PC dead but MOBO light on ???????
p.mc
individual post to here)
Hi
I've been getting the BSOD for the last couple of months and I thought It
may have been my DVD/RW drive, (sorry no info because of first sentence) but
a couple of days ago I was converting an .avi to .vob, (DVDsanta)...and when
I went to check on it my PC was dead.
The fuse in the kettle lead was ok so I opened up the tower and seen that
the light on the MOBO was on, so I took out my HDD's and disconnected
everything except the 20 pin supply to the MOBO and tower and CPU fans, but
to my dismay when I pushed the power button on my PC the fans didn't kick in
(1...does there have to be a HDD with the OS installed for the fans to
work?) So I'm under the impression that either the power supply is knackered
(2...but why is the MOBO light on?) or The MOBO is knackered, but then again
I'm no expert and was hoping some tech buff could help in solving my problem
(3...could the power supply have failed but have enough power for the MOBO
light and nothing else??)
I know the simple answer is to take it to a PC repair shop but I'd rather
save money "as we all do" if someone may help me solve this.
MOBO: ASUS A7A266
Power supply: FSP group inc
Model #: FSP250-60GTV (PF)
WinXP Home SP1
A few piccys of the MOBO and Power supply
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/PowersupplyforASUSA7A266MOBO.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/ASUSMOBOLight.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/P1023151.jpg
"Thanks"
--
Regards
p.mc
--
Regards
p.mc
Shenan Stanley
> ( I xposted to this and other groups but misspelled customize so
> this is an individual post to here)
>
See the answer in the other groups...
I think you have spread it a bit thin with the cross/multi-posting.
Next time - put it in one place and wait for some hits. heh
--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
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SingaporeWebDesign
I would wager that it is the power supply, especially if its more than 2
years old. Try borrowing another power supply and use it with it.
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Singapore Web Design Singapore Web Hosting
http://www.bootstrike.com/Webdesign/
"p.mc" <p...@mc.com> wrote in message
news:eJaf6l1L...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
p.mc
I've got another power supply but the connectors aren't compatible.
--
Regards
p.mc
"SingaporeWebDesign" <SingaporeWe...@bootstrike.com> wrote in
message news:esw24s1L...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
p.mc
As I wrote in my first post, I powered the MOBO with its 21 pin supply, and
also the CPU and tower fans were connected to the MOBO, but on pressing the
power button the fans didn't kick in.
I'd be over the moon if the power supply was the culprit, as you said the
unit may not be fully functional.
I'm tempted to buy a new P.Supply unit but knowing my luck it'll be the
MOBO... :-)(
I do have some mains testers that will show a 12v supply, but when I
blunderingly tried poking the 2 terminals into any of the connections of the
HDD feeds and others (Whilst the board was powered) I only got a continuity
light but as I said I'm no expert and probably not using them properly!!
--
Regards
p.mc
"databaseben" <datab...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:%2334cQn1...@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> does your powersupply
> fan turn on / engage?
>
> if not, then the p.s.
> is a reasonable and
> likely cause of your problem.
>
> just because a little light
> comes on, doesnt mean
> the p.s. is fully functional.
>
> a bunch of wires and static
> can induce electricity enough
> for little lights to glow...
>
>
> "p.mc" <p...@mc.com> wrote in message
> news:uBiRBf1L...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
databaseben
pics and your mobo is squeeky clean which
is a bit unusual.
Alsok the label for the p,s, is a bit
faded which shows some of its age
even though everything looks clean
and new.
However the mobo and
p.s. are a bit old and the new dvd
player may have been a burden on the system.
I didn't catch if you tried running the mobo
without the dvd player. But this is likely
a moot point now.
Unfortunately, the only alternative to figure
out what exactly is the cause of the problem
you are having would be to break out
a multimeter and do voltage checks to see
where the power stops and starts
that supply the mobo and other hardware.
But if the fan inside of the powersupply
doesnt kick in, regardless of the
other fans on the mobo, it is likely
your p.s. went out. Further if the mobo
were bad, the fan inside the p.s
would kick in anyways since a simple
on and off switch controls the p.s.
Without the technical
know how, your only option
is to use the "process of elimination"
As suggested, get a new p.s. and keep
the receipt. if it fixes the problem
then you will have a wonderful trip
over the moon. if not you'll have a
wonderful trip back to the store.
but before taking it back, let us know
what were your results...
"p.mc" <p...@mc.com> wrote in message
news:%23Bk3fC2...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Spikey
> You took some pretty good
> pics and your mobo is squeeky clean which
> is a bit unusual.
>
suspecting the fans havent been working for some time as even in a filtered
case they bring in some fine dust.
databaseben
for analyzing a machine are the senses, eg.,
a visual inspection
provides lots of information;
a audio inspection
provides lots of information;
a bouquet of ozone or
melted chemicals tells the
nose a lot too.
and
if you feel a little tingly
when you touch it,
it could either be a feeling of
love or an electrical short...
"Spikey" <hedge...@NOSPAMbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:ONo0Pr2L...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
p.mc
I was in the process of elimination by disconnecting everything but the p,s
to the MOBO, with the exception of leaving the supply from the MOBO to the
CPU fan and tower fan.I was going put the hardware back in one at a time
'till the fault showed, but alas the fault was there with only 2 fans on the
MOBO (that's why I asked if I needed to put one of my HDD's in to boot up,
and maybe then the fans would kick in) but anyway you didn't think it was
necessary.
I've had this machine for about 10 years and regularly dust and hover the
parts inside (especially fans), I've had numerous HDD's and DVD/RW's over
the years and only recently replaced the CPU fan 'cause I lent my original
to a mate ''cause his broke and guess what? I had to buy a new one after
many hints that I needed mine back. The PC has been switched on continuously
for most of them years and been a hard worker for me, but as you said the
p,s fan didn't run also which leads me to believe that it is most likely to
be the p,s at fault.
I suppose I've had my moneys worth out of the p,s, but it just goes to show
a good routine of cleaning must add a few years to the PC's life.
I've just been googling for a new p,s. Do I have to buy the same model
(FSP250-60GTV (PF), "to be safe") or can I buy a different model as long as
it has the same connectors I need?
If so any recommendations?
--
Regards
p.mc
"databaseben" <datab...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:eyQ8za2L...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
Ian
The way to test a PSU is to totally disconnect it, hang a load* onto one of
the 4-pin molex connectors, and ground the power-on pin 14 (usually green) on
the 20/24 way connector to any black wire on same.
* An old HD is ideal as a load. I used to keep a fullheight 5.25" 250MB disk
for this purpose. Unfortunately it got thrown out by an individual who
obviously had no appreciation of the value of such pieces of archaeology!
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/conns/connPSU.html
It's still possible that an ailing PSU may be able to supply the current
taken by a a (small modern) HD, but not the processor though.
databaseben
an opinion, so you might be
overwhelmed with responses...
but i have been very fortunate
with the tried n true. My Intel
mobo w/the Intel CPU has
been very reliable.
You can get a feel for pc's and
user comments at a site called
TigerDirect.com But as you
might know, there is a lot of info
out there....
But you can simply get a feel
for the current market and use
the information when you go
window shopping.
glad you have reached a
conclusion.....
"p.mc" <p...@mc.com> wrote in message
news:e0ICNM3L...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
databaseben
before you buy, do a little
homework and research the
mobo for the pc you are considering.
like cars that look squeeky clean,
you could be buying a klunker...
"p.mc" <p...@mc.com> wrote in message
news:e0ICNM3L...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
p.mc
news:6CA5D26E-9D8B-43F1...@microsoft.com...
> Odds are in favour of it being the PSU.
> The way to test a PSU is to totally disconnect it,
> hang a load* onto one of the 4-pin molex connectors
**(My HDD with OS on, or a DVD drive?)**
> and ground the power-on pin 14 (usually green) on
> the 20/24 way connector to any black wire on same.
**(Does that mean putting a link in between green & black?)**
**But how does this test it without pluging the PSU into the mains? And if
it is the case that I have to plug the PSU into the mains, it's simple a
matter of the LED on the DVD drive coming on or the HDD spinning to confirm
the PSU works?**
> http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/conns/connPSU.html
>
> It's still possible that an ailing PSU may be able to supply the current
> taken by a a (small modern) HD, but not the processor though.
>
--
TIA
Regards
p.mc
p.mc
I've just been looking at some new PSU's
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=003&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=130063996276&rd=1&rd=1I think my model is discontinued, I've posted a question to one supplier'cause the mobo supply states 1x 20 & 24 pin mains connector so I waswondering if it would fit into my 20 pin connection considering thecomponents either side.http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/20pinconnector.jpg--Regardsp.mc"databaseben" <datab...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in messagenews:OgRek33L...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...> post script:>> before you buy, do a little> homework and research the> mobo for the pc you are considering.>> like cars that look squeeky clean,> you could be buying a klunker...> "p.mc" <p...@mc.com> wrote in messagenews:e0ICNM3L...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...>> Hi All>>>> I was in the process of elimination by disconnecting everything but thep,s to the MOBO, with the exception of leaving the supply from the MOBO tothe CPU fan and tower fan.I was going put the hardware back in one at a time'till the fault showed, but alas the fault was there with only 2 fans on theMOBO (that's why I asked if I needed to put one of my HDD's in to boot up,and maybe then the fans would kick in) but anyway you didn't think it wasnecessary.>>>> I've had this machine for about 10 years and regularly dust and hover theparts inside (especially fans), I've had numerous HDD's and DVD/RW's overthe years and only recently replaced the CPU fan 'cause I lent my originalto a mate ''cause his broke and guess what? I had to buy a new one aftermany hints that I needed mine back. The PC has been switched on continuouslyfor most of them years and been a hard worker for me, but as you said thep,s fan didn't run also which leads me to believe that it is most likely tobe the p,s at fault.>>>> I suppose I've had my moneys worth out of the p,s, but it just goes toshow a good routine of cleaning must add a few years to the PC's life.>>>> I've just been googling for a new p,s. Do I have to buy the same model(FSP250-60GTV (PF), "to be safe") or can I buy a different model as long asit has the same connectors I need?>> If so any recommendations?>>>> -->>>> Regards>> p.mc>>>>>> "databaseben" <datab...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in messagenews:eyQ8za2L...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...>>> You took some pretty good>>> pics and your mobo is squeeky clean which>>> is a bit unusual.>>>>>> Alsok the label for the p,s, is a bit>>> faded which shows some of its age>>> even though everything looks clean>>> and new.>>>>>> However the mobo and>>> p.s. are a bit old and the new dvd>>> player may have been a burden on the system.>>> I didn't catch if you tried running the mobo>>> without the dvd player. But this is likely>>> a moot point now.>>>>>> Unfortunately, the only alternative to figure>>> out what exactly is the cause of the problem>>> you are having would be to break out>>> a multimeter and do voltage checks to see>>> where the power stops and starts>>> that supply the mobo and other hardware.>>>>>> But if the fan inside of the powersupply>>> doesnt kick in, regardless of the>>> other fans on the mobo, it is likely>>> your p.s. went out. Further if the mobo>>> were bad, the fan inside the p.s>>> would kick in anyways since a simple>>> on and off switch controls the p.s.>>>>>> Without the technical>>> know how, your only option>>> is to use the "process of elimination">>>>>> As suggested, get a new p.s. and keep>>> the receipt. if it fixes the problem>>> then you will have a wonderful trip>>> over the moon. if not you'll have a>>> wonderful trip back to the store.>>>>>> but before taking it back, let us know>>> what were your results...>>>>>>>>> "p.mc" <p...@mc.com> wrote in messagenews:%23Bk3fC2...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...>>>> Hi databaseben>>>>>>>> As I wrote in my first post, I powered the MOBO with its 21 pin supply,and also the CPU and tower fans were connected to the MOBO, but on pressingthe power button the fans didn't kick in.>>>>>>>> I'd be over the moon if the power supply was the culprit, as you saidthe unit may not be fully functional.>>>> I'm tempted to buy a new P.Supply unit but knowing my luck it'll be theMOBO... :-)(>>>>>>>> I do have some mains testers that will show a 12v supply, but when Iblunderingly tried poking the 2 terminals into any of the connections of theHDD feeds and others (Whilst the board was powered) I only got a continuitylight but as I said I'm no expert and probably not using them properly!!>>>>>>>>>>>> -->>>>>>>> Regards>>>> p.mc>>>>>>>> "databaseben" <datab...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in messagenews:%2334cQn1...@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...>>>>> does your powersupply>>>>> fan turn on / engage?>>>>>>>>>> if not, then the p.s.>>>>> is a reasonable and>>>>> likely cause of your problem.>>>>>>>>>> just because a little light>>>>> comes on, doesnt mean>>>>> the p.s. is fully functional.>>>>>>>>>> a bunch of wires and static>>>>> can induce electricity enough>>>>> for little lights to glow...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "p.mc" <p...@mc.com> wrote in messagenews:uBiRBf1L...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...>>>>>> Hi>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been getting the BSOD for the last couple of months and Ithought It may have been my DVD/RW drive, (sorry no info because of firstsentence) but a couple of days ago I was converting an .avi to .vob,(DVDsanta)...and when I went to check on it my PC was dead.>>>>>>>>>>>> The fuse in the kettle lead was ok so I opened up the tower and seenthat the light on the MOBO was on, so I took out my HDD's and disconnectedeverything except the 20 pin supply to the MOBO and tower and CPU fans, butto my dismay when I pushed the power button on my PC the fans didn't kick in(1...does there have to be a HDD with the OS installed for the fans towork?) So I'm under the impression that either the power supply is knackered(2...but why is the MOBO light on?) or The MOBO is knackered, but then againI'm no expert and was hoping some tech buff could help in solving my problem(3...could the power supply have failed but have enough power for the MOBOlight and nothing else??)>>>>>>>>>>>> I know the simple answer is to take it to a PC repair shop but I'drather save money "as we all do" if someone may help me solve this.>>>>>>>>>>>> MOBO: ASUS A7A266>>>>>> Power supply: FSP group inc>>>>>> Model #: FSP250-60GTV (PF)>>>>>> WinXP Home SP1>>>>>>>>>>>> A few piccys of the MOBO and Power supply>>>>>>>>>>>>http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/PowersupplyforASUSA7A266MOBO.jpg>>>>>>>>>>>> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/ASUSMOBOLight.jpg>>>>>>>>>>>> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/P1023151.jpg>>>>>>>>>>>> "Thanks">>>>>>>>>>>> -->>>>>>>>>>>> Regards>>>>>> p.mc>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
p.mc
Don't know what happened to the earlieir post so hopefully this one is
clearer.
I had a look at a new PSU
But it was advertised as having a 20 & 24 pin main connector, so I emailed
the seller to see if it would fit onto my 20 pin connection considering the
components either side of it.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/20pinconnector.jpg
Hopefully this will do the job. Thanks to all repliers.
--
Regards
p.mc
"databaseben" <datab...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:OgRek33L...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
RajKohli
everything is fine. If you buy a new one and it didn't either works and then
you will have no option except to take your pc to a hardware store because
you will no longer like to use your brain more.
So, my advise is to make 100% sure that the PS is faulty and then buy a new
one else you are going to waste your money.
In your first post you said that you unplug everything except 20Pin Power
Connector. Make sure that the PowerSW [2 Pin] cable is connectted in the
right port of your motherboard which is used to turn on an ATX PS and
Motherboards.
Best thing will be [as advise by "Shenan" too], borrow a PS and try it.
Hope this help, let us know!
--
Tip of The Day
=========
Add SHOW / HIDE Recycle Bin option in "Folder Options". Learn how to at:
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p.mc
I was hoping Ian would reply to confirm whether that was the way to test a
PS, maybe he'll reply tomorrow. As you said I do want to make sure that the
PS is 100% faulty, and also you were right I didn't mention I had the 2 pin
power switch connected to the board, I did test the switch with my mains
testers and it was working.
Thanks for the advice
--
Regards
p.mc
"RajKohli" <RajK...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:DDD6C16B-073A-4B47...@microsoft.com...
w_tom
suspects down to only power supply or motherboard, or ..... That mains
testing light cannot report anything useful because numbers are
required.
Light says power cord connects to AC mains. Light does not say any
voltage is sufficient. Only meter numbers can say that. Start by
measuring voltage on purple wire by pressing meter probes into 20 pin
nylon connector for purple wire and to any black wire (or touch
chassis). With computer powered off (and light still illuminated), that
number must exceed 4.87 (and it probably will). Next take the number
for green wire both before and when power switch is pressed. That
number should be above 2.0 volts and drop to less than 0.8 volts when
switch is pressed. What happens here is very informative.
Next, the gray wire. It must rise to well above 2.4 volts within
second of the power switch pressed. I suspect either voltage will not
move or will rise and then fall.
Now measure any red, orange and yellow wires when switch is pressed.
Assuming the green wire voltage did drop, then each voltage here
should rise up (and then will probably fall). Any voltage that does
not rise up, then look for a short circuit for that voltage on
motherboard. If all voltages do rise up, then within a second, each
voltage must achieve more than 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7.
Information from those quick measurements either make it obvious
which is the suspect or post those numbers here for better analysis.
Rather than 'buy this and replace that', a best solution is to
first take numbers. Just another reason why a 15 quid meter is a tool
as important as a screwdriver, as complex as an Ipod, and the
hands-down quickest answer of your question and to identify where to
start looking for a solution.
Nice pictures. But visual inspection almost never identifies a
failure. Without that meter (your only useful eyes), then replace
possibly good parts until maybe something is fixed. It is called
shotgunning. Without that meter, you are essentially blind.
Had you been recording numbers and message in the BSOD, or reviewed
information in the system (event) logs, then a suspect might have been
more quickly identified. Too late now.
A simple rule for power supplies: if manufacturer does not provide a
comprehensive list of numerical specs, well, this is how supplies
missing essential functions are dumped in a market of electrically
naive computer assemblers. A power supply must contain a long list of
functions that were required even 30 years ago. But many supplies sell
for less (and for higher profits) by forgetting to include many
essential functions. Then some assmbler says "computer powers on;
therefore it must be fine". It's not. But the naive may need other
more expensive solutions (such has a UPS) to solve what would not exist
if using a properly constructed supply. Don't buy a power supply only
on price and watts.
w_tom
> I was hoping Ian would reply to confirm whether that was the way to test a
> PS, maybe he'll reply tomorrow. As you said I do want to make sure that the
> PS is 100% faulty, and also you were right I didn't mention I had the 2 pin
> power switch connected to the board, I did test the switch with my mains
> testers and it was working.
A power supply that fails to provide sufficient voltage (or other
problems) will light the light, light the mains tester, and still be
defective. As noted previously, there is no cheaper and effective
solution that a 3.5 digit multimeter.
Also bad is to test a power supply removed from the system. Again, a
supply that is defective can even measure correct voltages with a meter
when not connected to a large load (ie motherboard). Best test of a
power supply is to test it in the computer AND with maximum load -
motherboard and peripherals.
This solution is faster and more reliable than even swapping power
supplies. It will also report which is bad - motherboard (power supply
controller) or power supply.
p.mc
"w_tom" <w_t...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:1167887090.0...@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com...
> p.mc wrote:
>> I was hoping Ian would reply to confirm whether that was the way to test
>> a
>> PS, maybe he'll reply tomorrow. As you said I do want to make sure that
>> the
>> PS is 100% faulty, and also you were right I didn't mention I had the 2
>> pin
>> power switch connected to the board, I did test the switch with my mains
>> testers and it was working.
>
> A power supply that fails to provide sufficient voltage (or other
> problems) will light the light, light the mains tester, and still be
> defective. As noted previously, there is no cheaper and effective
> solution that a 3.5 digit multimeter.
**(Is this what you were refering to)**
http://www.powercenta.co.uk/storefrontprofiles/processfeed.aspx?sfid=79410&i=198797736&mpid=4033&dfid=1
If so I'll buy the tester for future problems. As I said earlier I did test
for continuity across the power switch with my voltage testers which was
easy enough, but also they measure between12v and 600v and to be honest I
didn't know what pins to test between (20 pin mains) to determine if there
was a supply for the MOBO and peripherals.
>
> Also bad is to test a power supply removed from the system. Again, a
> supply that is defective can even measure correct voltages with a meter
> when not connected to a large load (ie motherboard). Best test of a
> power supply is to test it in the computer AND with maximum load -
> motherboard and peripherals.
Now if I use the 3.5 digit multimeter, lets say I'm testing a 4 pin
connector to my HDD, the cables being;
1x red.......5v
2x black....common
1x yellow...+12v
**This is using this chart for reference:
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/conns/connPSU.html
Would I put one end of the tester into a common and with the other
alternating from red to yellow to see if there is a 5v and +12v supply?
What do the "black" cables do, are they like the -negative on a battery
drawing the power through?
I thought "common" meant feed!
>
> This solution is faster and more reliable than even swapping power
> supplies. It will also report which is bad - motherboard (power supply
> controller) or power supply.
--
Regards
p.mc
>
p.mc
I'll buy a 3.5 digit multimeter hopefully tomorrow and do as instructed
either tomorrow or Monday.
I'll put back and connect all hardware and start the test and post the
outcome. Unfortunately I didn't record event log, I did write down the BSOD
but mislaid it, presuming that the DVD/RW was at fault I probably binned the
info.
"Thanks to all who replied" I'm sure this thread will benefit others who
read this very instructive and informative thread.
On your info... "Don't buy a power supply only on price and watts."
Well I did want to replace it with the same PS thinking the manufacturer
"Evesham" knows best,but I think they're becoming obsolete. I also read that
a 400-450watt PS was better suited to the XP platform!! so if I do need one
I was going for this model:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=003&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=130063996276&rd=1&rd=1I must admit I chose it on price and wattage, but to be honest, besideschanging like for like I wouldnt have a clue what to buy.*...WinXP Home SP1*...ASUS A7A266 MOBO*...2x DVD/RW*...1x DVD ROM*...1x Creative Soundblaster live 5.1*...1x Nvidia Graphics*...1x Adaptech ASH 1205 SA Host Controller PCI Card*...1x Sata 180gb Maxtor HDD*...1x Sata 300gb Maxtor HDDModen & Floppy--Regardsp.mc"w_tom" <w_t...@usa.net> wrote in messagenews:1167886326.7...@31g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...> In but a minute with a 3.5 digit multimeter, trim the list of> suspects down to only power supply or motherboard, or ..... That mains> testing light cannot report anything useful because numbers are> required.>> Light says power cord connects to AC mains. Light does not say any> voltage is sufficient. Only meter numbers can say that. Start by> measuring voltage on purple wire by pressing meter probes into 20 pin> nylon connector for purple wire and to any black wire (or touch> chassis). With computer powered off (and light still illuminated), that> number must exceed 4.87 (and it probably will). Next take the number> for green wire both before and when power switch is pressed. That> number should be above 2.0 volts and drop to less than 0.8 volts when> switch is pressed. What happens here is very informative.>> Next, the gray wire. It must rise to well above 2.4 volts within> second of the power switch pressed. I suspect either voltage will not> move or will rise and then fall.>> Now measure any red, orange and yellow wires when switch is pressed.> Assuming the green wire voltage did drop, then each voltage here> should rise up (and then will probably fall). Any voltage that does> not rise up, then look for a short circuit for that voltage on> motherboard. If all voltages do rise up, then within a second, each> voltage must achieve more than 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7.>> Information from those quick measurements either make it obvious> which is the suspect or post those numbers here for better analysis.>> Rather than 'buy this and replace that', a best solution is to> first take numbers. Just another reason why a 15 quid meter is a tool> as important as a screwdriver, as complex as an Ipod, and the> hands-down quickest answer of your question and to identify where to> start looking for a solution.>> Nice pictures. But visual inspection almost never identifies a> failure. Without that meter (your only useful eyes), then replace> possibly good parts until maybe something is fixed. It is called> shotgunning. Without that meter, you are essentially blind.>> Had you been recording numbers and message in the BSOD, or reviewed> information in the system (event) logs, then a suspect might have been> more quickly identified. Too late now.>> A simple rule for power supplies: if manufacturer does not provide a> comprehensive list of numerical specs, well, this is how supplies> missing essential functions are dumped in a market of electrically> naive computer assemblers. A power supply must contain a long list of> functions that were required even 30 years ago. But many supplies sell> for less (and for higher profits) by forgetting to include many> essential functions. Then some assmbler says "computer powers on;> therefore it must be fine". It's not. But the naive may need other> more expensive solutions (such has a UPS) to solve what would not exist> if using a properly constructed supply. Don't buy a power supply only> on price and watts.>> p.mc wrote:>> As I wrote in my first post, I powered the MOBO with its 21 pin supply,and>> also the CPU and tower fans were connected to the MOBO, but on pressingthe>> power button the fans didn't kick in.>>>> I'd be over the moon if the power supply was the culprit, as you said the>> unit may not be fully functional.>> I'm tempted to buy a new P.Supply unit but knowing my luck it'll be the>> MOBO... :-)(>>>> I do have some mains testers that will show a 12v supply, but when I>> blunderingly tried poking the 2 terminals into any of the connections ofthe>> HDD feeds and others (Whilst the board was powered) I only got acontinuity>> light but as I said I'm no expert and probably not using them properly!!>
w_tom
required.
Power switch tells power supply controller (on motherboard) to turn
on power. Power supply controller needs that switch connection and
sufficient voltage on the purple wire to respond. Power supply
controller uses green wire to order power supply on. First two wire
voltages checked are purple wire (before switch is pressed) and green
wire (before and when switch is pressed). With proper voltages, both
switch and power supply controller were confirmed - and without
disconnecting any wires. This paragraph simply summarizes why purple
and green wires are measured in that previous post. All that
confirmation in two quick measurements.
Purple wire is power for power supply controller. Red, orange, and
yellow wires are power for rest of motherboard. If power supply
controller is telling power supply to turn on (green wire), then red,
orange, and yellow wires will provide power. Power supply controller
is told when power supply is OK via gray wire.
You need not measure power at disk drive. Those same voltages are
measured in that 20 pin connector between power supply and motherboard.
Black wire is common (or negative side of battery). Switch meter
selector to DC volts. Connect black meter probe to any black wire
contact inside the 20 pin nylon connector or connect black meter probe
to computer chassis. Then touch red meter probe to each voltage
(purple, green, gray, orange, yellow, and red wires) to get a voltage
number.
No reason to measure voltages on disk drive connector. Those same
red and yellow wires are also the red and yellow wires that connect
power supply directly to motherboard.
What I believe: power supply controller (green wire) is not telling
power supply to power on. If true, then one simple measurement where
power supply switch connects to motherboard would provide a final
puzzle piece. But first, let's see the numbers.
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/conns/connPSU.html are
pinouts of the 20 pin nylon connector between power supply and
motherboard. Purple wire is often called +5VSB or Five volt standby
power. Gray wire is often called Power OK. Green wire is often called
PowerOn (with word overlined), !PowerOn, or PowerOn#. Each means power
turns on when voltage goes to less than 0.8 volts.
In each case, just any number is not sufficient. Voltages must
exceed minimum values. Lights cannot report that. Testing a power
supply removed from a system often will not detect a lower voltage that
only occurs when connected to motherboard.
p.mc wrote:
> **(Is this what you were refering to)**
> http://www.powercenta.co.uk/storefrontprofiles/processfeed.aspx?sfid=79410&i=198797736&mpid=4033&dfid=1
>
> If so I'll buy the tester for future problems. As I said earlier I did test
> for continuity across the power switch with my voltage testers which was
> easy enough, but also they measure between12v and 600v and to be honest I
> didn't know what pins to test between (20 pin mains) to determine if there
> was a supply for the MOBO and peripherals.
> ...
databaseben
1) if you dont have any training with electronics
and the equipment. So you can seriously hurt yourself
by electricity.
2) your mobo was designed prior to 2001
and outdated. Neither your mobo and p.s.
can handle new devices like dvd's, etc....
you might succeed with simply buying
a new p.s. if that is the problem. but
it will likely overload your old mobo
and you will find yourself in the same pickle.
of course, you can do as you wish. But don't
beleive yourself to be compentant with
diagnosing equipment, especially out dated
and ready for the dumpster electronics.
I have reason to beleive that if you were
then you would obtain the schematics for
the mobo and for the p.s., have experience
with multimeters and o-scopes, solder, soldering
irons, etc....
do yourself a favor and save time, money and possibly your own life by
getting a cheaply priced pc, that is
more powerful than your old 500 mhz pc.
good luck....
"p.mc" <p...@mc.com> wrote in message
news:O0eccNCM...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
databaseben
end. And if you compare the specifications
to what you have now, you will see that it
is much more powerful.
Your current cpu is rated at 500 mhz, that
is if it is not actually a 250mhz that has a clock doubler.
However, the new one that is on the low end
of the market is over 3 ghz. (yours is .5 ghz)
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1221657&sku=BTO%20970811
"databaseben" <datab...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:%233By3sC...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
w_tom
> i don't think thats a good idea because:
1) Anything dangerous in a power supply is inside a box so that human
cannot touch it. Only precaution (as demonstrated by voltage on purple
wire) is to pull AC mains power cord before connecting or disconnecting
components inside a computer.
2) Power supply will not and cannot overload motherboard. That is even
known to electronic project hobbyists.
3) Those with basic computer experience know schematics are not
available for motherboards.
4) If your 2001 motherboard is ready for the dumpster, then why am I
still using early 1990 computer on the internet (not all internet
functions, but even they work just fine)?
Take some measurements. Know what is and is not working. And finish
having learned something useful for the future. Too many computer
experts even fear the meter - even believe myths that a power supply
can "overload your old mobo".
Shenan Stanley
Want to see the whole thing?
p.mc wrote:
> I was hoping Ian would reply to confirm whether that was the way to
> test a PS, maybe he'll reply tomorrow. As you said I do want to
> make sure that the PS is 100% faulty, and also you were right I
> didn't mention I had the 2 pin power switch connected to the board,
> I did test the switch with my mains testers and it was working.
<snip>
I hate to point this out, but...
There has been more talk on this than I would have ever given to even a new
system - given the component mostly being talked about ranges from $33-$120
on a bad day. =)
Not to mention you could go get one at a local 'big name' store - bring it
home, plug it in for 30 seconds to see if the thing powers up - if it
does... You're good to go.. If it doesn't - return the thing and be out no
more than the trip and time.
Speaking from a time is money point of view - the time invested in this has
greatly exceeded the cost of any power supply you would have gotten. And
with systems that offer 1.8GHz with 512MB memory/100GB hard disk drives
going for well under $400 with a 15 month warranty (less than $300 after
rebates) -- I think you might be putting way too much time into a dead
horse. ;=)
databaseben
foolishness doesn't impress
me.
And if the o.p.
gets hurt, then her survivors
as well as the authorities
will come after all the persons
involved...
"Leythos" <vo...@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.20070e9cd...@adfree.Usenet.com...
> In article <#3By3sCM...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
> datab...@discussions.microsoft.com says...
>> i don't think thats a good idea because:
>>
>> 1) if you dont have any training with electronics
>> and the equipment. So you can seriously hurt yourself
>> by electricity.
>
> Yes, but most power in the computer, that you can reach, is 12v or less,
> and unless you're overly sensitive, there is little chance to hurt
> yourself. You would have to be playing with an older power switch that
> actually switched the 120V line, and that not been used for a LONG time.
>
>> 2) your mobo was designed prior to 2001
>> and outdated. Neither your mobo and p.s.
>> can handle new devices like dvd's, etc....
>
> You don't know that, I have several P1's and P2's that work just fine
> with the new DVD readers.
>
>> you might succeed with simply buying
>> a new p.s. if that is the problem. but
>> it will likely overload your old mobo
>> and you will find yourself in the same pickle.
>
> You can't overload the motherboard.
>
> [snip]
>
>> do yourself a favor and save time, money and possibly your own life by
>> getting a cheaply priced pc, that is
>> more powerful than your old 500 mhz pc.
>
> As it appears to be a bad CAP (swelling) problem, I agree, Dell has
> several under $400 that would work well.
>
> --
>
> spam9...@rrohio.com
> remove 999 in order to email me
Shenan Stanley
> databaseben wrote:
>> i don't think thats a good idea because:
>> ...
>
> 1) Anything dangerous in a power supply is inside a box so that
> human cannot touch it. Only precaution (as demonstrated by voltage
> on purple wire) is to pull AC mains power cord before connecting or
> disconnecting components inside a computer.
Humans make mistakes - it's part of being human.
> 2) Power supply will not and cannot overload motherboard. That is
> even known to electronic project hobbyists.
Okay. Probably true.
> 3) Those with basic computer experience know schematics are not
> available for motherboards.
Most.. Most...
> 4) If your 2001 motherboard is ready for the dumpster, then why am I
> still using early 1990 computer on the internet (not all internet
> functions, but even they work just fine)?
Because you are stubborn and are happy with whatever you have or because you
don't have the money to upgrade.
No one said it wouldn't work - there is a time vs. money factor in anything.
I can spend 2 weeks getting a $35 part to work or I can replace it in 30
minutes (if I have a long drive to get the part.)
> Take some measurements. Know what is and is not working. And
> finish having learned something useful for the future. Too many
> computer experts even fear the meter - even believe myths that a
> power supply can "overload your old mobo".
If you are not an electrician and don't strive to be an electrician or
electrical hobbyist - then there is no point in learning to be one. While I
am the first to say, "You'll never learn any younger" and "If you don't try,
you'll never know" and "Teach a man to fish..." - there are some things you
just have to weigh the benefits on.
$35 part you could get at a big name store and return if it turned out not
to resolve your problem versus all the testing and jazz that does the same
thing as buying the $35 working part and plugging it in -- tells you whether
the power supply is the problem or not.
Each their own... If the OP enjoys testing and fiddling with such things -
fantastic - go on. However - there are other options - faster and possibly
less expensive in the long run. Presenting those options is a valid point -
just as presenting the testing options is a valid point.
databaseben
you don't know how much i know
nor do i care how much you know.
the point is, you should know better
than to encourage or manipulate anyone who is not
properly trained, to do what we are able
to.
unless you or any other respondant has
direct oversight of the o.p and the equipment,
don't think that there cannot be any consequences
from the ill faded advices being provided...
THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER DISCUSSION
ON THIS MATTER FROM ME.
"Leythos" <vo...@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.20071375d...@adfree.Usenet.com...
> In article <ORxfk5CM...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl>,
> datab...@discussions.microsoft.com says...
>> unfortunately, your
>> foolishness doesn't impress
>> me.
>>
>> And if the o.p.
>> gets hurt, then her survivors
>> as well as the authorities
>> will come after all the persons
>> involved...
>
> My guess would be that you've not worked inside any computers for a very
> long time, if ever, or you would not have made the comments above.
>
> In the last 10 years, and I've been doing this since the 70's, I've not
> seen a single workstation that has any high-voltage power that the user
> can be exposed to, outside the power supply case. On a couple servers,
> years ago, I found a power switch that had 120v on it, but even that was
> a bad design replaced the next model.
>
> As the OP has already stated, swelling cap's, it's a done deal - new
> motherboard or a new computer.
w_tom
> $35 part you could get at a big name store and return if it turned out not
> to resolve your problem versus all the testing and jazz that does the same
> thing as buying the $35 working part and plugging it in -- tells you whether
> the power supply is the problem or not.
If you are paying $35 for the power supply, well, there is part of
the problem right there. Many know so little about electricity as to
confuse simple hobbyist knowledge with being a licensed electrician.
Much about electricity is common knowledge. One fact that any computer
assemble should know. To sell a power supply for $35, the manufacturer
'forgets' to include necessary functions. But then they are not
selling to informed customers. Informed customers also want to see a
long, numeric spec sheet that says the power supply does contain these
functions.
Instead those who also fear to use a meter and who shotgun, also buy
power supplies only on watts and dollars. Then they need more
equipment (ie UPS) to fix what was missing inside that power supply.
The power supply is inside a box sealed with screws and warning
labels. Yes, even the sky could fall as Chicken Little proclaimed.
But a power supply is not dangerous. Many do not first learn
technology before hyping fears and recommendations. Many even fear a
six quid meter - but would spend only $35 (full retail) on a power
supply. Somehow that is called 'smarter'.
Shenan Stanley
$35 to test - if it works - you have found the problem. Return it and get a
$120 coolermaster power supply after that if you wish.
I don't know about you - but I get paid more than $35/hour net.
Not everyone makes that much - that's a given - which would make it even
more logical to spend as little time fiddling with it and more time doing
something pproductive to make money off of.
This problem has been going on for almost 2 days. That's a lot more than
even the most expensive power supply you could buy for a normal home
computer system (ATX). Cut out all you want, recommend all you want - I
argued nothing electrical with you - just common sense.
Kathea Banshou
"p.mc" wrote:
> Hi Ben
>
> Don't know what happened to the earlieir post so hopefully this one is
> clearer.
> I had a look at a new PSU
>
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=003&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=130063996276&rd=1&rd=1
>
> But it was advertised as having a 20 & 24 pin main connector, so I emailed
> the seller to see if it would fit onto my 20 pin connection considering the
> components either side of it.
>
> http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/20pinconnector.jpg
>
> Hopefully this will do the job. Thanks to all repliers.
<snip>
In answer to your quesion, it depends. :) Most 20/24 pin connectors I've
seen are separatable. That is, they either consist of two connections that
be attached to a 24 pin connection and singly attached to a 20 pin connection
or they can be broken apart to do the same. While I've not seen an
advertised 20/24 pin that is fixed, I'd not be surprised if it exists despite
being rather useless. If they are not detachable, I'd be very surprised if
your MoBo configuration would be able to use this PS.
However, I wouldn't purchase this power supply. As stated quite eloquently
by another poster, for proper performance a power supply needs more than a
certain number of watts and/or connectors. The PS should supply consistent
power and, as another poster said, include features that probably are not
included if not advertised.
McSpreader
31g2000cwt.googlegroups.com:
> ... each voltage must achieve more than 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7.
Wrong, wrong, wrong!
Just for the record: In the ATX PSU spec from Intel ATX Design Guide*
you'll find the minimum values for the 3.3V, 5V and 12V supplies are
quoted as 3.14V, 4.75V and 11.4v, respectively.
*Section 3.2.1 of <www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_
2_public_br2.pdf>
w_tom still quotes these incorrect values for reasons he can't/won't
explain or back up with facts and references.
Uncle Grumpy
databaseben wrote:
> THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER DISCUSSION
> ON THIS MATTER FROM ME.
I didn't think it would be so easy to get you to shut the f*** up!
Brian K
good KB. You might want to do a search in the KB for "Ground Fault"
without the quotes. Sometimes you can eliminate a lot of cross posting
if you go to the source Asus:
http://support.asus.com/default.aspx?SLanguage=en-us
--
________
To email me, Edit "blog" from my email address.
Brian M. Kochera
"Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"
View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951
On 1/3/2007 12:06 PM p.mc wrote:
> ( I xposted to this and other groups but misspelled customize so this is an
> individual post to here)
p.mc
"Shenan Stanley" <newsh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:OSBXD6CM...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
To be honest you may be right, but this is not just about saving a few bob
now, I am genuinely interested in the fault finding aspect.
--
Regards
p.mc
>
>
p.mc
--
Regards
p.mc
"Kathea Banshou" <Kathea...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:5D3623EB-8A00-4D55...@microsoft.com...
Wow! this is getting hard. I did say I chose it on price and wattage because
I haven't a clue, and I'm glad you have put me off it, but it would have
been even better if you could have given me an alternative.
Never mind thanks.
p.mc
"databaseben" <datab...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:%233By3sC...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>i don't think thats a good idea because:
>
> 1) if you dont have any training with electronics
> and the equipment. So you can seriously hurt yourself
> by electricity.
>
> 2) your mobo was designed prior to 2001
> and outdated. Neither your mobo and p.s.
> can handle new devices like dvd's, etc....
**Not true**
>
> you might succeed with simply buying
> a new p.s. if that is the problem. but
> it will likely overload your old mobo
> and you will find yourself in the same pickle.
**I wish someone could say, here you go this is what is needed, because I
would blindly buy a PS as long as it has the right connectors, but
unfortunately I'm getting told it's not right but no explanation why it
would overload my MOBO. So until then I suppose I'll always be naive.**
>
> of course, you can do as you wish. But don't
> beleive yourself to be compentant with
> diagnosing equipment, especially out dated
> and ready for the dumpster electronics.
** Don't sell yourself short it's not rocket science, and if I'm prepared
for someone to tell me to shove a couple of probes into a non lethal
connector so I can ascertain whether something is working or not then I see
no problem with that.**
>
> I have reason to beleive that if you were
> then you would obtain the schematics for
> the mobo and for the p.s., have experience
> with multimeters and o-scopes, solder, soldering
> irons, etc....
>
> do yourself a favor and save time, money and possibly your own life by
> getting a cheaply priced pc, that is
> more powerful than your old 500 mhz pc.
>
> good luck....
**1.4mhz**
p.mc
> the following is a new pc on the low
> end. And if you compare the specifications
> to what you have now, you will see that it
> is much more powerful.
>
> Your current cpu is rated at 500 mhz, that
> is if it is not actually a 250mhz that has a clock doubler.
>
> However, the new one that is on the low end
> of the market is over 3 ghz. (yours is .5 ghz)
>
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1221657&sku=BTO%20970811
>
>
**I paid £1200 for this machine 10 years ago when I first got it, it was
classed as a top end gamer PC at the time and the CPU is 1.4ghz. I wrote
1.4mhz in an earlier post my mistake, but to be honest ben I wouldn't buy
one that cheap, my graphics and sound card cost more than that..:-)) **
--
Regards
p.mc
p.mc
With respect....If this has gone on too long for you then I suggest you
ignore the thread and not post, I see your point, but to be honest I'd like
to know how to use a multimeter and fault find for future reference. What
people are losing sight of here is, I didn't know whether the MOBO or the PS
had failed, it turns out that it could be one or the other, but for the sake
of a Fiver and a lesson from someone on how to test the PS, it's not a bad
price to pay unless I get killed poking around the MOBO, which we've already
established that, that is an improbability. So logic tells you to start from
the cheapest option if you don't mind learning something in the process.
--
Regards
p.mc
"Shenan Stanley" <newsh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:utqes2D...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
McSpreader
@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl:
> I wish someone could say, here you go this is what is needed
As Leythos spotted, your motherboard is probably faulty: note the
bulging electrolytic capacitors evident in your second photo. If it
hasn't already failed, it will soon. See here for details of the
symptoms and causes:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague>
In my experience, repair of a motherboard in this state is rarely
successful.
The PSU could also be faulty and needs to be tested but (obviously)
not against a very suspect motherboard.
Based on your earlier posts, a DIY repair of the PC may be beyond
your current skills. In the UK, a professional repairer's fee would
be around half the price of an entry-level replacement base unit.
How do the economics of those alternatives compare where you're
located?
Shenan Stanley
> Hi Shenan
>
> With respect....If this has gone on too long for you then I suggest
> you ignore the thread and not post, I see your point, but to be
> honest I'd like to know how to use a multimeter and fault find for
> future reference. What people are losing sight of here is, I didn't
> know whether the MOBO or the PS had failed, it turns out that it
> could be one or the other, but for the sake of a Fiver and a lesson
> from someone on how to test the PS, it's not a bad price to pay
> unless I get killed poking around the MOBO, which we've already
> established that, that is an improbability. So logic tells you to
> start from the cheapest option if you don't mind learning something
> in the process.
As I stated in a previous post:
Each their own... If the OP enjoys testing and fiddling with such things -
fantastic - go on. However - there are other options - faster and possibly
less expensive in the long run. Presenting those options is a valid point -
just as presenting the testing options is a valid point.
I was just presenting options. My argument is not with you wishing to do
the testing.
I feel the motherboard is your problem.
I have seen the bulging capacitors myself.
In fact - Dell had to replace 45 motherboards for me last year due to this
exact issue.
If you enjoy fiddling - fiddle away. ;-)
teldave
I often have to repair PC's as part of my business and so take the time
I spend fixing as part of the cost of the repair.
I always have spare power supplies and find this is the best way to
test. A PSU can be faulty but test OK with the meter, load having a big
part to play. (they are cheap to keep as a spare IMHO)
Some way back you say you keep your MB "hovered" and clean. You should
know that a hover is charged with static and could blow your MB easily,
I'm amazed the MB lasted so long. Sticking meter probes in to any hole
is living life in the danger zone.
There are canned cleaners to blow the dust away and I use a horse hair
bush for the rest.. An anti-static mat also helps.
Cleaning for me means power cord in but power off, equalise yourself
electrically, tools and yourself by touching the metal case. This
discharges static through earth.or better still use an anti-static
strap. One of the early courses I did the tutor failed anyone working
on a computer or parts without a static strap on. I get a lot of work
to repair machines because people have dived in and blown things up or
worst still caused a damged chip that let the computer run but produces
some really strange fault.
For me in the workshop it"s better after proving the MB faulty is to
just buy a MB, processor and memory kit and put it all together. (Kit
meaning parts bought together to be compatable with each other)
You may have to do a repair install of the OS and activate windows
again to finish the job.
Good luck
w_tom
> To be honest you may be right, but this is not just about saving a few bob
> now, I am genuinely interested in the fault finding aspect.
An English teacher once promoted a myth that 'Paul was Dead' - citing
Abbey Road cover as proof. She did not learn the relationship between
knowledge and 'why'. She just somehow knew because Paul had no shoes.
Such people are easily deceived.
If one is a cost controller, then one is only concerned with making
it work ASAP. Therefore those who never learned 'why' also could not
hear every engineer saying, "Don't launch". Engineers were not even
allowed to vote when they launched Challenger anyway. To not ask why
should have been called criminally negligent manslaughter. But many of
us never learn why failures are so easily avoided. We instead know
rather than first ask 'why'.
We learn 'why' - and this is most important - to become powerful
problem solvers. Those who don't learn how to ask 'why' are good
assembly line workers or cannon fodder for the front line. Those who
solve problems by learning 'why' innovate - advance mankind. It starts
by learning the little things - even a 3.5 digit multimeter and how to
identify a defective power supply in but a minute.
The only reason for so many posts? So many never even learned how to
use a 3.5 digit meter - instead use 'shotgunning' rather than first ask
'why'. Learning how to ask 'why' is not trivial. But again, that is
why the military wants everyone graduated as an engineer. Philosophy
of that education teaches the power of and ow to ask 'why'. So many
others only shotgun. "I feel Saddam must have WMDs, therefore he has
WMDs." A classic example of what happens when not learning how to ask
'why'. Learning by asking 'why' creates a powerful problem solver.
Anyone can shotgun. But a good problem solver is difficult to find.
w_tom
> Wow! this is getting hard. I did say I chose it on price and wattage because
> I haven't a clue, and I'm glad you have put me off it, but it would have
> been even better if you could have given me an alternative.
Just providing a numerical specification sheet is a major difference
between a supply dumped in the market for higher profits verses one
designed to do what is required. Below is an abridged list that all
power supplies must accomplish and that should be defined in that
numerical specification sheet:
> Specification compliance: ATX 2.03 & ATX12V v1.1
> Acoustics noise 25.8dBA typical at 70w, 30cm
> Short circuit protection on all outputs
> Over voltage protection
> Over power protection
> 100% hi-pot test
> PFC harmonics compliance: EN61000-3-2 + A1 + A2
> EMI/RFI compliance: CE, CISPR22 & FCC part 15 class B
> Safety compliance: VDE, TUV, D, N, S, Fi, UL, C-UL & CB
> Hold up time, full load: 16ms. typical
> Efficiency; 100-120VAC and full range: >65%
> Dielectric withstand, input to frame/ground: 1800VAC, 1sec.
> Dielectric withstand, input to output: 1800VAC, 1sec.
> MTBF, full load @ 25°C amb.: >100k hrs
Power supplies sold to computer assembler without electrical
knowledge are often missing such functions - often at fully retail
prices well below $60. $60 does not say the supply is good.
Appreciate the logic. Well below $60 means it is selling for a loss or
is missing essential functions - especially if numerical specifications
are not provided.
databaseben
more success finding a powersupply
like the one you had, eg 250W.
because of the ever evolving technology,
hardware connections are redesigned to
avoid the mixing and matching affect.
the p.s. you acquired can likely be modified
to accomadate your old motherboard (mobo).
but i have a distinct feeling that your old mobo
won't last very much longer. Further, it
cannot accomadate todays technology, eg
software and peripherials.
an analogie that may help see this
with a different aspect would be like
a heart transplant. You might can figure
out why it would not be a good idea
transferring a heart of a 20 year vigourous
male into an 80 year old one.
I think you are a bit of a computer savvy
and instead of buying a multimeter and
tinkering with the old mobo your better
off simply ascertaining newer components.
You can save some money by purchasing
the mobo w/cpu as a bundle, ram and the p.s.,
and a cpu fan.
you already have the cabinet and fans and
a dvd device and hopefully you have
a retail version of windowsxp too...
I am sure that you would be better off
building your pc, rather than buying a
multimeter for a one time use, only to
discover that
1) the old components
are a waste of time and money to maintain,
2) software and devices are no longer
available for older mobo's and
3) buying a multimeter for use this one
time wasn't a good idea (as i think i read in a prior posting somewhere in
this abyss)....
since this is an abyss of a thread
create a new post/thread if you
encounter any problems. my guess
is that you have received enough
information from "everywhere" that
you have a reasonable idea which way
to go......
"Kathea Banshou" <Kathea...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:5D3623EB-8A00-4D55...@microsoft.com...
>
>
databaseben
a response to me herein.
i'm unflagging this thread/abyss
but i do hope to hear from you
again, especially with how much
more fun you are having with your
pc - newer one hopefully.
"Kathea Banshou" <Kathea...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:5D3623EB-8A00-4D55...@microsoft.com...
>
>
p.mc
I suppose I have been lucky getting ten years from the machine, I do believe
the regular cleaning must have attributed to its longevity, I did used to
use release any static by grounding myself and a cheap paintbrush and soft
toothbrush as tools, suppose like oiling the wheels of my engine :-)
Still I haven't had time to get a multimeter, but I will soon, I've got my
brother visiting today for a long weekend so it might have to wait till the
next weekend.
Thanks for the advice, It's all being put to good use. Knowledge is a
wonderful thing, especially if someone gives it to you for free..."Many
thanks."
--
Regards
p.mc
"teldave" <tel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168027518.7...@i15g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
p.mc
I'd like to thank you for your advice and comments, we've had some ups and
downs but for most of it I'm a lot more wiser and knowledgeable for it
thanks to your time and free advice. I've said it before and I'll say it
again, "Aren't newsgroups a wonderful thing" I started out as many do
knowing nothing about how a PC runs, form the simplest questions as "how do
I change my display size on my screen" to "add hardware and reformat...etc
etc" and all without the intervention of a night... college or university, I
now know and have learnt all that from the humble NG's.
And it's all down to ordinary people, whether it be the bank manager asking
the housewife how long to boil an egg, to the housewife asking how does one
go about getting a mortgage, both valid information, one being no more valid
than the other, other than the latter having more input to be qualified to
reply :-))
If a 5 year old can recite all the states in America you may think he/she
may be a genius in the making, and on the other hand if another child can
systematically recite 26 letters in order (abc) or 50 numbers then it's not
so impressive, ("it's the same thing.") I believe the majority learn the
latter as standard, but because only the few would be learnt the first, we
assume a cleverer mind, but his/her older brother may need to know that
information for a school test one day and gladly share it, so it was useful
after all. :-)
So I'm still going to buy a 3.5 digit multimeter and perform the tests
provided because that's another small skill I'll have learnt even though the
PS may still give a good reading or it may but in a minute show a total
failure, but most of all it's a useful tool even for the simplest of jobs,
and after all's said and done you'll all probably want to strangle me!!...
Because even though I've had the machine for approx ten years without any of
the major pre installed hardware fail,(with the exception of a few DVD/RW
and upgrading to more and bigger HDD's)
I do have a laptop too, and at this point in time I'm on another machine to
which I've added my 300gb storage HDD. In all honesty my problem machine
will be retired to the kids to play games and study on, but that doesn't
stop me from wanting to learn how to fault find because that's another
string to my bow as I said I started out knowing nothing about how a PC
works or gardening/building/plumbing/local government/pet bird care/ how to
boil an egg, and I've learnt all this thanks to the wonderful people who
share knowledge through NG's.
And here's the killer...I do have £2000 for the next generation
machine...Hopefully in another ten years you'll still be helping me keep it
in tip top condition and I may be useful to someone else for the knowledge
I've been taught.
Apologies to posters who may have thought it was too much time wasted on
the subject.
Watch this space ;-))
--
Regards
p.mc
>> --
>>
>> Regards
>> p.mc
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Ian
> Speaking from a time is money point of view - the time invested in this has
> greatly exceeded the cost of any power supply you would have gotten. And
> with systems that offer 1.8GHz with 512MB memory/100GB hard disk drives
> going for well under $400 with a 15 month warranty (less than $300 after
> rebates) -- I think you might be putting way too much time into a dead
> horse. ;=)
What you say is true in a strictly hard-cash sense, and I constantly have to
remind myself that more than a couple of hours spent on a basic system-unit
is probably time wasted.
However, there are hidden costs in replacing the unit, greatest of which is
that the software -including the OS- cannot be transferred, but will have to
be reinstalled, and then painstakingly reconfigured to work properly, right
from the ground up. Where there's specialist software on the computer, this
might take days of work, rather than hours. When these additional costs of a
new computer are taken into account, the repair-option suddenly looks very
attractive.
This issue does seem to be a fundamental one with Windows; from my
admittedly limited experience, Linux doesn't suffer from this the same
upgrade-problems, you can generally transfer a Linux distro in-toto from one
computer to another.
Ian
it is the case that I have to plug the PSU into the mains, it's simple a
matter of the LED on the DVD drive coming on or the HDD spinning to confirm
the PSU works?** "
The LED is run from the "Standby +5" line, which is a small separate
convertor in the PSU box. This line serves to power a small logic-circuit on
the mobo that detects the button-press, and in response grounds the PowerOn
line.
You have to power the PSU to test it (and so take the usual electronics
test-bench precautions) - you can ground the green wire first if you like, to
avoid handling wiring whilst on. You're looking for the HD to spin, and for
an in-tolerance voltage on the +5 and +12 lines. The +3.3 line may be a
little off-voltage as it's unloaded.
This isn't an exhasutive test, as it's possible for there to be AC ripple on
the lines (at around 25kHZ, the PSU's operating frequency) even if the
voltage is correct, and this is sometimes the reason computers misbehave. To
check this aspect you need an oscilloscope, but this is not an economic
purchase unless you have other uses for it.
p.mc
news:1167886326.7...@31g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> In but a minute with a 3.5 digit multimeter, trim the list of
> suspects down to only power supply or motherboard, or ..... That mains
> testing light cannot report anything useful because numbers are
> required.
>
> Light says power cord connects to AC mains. Light does not say any
> voltage is sufficient. Only meter numbers can say that. Start by
> measuring voltage on purple wire by pressing meter probes into 20 pin
> nylon connector for purple wire and to any black wire (or touch
> chassis). With computer powered off (and light still illuminated), that
> number must exceed 4.87 (and it probably will).
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/silverlinedigitalmultimeter.jpg
(Tested with these settings and positions on multimeter)
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/PCfulload.jpg
(all connections and peripherals connected and light still illuminated)
****5.7**** PURPLE
Next take the number
> for green wire both before and when power switch is pressed. That
> number should be above 2.0 volts and drop to less than 0.8 volts when
> switch is pressed. What happens here is very informative.
****0.02...both switched and unswitched **** GREEN
>
> Next, the gray wire. It must rise to well above 2.4 volts within
> second of the power switch pressed. I suspect either voltage will not
> move or will rise and then fall.
****0.01**** GREY
>
> Now measure any red, orange and yellow wires when switch is pressed.
> Assuming the green wire voltage did drop, then each voltage here
> should rise up (and then will probably fall). Any voltage that does
> not rise up, then look for a short circuit for that voltage on
> motherboard. If all voltages do rise up, then within a second, each
> voltage must achieve more than 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7.
****0.47*** RED (un/switched - swithched)
****0.30**** ORANGE (un/switched - swithched)
****1.19**** YELLOW (un/switched - swithched)
>
> Information from those quick measurements either make it obvious
> which is the suspect or post those numbers here for better analysis.
>
Regards
p.mc
Andy
>"w_tom" <w_t...@usa.net> wrote in message
>news:1167886326.7...@31g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>> In but a minute with a 3.5 digit multimeter, trim the list of
>> suspects down to only power supply or motherboard, or ..... That mains
>> testing light cannot report anything useful because numbers are
>> required.
>>
>> Light says power cord connects to AC mains. Light does not say any
>> voltage is sufficient. Only meter numbers can say that. Start by
>> measuring voltage on purple wire by pressing meter probes into 20 pin
>> nylon connector for purple wire and to any black wire (or touch
>> chassis). With computer powered off (and light still illuminated), that
>> number must exceed 4.87 (and it probably will).
>
>http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/silverlinedigitalmultimeter.jpg
>(Tested with these settings and positions on multimeter)
>
>http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j238/npilcs/PCfulload.jpg
>(all connections and peripherals connected and light still illuminated)
>
>****5.7**** PURPLE
The Standby voltage is too high. It should be 5 volts +/- 5%. I'm not
sure if it's high enough to have destroyed or cause to malfunction the
power control circuit on the motherboard. I would replace the power
supply.
>
> Next take the number
>> for green wire both before and when power switch is pressed. That
>> number should be above 2.0 volts and drop to less than 0.8 volts when
>> switch is pressed. What happens here is very informative.
>
>****0.02...both switched and unswitched **** GREEN
This signal (PS_ON#) is driven by the motherboard. When it goes low,
which your measurement says it is, the power supply should turn on.
Since the power supply does not go on, either the power supply is
defective or there's a short on one of the power supply outputs.
PS_ON# seems to be stuck low. Other than a defect in the motherboard
power control circuit, the reason for that could be the BIOS is set so
the computer automatically powers up when AC power resumes after a
power loss situation.
Try removing the ATX power connector from the motherboard, and then
measure the green wire again. I would expect it to be high (> 2
volts). If so, disconnect all the power supply power connectors, and
plug the ATX power connector into the motheboard, and measure PS_ON#
again.
p.mc
Results below
>>****0.02...both switched and unswitched **** GREEN
> This signal (PS_ON#) is driven by the motherboard. When it goes low,
> which your measurement says it is, the power supply should turn on.
> Since the power supply does not go on, either the power supply is
> defective or there's a short on one of the power supply outputs.
>
> PS_ON# seems to be stuck low. Other than a defect in the motherboard
> power control circuit, the reason for that could be the BIOS is set so
> the computer automatically powers up when AC power resumes after a
> power loss situation.
>
> Try removing the ATX power connector from the motherboard, and then
> measure the green wire again. I would expect it to be high (> 2
> volts).
****4.67****
If so, disconnect all the power supply power connectors, and
> plug the ATX power connector into the motheboard, and measure PS_ON#
> again.
****0.02****(switched & un/sw)
Do you think the power supply has definitely had it then?
Thanks Andy
--
Regards
p.mc
"Andy" <1@2.3> wrote in message
news:6ovgq2d7tut77el6e...@4ax.com...
Uncle Grumpy
p.mc wrote:
> Do you think the power supply has definitely had it then?
Fer crissakes, pop for a new one and put it in. What'll it cost... $30?
Andy
>Hi Andy
>Results below
>
>>>****0.02...both switched and unswitched **** GREEN
>> This signal (PS_ON#) is driven by the motherboard. When it goes low,
>> which your measurement says it is, the power supply should turn on.
>> Since the power supply does not go on, either the power supply is
>> defective or there's a short on one of the power supply outputs.
>>
>> PS_ON# seems to be stuck low. Other than a defect in the motherboard
>> power control circuit, the reason for that could be the BIOS is set so
>> the computer automatically powers up when AC power resumes after a
>> power loss situation.
>>
>> Try removing the ATX power connector from the motherboard, and then
>> measure the green wire again. I would expect it to be high (> 2
>> volts).
>
>****4.67****
>
>If so, disconnect all the power supply power connectors, and
>> plug the ATX power connector into the motheboard, and measure PS_ON#
>> again.
>
>****0.02****(switched & un/sw)
>
>Do you think the power supply has definitely had it then?
Looks like it. Seems like the motherboard power control circuit might
have problems too.
One last thing you can try is remove the ATX power connector from the
motherboard, and short PS_ON# to ground (one of the black wires) and
see if the power supply turns on.
>
>Thanks Andy
w_tom
> Fer crissakes, pop for a new one and put it in. What'll it cost... $30?
Power supply outputting 5.7 volts on purple wire (when voltage should
never exceed 5.25) means power to power supply controller is defective.
At 5.7 volts, power supply controller cannot be expected to operate
properly.
Green wire voltage constantly less than 0.8 volts means computer
should have been on constantly - never turns off. More curiously
interesting facts. Hopefully that too is a failure inside power
supply.
If purple wire voltage had exceeded 6 volts, then semiconductors of
power supply controller (or other parts of computer) may have been
damaged. If power supply was $30 (only the naive recommend a $30
supply), then necessary circuits to protect motherboard semiconductors
may be 'forgotten'. If the failed supply sold for something more like
$60, then protection might mean an undamaged motherboard.
If purple wire voltage never got above 5.7 volts, then probably no
motherboard damage. However if it was a $30 power supply, then purple
wire voltage may have been excessive and is now limited only to 5.7
volts by that damage.
So that future intermittent failures do not occur, a new power supply
is installed and voltages confirmed with the meter. If purple wire
voltages are 'in spec', then the original failed supply probably
(hopefully) did not do long term motherboard damage.
Embarrassing is that one would recommend a $30 power supply. A full
retail price excessively low typically because essential functions are
missing. One reason why that purple wire voltage was limited only to
5.7 volts? That power supply contains protective functions so often
missing in $30 junk.
Shenan Stanley
<snipped>
> Embarrassing is that one would recommend a $30 power supply. A
> full retail price excessively low typically because essential
> functions are missing. One reason why that purple wire voltage was
> limited only to 5.7 volts?
>
> That power supply contains protective functions so often
> missing in $30 junk.
Embarrassing? To whom?
Reguardless of whether the $30 is 'the best' or whether or not it has
'essential functions' (up for debate - it may be the only essential thing is
that it works - depends on who you are and what this is for, right?)
missing - why should one be 'embarrassed' about offering it up as a
solution? Perhaps they may be lacking by not providing more options - but
embarrassment is a personal reaction - not one you can determine or even
decide that one *should* feel.
I still say - almost two weeks into this - that buying an inexpensive power
supply and installing it would have proven the same results faster and then
you would have a working power supply while waiting on the fully specced and
'full of essential and even extra super-cool functions' power supply came in
from your ordering it online...
However - earlier on - the bulging capacitor theory was presented and there
may be more than one issue with this system...
w_tom
> w_tom wrote:
>> That power supply contains protective functions so often
>> missing in $30 junk.
>
> Embarrassing? To whom?
>
> Reguardless of whether the $30 is 'the best' or whether or not it has
> 'essential functions' (up for debate - it may be the only essential thing is
> that it works - depends on who you are and what this is for, right?)
Shenan will always argue after a previous post described how many
'computer experts' don't even know how electricity works. Shenan knows
shotgunning. He reminds me of a repairmain on a Trident nuclear
submarine who just kept plugging replacement computer boards into the
panel to fix a communication problem. He then declared all six
computer boards defective. He also did not have sufficient knowledge
nor sufficient grasp to realize the slot had destroyed all good
computer boards. Shenan's reasonings are so similar.
Meanwhile, if Shenan had technical grasp, then he knows debate about
missing functions in those cheap power supplies does not exist. He
demonstrates neither technical knowledge nor experience. He just knows
only from shotgunning and some credentials posted after his name - as
if that says he knows how electricity works.
Embarrassing is anyone who somehow knows a $30 power supply is
automatically better. Provided in far less time to shotgun - provided
by that meter - is why the system is failing and why concern for
integrity of other system components exists. 5.7 volts is unacceptable
for purple wire voltage. It is possible that problems could have been
seen and eliminated before the system failed. But again, power of a
multimeter and some basic electrical knowledge.
Power supply is defective - obviously. Question remains about other
hardware. Questions that a shotgunner could never ask without
comprehending numbers. Insufficient knowledge is also why selling $30
power supplies without essential functions is so profitable.
p.mc
title you have probably been a most unhelpful MS-MVP.
Your 1st post:
>See the answer in the other groups...
>I think you have spread it a bit thin with the cross/multi-posting.
>Next time - put it in one place and wait for some hits. heh
*(unhelpful and Slightly sarcastic shall we say. heh)*
---------------------------------------------------------------
2nd:
Shenans <snipped thread>
Want to see the whole thing?
*(unhelpful and trying to drum up support for the attack)*
---------------------------------------------------------------
3rd:
(w_tom said) <snipped>
> 4) If your 2001 motherboard is ready for the dumpster, then why am I
> still using early 1990 computer on the internet (not all internet
> functions, but even they work just fine)?
(Shenan said) <snipped>
>Because you are stubborn and are happy with whatever you have or because
>you don't have the money to upgrade.
>No one said it wouldn't work - there is a time vs. money factor in
>anything. I can spend 2 weeks getting a $35 part to work or I can replace
>it in 30 minutes, if I have a long drive to get the part.
*(Also)* <snipped>
>Each their own... If the OP enjoys testing and fiddling with such things -
>fantastic - go on.
*(A little condescending if I may say, also you agree each to their own, so
maybe you should have left the discussion from this point forward)*
------------------------------------------------------------------
4th:
<snipped>
>I don't know about you - but I get paid more than $35/hour net.
>Not everyone makes that much - that's a given - which would make it even
>more logical to spend as little time fiddling with it and more time doing
>something productive to make money off of.
*(Well I don't mind admitting I don't earn that, but also I'm not going to
lose a profit because I'm fiddling in my own time and my only profit is
learning)*
<snipped>
>This problem has been going on for almost 2 days. That's a lot more than
>even the most expensive power supply you could buy for a normal home
>computer system (ATX). Cut out all you want, recommend all you want - I
>argued nothing electrical with you - just common sense.
*(You don't seem to grasp that this problem as you say has no time limit to
suit your needs, you can simply ignore this thread if it upsets you and you
could
earn your title by helping others, assuming it takes no longer than 48 hours
to fix) * "excuse the pun."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
5th:
<snipped>
>As I stated in a previous post:
>Each their own... If the OP enjoys testing and fiddling with such things -
>fantastic - go on. However - there are other options - faster and possibly
>less expensive in the long run. Presenting those options is a valid
>point -
>just as presenting the testing options is a valid point.
*(with all due respect it is a valid point, but you are mainly
hampering,badgering and dismissing other peoples advice)*
---------------------------------------------------------------------
6th and hopefully final:
<snipped>
>I still say - almost two weeks into this - that buying an inexpensive power
>supply and installing it would have proven the same results faster and then
>you would have a working power supply while waiting on the fully specced
>and 'full of essential and even extra super-cool functions' power supply
>came in from your ordering it online...
*(Still arguing with Tom)*
>However - earlier on - the bulging capacitor theory was presented and there
>may be more than one issue with this system...
*("And there shines a light" ...Although the meter test didn't conclusively
solved the problem, it most certainly told me
the PSU was defective, and Tom taught me something in the process and I
enjoyed the experience.)*
And yes I will install a new PSU and hopefully the MOBO will be unaffected,
if so great, if not then so be it.
Sorry for pointing out your posts, but you may see how I've looked upon
them.
--
Respectfully
p.mc
p.mc
--
Regards
p.mc
"Brian K" <bria...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:459DFAF5...@earthlink.net...
> Asus has a fairly helpful users forum at their USA web site. Also, a good
> KB. You might want to do a search in the KB for "Ground Fault" without
> the quotes. Sometimes you can eliminate a lot of cross posting if you go
> to the source Asus: http://support.asus.com/default.aspx?SLanguage=en-us
>
> --
> ________
> To email me, Edit "blog" from my email address.
> Brian M. Kochera "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"
> View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951
Shenan Stanley
With respect...
You asked on a public newsgroup.
I gave my solution.
My arguments with w_tom have nothing to do with you/your request - and are
my opinion.
I dismissed nothing... I pointed out options.
Options should be given.
This thread - despite what you believe - is not just for you - but for the
millions who might search and read it later.
Therefore - they may not have the same interests as you and may want to do
the $30 replacement, it works, then they go out and get a real nice power
supply. But if they are not presented that option - they may not know they
have it. What's wrong with me presenting the OPTION?
This thread did not upset me in any way.
I merely continued to present my opinions and the alternative...
I meant nothing in a condescending manner.
I just like presenting all sides of a story.
I am glad you enjoyed your experience.
I am glad you learned something.
Good luck with your replacement.
p.mc
Ah! well, the horse has bolted now. I did feel your comments were
condescending, but if you feel they weren't then I apologise.
--
Regards
p.mc
p.mc
Just to let you all know. I got a decent 300w PSU and everything is up and
running, and the MOBO wasn't damaged luckily.
--
Regards
p.mc
"p.mc" <p...@mc.com> wrote in message
news:uJ6J$pcMHH...@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...