My fellow zombies
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archytas
Aug 2, 2011, 1:51:31 PM8/2/11
to "Minds Eye"
"We have access to a technology that would have looked like sorcery in
Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's head and read
their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us any nearer to
knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you measure brainwaves,
you can never know exactly what experience they represent," says
psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, UK. If
anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's maxim. You, too,
might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says Stanford
University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even if you don't
realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based on the belief,
particularly common among neuroscientists who study brain scans, that
we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the machine; our
actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely beyond our
control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an illusion.
So, it may well be that you live in a computer simulation in which you
are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a zombie and so
could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent New Scientist)
We range over debates in free will and what it is to be human. So far
we haven't established free will or even that we are not merely
avatars in 'something else's game'.
I wonder whether there are advantages in considering ourselves as
creatures limited by programming and also capable of it?
Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's head and read
their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us any nearer to
knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you measure brainwaves,
you can never know exactly what experience they represent," says
psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, UK. If
anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's maxim. You, too,
might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says Stanford
University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even if you don't
realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based on the belief,
particularly common among neuroscientists who study brain scans, that
we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the machine; our
actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely beyond our
control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an illusion.
So, it may well be that you live in a computer simulation in which you
are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a zombie and so
could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent New Scientist)
We range over debates in free will and what it is to be human. So far
we haven't established free will or even that we are not merely
avatars in 'something else's game'.
I wonder whether there are advantages in considering ourselves as
creatures limited by programming and also capable of it?
Jo
Aug 2, 2011, 2:44:43 PM8/2/11
to "Minds Eye"
I don't understand how some can say we don't have free will. You can
choose to do anything you want at any given time. How is that not free
will?
choose to do anything you want at any given time. How is that not free
will?
Message has been deleted
ornamentalmind
Aug 2, 2011, 4:31:31 PM8/2/11
to "Minds Eye"
As an aside, very few can direct their dreams in the dream state. This
alone is about 1/3 of our life.
On Aug 2, 12:53 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Of the various choices before you , you choose to do that which your
> nature decides upon at any given moment. You may let go an opportunity
> now to fiercely grasp at a later moment. The choice, of course , is
> yours but you are under the control of various motivating forces
> which, taking control of your very free will, make you do that which
> the strongest force within you at a given moment wants to be done.
> That which you do today you will not do tomorrow and all with a
> seemingly free will. You can con yourself by opening and closing your
> grip that you are the master , but you are not. It is only your
> reasoning processes which are at play , which take control over you at
> times just as your basic desires. When you think it appears that you
> are thinking freely but actually it is some part of your personality
> which is carrying you along. If you take psycho-tropic drugs you will
> think and act in a bizarre manner but with what to you is free will.
alone is about 1/3 of our life.
On Aug 2, 12:53 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Of the various choices before you , you choose to do that which your
> nature decides upon at any given moment. You may let go an opportunity
> now to fiercely grasp at a later moment. The choice, of course , is
> yours but you are under the control of various motivating forces
> which, taking control of your very free will, make you do that which
> the strongest force within you at a given moment wants to be done.
> That which you do today you will not do tomorrow and all with a
> seemingly free will. You can con yourself by opening and closing your
> grip that you are the master , but you are not. It is only your
> reasoning processes which are at play , which take control over you at
> times just as your basic desires. When you think it appears that you
> are thinking freely but actually it is some part of your personality
> which is carrying you along. If you take psycho-tropic drugs you will
> think and act in a bizarre manner but with what to you is free will.
pol.science kid
Aug 2, 2011, 5:59:30 PM8/2/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
i killed a dog.. my zombieness made me do it....
--
EverComing
EverComing
Vam
Aug 2, 2011, 8:06:09 PM8/2/11
to "Minds Eye"
Seems everybody else is competent, knowledgeable and certain about
matters only " X " may be privy to !
Today morning, I toyed with the thought... then asked for a cup of
coffee instead of the usual tea. It's a matter of fact... I do not
remember having coffee as my first cup of the day.
Then, too, I toyed with the thought... and decided to take my car for
pollution check today itself, when I could easily have performed the
task on any one the next 5 days.
Now, all my contemporaries can show me the research papers, the
library full... and can pronounce with all manner of reasoning and
rhetoric, their own beliefs and opinions, but the fact that is clear
to me, as was then when it happened and now as I recall... is that I
did act out of my own free will.
I believe it's everyone's job and responsibility to come to their own
understanding and conclusion in such matters, and actually fob off all
manner of opinions that ' scientists ' and ' researchers ' are
throwing out ... dicting and contradicting, everyday.
I suspect matters are much simpler and immediately accessible to each
one of us.
matters only " X " may be privy to !
Today morning, I toyed with the thought... then asked for a cup of
coffee instead of the usual tea. It's a matter of fact... I do not
remember having coffee as my first cup of the day.
Then, too, I toyed with the thought... and decided to take my car for
pollution check today itself, when I could easily have performed the
task on any one the next 5 days.
Now, all my contemporaries can show me the research papers, the
library full... and can pronounce with all manner of reasoning and
rhetoric, their own beliefs and opinions, but the fact that is clear
to me, as was then when it happened and now as I recall... is that I
did act out of my own free will.
I believe it's everyone's job and responsibility to come to their own
understanding and conclusion in such matters, and actually fob off all
manner of opinions that ' scientists ' and ' researchers ' are
throwing out ... dicting and contradicting, everyday.
I suspect matters are much simpler and immediately accessible to each
one of us.
archytas
Aug 2, 2011, 8:34:30 PM8/2/11
to "Minds Eye"
Much wise in what you say RP and indeed, Orn, many believe they have
no dreams at all. I note Polkid is beginning his serial killer trip.
I'm not very keen on these tricky questions we can't answer but can
use to expose naive and unexamined lives. I went on a long walk with
some old colleagues who moved into brain science some years back and
it was noticeable that they are all more convinced free will does not
exist than I. Humankind seems generally pathetic against the vastness
we seem to have some awareness of and nothing is given to us as to
what to do
I have little interest in pursuing the question of free will - in
normal dialogue of words, concepts, shapes and patterns I see no end
to it and many sides. Humankind does little in any of this as far as
we can guess and has no direction on what to seek to achieve we can
guess. We may know more in the future, but also may not be the
future. We accede to five senses, though 20 may be more accurate and
at least 2 more are known in dolphins than we possess. I can tell a
story of cooling hydrogen molecules and H3+ in the forming of stars
which were our birth that suggest some form of 'shaping knowledge'
even in the inorganic and the tale of the most, that that must be but
which we cannot see and yet I can only describe my own free will in
comparison with uninspiring robots. Some god might unplug us at any
time.
Much of the brain science going on finds that human beings do not make
rational decisions. I suspect they may have been wasting their
electrodes, as most of us are so poor at critical reasoning it
wouldn't make sense for us to use it. We may not be far off a robot
programmed with emotional responses that match or exceed our own. I
believe most people are tranced and cannot think their way out of a
wet paper bag. This is not unusual in pack and herd conditions.This
is a biological trance in my view.
For me there has to be more than the striving of science and I don't
want this to be a religious crock. If you think you have free will
because you can choose between varieties of toy and other ADMASS
drivel then pass on by - free will for me would concern beating
Einstein's speed of light and its constrictions - but even then I
would not know I was free rather than selecting from pre-programmed
alternatives or being switched.
The questions come after this 'indecision' as do those of what is
observing and its picture.
no dreams at all. I note Polkid is beginning his serial killer trip.
I'm not very keen on these tricky questions we can't answer but can
use to expose naive and unexamined lives. I went on a long walk with
some old colleagues who moved into brain science some years back and
it was noticeable that they are all more convinced free will does not
exist than I. Humankind seems generally pathetic against the vastness
we seem to have some awareness of and nothing is given to us as to
what to do
I have little interest in pursuing the question of free will - in
normal dialogue of words, concepts, shapes and patterns I see no end
to it and many sides. Humankind does little in any of this as far as
we can guess and has no direction on what to seek to achieve we can
guess. We may know more in the future, but also may not be the
future. We accede to five senses, though 20 may be more accurate and
at least 2 more are known in dolphins than we possess. I can tell a
story of cooling hydrogen molecules and H3+ in the forming of stars
which were our birth that suggest some form of 'shaping knowledge'
even in the inorganic and the tale of the most, that that must be but
which we cannot see and yet I can only describe my own free will in
comparison with uninspiring robots. Some god might unplug us at any
time.
Much of the brain science going on finds that human beings do not make
rational decisions. I suspect they may have been wasting their
electrodes, as most of us are so poor at critical reasoning it
wouldn't make sense for us to use it. We may not be far off a robot
programmed with emotional responses that match or exceed our own. I
believe most people are tranced and cannot think their way out of a
wet paper bag. This is not unusual in pack and herd conditions.This
is a biological trance in my view.
For me there has to be more than the striving of science and I don't
want this to be a religious crock. If you think you have free will
because you can choose between varieties of toy and other ADMASS
drivel then pass on by - free will for me would concern beating
Einstein's speed of light and its constrictions - but even then I
would not know I was free rather than selecting from pre-programmed
alternatives or being switched.
The questions come after this 'indecision' as do those of what is
observing and its picture.
allan deheretic
Aug 3, 2011, 3:32:34 AM8/3/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Archytas what a brilliant thought or at least direction.. in reading what you and other said.. What if we are truly in a Zombie state meaning that before we are born we are spiritual beings with full knowledge of the Creator and the spiritual world.. Maybe we give up our spiritual knowledge and way of life to better ourselves spiritually..
essentially when we are born we become zombies ,, now the question becomes as our life a Zombie for our spiritual enhancement or diminish our standing at the time of our rebirth into the spiritual world? (or death as this is commonly known.)
Allan
--
(
)
I_D Allan
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
(
)
I_D Allan
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Lee Douglas
Aug 3, 2011, 7:49:29 AM8/3/11
to "Minds Eye"
Heheh it always comes back to this discussion dosen't it?
RP it is of course possible to act in a contrary way to your nature,
isn't it.
I am largley an honest man, I would not steal the property of another,
but I could, I could make that choice and perform that action.
Let me make it clear, we can only choose from a limited number of
choices, we do not have unfettered choice, I could never fly by myself
unaided by science. I can though choose to go back to bed instead of
go to work, I can choose what route I take to get me to a place.
All of our choices come with consequences and yes truely these
concequnes may indeed colour our choices, but we can still choose to
act in a way that brings about bad consequences, we are free to do
that.
On Aug 2, 8:53 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Of the various choices before you , you choose to do that which your
> nature decides upon at any given moment. You may let go an opportunity
> now to fiercely grasp at a later moment. The choice, of course , is
> yours but you are under the control of various motivating forces
> which, taking control of your very free will, make you do that which
> the strongest force within you at a given moment wants to be done.
> That which you do today you will not do tomorrow and all with a
> seemingly free will. You can con yourself by opening and closing your
> grip that you are the master , but you are not. It is only your
> reasoning processes which are at play , which take control over you at
> times just as your basic desires. When you think it appears that you
> are thinking freely but actually it is some part of your personality
> which is carrying you along. If you take psycho-tropic drugs you will
> think and act in a bizarre manner but with what to you is free will.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 12:14 AM, Jo <jojocasame...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> creatures limited by programming and also capable of it?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
RP it is of course possible to act in a contrary way to your nature,
isn't it.
I am largley an honest man, I would not steal the property of another,
but I could, I could make that choice and perform that action.
Let me make it clear, we can only choose from a limited number of
choices, we do not have unfettered choice, I could never fly by myself
unaided by science. I can though choose to go back to bed instead of
go to work, I can choose what route I take to get me to a place.
All of our choices come with consequences and yes truely these
concequnes may indeed colour our choices, but we can still choose to
act in a way that brings about bad consequences, we are free to do
that.
On Aug 2, 8:53 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Of the various choices before you , you choose to do that which your
> nature decides upon at any given moment. You may let go an opportunity
> now to fiercely grasp at a later moment. The choice, of course , is
> yours but you are under the control of various motivating forces
> which, taking control of your very free will, make you do that which
> the strongest force within you at a given moment wants to be done.
> That which you do today you will not do tomorrow and all with a
> seemingly free will. You can con yourself by opening and closing your
> grip that you are the master , but you are not. It is only your
> reasoning processes which are at play , which take control over you at
> times just as your basic desires. When you think it appears that you
> are thinking freely but actually it is some part of your personality
> which is carrying you along. If you take psycho-tropic drugs you will
> think and act in a bizarre manner but with what to you is free will.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 12:14 AM, Jo <jojocasame...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Lee Douglas
Aug 3, 2011, 7:49:58 AM8/3/11
to "Minds Eye"
Heh yes but still some of us can huh OM.
Message has been deleted
rigsy03
Aug 3, 2011, 9:59:53 AM8/3/11
to "Minds Eye"
Two of my sons want us to start a coffee plantation. I keep thinking
of Isak Dinesen/Karen Blixen- "Out of Africa".
of Isak Dinesen/Karen Blixen- "Out of Africa".
Lee Douglas
Aug 3, 2011, 10:57:07 AM8/3/11
to "Minds Eye"
Heheh now now RP.
If I wasw so inclined could take offense at these words, my reasoning
is not mature enough indeed!
However we both know that an attack on the person rather than the
persons arguments are called......? And is indicitive of.......?
So in this case I'll rest easy knowing that you cannot or will not
counter my argument, therefore I am right whoohoo! ;¬)
Do a little bit of experimenation my freind and let me know the
result.
I refer of course to my sandwhich experiment.
Make for yourself three sandwhichs, one of a substance you love, one
that you hate and one of any kind.
Choose which sandwhich or indeed sandwhiches to eat.
Is it possible to eat only the one you love?
Is it possible to eat only the one you hate?
Is it possible to eat any in any combination?
Is it possible for you to eat the sandwhich you hate even though you
do not wish to?
By what trick of the mind, or act of 'faculite control' is it possible
for a hungry man to not eat? Other than of course my prefered option,
freedom of choice.
On Aug 3, 1:23 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When you say you can do this and do that it is your reason which is at
> work , and the reason itself is bound by the depth of your
> understanding. It takes a lot of time , patience and introspection to
> fine tone your understanding , otherwise you will just keep on conning
> yourself that it is in your hands to open or close your fist , which
> apparently is to prove to yourself that you are free. But , my friend
> Lee , your reason is not in your hands rather you are in its grip and
> when your reason matures due to considerable deliberations , you will
> realize that you are under the control of your faculties and not vice
> verse.
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
If I wasw so inclined could take offense at these words, my reasoning
is not mature enough indeed!
However we both know that an attack on the person rather than the
persons arguments are called......? And is indicitive of.......?
So in this case I'll rest easy knowing that you cannot or will not
counter my argument, therefore I am right whoohoo! ;¬)
Do a little bit of experimenation my freind and let me know the
result.
I refer of course to my sandwhich experiment.
Make for yourself three sandwhichs, one of a substance you love, one
that you hate and one of any kind.
Choose which sandwhich or indeed sandwhiches to eat.
Is it possible to eat only the one you love?
Is it possible to eat only the one you hate?
Is it possible to eat any in any combination?
Is it possible for you to eat the sandwhich you hate even though you
do not wish to?
By what trick of the mind, or act of 'faculite control' is it possible
for a hungry man to not eat? Other than of course my prefered option,
freedom of choice.
On Aug 3, 1:23 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When you say you can do this and do that it is your reason which is at
> work , and the reason itself is bound by the depth of your
> understanding. It takes a lot of time , patience and introspection to
> fine tone your understanding , otherwise you will just keep on conning
> yourself that it is in your hands to open or close your fist , which
> apparently is to prove to yourself that you are free. But , my friend
> Lee , your reason is not in your hands rather you are in its grip and
> when your reason matures due to considerable deliberations , you will
> realize that you are under the control of your faculties and not vice
> verse.
allan deheretic
Aug 3, 2011, 11:07:28 AM8/3/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I more or less have always been able to direct them.. most of the time it is more fun to see them flow..
Allan
Vam
Aug 3, 2011, 5:18:37 PM8/3/11
to "Minds Eye"
That's a wonderful thought but a line I have no idea about.
I've been to tea plantations in north-east and the coffee plantations
in Mannar and Coorg down south here. They are amazing, beautiful, and
give you the feeling of " This is It !"
Glad to resume our interaction, Rigsy !
I've been to tea plantations in north-east and the coffee plantations
in Mannar and Coorg down south here. They are amazing, beautiful, and
give you the feeling of " This is It !"
Glad to resume our interaction, Rigsy !
Vam
Aug 3, 2011, 5:30:52 PM8/3/11
to "Minds Eye"
" If you think you have free will
because you can choose between varieties of toy and other ADMASS
drivel then pass on by - free will for me would concern beating
Einstein's speed of light and its constrictions - but even then I
would not know I was free rather than selecting from pre-programmed
alternatives or being switched."
Are you still identified with Neo, in Matrix ?
because you can choose between varieties of toy and other ADMASS
drivel then pass on by - free will for me would concern beating
Einstein's speed of light and its constrictions - but even then I
would not know I was free rather than selecting from pre-programmed
alternatives or being switched."
What has free will to do with anything concerning Einstein or speed of
light ?
I find the association demented.
How is free will, the exercise of choice, in a toy shop any different
from the same in any other situation ?
The Wiki says : Free will is the apparent ability of agents to make
choices free from certain kinds of constraints. Isn't it what you are
speaking of ?
gabbydott
Aug 3, 2011, 7:05:14 PM8/3/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
How about old Jesus' speed at ascension? Wouldn't he count as unconstrained by agency at that point in time? Without the being Neo burden, I mean?
allan deheretic
Aug 4, 2011, 2:04:32 AM8/4/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
the problem with Neo is he is hard wired into the system and dependent on the hard wiring
Allan
gabbydott
Aug 4, 2011, 5:58:23 AM8/4/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Which hard wiring are you referring to? Neo to Keanu Reeves or Neo to his script?
allan deheretic
Aug 4, 2011, 6:06:14 AM8/4/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
neo to his script
Allan
gabbydott
Aug 4, 2011, 7:45:47 AM8/4/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Hm, I see the problem, but sustainable knowledge communication has become more flexible even in its firmness compared to the days of truths being written in stone, don't you think? Just watch our new blog culture, everyone can be the scribor of their own script!
archytas
Aug 4, 2011, 8:41:00 AM8/4/11
to "Minds Eye"
I gave up on the Matrix when I realised Nerds thought it neat. Some
animations are better acted than traditional film and some avatars
already seem smarter than we manage as a mob. I want Vam to be right
on some form of simple apprehension, but suspect he isn't in the end.
Even in Allan's 'play' we can still ask 'what's it all about Alfie'?
I do 'sense' along your lines Allan.
We can't reach philosophical conclusion of this, but we can turn the
'attitude' on normal areas of life like the struggle to earn through
work and the futility of this as governments spend on wars we can't
afford and slash wages in a mad scheme that allows money to make money
rather than rewarding labour. Economics is similarly 'empty' of
purpose. An old friend is over from the States (we were soldiers) and
he was bemoaning the collapse of our pub life here. The reason is
obvious - in 30 years wages have fallen to such a massive extent that
the bottom 20%, who used to hold 15% of the country's cash at any
given time, now has less than 1% of it. Being Zombies they haven't
noticed and are now drinking themselves to death at home on cheap
cider.
I suppose I suggest there is something of Chomsky in the notion we
might be Zombies - the same reasoning tends to deconstruct most of our
cherished institutions. What we lack is some sense of the other side
of the deconstruction. This is what concerns me - what is belief once
you know belief is arbitrary? What is in the feeling of despair that
knowing this can bring? I'm always struck as a scientist that I give
up easy social and traditional explanation and that this lacks
something.
On Aug 4, 12:45 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hm, I see the problem, but sustainable knowledge communication has become
> more flexible even in its firmness compared to the days of truths being
> written in stone, don't you think? Just watch our new blog culture, everyone
> can be the scribor of their own script!
>
animations are better acted than traditional film and some avatars
already seem smarter than we manage as a mob. I want Vam to be right
on some form of simple apprehension, but suspect he isn't in the end.
Even in Allan's 'play' we can still ask 'what's it all about Alfie'?
I do 'sense' along your lines Allan.
We can't reach philosophical conclusion of this, but we can turn the
'attitude' on normal areas of life like the struggle to earn through
work and the futility of this as governments spend on wars we can't
afford and slash wages in a mad scheme that allows money to make money
rather than rewarding labour. Economics is similarly 'empty' of
purpose. An old friend is over from the States (we were soldiers) and
he was bemoaning the collapse of our pub life here. The reason is
obvious - in 30 years wages have fallen to such a massive extent that
the bottom 20%, who used to hold 15% of the country's cash at any
given time, now has less than 1% of it. Being Zombies they haven't
noticed and are now drinking themselves to death at home on cheap
cider.
I suppose I suggest there is something of Chomsky in the notion we
might be Zombies - the same reasoning tends to deconstruct most of our
cherished institutions. What we lack is some sense of the other side
of the deconstruction. This is what concerns me - what is belief once
you know belief is arbitrary? What is in the feeling of despair that
knowing this can bring? I'm always struck as a scientist that I give
up easy social and traditional explanation and that this lacks
something.
On Aug 4, 12:45 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hm, I see the problem, but sustainable knowledge communication has become
> more flexible even in its firmness compared to the days of truths being
> written in stone, don't you think? Just watch our new blog culture, everyone
> can be the scribor of their own script!
>
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 12:06 PM, allan deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > neo to his script
> > Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > neo to his script
> > Allan
>
> > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:58 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Which hard wiring are you referring to? Neo to Keanu Reeves or Neo to his
> >> script?
>
>
> >> Which hard wiring are you referring to? Neo to Keanu Reeves or Neo to his
> >> script?
>
> >> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 8:04 AM, allan deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> the problem with Neo is he is hard wired into the system
> >>> and dependent on the hard wiring
> >>> Allan
>
>
> >>> the problem with Neo is he is hard wired into the system
> >>> and dependent on the hard wiring
> >>> Allan
>
> >>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:05 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> How about old Jesus' speed at ascension? Wouldn't he count as
> >>>> unconstrained by agency at that point in time? Without the being Neo burden,
> >>>> I mean?
>
>
> >>>> How about old Jesus' speed at ascension? Wouldn't he count as
> >>>> unconstrained by agency at that point in time? Without the being Neo burden,
> >>>> I mean?
>
rigsy03
Aug 4, 2011, 8:50:00 AM8/4/11
to "Minds Eye"
Me too! I remembered your name- the long form.
We are thinking about Hawaii. It seems very labor intensive. Maybe I
will just watch from the veranda! lol
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
We are thinking about Hawaii. It seems very labor intensive. Maybe I
will just watch from the veranda! lol
rigsy03
Aug 4, 2011, 8:54:45 AM8/4/11
to "Minds Eye"
Science is also an intense rivalry- to be first, to be right, to be
everlasting.
> > > Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,- Hide quoted text -
everlasting.
gabbydott
Aug 4, 2011, 11:36:10 AM8/4/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Hahaha, Lee and me solved the technical problem of sensing the other side of deconstruction just a couple of hours ago over at Google +.
paradox
Aug 4, 2011, 11:48:31 AM8/4/11
to "Minds Eye"
There are a number of approaches to this question, Jo; but essentially
and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a very powerful
philosophical school), the deterministic tradition suggests that since
we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems immersed in a "sea" of
ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated by immutable
(replicable and predictive) physical laws, and nothing else (which
takes you back to the mind/brain question), our actions are no more
than expressions of these chemical processes, constrained at an
aggregate level by universal physical laws. When we think we make
decisions based on choice, it is the mind "stroking" itself since, in
terms of "proximate" action, we know that our decisions are preceeded
in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" (interesting work by Benjamin
Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in terms of more
deliberative action, we are pretty certain to make the same decisions
over and over again given the same set of variables, since our
cognition is hard wired, and its operations are governed by the self
same chemical processes and physical laws. Hence the question: do we
have free will? and if we do, how much free will do we have?
> > creatures limited by programming and also capable of it?- Hide quoted text -
and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a very powerful
philosophical school), the deterministic tradition suggests that since
we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems immersed in a "sea" of
ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated by immutable
(replicable and predictive) physical laws, and nothing else (which
takes you back to the mind/brain question), our actions are no more
than expressions of these chemical processes, constrained at an
aggregate level by universal physical laws. When we think we make
decisions based on choice, it is the mind "stroking" itself since, in
terms of "proximate" action, we know that our decisions are preceeded
in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" (interesting work by Benjamin
Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in terms of more
deliberative action, we are pretty certain to make the same decisions
over and over again given the same set of variables, since our
cognition is hard wired, and its operations are governed by the self
same chemical processes and physical laws. Hence the question: do we
have free will? and if we do, how much free will do we have?
Lee Douglas
Aug 4, 2011, 4:57:31 PM8/4/11
to "Minds Eye"
Heheh Ohhh Gabs you darling.
> > > > Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,- Hide quoted text -
Allan Heretic
Aug 5, 2011, 3:04:23 PM8/5/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it created. It is the consequences of those choices that can be a bitch,
Allan
Allan
paradox
Aug 5, 2011, 7:24:31 PM8/5/11
to "Minds Eye"
Do you really, Allan? Or do you really think you do? If you always
have a choice of 'A', 'B', or 'C', but you were always ever going to
choose 'C', you have free will, but is your decision freely made?
On Aug 5, 8:04 pm, Allan Heretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it created. It is the consequences of those choices that can be a bitch,
> Allan
>
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
have a choice of 'A', 'B', or 'C', but you were always ever going to
choose 'C', you have free will, but is your decision freely made?
On Aug 5, 8:04 pm, Allan Heretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it created. It is the consequences of those choices that can be a bitch,
> Allan
>
ornamentalmind
Aug 5, 2011, 8:06:09 PM8/5/11
to "Minds Eye"
....and then there is 'D', 'E', 'F', 'G', 'H'....etc.
allan deheretic
Aug 6, 2011, 3:24:35 AM8/6/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I actually do think we really have free will, If we look back at our lives from as far back as we can remember there are always choices. and we choose the path we want to follow .. and the effect of those choices. once the choice is made.. once the sands of time have written it moves on and can never be changed.. we live with the effects of our individual choices.
Yes there are those with the sever problems in Africa, yes many of them are man made , that also goes for the rest of the world and many of them are beyond our control, what becomes important is not the situation we are in but how we respond to to that situation and doing nothing is both a choice and a response. How we respond to the outside stimulus is what we are held accountable for.
Allan
rigsy03
Aug 6, 2011, 9:22:34 AM8/6/11
to "Minds Eye"
I disagree that we possess or always have free will at our disposal-
even the civil laws make distinctions. We are forced onto many paths
and decisions- softly or harshly.
On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it created. It is the consequences of those choices that can be a bitch,
> Allan
>
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
even the civil laws make distinctions. We are forced onto many paths
and decisions- softly or harshly.
On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it created. It is the consequences of those choices that can be a bitch,
> Allan
>
rigsy03
Aug 6, 2011, 9:34:53 AM8/6/11
to "Minds Eye"
We have no way of foretelling the consequences of our actions except
on a very primitive scale as actions have their own ripple effect.
Sometimes it takes years to unravel the tapestry.
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
on a very primitive scale as actions have their own ripple effect.
Sometimes it takes years to unravel the tapestry.
> You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it created. It is the consequences of those choices that can be a bitch,
> Allan
>
> Allan
>
Vam
Aug 6, 2011, 10:00:28 AM8/6/11
to "Minds Eye"
"... but is your decision freely made ?"
What is meant by " freely " made ?
Do you mean ' without being under the influence of gravity ' ?
There will always be a dynamics in our background, and some in the
foreground. So ?
What is meant by " freely " made ?
Do you mean ' without being under the influence of gravity ' ?
There will always be a dynamics in our background, and some in the
foreground. So ?
paradox
Aug 6, 2011, 11:10:06 AM8/6/11
to "Minds Eye"
Yeah, exactly.
paradox
Aug 6, 2011, 11:21:56 AM8/6/11
to "Minds Eye"
Ah, but the determinist might argue that we must not mix up
determinism in human action and decision making, with life-cycle path
determinism; at the human level, the dynamics are relatively simple
but appear to us very complex (the chemical processes regulated by
physical laws thing above). Path determinsm is incalculably complex
because its a massive multi-player temporal game, though it may appear
relatively simple IF we assume free will; complex, yes; but not
theoretically incalculable, he/she might argue.
> Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,- Hide quoted text -
determinism in human action and decision making, with life-cycle path
determinism; at the human level, the dynamics are relatively simple
but appear to us very complex (the chemical processes regulated by
physical laws thing above). Path determinsm is incalculably complex
because its a massive multi-player temporal game, though it may appear
relatively simple IF we assume free will; complex, yes; but not
theoretically incalculable, he/she might argue.
paradox
Aug 6, 2011, 11:23:59 AM8/6/11
to "Minds Eye"
This is pretty close to my personal view, rigsy.
I've always found the treatment of accountability in law truly
intriguing, and thought stimulating.
I've always found the treatment of accountability in law truly
intriguing, and thought stimulating.
paradox
Aug 6, 2011, 11:35:36 AM8/6/11
to "Minds Eye"
Lets assume (in strategic logic) that all decisions are goal directed,
and purposive. When we make (or think we make) a decision, are we
fully minded of our strategic goals, and do we conduct a comprehensive
purposive review of our options and variables, to arrive at an optimal
outcome with the best probability of advancing our strategic goals?
One could argue that this is not free will in action, since the
strategic goal itself is subject to "organic" constraints; the other
would have to concede, but could argue that the "decision process" was
as freely made within overall system constraints as is possible to do.
and purposive. When we make (or think we make) a decision, are we
fully minded of our strategic goals, and do we conduct a comprehensive
purposive review of our options and variables, to arrive at an optimal
outcome with the best probability of advancing our strategic goals?
One could argue that this is not free will in action, since the
strategic goal itself is subject to "organic" constraints; the other
would have to concede, but could argue that the "decision process" was
as freely made within overall system constraints as is possible to do.
allan deheretic
Aug 6, 2011, 1:14:22 PM8/6/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
of course there are always going to be outside influences in making any decisions,, these factors are all part of any decisions,, I wonder if the decision to cast your lot into the zombie lottery.
Allan
Message has been deleted
Vam
Aug 7, 2011, 6:18:31 AM8/7/11
to "Minds Eye"
Let's assume nothing... except " the power to make our choice within
certain constraints."
We could be making a wrong choice, a less preferred choice...
but we have the power to make it... and are free to make, or not.
certain constraints."
We could be making a wrong choice, a less preferred choice...
but we have the power to make it... and are free to make, or not.
paradox
Aug 7, 2011, 9:37:35 AM8/7/11
to "Minds Eye"
Spoken like a true hard determinist, RP :)
On Aug 6, 6:53 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Everything in the universe is following laws , we know where the Earth
> will be ten years from now because it is following laws which are
> discernible and predictable. A huge comet is detected approaching our
> Earth and we are able to calculate within no time when and where it
> will hit the Earth. Similarly life progressed from amoeba to the
> humans according to laws of nature which are not that clear , but it
> can be assumed that they are. We humans know that we are influenced by
> laws of Biology , psychology , sociology etc. and if we accept that in
> this vast machine, the Universe, we are also cogs which follow a
> definite course we will not be wrong because we are no exception to
> the general rule. In little things we know our bondage and I am
> confident that in times to come we will know and accept the totality
> of our bondage.
On Aug 6, 6:53 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Everything in the universe is following laws , we know where the Earth
> will be ten years from now because it is following laws which are
> discernible and predictable. A huge comet is detected approaching our
> Earth and we are able to calculate within no time when and where it
> will hit the Earth. Similarly life progressed from amoeba to the
> humans according to laws of nature which are not that clear , but it
> can be assumed that they are. We humans know that we are influenced by
> laws of Biology , psychology , sociology etc. and if we accept that in
> this vast machine, the Universe, we are also cogs which follow a
> definite course we will not be wrong because we are no exception to
> the general rule. In little things we know our bondage and I am
> confident that in times to come we will know and accept the totality
> of our bondage.
paradox
Aug 7, 2011, 9:38:51 AM8/7/11
to "Minds Eye"
And where does this "power" come from, Vam?
rigsy03
Aug 7, 2011, 12:16:08 PM8/7/11
to "Minds Eye"
One could trace the power back to its root and find the tendril of
determinism, imo.
determinism, imo.
Vam
Aug 7, 2011, 9:05:34 PM8/7/11
to "Minds Eye"
The power is always with us.
Vam
Aug 7, 2011, 9:09:55 PM8/7/11
to "Minds Eye"
That's the kind of pitfall one can fall into... through excessive
imagination.
There is a method to trace it back to the source.
But I do not know of anyone here who is familiar with that method.
imagination.
There is a method to trace it back to the source.
But I do not know of anyone here who is familiar with that method.
Message has been deleted
Ash
Aug 7, 2011, 10:53:49 PM8/7/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
On 8/7/2011 9:09 PM, Vam wrote:
> That's the kind of pitfall one can fall into... through excessive
> imagination.
>
> There is a method to trace it back to the source.
> But I do not know of anyone here who is familiar with that method.
Yourself included?> That's the kind of pitfall one can fall into... through excessive
> imagination.
>
> There is a method to trace it back to the source.
> But I do not know of anyone here who is familiar with that method.
Happy to see you again Vam, I am vividly eager to gain new explanations
in this area, as all else has failed miserably to explain- and I have
been looking..
Message has been deleted
allan deheretic
Aug 8, 2011, 3:18:42 AM8/8/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Yes Vam I too am looking forward to a little clarification,
excessive imagination has dragged us through the ages from the stone age to where we are today.. yes please explain your self.
Allan
gabbydott
Aug 8, 2011, 4:34:44 AM8/8/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
My thesis is that we gain and sustain our power by taking in (non-phrasal meaning) food.
I'm afraid the only acceptable proof in our context here would be via negative evidence. (see: http://www.caritas.org/activities/emergencies/food_crisis_in_east_africa.html)
Lee Douglas
Aug 8, 2011, 6:07:18 AM8/8/11
to "Minds Eye"
Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy.
At the time the Minds says take action B, then we have made a choice.
I question the ability of things to force a desicion from us and I'l
ask once again is it possible for somebody to force anybody into
makeing a choice that they do not want to?
At the time the Minds says take action B, then we have made a choice.
I question the ability of things to force a desicion from us and I'l
ask once again is it possible for somebody to force anybody into
makeing a choice that they do not want to?
ornamentalmind
Aug 8, 2011, 6:46:57 AM8/8/11
to "Minds Eye"
Lee, beyond the more subtle ideas associated with free will/choice, my
answer to your question is: Yes!
answer to your question is: Yes!
rigsy03
Aug 8, 2011, 6:47:29 AM8/8/11
to "Minds Eye"
Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and winding up at C? I
have. So far I have been going over some stuff by Sophocles.
Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner (Determinists) but
have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I think there is a
difference between choice and free will. I make choices all the time
but am not sure my will is really free.
have. So far I have been going over some stuff by Sophocles.
Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner (Determinists) but
have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I think there is a
difference between choice and free will. I make choices all the time
but am not sure my will is really free.
rigsy03
Aug 8, 2011, 6:50:22 AM8/8/11
to "Minds Eye"
Reverie. "On Reverie" by Raphael Enthoven
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/on-reverie
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/on-reverie
Vam
Aug 8, 2011, 7:02:28 AM8/8/11
to "Minds Eye"
Aye Ash... great to reconnect.
Actually, my observation about excessive imagination pertained to
Rigsy saying that we could trace back the power to free will to its
roots AND, conclusively stated, find the tendril of determinism.
If Rigsy has traced it back... we'd like to know the specifics and
how / where did she find the determinism at its root !
If she has not, which I presumed from the way she wrote, the
determinism could only be a result of excessive imagination.
The method I spoke of involves understanding of the complex phenomenon
we are. It is not logical, cerebral or intellectual... but
experiential. Hence, it is impossible to lay it out on a forum like
this.
Some of my thoughts on such an understanding is put out here : 1) @
http://bit.ly/n3sFYg and 2) @ http://bit.ly/nppWDV
Those expecting to find God or its mention here will be frustrated.
Actually, my observation about excessive imagination pertained to
Rigsy saying that we could trace back the power to free will to its
roots AND, conclusively stated, find the tendril of determinism.
If Rigsy has traced it back... we'd like to know the specifics and
how / where did she find the determinism at its root !
If she has not, which I presumed from the way she wrote, the
determinism could only be a result of excessive imagination.
The method I spoke of involves understanding of the complex phenomenon
we are. It is not logical, cerebral or intellectual... but
experiential. Hence, it is impossible to lay it out on a forum like
this.
Some of my thoughts on such an understanding is put out here : 1) @
http://bit.ly/n3sFYg and 2) @ http://bit.ly/nppWDV
Those expecting to find God or its mention here will be frustrated.
Lee Douglas
Aug 8, 2011, 7:11:20 AM8/8/11
to "Minds Eye"
Hahah OM I expected no less.
Let me then ask by what mechanicsm is it possible for somebody to
force you into makeing a choice you do not wish to make?
Let me then ask by what mechanicsm is it possible for somebody to
force you into makeing a choice you do not wish to make?
Lee Douglas
Aug 8, 2011, 7:12:38 AM8/8/11
to "Minds Eye"
Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free will are
seperate things at all.
Let us look at the words.
Free will.
The ability to chose in acordance with your will.
seperate things at all.
Let us look at the words.
Free will.
The ability to chose in acordance with your will.
allan deheretic
Aug 8, 2011, 2:09:08 PM8/8/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
am really glad to see you back van how do you arrive at "Those expecting to find God or its mention here will be frustrated."?? That has not been my experience.
Allan
allan deheretic
Aug 8, 2011, 2:12:04 PM8/8/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
;o) Vam maybe of you are having trouble finding God maybe we need to bring it up as a discussion..
("',) Allan
ornamentalmind
Aug 8, 2011, 5:09:58 PM8/8/11
to "Minds Eye"
Lee, one example would be that I feel certain that the Nazi's could
have pursuaded me quite easily.
have pursuaded me quite easily.
ornamentalmind
Aug 8, 2011, 5:10:33 PM8/8/11
to "Minds Eye"
...in other words Lee...fear of personal or other torture and/or
death.
death.
allan deheretic
Aug 9, 2011, 2:45:18 AM8/9/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Well that is called propaganda it is used a great deal in the american politics as well as else where. Most of it is done by controlling the news feeding you only the information they want you to hear..
It is used by religions and beliefs systems to an extreme extent..
Allan
paradox
Aug 9, 2011, 4:22:52 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
Clever prose; thanks :)
On Aug 8, 11:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Reverie. "On Reverie" by Raphael Enthovenhttp://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/on-reverie
On Aug 8, 11:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Reverie. "On Reverie" by Raphael Enthovenhttp://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/on-reverie
paradox
Aug 9, 2011, 4:33:25 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
This is not that great a mystery, Vam; why does anyone do anything
other than basic life regulation? They are either induced or
compelled. And what lies at the root of inducement or compulsion?
Pleasure or pain, however cerebral and sophisticated we are at
articulating it. So, "every which way is biology", the determinist
might say.
On Aug 8, 12:02 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Aye Ash... great to reconnect.
>
> Actually, my observation about excessive imagination pertained to
> Rigsy saying that we could trace back the power to free will to its
> roots AND, conclusively stated, find the tendril of determinism.
>
> If Rigsy has traced it back... we'd like to know the specifics and
> how / where did she find the determinism at its root !
>
> If she has not, which I presumed from the way she wrote, the
> determinism could only be a result of excessive imagination.
>
> The method I spoke of involves understanding of the complex phenomenon
> we are. It is not logical, cerebral or intellectual... but
> experiential. Hence, it is impossible to lay it out on a forum like
> this.
>
> Some of my thoughts on such an understanding is put out here : 1) @http://bit.ly/n3sFYg and 2) @ http://bit.ly/nppWDV
other than basic life regulation? They are either induced or
compelled. And what lies at the root of inducement or compulsion?
Pleasure or pain, however cerebral and sophisticated we are at
articulating it. So, "every which way is biology", the determinist
might say.
On Aug 8, 12:02 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Aye Ash... great to reconnect.
>
> Actually, my observation about excessive imagination pertained to
> Rigsy saying that we could trace back the power to free will to its
> roots AND, conclusively stated, find the tendril of determinism.
>
> If Rigsy has traced it back... we'd like to know the specifics and
> how / where did she find the determinism at its root !
>
> If she has not, which I presumed from the way she wrote, the
> determinism could only be a result of excessive imagination.
>
> The method I spoke of involves understanding of the complex phenomenon
> we are. It is not logical, cerebral or intellectual... but
> experiential. Hence, it is impossible to lay it out on a forum like
> this.
>
Vam
Aug 9, 2011, 4:58:58 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
I won't say I was aghast... but I would still suggest we continue to
use our cerebral matter.
The point is (1) : We ( or someone in history you know of ) sometime
choose PAIN for the body, for pleasure of the mind...
The point is (2) : We ( or someone in history you know of ) sometime
choose PAIN for the body and PAIN for the mind, for values established
in the intellect...
The point is (3) : We ( or someone in history you know of ) sometime
choose PAIN for the body, PAIN for the mind and PAIN (= sense of
loss ) for the intellect... for call of freedom in spirit.
We have the power to choose PAIN ! Even hunger, death...
Spent people, people who've never won over their self... speak of
determinism as a truth.
Fate is fact of the moment... that can add up to a smothered or lulled
life. Not the truth, which starts with us... and could be infinite !
use our cerebral matter.
The point is (1) : We ( or someone in history you know of ) sometime
choose PAIN for the body, for pleasure of the mind...
The point is (2) : We ( or someone in history you know of ) sometime
choose PAIN for the body and PAIN for the mind, for values established
in the intellect...
The point is (3) : We ( or someone in history you know of ) sometime
choose PAIN for the body, PAIN for the mind and PAIN (= sense of
loss ) for the intellect... for call of freedom in spirit.
We have the power to choose PAIN ! Even hunger, death...
Spent people, people who've never won over their self... speak of
determinism as a truth.
Fate is fact of the moment... that can add up to a smothered or lulled
life. Not the truth, which starts with us... and could be infinite !
Lee Douglas
Aug 9, 2011, 5:22:50 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
yeah but how and to do what?
Lee Douglas
Aug 9, 2011, 5:28:15 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
Yes fear is a great motivater, as is love I guess.
Although what I'm really talking about is decision.
If I am treatend with pain or death, do this or I'll cut off your
toes, I may well do as I am being threatend to do, but the moment I
make the desicion to comply, it is I that has made that desicion. In
effect I have choosen to do what I previously choose not to do.
Although what I'm really talking about is decision.
If I am treatend with pain or death, do this or I'll cut off your
toes, I may well do as I am being threatend to do, but the moment I
make the desicion to comply, it is I that has made that desicion. In
effect I have choosen to do what I previously choose not to do.
Message has been deleted
Lee Douglas
Aug 9, 2011, 7:12:34 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
hehe but according to you RP no desicions are free.
On Aug 9, 10:39 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Decision taken under duress is not a free one , you couldn't have
> chosen otherwise given your temperament.
On Aug 9, 10:39 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Decision taken under duress is not a free one , you couldn't have
> chosen otherwise given your temperament.
rigsy03
Aug 9, 2011, 7:41:13 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
One's will is shaped by numerous influences and experiences therefore
it is determined. Notes from the Underground-D does not convince me
otherwise. I'll see if Hocking can offer something.
You really have to be a detective of self and follow choice back to
its root cause. Maybe you are too young or busy! :-)
it is determined. Notes from the Underground-D does not convince me
otherwise. I'll see if Hocking can offer something.
You really have to be a detective of self and follow choice back to
its root cause. Maybe you are too young or busy! :-)
rigsy03
Aug 9, 2011, 7:45:03 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
I'm glad you enjoyed the article. Yes- the language used was nearly
hypnotic and probably moreso in French.
hypnotic and probably moreso in French.
rigsy03
Aug 9, 2011, 7:48:47 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
Not knowing where to put this, so here:
Such a tender grief of a young widow of one of the downed Navy seals-
that she feared she would forget the smell and feel of her lover.
Such a tender grief of a young widow of one of the downed Navy seals-
that she feared she would forget the smell and feel of her lover.
rigsy03
Aug 9, 2011, 7:57:22 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
I think I am a fatalist- related well to Thomas Hardy, for instance.
And F. Scott Fitzgerald.
Yes- pain can mimic pleasure in a sense by its intensity, i.e. one
"feels" versus feeling nothing.
How do you decide if people are spent or not? That seems a rash
conclusion/judgement.
And F. Scott Fitzgerald.
Yes- pain can mimic pleasure in a sense by its intensity, i.e. one
"feels" versus feeling nothing.
How do you decide if people are spent or not? That seems a rash
conclusion/judgement.
rigsy03
Aug 9, 2011, 7:59:14 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
Few are.
Message has been deleted
Lee Douglas
Aug 9, 2011, 9:34:17 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
Okay fair doo's then RP.
No sir I see no contradiction here.
My stance being that freedom of choice exists, if you make a choice
under duress it is still you, the I, making the choice.
On Aug 9, 1:30 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lee , I merely answered your question to Om , maybe I shouldn't have ,
> but doesn't it contradict what you were then asserting. Let my beliefs
> be for the moment and think of a reasonable answer.
No sir I see no contradiction here.
My stance being that freedom of choice exists, if you make a choice
under duress it is still you, the I, making the choice.
On Aug 9, 1:30 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lee , I merely answered your question to Om , maybe I shouldn't have ,
> but doesn't it contradict what you were then asserting. Let my beliefs
> be for the moment and think of a reasonable answer.
Lee Douglas
Aug 9, 2011, 9:38:38 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
Heh heh Rigsy.
Nope I think the deterministic stance is kinda like a best guess.
I mean for us to be sure that our lives are determined we need to
coreleate all causes.
Besides, I do not belive that cause and effect bars our freedom of
choice.
Nope I think the deterministic stance is kinda like a best guess.
I mean for us to be sure that our lives are determined we need to
coreleate all causes.
Besides, I do not belive that cause and effect bars our freedom of
choice.
Message has been deleted
ornamentalmind
Aug 9, 2011, 10:59:35 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
So, I take it from some of the posts here that a person living in a
threatening culture who follows the dictates of totalitarianism for
fear of being tortured or death is making that choice and on the other
hand, the person who makes a choice to rebel and is put to death is
too. In both cases it is apparently posited that one is choosing their
actions. The people who follow their inner voice and will are the ones
who die out and the rest have their spirit ‘put to death’ if not their
body. I guess I don’t see much choice here.
On Aug 9, 6:57 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lee , granted it is the I making the choice , but the question remains
> whether it is doing so freely or bound by some factors. A man is
> shouting at the top of his voice , but is he doing so bound by the
> emotion of anger or freely as you so assert ? What in your view is
> Freedom ? Do you feel emotions out of choice or do they engulf you
> automatically ?
threatening culture who follows the dictates of totalitarianism for
fear of being tortured or death is making that choice and on the other
hand, the person who makes a choice to rebel and is put to death is
too. In both cases it is apparently posited that one is choosing their
actions. The people who follow their inner voice and will are the ones
who die out and the rest have their spirit ‘put to death’ if not their
body. I guess I don’t see much choice here.
On Aug 9, 6:57 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lee , granted it is the I making the choice , but the question remains
> whether it is doing so freely or bound by some factors. A man is
> shouting at the top of his voice , but is he doing so bound by the
> emotion of anger or freely as you so assert ? What in your view is
> Freedom ? Do you feel emotions out of choice or do they engulf you
> automatically ?
Lee Douglas
Aug 9, 2011, 11:07:59 AM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
Ahh I see.
No RP, I have always maintained that free will is simply the ability
to choose. There really is no such thing as a free choice, all
choices can only be made within the bounds of the choice avaliable.
I may choose to fly unaided by mechanics, I simply cannot so, that
choice is not avaliable to me, but I can choose which mechanical
device to use to fly, glider, plane, helicopter.
As to emotions, you can still choose how you use your emotions. When
you are angry you can choose what to do with that anger if you
practice enough of course.
Myself I am never engulfed by my emotions, I have practiced hard for
many years now to be the master of my emotions, to use them as I will,
and not the other way around.
I tell you my freind, I'm the small, scruffy, poor bloke that your dad
warned you never to pick on. I have had to fight for most of my life,
and I learned a loooong time ago that if violence has to be done, it
is better done in a calm mannor, it frightens the heck out of people.
so am I emotional, yes of course who is not, but no my emotions do not
engulf me.
On Aug 9, 2:57 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lee , granted it is the I making the choice , but the question remains
> whether it is doing so freely or bound by some factors. A man is
> shouting at the top of his voice , but is he doing so bound by the
> emotion of anger or freely as you so assert ? What in your view is
> Freedom ? Do you feel emotions out of choice or do they engulf you
> automatically ?
>
>
>
No RP, I have always maintained that free will is simply the ability
to choose. There really is no such thing as a free choice, all
choices can only be made within the bounds of the choice avaliable.
I may choose to fly unaided by mechanics, I simply cannot so, that
choice is not avaliable to me, but I can choose which mechanical
device to use to fly, glider, plane, helicopter.
As to emotions, you can still choose how you use your emotions. When
you are angry you can choose what to do with that anger if you
practice enough of course.
Myself I am never engulfed by my emotions, I have practiced hard for
many years now to be the master of my emotions, to use them as I will,
and not the other way around.
I tell you my freind, I'm the small, scruffy, poor bloke that your dad
warned you never to pick on. I have had to fight for most of my life,
and I learned a loooong time ago that if violence has to be done, it
is better done in a calm mannor, it frightens the heck out of people.
so am I emotional, yes of course who is not, but no my emotions do not
engulf me.
On Aug 9, 2:57 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lee , granted it is the I making the choice , but the question remains
> whether it is doing so freely or bound by some factors. A man is
> shouting at the top of his voice , but is he doing so bound by the
> emotion of anger or freely as you so assert ? What in your view is
> Freedom ? Do you feel emotions out of choice or do they engulf you
> automatically ?
>
>
>
Message has been deleted
rigsy03
Aug 9, 2011, 5:23:32 PM8/9/11
to "Minds Eye"
We can point to many causes- our genes, mental and physical health of
mother before, during and after pregnancy, early bonding and childhood
development, placement in family, economic and social influences, etc.
Even the country of birth and historical period matter. Reason doesn't
kick in until around age seven and many early influences are
forgotten, misinterpreted or markers for life. The fact that one
cannot readily trace back to initial influences and causes does not
mean that they don't exist. At the moment of choice, I believe these
markers are part of the decision- even if the decision is to reject
the influences and do the exact opposite of the past- like a child who
swears he will be different than the parent but winds up being similar
or tries to out-do the parent and fails.
mother before, during and after pregnancy, early bonding and childhood
development, placement in family, economic and social influences, etc.
Even the country of birth and historical period matter. Reason doesn't
kick in until around age seven and many early influences are
forgotten, misinterpreted or markers for life. The fact that one
cannot readily trace back to initial influences and causes does not
mean that they don't exist. At the moment of choice, I believe these
markers are part of the decision- even if the decision is to reject
the influences and do the exact opposite of the past- like a child who
swears he will be different than the parent but winds up being similar
or tries to out-do the parent and fails.
edward mason
Aug 9, 2011, 8:36:40 PM8/9/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
"As an aside, very few can direct their dreams in the dream state. This
alone is about 1/3 of our life."
Very interesting concept, to say thte least. And I would have
to agree to point of uncertainty, however, another edge to this
conceptn is the fact that while not easily
able to control the dream actions in a dream, one can quite easily
influence the topic: (choosing a destination)
On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 1:31 PM, ornamentalmind
<ornsmind...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> As an aside, very few can direct their dreams in the dream state. This
> alone is about 1/3 of our life.
>
> On Aug 2, 12:53 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Of the various choices before you , you choose to do that which your
>> nature decides upon at any given moment. You may let go an opportunity
>> now to fiercely grasp at a later moment. The choice, of course , is
>> yours but you are under the control of various motivating forces
>> which, taking control of your very free will, make you do that which
>> the strongest force within you at a given moment wants to be done.
>> That which you do today you will not do tomorrow and all with a
>> seemingly free will. You can con yourself by opening and closing your
>> grip that you are the master , but you are not. It is only your
>> reasoning processes which are at play , which take control over you at
>> times just as your basic desires. When you think it appears that you
>> are thinking freely but actually it is some part of your personality
>> which is carrying you along. If you take psycho-tropic drugs you will
>> think and act in a bizarre manner but with what to you is free will.
alone is about 1/3 of our life."
Very interesting concept, to say thte least. And I would have
to agree to point of uncertainty, however, another edge to this
conceptn is the fact that while not easily
able to control the dream actions in a dream, one can quite easily
influence the topic: (choosing a destination)
On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 1:31 PM, ornamentalmind
<ornsmind...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> As an aside, very few can direct their dreams in the dream state. This
> alone is about 1/3 of our life.
>
> On Aug 2, 12:53 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Of the various choices before you , you choose to do that which your
>> nature decides upon at any given moment. You may let go an opportunity
>> now to fiercely grasp at a later moment. The choice, of course , is
>> yours but you are under the control of various motivating forces
>> which, taking control of your very free will, make you do that which
>> the strongest force within you at a given moment wants to be done.
>> That which you do today you will not do tomorrow and all with a
>> seemingly free will. You can con yourself by opening and closing your
>> grip that you are the master , but you are not. It is only your
>> reasoning processes which are at play , which take control over you at
>> times just as your basic desires. When you think it appears that you
>> are thinking freely but actually it is some part of your personality
>> which is carrying you along. If you take psycho-tropic drugs you will
>> think and act in a bizarre manner but with what to you is free will.
allan deheretic
Aug 10, 2011, 2:34:37 AM8/10/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Edward if you can direct or influence the topic and destination of your dream are not controlling your dream?
Allan
gabbydott
Aug 10, 2011, 2:35:20 AM8/10/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Choosing a destination, yes, or how I read it: reviewing the motivation. Have I reached total command over my Self? Coupled with a well established the-One-and-the-Many ideology this makes for an ideal Führer-personality.
allan deheretic
Aug 10, 2011, 2:51:06 AM8/10/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
so I have this right Gabby? "Sig Heil" not sure it that is right.. but what said is actuall right it just struck me as funny.
Allan
gabbydott
Aug 10, 2011, 3:01:54 AM8/10/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I don't know, Allan. This is the "my fellow zombies" thread and not your robot joke thread.
Lee Douglas
Aug 10, 2011, 6:26:57 AM8/10/11
to "Minds Eye"
Yes it does not mean that that they do not exist, but it does mean
that this stance is as aI say a best guess, or perhaps we shall call
it an inferance.
Yes again I belive that these markers may well be part of the
desicion, yet you can still choose to act contrary to any of these
markers.
If you are non violent you act in a violent mannor, if you are violent
you can choose to not use violence. And what is a marker, is it a
force or as the word suggests a marker?
that this stance is as aI say a best guess, or perhaps we shall call
it an inferance.
Yes again I belive that these markers may well be part of the
desicion, yet you can still choose to act contrary to any of these
markers.
If you are non violent you act in a violent mannor, if you are violent
you can choose to not use violence. And what is a marker, is it a
force or as the word suggests a marker?
rigsy03
Aug 10, 2011, 8:53:01 AM8/10/11
to "Minds Eye"
Well, Hocking made some sense to me about Free Will- though I could
read it again. It goes like this- if we can reflect upon ourselves- as
an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners-
and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions. Reflection
is an endless process rather than fixed. But- "freedom is a matter of
degree".
read it again. It goes like this- if we can reflect upon ourselves- as
an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners-
and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions. Reflection
is an endless process rather than fixed. But- "freedom is a matter of
degree".
Vam
Aug 10, 2011, 4:27:46 PM8/10/11
to "Minds Eye"
"... if we can reflect upon ourselves- as
speaking of !
Most people do not discover this. And if they do, they do not practice
it enough to lead to empowerment. It is because of this that they
continue to look upon themselves as programmed robots and automatons,
and continue to doubt the clear measure of power they have to choose
their beliefs, thoughts, words and action. Then they project it over
entire humanity, as us all being some creation of some obscure god
playing fiddle. Fking shit ! Such regressives should be barred from
public activity, and sent to a correction facility instead.
an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners-
and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions."
This is the kind of experiential understanding and empowerment I was
and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions."
speaking of !
Most people do not discover this. And if they do, they do not practice
it enough to lead to empowerment. It is because of this that they
continue to look upon themselves as programmed robots and automatons,
and continue to doubt the clear measure of power they have to choose
their beliefs, thoughts, words and action. Then they project it over
entire humanity, as us all being some creation of some obscure god
playing fiddle. Fking shit ! Such regressives should be barred from
public activity, and sent to a correction facility instead.
Message has been deleted
allan deheretic
Aug 11, 2011, 2:09:19 AM8/11/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Sorry RP Vam has both the wisdom and authority to make such a statement.
Allan
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:20 AM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
Vehement language , Vam , I don't think you have the authority to use
such words against others. Maybe , you are a great success but what
makes you think that all others having a determinist view are spent
people ?
Lee Douglas
Aug 11, 2011, 5:03:22 AM8/11/11
to "Minds Eye"
Yes I can agree that freedom is matter of degrees.
Message has been deleted
Vam
Aug 11, 2011, 5:45:59 AM8/11/11
to "Minds Eye"
RP, if you've followed the post... I seriously doubt you did...
It refers to self - reflection... whereby, with practice, one begins
to gain more and more control over oneself. It's been with us for
several millenia. All religions ordain the practice, more or less,
though the practice itself has nothing to do with " religion."
My tirade was against the bookish people, who do not really
contemplate the reality living within their own body, mind and
intellect, and understand... and yet go ahead and pronounce profoundly
depressing and weakening opinions based on what they read, see or
hear, or suffer of themselves, and pass them off to others as "
truths." What authority do they have to pass off their opinions,
personal suffering, as " truths " ?
Since you've been touched on the raw, as to come back at me
personally... are you one of the bookish types who pronounce without
having any personal experience of what the truth is ?
On Aug 11, 7:20 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Vehement language , Vam , I don't think you have the authority to use
> such words against others. Maybe , you are a great success but what
> makes you think that all others having a determinist view are spent
> people ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ...
>
> read more »
It refers to self - reflection... whereby, with practice, one begins
to gain more and more control over oneself. It's been with us for
several millenia. All religions ordain the practice, more or less,
though the practice itself has nothing to do with " religion."
My tirade was against the bookish people, who do not really
contemplate the reality living within their own body, mind and
intellect, and understand... and yet go ahead and pronounce profoundly
depressing and weakening opinions based on what they read, see or
hear, or suffer of themselves, and pass them off to others as "
truths." What authority do they have to pass off their opinions,
personal suffering, as " truths " ?
Since you've been touched on the raw, as to come back at me
personally... are you one of the bookish types who pronounce without
having any personal experience of what the truth is ?
On Aug 11, 7:20 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Vehement language , Vam , I don't think you have the authority to use
> such words against others. Maybe , you are a great success but what
> makes you think that all others having a determinist view are spent
> people ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> read more »
allan deheretic
Aug 11, 2011, 5:52:32 AM8/11/11
to mind...@googlegroups.com
good luck Vam
Allan
Lee Douglas
Aug 11, 2011, 5:53:31 AM8/11/11
to "Minds Eye"
Yes Vam.
We, and that is all of us, ultimatly have full control over our
lives. We choose how we deal with any situation, if we can get a grip
on our Selves that is.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> might be a zombie. "I- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »
We, and that is all of us, ultimatly have full control over our
lives. We choose how we deal with any situation, if we can get a grip
on our Selves that is.
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »
Vam
Aug 11, 2011, 6:28:58 AM8/11/11
to "Minds Eye"
Lee, I am aware how you have gained control over yourselves since your
angry days... becoming more free and happy in the process !
Thanks Allan.
> ...
>
> read more »
angry days... becoming more free and happy in the process !
Thanks Allan.
>
> read more »
Vam
Aug 11, 2011, 6:33:57 AM8/11/11
to "Minds Eye"
"... it takes a trained understanding to know the truth."
RP, tell us more specifically about
(1) training you speak of,
(2) the understanding that would be accrue with the training, and
(3) the truth we will know upon the understanding.
Will you ?
On Aug 11, 2:45 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can open my fingers or close them , i.e. free will is obvious. Most
> people can see only the obvious , it takes a trained understanding to
> know the truth.
> ...
>
> read more »
RP, tell us more specifically about
(1) training you speak of,
(2) the understanding that would be accrue with the training, and
(3) the truth we will know upon the understanding.
Will you ?
On Aug 11, 2:45 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can open my fingers or close them , i.e. free will is obvious. Most
> people can see only the obvious , it takes a trained understanding to
> know the truth.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:39 AM, allan deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Sorry RP Vam has both the wisdom and authority to make such a statement.
> > Allan
>
> > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:20 AM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Vehement language , Vam , I don't think you have the authority to use
> >> such words against others. Maybe , you are a great success but what
> >> makes you think that all others having a determinist view are spent
> >> people ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:39 AM, allan deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Sorry RP Vam has both the wisdom and authority to make such a statement.
> > Allan
>
> > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:20 AM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Vehement language , Vam , I don't think you have the authority to use
> >> such words against others. Maybe , you are a great success but what
> >> makes you think that all others having a determinist view are spent
> >> people ?
>
>
> read more »
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