Autism message
jdeer...@yahoo.com
into this debate was to attract some attention,
because I do have a message for parents
whose children are affected. Even though
thimerosal has been 'removed' from the
vaccinations, I do believe there are a lot
of affected parents.
So I wish people who read this will spread
the message.
Basically the message is this:
Why do you have to care about the politics of this?
All you need to know is that there is a slight
chance mercury is the culprit.
If mercury is the culprit, and you do NOT try
a cure, you have hurt your child's future.
If mercury is not the culprit, and you still
try a cure, what have you hurt?
Let us find out the risk.
It was found in Japan that cilantro can
chelate mercury. Reports also say that
chlorella can help in the chelation process.
Cilantro is a mild herb used for thousands
of years, like thyme/oregano/parsley etc. It
is not going to hurt your child. Chlorella is
some sort of algae, and no study says it is
harmful. Chemical analysis shows it has a lot
of good nutrients. Several millions of Japanese
have been eating it every day. So even if it
did nothing else, it ought to improve your
child's health a little.
So you feed your child cilantro and chlorella
for a month, and you are wrong about mercury,
and nothing happens. Big deal. So you paid a
little bit of money for a bunch of cilantro from
your grocery store, and some money for chlorella
from your local natural food store. You also
had to work a bit on your kid to feed the
cilantro and chlorella. What have you
really lost?
Cliantro and chlorella are basically food,
not medicines. An honest pediatrician cannot
stop you from trying this, anymore than
they can stop you from feeding your
child spinach and apples.
Let us say you did this for a month, and
nothing happened. You are no worse.
And if you did this for a month, and if you see
a "shock to the system" recovery, what have
you gained?
If you do see a recovery (but don't do wishy
washy stuff, go really heavy on the cilantro
and chlorella), then you can continue the chelation
process for as long as it continues helping. Maybe
throw in some gingko every once in a while for a
week or so. Even if the child doesn't recover
the intelligence he/she was born with, won't most
parents be extremely glad simply for the
child becoming an average citizen?
If you see no change, well, just don't
do anything further.
I personally do not understand how any
parent would refuse to do such a simple
experiment, just because there is politics
surrounding the issue.
When there is no risk to the experimentation,
and possibly big gains, why not experiment a bit?
Who cares if it's called "alternative", "naturopathic",
"double-blind tested", or "the green eggs and ham method"?
Who cares if it was debated in a hundred studies
until the debaters were blue in the face?
Ultimately, all that matters are the actual
potential risks, and the actual potential gains.
Majusmaximum
cilantro & chlorella you mentioned, or something a bit harsher (DMPS), or
something more unusual (the detox foot patches, which on analysis have
shown mercury deposits), in any event you have to give the child something
to "suck up" and carry out, as soon as possible, the mercury, before it
resettles into the tissues (again) - causing a horrible new set of
symptoms. Alginate, concentrated from seaweed, is normally used. It
comes in various forms.
This is not the last word in heavy metal detox. Hope you will do more
research and good luck.
HCN
<jdeer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124629490....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>...> Let us find out the risk.
>
> It was found in Japan that cilantro can
> chelate mercury. Reports also say that
> chlorella can help in the chelation process.
>
Do you have a link to this study? Does it say anything anyway related to
what you claim it does?
> Cilantro is a mild herb used for thousands
> of years, like thyme/oregano/parsley etc. It
> is not going to hurt your child.
Perhaps, but it just tastes like soap.
... snip lots of stuff...
There is no conclusive evidence that autism is caused by vaccines. There
are studies that show autism is genetic:
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15647115
jdeer...@yahoo.com
> > It was found in Japan that cilantro can
> > chelate mercury. Reports also say that
> > chlorella can help in the chelation process.
> >
>
> Do you have a link to this study? Does it say anything anyway related to
> what you claim it does?
It's by an accupuncturist:
Y.Omura et al, Heart Disease Research Foundation, NY,NY, "Role
of mercury in resistant infections and recovery after Hg detox
with cilantro", Acupuncture & Electro-Theraputics Research,
1995 Aug-Dec.
It doesn't exactly refer to mercury chelation for autism as such,
but mercury chelation is mercury chelation.
Some mercury chelation protocols fixate on prescription-only
medication. However, their performance data indicates
they have had little success after 5 years of age. Plus
they have a big list of possible side effects. This is
mostly from MDs who have moved over to the "mercury"
camp, so I suspect they may be naturally somewhat more
trusting of prescription medication as opposed to food.
Not meaning to negate their work, but given choices
my own preferance would be to avoid prescription
strength drugs as long as possible, and use fresh
food directly instead.
CWatters
> chelate mercury.
What else does it chelate?
jdeer...@yahoo.com
Other heavy metals, I believe. (But according
to various sources, the US thimerosal removal
wasn't actually performed in 1999 as advertised, so
there is no need yet to look for other agents.)
Jeff
> into this debate was to attract some attention,
> because I do have a message for parents
> whose children are affected. Even though
> thimerosal has been 'removed' from the
> vaccinations, I do believe there are a lot
> of affected parents.
>
> So I wish people who read this will spread
> the message.
>
> Basically the message is this:
>
> Why do you have to care about the politics of this?
> All you need to know is that there is a slight
> chance mercury is the culprit.
There is a slight chance that George Bush made an intelligent decision in
his life. But I wouldn't vote for him.
The reality of the matter is that the evidence that thimerasol doesn't cause
autism is overwhelming.
> If mercury is the culprit, and you do NOT try
> a cure, you have hurt your child's future.
> If mercury is not the culprit, and you still
> try a cure, what have you hurt?
Your pocket book will suffer with no benefit. And you have wasted your time.
> Let us find out the risk.
>
> It was found in Japan that cilantro can
> chelate mercury. Reports also say that
> chlorella can help in the chelation process.
Peer-reviewed references that they actually help when given as directed.
> Cilantro is a mild herb used for thousands
> of years, like thyme/oregano/parsley etc. It
> is not going to hurt your child. Chlorella is
> some sort of algae, and no study says it is
> harmful. Chemical analysis shows it has a lot
> of good nutrients. Several millions of Japanese
> have been eating it every day. So even if it
> did nothing else, it ought to improve your
> child's health a little.
So will a good diet and excercise.
> So you feed your child cilantro and chlorella
> for a month, and you are wrong about mercury,
> and nothing happens. Big deal. So you paid a
> little bit of money for a bunch of cilantro from
> your grocery store, and some money for chlorella
> from your local natural food store. You also
> had to work a bit on your kid to feed the
> cilantro and chlorella. What have you
> really lost?
Time and money that can be used for college.\
> Cliantro and chlorella are basically food,
> not medicines. An honest pediatrician cannot
> stop you from trying this, anymore than
> they can stop you from feeding your
> child spinach and apples.
But an honest pediatician would tell you you are wasting your time.
> Let us say you did this for a month, and
> nothing happened. You are no worse.
>
> And if you did this for a month, and if you see
> a "shock to the system" recovery, what have
> you gained?
Except that mercury is NOT the cause of autism.
> If you do see a recovery (but don't do wishy
> washy stuff, go really heavy on the cilantro
> and chlorella), then you can continue the chelation
> process for as long as it continues helping. Maybe
> throw in some gingko every once in a while for a
> week or so. Even if the child doesn't recover
> the intelligence he/she was born with, won't most
> parents be extremely glad simply for the
> child becoming an average citizen?
An intelligent one would tell you that the treatment won't help, so you are
wasting your time and should concentrate on things that do work.
> If you see no change, well, just don't
> do anything further.
>
> I personally do not understand how any
> parent would refuse to do such a simple
> experiment, just because there is politics
> surrounding the issue.
>
> When there is no risk to the experimentation,
> and possibly big gains, why not experiment a bit?
Cost and waste of time and money. Unless you provide compelling evidence
that these things really work.
> Who cares if it's called "alternative", "naturopathic",
> "double-blind tested", or "the green eggs and ham method"?
> Who cares if it was debated in a hundred studies
> until the debaters were blue in the face?
No one. What one cares about is evidence. So far you have offered none.
> Ultimately, all that matters are the actual
> potential risks, and the actual potential gains.
And the cost, as well as the fact that parents should be doing things that
work.
Jeff
LadyLollipop
"Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4Y8Oe.9629$ns....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> <jdeer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1124629490....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>I have to clarify that the reason I jumped
>> into this debate was to attract some attention,
>> because I do have a message for parents
>> whose children are affected. Even though
>> thimerosal has been 'removed' from the
>> vaccinations, I do believe there are a lot
>> of affected parents.
>>
>> So I wish people who read this will spread
>> the message.
>>
>> Basically the message is this:
>>
>> Why do you have to care about the politics of this?
>> All you need to know is that there is a slight
>> chance mercury is the culprit.
>
> There is a slight chance that George Bush made an intelligent decision in
> his life. But I wouldn't vote for him.
George Bush and who you would vote for is not the subject.
> The reality of the matter is that the evidence that thimerasol doesn't
> cause autism is overwhelming.
>
>> If mercury is the culprit, and you do NOT try
>> a cure, you have hurt your child's future.
>> If mercury is not the culprit, and you still
>> try a cure, what have you hurt?
>
> Your pocket book will suffer with no benefit. And you have wasted your
> time.
If mercury is the culprit, and you do NOT try
a cure, you have hurt your child's future.
>
>> Let us find out the risk.
>>
>> It was found in Japan that cilantro can
>> chelate mercury. Reports also say that
>> chlorella can help in the chelation process.
>
> Peer-reviewed references that they actually help when given as directed.
Too bad *organized medicine* is so far outdated, they don't know the simple
things.
http://www.drlaurathompson.com/scicnhealthart.htm#Heavy%20Metal%20Toxicity
N-acetylcysteine in capsule form promotes detoxification of the liver by
enhancing the synthesis of glutathione. The herb and food (or spice)
cilantro, often referred to as coriander, is excellent for detoxifying
metals from the body as are most high chlorophyll-containing foods.
Coriander is especially good for detoxifying mercury from the body.
>
>> Cilantro is a mild herb used for thousands
>> of years, like thyme/oregano/parsley etc. It
>> is not going to hurt your child. Chlorella is
>> some sort of algae, and no study says it is
>> harmful. Chemical analysis shows it has a lot
>> of good nutrients. Several millions of Japanese
>> have been eating it every day. So even if it
>> did nothing else, it ought to improve your
>> child's health a little.
>
> So will a good diet and excercise.
I does NOT chelate mercury from the body.
>
>> So you feed your child cilantro and chlorella
>> for a month, and you are wrong about mercury,
>> and nothing happens. Big deal. So you paid a
>> little bit of money for a bunch of cilantro from
>> your grocery store, and some money for chlorella
>> from your local natural food store. You also
>> had to work a bit on your kid to feed the
>> cilantro and chlorella. What have you
>> really lost?
>
> Time and money that can be used for college.\
Your child dies before the age of college.\
>
>> Cliantro and chlorella are basically food,
>> not medicines. An honest pediatrician cannot
>> stop you from trying this, anymore than
>> they can stop you from feeding your
>> child spinach and apples.
>
> But an honest pediatician would tell you you are wasting your time.
Wrong, that would be lying.
>
>> Let us say you did this for a month, and
>> nothing happened. You are no worse.
>>
>> And if you did this for a month, and if you see
>> a "shock to the system" recovery, what have
>> you gained?
>
> Except that mercury is NOT the cause of autism.
ZZzz.
BTW, Jeff, NEWFLASH, mice are used for research.
http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
By ###
Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday
By Tara Parker-Pope
The Wall Street Journal
Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
their kids.
For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal,
an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine
preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In
May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.
But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia
University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the
effects of thimerosal.
The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
preservative.
In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young
mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
genetic susceptibility to mercury.
Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
autism-like damage in mice
A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the
developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn
Greene
Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed
with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady
Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of
genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.
Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with
doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
age two, four, six, and twelve months.
The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with
thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and
neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:
Abnormal response to novel environments;
Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
brain size.
These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to
environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been
reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be
exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction
between genes and the environment over time.
Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529
For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States
of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:
mh2...@columbia.edu
ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
strain-dependent"
M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin
Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032
>
>> If you do see a recovery (but don't do wishy
>> washy stuff, go really heavy on the cilantro
>> and chlorella), then you can continue the chelation
>> process for as long as it continues helping. Maybe
>> throw in some gingko every once in a while for a
>> week or so. Even if the child doesn't recover
>> the intelligence he/she was born with, won't most
>> parents be extremely glad simply for the
>> child becoming an average citizen?
>
> An intelligent one would tell you that the treatment won't help, so you
> are wasting your time and should concentrate on things that do work.
That would be one of *organized medicine* who LIES.
>
>> If you see no change, well, just don't
>> do anything further.
>>
>> I personally do not understand how any
>> parent would refuse to do such a simple
>> experiment, just because there is politics
>> surrounding the issue.
>>
>> When there is no risk to the experimentation,
>> and possibly big gains, why not experiment a bit?
>
> Cost and waste of time and money. Unless you provide compelling evidence
> that these things really work.
ZZzz.
*Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut* *reasonable*
*significant* *credibile* *compelling* *copious* *direct*
>
>> Who cares if it's called "alternative", "naturopathic",
>> "double-blind tested", or "the green eggs and ham method"?
>> Who cares if it was debated in a hundred studies
>> until the debaters were blue in the face?
>
> No one. What one cares about is evidence. So far you have offered none.
All you have offered is pat replies numbers 5732748732748374, as I have just
shown.
>
>> Ultimately, all that matters are the actual
>> potential risks, and the actual potential gains.
>
> And the cost, as well as the fact that parents should be doing things that
> work.
>
> Jeff
Because a treatment has not been proven in a controlled trial does not mean
it does not work or does not have scientific backing.
"Wyle E. Coyote, M.D.
Rich
"LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:5maOe.269691$x96.156297@attbi_s72...
>
> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4Y8Oe.9629$ns....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> simple things.
There is no such thing as "*organized medicine*" until you give meaning to
the term by defining it, Jan. Where is that definition?
> Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
> autism-like damage in mice
"Autism-like" is a subjective judgement with political overtones, not an
objective observation. The term is clear evidence of the authors' bias.
>> Cost and waste of time and money. Unless you provide compelling evidence
>> that these things really work.
>
> ZZzz.
>
> *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut* *reasonable*
> *significant* *credibile* *compelling* *copious* *direct*
Insubstantial, imaginary, mushy, unconvincing, soft, vague, unreasonable,
insignificant, incredible, inconclusive, scant, and indirect evidences are
good enough for you, then, Jan?
>> No one. What one cares about is evidence. So far you have offered none.
>
> All you have offered is pat replies numbers 5732748732748374, as I have
> just shown.
And all you have offered are your "pat" replies nos. 1 and 2, "ZZzz", and
"*organized medicine". The first is an admission of your inattention and
ignorance, and the second is a meaningless epithet meant to insult. Where is
that definition, Jan?
--Rich
Jeff
> If mercury is the culprit, and you do NOT try
> a cure, you have hurt your child's future.
Considering all of the evidence that autism is NOT caused by mercury, this
is a huge "if."
>>
>>> Let us find out the risk.
>>>
>>> It was found in Japan that cilantro can
>>> chelate mercury. Reports also say that
>>> chlorella can help in the chelation process.
>>
>> Peer-reviewed references that they actually help when given as directed.
>
> Too bad *organized medicine* is so far outdated, they don't know the
> simple things.
>
> http://www.drlaurathompson.com/scicnhealthart.htm#Heavy%20Metal%20Toxicity
The reason they don't know these simple things is that these simple things
are false. Heavy metal poisoning does not cause ADHD or autism.
However, selling a variety of products does help the sponsor of web pages
make money.
> N-acetylcysteine in capsule form promotes detoxification of the liver
> by enhancing the synthesis of glutathione. The herb and food (or spice)
> cilantro, often referred to as coriander, is excellent for detoxifying
> metals from the body as are most high chlorophyll-containing foods.
> Coriander is especially good for detoxifying mercury from the body.
For this to work for autism, three things would have to be true:
1) Autism would have to be caused by heavy metals.
2) Damage has to be ongoing from the heavy metals. Even if mercury causes
autism, once the symptoms start, it may be too late to reverse them.
3) The product advertised would actually have to work.
>
>
>>
>>> Cilantro is a mild herb used for thousands
>>> of years, like thyme/oregano/parsley etc. It
>>> is not going to hurt your child. Chlorella is
>>> some sort of algae, and no study says it is
>>> harmful. Chemical analysis shows it has a lot
>>> of good nutrients. Several millions of Japanese
>>> have been eating it every day. So even if it
>>> did nothing else, it ought to improve your
>>> child's health a little.
>>
>> So will a good diet and excercise.
>
> I does NOT chelate mercury from the body.
I never claimed that it does.
>>
>>> So you feed your child cilantro and chlorella
>>> for a month, and you are wrong about mercury,
>>> and nothing happens. Big deal. So you paid a
>>> little bit of money for a bunch of cilantro from
>>> your grocery store, and some money for chlorella
>>> from your local natural food store. You also
>>> had to work a bit on your kid to feed the
>>> cilantro and chlorella. What have you
>>> really lost?
>>
>> Time and money that can be used for college.\
>
> Your child dies before the age of college.\
Unlikely. Even kids with autism sometimes go to college. And most kids are
capable of going to college.
>>
>>> Cliantro and chlorella are basically food,
>>> not medicines. An honest pediatrician cannot
>>> stop you from trying this, anymore than
>>> they can stop you from feeding your
>>> child spinach and apples.
>>
>> But an honest pediatician would tell you you are wasting your time.
>
> Wrong, that would be lying.
Provide me with the peer-reviewed evidence that cliantro and chlorella
really does anything to help kids with autism.
>>
>>> Let us say you did this for a month, and
>>> nothing happened. You are no worse.
>>>
>>> And if you did this for a month, and if you see
>>> a "shock to the system" recovery, what have
>>> you gained?
>>
>> Except that mercury is NOT the cause of autism.
>
> ZZzz.
>
> BTW, Jeff, NEWFLASH, mice are used for research.
I am quite well aware of that.
Copyrighted material deleted.
Jeff
David Wright
Ooh, "various sources." Well, there's a nice, definitive statement,
isn't it? God forbid you should tell us what these "various sources,"
are, lest we find out you're just blowing smoke.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you meet the Buddha on the net, put him in your killfile."
-- Anon.
LadyLollipop
"Rich" <jos...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:lXaOe.4254$HR5...@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:5maOe.269691$x96.156297@attbi_s72...
>>
>> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4Y8Oe.9629$ns....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>
>> Too bad *organized medicine* is so far outdated, they don't know the
>> simple things.
>
> There is no such thing as "*organized medicine*" until you give meaning to
> the term by defining it, Jan.
Searched all groups Results 1 - 10 of 17 for joshew@ hawaii . rr .
com There is no such thing as *organized medicine * (0.52 seconds)
>
>
>> Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
>> autism-like damage in mice
>
> "Autism-like" is a subjective judgement with political overtones, not an
> objective observation. The term is clear evidence of the authors' bias.
Searched all groups Results 1 - 4 of 4 for joshew@ hawaii . rr . com
authors ' bias . (0.08 seconds)
>
>
>>> Cost and waste of time and money. Unless you provide compelling evidence
>>> that these things really work.
>>
>> ZZzz.
>>
>> *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut* *reasonable*
>> *significant* *credibile* *compelling* *copious* *direct*
>
> Insubstantial, imaginary, mushy, unconvincing, soft, vague, unreasonable,
> insignificant, incredible, inconclusive, scant, and indirect evidences are
> good enough for you, then, Jan?
Nope.
http://www.algonet.se/~leif/FUSCIFCT.html
Scientifically Proven Facts
>
>
>
>>> No one. What one cares about is evidence. So far you have offered none.
>>
>> All you have offered is pat replies numbers 5732748732748374, as I have
>> just shown.
>
<snip the usual offered insult>
>
> --Rich
>
>
>
LadyLollipop
>
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:5maOe.269691$x96.156297@attbi_s72...
<snip Jeff showing his butt?
>
>> If mercury is the culprit, and you do NOT try
>> a cure, you have hurt your child's future.
>
> Considering all of the evidence that autism is NOT caused by mercury, this
> is a huge "if."
It is peoples' children!!!!!!!!!!
Consider ALL.
>>>
>>>> Let us find out the risk.
>>>>
>>>> It was found in Japan that cilantro can
>>>> chelate mercury. Reports also say that
>>>> chlorella can help in the chelation process.
>>>
>>> Peer-reviewed references that they actually help when given as directed.
>>
>> Too bad *organized medicine* is so far outdated, they don't know the
>> simple things.
>>
>> http://www.drlaurathompson.com/scicnhealthart.htm#Heavy%20Metal%20Toxicity
>
> The reason they don't know these simple things is that these simple things
> are false. Heavy metal poisoning does not cause ADHD or autism.
You are in denial, Jeff.
http://www.healingwithnutrition.com/adisease/add-adhd/toxicexposure.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller14.html
http://www.testfoundation.org/thimerosal.htm
http://www.testfoundation.org/aluminumvaccines.htm
>
> However, selling a variety of products does help the sponsor of web pages
> make money.
Health Articles by Dr. Laura Thompson
Oh? Cite evidence, please.
>
>>>
>>>> Cliantro and chlorella are basically food,
>>>> not medicines. An honest pediatrician cannot
>>>> stop you from trying this, anymore than
>>>> they can stop you from feeding your
>>>> child spinach and apples.
>>>
>>> But an honest pediatician would tell you you are wasting your time.
>>
>> Wrong, that would be lying.
>
> Provide me with the peer-reviewed evidence that cliantro and chlorella
> really does anything to help kids with autism.
I have provided you with truth about peer-reviewed. You have a closed mind.
>
>>>
>>>> Let us say you did this for a month, and
>>>> nothing happened. You are no worse.
>>>>
>>>> And if you did this for a month, and if you see
>>>> a "shock to the system" recovery, what have
>>>> you gained?
>>>
>>> Except that mercury is NOT the cause of autism.
>>
>> ZZzz.
>>
>> BTW, Jeff, NEWFLASH, mice are used for research.
>
> I am quite well aware of that.
Uh huh. Sure you are.
*Should I ever get a pet female rat, I will be sure to take this into
account*
.
*If I ever get mice, I will be sure to not vaccinate them*.
>
> Copyrighted material deleted.
> Jeff
Study restored:
Jeff
>
> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:wdbOe.9680$ns....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>> news:5maOe.269691$x96.156297@attbi_s72...
>
> <snip Jeff showing his butt?
>>
>>> If mercury is the culprit, and you do NOT try
>>> a cure, you have hurt your child's future.
>>
>> Considering all of the evidence that autism is NOT caused by mercury,
>> this is a huge "if."
>
>
> It is peoples' children!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Consider ALL.
I am considering this. I am also considering that you are exposing children
to an unproven treatment that will waste time, money and effort, with
absolutely no evidence that it will do any good. And there is no evidence
that the treatment is even safe.
Rather than waste efforts on this stupid treatment, it makes much more sense
to concentrate on things that have been shown to work.
>>>>
>>>>> Let us find out the risk.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was found in Japan that cilantro can
>>>>> chelate mercury. Reports also say that
>>>>> chlorella can help in the chelation process.
>>>>
>>>> Peer-reviewed references that they actually help when given as
>>>> directed.
>>>
>>> Too bad *organized medicine* is so far outdated, they don't know the
>>> simple things.
>>>
>>> http://www.drlaurathompson.com/scicnhealthart.htm#Heavy%20Metal%20Toxicity
>>
>> The reason they don't know these simple things is that these simple
>> things are false. Heavy metal poisoning does not cause ADHD or autism.
>
> You are in denial, Jeff.
>
> http://www.healingwithnutrition.com/adisease/add-adhd/toxicexposure.html
>
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller14.html
>
> http://www.testfoundation.org/thimerosal.htm
>
> http://www.testfoundation.org/aluminumvaccines.htm
The first site, whether you realize it or not, is a commercial site trying
to sell a product.
The testing foundation sites don't work, at least on my computer.
Look at the low quality of references on the second site. Many of which were
discredited and few, if any, are from the peer-reviewed research.
I am not in denial. I am able to discern accurate information from
inaccurate information. The information you provide is inaccurate, IMHO.
>>
>> However, selling a variety of products does help the sponsor of web pages
>> make money.
>
> Health Articles by Dr. Laura Thompson
Dr. Thompson has her Ph.D. in plant physiology. The web site she writes for
(http://www.drlaurathompson.com/) is trying to make money. Enough said.
(...)
>> Unlikely. Even kids with autism sometimes go to college. And most kids
>> are capable of going to college.
>
> Oh? Cite evidence, please.
In some communities, more than half the kids go to college. Considering that
there is very little evidence that people in other communities are less
intelligent (they just happen to have the wrong color skin or the wrong
ethnic background or not enough money), people in other communities can
achieve just as much as people in the better off communities. Therefore, I
beleive that most people have the intelligence to go to college.
>>
>>>>
>>>>> Cliantro and chlorella are basically food,
>>>>> not medicines. An honest pediatrician cannot
>>>>> stop you from trying this, anymore than
>>>>> they can stop you from feeding your
>>>>> child spinach and apples.
>>>>
>>>> But an honest pediatician would tell you you are wasting your time.
>>>
>>> Wrong, that would be lying.
>>
>> Provide me with the peer-reviewed evidence that cliantro and chlorella
>> really does anything to help kids with autism.
>
> I have provided you with truth about peer-reviewed. You have a closed
> mind.
You have provided me with opinion about peer-review. And a losy one at that.
>>
>>>>
>>>>> Let us say you did this for a month, and
>>>>> nothing happened. You are no worse.
>>>>>
>>>>> And if you did this for a month, and if you see
>>>>> a "shock to the system" recovery, what have
>>>>> you gained?
>>>>
>>>> Except that mercury is NOT the cause of autism.
>>>
>>> ZZzz.
>>>
>>> BTW, Jeff, NEWFLASH, mice are used for research.
>>
>> I am quite well aware of that.
>
> Uh huh. Sure you are.
I have seen mice used for immunological research.
> *Should I ever get a pet female rat, I will be sure to take this into
> account*
> .
> *If I ever get mice, I will be sure to not vaccinate them*.
Correct. I won't vaccination my mice.
>>
>> Copyrighted material deleted.
>
>> Jeff
>
> Study restored:
Copyright material deleted again. People who wish to see it can easily find
it.
Jeff
jdeer...@yahoo.com
> In article <1124666919....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> <jdeer...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >CWatters wrote:
> >> <jdeer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1124629490....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> > It was found in Japan that cilantro can
> >> > chelate mercury.
> >>
> >> What else does it chelate?
> >
> >Other heavy metals, I believe. (But according
> >to various sources, the US thimerosal removal
> >wasn't actually performed in 1999 as advertised, so
> >there is no need yet to look for other agents.)
>
> Ooh, "various sources." Well, there's a nice, definitive statement,
> isn't it? God forbid you should tell us what these "various sources,"
> are, lest we find out you're just blowing smoke.
When, when I find I am dealing with intellectually
dishonest opponents, I find myself free to provide
information or not -- for anything I do provide
will simply become fodder for further dishonest responses.
jdeer...@yahoo.com
The chlorella is supposed to bind to ("suck up") and carry
out the mercury, though this is a relatively un-researched field,
and I am sure better remedies must exist.
Mark Probert
Do you have a treatment for peopple whose hopes you falsely raise?
You see, I have two special needs kids, and, for several years, we went
through lots of bullshit to find something to 'cure' them. We eventually
found that there ain't no such thing, and that the commercial and
noncommercial scumbags who promote these are truly just that, scumbags.
And, please, do not tell me, as others have previously done, that a
parent is wrong for getting their hopes up. IMNSHO, that line only makes
the purveyors of bullshit an even bigger scumbag.
Mark Probert
Thank you for admitting that you do not have proof of your claims.
CWatters
<jdeer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124666919....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> CWatters wrote:
> > <jdeer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:1124629490....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > > It was found in Japan that cilantro can
> > > chelate mercury.
> >
> > What else does it chelate?
>
> Other heavy metals, I believe.
If it's so powerful that it can chelate mercury might it also make you
deficient in minerals like zinc?
CWatters
> > Considering all of the evidence that autism is NOT caused by mercury,
this
> > is a huge "if."
>
> It is peoples' children!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Consider ALL.
>
If Cilantro soaksup mercury so well isn't there a risk that the plant might
itself contain high levels of mercury if it's grown in the wrong place?
CWatters
<jdeer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124719813.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Majusmaximum wrote:
>
> The chlorella is supposed to bind to ("suck up") and carry
> out the mercury, though this is a relatively un-researched field,
> and I am sure better remedies must exist.
Better be careful where you grow it then. It might absorb mercury from
poluted soil/air.
Mark Probert
> Other heavy metals, I believe. (But according
> to various sources, the US thimerosal removal
> wasn't actually performed in 1999 as advertised, so
> there is no need yet to look for other agents.)
Other than something you found under a rock, got proof?
Mark Probert
> <jdeer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1124629490....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>>I have to clarify that the reason I jumped
>>into this debate was to attract some attention,
>>because I do have a message for parents
>>whose children are affected. Even though
>>thimerosal has been 'removed' from the
>>vaccinations, I do believe there are a lot
>>of affected parents.
>>
>>So I wish people who read this will spread
>>the message.
>>
>>Basically the message is this:
>>
>>Why do you have to care about the politics of this?
>>All you need to know is that there is a slight
>>chance mercury is the culprit.
>
>
> There is a slight chance that George Bush made an intelligent decision in
> his life.
I know of one. He appointed Nora Volkow as head of NIDA. That is his
only 100% ability appointment I am aware of.
Majusmaximum
tho. Cilantro (Chinese parsley) is.
Maybe cilantro being an accumulator substance for mercury when ground up &
put in a capsule (is that how it's taken?) does not necessarily mean that
it accumulates mecury when growing. I think I'm going to look this up.
Majusmaximum
who to trust any more - then you must have your hands full. And I am so
sorry that there has been no "cure" so far, in your case.
I would only ask that you hold orthodox medical practitioners and drug
companies to the same standards that you expect of others - ordinary folk
who are unwilling to ever, ever give up on their own or their children's
health. Never give up.
LadyLollipop
>
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:w0dOe.272249$_o.52148@attbi_s71...
>>
>> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:wdbOe.9680$ns....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>>> news:5maOe.269691$x96.156297@attbi_s72...
>>
>> <snip Jeff showing his butt?
>>>
>>>> If mercury is the culprit, and you do NOT try
>>>> a cure, you have hurt your child's future.
>>>
>>> Considering all of the evidence that autism is NOT caused by mercury,
>>> this is a huge "if."
>>
>>
>> It is peoples' children!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> Consider ALL.
>
> I am considering this. I am also considering that you are exposing
> children to an unproven treatment that will waste time, money and effort,
> with absolutely no evidence that it will do any good.
Wrong as usual.
And there is no evidence that the treatment is even safe.
Wrong as usual.
>
> Rather than waste efforts on this stupid treatment,
It isn't stupid.
it makes much more sense to concentrate on things that have been shown to
work.
Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
Like the statement made above.
>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Let us find out the risk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was found in Japan that cilantro can
>>>>>> chelate mercury. Reports also say that
>>>>>> chlorella can help in the chelation process.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peer-reviewed references that they actually help when given as
>>>>> directed.
>>>>
>>>> Too bad *organized medicine* is so far outdated, they don't know the
>>>> simple things.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.drlaurathompson.com/scicnhealthart.htm#Heavy%20Metal%20Toxicity
>>>
>>> The reason they don't know these simple things is that these simple
>>> things are false. Heavy metal poisoning does not cause ADHD or autism.
>>
>> You are in denial, Jeff.
>>
>> http://www.healingwithnutrition.com/adisease/add-adhd/toxicexposure.html
>>
>> http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller14.html
>>
>> http://www.testfoundation.org/thimerosal.htm
>>
>> http://www.testfoundation.org/aluminumvaccines.htm
>
> The first site, whether you realize it or not, is a commercial site trying
> to sell a product.
Health Articles by Dr. Laura Thompson
>
> The testing foundation sites don't work, at least on my computer.
http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/congressacts.htm
Try that.
>
> Look at the low quality of references on the second site.
What *low quality* would that be?
Many of which were discredited
Discredited by whom?
Donald Miller is a cardiac surgeon and Professor of Surgery at the
University of Washington in Seattle
and few, if any, are from the peer-reviewed research.
Back to peer-reveiwed again, Jeff??
You sound like a broken record.
See:
> I am not in denial. I am able to discern accurate information from
> inaccurate information. The information you provide is inaccurate, IMHO.
IMHO, you are in denial and are NOT able to discern accurate information
from
inaccurate information.
>>> However, selling a variety of products does help the sponsor of web
>>> pages make money.
>>
>> Health Articles by Dr. Laura Thompson
>
> Dr. Thompson has her Ph.D. in plant physiology. The web site she writes
> for (http://www.drlaurathompson.com/) is trying to make money. Enough
> said.
pat reply # 5904395039485093485094850948
<snip showing your butt again>
>
>>> Unlikely. Even kids with autism sometimes go to college. And most kids
>>> are capable of going to college.
>>
>> Oh? Cite evidence, please.
>
> In some communities, more than half the kids go to college. Considering
> that there is very little evidence that people in other communities are
> less intelligent (they just happen to have the wrong color skin or the
> wrong ethnic background or not enough money), people in other communities
> can achieve just as much as people in the better off communities.
> Therefore, I beleive that most people have the intelligence to go to
> college.
Nothing about kids with autism going to college there. You got a bit windy,
Jeff.
>>>>>> Cliantro and chlorella are basically food,
>>>>>> not medicines. An honest pediatrician cannot
>>>>>> stop you from trying this, anymore than
>>>>>> they can stop you from feeding your
>>>>>> child spinach and apples.
>>>>>
>>>>> But an honest pediatician would tell you you are wasting your time.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong, that would be lying.
>>>
>>> Provide me with the peer-reviewed evidence that cliantro and chlorella
>>> really does anything to help kids with autism.
>>
>> I have provided you with truth about peer-reviewed. You have a closed
>> mind.
>
> You have provided me with opinion about peer-review. And a losy one at
> that.
No, that's just an *organized medicine* opinion.
There's been plenty of other articles posted about peer review.
YOU deny them ALL.
>>>>>> Let us say you did this for a month, and
>>>>>> nothing happened. You are no worse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And if you did this for a month, and if you see
>>>>>> a "shock to the system" recovery, what have
>>>>>> you gained?
>>>>>
>>>>> Except that mercury is NOT the cause of autism.
>>>>
>>>> ZZzz.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, Jeff, NEWFLASH, mice are used for research.
>>>
>>> I am quite well aware of that.
>>
>> Uh huh. Sure you are.
>
> I have seen mice used for immunological research.
>
>> *Should I ever get a pet female rat, I will be sure to take this into
>> account*
>> .
>> *If I ever get mice, I will be sure to not vaccinate them*.
>
> Correct. I won't vaccination my mice.
>
>>>
>>> Copyrighted material deleted.
>>
>>> Jeff
>>
>> Study restored:
>
> Copyright material deleted again. People who wish to see it can easily
> find it.
>
> Jeff
Find it where, Jeff??
I guess, you aren't even polite enough to post the URL?
How rude!
http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
Jeff
>
> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:_FiOe.73$_84...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>> news:w0dOe.272249$_o.52148@attbi_s71...
>>>
>>> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:wdbOe.9680$ns....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>>
>>>> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:5maOe.269691$x96.156297@attbi_s72...
>>>
>>> <snip Jeff showing his butt?
>>>>
>>>>> If mercury is the culprit, and you do NOT try
>>>>> a cure, you have hurt your child's future.
>>>>
>>>> Considering all of the evidence that autism is NOT caused by mercury,
>>>> this is a huge "if."
>>>
>>>
>>> It is peoples' children!!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>> Consider ALL.
>>
>> I am considering this. I am also considering that you are exposing
>> children to an unproven treatment that will waste time, money and effort,
>> with absolutely no evidence that it will do any good.
>
> Wrong as usual.
Evidence to support your claim, please. Saying I am wrong is not helpful.
> And there is no evidence that the treatment is even safe.
That is correct.
> Wrong as usual.
That is incorrect.
>>
>> Rather than waste efforts on this stupid treatment,
>
> It isn't stupid.
Let's see: It doesn't work, there is no evidence that the thing that it is
trying do to (reduce mercury) has anything to do with autism, and the
treatment has minimal effect on mercury levels in the blood.
> it makes much more sense to concentrate on things that have been shown to
> work.
>
> Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
Not knowing what *you* mean by "organized medicine," I can't agree or
disagree with this comment. However, my sense to follow the evidence.
> Like the statement made above.
Exactly, my statements are based on the evidence.
>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let us find out the risk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was found in Japan that cilantro can
>>>>>>> chelate mercury. Reports also say that
>>>>>>> chlorella can help in the chelation process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peer-reviewed references that they actually help when given as
>>>>>> directed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Too bad *organized medicine* is so far outdated, they don't know the
>>>>> simple things.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.drlaurathompson.com/scicnhealthart.htm#Heavy%20Metal%20Toxicity
>>>>
>>>> The reason they don't know these simple things is that these simple
>>>> things are false. Heavy metal poisoning does not cause ADHD or autism.
>>>
>>> You are in denial, Jeff.
>>>
>>> http://www.healingwithnutrition.com/adisease/add-adhd/toxicexposure.html
>>>
>>> http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller14.html
>>>
>>> http://www.testfoundation.org/thimerosal.htm
>>>
>>> http://www.testfoundation.org/aluminumvaccines.htm
>>
>> The first site, whether you realize it or not, is a commercial site
>> trying to sell a product.
>
> Health Articles by Dr. Laura Thompson
>>
>> The testing foundation sites don't work, at least on my computer.
>
> http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/congressacts.htm
>
> Try that.
I am quite well aware of the garbage that Dan Burton is spreading. Thanks.
>>
>> Look at the low quality of references on the second site.
>
> What *low quality* would that be?
The Congressional Record on Dan Burton's hearings. Dan Burton has concluded
that his grandson was hurt by vaccines. Not very objective testimony.
Safeminds is not an organization known to be openminded. Clarkson's article
doesn't talk about autism. Baylock is a quack.
> Many of which were discredited
>
> Discredited by whom?
Scientists.
> Donald Miller is a cardiac surgeon and Professor of Surgery at the
> University of Washington in Seattle
Some doctor. Look at the low quality of his references.
> and few, if any, are from the peer-reviewed research.
>
> Back to peer-reveiwed again, Jeff??
considering that is the standard in science, yes.
>
> You sound like a broken record.
Only because I expect quality references.
I never claimed there was. I said that most kids have the ability to go to
college.
>>>>>>> Cliantro and chlorella are basically food,
>>>>>>> not medicines. An honest pediatrician cannot
>>>>>>> stop you from trying this, anymore than
>>>>>>> they can stop you from feeding your
>>>>>>> child spinach and apples.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But an honest pediatician would tell you you are wasting your time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong, that would be lying.
>>>>
>>>> Provide me with the peer-reviewed evidence that cliantro and chlorella
>>>> really does anything to help kids with autism.
>>>
>>> I have provided you with truth about peer-reviewed. You have a closed
>>> mind.
>>
>> You have provided me with opinion about peer-review. And a losy one at
>> that.
>
> No, that's just an *organized medicine* opinion.
I am sorry, but I don't know what you mean by "organized medicine." I am not
part of the AMA, AAP or any medical group, except for some science groups.
Anyway, your opinion about peer-review, I am sure is not an opinion of
"organized medicine." My opinion is *my* own opinion. If what you think of
as organized medicine agrees with it, so be it. By it is my own opinion. If
you disagree, back your claim.
> There's been plenty of other articles posted about peer review.
>
> YOU deny them ALL.
Sorry, I have not read all of the articles. I don't deny any of them. I
either agree with them or not. In the case of the article in this thread, I
disagree with it.
(...)
>> Copyright material deleted again. People who wish to see it can easily
>> find it.
>>
>> Jeff
>
> Find it where, Jeff??
By looking at the thread.
> I guess, you aren't even polite enough to post the URL?
Why would I? The URL is available in the thread.
(...)
Jeff
LadyLollipop
Correction:
mike
> There is no conclusive evidence that autism is caused by vaccines. There
> are studies that show autism is genetic:
>
The presence of genetic factor does not rule out environmental factors.
There are instances of identical twins only one of whom is autistic, and
that is an unmistakable proof the existence of environmental factors.
And it seems that "thimerosal-is-safe" crowd is not interested in
identifying these factors.
LadyLollipop
>
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:r8tOe.273601$_o.159948@attbi_s71...
>>
>> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:_FiOe.73$_84...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>>> news:w0dOe.272249$_o.52148@attbi_s71...
>>>>
>>>> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:wdbOe.9680$ns....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:5maOe.269691$x96.156297@attbi_s72...
>>>>
>>>> <snip Jeff showing his butt?
>>>>>
>>>>>> If mercury is the culprit, and you do NOT try
>>>>>> a cure, you have hurt your child's future.
>>>>>
>>>>> Considering all of the evidence that autism is NOT caused by mercury,
>>>>> this is a huge "if."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is peoples' children!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>
>>>> Consider ALL.
>>>
>>> I am considering this. I am also considering that you are exposing
>>> children to an unproven treatment that will waste time, money and
>>> effort, with absolutely no evidence that it will do any good.
>>
>> Wrong as usual.
>
> Evidence to support your claim, please. Saying I am wrong is not helpful.
You have that backwads, yet again. YOU made the claim it was a quote:
unproven treatment that will waste time, money and effort,
with absolutely no evidence that it will do any good.
Evidence to support your claim, please
>
>> And there is no evidence that the treatment is even safe.
>
> That is correct.
>
>> Wrong as usual.
>
> That is incorrect.
Evidence to support your claim, please
>>> Rather than waste efforts on this stupid treatment,
>>
>> It isn't stupid.
>
> Let's see: It doesn't work, there is no evidence that the thing that it is
> trying do to (reduce mercury)
One thing at a time.
Evidence to support your claim, please
has anything to do with autism,
ZZzz.
http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/congressacts.htm
http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
and the treatment has minimal effect on mercury levels in the blood.
OOPS.
Having trouble keeping your lies straight, Jeff?
*It doesn't work, there is no evidence that the thing that it is
> trying do to (reduce mercury)*
Uh, hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
>
>> it makes much more sense to concentrate on things that have been shown to
>> work.
>>
>> Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
>
> Not knowing what *you* mean by "organized medicine,"
ZZzz.
You are indeed a slow learner, as I have explained it numerous times.
I can't agree or disagree with this comment. However, my sense to follow
the evidence.
What evidence?
>
>> Like the statement made above.
>
> Exactly, my statements are based on the evidence.
OH?
Not one single word of evidence, ALL opinion.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let us find out the risk.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It was found in Japan that cilantro can
>>>>>>>> chelate mercury. Reports also say that
>>>>>>>> chlorella can help in the chelation process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peer-reviewed references that they actually help when given as
>>>>>>> directed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Too bad *organized medicine* is so far outdated, they don't know the
>>>>>> simple things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.drlaurathompson.com/scicnhealthart.htm#Heavy%20Metal%20Toxicity
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason they don't know these simple things is that these simple
>>>>> things are false. Heavy metal poisoning does not cause ADHD or autism.
>>>>
>>>> You are in denial, Jeff.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.healingwithnutrition.com/adisease/add-adhd/toxicexposure.html
>>>>
>>>> http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller14.html
>>>>
>>>> http://www.testfoundation.org/thimerosal.htm
>>>>
>>>> http://www.testfoundation.org/aluminumvaccines.htm
>>>
>>> The first site, whether you realize it or not, is a commercial site
>>> trying to sell a product.
>>
>> Health Articles by Dr. Laura Thompson
>>>
>>> The testing foundation sites don't work, at least on my computer.
>>
>> http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/congressacts.htm
>>
>> Try that.
>
> I am quite well aware of the garbage that Dan Burton is spreading. Thanks.
Oh, that won't work, Jeff, a letter to the president from Dr. Mumper, is NOT
garbage from Dan Burton.
The Committee will hear testimony from the following witnesses:
PANEL I
Dr. Jeff Bradstreet, M.D., F.A.A.F.P., Medical Doctor and Founder of the
International Child Development Resource Center, and an autism parent, Palm
Bay, Florida.
Dr. Andrew Wakefield, M.D., Research Director, International Child
Development Resource Center, Palm Bay, Florida, and Surrey, England.
Dr. Arthur Krigsman, M.D., Pediatric Gastrointestinal Consultant, Lenox Hill
Hospital, and Clinical Assistant Professor, Department of Pediatrics, New
York University School of Medicine, New York, New York.
Dr. Vera Stejskal, Associate Professor of Immunology, University of
Stockholm and MELISA MEDICA foundation, Stockholm, Sweden.
Dr. Walter Spitzer, M.D., M.P.H., F.R.C.P.C. Emeritus Professor of
Epidemiology at McGill University.
PANEL II
Dr. Roger Bernier, Associate Director for Science, Office of the Director,
Center for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia.
Dr. Robert Chen, Chief of Vaccine Safety and Development at the National
Immunization Program and Associate Director for Science and Public Health,
National Center on Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, Center for
Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia.
Dr. Frank DeStefano, Medical Epidemiologist, National Center on Birth
Defects and Developmental Disabilities, Center for Disease Control and
Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia.
These people are NOT Dan Burton.
God Bless Dan Brton for his part in:
GOVERNMENT REFORM!!!!!!!
I don't suppose you bothered to read any other research on that website?
I though not.
>
>>>
>>> Look at the low quality of references on the second site.
>>
>> What *low quality* would that be?
OOPS.
You forgot to answer.
>
> The Congressional Record on Dan Burton's hearings. Dan Burton has
> concluded that his grandson was hurt by vaccines.
GOD BLESS HIM!!
What *IF* your grandson, God forbid suddenly, got autism AFTER he was
vaccinated?????
What would you think Jeff?
>Not very objective testimony.
ABSOLUTELY objective!!!!!!!
Takes real audacity for pro-vac liars to try to discredit parents and
grandparents!
> Safeminds is not an organization known to be openminded. Clarkson's
> article doesn't talk about autism.
What does it talk about, Jeff?
Baylock is a quack.
Russell L. Blaylock, M.D. A board-certified neurosurgeon.
For a comprehensive review, with 167 scientific references, on how vaccines
damage infants' and soldiers' brains (Gulf War Syndrome) when given too
close together, see Dr. Blaylock's "Interaction of Cytokines, Excitotoxins,
Reactive Nitrogen and Oxygen Species in Autism Spectrum Disorders" in the
Journal of the American Nutraceutical Association (JANA 2003;6[4]:21-35).
See also his study, "Chronic Microglial Activation and Excitotoxicity
Secondary to Excessive Immune Stimulation: Possible Factors in GulfWar
Syndrome and Autism" in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons
(JAPS 2004;9[2]:46-52).
ONLY 167 scientific references,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
>
>> Many of which were discredited
>>
>> Discredited by whom?
>
> Scientists.
Cite, Please? Proof?
>
>> Donald Miller is a cardiac surgeon and Professor of Surgery at the
>> University of Washington in Seattle
>
> Some doctor. Look at the low quality of his references.
You made the claim, YOU prove it!!!
>
>> and few, if any, are from the peer-reviewed research.
>>
>> Back to peer-reveiwed again, Jeff??
>
> considering that is the standard in science, yes.
>
>>
>> You sound like a broken record.
>
> Only because I expect quality references.
Do show us the * low quality of references*.
>
>> See:
>>
>> Correction:
ZZzz.
You are a slow learned. I have explained it many times.
I am not part of the AMA, AAP or any medical group, except for some science
groups.
I didn't say you were.
I said, you were brainwashed by what they teach.
I have explained numerous times, long before Rich Shewmmaker started with
his interference.
>
> Anyway, your opinion about peer-review, I am sure is not an opinion of
> "organized medicine."
No, it's not just my opinion.
My opinion is *my* own opinion. If what you think of
> as organized medicine agrees with it, so be it. By it is my own opinion.
> If you disagree, back your claim.
I don't need to, it is the same opinion of any and all who are brainwashed
by *organized medicine and is very evident.
>
>> There's been plenty of other articles posted about peer review.
>>
>> YOU deny them ALL.
>
> Sorry, I have not read all of the articles. I don't deny any of them.
You have denied EVERY single one that has been posted that I have read.
I either agree with them or not. In the case of the article in this
thread, I
> disagree with it.
>
<Snip showing your butt again>.
Surprise, surprise, you disagree, with any and all that is NOT endorsed by
*organized medicine*
>
>>> Copyright material deleted again. People who wish to see it can easily
>>> find it.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>
>> Find it where, Jeff??
>
> By looking at the thread.
>
>> I guess, you aren't even polite enough to post the URL?
>
> Why would I? The URL is available in the thread.
>
><snip>
>
> Jeff
How VERY rude of you!
It is concluded, you don't want others to read it!
Unlike, I will be polite and post it for all to read.
http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
>
>
David Wright
You're not providing any information -- just dark hints that you know
The Truth.
Clinton
mike wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:00:55 -0700, HCN wrote:
Just some comments
>
> > There is no conclusive evidence that autism is caused by vaccines. There
> > are studies that show autism is genetic:
> >
>
> The presence of genetic factor does not rule out environmental factors.
> There are instances of identical twins only one of whom is autistic, and
> that is an unmistakable proof the existence of environmental factors.
Actually I remember reading a theory that the reasons twins
occur is because of a genetic defect. Somehow a replica of the
"defective " cell is formed with the defect corrected, i.e. the
twin. On the other hand maybe certain countries have more genes
which are suseptable to certain environmental factors.
Have they ever done a study of autisim rates in different
ethnic groups in the US?
It would also be interesting to compare the rates now in all
countries that don't use thimersol with those that do. I wasn't
able to find the current rate in Canada after searching for
a bit.
Jeff
"Clinton" <clin...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:1124773508.6...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> mike wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:00:55 -0700, HCN wrote:
>
> Just some comments
>
>>
>> > There is no conclusive evidence that autism is caused by vaccines.
>> > There
>> > are studies that show autism is genetic:
>> >
>>
>> The presence of genetic factor does not rule out environmental factors.
>> There are instances of identical twins only one of whom is autistic, and
>> that is an unmistakable proof the existence of environmental factors.
>
> Actually I remember reading a theory that the reasons twins
> occur is because of a genetic defect. Somehow a replica of the
> "defective " cell is formed with the defect corrected, i.e. the
> twin. On the other hand maybe certain countries have more genes
> which are suseptable to certain environmental factors.
Actually, it has to do with the egg dividing into two or the early groups of
cells splitting into two groups.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/adam-200116.htm
Jeff
jdeer...@yahoo.com
> <jdeer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1124666919....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > CWatters wrote:
> > > <jdeer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1124629490....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > > > It was found in Japan that cilantro can
> > > > chelate mercury.
> > >
> > > What else does it chelate?
> >
> > Other heavy metals, I believe.
>
> If it's so powerful that it can chelate mercury might it also make you
> deficient in minerals like zinc?
Possible, but I doubt any serious deficiencies would result.
The reason is it's been used as food for quite a
while -- so any big problems would have been discovered.
Over time, societies learn things like balancing
proteins (e.g. rice and beans, bread and cheese) without
knowing the detailed chemistry of it. So if cilantro
had harmful impacts, it wouldn't be used heavily
in various countries around the world.
Though some more research into it surely could
answer these questions better.
Mark Probert
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:00:55 -0700, HCN wrote:
>
>
>>There is no conclusive evidence that autism is caused by vaccines. There
>>are studies that show autism is genetic:
>>
>
>
> The presence of genetic factor does not rule out environmental factors.
true. Each environmental factor has to be systematically ruled in or out.
> There are instances of identical twins only one of whom is autistic, and
> that is an unmistakable proof the existence of environmental factors.
Actually, no. If the twins live in the same environment, then they are
exposed to the same environmental risk factors. To prove YOUR claim, you
would have to do a study of twins who were separated at birth and grew
up in totally different environments.
> And it seems that "thimerosal-is-safe" crowd is not interested in
> identifying these factors.
Strawman. No one claimed that "thimerosal is safe". What is claimed,
since it is proven, is that there is no link between the tiny amounts of
thimerosal used in vaccines and autism.
Mark Probert
> CWatters wrote:
>
>><jdeer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:1124666919....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>CWatters wrote:
>>>
>>>><jdeer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:1124629490....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>> > It was found in Japan that cilantro can
>>>>
>>>>>chelate mercury.
>>>>
>>>>What else does it chelate?
>>>
>>>Other heavy metals, I believe.
>>
>>If it's so powerful that it can chelate mercury might it also make you
>>deficient in minerals like zinc?
>
>
> Possible, but I doubt any serious deficiencies would result.
>
> The reason is it's been used as food for quite a
> while -- so any big problems would have been discovered.
Bad thinking. You are advocating that it be used as a chemical, in
amounts way beyond that used as a food. Thus, if it were to be able to
chelate one heavy metal, all are at risk of being chelated.
jdeer...@yahoo.com
> Do you have a treatment for peopple whose hopes you falsely raise?
Non-fatal. Doesn't even significantly or permanently
lower quality of life. And well compensated by even
just a single individual who I might be able to help
by posting this.
> You see, I have two special needs kids, and, for several years, we went
> through lots of bullshit to find something to 'cure' them. We eventually
> found that there ain't no such thing, and that the commercial and
> noncommercial scumbags who promote these are truly just that, scumbags.
But conventional medicine doesn't help you either -- why aren't
you equally pissed off by that?
Fact is, if you are desperate about something, there WILL be
people out to get a quick buck out of you. I wish there
was something to be done about it. We have some laws, but
they don't work too well.
There do exist alt-med peddlers who are in
this category. But before you consider that to be
a validation of anything, note that I believe that
a lot of conventional medicine also falls in the same
category, only better organized and with less
invididual intentionality involved. In other words,
in the case of alt-med, the person you are involved
may directly know he/she is cheating. In the
case of conventional medicine, the person you
are involved with directly (e.g. "Jeff") doesn't
know he/she is cheating. But he/she is being
a pawn of someone who does.
Another fact is, nobody (alt and conventional)
may know what's really wrong with your kids.
In which case, you should have been pushing
for more open research. Does the research
time wasted trying to protect a particular
preservative agent help anybody? What does
it gain, except liability protection? Why
would you support liability-protection research?
In any case, if you have special-need kids, if they
were born in the 90's and did the standard vaccination
schedule, I would feed them heavy dosages of
cilantro/chlorella for a month just to see what
happens. In the worst case, you will see some hopes
shattered, and if as a parent you can't deal with
that, I am afraid that doesn't qualify you as
being a very motivated parent.
Though of course, I am just saying that, and
you have no way to verify that I am not
a paid agent of the organized cilantro-chlorella
growers of USA -- I can't help you there.
At some point, you have to depend upon
your own honest unbiased judgement.
jdeer...@yahoo.com
>From the web, I see one comment that some chlorella
samples were indeed found to have picked up mercury from
the water. Another comment was that the picked-up mercury
levels were still below the binding capacity, and it would
continue to bind rather than release.
I think there is a need to find chlorella that
grew in waters relatively free of contamination.
jdeer...@yahoo.com
> Bad thinking. You are advocating that it be used as a chemical, in
> amounts way beyond that used as a food. Thus, if it were to be able to
> chelate one heavy metal, all are at risk of being chelated.
Not "way beyond". We are talking 1 - 1.5 tablespoon full
or so in a day, and I have had Mexican salsa that was
really heavy on cilantro and might easily have had
that much in a bowl.
People buy cilantro in bunches, and various recipes
arond the world might have hefty amounts. I have
seen no warnings about anybody overdosing on it,
from any source.
I am indeed recommending heavy dosages to be
kept up for a while -- but I am not recommending
to continue it beyond a month if no serious and
visible benefit is seen. If serious and visible
benefit is indeed seen, I would recommend
supplementing with multivitamins/minerals
before continuing, just to be on the safe side.
Clinton
Jeff wrote:
> "Clinton" <clin...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:1124773508.6...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > occur is because of a genetic defect. Somehow a replica of the
> > "defective " cell is formed with the defect corrected, i.e. the
> > twin. On the other hand maybe certain countries have more genes
> > which are suseptable to certain environmental factors.
>
> Actually, it has to do with the egg dividing into two or the early groups of
> cells splitting into two groups.
>
> http://health.howstuffworks.com/adam-200116.htm
>
> Jeff
I read this theory a long time ago in discover or something like that.
The point is that somehow a defect in the initial cell can,
according to this theory (IIRC), be corrected by splitting the cell.
Maybe there is a particular cell within the early cell groups with a
gene that is defective. This defective cell is then ejected and splits
again forming the twin. Or else the process of copying a cell itself
has a way to correct the defect. The idea was that twins are mother
natures way of insuring that at least one twin is completely healthy.
Clinton
I agree there is no harm in trying but having dealt with
Hg myself and other adults that have I can't say that
cilantro of chlorella is that effective. I could feel the
effect of dmsa (not necessarily good). Didn't touch Dmps (which is
dangerous). NAC is also helpful to a lot of Hg toxic adults and it did
help me some. got no benifit from chlorella. I see Andy Culters's book
actually says that cilantro and chlorella is contraindicated (you can
read more about his views on Hg and
treatments on the yahoo mercury-autism list) but maybe cilantro and
chlorella do have useful toxin scavanging abilites though chemically
they are not true chelators like dmsa dmps and AlA.
CWatters
> says it is harmful.
Some web sites say Chlorella has a lot of sulphur in it - might be worth
avoiding if you have asthma.
LadyLollipop
"Mark Probert" <markp...@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
news:eVEOe.7687$KX7....@fe10.lga...
WRONG.
CLEARLY there is a link.
http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/asdexperts.htm
Rich
>
>
> Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
>
>
> No, that's just an *organized medicine* opinion.
>
There is no such thing as *organized medicine*.
--
--Rich
Recommended websites:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
http://www.acahf.org.au
http://www.quackwatch.org/
http://www.skeptic.com/
http://www.csicop.org/
PeterB
Rich wrote:
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:r8tOe.273601$_o.159948@attbi_s71...
> >
> >
> > Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
> >
>
> >
> > No, that's just an *organized medicine* opinion.
> >
>
> There is no such thing as *organized medicine*.
I prefer the term "monopoly medicine," but it's the same thing.
PeterB
LadyLollipop
"Rich" <jos...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:spJOe.4251$Q82....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:r8tOe.273601$_o.159948@attbi_s71...
>>
>>
>> Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
>>
>
>>
>> No, that's just an *organized medicine* opinion.
>>
>
> There is no such thing as *organized medicine*.
Searched all groups Results 1 - 10 of 17 for joshew@ hawaii . rr .
com There is no such thing as *organized medicine *. (0.16 seconds)
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 9,110,000 for organized medicine. (0.41
seconds)
Proving Rich Shewmaker is a REPEATED liar.
>
>
> --Rich
<snip proven lying websites>
>
>
Rich
Your "explanations" have been vague and contradictory, and you have NEVER
provided a simple DEFINITION of the term. It seems that YOU are the slow
learner here.
>>>
>>> No, that's just an *organized medicine* opinion.
>>
>> I am sorry, but I don't know what you mean by "organized medicine."
>
> ZZzz.
>
> You are a slow learned. I have explained it many times.
ZZzzing again, miss slow learner? You still haven't defined "*organized
medicine*" and your whine that you have "explained" it is bullshit.
>
> I am not part of the AMA, AAP or any medical group, except for some
> science groups.
>
> I didn't say you were.
>
> I said, you were brainwashed by what they teach.
And just exactly who are "they"?
>
> I have explained numerous times, long before Rich Shewmmaker started with
> his interference.
If you think you have DEFINED it, just show us.
>>
>> Anyway, your opinion about peer-review, I am sure is not an opinion of
>> "organized medicine."
>
> No, it's not just my opinion.
>
> My opinion is *my* own opinion. If what you think of
>> as organized medicine agrees with it, so be it. By it is my own opinion.
>> If you disagree, back your claim.
>
> I don't need to, it is the same opinion of any and all who are brainwashed
> by *organized medicine and is very evident.
It is the "opinion" of many people that the sun will come up again tomorrow.
Does that mean they are all brainwashed? People whose thought processes are
based on reality tend to come to the same conclusions. It's the victims of
magical thinking who succumb to brainwashing.
>>
>>> There's been plenty of other articles posted about peer review.
>>>
>>> YOU deny them ALL.
>>
>> Sorry, I have not read all of the articles. I don't deny any of them.
>
> You have denied EVERY single one that has been posted that I have read.
>
> I either agree with them or not. In the case of the article in this
> thread, I
>> disagree with it.
>>
> <Snip showing your butt again>.
>
> Surprise, surprise, you disagree, with any and all that is NOT endorsed by
> *organized medicine*
There's that term again. I'm sure you cannot post ANY referrence showing
that ANYTHING has the "endorsement" of *organized medicine*, because that
organization simply doesn't exist. Nobody who has prepared an article for
publication sends a copy to *organized medicine* for a stamp of approval.
Nor do publishers of scientific journals need to have an okay from
*organized medicine* to publish. You are a very silly lady, Jan.
Rich
>
> "Rich" <jos...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:spJOe.4251$Q82....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>>
>> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>> news:r8tOe.273601$_o.159948@attbi_s71...
>>>
>>>
>>> Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> No, that's just an *organized medicine* opinion.
>>>
>>
>> There is no such thing as *organized medicine*.
>
> Searched all groups Results 1 - 10 of 17 for joshew@ hawaii . rr .
> com There is no such thing as *organized medicine *. (0.16 seconds)
>
>
> Web Results 1 - 10 of about 9,110,000 for organized medicine. (0.41
> seconds)
>
I did not examine all nine million hits, but those on the first few pages
use "organized medicine" to refer to one of the official associations of
physicians, usually the AMA, or they are using the term as you do as an
undefined epithet referring to any healthcare or science associated people
with whom they disagree. The fact that there are lots more bigots out there
does not excuse YOUR bigotry, nor does it relieve you of the responsibility
for defining the words and terms that you use, especially if you are using
them to denigrate others.
Where is that definition, Jan?
LadyLollipop
----snip----
>
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:0GwOe.58341$084.16454@attbi_s22
>
"Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
ZZzz.
http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/congressacts.htm
http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
OOPS.
Uh, hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
ZZzz.
OH?
PANEL I
PANEL II
GOVERNMENT REFORM!!!!!!!
OOPS.
GOD BLESS HIM!!
>Not very objective testimony.
ABSOLUTELY objective!!!!!!!
Baylock is a quack.
ONLY 167 scientific references,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
>> No, that's just an *organized medicine* opinion.
>
> I am sorry, but I don't know what you mean by "organized medicine."
ZZzz.
You are a slow learned. I have explained it many times.
I am not part of the AMA, AAP or any medical group, except for some science
groups.
I didn't say you were.
I said, you were brainwashed by what they teach.
I have explained numerous times, long before Rich Shewmmaker started with
his interference.
>
> Anyway, your opinion about peer-review, I am sure is not an opinion of
> "organized medicine."
No, it's not just my opinion.
My opinion is *my* own opinion. If what you think of
> as organized medicine agrees with it, so be it. By it is my own opinion.
> If you disagree, back your claim.
I don't need to, it is the same opinion of any and all who are brainwashed
by *organized medicine and is very evident.
>
>> There's been plenty of other articles posted about peer review.
>>
>> YOU deny them ALL.
>
> Sorry, I have not read all of the articles. I don't deny any of them.
You have denied EVERY single one that has been posted that I have read.
I either agree with them or not. In the case of the article in this
thread, I
> disagree with it.
>
<Snip showing your butt again>.
Surprise, surprise, you disagree, with any and all that is NOT endorsed by
*organized medicine*
>
LadyLollipop
>
---snip---
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:_yJOe.275077$_o.41991@attbi_s71...
>>
>> "Rich" <jos...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:spJOe.4251$Q82....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>>>
>>> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>>> news:r8tOe.273601$_o.159948@attbi_s71...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, that's just an *organized medicine* opinion.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There is no such thing as *organized medicine*.
>>
>> Searched all groups Results 1 - 10 of 17 for joshew@ hawaii . rr .
>> com There is no such thing as *organized medicine *. (0.16 seconds)
Proving Rich Shewmaker is a REPEATED LIAR
>>
>>
>> Web Results 1 - 10 of about 9,110,000 for organized medicine. (0.41
>> seconds)
>>
>
> --
>
>
> --Rich
Jeff
(...)
>> Evidence to support your claim, please. Saying I am wrong is not helpful.
>
> You have that backwads, yet again. YOU made the claim it was a quote:
>
> unproven treatment that will waste time, money and effort,
> with absolutely no evidence that it will do any good.
>
> Evidence to support your claim, please
You got it backwards. You are making a claim that something works. You
prove it.
>>
>>> And there is no evidence that the treatment is even safe.
>>
>> That is correct.
>>
>>> Wrong as usual.
>>
>> That is incorrect.
>
> Evidence to support your claim, please
You're making a claim that something is safe. Back your claim.
>>>> Rather than waste efforts on this stupid treatment,
>>>
>>> It isn't stupid.
>>
>> Let's see: It doesn't work, there is no evidence that the thing that it
>> is trying do to (reduce mercury)
>
> One thing at a time.
>
> Evidence to support your claim, please
Again, you are making a claim that something doesn't work. Perhaps you
misunderstood, and took that as a claim rather an oppurtunity to prove me
wrong.
> has anything to do with autism,
>
> ZZzz.
>
> http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/congressacts.htm
>
> http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
We have already discussed that the congressional testimony is not scientific
evidence and that mice were involved.
> and the treatment has minimal effect on mercury levels in the blood.
>
> OOPS.
>
> Having trouble keeping your lies straight, Jeff?
>
> *It doesn't work, there is no evidence that the thing that it is
>> trying do to (reduce mercury)*
>
> Uh, hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
You're making a claim that a treatment works. Prove it.
>>
>>> it makes much more sense to concentrate on things that have been shown
>>> to work.
>>>
>>> Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
>>
>> Not knowing what *you* mean by "organized medicine,"
>
> ZZzz.
>
> You are indeed a slow learner, as I have explained it numerous times.
No you haven't.
> I can't agree or disagree with this comment. However, my sense to follow
> the evidence.
>
> What evidence?
The evidence available in the scientific literature.
>>
>>> Like the statement made above.
>>
>> Exactly, my statements are based on the evidence.
>
> OH?
>
> Not one single word of evidence, ALL opinion.
You are welcome to think what you want. Of course, you have yet to offer
evidence.
You have your opinion, I have mine.
Jeff
Jeff
>
> "Rich" <jos...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:mJJOe.4325$Q82....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>
> ----snip----
> OOPS.
>
> Having trouble keeping your lies straight, Jeff?
Oops is right. You can't even remember to whom you are replying.
<All but LadyLollipop's intelligent comments snipped>
Jeff
>
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:r8tOe.273601$_o.159948@attbi_s71...
>>
>>
>> Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
>>
>
>>
>> No, that's just an *organized medicine* opinion.
>>
>
> There is no such thing as *organized medicine*.
IIRC, the AMA and American Academy of Pediatrics thinks of themselves are a
large part of organized medicine. Other specialy societies (like ones for
internal medicine, family medicine and urology) probably also think of
themselves as part of organized medicine.
Jeff
LadyLollipop
>
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:FaOOe.61056$084.21048@attbi_s22...
>>
>> "Rich" <jos...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:mJJOe.4325$Q82....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>>
>> ----snip----
> (...)
>
>> OOPS.
>>
>> Having trouble keeping your lies straight, Jeff?
>
> Oops is right. You can't even remember to whom you are replying.
Quite wrong.
Snipped who I was replying to.
Clicked on what *I* said.
>
> <All but LadyLollipop's intelligent comments snipped>
Quite wrote again.
"Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fhvOe.607$FW1...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:r8tOe.273601$_o.159948@attbi_s71...
>>
>> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:_FiOe.73$_84...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>>> news:w0dOe.272249$_o.52148@attbi_s71...
>>>>
>>>> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:wdbOe.9680$ns....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
ZZzz.
http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/congressacts.htm
http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
OOPS.
Having trouble keeping your lies straight, Jeff?
*It doesn't work, there is no evidence that the thing that it is
LadyLollipop
>
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:0GwOe.58341$084.16454@attbi_s22...
> (...)
>
>>> Evidence to support your claim, please. Saying I am wrong is not
>>> helpful.
>>
>> You have that backwads, yet again. YOU made the claim it was a quote:
>>
>> unproven treatment that will waste time, money and effort,
>> with absolutely no evidence that it will do any good.
>>
>> Evidence to support your claim, please
>
> You got it backwards. You are making a claim that something works. You
> prove it.
I made NO claim!
>
>>>
>>>> And there is no evidence that the treatment is even safe.
>>>
>>> That is correct.
>>>
>>>> Wrong as usual.
>>>
>>> That is incorrect.
>>
>> Evidence to support your claim, please
>
> You're making a claim that something is safe. Back your claim.
I made NO claim!
>
>>>>> Rather than waste efforts on this stupid treatment,
>>>>
>>>> It isn't stupid.
>>>
>>> Let's see: It doesn't work, there is no evidence that the thing that it
>>> is trying do to (reduce mercury)
>>
>> One thing at a time.
>>
>> Evidence to support your claim, please
>
> Again, you are making a claim that something doesn't work.
Ummm, no that was YOU.
Best to keep track of what YOU said, Jeff!
Perhaps you misunderstood, and took that as a claim rather an oppurtunity
to prove me wrong.
Best to keep track of what YOU said, Jeff!
>> has anything to do with autism,
>>
>> ZZzz.
>>
>> http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/congressacts.htm
>>
>> http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
>
> We have already discussed that the congressional testimony.
YOU have tried to trash it.
We did NOT discuss it. I posted the website and the speakers. The issues
were NOT discussed.
is not scientific
> evidence and that mice were involved.
We have already discussed that mice are used for research. Mice being
involved does NOT in any way make it *unscientific*.
>
>> and the treatment has minimal effect on mercury levels in the blood.
>>
>> OOPS.
>>
>> Having trouble keeping your lies straight, Jeff?
>>
>> *It doesn't work, there is no evidence that the thing that it is
>>> trying do to (reduce mercury)*
>>
>> Uh, hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
>
> You're making a claim that a treatment works. Prove it.
I make NO claim!!
>
>>>
>>>> it makes much more sense to concentrate on things that have been shown
>>>> to work.
>>>>
>>>> Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
>>>
>>> Not knowing what *you* mean by "organized medicine,"
>>
>> ZZzz.
>>
>> You are indeed a slow learner, as I have explained it numerous times.
>
> No you haven't.
YES, I have! Back in Feb, 2002.
Post 16.
>
>> I can't agree or disagree with this comment. However, my sense to follow
>> the evidence.
>>
>> What evidence?
>
> The evidence available in the scientific literature.
So you say. Cite? Proof?
>
>>>
>>>> Like the statement made above.
>>>
>>> Exactly, my statements are based on the evidence.
>>
>> OH?
>>
>> Not one single word of evidence, ALL opinion.
>
> You are welcome to think what you want. Of course, you have yet to offer
> evidence.
LOL, and just WHERE is yours?????
David Wright
>>
>> > Other heavy metals, I believe. (But according
>> > to various sources, the US thimerosal removal
>> > wasn't actually performed in 1999 as advertised, so
>> > there is no need yet to look for other agents.)
>>
>> Other than something you found under a rock, got proof?
>
>I have information from sources that I consider
>reliable, to satisfy me there is something amiss.
>I do not care to share it for my own reasons.
>
>But you can find some links from the web as well,
>if you search. Other than that, you can choose
>to believe what you want, I am not interested in
>convincing you of anything further here.
Good thing, too, because you sure aren't going to do it like this.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you meet the Buddha on the net, put him in your killfile."
-- Anon.
Mark Probert
> Good point. Chlorella is not something that people grow in their gardens,
> tho. Cilantro (Chinese parsley) is.
>
> Maybe cilantro being an accumulator substance for mercury when ground up &
> put in a capsule (is that how it's taken?) does not necessarily mean that
> it accumulates mecury when growing. I think I'm going to look this up.
>
IOW, you suggested using a substance where you did not know what al the
ramifications of it use could be.
Thank you for a fantastic demonstration of the fallacy of the "try
it...you'll like it" testimonial argument.
jdeer...@yahoo.com
> Majusmaximum wrote:
> > Good point. Chlorella is not something that people grow in their gardens,
> > tho. Cilantro (Chinese parsley) is.
> >
> > Maybe cilantro being an accumulator substance for mercury when ground up &
> > put in a capsule (is that how it's taken?) does not necessarily mean that
> > it accumulates mecury when growing. I think I'm going to look this up.
> >
>
> IOW, you suggested using a substance where you did not know what al the
> ramifications of it use could be.
You may have the posters mixed up, I suggested it.
> Thank you for a fantastic demonstration of the fallacy of the "try
> it...you'll like it" testimonial argument.
"...all the ramifications...", eh?
So you think you have other options that
are different in actuality? May I suggest
that's a delusion?
Moreover, following your rules, even a simple suggestion
of "drink water every day" becomes some sort of "fallacy
exposed", because the suggestor has no clue whether
your water supply is tainted.
Majusmaximum
the poster of the chlorella/cilantro recommendation. He was attributing
that to moi. A fate worse than death.
I liked your comparison to the recommendation to drink water [without
first seeing a Certificate of Purity from a certified laboratory for that
water.] Personally, I just use my instincts, do some asking around, do
some reading, etc. before taking a supplement or herb.
I do not depend on randomized, controlled, double-blind studies for every
damn little thing in life. Do YOU, Marky? What about that H2O? What
about your morning porridge?
Mark Probert
> Mark Probert wrote:
>
>>Majusmaximum wrote:
>>
>>>Good point. Chlorella is not something that people grow in their gardens,
>>>tho. Cilantro (Chinese parsley) is.
>>>
>>>Maybe cilantro being an accumulator substance for mercury when ground up &
>>>put in a capsule (is that how it's taken?) does not necessarily mean that
>>>it accumulates mecury when growing. I think I'm going to look this up.
>>>
>>
>>IOW, you suggested using a substance where you did not know what al the
>>ramifications of it use could be.
>
>
> You may have the posters mixed up, I suggested it.
>
>
>>Thank you for a fantastic demonstration of the fallacy of the "try
>>it...you'll like it" testimonial argument.
>
>
> "...all the ramifications...", eh?
>
> So you think you have other options that
> are different in actuality?
Strawman.
May I suggest
> that's a delusion?
No.
> Moreover, following your rules, even a simple suggestion
> of "drink water every day" becomes some sort of "fallacy
> exposed", because the suggestor has no clue whether
> your water supply is tainted.
Not really, but beleive that if it makes you feel better.
Mark Probert
>>
>>
>>>Other heavy metals, I believe. (But according
>>>to various sources, the US thimerosal removal
>>>wasn't actually performed in 1999 as advertised, so
>>>there is no need yet to look for other agents.)
>>
>>Other than something you found under a rock, got proof?
>
>
> I have information from sources that I consider
> reliable, to satisfy me there is something amiss.
> I do not care to share it for my own reasons.
OK, so you admit that you do not have verifiable sources. Fair enough. I
am used to hearing idle speculation.
> But you can find some links from the web as well,
> if you search. Other than that, you can choose
> to believe what you want, I am not interested in
> convincing you of anything further here.
See above.
Mark Probert
> If that is the truth that you have 2 special needs kids - and I don't know
> who to trust any more - then you must have your hands full. And I am so
> sorry that there has been no "cure" so far, in your case.
>
> I would only ask that you hold orthodox medical practitioners and drug
> companies to the same standards that you expect of others - ordinary folk
> who are unwilling to ever, ever give up on their own or their children's
> health. Never give up.
I have always advocated one single standard: safe and effective,
regardless of whether it is alternative or pharmaceutical.
Mark Probert
>
>
> Non-fatal. Doesn't even significantly or permanently
> lower quality of life.
Perhaps your quality of life. However, are you aware of the effect on
the quality of life of the victims of the cycle of false hopes? Have you
lived it?
And well compensated by even
> just a single individual who I might be able to help
> by posting this.
This is not about your quality of life.
>>You see, I have two special needs kids, and, for several years, we went
>>through lots of bullshit to find something to 'cure' them. We eventually
>>found that there ain't no such thing, and that the commercial and
>>noncommercial scumbags who promote these are truly just that, scumbags.
>
> But conventional medicine doesn't help you either -- why aren't
> you equally pissed off by that?
Because Real Medicine never raised my hopes falsely. At every turn we
were told that there may be some effect, etc.
> Fact is, if you are desperate about something, there WILL be
> people out to get a quick buck out of you. I wish there
> was something to be done about it. We have some laws, but
> they don't work too well.
Agreed.
> There do exist alt-med peddlers who are in
> this category. But before you consider that to be
> a validation of anything, note that I believe that
> a lot of conventional medicine also falls in the same
> category, only better organized and with less
> invididual intentionality involved. In other words,
> in the case of alt-med, the person you are involved
> may directly know he/she is cheating. In the
> case of conventional medicine, the person you
> are involved with directly (e.g. "Jeff") doesn't
> know he/she is cheating. But he/she is being
> a pawn of someone who does.
Disagree with your characterization of RealMedicine.
> Another fact is, nobody (alt and conventional)
> may know what's really wrong with your kids.
It was quite clear. We were extraordinarily careful in diagnosis. My
older son was diagnosed with MY protocol which the American Academy of
Pediatrics adopted a decade later.
> In which case, you should have been pushing
> for more open research.
Always have.
Does the research
> time wasted trying to protect a particular
> preservative agent help anybody?
You make a fundamental assumption, i.e. the purpose of the research is
to protect. I disagree as I do not buy into these extensive consipiracy
arguments where it would take a huge number of people to actually
effectuate the conspiracy.
What does
> it gain, except liability protection? Why
> would you support liability-protection research?
The gain is that it removed a possible cause of autism and allowed
researchers to proceed to more productive lines of inquiry. That is a
huge gain.
> In any case, if you have special-need kids, if they
> were born in the 90's and did the standard vaccination
> schedule, I would feed them heavy dosages of
> cilantro/chlorella for a month just to see what
> happens.
My kids are NOT test subjects. We test subjected them enough when they
were younger and they resented it.
In the worst case, you will see some hopes
> shattered, and if as a parent you can't deal with
> that, I am afraid that doesn't qualify you as
> being a very motivated parent.
You have no idea of our history and the efforts we have put in.
Obviously, you have no first hand experience in this matter.
> Though of course, I am just saying that, and
> you have no way to verify that I am not
> a paid agent of the organized cilantro-chlorella
> growers of USA -- I can't help you there.
> At some point, you have to depend upon
> your own honest unbiased judgement.
Rich
>
> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:kpOOe.983$9i4...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>> Not knowing what *you* mean by "organized medicine,"
>>>
>>> ZZzz.
>>>
>>> You are indeed a slow learner, as I have explained it numerous times.
>>
>> No you haven't.
>
> YES, I have! Back in Feb, 2002.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/bcbtb
>
> Post 16.
>
That post is a lot of godblessing of "dedicated" doctors, and assertions
that "the *organization* is the problem." There is neither a definition of
just what or who the organization is nor any evidence that such an
organization exists at all. There is no such thing as "*organized
medicine*", Jan, until you define it. Where is that definition, Jan?
Rich
You, Jan, are a repeated moron for thinking that snipping my reply will make
it go away.
< restored >
Rich
>
> "Rich" <jos...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:spJOe.4251$Q82....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>>
>> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>> news:r8tOe.273601$_o.159948@attbi_s71...
>>>
>>>
>>> Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> No, that's just an *organized medicine* opinion.
>>>
>>
>> There is no such thing as *organized medicine*.
>
> IIRC, the AMA and American Academy of Pediatrics thinks of themselves are
> a large part of organized medicine. Other specialy societies (like ones
> for internal medicine, family medicine and urology) probably also think of
> themselves as part of organized medicine.
>
> Jeff
Yes, those groups are definitely organized medicine. But they are not
*organized medicine* as Jan uses the term. They do not, for example "teach"
doctors to lie or to behave as brainwashed zombies following the party line.
Nor do they, for the most part, include members of this newsgroup whom Jan
has repeatedly accused of being *organized medicine*. Jan wants to paint
healthcare workers as a grand conspiracy against patients. Her illusion that
such a cohesive organization exists is as bigoted as her assertion that Jews
are lairs from Satan. I am attempting to make it as uncomfortable as
possible for her to continue to use "*organized medicine*" as a bigoted
epithet.
--Rich
Majusmaximum
>regardless of whether it is alternative or >pharmaceutical.
"Safe & effective"? Where are you going to find ANY "cure" that fits that
description 100% of the time - all patients, all of the time, with a given
set of symptoms? (Alternative or orthodox is irrelevant.)
Looks like you want a medical world of certainty and predictability.
There isn't even any daily food that is guaranteed "safe & effective",
never mind medical treatments. Some people's throats close up within
seconds of consuming a few molecules of sesame seeds...does this mean that
someone, somewhere, was deliberately lying to us when they said that
sesame seeds were a great source of certain nutrients, and we should
consider eating them?
What do you think, Marky, that there should be a Central All-Knowing
Entity that can dispense a 100% reliable treatment/cure for whatever it is
that ails your poor boys? Well, it does not work that way, and I am sorry
for your trail of disappointments with your boys.
If you want to be able to knock on some medical practitioner's door with
kids in tow, get a 100% certain diagnosis with no fuss, followed by a
100% sure-to-work prescription ("safe and effective" drugs, diet,
herbs,prayer, surgery,) - well, you may as well lie down and die r.f.n.
because there's no such situation anywhere and never will be. (Those with
courage trudge on, however.)
Even chamomile tea is contra-indicated for some people. Vioxx and Viagra
killed a few, not everyone. Different strokes etc. Biological
individuality that can not assessed and predicted. It's ultimately about
medical freedom.
This is not about alternative VS orthodox. It is about realizing that
when you have a situation, you have to have the guts & brains to size it
up no matter what it takes or where it takes you. And that means to
never, ever quit.
LadyLollipop
>
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:DTPOe.273614$x96.67698@attbi_s72...
>>
>> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:kpOOe.983$9i4...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>>>>> Not knowing what *you* mean by "organized medicine,"
>>>>
>>>> ZZzz.
>>>>
>>>> You are indeed a slow learner, as I have explained it numerous times.
>>>
>>> No you haven't.
>>
>> YES, I have! Back in Feb, 2002.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/bcbtb
>>
>>
>
> That post is a lot of godblessing of "dedicated" doctors, and assertions
> that "the *organization* is the problem." There is neither a definition of
> just what or who the organization is nor any evidence that such an
> organization exists at all. There is no such thing as "*organized
> medicine*", Jan, until you define it. Where is that definition, Jan?
This post is where I exlpained it back in 2002.
The discussion was someething about painting all doctors with a broad brush,
thus my reply.
That's where everyone takes me wrong. I have often explained that I
appreciate the many dedicated doctors we have and the wonderful technology.
NOT
all doctors or medical people are a part of the organization. As a matter of
fac tmany fight against it and can tell some whoppers.The *organization*
itself
is where the evil lies. Read about it in Racketeering in Medicine.
What is so strange about that? I have stated many times the evils of
organized medicine, I have also stated that there are many good dedicated
doctors whocarry a hugh responsibility, and THANK GOD for them. My young
doctor
is very dedicated as is my CRA's hubby who just graduated from med school.
Both
willtell you the evils of organized medicine.
My heart goes out to the dedicated medical people, God Bless them.
I can see how you would get that idea for just one post. However previously
I have made it plain that I appreciated the great responsibility of
dedicateddoctors. It is the *organization* that is the problem. Many doctors
are NOT apart of it, and they will tell you of even more of the evils.
Bad doctors? To answer your question. Yes I would either call 911 or rush
the>
child to the ER room. And I would greatly appreciated the doctor who could
help> my child. Where do you get the idea that I think all doctors are bad?
I
have> often said there are MANY dedicated doctors who carry a great
responsibility,,,,,,,,,and THANK GOD for them.
! It is organized medicine that I believe is relentless NOT individual
doctors! I happen to know and APPRECIATE many dedicated doctors.>>
. Just reading the history of *organized* medcine is an eye opener.
That certainly doesn't mean that we don't have very good dedicated doctors
thatcarry a great responsibility. Thank God for them. My concerns are that
there are many good alternative methods that are working, but are not being
accepted because they didn't come from the organization. In reading the
history
The AMA tried to buy the methods they knew were working and when the seller
refused, hewas told his method would never see the light of day. Then they
set
out to ruin him personally One of these stories is about Dr Semmelweis who
introduced hand washing. He got the same treatment. One fair and honest
doctor
said, let's give this young man a chance. After taking away his privileges
and
trying to ruin him, he was laterconsidered to be one of the best surgeons in
the world. The hesitation on thepart of organized medicine cost some lives.
God Bless those many dedicated doctors who carry a great responsibility and
dotheir best by their patients.The problem is, there is *organized*
medicine.
They would like to stop anything alt. and call it BS WITHOUT any proof.
Organized medicine does not mean we don't have very dedicated doctors. It
is much the same as politics. Anyone one who believes it isn't organized
should talk to a new dcotor who has just graduated. Medicine is indeed
organized mainly for control.
Oh? And you don't lump all pharmaceutical companies together?
And>'*organized
medicine*'?That's correct, never have. I know a lot of doctors who are NOT a
part oforganized medicine. They can tell you even MORE of the evils. And
thank
God for dedicated doctors. Perhaps you overlooked that in my posts?
Not by me they're not. I respect good doctors. Many have certainly
earnedrespect. I have a neighbor who is in his third year of med school. He
isworking very hard and is a great guy. He also believes in alternative.
That'swhat I like to see.
Agreed! I just hope that both can keep an open mind. Both my Aunt and
Unclehave
had back and neck surgery and they are doing fine. The surgeon is a greatguy
and took time with the family after each operation.
Well you are wrong. I have never said I despised doctors, quite the
contary.Both my Aunt and Uncle recently had necessary surgery and the
surgeon
was awonderful man who did a wonderful job.
How very true. For example one might think that I hate all MD's. Not so, I
amgrateful for the good ones. My Aunt had back surgery this week. Her
surgeon
waswonderful! He drew us a diagram of what he did, and took time for all
ourquestions. Next day, I called and someone answered. We were cutting up
as
hetold me he was Buba.(I didn't know I was talking to the doc) He then said,
Ohyeah this is Jan who is going to clean her house for the next two months.
Hehad picked up on the teasing of the day before when I told my uncle, that
IDIDN'T do dishes. A really nice guy who did a great job and very down to
earth.Wouldn't it be great if we could know the thoughts behind the words
here??
I have been in Florida for a while and am not seeing anyone. I will hear
moreabout this when I get home. MY CRA's hubby is now an MD. I have the best
ofboth worlds.
====
Furthermore hypocrite, Rich Shewmaker, unlike you, I do not make up lying
definitions and then then say:
quote:
Definition: Alternative medicine is the use of unproven methods to
diagnose
> and treat disease by persons who are unqualified to diagnose and treat
> disease.
". It is a DEFINITION of the term "alternative medicine"
*******as I use it.*********
I provide this DEFINITION so that you will understand exactly
what I mean when I say "alternative medicine".
> --
LadyLollipop
<snip diversion>
>
> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:CBOOe.990$9i4...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "Rich" <jos...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:spJOe.4251$Q82....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>>>
>>> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>>> news:r8tOe.273601$_o.159948@attbi_s71...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your sense is to follow whatever *organized medicine* has taught you.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, that's just an *organized medicine* opinion.
>>>>
>>
Jeff
(...)
> Definition: Alternative medicine is the use of unproven methods to
> diagnose
>> and treat disease by persons who are unqualified to diagnose and treat
>> disease.
>
> ". It is a DEFINITION of the term "alternative medicine"
>
> *******as I use it.*********
>
>
> I provide this DEFINITION so that you will understand exactly
> what I mean when I say "alternative medicine".
That is an example of a definition relating to medicine. (I disagree with
that definition. I would say that alternative medicine (aka, conmed, as in
conjecture-based medicien) is the use of unproven methods without any
backing by science to diagnose and treat disease. To me, it doesn't matter
what the qualifications are of the person using it.
Anyway, you still haven't defined organized medicine.
Jeff
Jeff
(...)
>>> There is no such thing as *organized medicine*.
>>
>> IIRC, the AMA and American Academy of Pediatrics thinks of themselves are
>> a large part of organized medicine. Other specialy societies (like ones
>> for internal medicine, family medicine and urology) probably also think
>> of themselves as part of organized medicine.
>>
>> Jeff
>
> Yes, those groups are definitely organized medicine. But they are not
> *organized medicine* as Jan uses the term. They do not, for example
> "teach" doctors to lie or to behave as brainwashed zombies following the
> party line. Nor do they, for the most part, include members of this
> newsgroup whom Jan has repeatedly accused of being *organized medicine*.
> Jan wants to paint healthcare workers as a grand conspiracy against
> patients. Her illusion that such a cohesive organization exists is as
> bigoted as her assertion that Jews are lairs from Satan. I am attempting
> to make it as uncomfortable as possible for her to continue to use
> "*organized medicine*" as a bigoted epithet.
I totally agree with you about the AMA and such being examples of "organized
medicine."
I am not exactly sure what Jan means by organized medicine, but I tend to
agree with you. I definitely agree that her use of organized medicine is a
bigoted epithet. And it definitely does not apply to what normal people
think of as organized medicine (the AMA, AAP, etc.).
I do you think that you have made one mistake in your paragraph. You talk
about her illusion about organized medicine. I think the word "delusion"
fits better.
As for me, once I respond to her threads, I think there is not much else to
be said. I think most people realize the quality of her thoughts and words.
I will let people make judgements for themselves. And, frankly, Jan is a
walking advertisement against her views.
Jeff
> --Rich
>
Mark Probert
> Good morning, jdeere2312! Thanks for identifying yourself to Probert as
> the poster of the chlorella/cilantro recommendation. He was attributing
> that to moi. A fate worse than death.
Nah...just sloppy attributions in the post I was responding to. Blame it
on the service you are using.
> I liked your comparison to the recommendation to drink water [without
> first seeing a Certificate of Purity from a certified laboratory for that
> water.] Personally, I just use my instincts, do some asking around, do
> some reading, etc. before taking a supplement or herb.
>
> I do not depend on randomized, controlled, double-blind studies for every
> damn little thing in life. Do YOU, Marky?
No, dummy.
Mark Probert
>>I have always advocated one single standard: >safe and effective,
>>regardless of whether it is alternative or >pharmaceutical.
>
>
> "Safe & effective"? Where are you going to find ANY "cure" that fits that
> description 100% of the time - all patients, all of the time, with a given
> set of symptoms? (Alternative or orthodox is irrelevant.)
Nothing is 100% safe, nor is anything 100% effective. However, within
demonstrable reason, medications are only marketed after being found
safe and effective after testing. All I want is to see that anything
that is marketed as affecting ones health is treated equally. Thus, if
someone is touting SuperStrengthSupplement as a treatment for Horrible
Disease, then I want them to actually prove that there is a reasonable
level of safety and effectiveness of SSS.
> Looks like you want a medical world of certainty and predictability.
Certainty and predictability to a fair extent when it comes to medical
treatment. That surely is better than a 'try it, you'll like it'
approach to treatment.
In many cases, one of the most important aspects of treatment is time.
Wasting it on treatments that have little likelihood of success can be a
death sentence.
> There isn't even any daily food that is guaranteed "safe & effective",
You said guaranteed. Not me. Strawman.
> never mind medical treatments. Some people's throats close up within
> seconds of consuming a few molecules of sesame seeds...does this mean that
> someone, somewhere, was deliberately lying to us when they said that
> sesame seeds were a great source of certain nutrients, and we should
> consider eating them?
>
> What do you think, Marky,
I can be condescending, too...want to play????
that there should be a Central All-Knowing
> Entity that can dispense a 100% reliable treatment/cure for whatever it is
> that ails your poor boys? Well, it does not work that way, and I am sorry
> for your trail of disappointments with your boys.
No you aren't.
> If you want to be able to knock on some medical practitioner's door with
> kids in tow, get a 100% certain diagnosis with no fuss, followed by a
> 100% sure-to-work prescription ("safe and effective" drugs, diet,
> herbs,prayer, surgery,) - well, you may as well lie down and die r.f.n.
> because there's no such situation anywhere and never will be. (Those with
> courage trudge on, however.)
You claim "certain" and "guaranteed". Strawmen.
LadyLollipop
>
> "LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:4D4Pe.274904$x96.204179@attbi_s72...
It's ever so impolite to snip and just posts parts of the discussion.
Now for what you snipped:
Furthermore hypocrite, Rich Shewmaker, unlike you, I do not make up lying
definitions and then then say:
quote:
Definition: Alternative medicine is the use of unproven methods to
diagnose
> and treat disease by persons who are unqualified to diagnose and treat
> disease.
". It is a DEFINITION of the term "alternative medicine"
*******as I use it.*********
I provide this DEFINITION so that you will understand exactly
what I mean when I say "alternative medicine".
>
>> Definition: Alternative medicine is the use of unproven methods to
>> diagnose
>>> and treat disease by persons who are unqualified to diagnose and treat
>>> disease.
>>
>> ". It is a DEFINITION of the term "alternative medicine"
>>
>> *******as I use it.*********
>>
>>
>> I provide this DEFINITION so that you will understand exactly
>> what I mean when I say "alternative medicine".
>
> That is an example of a definition relating to medicine. (I disagree with
> that definition. I would say that alternative medicine (aka, conmed, as in
> conjecture-based medicien) is the use of unproven methods without any
> backing by science to diagnose and treat disease. To me, it doesn't matter
> what the qualifications are of the person using it.
That would be another LIE.
>
> Anyway, you still haven't defined organized medicine.
>
> Jeff
This post is where I explained it back in 2002.
http://tinyurl.com/bcbtb
>>
>> Correction post 21
The discussion was something about painting all doctors with a broad brush,
thus my reply.
That's where everyone takes me wrong. I have often explained that I
appreciate the many dedicated doctors we have and the wonderful technology.
NOT
all doctors or medical people are a part of the organization. As a matter of
fact many fight against it and can tell some whoppers.The *organization*
itself
is where the evil lies. Read about it in Racketeering in Medicine.
What is so strange about that? I have stated many times the evils of
organized medicine, I have also stated that there are many good dedicated
doctors who a Hugh responsibility, and THANK GOD for them. My young
doctor
is very dedicated as is my CRA's hubby who just graduated from med school.
Both
will you the evils of organized medicine.
My heart goes out to the dedicated medical people, God Bless them.
I can see how you would get that idea for just one post. However previously
I have made it plain that I appreciated the great responsibility of
dedicated. It is the *organization* that is the problem. Many doctors
are NOT apart of it, and they will tell you of even more of the evils.
Bad doctors? To answer your question. Yes I would either call 911 or rush
the>
child to the ER room. And I would greatly appreciated the doctor who could
help> my child. Where do you get the idea that I think all doctors are bad?
I
have> often said there are MANY dedicated doctors who carry a great
responsibility,,,,,,,,,and THANK GOD for them.
! It is organized medicine that I believe is relentless NOT individual
doctors! I happen to know and APPRECIATE many dedicated doctors.>>
. Just reading the history of *organized* medicine is an eye opener.
That certainly doesn't mean that we don't have very good dedicated doctors
that a great responsibility. Thank God for them. My concerns are that
there are many good alternative methods that are working, but are not being
accepted because they didn't come from the organization. In reading the
history
The AMA tried to buy the methods they knew were working and when the seller
refused, he told his method would never see the light of day. Then they
==========
I have absolutely NO obligation to definite any term I use here. I do NOT
make up LYING definitions.
And then say as *I use it*
Rich Shewmaker is a HARASSER, a proven liar, with double stardards, this has
absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with an Autism mesaage, it is just
another diversion
LadyLollipop
>
> "Rich" <jos...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:mX2Pe.4671$Q82....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
> (...)
>
>>>> There is no such thing as *organized medicine*.
>>>
>>> IIRC, the AMA and American Academy of Pediatrics thinks of themselves
>>> are a large part of organized medicine. Other specialy societies (like
>>> ones for internal medicine, family medicine and urology) probably also
>>> think of themselves as part of organized medicine.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>
>> Yes, those groups are definitely organized medicine. But they are not
>> *organized medicine* as Jan uses the term. They do not, for example
>> "teach" doctors to lie or to behave as brainwashed zombies following the
>> party line. Nor do they, for the most part, include members of this
>> newsgroup whom Jan has repeatedly accused of being *organized medicine*.
>> Jan wants to paint healthcare workers as a grand conspiracy against
>> patients. Her illusion that such a cohesive organization exists is as
>> bigoted as her assertion that Jews are lairs from Satan. I am attempting
>> to make it as uncomfortable as possible for her to continue to use
>> "*organized medicine*" as a bigoted epithet.
Rich is such a total liar.
>
> I totally agree with you about the AMA and such being examples of
> "organized medicine."
>
> I am not exactly sure what Jan means by organized medicine, but I tend to
> agree with you. I definitely agree that her use of organized medicine is
> a bigoted epithet.
Surprise, surprise.
Rich
For the most part, organizations are a good thing. They support journals and
seminars for the dissemination of information, they give the organizations'
members public voice, and they participate in the certification of
qualifications of their members. But what Jan sees as "*organized medicine*"
is a vast conspiracy to victimize patients. Such a conspiracy clearly does
not exist, but that does not prevent people like Jan, Illena, Kevin Trudeau,
James P. Carter, et.al., from believing that it does.
>
> I do you think that you have made one mistake in your paragraph. You talk
> about her illusion about organized medicine. I think the word "delusion"
> fits better.
Yes, "delusion" is the word that applies here. I'm aware of the differences
between "illusion", "delusion", and "hallucination", but I chose the wrong
word this time.
>
> As for me, once I respond to her threads, I think there is not much else
> to be said. I think most people realize the quality of her thoughts and
> words. I will let people make judgements for themselves. And, frankly, Jan
> is a walking advertisement against her views.
Yes she is, but I'm not comfortable letting her get away with repeated
flippant use of biggoted language.
>
> Jeff
>> --Rich
>>
>
>
Majusmaximum
Probert used the words: "within demonstrable reason"
"reasonable level"
"to a fair extent"
The devil is in the details: WHO DECIDES what constitutes "demonstrable
reason", "reasonable level" and a "fair extent", these being such mushy
words? Some parent who is bitter because he/she has suffered so many
disappointments? Someone MLM-ing mangosteen juice? A doctor or other
party with financial and philosophical ties to giant drug companies?
Probert stated:
"In many cases, one of the most important aspects of treatment is time.
Wasting it on treatments that have little likelihood of success can be a
death sentence."
Some standard medical procedures are a total failure for some. Those same
treatments are a resounding success with others.
Just as high-tech medicine resorts to "experimental treatment" on a
regular basis, we can consider SuperStrengthSupplement to be experimental,
also. Nobody is forcing you to use SuperStrengthSupplement. But don't
ask the powers-that-be to forbid my trying it if I want to. Whether I use
high tech medicine, or SSS, as a first-line treatment for my family is
none of your business.
The burden is on you to do your own research & investigation, instead of
running willy-nilly into apparently unproven medical treatment, then
getting mad because they all failed.
A child of my acquaintance had Hurler's disease, where lack of an enzyme
(or some such) causes massive health problems, and they all die at a young
age. What the medical doctors talked her parents into agreeing to is
criminal. There was no chance of success whatsoever. No child with
Hurler's has ever survived this "treatment".
We all knew what the Big Combo of chemotherapy, bone marrow transplant,
deliberate destruction of immune system, etc. would do. Kill her
promptly. This child was being used for practice by criminals who I would
not trust with my family members' bodies any more than I would hire a
convicted pederast to babysit for us.
HCN
"Majusmaximum" <chosen...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:90bccf6364a63bf6...@localhost.talkaboutparenting.com...
...> I do not depend on randomized, controlled, double-blind studies for
every
> damn little thing in life. ...
Yeah, that should be a realy life saver... not.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05236/559444.stm
Majusmaximum
had been done to him for lead poisoning.
Jeff
> The boy who died from EDTA chelation treatment would be just as dead if
> it
> had been done to him for lead poisoning.
The point is that EDTA chelation is a treatment that is potentially deadly.
For lead poisoning, there is a definite benefit to treatment with EDTA
treatment. There is no benefit to giving it for autism and a real chance
that the patient will die.
Jeff
Mark Probert
> The boy who died from EDTA chelation treatment would be just as dead if it
> had been done to him for lead poisoning.
>
According to the newspaper article today, it was done for lead
poisoning. Sounds like butt covering to me. The fact is chelation does
not treat autism, and this boy is dead because of the anti-vac liars.
Mark Probert
> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eJ5Pe.1352$9i4...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>>"LadyLollipop" <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>>news:4D4Pe.274904$x96.204179@attbi_s72...
>><snip showing you butt again>
>
>
> It's ever so impolite to snip and just posts parts of the discussion.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA1
You do it all the time...what a hypocrite
Mark Probert
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:17:02 GMT, "LadyLollipop"
> <LadyLo...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>
>>It's ever so impolite to snip and just posts parts of the discussion.
>
>
> this newsgroup she has been snipping and posting parts of the
> discussion with nearly every one of her posts. I wonder if Jan is
> aware of how impolite she really is:-)
Self awareness is, shall I be polite????
Okay....not one of Jan's strengths.
Mark Probert
Why would anyone be surprised at the use of a bigoted epithet by a
proven bigot who uses bigoted epithets and then defends that use?
SNIP
Mark Probert
>
> Probert used the words: "within demonstrable reason"
>
> "reasonable level"
>
> "to a fair extent"
>
> The devil is in the details: WHO DECIDES what constitutes "demonstrable
> reason", "reasonable level" and a "fair extent", these being such mushy
> words?
Intelligent people by the use of logic and reason.
Some parent who is bitter because he/she has suffered so many
> disappointments? Someone MLM-ing mangosteen juice? A doctor or other
> party with financial and philosophical ties to giant drug companies?
Of course you would bring in financial, since you have nothing of
substance to say.
> Probert stated:
> "In many cases, one of the most important aspects of treatment is time.
> Wasting it on treatments that have little likelihood of success can be a
> death sentence."
>
> Some standard medical procedures are a total failure for some. Those same
> treatments are a resounding success with others.
True. However, those medical treatments have been shown to have an
effect for the conditions they are prescribed to treat. Other
"treatments" are based on sales hype, anecdote, etc.
> Just as high-tech medicine resorts to "experimental treatment" on a
> regular basis, we can consider SuperStrengthSupplement to be experimental,
> also. Nobody is forcing you to use SuperStrengthSupplement. But don't
> ask the powers-that-be to forbid my trying it if I want to. Whether I use
> high tech medicine, or SSS, as a first-line treatment for my family is
> none of your business.
I see. Do you advocate that people should be able to self-treat cancers
using the currently available chemotherapy agents?
> The burden is on you to do your own research & investigation, instead of
> running willy-nilly into apparently unproven medical treatment, then
> getting mad because they all failed.
I see. So you are a blame the vitim type of person.
> A child of my acquaintance had Hurler's disease, where lack of an enzyme
> (or some such) causes massive health problems, and they all die at a young
> age. What the medical doctors talked her parents into agreeing to is
> criminal. There was no chance of success whatsoever. No child with
> Hurler's has ever survived this "treatment".
Care to share what the treatment is?
> We all knew what the Big Combo of chemotherapy, bone marrow transplant,
> deliberate destruction of immune system, etc. would do. Kill her
> promptly. This child was being used for practice by criminals who I would
> not trust with my family members' bodies any more than I would hire a
> convicted pederast to babysit for us.
I see..so you are fully familiar with all aspects of the treatment. NOT!
Mark Probert
> "Mark Probert" <markp...@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
> news:eVEOe.7687$KX7....@fe10.lga...
>
>>mike wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:00:55 -0700, HCN wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>There is no conclusive evidence that autism is caused by vaccines. There
>>>>are studies that show autism is genetic:
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The presence of genetic factor does not rule out environmental factors.
>>
>>true. Each environmental factor has to be systematically ruled in or out.
>>
>>
>>>There are instances of identical twins only one of whom is autistic, and
>>>that is an unmistakable proof the existence of environmental factors.
>>
>>Actually, no. If the twins live in the same environment, then they are
>>exposed to the same environmental risk factors. To prove YOUR claim, you
>>would have to do a study of twins who were separated at birth and grew up
>>in totally different environments.
>>
>>
>>>And it seems that "thimerosal-is-safe" crowd is not interested in
>>>identifying these factors.
>>
>>Strawman. No one claimed that "thimerosal is safe". What is claimed, since
>>it is proven, is that there is no link between the tiny amounts of
>>thimerosal used in vaccines and autism.
>
>
> WRONG.
>
> CLEARLY there is a link.
Based on sound scientific investigation, the link is missing.
Citing Altcorp is citing a business which derives its income from
promoting this missing link.
Mark Probert
>>amounts way beyond that used as a food. Thus, if it were to be able to
>>chelate one heavy metal, all are at risk of being chelated.
>
>
> Not "way beyond". We are talking 1 - 1.5 tablespoon full
> or so in a day, and I have had Mexican salsa that was
> really heavy on cilantro and might easily have had
> that much in a bowl.
Way beyond because it would be used daily for a period of time. Over
that period of time, how much Mexican salsa would the average person
consume?
Way beyond because we are talking about children with lower body weights.
> People buy cilantro in bunches, and various recipes
> arond the world might have hefty amounts. I have
> seen no warnings about anybody overdosing on it,
> from any source.
As a food...not consumed on a day to day basis as it would if used as
you suggested.
> I am indeed recommending heavy dosages to be
> kept up for a while -- but I am not recommending
> to continue it beyond a month if no serious and
> visible benefit is seen. If serious and visible
> benefit is indeed seen, I would recommend
> supplementing with multivitamins/minerals
> before continuing, just to be on the safe side.
A month? That is a lot of salsa.
LadyLollipop
"Mark Probert" <markp...@lumbercartel.com> wrote .
bigoted bigot bigoted
>> "Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
a bigoted epithet
.
>>>"Rich" <jos...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
bigoted epithet
Rich
So are you getting the idea that we have identified you as a bigot?
LadyLollipop
Mark Probert
Liar.
LadyLollipop
> Rich.@. wrote:
Poor Mark.
The PROVEN LIAR!!!!!
*Correct. I do not initiate threads with your name in it. I just change
the name you used to yours*.
===
What's more, he replys the the proven liar, cyberstalker, who nukes his
posts.
Not one of Richichard H Jacobson's strenght's. like YOU he is a PROVEN LIAR.
Before Richard Jacobson decided to deny he wasn't Richard Jacobson
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&start=0&scoring=d&enc_author=Ojy0Y...
Richard Jacobson Jun 23 1995, 1:00 am show options
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: richj @pixi.com (Richard Jacobson)
Date: 1995/06/23
As I think back on the several weeks that I have been posting on this
newsgroup I reflect on the problems that exist here and thought it
would be helpful to share my thoughts.
My understanding of this newsgroup is that it is for a discussion
of alternative methods to achieving good health compared to
conventional medicine. Discussion meaning that the participants
will try to discuss topics instead of discussing personalities.
Since I started posting in this newsgroup I noticed that most
of the posts were personal ones. I lurked for a while and then
started to post. At first I listened to what was being said,
thought of questions to ask and of information that I could
provide. Unfortunately my posts (which certainly in the
beginning were nonaggressive) we either met with
indifference or hostility. It appeared as if those who had
a conventional viewpoint were not welcomed. It was as
if conventionalists were the "enemy". This is so sad as we
all are aspiring to good health.
As my posts continued to be met with hostility I began
to become more aggressive in my posts confronting
those who I felt were largely responsible for the lack
of meaningful discussion. As you all know there was
a single individual who I primarily focused on. This
individual clearly is responsible for the great majority
of posts in this newsgroup. He also seems most
responsible for inhibiting the opinion of those who
don't agree with him. Some of you like this poster
and feel that he is knowledgeable and has much
to offer. It is understandable why you feel this way.
He seems to know what he is talking about and
he never is wrong (at least never admits it). There
is a certain charisma to the posts which obviously
is attractive to some.
I don't have the final say on healing and neither
does anyone else. Each of us does the best
we can to try to wade through all the information
that we have. It is up to each of us to
critically examine the information and then come
to a conclusion. The conclusion will hardly be
the gospel truth. Sometimes we can be so sure
that we know something only perhaps later to
discover that we are wrong. Some things seem
so obvious. Other things seem so mysterious.
Who knows the truth about healing. None of
us here.
Beware of those who make claims that they
never have any failures in their treatments
Beware of those who won't allow others
to even ask for validity
Beware of those who refuse to critically
look at their theory and change if the
evidence seems to call for it
Beware of those who mainly criticize the
opposition at every opportunity.
We all need to have open mind and allow
for the possibility that we are wrong.
Everyone has an idea of why we are having
such a problem in the group. The best way
is to look longitudinally at the problem and
see if there is a common thread. People
have come and gone. Not much has changed.
I will be leaving soon and although many feel
that I am the cause of the problem when I leave
things will likely remain the same. Each of you
needs to ask yourself why. If the answer is
the conventionalists who ask for validation
that calls into serious question the alternative
paradigm which cannot hold up to critical
analysis.
If I have offended anyone by my remarks I do
apologize. Many of my comments have been
rather biting and sarcastic. It certainly has been
an interesting experience for me to say the least.
I wish you all the best of luck in your endeavors
and in health matters.
I plan to take a leave of absence for a while
from the group. I will return some day to see
how things have changed or have not. I plan
to replace the thirty to forty five minutes a day
I spend on this group with more exercise and
recreation.
I tried to share with the group some of my own
knowledge about medical matters that may
be useful to some. Hopefully some have
benefitted in some way from them. I realize
others saw my posts as mostly detrimental
and negative.
Everyone take care and try to be nice to
each other. At the least don't end up killing
each otherr.
With warm aloha,
Rich
mike
"Mark Probert" <markp...@lumbercartel.com> wrote in message
> news:ChnPe.19$kS...@fe08.lga...
>>>
>>>>mike wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:00:55 -0700, HCN wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>There is no conclusive evidence that autism is caused by vaccines.
>>>>>>There are studies that show autism is genetic:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The presence of genetic factor does not rule out environmental factors.
>>>>
>>>>true. Each environmental factor has to be systematically ruled in or out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>There are instances of identical twins only one of whom is autistic, and
>>>>>that is an unmistakable proof the existence of environmental factors.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, no. If the twins live in the same environment, then they are
>>>>exposed to the same environmental risk factors. To prove YOUR claim, you
>>>>would have to do a study of twins who were separated at birth and grew up
>>>>in totally different environments.
My claim is the opposite.
The statement about the necessity of a study of separated twins would make
sense only if the claim were that autism is purely genetic and the only
argument were that identical twins are usually affected together.
I am stating that autism is NOT entirely genetic. There cannot be pairs of
identical twins with only one affected by a truly genetic disease, like
Down syndrome. Therefore, if just a single pair of identical twins can be
found with only one having XYZ condition it is a proof that XYZ condition
is not purely genetic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>And it seems that "thimerosal-is-safe" crowd is not interested in
>>>>>identifying these factors.
>>>>
>>>>Strawman. No one claimed that "thimerosal is safe". What is claimed,
>>>>since it is proven, is that there is no link between the tiny amounts of
>>>>thimerosal used in vaccines and autism.
Let's clarify. The
there-is-no-connection-between-thimerosal-in-vaccines-and-autism crowd is
not in the least interested in identifying environmental autism risk
factors.
LadyLollipop
"mike" <x...@xyz.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.08.26....@xyz.com...
There is CLEARLY a link between thimerosal in vaccines and autism.
http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/asdexperts.htm
The *organized medicine* crowd just keeps denying it.
Rich
What "*organized medicine*" crowd? There is no "*organized medicine*", Jan.
Where is that definition?
Majusmaximum
with harsh chemicals. It doesn't sound right to me, and never has.
I just meant that subjecting that poor kid to the EDTA treatment is no
worse than the dozens of vile, harsh treatments routinely prescribed and
performed by medical doctors on children with cancer, for example. All
those kids who were "cured" of leukemia? Turns out they are all of them
now suffering severe, irreversible health problems. Hope you can take a
moment to look it up.
Some cure.
Jeff
All of them? Some of them are. Some of them lost parts of their legs or
arms or brains.
The alternative was death. And they are still alive. Now, about 70-75% are
cured. Many of them, as you point out, have lifelong disabilities. But,
without the cancer treatment, they wouldn't be alive. One of the students
while I was in graduate school had leukemia as a child. Now he has his own
children.
I would not give cancer treatment to my worst enemy, not even George Bush.
However, I would give it to my kids if they have cancer. it saves lives.
> Some cure.
For most of the kids is a cure. A horrible treatment, but for most kids it
works. The alternative is death.
Do you have a better alternative than today's cancer therapy for kids? One
that doesn't result in all the kids in graves, which is the alternative to
today's cancer therapy.
Jeff
Mark Probert
> Let's clarify. The
> there-is-no-connection-between-thimerosal-in-vaccines-and-autism crowd is
> not in the least interested in identifying environmental autism risk
> factors.
Wrong. Now that we do not have to waste scarce money on looking for a
vaccine link, other causes, genetic, environmental, etc. can be looked for.
I would LOVE for a clear cut environmental factor to be found as the
cause, or trigger, of Autism. Such a cause could hopefully be addressed,
and the incidence rate would drop dramatically. That would be wonderful.