the definition of evil
fiddler
true or pure sense. Each person can always name some action, such as
the murder of children, that I do want to call evil. But what about
those that commit such crimes? Are they evil?
Case in point: My sister was raped and murdered at 15 years of age.
The crime was horrific and brutal; with the man even saying, on the
stand, that he couldn't remember if he had raped her before or after
the strangulation.
Now, hopefully, each of you has just shuddered, felt ill, or began to
think of a response to me about horrible content.
This act was committed on multiple girls by a serial killer. The
sadness and horror that many families including mine were forced to
endure cannot be said to have a positive aspect, do not take that away
from my post. It was terrible, truly, and I wouldn't wish it on
anyone. However, as everyone condemns the killer as evil, other facts
must be brought to light. He has a fair amount of intelligence. He had
a plan for his future. He had a family and a group of friends. In all
aspects but one he was a normal person, and that one aspect has
completely decided how he will be viewed until he is forgotten.
My question is simply this: Can evil have a definition as applied to a
person (my example), an entity (satan), a force (chaos), etc..
The problem I have is this: to be truly evil, the subject must have no
redeeming characteristics.
These are concepts that an article I'm writing will contain, but I
thought I'd get any willing opinions that any of you would like to
share. (These are much condensed of course, I doubt any of you want to
read the pages I've researched and written on each trait.)
Evil is generally and most often held to be such concepts as random,
chaotic, violent, sadistic, occasionally masochistic, etc..
1) As satan is considered an entity and can plan and have a cohesive
and consistent worldview, he cannot be overwhelmingly evil. As chaos
cannot hold form or shape, an entity must not be true evil and hold
shape, without dismissing chaos as an evil concept.
2) Sadistic is definitely a trait that is considered evil, yet does
this mean that no sadistic person or entity can be good? The majority
of clergy in the middle ages from christianity and islam were either
masochistic or sadistic, there are reams of evidence attesting to
this, yet can it be said that they had no positive qualities? The
sadism was often done in the concept of god being good and promoting
that idea, were they evil at the same point that they pushed religion
into every corner of the world?
3) Violence is another term that is considered evil, but the simple
fact is that the world is violent. Every animal and many plants exist
only by destroying another living thing. Also there is the very basic
and sad reality that war is a natural population controller, this is
seen in animals as well when carnivores face a scarcity of prey. If
the death of others or simple violent tendencies are evil concepts,
one must complain to whatever creator they believe in.
4) The most difficult concept to defend is rape. Sadly, this truly
does have a historical necessity attached to it. In times past, among
generally isolated communities with a scarcity of resources such as
desert and icy regions, rape during raids and war was the only method
of spreading genes without overpopulation leading to starvation. In
the current and more advanced world that we call home this has no
business being done, but nonetheless is a violent trait that is still
in existence. Can an action that once had a necessary purpose for the
survival of entire tribes and races be evil? MAKE NO MISTAKE HERE: it
is certainly detestable and I hold a rapist to be a truly ugly
creature. But can an action like slavery or rape be once good or
acceptable, and then become evil?
There are many other examples but these seem to make the most people
angry. The others are primarily definitions drawn from religious texts
and historical attitudes.
ornamentalmind
with your argument that: “evil does not exist in any true or pure
sense”. Yes, the word exists and can be applied in different
situations, however, in any true or pure sense?...nope…I’m with you.
Of course, for those of some cultures who are attracted to things
theological much of the use of the term becomes automatic…sadly.
Overall, in most cases I would simply use the term ‘ignorant.’
fiddler
Nearly every argument/position I can find says that evil exists
because some so-and-so said so or this-or-that holy book says so.
iam deheretic
I agree with you there is no persay satan or devil. Personally I think it is people not wanting to take responsibility for their own actions and there are emotionally sick people.. Personally I think that human basic nature is to be good. That nature can be influenced by outside forces like advertising, games, preachers,,parents .. the forces that that we grow up with.. today I am wondering about the war video games.
Unlike you I do believe in God and that we have a basic drive to be good and seek him out. the problem being is that we and everything is made up of his (non gender) essence so it becomes difficult to see or conceive of God. The concept of forgiveness is trying to let go of the internal pain, that does not say what happened to your sister is okay because it is not and should not be condoned . Forgiveness is trying to come to peace with yourself and in your case I won't say the God within you.
Allan
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I_D Allan
Lee
label like 'evil' or 'good' for that matter it is clear to me that any
human is capable of perfoming both actions.
Besides it is morality isn't it, and so highly subjective. No one is
truly evil and no one is truly is truly good.
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Justintruth
to be entiative. If by being we mean an entity - some thing - let's
say, and then you ask the question whether evil exists, then it can be
questioned. However, that same idea will lead to a host of other
realities that aren't because they are not "things". I believe the
resolution lies in comprehending ontology and its relationship to
objectivity.
However there is a deeper problem with the existence of evil in
particular. The problem arises in mysticism and its relation to logic
even when ontology is fully realized. To put it as simply as I can,
"Being" becomes equated with the "Good" and therefore the logical
problem of evil occurs. If evil is, it is being and therefore it is
inherently good and hence a contradiction. The popular version is that
if God is all good and all powerful then how did evil get created?
This problem has a long history and like most paradoxes it can be
resolved. One attempt (that fails I think) is to claim that evil is a
kind of absence. The religious notion of hell as being the absence of
God can be seen here.
In any case there does seem to be a kind of almost artistic (I use the
term deliberately in a perverse sense) expression associated with
certain acts. Just like art often attempts a kind of very deep
expression of reality so too do certain acts. For example in Africa
recently I read that they were "training" child soldiers by having the
bite the faces off of women. Now you can attempt to explain this on
some kind of utilitarian grounds but I think that it fails. Its like
if a big asteroid were to hit the earth and wipe us out - its not
quite evil unless someone deliberately causes it and for what reason?
There is not something purely utilitarian going on. I believe that
what we call "evil" is a "creative" possibility - again usuing the
term "creative" in a deliberately perverse and almost opposite way to
what it means. If you look at the Hanibal Lecteur character for
example you can see the portrayal of this kind of transcendent evil.
It is a kind of mocking of creativity. "You want me to create? OK,
I'll show you"
Ultimately, the meaning and message of salvation takes place only in a
place of terror which I think is the source of evil. "Salvation from
what?" is the question "Evil." is the answer. It is as if ordinary
inanimate matter, or even some "insect" or "reptilian" forms are
inherently "possessed" of this notion and our mamalian love is counter
to it. Notions like the "Borg" in fiction capture it but ultimately
what it is is the potential to interpret the world in a hostile
frightening way, a loveless and threatening way. It is the essence of
nightmare. A kind of interpretaion of the world. It is diametrically
opposed to women in particular and children even more so.
If one remains objective notions of Good and Evil can cease to be
possibilities and this possibility itself is, paradoxically the
possibility of evil. That is why the collective machine is a symbol of
it and you can see it play out in both Frankenstein and 1984. It is
the "mad scientist" at the core. Evil as a kind of lack of awareness -
but not quite - seemingly only - ultimately possessed by a term we
might call madness or evil. You can see it in the deterrent arsenals
of the cold war. It is the banality of it that causes the question
about its existence.
The origins of evil lie in "the will to power" where power here is
desired not just to effect some good end but to determine the reality
of the situation fundamentaly and be the ultimate "decider" of what is
good. This is inherently related to objectivity. The ultimate form is
demonic and a deliberate attempt to wreck. Ties to Sadism and
Masochism can then be made. See for example Sartre's Being and
Nothingness on Sadism.
IMHO - One thing for sure. If there is evil it is cold hearted.
The intellectual problem of its existence lies in the meaning of
objectivity first and subsequently of Being.
I am sorry about your sister. It is tragic that things like that
happen and that they cannot be undone.
Slip Disc
modernist terms we really have expanded the term "evil" to represent
subjective views. I've heard people refer to others as evil just
based on their looks and others refer to animals as evil. Therefore
the definitive is no longer as condensed as when initially coined and
used rather loosely. Personally I have no reference for it other than
for something that seems demonic but even with that it is a word that
I don't recall using with any frequency. At this point in time I
would have to agree with you that evil doesn't exist in any pure sense
but has become just another word that people toss around without much
thought. People may be influenced by something external which leads
them to act out a heinous crime, that act in itself may be considered
to be evil but the person may not. This is the basis of many
reformation and rehabilitative initiatives in the judicial system.
Molly
opposite of the bad or evil and so throughout history in any culture
goodness has been considered the other face of that which is brutal.
So man has always struggled against evil in order to be good; but
goodness can never come into being if there is any form of violence or
struggle." - Letters to the Schools vol I - Krishnamurti
Don Johnson
actions, specifically motivations for actions are inherently evil.
The Joker's exploits in the Dark Knight fit the bill nicely. He is
also quite mad. His purpose is Chaos and to prove his notion that
humanity is just as evil as he sees himself to be. If any of you
headshrinkers out there haven't seen this movie you should check it
out. Both the hero and the villain have serious self destructive
issues but choose opposing methods to deal with them. Very
interesting. Plus it has explosions and fast cars/bikes/planes.
Cool.
Good is also a concept. Sometimes evil is perpetrated from a desire
to do good. Chairman Mao might be the poster boy for this irony.
Pol Pot deserves mention as well.
It's a useful word. I use it but mostly to describe specific actions
or ideologies that ruin lives and economies for no good reason other
then political gain. It frustrates me to no end that what seems
obvious to me is totally misconstrued or misunderstood by so many
other people. Where I see evil another sees retribution or justice.
Like so many, many things; It's relative.
-Don
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gabbydott
understanding of mysticism. All these stories are appeals to the Good
in you to never to give up fighting over the Evil - the fallen off the
Good, in linear speaking. Very simply speaking, too, of course.
Matthijs
damage to another. (depravity scale) Some years ago I worked on a
project to predict evil acts. We used psychopathy PCL-R PCL-SV
(psychopath check list) and created an PCL-M (for non adults) in
combination with use of drugs/alcohol to make a scale. We followed
young high on our scale ranged people, to predict if they were gonna
commit a crime. Unfortually the project was shut down because it was
not possible to raise more funds. But got some conclusions I think it
is interesting to look at the history, because most serial rapers
(89%) were abused at young age. If you combine this with psychopathy
and drug/alcohol abuse it is almost certain these people will commit
crimes.
Matthijs Dokter
Matthijs
damage to another. (depravity scale) Some years ago I worked on a
project to predict evil acts. We used psychopathy PCL-R PCL-SV
(psychopath check list) and created an PCL-M (for non adults) in
combination with use of drugs/alcohol to make a scale. We followed
young high on our scale ranged people, to predict if they were gonna
commit a crime. Unfortually the project was shut down because it was
not possible to raise more funds. But got some conclusions I think it
is interesting to look at the history, because most serial rapers
(89%) were abused at young age. If you combine this with psychopathy
and drug/alcohol abuse it is almost certain these people will commit
crimes.
Matthijs Dokter
On 4 jan, 01:24, fiddler <kenandk...@gmail.com> wrote: