
day ran to this region (after the Florina cuts it will be near ten of
these), so it is useful for northbound passengers to step down to Platy
and avoid going to Thessaloniki, then back again.
>> - Will put into service two (2) pairs of trains Thessaloniki – Dikaia –
>> Thessaloniki.
>> - Simplified stopping and responses on all routes.
>
> Probably sensible, though the devil is in the detail.
The new timetable is expected to start in the next 3 days, according to
the press release.
>> Bus routes (proposed and where demand exists):
>>
>> - Athens - Corinth (connection with Proastiakós)-Tripoli - Kalamata -
>> Athens (without any stops)
>
> Does this really improve anything against the KTEL buses?
Personally, I find ridiculous TRAINOSE to target bus use as a means to
feed the mainline route along already existing and rebuilt tracks.
And passengers will surely object to having to go from bus to train and
vice versa, especially if they carry baggages.
Add to this the ridiculous frequencies (two metre gauge trains per day
to Tripolis from Korinthos, when the KTEL bus leave directly from Athens
for Tripolis every hour, at worst)
>> - Platy - Giannitsa - Alexandria-Wide (response to IC and IC Express)
>> - Kalambaka - Grevena - Ioannina - Kalambaka (Indirect Kalambaka)
>
> So Kalambaka-Palaeofarsalos-Athens trains will continue, but the service
> Larisa-Kalambaka reversing at Palaeofarsalos won't. I wonder if the timing
> will be changed to make this a sensible connection? (I doubt it)
It seems only one train direct to Athens will stay (leaving Kalampaka
midday)
>> - Lamia - Karpenisi - Lamia (in response to all trains stopping at
>> Lianokladi)
>
> Lamia has always been an odd one... a relatively major city served by 1/2
> trains a day. Or do the local buses provide a good service to Lianokladi?
> Surely a Lianokladi-Lamia-Stylida shuttle wouldn't be too hard to arrange?
Karpenisi never had a rail service (or a connection), so this is a new one.
Lamia-Leianokladi are nearly touching, and because all trains (even IC)
stop in this point, frequency and passenger traffic is very good (nearly
the same as Larissa)
>> Pricing policy
> [snip]
>
> Sounds sensible from a western Europe perspective. Particularly if the
> train becomes an attractive alternative to the bus (challenging, given the
> infrastructure). Though I suspect this is hardly the best time to impose
> fare increases on Greeks.
Well, trains like 500/501 were extremely popular, being underpriced (20
Euros for 500 km at a 160 km/h train, which takes 5.5 hours with the
same rolling stock as IC trains is a steal, if you ask me).
And such trains 'cannibalized' costlier IC trains.
So, TRAINOSE seems to get rid of this train and making it an IC
(effectively more than doubling the price).
It seems that the rather popular night trains 504/505 will get axed as
well, and the direct trains from Athens to eastern Macedonia-Thrace.
N.F.
Nick Fotis
> Theo Markettos explained on 26/12/2010 :
>> that'll
>> make them popular with their neighbours.
>>
>
> Well, said neighbours can always continue the service by themselves
> in "open access" mode, if they whish so... I personally hope they will !
>
I very much doubt it.
TRAINOSE as an incumbent would not let neighbours to run into Greek rails
(and MZ/TCDD are not EU networks, so the 'open access' regime doesn't
work with them)
N.F.
Oliver Schnell
But when founding a Greek Company (similar to Easyjet Swizerland some years
ago which is still existing although not longer necessary as Switzerland
signed the corresponding EU-agreement) this in theory should work.
--
Oliver Schnell
Phil Richards
> Nick Fotis<nick....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> - Thessaloniki - Skopje - Beograd - Thessaloniki
>> - Thessaloniki - Sofia - Bucharest - Thessaloniki
>> - Thessaloniki - Istanbul - Thessaloniki
>
> Ouch. All seem to have been developing well in recent years. I bet that'll
> make them popular with their neighbours.
Would be interested to what the UIC has to say about this. Don't the
railways have run the the agreed timetable which surely they have
signed? The last change only took part a couple of weeks ago, probably
agreed many months. As it is purely a sudden commercial decision and not
just say a line closure due to infrastructure problems, I would say the
OSE is legally bound to operate the service...
--
Phil Richards, London, UK
Tadej Brezina
> I made a quick-and-dirty translation myself:
Nick, Theo, the other guys with detailed knowledge of greek transport:
What do you think, where does all that mess come from?
Extremely car oriented politics and investment on the one hand combined
with really bad decisions and management at OSE & Co. on the other hand?
regards
Tadej
--
"Das Seltene hat nur einen positiven Aspekt: Läßt man ihm genügend Zeit,
dann wird daraus etwas ziemlich Häufiges."
<Stephen Jay Gould in "Zufall Mensch">
--
(Laptop brezta2)
tim....
"Tadej Brezina" <tadej_...@gmx.at> wrote in message
news:4d1a37eb$0$1580$91ce...@newsreader04.highway.telekom.at...
> Nick Fotis schrieb:
>> I made a quick-and-dirty translation myself:
>> [...pitiful saga...]
>
> Nick, Theo, the other guys with detailed knowledge of greek transport:
> What do you think, where does all that mess come from?
It comes from the mega cuts that Greece have to make it their budget due to
the EU bail-out
tim
Tadej Brezina
Tim, yes of course!
But the "desaster of rail transport" in Greece has had a long growing
history ... following all kinds of reports regarding transport policy
decisions, procurement and line construction.
So they seem to quite have had a desaster in the making.
thinks
tim....
> tim.... schrieb:
>> "Tadej Brezina" <tadej_...@gmx.at> wrote in message
>> news:4d1a37eb$0$1580$91ce...@newsreader04.highway.telekom.at...
>>> Nick Fotis schrieb:
>>>> I made a quick-and-dirty translation myself:
>>>> [...pitiful saga...]
>>> Nick, Theo, the other guys with detailed knowledge of greek transport:
>>> What do you think, where does all that mess come from?
>>
>> It comes from the mega cuts that Greece have to make it their budget due
>> to the EU bail-out
>> tim
>
> Tim, yes of course!
> But the "desaster of rail transport" in Greece has had a long growing
> history ... following all kinds of reports regarding transport policy
> decisions, procurement and line construction.
> So they seem to quite have had a desaster in the making.
> thinks
Tis the Mediterranean way.
Italy used to be a similar disaster area.
tim
Giovanni Drogo
> Italy used to be a similar disaster area.
UseD ?
--
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Theo Markettos
> But the "desaster of rail transport" in Greece has had a long growing
> history ... following all kinds of reports regarding transport policy
> decisions, procurement and line construction.
> So they seem to quite have had a desaster in the making.
OSE's woes have become something of a poster child for the ailing Greek
economy...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/business/global/21rail.html
Just off the top of my head, some reasons:
1. Very low fares (in 2003, 800km Athens-Alexandroupoli was EUR28).
2. Staff as state employees, with early retirement and full pensions
3. Huge, bureaucratic, overrunning and politicised engineering projects
(largely funded by EU aid)
4. The Athens 2004 Olympics (see 3)
5. Railways being the transport choice only of the poor, and even the poor
would prefer the bus
6. Slow, meandering services (especially on the old network), poorly timed,
infrequent, unattractive
7. Poor ticketing infrastructure (eg advance booking only possible in person
[I think]). Almost zero use of the internet
8. Poor timetable dissemination
9. Lines shut for years at a time for works
10. Lack of input from local communities (people often complain about the
railway, and don't treat it as a benefit)
11. Keeping employees on the OSE books so they don't count as unemployed
and so on.
Theo
Phil Richards
> Tadej Brezina<tadej_...@gmx.at> wrote:
>> But the "desaster of rail transport" in Greece has had a long growing
>> history ... following all kinds of reports regarding transport policy
>> decisions, procurement and line construction.
>> So they seem to quite have had a desaster in the making.
>
> OSE's woes have become something of a poster child for the ailing Greek
> economy...
Let's face it, Greece is a complete embarrassment to the rest of Europe
and it is not just the railways that are in a mess.
> Just off the top of my head, some reasons:
>
> 1. Very low fares (in 2003, 800km Athens-Alexandroupoli was EUR28).
Yet InterRail passholders get clobbered for a HUGE supplement on "fast"
trains in Greece:
<http://www.interrailnet.com/interrail-special-trains#greece>
Making them some of the highest in Europe for what is definitely not a
high speed railway.
On the subject of InterRail, publicity for 2011 is ready to give out
with passes which include maps with border crossings that probably won't
have a service in a couple of days time. Again I ask are these last
minute decisions legal considering international timetables were agreed
many months ago effectively for most of 2011?
--
Phil Richards, London, UK
3,600+ railway photos since 1980 at:
http://europeanrail.fotopic.net
http://britishrail.fotopic.net
tim....
"Theo Markettos" <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:hJE*Yf...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
Those salary levels quoted are in fantasyland. Whatever possessed the
government to think that they were reasonable or necessary
tim
TimB
wrote:
Yes, useD, at least as far as the railways are concerned. Not amazing,
but certainly functional.
Tim
tim....
"TimB" <twbu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ec50949b-5ec5-48cb...@m11g2000vbs.googlegroups.com...
------------------------------------------------------------------
I assumed that he's comment meant "it still is"!
(But as I no knowledge of FS since it changed its name, I had nothing to
add)
tim
Giovanni Drogo
>>> Italy used to be a similar disaster area.
>>
>> UseD ?
> Yes, useD, at least as far as the railways are concerned. Not amazing,
> but certainly functional.
I guess several if not most travellers and/or commuters would not agree.
There are things which improved (the high speed trains, or the S-lines
around Milan) and other which were best in the past (international
services, connections between lines, station services like ticket
offices or left luggage), and other which remained poor.
Nick Fotis
> Nick Fotis schrieb:
>> I made a quick-and-dirty translation myself:
>> [...pitiful saga...]
>
> Nick, Theo, the other guys with detailed knowledge of greek transport:
> What do you think, where does all that mess come from?
> Extremely car oriented politics and investment on the one hand combined
> with really bad decisions and management at OSE & Co. on the other hand?
I discussed the same story with another correspondent in TR EU, and I
copy below my remarks (expanded a bit).
First, note that I do not know more details about the planned cuts, only
what was written in the official press release.
The railroad in Greece is simply irrelevant for the vast majority of
Greeks. The modal share of the railroad (both freight and passenger) is
around 1.5%, according to Eurostat, rather thanks to bad timings and low
frequency of trains.
Many billions of Euros were wasted right and left, and now the public is
fed up and saying 'close that brothel!'. After all, they compare the
cuts in pensions and wages in the public sector with the huge
accumulated deficits, and they are outraged.
And public is angered to hear about many railroaders with income over
50.000 Euros per year, in times of financial austerity for nearly
everybody (of course, newspapers conveniently forget to note that these
incomes are severely taxed...).
The railroaders, in my opinion, have a big part of the responsibility
for the situation, as their leaders were pushing for added income
(often masqueraded as additional overtime payments or various additional
benefits like 'milk benefit', 'additional payment for early arrival to
job' and other ridiculous titles).
And in a big company out of control, it is easy to arrange things so as
to get maximum pay for minimum work
(an hypothetical example: you get arranged to drive a 3 hour trip, then
you get a 4 hours gap in the timetable, then you drive back, getting 2
hours overtime pay, while you drove 6 hours total)
But the politicians and their parties were not innocent at all:
- there was lots of political parties involvement in the operation of
the railroad, relocation of personnel, extra benefits, etc.
- the government often changed the executives (usually not related to
business or transportations, and selected with political party criteria)
in the railroad companies, at least ever time we had general elections
(in the last decade, the executives got replaced nearly a dozen times,
with obvious bad results in leadership, or rather lack thereof)
- lots of money was wasted in projects, with brand-new stations that
never operated, or were constructed 500 meters after the old ones, etc.
No strategic planning at all (but that is to be expected when you change
CEOs and executive every year)
- routes were rebuilt slowly (like the metre gauge Kórinthos-Trípolis,
which took 6 years in repair, more than the time of original
construction 120 years ago!) with dozens of million Euros, only to be
closed just after the rebuilding
- widespread corruption at all levels of the OSE group, according to
rumours, with non-registered wagons being moved or scrapped, freight
moved at higly reduced prices, etc.
Seeing OSE group these years was like looking a huge derailment in very
slow motion.
The current situation with IMF, EU and ECB "troika" demanding waste cuts
and reforms, gave the perfect excuse to politicians to get rid of a big
part of the railroad system.
This was not the cause of the problem.
Of course, the political party rats will be the first ones who will
leave the sinking ship, to well-paid public servant jobs (or even as MPs)
TRAINOSE is the train operator (the incumbent one, like SNCF), which was
split from OSE 3 years ago.
OSE (and EDISY, the ex-network owner, which is now folded back into OSE
group) is the main shareholder of TRAINOSE (which was split in the past
from OSE).
OSE and TRAINOSE together have accumulated nearly 11 billion Euros of
deficit since 1999.
The story for the deficit, as I heard it:
When our country was preparing to enter the Eurozone, in order to reduce
(or 'beautify', if you prefer that term) the public debt, they decided
to force OSE to borrow money (with the guarantee of Greek state) for the
infrastructure projects, rolling stock purchases.
This was supposedly a temporary measure, but in Greece 'temporary
measures have a tendency to get a permanency of their own'
(OSE got a clean-up from accumulated deficits in 1999, and there was a
huge program of rebuilding the whole rail network in view of Athens
Olympics etc.)
Because OSE could never pay back the money they were forced to borrow,
the accumulated debt ballooned beyond any control (the Greek state did
not cover all these debts in time, as far as I can understand), and
nearly 30% of the 11 billion amount is accumulated interest.
I apologize if I sound angry, but no one is innocent in this story.
N.F.
Theo Markettos
> On 29/12/2010 23:35, Theo Markettos wrote:
> Let's face it, Greece is a complete embarrassment to the rest of Europe
> and it is not just the railways that are in a mess.
>
> > Just off the top of my head, some reasons:
> >
> > 1. Very low fares (in 2003, 800km Athens-Alexandroupoli was EUR28).
>
> Yet InterRail passholders get clobbered for a HUGE supplement on "fast"
> trains in Greece:
Actually, those are the same supplements that everyone else pays. A normal
2nd class ticket from Athens-Thessaloniki is EUR28. That's valid on a
non-IC/ICE train. On an ICE, which takes 4h30 not 6h, it's EUR48.
Passholders are getting the 'slow' train rate, and then supplements for
IC/ICE are extra.
Arguably passes are poor value in Eastern Europe, but the artifact you cite
is in fact due to the cheapness of slow trains and the heavy ramping up of
fares on faster trains. The fact of additional supplements for faster
trains is something of an issue across Europe (see eg SNCF).
> On the subject of InterRail, publicity for 2011 is ready to give out
> with passes which include maps with border crossings that probably won't
> have a service in a couple of days time. Again I ask are these last
> minute decisions legal considering international timetables were agreed
> many months ago effectively for most of 2011?
Perhaps not, but TRAINOSE can be taken to the European court and will point
at the EU/IMF/etc and shrug its shoulders. Even if they get fined, nobody
wins.
Theo
Phil Richards
> Phil Richards<philri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Arguably passes are poor value in Eastern Europe, but the artifact you cite
> is in fact due to the cheapness of slow trains and the heavy ramping up of
> fares on faster trains. The fact of additional supplements for faster
> trains is something of an issue across Europe (see eg SNCF).
Some supplements are quite high, e.g. Eurostar & Thalys. In Germany for
example there are tariff differences for "normal" fares between local &
ICE services which are not passed on to those on InterRail etc. And in
those cases the time saving difference is more significant than in Greece.
>> On the subject of InterRail, publicity for 2011 is ready to give out
>> with passes which include maps with border crossings that probably won't
>> have a service in a couple of days time. Again I ask are these last
>> minute decisions legal considering international timetables were agreed
>> many months ago effectively for most of 2011?
>
> Perhaps not, but TRAINOSE can be taken to the European court and will point
> at the EU/IMF/etc and shrug its shoulders. Even if they get fined, nobody
> wins.
Lets hope they get more than a fine. I'd like to see them challenged in
the court room for effectively breaching an agreed contract. The least
they can do is made provide replacment coaches from Thessaloniki to the
border stations to replace the international trains which should be
running.
Tadej Brezina
> Phil Richards <philri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 29/12/2010 23:35, Theo Markettos wrote:
>> Let's face it, Greece is a complete embarrassment to the rest of Europe
>> and it is not just the railways that are in a mess.
>>
>>> Just off the top of my head, some reasons:
>>>
>>> 1. Very low fares (in 2003, 800km Athens-Alexandroupoli was EUR28).
>> Yet InterRail passholders get clobbered for a HUGE supplement on "fast"
>> trains in Greece:
>
> Actually, those are the same supplements that everyone else pays. A normal
> 2nd class ticket from Athens-Thessaloniki is EUR28. That's valid on a
> non-IC/ICE train. On an ICE, which takes 4h30 not 6h, it's EUR48.
> Passholders are getting the 'slow' train rate, and then supplements for
> IC/ICE are extra.
My goodness, this is so lame! Why do they call their a-little-faster
than-slow-trains ICE, as this brand is undoubtly connected with high
quality German trains???
To me that's typically balkans style, copy something poorly, but give it
the very lousy impression of some western quality product.
Seen this many times in ex-Yugoslavia.
I didn't expect the Greeks to be made from the same wood.
T.
Theo Markettos
> My goodness, this is so lame! Why do they call their a-little-faster
> than-slow-trains ICE, as this brand is undoubtly connected with high
> quality German trains???
I don't think it is particularly associated like that in Greece. 'Inter
City' has more resonance than ICE.
When I last used them, the IC/ICEs got a 1980s AEG DMU set with aircon and
buffet, rather than a rake of motley 1960s rundown ex-DB hauled coaches with
no aircon which were swelteringly hot in summer especially when not going
anywhere (which isn't unusual, given the number of single line sections).
The 1960s stock has since been replaced with new Hellenic Shipyards stock -
I haven't tried those to see how they compare.
In the current timetable, there are 4 ICs, 2 ICEs and 2 'priority hi-speed'
(aka slow) trains per day Athens-Thessaloniki. So unless you can afford to
take all day over it, you don't get much choice of what sort of train you
take. And if you don't care what time you travel I'd choose to take the
slow... the fastest slow takes 5h41 and the slowest IC takes 5h31 so there
isn't a lot in it.
And, FWIW, ICs/ICEs are often full. http://tickets.trainose.gr/ (which I
hadn't seen before) shows you the number of free seats of future and past
trains... until the large 5-hour afternoon gap all ICs are full in 2nd
class.
Theo
Theo Markettos
> Actions in the road to the reorganization of TRAINOSE S.A.
Some further thoughts...
> - In the continual process of searching for new and attractive train
> services, in August new routes entered the timetable, as the “Aghios
> Andreas – Pátra – Rio”, while in contrast very unprofitable routes like
> “Amýntaio-Kozáni” got cancelled. In parallel, some provocatively low
> tariffs were reorganized (like the Pélion train), with the total gains
> for TRAINOSE surpassing 150 thousand Euros per month.
Which Agios Andreas is that? The only one I can find from Google that is
near a station is next to Livadia in Viotia... on a completely different
line (and gauge!). There's another near Katokolo... but that's Katokolo
station.
> Temporary Suspension - Stop traffic on these routes until further notice:
>
> - Athens-Alexandroupolis - Athens
> - Thessaloniki - Florina - Thessaloniki
> - Larissa - Kalambaka - Larissa
> - Patra - Pyrgos - Kalamata – Patra
>
> - Kalamata - Messini – Technical school - Kalamata
> - Korinthos - Tripolis - Nafplion - Corinth
> - Thessaloniki - Skopje - Beograd - Thessaloniki
> - Thessaloniki - Sofia - Bucharest - Thessaloniki
> - Thessaloniki - Istanbul - Thessaloniki
I read somewhere else that Katokolo-Pyrgos-Olympia is to remain. Does that
mean that stock will have to run empty to Patra for servicing? I don't
think there are many facilities at Pyrgos.
Also that omits Kyparissia-Kalo Nero. That's probably just an oversight
though... can't see much point if the mainline is shut.
Another international service not mentioned is Dikaia (GR)-Svilengrad (BG).
Does this still run? Even when it ran it was very hard to find out about...
just an extra station on one page of in the timetable book. (Ah, found a
ref to say it was running in October 2010). Since it's a short extension of
a domestic local service, maybe they have forgotten to cut this one? (Or
maybe BDZ will give up cooperating after OSE dumped their prestige
Sofia-Thessaloniki train)
And another line to add to the list of folly... Agrinio-Missolonghi-Krioneri
was refurbished after 40 years but has never seen a train. Since it's in NW
Greece entirely isolated from the rest of the network I imagine the chances
aren't good.
Theo
Nick Fotis
I wrote another response about the whole situation (maybe you didn't see
it, yet?). The prices have already been raised, and the closure of
routes will probably happen after the coming weekend.
By the way, today and tomorrow the metre gauge rolling stock are to be
relocated at their final destination, from what I have heard.
On 04/01/2011 05:30, Theo Markettos wrote:
> Which Agios Andreas is that? The only one I can find from Google that is
> near a station is next to Livadia in Viotia... on a completely different
> line (and gauge!). There's another near Katokolo... but that's Katokolo
> station.
Aghios Andreas is a station/yard inside Patras (south-west area, just
after the tracks cross the old national road by the seaside)
> I read somewhere else that Katokolo-Pyrgos-Olympia is to remain. Does that
> mean that stock will have to run empty to Patra for servicing? I don't
> think there are many facilities at Pyrgos.
Probably this route will not operate ever again.
> Also that omits Kyparissia-Kalo Nero. That's probably just an oversight
> though... can't see much point if the mainline is shut.
Kyparissia-Kalo Nero has stopped operating two years ago, if my memory
serves me correctly.
> Another international service not mentioned is Dikaia (GR)-Svilengrad (BG).
> Does this still run? Even when it ran it was very hard to find out about...
I think this was an extension of train 604, which is slated for stopping
anyway...
> And another line to add to the list of folly... Agrinio-Missolonghi-Krioneri
> was refurbished after 40 years but has never seen a train. Since it's in NW
> Greece entirely isolated from the rest of the network I imagine the chances
> aren't good.
The tracks are already starting to show signs of vandalism. By the way,
a week ago, thieves stole 20 meters of tracks in a standard gauge
freight branchline near Kozani, while a freight approached (and derailed
at the scene) - the tools were found on the scene.
Imagine what can happen as soon as the routes are fully abandoned!
(reportage in Greek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rWF2Sj9TauY )
N.F.
Graham Harrison
"Marc Van Dyck" <marc.gr...@invalid.skynet.be> wrote in message
news:mn.cd9c7dac8c...@invalid.skynet.be...
> Please read the following page :
>
> http://www.trainose.gr/en/component/content/article/126-draseis-sthn-poreia-eksygeianshs-ths-trainose
>
> This is the official web site of the greek railways company. If I
> understood well what is stated in there, all international services to
> and from Greece are suspended until further notice, as of January 1st,
> 2011.
>
> Basically, the main line between Athens and Thessaloniki remains, as
> well as the newly rebuilt lines around Athens, but everything else shuts
> down. Quite sad if this is true…
>
> --
> Marc Van Dyck
>
>
What about cross border freight?
Marc Van Dyck
As far as I know, only the passerger services are interrupted, the
lines themselves are not cut. One may therefore wonder how much will
effectively be saved by interrupting those services. On the other hand,
the volume of freight transport in Greece is almost nil, so it won't
make that much of a difference either.
--
Marc Van Dyck
tim....
> Graham Harrison pretended :
>> "Marc Van Dyck" <marc.gr...@invalid.skynet.be> wrote in message
>> news:mn.cd9c7dac8c...@invalid.skynet.be...
>>> Please read the following page :
>>>
>>> http://www.trainose.gr/en/component/content/article/126-draseis-sthn-poreia-eksygeianshs-ths-trainose
>>>
>>> This is the official web site of the greek railways company. If I
>>> understood well what is stated in there, all international services to
>>> and from Greece are suspended until further notice, as of January 1st,
>>> 2011.
>>>
>>> Basically, the main line between Athens and Thessaloniki remains, as
>>> well as the newly rebuilt lines around Athens, but everything else shuts
>>>
>>> -- Marc Van Dyck
>>>
>>>
>>
>> What about cross border freight?
>
> As far as I know, only the passerger services are interrupted, the
> lines themselves are not cut. One may therefore wonder how much will
> effectively be saved by interrupting those services.
A lot of money on staffing apparently.
Driver's salaries of up to 120,000 Euro have been quoted.
tim
Neil Williams
<tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Driver's salaries of up to 120,000 Euro have been quoted.
And I thought it was the UK that had high driver salaries...
Neil
--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK
Ross
>"Marc Van Dyck" <marc.gr...@invalid.skynet.be> wrote:
[Cutting costs in Greece]
>> As far as I know, only the passerger services are interrupted, the
>> lines themselves are not cut. One may therefore wonder how much will
>> effectively be saved by interrupting those services.
>
>A lot of money on staffing apparently.
>Driver's salaries of up to 120,000 Euro have been quoted.
Jesu Christos. That'd get you 3 senior ICE drivers in Germany, if I
remember their salary set-up correctly.
Mind you, I've read that OSE are a "government charity" for those who
the politicians wish to reward, with huge numbers of staff who've
never been seen at work but who get paid inflated salaries and so on.
How true that is I don't know but, whether it is or not, I wonder if
the government and OSE management have the willpower to actually cut
staffing numbers (and especially to root out those 'additional'
employees).
If they don't have that willpower, it's all going to be a waste of
time as the savings from these closures will be minimal.
--
Ross
Speaking for me, myself and I. Nobody else
- unless I make it clear that I am...
tim....
"Ross" <ros...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c5u5j6pko2vrmuli7...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 11:14:23 -0000, tim.... wrote:
>>"Marc Van Dyck" <marc.gr...@invalid.skynet.be> wrote:
>
> [Cutting costs in Greece]
>>> As far as I know, only the passerger services are interrupted, the
>>> lines themselves are not cut. One may therefore wonder how much will
>>> effectively be saved by interrupting those services.
>>
>>A lot of money on staffing apparently.
>>Driver's salaries of up to 120,000 Euro have been quoted.
>
> Jesu Christos. That'd get you 3 senior ICE drivers in Germany, if I
> remember their salary set-up correctly.
Yep!
And in Germany there are lots of alternative ways of earning over 40K. In
Greece there are very few ways of earning over 20K, so 120K is really out of
line with local salaries.
tim
Adam
> Driver's salaries of up to 120,000 Euro have been quoted.
>
> tim
It would be much appreciated if you could share the source of that
information with us!
Ross
>On 2011-01-16 12:14, tim.... wrote:
>> Driver's salaries of up to 120,000 Euro have been quoted.
>
>It would be much appreciated if you could share the source of that
>information with us!
I must admit that I'm intrigued to know if that's an actual salary
which has been paid to someone or just a theoretical "If someone
worked every minute they could" [1] top-line figure.
[1] For example, my salary is now GBP 41,031 [2], for the usual "BR"
4-day, 35 hour week.
I could _in_theory_ also therefore work 2 Rest Days each week and 1
Sunday in 2 whilst probably still remaining within the provisions of
the Hidden hours limits (13 days in 14, max 72hrs/wk).
If I were to do so, I could theoretically work 96 Rest Days (allowing
for 4 weeks leave) and about 24 or 25 Sundays.
By my calculations, doing so would put me on about GBP 66k top line.
*However*, it's not actually possible for me to do that much as there
simply isn't such a large amount of overtime available; realistically
I could probably do 1 Sunday and 1 or 2 Rest Days a month, and that'd
be an average.
As such there's a big difference between my theoretical maximum
earnings working every minute I could and my potential maximum
earnings working every minute available to me.
In practice I don't work Sundays at all and Rest Days only to cover
someone who needs the day off (and who's work can't otherwise be
covered), so I pretty much get paid my basic salary.
[2] We have just had a 5.2% RPI+0.5% increase, being on the second
year of a two-year pay deal. I'm well aware that we're _very_ lucky to
have that, and I doubt we'll see such an increase - or any increase at
all - in the years to come.
tim....
"Adam" <emilva...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c945a$4d339447$5418b637$21...@cache1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
Sorry, can't remember. It was from a newspaper website or similar
tim
Theo Markettos
> I must admit that I'm intrigued to know if that's an actual salary
> which has been paid to someone or just a theoretical "If someone
> worked every minute they could" [1] top-line figure.
This article:
http://www.tanea.gr/default.asp?artid=4593599&ct=1&pid=2
which you probably want to read in translation:
http://goo.gl/Pd1oz
says this:
<quote>
Salaries and cuts.
From 2000 to 2009 staff Railway fell by 30%. But the overall payroll rose by
50%. Fixed remuneration is the same railway per sector. The extra bonuses
and overtime but the drivers make one of the highest paid specialties. For
an employee with over 20 years of work the average monthly salary reaches
2400 gross. The night paid 23 euros per 1000 km, the driver receives 25
bonus, while those working in the off charge of € 110 gross per day. Due to
lack of staff, about 30 people until recently shared the night journeys.
Some worked 70 days without consecutive days off and annual salary reached
from overtime, up to 90,000 euros gross.
</quote>
Theo
Phil Richards
> Please read the following page :
>
> http://www.trainose.gr/en/component/content/article/126-draseis-sthn-poreia-eksygeianshs-ths-trainose
>
>
> This is the official web site of the greek railways company. If I
> understood well what is stated in there, all international services to
> and from Greece are suspended until further notice, as of January 1st,
> 2011.
Latest from the "Whats New" page of Seat61.com is that there are reports
of international trains running to & from Thessaloniki:
"Latest update, 16 January 2011: It's reliably reported that the
Belgrade-Thessaloniki trains are in fact still running normally, as is
the Thessaloniki-Istanbul 'Filia Dostluk Express' train. It's not clear
whether these trains have been given a reprieve, or if they are being
run by OSE staff in spite of Government instructions to stop them! At
least one train from Sofia to Thessaloniki is also running. However, I
have not received any info to confirm if the 'Romania'
Bucharest-Sofia-Thessaloniki train is running or not. "
Anyone locally able to confirm this please?
Ross
Thanks for the info, Theo. It certainly seems that the EUR 120k figure
is at best theoretical even if it's not a complete exaggeration.
Working 70 consecutive days would no longer be allowed in the UK,
although it used to be in the "Old Days", and in almost all cases
allowances such as night rate have been consolidated into the basic
salary here, which gives Greek drivers another possibility for extra
earnings that we no longer have.
Nick Fotis
> "Latest update, 16 January 2011: It's reliably reported that the
> Belgrade-Thessaloniki trains are in fact still running normally, as is
> the Thessaloniki-Istanbul 'Filia Dostluk Express' train. It's not clear
> whether these trains have been given a reprieve, or if they are being
> run by OSE staff in spite of Government instructions to stop them! At
> least one train from Sofia to Thessaloniki is also running. However, I
> have not received any info to confirm if the 'Romania'
> Bucharest-Sofia-Thessaloniki train is running or not. "
>
> Anyone locally able to confirm this please?
>
Until now, the international trains still run, as far as I know.
But it's official: from 24th January, nearly all metre gauge trains
cease operation, except the Patras commuter service.
The latter is expected to stop operation as soon as the (still) new GTW
railbuses start needing service and maintenance, because the Kalamatas
depot essentially closes, due to staff relocation to public sector
(and it's the only place in the network with the infrastructure for
doing all kinds of maintenance).
Very saddened,
N.F.