Windows 98 and memory limit
Jodie
for Windows 98 SE? I have a system I am trying to upgrade
to 1Gb RAM. My PC hardware recognizes it, but Windows 98
will not load except for in Safe mode. What gives?
Rob
your new RAM is not compatible with the old...... try using
new RAM seperate, then in first slots with old RAM in
later slots.
Windows 98 was "designed" to handle 2 gig of RAM,
this system uses 768meg with no problems...... get
freemeter as a monitoring tool..........
2 gig. (many systems can't handle more than 1.5 gig.)
With over 512 meg you need a [vcache] statement in
System.ini.
Start - Run - Sysedit
System.ini Make sure you do not have two or more [vcache] sections.
[vcache]
MaxFileCache=512000
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q304943
Computer May Reboot Continuously with More Than 1.5 GB of RAM
More than 1 gig RAM - 98 - 98SE - ME and [vcache] in System.ini
http://tinyurl.com/ll6 <-- explains 2 gig limit
Link to Technet article on Windows 98 Architecture - for memory see
"Memory Paging" section of Virtual Machine Manager.
http://www.microsoft.com/TechNet/win98/Reskit/Part5/wrkc26.asp
Performance Tuning - VCache - Swap File - Role Stand-a-lone or Server
[vcache]
MaxFileCache=512000
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q192607
Doc on Vcache
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q253912
"Out of Memory" Error Messages with Large Amounts of RAM
95/98/98SE/ME MinFileCache and MaxFileCache
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q181862
Specifying Amount of RAM Available to Windows Using MaxPhysPage
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q223294
INFO: The Windows 98 PageFile_Call_Async_Manager Service
System.ini
[386enh]
Paging=on
ConservativeSwapfileUsage=1
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q184447
Error Message: Insufficient Memory to Initialize Windows
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q311871
PRB: Blue Screen Appears When You Start Computer with 1 GB or More of RAM
(Note : This specifically applies to systems with Shared Video Memory ONLY!)
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q259184
How to Increase the Memory Capability of Your Computer
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q146912
Reported Memory Does Not Match Amount of Installed Memory
http://www.tiler.com/freemeter/
FreeMeter 9x/NT/2000/ME/XP - FREE!
Excellent utility for real time system specs.
Tip - Right click meter in Systray - Preferences -
Meters - set FREQ columns to 5 sec by double
clicking on each row (omit Drive Space)....
http://www.tiler.com/FreeMeter/description.htm
Description of the meters - click links under "Meter Descriptions"
--
Rob
Supporting Member, Cascade Bicycle Club
P.O. Box 15165 Seattle, WA. 98115-0165
206-522-3222 and 24 hr hotline 206-522-BIKE
http://www.cascade.org
"Jodie" <jte...@tlc-galveston.org> wrote in message news:20f701c243a9$065ce340$9ee62ecf@tkmsftngxa05...
John Sheehy
"Rob" <takem...@softhome.net> wrote:
>2 gig. (many systems can't handle more than 1.5 gig.)
>With over 512 meg you need a [vcache] statement in
>System.ini.
I haven't heard of a single system recognizing and using more than 1.5G.
Where do you get this notion from, that Win98 works with 2G on some
systems?
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Tom
"John Sheehy" <jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:jq1mlugel3n4fh58p...@4ax.com...
> I haven't heard of a single system recognizing and using more than 1.5G.
WIN2K up tp 3gigs and XP will use up to 4gigs
jazz
using the vcache method.(don't know if it actually used the full 2 gig) did
it to see if there would be a significant increase in a 3d benchmark. (there
wasn't after 1gig)
The vcache settings of 512,000 would probably result in a slower running
system. It should be set to something more like 535,822,336 the reason for
this is it needs to be set to kilobytes. 1 kilobyte is equal to 1,048,576
bytes"[2^20]"...512meg would equal 536,870,912 "[512*2^20]" and since the
flaw in win 98 is with 512 and more mem then if you subtract 1 meg you get
the 535,822,336 this would allow the operating system to use up to 511meg
and you apps could access the rest.
"Tom" <ct...@notpossible.com> wrote in message
news:OBSA8UARCHA.616@tkmsftngp10...
Richard G. Harper
1.5gb to run; probably could have gotten it to run on 2gb but I wasn't going
to buy the memory just to prove the point. :-)
But your reasoning on the VCACHE limit is somewhat faulty. All the VCACHE
limit does is to prevent VCACHE from overflowing the available memory
addresses. It has nothing to do with limiting the operating system's use of
memory - in fact, when done correctly, it does the reverse of your
reasoning; that is to say, it limits VCACHE to a maximum amount of memory
use and leaves the rest of memory available to the operating system and thus
to the programs running under it.
--
Richard G. Harper (MVP MPS-D) rgha...@email.com
* PLEASE post all messages and replies to the newsgroup so all may
* benefit from the discussion. Private mail is usually not replied to.
Help US help YOU ... http://www.dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
"jazz" <apr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:evC5BFCRCHA.1468@tkmsftngp11...
Will_O_the_Wisp
"jazz" <apr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:evC5BFCRCHA.1468@tkmsftngp11...
Rob
in the links I provided,,,,,,, this one should help....... the
design was for 2 gig support...... design and reality don't
always meet.........
http://tinyurl.com/ll6 <-- explains 2 gig limit
Link to Technet article on Windows 98 Architecture - for memory see
"Memory Paging" section of Virtual Machine Manager.
--
Rob
Supporting Member, Cascade Bicycle Club
P.O. Box 15165 Seattle, WA. 98115-0165
206-522-3222 and 24 hr hotline 206-522-BIKE
http://www.cascade.org
"John Sheehy" <jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:jq1mlugel3n4fh58p...@4ax.com...
John Sheehy
"Tom" <ct...@notpossible.com> wrote:
We're talking about Win98 systems.
John Sheehy
"jazz" <apr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I have had a 98 system that posted and ran at a full 2gig of ram for 3 days
>using the vcache method.(don't know if it actually used the full 2 gig)
You didn't check the amount of RAM as reported on the system properties
page?
Tom
"John Sheehy" <jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:v2golu4k2cg1ufbkt...@4ax.com...
> >> I haven't heard of a single system recognizing and using more than 1.5G.
> >
> >WIN2K up tp 3gigs and XP will use up to 4gigs
>
> We're talking about Win98 systems.
You didn't specify, so I added that there is that possibility :-).
jazz
Ok my memory is a little rusty and I can't find my reference book at
this moment but .... I believe the hole reason for the vcache limit is
because of the virtual memory manager in windows 98....It uses the hard
drive to store or make up for the lack of physical memory. But the "gotcha"
is in how it does it. The memory is fist indexed by itself. A file is
written to the hardrive (win386.swp). Then the vmm32.vxd( may be wrong on
this file name) looks at running tasks and indexes them in side the .swap
file. After this is done, it guesses at what information is being used and
will need to be used in the near future. It keeps that in memory and writes
the rest of the loaded modules to the harddrive in side the .swp file. now
here is when the problem is; in order for it to move the modules back into
physical memory it needs to index the registers of the physical memory and
the .swap file and store that in a vcache located in the(physical) memory..
The vmm32 system has problems with anything over 512 megs of ram. It will
lose tract of the beginning and constantly index the physical ram thus
making the virtual memory (vcache )swell to the point it actually consumes
all the memory and there is none left for the operating system...now
understanding how this work lets us know that we have to limit the amount of
vcache to just under 512meg..
As to if this will run faster or slower by making it the max size it
capable of ??????? That is a toss up. In short what is going on is that
windows in cleaning the junk out of the faster physical ram and temporarily
storing it on the hard drive to make room for the information it thinks it
will need next. Then when the junk becomes important again it puts it back
into the physical environment. Under normal circumstances windows will only
use the amount of virtual ram as necessary so the size of the swap file will
fluctuate. With this in mind; in theory the more vcache available the more
it can use. if we set it to low the vmm32 will actually close out the data
in memory to make room for what it thinks it needs therefore causing a delay
in the access of ram past the present operation and slowing the computer
down even more... The big question is with that much ram ...will it matter?
sorry for being long winded but it helped me Remember my train of thought
i will forget more than i'll ever know
"Will_O_the_Wisp" <gr...@acres.com> wrote in message
news:ezBL#yFRCHA.3348@tkmsftngp13...
Will_O_the_Wisp
"jazz" <apr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:Ov46AkMRCHA.1648@tkmsftngp09...
jazzz
say. The vcache however in orcder to function properly must interact and
index the virtual memory (all the other memroy for that mater).. This is
where the write sequence goes astray. It continuously loops trying to index
the memory (physical and swap) because it cannot properly acknolege the
excesive amounts of ram. The real fault is in how the virual ram indexes the
physical ram and the physical has to index the virtual while each has to
index itself.
"Will_O_the_Wisp" <gr...@acres.com> wrote in message
news:e0K4enSRCHA.1996@tkmsftngp12...
jazzz
3dmark2001, and some games to view the framerate and performane. (halflife,
castle wolfenstine, maxpain you know the good stuff)
"John Sheehy" <jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:07goluc4167a1hr1s...@4ax.com...
John Sheehy
"jazz" <apr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Ok my memory is a little rusty and I can't find my reference book at
>this moment but .... I believe the hole reason for the vcache limit is
>because of the virtual memory manager in windows 98....It uses the hard
>drive to store or make up for the lack of physical memory.
You're going out on a limb here; vcache has nothing directly to do with
swapfile management. Vcache is always totally contained within RAM.
Vcache is simply file content that is cached in RAM so that it is faster
to access a second time or even more. In Win98, some programs can have
themselves run directly from this file cache, even multiple copies,
saving RAM.
The problem with vcache over 512 MB is that Win98 doesn't really have
enough virtual address space to have more, and still support the virtual
address needs of other system functions; that's why it gives out the
memory shortage messages when vcache is mapped to more than 512 MB of
virtual address space. Virtual address space does *NOT* mean swapfile.
John Sheehy
"jazzz" <apr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>i didn't mean to sound like I got them confused... You are right in what you
>say. The vcache however in orcder to function properly must interact and
>index the virtual memory (all the other memroy for that mater).. This is
>where the write sequence goes astray. It continuously loops trying to index
>the memory (physical and swap) because it cannot properly acknolege the
>excesive amounts of ram. The real fault is in how the virual ram indexes the
>physical ram and the physical has to index the virtual while each has to
>index itself.
You still have something confused. "Virtual memory" and "virtual
address space" do not necessarily have anything to do with the swapfile.
The swapfile is just a container to guarantee more virtual memory than
there is RAM. There can be virtual addresses and virtual memory without
a swapfile.
John Sheehy
"jazzz" <apr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>No I didn't chech the sytem property page I viewed the bios post and used
>3dmark2001, and some games to view the framerate and performane. (halflife,
>castle wolfenstine, maxpain you know the good stuff)
I was talking more along the lines of how much RAM was recognized by
Win98. A further test then would be to actually use it.
jazzz
ram out of some other machines and give it another try.... i was just
interested i pushing a gaming rig over the top when we did it.. maybe i'll
try it again next weekend
"John Sheehy" <jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:8psqlusi7f6kepaju...@4ax.com...
jazz
stepping off a cliff with this..
I don't really know how to say it with out quoting or writing an entire
chapter of how the memory management of windows 98 works..
Basically: anything the computer is doing... The computer needs to know
about it right? If it has 24meg of ram then it needs to know... Now if it
loads something into that ram.. it needs to know where that is too right?.
(other wise it would pull your resume.doc when it needs the level 2 of
mystupid.game....)
lets say there is a computer, (we'll call him uncle bill)..The computer
is a busy person, crunching numbers adding and subtracting and so on so we
can play games or whatever (isn't he so considerate).. "Uncle Bill" was
thinking to himself one night. "Man, this job is hard, and it takes too long
for me to find the stuff I'm going to do next. There has to be a better
way".. Well, he's pretty smart so after thinking about it the computer
decides it needs to hire a secretary.. One that will help organize his work,
remember where he put stuff and help get the material he needs next.
Uncle Bill goes down to H.R. and tells them what this person should be
able to do.. They get his request approved and send a slick character named
"vcache".. This "vcache" goes to work immediately. The first thing he does
is study the computer to see what it's doing. Then he sorts through all the
stuff, organizes it and makes a list of it so he can get to it "Uncle Bill"
when needed and pass it to the memory... This worked like a charm.. In fact
the system "uncle bill" and "vcache" worked out was so good, the users
started asking them to do more and more work..
This extra work put such a stress on ""vcache". He was having trouble
keeping things in memory. In fact it wasn't keeping things in memory that
was the real problem. He couldn't keep what wasn't needed out, so there
wasn't room for what they did need..."Vcache" called for an office meeting
to discuss this problem and let every one know he was trying his best.
"Uncle bill" being as smart as he is, thought "if I had more memory???or
a warehouse to store this extra clutter then we could become more efficient,
stop over working "vcache". Then he won't mess up the information and
cause me to lock up with an invalid page fault. or something".... so he put
an ad in the paper describing what he needed and this guy responded. His
name was "Virtual Memory".. and did he have a novel idea!.. "Virtual
Memory" thought that he could talk to this "hard drive" guy everyone has
been hearing about, then he could convince him into storing some of the
clutter that "vcache" was having problems with..
After a short conversation the "hard drive" contacted "Uncle Bill" and
explained that he was a cheap form of memory, had plenty of space, was
already in the business of storing things, and would be more than happy to
help out. The one stipulation was he wasn't doing the work "have enough
stuff to do without worrying about that."
"Uncle Bill" went back to "Virtual Memory" and asked him if he would do the
work and set this in motion? After all it was his idea in the first place.
""Virtual Memory" decided what the hell. So he got a hold of "vcache" and
they started to hash out the details. Basically if "Vcache" has too much
stuff to putt into memory, it will ask "virtual memory" to store some of it
temporarily on the hard drive. "virtual memory" says "Hey, If you want me to
take on this reasonability then you will have to let me know where the stuff
in the memory is, so I will be able to retrieve the right stuff and put it
back in to the right place."...
Well "Vcache" thought that was just a good idea.. In fact it would be
best if that went both way. "I will let you know what and where this
information is in memory but you will have to let me know where you store it
on the hard drive.". They tried this system out and it works great!!
"Uncle Bill" was so proud he wanted to do something special about this... He
decide to start a new management team and call it the "memory management"
department. others could join this elite management team but for now we'll
just stick with the stars of this story.
Time went buy and this system adapted well to change. Most people were
still impressed with the way these two "memory managers" work with each
other.. until one day. Times had changed so much that larger amounts of
physical ram were readily available and some one decided to install it. This
brought the total system memory up to 512 mgs!
Now we find out that "vcache" isn't as smart as we once thought he can't
count passed 512m. He actually is a bit of a lunatic too. "Vcache" has
become so enthused with getting the job done he won't stop on his own..What
happened was "Uncle Bill" started up like normal one day..everything was
going fine until "vcache" started passing information to "virtual memory" as
part of the way the memory management has always worked. "Vcache" lost track
count when he was indexing his inventory and memory addresses. instead of
stopping and starting over he would continue to count until he came close to
the end.. his list got so big he had to pass some of it to "Virtual memory"
so he could continue. Everytime he would almost complete the count he would
lose tract and start over again except he would reindexing were the number
left off (starting with the last number but counting everything again). Now
every time this happens, the file would get full and it would be passed off
to "Virtual memory".
Now "virtual memory" see's what is going on and doesn't want to say
anything because he is afraid of losing his job to the fact of the extra
memory... so to seem important he continues to except these list and send
his list back which aggravates the situation even more.. In this situation
when "virtual memory" sends his list to "vcache", she ignores it because the
important thing on her mind is cataloging and indexing memory and resources.
****This in itself, isn't all that bad.. Windows can run without the vcache
being active or being over active (would be a little slower). Here is where
it becomes a mess. The vcache will constantly send updates to it's "where
things are list", When this accurse the Virtual memory (who is afraid of
losing his job) does it strait by the book and appends his copy. Now the
content of the virtual memory has changed so he needs to send the updated
virtual memory list back to the Vcache.. The vcache is still looking for the
end of here stuff and just shelves it adding to the size of here
files...this happens several times before the total size of the vcache has
swollen up so large it consumes all the available system memory.. this is
what causes window to crash so by setting the max file size of the vcache
you can keep it from over stepping it's bounds.....A this point it still is
looking and counting but ounce it reaches the max size she will stop and
look for what is wrong. then work fine for a while and the process will
start again
"John Sheehy" <jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:efpqlugtb8ihusvbh...@4ax.com...
John Sheehy
"jazz" <apr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Basically if "Vcache" has too much
>stuff to putt into memory, it will ask "virtual memory" to store some of it
>temporarily on the hard drive.
I have to leave for work right now so I don't have time to reply to the
rest of the post, but this statement is false. Vcache does not get
swapped out to the hard drive, at least not the classic part of it; the
file cache. The active code it contains may be swapped out, but not as
vcache. At that point it is no longer cached.