Question on Jogging and ankle pain
Colin
Hi again,
Thanks for all of you who replied to my eariler post about
weight loss supplements. You were very helpful, I'll just stick with my
regular program and let time takes its course.
Anyways, I walk every day for at least an hour and sometimes up 2 hours
at a time. I have a nice park that a short walk by that makes it real
helpful to work out. The problem is is that I'm beginning to worry that
2 hours of walking and not breaking into much of a sweat is a sign that
I should start jogging, I've heard lots of people say that you should
switch over to running or jogging after you're walking alot because it
burns more calories vs walking. So I've been trying to jog the past
couple of days and I'm not having much luck. The problem is that after
even as little an amount of time as 30-45 seconds I get bad ankle pains,
like there's too much pressure on it or something. It gets so bad I
usually have to stop jogging and wait for them to subside. I don't get
it when I'm walking or lifting weights, the only other I get them is
when I'm having to run across a street real fast to beat the light. I'd
like to start jogging, but this pain is really killing my ankle. Do I
need new shoes just for jogging, maybe something else, or am I just not
cut out for jogging?
- Colin
Larry DeLuca, EdM, CSCS
[Discomfort while jogging. Do I need to jog?]
Well, discomfort at the ankle during jogging such as you describe could
be due to any number of factors, most likely having to do with improper
running mechanics. Are you rolling in or out on your foot as you run? Do
you have flat feet?
You might also consider your shoes - while it is possible to walk a fair
amount in shoes of all different amounts of support, the increased impact
of running really demands a proper shoe with good support and lateral
stability. A good pair of cross-trainers or running shoes might help
considerably.
As far as needing to jog, you can expend a good deal of calories by walking
at a good pace. Try adding arms, swinging in time with the legs, forward
and backward. You can start with them bent at the elbows and as you develop
proficiency keep them extended throughout the swing. You can also take wider
strides and walk faster to increase the intensity.
If you're interested in jogging and you're still having problems, see if a
friend who runs can watch you run and look at your form, and talk to your
doctor to see if you have any orthopedic problems that need to be addressed.
larry...
--
--------"The claim that 'They laughed at Columbus' is tempered by the fact
that they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
-- NCAHF Newsletter
Colin
Larry DeLuca, EdM, CSCS wrote:
>
> [Discomfort while jogging. Do I need to jog?]
>
> Well, discomfort at the ankle during jogging such as you describe could
> be due to any number of factors, most likely having to do with improper
> running mechanics. Are you rolling in or out on your foot as you run? Do
> you have flat feet?
before. I'm not sure what mean when you ask if I'm rolling my foot in or
out as I run. Could you possibly explain it abit more?
> As far as needing to jog, you can expend a good deal of calories by walking
> at a good pace. Try adding arms, swinging in time with the legs, forward
> and backward. You can start with them bent at the elbows and as you develop
> proficiency keep them extended throughout the swing. You can also take wider
> strides and walk faster to increase the intensity.
Some good suggestions, thanks :). What about weights, remember the
little strap-on ankle and wrist weights? I remember they use to be real
big in the 80's, but I never see them anymore? Were they good, or were
they more pain than what they were worth?
> If you're interested in jogging and you're still having problems, see if a
> friend who runs can watch you run and look at your form, and talk to your
> doctor to see if you have any orthopedic problems that need to be addressed.
>
> larry...
Thanks Larry :).
Larry DeLuca, EdM, CSCS
In article <33A4B0...@geocities.com>,
Colin <Gray...@geocities.com> wrote:
>Larry DeLuca, EdM, CSCS wrote:
>>
>> [Discomfort while jogging. Do I need to jog?]
>>
>> Well, discomfort at the ankle during jogging such as you describe could
>> be due to any number of factors, most likely having to do with improper
>> running mechanics. Are you rolling in or out on your foot as you run? Do
>> you have flat feet?
>Yes, actually I do have rather flat feet, never thought about that
>before. I'm not sure what mean when you ask if I'm rolling my foot in or
>out as I run. Could you possibly explain it abit more?
>
If you were to look at your foot from the back, it might look roughly as
though your ankle were not centered over your foot, with your ankle being
toward the inside edge of your foot (most likely) for flat feet.
>
>> As far as needing to jog, you can expend a good deal of calories by walking
>> at a good pace. Try adding arms, swinging in time with the legs, forward
>> and backward. You can start with them bent at the elbows and as you develop
>> proficiency keep them extended throughout the swing. You can also take wider
>> strides and walk faster to increase the intensity.
>
>Some good suggestions, thanks :). What about weights, remember the
>little strap-on ankle and wrist weights? I remember they use to be real
>big in the 80's, but I never see them anymore? Were they good, or were
>they more pain than what they were worth?
>
Definitely avoid the weights. They only add about as much energy cost
to the activity as adding that much body weight, but since they're attached
to the ends of your limbs they add much more force to the movement of those
limbs and can cause other problems.
larry...
J.D. Baldwin
In article <5o2gd8$ls3$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>, Larry DeLuca, EdM,
CSCS <hen...@course1.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Definitely avoid the weights. They only add about as much energy cost
>to the activity as adding that much body weight, but since they're
>attached to the ends of your limbs they add much more force to the
>movement of those limbs and can cause other problems.
Now you've got me worried. I wear wrist weights (2# each wrist,
planning to go to 3# in a week or so) for every other run (4 miles,
about 5 times/week). I find that my joints aren't any more or less
sore from wearing the weights, but the intensity of the exercise is
markedly higher when I wear the weights. (I know, there are other
ways to increase intensity, but I've got a nice pace/stride set and I
don't want to mess with it.)
I'd never put them on my ankles (that would increase the impact on an
already flirting-with-tendonitis right foot), but I fail to see what
harm could be done keeping them on my wrists while running. Mind
elaborating?
--
From the catapult of J.D. Baldwin |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
_,_ Finger bal...@netcom.com |+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
_|70|___:::)=}- for PGP public |+| retract it, but also to deny under
\ / key information. |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry DeLuca, EdM, CSCS
In article <baldwinE...@netcom.com>,
J.D. Baldwin <bal...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <5o2gd8$ls3$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>, Larry DeLuca, EdM,
>CSCS <hen...@course1.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>Definitely avoid the weights. They only add about as much energy cost
>>to the activity as adding that much body weight, but since they're
>>attached to the ends of your limbs they add much more force to the
>>movement of those limbs and can cause other problems.
>
>Now you've got me worried. I wear wrist weights (2# each wrist,
>planning to go to 3# in a week or so) for every other run (4 miles,
>about 5 times/week). I find that my joints aren't any more or less
>sore from wearing the weights, but the intensity of the exercise is
>markedly higher when I wear the weights. (I know, there are other
>ways to increase intensity, but I've got a nice pace/stride set and I
>don't want to mess with it.)
>
Well, it's quite likely that the "increase" in intensity is due to a
phenomenon known as the "pressor response". The additional weight must
be held up by your arms, leading to increased tension in the muscles. This
increases the resistance to blood flow through those muscles, and so
the heart rate increases (as well as the blood pressure) to compensate.
However, if you were to measure your actual oxygen usage (a much more
accurate marker of aerobic exercise intensity) you would find that your
heart rate (and your pereption of exertion) increased much more than your
actual oxygen usage.
A lot of people who are carrying around relatively small weights think
they're working much harder than they actually are due to this.
>I'd never put them on my ankles (that would increase the impact on an
>already flirting-with-tendonitis right foot), but I fail to see what
>harm could be done keeping them on my wrists while running. Mind
>elaborating?
Basically, a weight is going to have local and global effects during aerobic
exercise.
The global effect is to increase the body weight by a given amount. Thus,
if you weigh 150 lbs. and carry two 2-lb. hand weights you've increased your
body weight by about 2.7%. If you look at your oxygen uptake, you'll find
that it will also increase about 2.7%. Needless to say, since most people
weigh more than 150 lbs., they're going to see an even smaller % increase
in oxygen uptake, and you'd need to use substantial amounts of weight to
increase your intensity.
The local effect is that you're not increasing the weight of the body
uniformly, but rather increasing the weight of one limb. A typical
person's arm is about 5% of their body weight (source: anthropometric
data derived from cadaver studies), with the center of mass at about the
middle of that segment.
Since the amount of torque on a joint is going to be the force applied times
the lever arm due to gravity, holding your arm outstretched will exert a
torque on the shouler joint equal to the distance from the shoulder joint
to about the elbow multiplied by the weight of the entire arm.
Holding a weight in your hand does two things. First, it increases the
weight of the segment. If you weigh 150 lbs., your arm weighs about
7.5 lbs (5% of your total body weight) to begin with. A 2 lb. increase
brings this to 9.5 lbs, an increase of about 27%.
In addition, since the weight is a dense object you hold in your hand (at
the far end of the limb) you will also move the center of gravity much
closer to the hand.
In doing so you will have increased the torque on the shoulder tremendously
because you have increased the force (weight of the limb) by 27%, *AND*
you have increased the lever arm (distance from the center of rotation)
substantially as well.
The net effect is that every 1-lb. increase in weight in the hand will
result in a many-lb. increase in weight transmitted to the shoulder and
back. In addition, joints like the fingers, wrist, and elbow, which are
normally subjected to much smaller loads during such dynamic activity, will
experience the same effect. For example, the elbow to hand makes up about
2% of the body mass (or 3 lbs. in this example). The additional torque
around the elbow due to the increased mass alone will be 67%, before adding
in the change in lever length due to the more distally placed center of
gravity.
Also, you could lose control of a weight, injuring yourself or someone
else.
In short, you gain relatively little aerobically (2.7% increase in oxygen
uptake) but there is a substantial increase in stress to the joints of
the upper extremity, and a risk of injury from losing control of the
weights. The perception of exertion increases disproportionately due to
the pressor response, and the heart must work harder due to the increased
peripheral resistance for little aerobic benefit.
The choice is up to you, but if your goal is aerobic fitness it's not
really doing that much for you.
J.D. Baldwin
In article <5o513s$v3k$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>, Larry DeLuca, EdM,
CSCS <hen...@course1.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Basically, a weight is going to have local and global effects during
>aerobic exercise.
>
>The global effect is to increase the body weight by a given amount. Thus,
>if you weigh 150 lbs. and carry two 2-lb. hand weights you've increased your
>body weight by about 2.7%. If you look at your oxygen uptake, you'll find
>that it will also increase about 2.7%. Needless to say, since most people
>weigh more than 150 lbs., they're going to see an even smaller % increase
>in oxygen uptake, and you'd need to use substantial amounts of weight to
>increase your intensity.
OK, but since I'm pumping my arms a bit exaggeratedly during my run,
isn't it at least plausible that some of the increased perceived
effort is actual *work*?
>In doing so you will have increased the torque on the shoulder tremendously
>because you have increased the force (weight of the limb) by 27%, *AND*
>you have increased the lever arm (distance from the center of rotation)
>substantially as well.
I understand this perfectly, but my arms aren't held outstretched
during my run, they're bent at the elbow, and the weights themselves
(wrapped around my wrists, not held in the hand) are pretty much
underneath my shoulders (a little bit forward, actually) when not
swinging.
>Also, you could lose control of a weight, injuring yourself or someone
>else.
I don't carry dumbells while running (I do when walking to cool down,
though, moving my arms about quite a bit) for precisely this reason,
along with a touch of arthritis in the fingers of my right hand. But
these weights wrap securely around my wrists with a heavy strap. They
aren't going anywhere.
>In short, you gain relatively little aerobically (2.7% increase in
>oxygen uptake) but there is a substantial increase in stress to the
>joints of the upper extremity, and a risk of injury from losing
>control of the weights. The perception of exertion increases
>disproportionately due to the pressor response, and the heart must
>work harder due to the increased peripheral resistance for little
>aerobic benefit.
I feel nothing at all unusual in my shoulder or elbow joints after
running with the weights, certainly no pain at all. I'm not into
pain--pain hurts!--and if I did I'd discontinue this immediately.
I was unaware of the "pressor response" and your explanation makes
sense to me. Nevertheless, I *do* manage to keep my arms fairly
relaxed, and the exaggerated pump must be adding a bit to my overall
effort. Probably somewhere between the mere 2.2% from the added
weight itself and the 10% or so I "perceive."
>The choice is up to you, but if your goal is aerobic fitness it's not
>really doing that much for you.
You've given me plenty to think about. Perhaps it's not worth it
after all.
Denise Howard
Larry DeLuca, EdM, CSCS (hen...@course1.harvard.edu) wrote:
: Basically, a weight is going to have local and global effects during aerobic
: exercise.
: The global effect is to increase the body weight by a given amount. Thus,
: if you weigh 150 lbs. and carry two 2-lb. hand weights you've increased your
: body weight by about 2.7%. If you look at your oxygen uptake, you'll find
: that it will also increase about 2.7%. Needless to say, since most people
: weigh more than 150 lbs., they're going to see an even smaller % increase
: in oxygen uptake, and you'd need to use substantial amounts of weight to
: increase your intensity.
: The local effect is that you're not increasing the weight of the body
: uniformly, but rather increasing the weight of one limb. A typical
: person's arm is about 5% of their body weight (source: anthropometric
: data derived from cadaver studies), with the center of mass at about the
: middle of that segment.
[ More good info omitted ]
If it's not in thre already, I'd like to nominate Larry's full response
for promotion to the misc.fitness.aerobic FAQ. The question about "Should
I wear/carry weights while I walk/jog/step? Why or why not?" seems to
come up fairly often, and Larry's answer is a complete and easily "bought"
one. Who's in charge of the FAQ these days?
Denise
--
Denise Howard | PROGRAM, tr. v., An activity similar to
Mountain View, CA | banging one's head against a wall, but
den...@best.com | with fewer opportunities for reward.
NeXTMail welcome! | http://www.best.com/~deniseh
Kevin Hergert
Hello GrayWoof, how are you, may I add my $.02?
> helpful to work out. The problem is is that I'm beginning to worry that
> 2 hours of walking and not breaking into much of a sweat is a sign that
> I should start jogging,
Try a route with hills or increase your speed. If you walked with me on
my daily 4.5 mile route, you'd sweat.
> usually have to stop jogging and wait for them to subside. I don't get
> it when I'm walking or lifting weights, the only other I get them is
> when I'm having to run across a street real fast to beat the light. I'd
> like to start jogging, but this pain is really killing my ankle. Do I
Are you stretching before and after work outs?
Consider a hot bath after work outs?
How's your nurtrition?
there's an unexciting formula that works
Larry DeLuca, EdM, CSCS
>CSCS <hen...@course1.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>Basically, a weight is going to have local and global effects during
>>aerobic exercise.
>>
>>The global effect is to increase the body weight by a given amount. Thus,
>>if you weigh 150 lbs. and carry two 2-lb. hand weights you've increased your
>>body weight by about 2.7%. If you look at your oxygen uptake, you'll find
>>that it will also increase about 2.7%. Needless to say, since most people
>>weigh more than 150 lbs., they're going to see an even smaller % increase
>>in oxygen uptake, and you'd need to use substantial amounts of weight to
>>increase your intensity.
>
>isn't it at least plausible that some of the increased perceived
>effort is actual *work*?
>
You've missed the point. We've measured this in the laboratory. I
have empirical data to back up my statements.
>>In doing so you will have increased the torque on the shoulder tremendously
>>because you have increased the force (weight of the limb) by 27%, *AND*
>>you have increased the lever arm (distance from the center of rotation)
>>substantially as well.
>
>I understand this perfectly, but my arms aren't held outstretched
>during my run, they're bent at the elbow, and the weights themselves
>(wrapped around my wrists, not held in the hand) are pretty much
>underneath my shoulders (a little bit forward, actually) when not
>swinging.
>
That will reduce the lever length, but you've still increased the weight of
the limb and moved its center of gravity. It's still going to generate
more force on the joint than if the arm was unweighted.
>>Also, you could lose control of a weight, injuring yourself or someone
>>else.
>
>I don't carry dumbells while running (I do when walking to cool down,
>though, moving my arms about quite a bit) for precisely this reason,
>along with a touch of arthritis in the fingers of my right hand. But
>these weights wrap securely around my wrists with a heavy strap. They
>aren't going anywhere.
>
Why carry around weights to increase the intensity when you're trying to
cool down (i.e., lower the intensity)?
Tying the weights to your hands may prevent the weights from flying out of
your hands, but it may also increase the likelihood of an injury from a
ballistic movement involving the weights (for example if you were to trip and
flail your arms out to break your fall).
>>In short, you gain relatively little aerobically (2.7% increase in
>>oxygen uptake) but there is a substantial increase in stress to the
>>joints of the upper extremity, and a risk of injury from losing
>>control of the weights. The perception of exertion increases
>>disproportionately due to the pressor response, and the heart must
>>work harder due to the increased peripheral resistance for little
>>aerobic benefit.
>
>I feel nothing at all unusual in my shoulder or elbow joints after
>running with the weights, certainly no pain at all. I'm not into
>pain--pain hurts!--and if I did I'd discontinue this immediately.
>
Well, that's good. Remember, though, that many injuries take a bit of
time to show up - overuse injuries are primarily wear and tear on the
joints and bones and connective tissue that adds up over time.
>I was unaware of the "pressor response" and your explanation makes
>sense to me. Nevertheless, I *do* manage to keep my arms fairly
>relaxed, and the exaggerated pump must be adding a bit to my overall
>effort. Probably somewhere between the mere 2.2% from the added
>weight itself and the 10% or so I "perceive."
>
That's the point. The weight warps your perception. It *feels* harder
than it actually is. You'll typically get more of an energy increase
from going from a walk to a jog.
>>The choice is up to you, but if your goal is aerobic fitness it's not
>>really doing that much for you.
>
>You've given me plenty to think about. Perhaps it's not worth it
>after all.
Again, it's up to you. If you decide the benefits to you outweigh the
risks, then it may be something you continue to do. If not, you can always
become cardiovascularly fit in other ways.