Chemicals
Alec Wright
them are unwanted. Let me know if you want any or think any could be
useful to have in the space, here's my inventory, in no particular
order. Most quantities are guesstimates:
* Formic acid, 98% extra pure reagent grade 500ml
* Nitric acid, 40% reagent grade 1.7l
* n-Heptane analytical grade 1.8l
* Na dichromate, ebay grade, 1.6kg
* Ca(OCl)2, reagent grade 250g
* H2SO4, 98% analytical grade, 2.5l
* Potassium ferricyanide, commercial grade, 400g (potentially more
kicking around elsewhere)
* NaOH, commercial grade (maybe a bit damp), 15kg
* Unmarked container of white powder, possibly cocaine or reagent grade
NaHCO3, 2kg
* Benzyl alcohol, reagent grade, 500ml
* Acetic acid, 37% reagent grade, 2.5l
* Very impure glycerol (so bad that it's brown - biodiesel waste), 50l
* H2SO4 reagent grade, 800ml
* Sulfur powder, ebay grade, 200g
* Zinc powder, ebay grade, 400g
* KNO3, ebay grade, 1kg
* Glacial acetic acid, ebay grade, 5l
* Phenolphthalein, lots of little 50ml dropper bottles of solution in
methanol
* NaHCO3, analytical grade, 1kg
* Ferric nitrate, commercial grade, 1.5kg
* NaCl, analytical grade, 1kg
* Urea, fertiliser grade, 4kg
* Diammonium phosphate, fertiliser grade, 400g
* K2SO4, fertiliser grade, 2kg
I also have some lab glassware, can list that on request.
I've got an idea for an interesting project with the ferricyanide, but
that's for another email.
You're probably expecting an explanation regarding why I have all these
chemicals. Unfortunately, I have no good reason to give here.
Steff
> Hai guise, I have a lot of chemicals knocking around at home, most of
> them are unwanted. Let me know if you want any or think any could be
> useful to have in the space, here's my inventory, in no particular
> order. Most quantities are guesstimates:
FWIW, anything the Hackspace doesn't want I'll happily have ;-)
S
Adrian Godwin
cupric chloride, the Phenolphthalein comes in handy. As would a couple
of flasks or beakers and a burette would be fantastic. NaOH is good
for titration if of known strength.
-adrian
Alec Wright
> If we ever get around to changing the ferric chloride etchant to
> cupric chloride, the Phenolphthalein comes in handy. As would a couple
> of flasks or beakers and a burette would be fantastic. NaOH is good
> for titration if of known strength.
>
> -adrian
>
around, and it seems to work fine. I think there are some conical flasks
and beakers in the garage, but no burette. They sell them on rapid
electronics though:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Educational-Products/Science/Laboratory-Equipment/Burettes/122489
and
http://www.rapidonline.com/Educational-Products/Science/Laboratory-Equipment/Straight-bore-burettes-with-PTFE-stopcocks/73144
the latter look to be more corrosion-resistant.
Adrian Godwin
ability to just top up with air and HCl rather than throw the stuff
away and start again every now and then.
Alec Wright
> Yes, FeCl3 works fine but I hate the brown stains, and like the
> ability to just top up with air and HCl rather than throw the stuff
> away and start again every now and then.
>
colourless and doesn't stain.
Adrian Godwin
presumably someone's used it. But I don't know if you can regenerate
it like cupric chloride.
-adrian
On 7/3/11, Alec Wright <ale...@member.fsf.org> wrote:
Russ Garrett
> them are unwanted. Let me know if you want any or think any could be
> useful to have in the space, here's my inventory, in no particular
> order. Most quantities are guesstimates:
I am in favour of all of these chemicals (and more).
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Adam Page
> I also have some lab glassware, can list that on request.
nitrogen?
I'm not sure if standard beakers are suitable.
Adam
Alec Wright
the temperature change (maybe cool them down in the vapour first?)
I think i've seen beakers before made out of a plastic specifically made
for cold stuff.
Katie Sutton
Ask what Chin Chin Labs [1] use if you want to be certain. I seem to
recall they use metal, but they may well know of glass suitable for
nitro, or may have used it in the past.
[1] http://www.chinchinlabs.com
--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org
"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson
Ken Boak
Russ Garrett
> I'd prefer we don't take the strong acids.
Well, that depends how concentrated they are. The acids are probably
the most useful stuff out of that lot, so I think we should look into
a way of storing them safely.
Incidentally we have a big 5l container of conc HCl in the metal cupboard.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Adrian Godwin
> On 4 July 2011 09:09, Adam Page <adam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd prefer we don't take the strong acids.
>
> Well, that depends how concentrated they are. The acids are probably
> the most useful stuff out of that lot, so I think we should look into
> a way of storing them safely.
Yes, anodising would be a very useful technique in the space - it can
provide a good finish for turned & milled items, and the laser will
burn it, so it provides a method of marking or decorating metal that
isn't possible with the laser alone.
I believe this would require sulphuric acid for the anodising process,
Nitric acid and/or Sodium Hydroxide for preparation. It may be
sensible to use some of the additional etch tank baths for processing
- they're not essential for PCB work and provide good control of the
corrosive liquids.
>
> Incidentally we have a big 5l container of conc HCl in the metal cupboard.
>
Oh, is that where it went ? I was looking for that !
-adrian
Adrian Godwin
>
> Why not? It's really not very dangerous as it's not at all easy to turn it
> into dangerous cyanide. Also very handy for photography, incidentally (as a
> print bleach for B&W, or in all sorts of roles in alternative processes).
>
> Lester
>
Maybe keep it in a different cupboard from the acids ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_ferricyanide#Safety
From the rest of that article it does indeed sound both useful and
relatively safe.
-adrian
Russ Garrett
> Oh, is that where it went ? I was looking for that !
Yep, we were using it in a hydrogen generator for the hydrogen powered
engine experiment...
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
tom
On Jul 4, 10:20 am, Russ Garrett <r...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Oh, is that where it went ? I was looking for that !
>
> Yep, we were using it in a hydrogen generator for the hydrogen powered
> engine experiment...
>
> --
> Russ Garrett
Russ Garrett
> did it work?
Yes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKUYvlcFTyY
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
Toby Catlin
Lester Hawksby
I think that Potassium ferricyanide should not be kept at the
hackspace.
cepm...@yahoo.co.uk
Nor do we have means to dispose of it when no longer required.
By all means if there is any member can use it privately then that is
their choice.
I would urge extreme caution in bringing most of it to the space, we
occasionally sail a little close to the wind in respect of H+S generally
but without proper arrangements for storage, use and disposal this lot
could create a serious hazard and further is likely to drop us right in it
with the authorities.
You say you have no good reason to give for having all this stuff... I
would say that this is also true for the space.
Phil
PS
" * Unmarked container of white powder, possibly cocaine or reagent grade
NaHCO3, 2kg " ???? Wot`s that all about?
On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 20:05:47 +0100, Alec Wright <ale...@member.fsf.org>
wrote:
> Hai guise, I have a lot of chemicals knocking around at home, most of
> them are unwanted. Let me know if you want any or think any could beois
Sam Kelly
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/
That's it. We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger dictionary. - Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.
Philippe Bradley
Alec Wright
> Biohacking (part. the biodiesel project) could use the NaOH, urea and
> hexane.
>
>
> --
>
>
> I imagine keeping most of that list onsite could potentially
> constitute a breach of tenancy, let alone elfansafety or common sense.
> Still quite an amazing offer by the OP mind you, even if offering the
> list 'cocaine' without so much as a smiley to qualify it was
> definitely a pretty poor idea, both from the offeror's perspective,
> and from the Hackspace's if it didn't go and report it.
>
seriously that was a joke, I'm pretty sure it's NaHCO3, I was just
anticipating that someone would make a joke about unmarked white powder
so was trying to beat them to it.
> I was wondering what glassware was on offer? Any that's suitable for
> adoption by the biohacking group?
>
>
I think the glassware is just standard borosilicate conical flasks and
beakers. I also have a side-arm flask, which may be of use.
On 5 July 2011 19:52, Sam Kelly <s...@eithin.co.uk> wrote:
> We don't have safe storage for the n-heptane, the benzyl
> alcohol, or that quantity of glacial acetic acid - fumes could
> potentially escape and either gas someone or build up in a
> confined space and explode.
>
>
> Given that this list includes 2.5 other explosive recipes, I'd
> be wary of keeping most of the rest in the space without a
> locked cupboard with proper safety labelling. Iff we can do
> that, it would be fantastic to have the nitric & sulphuric
> acids, the NaOH, the urea, the potassium ferricyanide, and
> about 500ml of glacial acetic acid; if we can't, I don't think
> we ought to accept anything except the phenolphthalein.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Sam Kelly (MChem)
To be honest, I'd say that's probably wise - I wasn't really intending
for most of these to be kept in the space (as you say, health and
safety). Members are welcome to take them off me though.
Alec Wright
> Thanks to Alec for the offer.
>
> I agree with Ken's call for caution and go a bit further.
>
> I'v had a quick look at the wikipedia entrys for some of the chemicals
> on offer.
>
> I think that Potassium ferricyanide should not be kept at the
> hackspace.
The ferricyanide's probably one of the least dangerous of the chemicals
on the list. Nonetheless, I agree that some of them could be difficult
to store/dispose of.
>
> I'd prefer we don't take the strong acids. If people have a good use
> for use them then
> I think they should only be brought to the hackspace if arrangements
> are already in place
> for secure storage with designated keyholders, the MSDS and risk
> assessment
> paperwork is done, it's clear that it's not a problem for the
> insurance and we have
> anything that might be needed like spill kits, eyewash etc in place.
>
> Some risks arn't obvious eg formic acid decomposes to
> carbon monoxide so if someone puts some in a sealed container
> it might go pop or fizz over when opened months later.
>
> It would be fun to do some chemistry at the space but most
> of us should start off with a kid level chemistry set.
>
> The Phenolphthalein (an acid/alkaline indicator) could be handy
> for some basic chemistry experiments.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
6tricky9
On Jul 4, 7:28 am, Ken Boak <ken.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There are a number of oxidising agents, mostly fertilisers, on the list. We
> don't want to attract attention that we might have substances linked with
> explosive production on the premises.
>
> I should proceed with caution
>
explosives, especially nitric and sulphuric acid; formic acid also.
Are we to ban cotton wool from the space because it could be used in
the production of nitrocellulose or guncotton?
Richard
Mark Steward
Simon Howes
Just dont wipe up nitric acid spills with paper towls :)
Ken Boak
Russ Garrett
the last day or so.
I think this thread has somewhat degenerated into the Daily Mail
scenario of people invoking the mythical "health and safety" without
understanding the relevant rules. This is one of my pet hates.
Hackspace is as much about science as anything else, and I believe
that H&S shouldn't unnecessarily get in the way of teaching people new
things, and good science. Chemistry is fun, and properly using these
chemicals is no more dangerous than operating the lathe.
We have a lockable, ventilated metal cabinet which is ideal for
storing chemicals in. I am more than happy to set up a proper COSHH
risk assessment system (something I have had the dubious pleasure of
doing before), and I will keep the keys.
Obviously we don't want the full quantity of a lot of these
substances, but I think the majority of them are good things to keep
in stock.
--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk
6tricky9
On Jul 6, 10:13 am, Mark Steward <markstew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ahh yes, reductio ad absurdum always helps these kinds of discussion.
>
> Some substances will set off alarm bells for police and local agencies,
> including well known fertilisers and those used in synthesis of drugs. If
> it looks like we have a meth lab in the space, that's what they'll think.
> If we store more than a thimbleful of anything suspicious, I suggest we
> justify its presence on the wiki so we have an overview of hazards and a
> record of why they're there.
>
If we all ran our lives on the basis of what the Police "think" rather
than what is our legal right then we really would be living in a
Police State.
Richard
Mark Steward
Steff
> I've spoken to a number of people with strong opinions about this over
> the last day or so.
>
> I think this thread has somewhat degenerated into the Daily Mail
> scenario of people invoking the mythical "health and safety" without
> understanding the relevant rules. This is one of my pet hates.
>
> Hackspace is as much about science as anything else, and I believe
> that H&S shouldn't unnecessarily get in the way of teaching people new
> things, and good science. Chemistry is fun, and properly using these
> chemicals is no more dangerous than operating the lathe.
Agreed, most strongly.
FWIW, my local corner shop has (at least) concentrated acids,
flammable alkanes and NaOH granules on the shelf among the other
useful household maintenance supplies. Such things as fertilisers are
common chemicals (precisely because they are useful as fertilisers)
and usually stored in bulk in sheds and barns. They're not going to
spontaneously do anything terrifying any more than a machine tool or
piece of electronics is, and require much the same fairly elementary
attention to safety that we all apply more or less without thought on
a daily basis. Thanks, above all, for offering to jump through the
necessary hoops to placate the insurers.
S
Tim Hutt
> Perhaps we need a list of "alarm bell" substances.
For explosives it's basically nitric acid, or large amounts (tonnes)
of nitrates. Nitric acid is really nasty; we probably shouldn't store
that. I can't see a problem with anything else though, apart from not
having the space for it.
It's worth noting that making small amounts (up to 100g) of explosives
is not illegal as long as it is for demonstration or experimentation,
and you can make more for theatrical purposes:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1082/regulation/9/made
Steff
> On 6 July 2011 10:56, 6tricky9 <6tri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Perhaps we need a list of "alarm bell" substances.
>
> For explosives it's basically nitric acid, or large amounts (tonnes)
> of nitrates. Nitric acid is really nasty; we probably shouldn't store
> that.
It's only really nasty inasmuch as it nitrates things (cellulose is
the typical inadvertent one) into explosive substances, which may take
those ignorant of that property by surprise*.
Otherwise it just sits in its (marked, dark glass) bottle quite
quietly like any other lab reagent. It's certainly nothing like as
nasty as hydrofluoric acid (used for etching glass / silicon) and if
memory serves, the burns aren't as nasty as those from similarly
concentrated NaOH.
*wipe up spill, rag now partially nitrated and rather inflammable -
though unlikely to be violently explosive unless confined.
S
6tricky9
> > Perhaps we need a list of "alarm bell" substances.
>
> For explosives it's basically nitric acid, or large amounts (tonnes)
> of nitrates. Nitric acid is really nasty; we probably shouldn't store
> that. I can't see a problem with anything else though, apart from not
> having the space for it.
Richard
danny staple
This may be ignorance, but does this mean that the average potato farmer has most of what they need to make significant quantities of explosives?
typed on my phone expect typos...
amx109
raw materials are quite easily obtained. its the intent that defines the action.
i think russ has adequately covered all that needed to be said here
Steff
> This may be ignorance, but does this mean that the average potato farmer has
> most of what they need to make significant quantities of explosives?
Yes. In fact they have _everything_ they need to make vast quantities
of explosives*, albeit probably not to get them to detonate reliably -
most of the larger bombs in Northern Ireland and Afghanistan are
pretty much along these lines. We're OK in London until such time as
the NFU spawns a militant wing though.
S
cepm...@yahoo.co.uk
Ammonium Nitrate + fuel oil (diesel) = ANFO = PIRA`s favourite explosive
for "spectaculars" (Baltic Exchange, South Quay, Bishopsgate etc.)
There is a bit more to it than just that (it needs a primer) but ANFO is
the bulk charge that makes the big bang.
And there should be enough keywords in that lot to have most "Echelon"
type systems flashing lights and ringing bells :-)
Phil
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:58:21 +0100, danny staple <da...@orionrobots.co.uk>
wrote:
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Tim Hutt
> my mother has most of what she needs to make a potent explosive. chappatti
> flour, im told, when combined with a couple of other readily available
> things, makes a big boom when aerosoled.
>
> raw materials are quite easily obtained. its the intent that defines the
> action.
The claim that bombs can easily be made with household ingredients
frequently comes up and I'm pretty sure it is bullshit. The list is
always flour or sugar or diesel or whatever "combined with other
easily available things which we won't mention". But the other part is
the oxidiser, and they aren't exactly household ingredients.
Also flour doesn't need to be combined with anything to make a "big
boom when aerosoled"!
cepm...@yahoo.co.uk
threats to waste much time on us! (Hi guys, you`r doing a fine job...)
Phil
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 20:03:41 +0100, Gavan Fantom <ga...@coolfactor.org>
wrote:
> On 06/07/2011 19:21, cepm...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> I'd be surprised if Hackspace wasn't monitored already, given its nature.
Gavan Fantom
>
> Ammonium Nitrate + fuel oil (diesel) = ANFO = PIRA`s favourite explosive
> for "spectaculars" (Baltic Exchange, South Quay, Bishopsgate etc.)
> There is a bit more to it than just that (it needs a primer) but ANFO is
> the bulk charge that makes the big bang.
>
> And there should be enough keywords in that lot to have most "Echelon"
> type systems flashing lights and ringing bells :-)
I'd be surprised if Hackspace wasn't monitored already, given its
nature. That's not to say we're malicious, but we're a concentration of
the sorts of people who would have the skills to make stuff actually
happen should we decide to turn evil. Oh, yes, and organised as a kind
of anarchy.
--
Gillette - the best a man can forget
cepm...@yahoo.co.uk
For legal reasons I cannot discuss in detail a series of (alleged)large
explosions on various bits of waste land in South East London circa 1982/3
(its all in the past yer honour) but I can assure you that the ingredients
were all bought from groceries, garden centres and hardware stores.
Nothing unusual at all on the list.
The only problems with the mixtures in question were stability and
reliability. The propellant for the 2 inch mortar was never quite fit for
purpose...
Sam Kelly
Sam
Ah - this is a bit different from what was starting to fit in my mind. I was thinking that something between the nitrates in the fertiliser and the starchy potatoes with plenty of cellulose. I never quite understood chemistry like I do computing.
--
Danny Staple
Director, ODM Solutions Ltd
w: http://www.odmsolutions.co.uk
Blog: http://orionrobots.co.uk/blog1-Danny-Staple
Adrian Godwin
If he's a farmer he's got a shotgun anyway.
-adrian
Steff
> Our hypothetical farmer could quite easily use the potato to construct a
> detonator.
Ah, yes. The exploding-bridgetuber design.
S
amx109
Also flour doesn't need to be combined with anything to make a "big
boom when aerosoled"!
danny staple
Tim Hutt
> Beg to differ old chap.
> For legal reasons I cannot discuss in detail a series of (alleged)large
> explosions on various bits of waste land in South East London circa 1982/3
> (its all in the past yer honour) but I can assure you that the ingredients
> were all bought from groceries, garden centres
I wouldn't count nitrates as common household items. Well, perhaps for
hackspace members...!
Dave Ingram
> Almost certainly, fortunately the monitors are usually too busy with
> real threats to waste much time on us! (Hi guys, you`r doing a fine
> job...)
I might have to start doing that in the 'space.
D
Philippe Bradley
the bugs before leaving them in the 'space?
Dave Ingram
> Do you think they had the foresight to put a 'Do Not Hack' sticker on
> the bugs before leaving them in the 'space?
D
cepm...@yahoo.co.uk
<philb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7 July 2011 10:12, Dave Ingram <da...@dmi.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/06/11 20:22, cepm...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> Almost certainly, fortunately the monitors are usually too busy with
>>> real threats to waste much time on us! (Hi guys, you`r doing a fine
>>> job...)
>> Which reminds me of http://xkcd.com/525/
>>
>> I might have to start doing that in the 'space.
cepm...@yahoo.co.uk
On Thu, 07 Jul 2011 10:26:57 +0100, Philippe Bradley
<philb...@gmail.com> wrote: