I wanted to share this with you (writing thingy!).

[Lindar]

Yeah, millionth and first system, but I thought it rocked.

(slightly drunk, forgive my rudeness you cunt)

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/res/585.html

Here's an example. I'm going to post some fancy versions, so keep
watching. I'll probably post again when I've posted again, so watch
out for redundancy issues and RDR departments.

So, yeah, awesome.

View it! Try to write with it.

If somebody can make me a way to type with this (in gedit) I will
award them five BPFKs.
This is a promise!
(DISCLAIMER: The previous statement in no way guarantees anything at
all ever and you should shut up.)

One cookie if you write with it on a tablet, two cookies if you write
with a pen and scan or photograph it!

[Lindar]

Poasted second example.

I realise I posted on jbotcan about this the last time I got drunk, so
this is awesome.
This time I have a Wacom Bamboo (I highly recommend these as they are
the shit for less than 80USD), so I can actually make it look sexy how
it's supposed to be. The second post says "mi'e la .lindar." a bunch
of times, but I do different curvies and extendies in each example.
Remember, you can extend ANY line to make it voiced, so T could be
like:

---
|
|
|
|
|
---

OR!!

----------------
|
|
|
-------

or anything like that... it's an awesome system, really... just
bitchin'. PIP PIP AND ALL THAT!
*makes a spot of tea*

So, I look forward to everybody using this exclusively from now on,
even though that won't happen.

(To all you lysdexics out there, how readable is this to you? I have
been curious about this since I came up with it in 1908 when I first
conquered the Americas in the name of Britafornia.)

HAIL JBOLASNITAN!!

[Lindar]

Okay, I poasted another one cos I forgot to include the bit on how to
use initial I and initial U. Initial I is an overscore and initial U
is an underscore! It's very easy.

So... perfection game start!

(do not bring up criticisms about the diacrit system because I don't
care, that's how it works!)

[Remo Dentato]

Just to say that if lojban will ever have its own writing system, I'll
vote for this.

I think it reflects perfectly the lojbanic duality between formality
and metaphoric thinking.

To me, the grid system is the counterpart of the formal grammar and
the flexibility in writing the single letters (prolongating the one
that fits best) is the counterpart of the metaphoric thinking induced
by tanru (and by zo'e and by the other hundreds of ways we can use to
make lojban a human language).

I guess we would need more people trying to use it to find if there's
anything that is hard to use or potentially unclear and so on.

Too bad we'll never really use it, but I think it's worth of being
fully documented and it would be extremely good if someone would
produce beautiful texts in it.

remo

[Lindar]

It would be lovely to have a medium in which people used this
exclusively. It would hammer out the bugs very quickly!

[Ali Sajid Imami]

Its based on Eileen script. :)
I was working on the very same one. :)
Thanks lindar!

[Seth]

would you send the link again?

It would be lovely to have a medium in which people used this
exclusively. It would hammer out the bugs very quickly!

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[Lindar]

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/res/585.html

=D

I get productive when I'm drunk.

Anyway, I saw Elian Script one day for some reason and decided that it
was AWESOME, so I mailed CC Elian and asked for permission. I'm not
actually sure ey got to see what I did with it, so maybe somebody
should mail that link to em?

This is the first, the original, like no other. If you find any other
Elian systems for Lojban, they are ripped off of mine or done much
much much later. =P

I actually came up with this system around a year ago and just never
had the chance to post it in a really neat-looking format because I
didn't have a scanner or drawing tablet. So, I'm glad I finally got
the chance to do it!

[Amber Shadow]

I don't understand the diphthongs... They don't seem to completely
follow a pattern... But I like the writing system otherwise.

[Krzysztof Sobolewski]

Dnia niedziela, 7 listopada 2010 o 19:57:52 Lindar napisał(a):
> http://jbotcan.org/ideas/res/585.html
>
> =D
>
> I get productive when I'm drunk.
>
> Anyway, I saw Elian Script one day for some reason and decided that it
> was AWESOME, so I mailed CC Elian and asked for permission. I'm not
> actually sure ey got to see what I did with it, so maybe somebody
> should mail that link to em?

First of all I thought it would be constructive to post this link:
http://www.ccelian.com/ElianScriptFull.html
It explains *a lot* :) Especially how this would look like in handwriting.

I really like this idea. One question though: where's {y}? :)
--
Ecce Jezuch
"Penance cannot absolve you sin;
All your belief cannot absolve your sin" - D. Draiman

[Lindar]

> First of all I thought it would be constructive to post this link:http://www.ccelian.com/ElianScriptFull.html
> It explains *a lot* :) Especially how this would look like in handwriting.

Actually, that doesn't explain a damn thing, as larlermorna is really
only loosely based on Elian Script. If you look at the pictures that
I've linked, you'll see that I've included several writing and style
examples. Elian's English-mode functions veeeeeeery much not like the
Lojban mode.

> I really like this idea. One question though: where's {y}? :)

Okay, since we've got so much confusion here, I will be very explicit.

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/thumb/1289102653812s.jpg
This picture outlines the basic script. It shows the grid and how the
system was developed for a Lojban mode. Each corner of the hash
corresponds to a letter. The example text reads {.i .o'i mu xagji
sofybakni cu zvati le purdi}. This shows an example of every character
(minus the 'hard-diphthongs'), so please refer to this as your core
example. For those of you that just can't seem to get it, {.y'y} would
be written:

X X
. ^

I hope that clears up an confusion on the 'non-letters'.

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/thumb/1289103671236s.jpg
This picture outlines several writing styles. The first two were
hastily written with a round tip in two different fashions to
illustrate how each character may be 'casually' written. Note that
{coi} is the first word, and is a great example of how characters may
be variably written. It can be written as a u or a |_|, as long as
it's obvious that all 'sides' are equal(-ish) in length and that the
top is open. We can also see in the first two lines that {rodo} is
written two different ways. In the first, the D is written hanging
down, whereas in the second it's written ===| with the horizontal bars
extended instead. This is to illustrate that it doesn't matter which
dimension is lengthened as long as it's made obvious that it is not
equal in all dimensions. This is driven home in the third and fourth
examples because all of the sides -are- equal, but in both there is a
tail dropping downward. All four examples say {coi rodo mi'e
la .lindar.} except the third which says {.lin.} because I was sloppy.
Refer to this for style guides.

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/thumb/1289106614940s.jpg
This illustrates how the 'soft' diphthongs are made. I wanted to, for
the sake of consistency, fill in the entire grid for the vowels as
well. So AU AI EI OI have a single character. However, to come up with
single characters for every permutation of initial I and initial U
would be very difficult, especially since we've nearly exhausted every
permutation of this grid system. To make this easier, diphthongs that
have an initial I are overlined and initial U are underlined. The
first example reads {.ui}. It is the character {.i } with the diacrit
underlined. The second is the character {.u } which has been
overlined, giving us {.iu} as a result. The third is {.ua}, which is
the {.a } character underlined. The final example is an overlined
{.o }, which gives us {.io}.

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289156112875.png
This is a nifty picture of a giant stone monster.

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289156177933.png
This is a picture of the same using larlermorna in a 'stone etched'
style of writing as another example of its use and stylisation. The
bubble reads {.i ti mo}.

I hope I have cleared up any confusion on usage and characters.

[Jonathan Jones]

I think remo should start using this script in his comic translations - I think it's an excellent method for space-restricted writing.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[John E Clifford]

And the point of all this is...?  Creating new alphabets is an interesting part of language creation and give flight to the more aesthetically inclined.  It is thus welcomed and applauded.  But the suggestion that we actually use this (or any other clever alphabet) for Lojban inevitably brings on the point of practicality.  It is hard enough to learn Lojban as it is, in a familiar -- if  slightly modified -- alphabet, bbut to add learning a new alphabet, however clever, may well be the straw, etc. (see, as a not very atypical example, my years of not learning Hebrew, not to mention Chinese).  The fact that the letter ""all look the same" just adds to the problem in this case (cf Hebrew again and Armenian and Thai to start the list). While the claim is not literally true, it is perceptually true enough to amount to a serious problem.

But it sure looks nice.

---

From: Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 7, 2010 3:13:43 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I wanted to share this with you (writing thingy!).

[Remo Dentato]

On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 10:13 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think remo should start using this script in his comic translations - I
> think it's an excellent method for space-restricted writing.

LOL.
That would enormously increase the time needed for a translation and
reducing by the same amount the number of potential readers :)

remo

[Krzysztof Sobolewski]

Dnia niedziela, 7 listopada 2010 o 21:57:46 Lindar napisał(a):
> Actually, that doesn't explain a damn thing, as larlermorna is really
> only loosely based on Elian Script. If you look at the pictures that
> I've linked, you'll see that I've included several writing and style
> examples. Elian's English-mode functions veeeeeeery much not like the
> Lojban mode.

Actully, I was mostly interested in the historical part and where this all comes from. It gives the impression that it is well thought-out, not just another ad-hoc idea ;)

Sorry for creating even more confusion.

> > I really like this idea. One question though: where's {y}? :)
>
> Okay, since we've got so much confusion here, I will be very explicit.

I figured how it basically works the pictures alone, but i missed the {y} part.
--
Ecce Jezuch
"Silence has a definition, vocabulary of muted diction
Precise thought to miscomprehend, ambiguity in high resolution
Articulate expletive fiction open to misinterpretation - so precise"
- J. Walker

[Remo Dentato]

On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 11:20 PM, John E Clifford <kali9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> And the point of all this is...?

Apart from the fun and the beauty of the script, I think we could use
it in the mythological description of Lojbanistan.

We might create some pictures of ancient scrolls or of graffiti on a
rock with text that uses this script.
Then write a report on how Lindar managed to discover that, in
reality, those were inscriptions of early lojbanists of hundreds and
hundreds years ago.

We have an artificial language and an imaginary country, why not a
mythical history? :)

[Craig Daniel]

On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 5:20 PM, John E Clifford <kali9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> And the point of all this is...?  Creating new alphabets is an interesting
> part of language creation and give flight to the more aesthetically
> inclined.  It is thus welcomed and applauded.  But the suggestion that we
> actually use this (or any other clever alphabet) for Lojban inevitably
> brings on the point of practicality.  It is hard enough to learn Lojban as
> it is, in a familiar -- if  slightly modified -- alphabet, bbut to add
> learning a new alphabet, however clever, may well be the straw, etc. (see,
> as a not very atypical example, my years of not learning Hebrew, not to
> mention Chinese).  The fact that the letter ""all look the same" just adds
> to the problem in this case (cf Hebrew again and Armenian and Thai to start
> the list). While the claim is not literally true, it is perceptually true
> enough to amount to a serious problem.
> But it sure looks nice.

Creating new and inventive ways to write Lojban that each internally
preserve desirable lojbanic qualities, with no expectation that they
will ever catch on, and creating beautiful things with them is a hobby
nearly as old as the language itself. Seriously, the CLL mentions
Cyrillic (an actually practical one, for jbopre in Slavic countries)
and Tengwar. This sort of thing is in a very real sense the most
popular artistic tradition of the Lojban community.

So, the point is joy. And art, without which no community can thrive.
It is entirely useless, but it is fun and beautiful and that's good
enough for me.

(And it reminds me that I need to get around to digitizing some of my
own Roman-alphabet Lojban calligraphy.)

mi'e .kreig.daniyl.
noi zu stidi su'o ve pensniste ku ku'i na stidi .ai le du'u plixau

[John E. Clifford]

Nicely put!

Sent from my iPad

--

[Lindar]

Yes yes, many of you have summed up the idea very nicely. I'm not
saying everybody should use it all the time, I'm not saying it should
be officially anything. It's something that can very easily be made
beautiful due to the simple nature and flexible rules governing the
creation of a character. If I'm to suggest anything serious about
this, it would be to use it in formal writing situations much like
cursive English. It's primed to be written on wood or rock with a
great deal of clarity, it can be written out in large pixels with no
confusion, and it saves space.

So, if ever you write something out by hand, try it in larlermorna
just for fun. It's easy to remember (PlosivesFricativesLiquid | PTK
FSC LMX), so there's little learning curve.

Still no response on a previous question. Do we have any dyslexic
people on here? Is this particularly difficult to read due to every
character essentially being the same?

[Jorge Llambías]

The script looks very nice, but the way you write it can be ambiguous.
You don't distinguish "mupli bu" from "mu plibu".

You need to mark where a brivla ends somehow, so that we know which
syllable to stress.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[Amber Shadow]

1. What xorxes said.
2. What about , ?
3. http://yfrog.com/63coip <-- I tried it with my calligraphy pen.
4. Why did you choose ai ei oi au for the extra ones?
5. Why are the vowels arranges the way they are, from bottom to top?
Any particular reason? Actually, in general, is there a pattern to the
order that the characters appear in?
6. This is actually really cool!

[Lindar]

> 1. What xorxes said.
Whitespace or the next link.

> 2. What about , ?

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289248658702.png

> 3.http://yfrog.com/63coip<-- I tried it with my calligraphy pen.
Very nice!

> 4. Why did you choose ai ei oi au for the extra ones?

They're the only permitted diphthongs in Lojban that aren't initial I/
U. I had A E I O U, but then 4 more spaces to fill in the vowel grid.
More than that, it's a way to prevent non-permitted vowel clusters
from appearing because there's no actual way to write "ou" in the
system, it -has- to be "o,u" or "o.u".

This does present one small problem in that {.uai} can be written,
despite that triphthongs are not permitted in Lojban. If anybody can
think of a solution, I'd love to hear it, but I spent a lot of time
messing with the vowel grid and never came up with a decent
replacement.

> 5. Why are the vowels arranges the way they are, from bottom to top?

In the original Elian Script this is how the grid is numbered.

> Any particular reason? Actually, in general, is there a pattern to the
> order that the characters appear in?

Yes, there is a pattern. All plosives are on the left, fricatives in
the middle, and the odd characters on the right (kinda...). As for the
arrangement of PTK vs. any other arrangement of those three letters,
it was what I felt should be the correct order. There was no thought
in arranging them FSC vs. FCS vs. SCF or any other permutation, it's
just how I felt they should be ordered. As far as the voiced table, L/
R and M/N are kinda paired anyway, so blah. =P

tl;dr Dunno, mostly random arrangement. No reason in particular.

> 6. This is actually really cool!

Thank you.

Finally, for those that still don't quite get it, there's a tutorial
here:

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289250735647.png

I didn't include everything, but all of this together should give you
a fairly good idea of how to do this. It can also be written top-to-
bottom. =D

[Jorge Llambías]

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 1. What xorxes said.
> Whitespace or the next link.

> http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289248658702.png

I like the dot inside the vowel to mark stress.

> This does present one small problem in that {.uai} can be written,
> despite that triphthongs are not permitted in Lojban. If anybody can
> think of a solution, I'd love to hear it, but I spent a lot of time
> messing with the vowel grid and never came up with a decent
> replacement.

The PEG morphology allows the eight triphthongs, and CLL has at least
one example with triphthongs. So I would say it's a feature rather
than a bug.

> Finally, for those that still don't quite get it, there's a tutorial
> here:
>
> http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289250735647.png
>
> I didn't include everything, but all of this together should give you
> a fairly good idea of how to do this. It can also be written top-to-
> bottom. =D

How about this for a variation:

For a CCV syllable, you can write the second consonant inside the
first one, and the vowel inside the second consonant. For a CVC
syllable, you can write the second consonant to the right of the vowel
inside the first consonant. That way each syllable is always a single
block, and you can immediately tell how many syllables there are.
(This would effectively become a syllabary.)

[Jonathan Jones]

I wasn't being entirely serious. Considering the ease with which it is possible to learn the system, however, I think it's the perfect Lojbanic cursive.

[Jonathan Jones]

2010/11/8 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>

So, like this?

 

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289266175840.bmp

[Jorge Llambías]

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/11/8 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>

>>
>> How about this for a variation:
>>
>> For a CCV syllable, you can write the second consonant inside the
>> first one, and the vowel inside the second consonant. For a CVC
>> syllable, you can write the second consonant to the right of the vowel
>> inside the first consonant. That way each syllable is always a single
>> block, and you can immediately tell how many syllables there are.
>> (This would effectively become a syllabary.)
>

> So, like this?
>
> http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289266175840.bmp

Right. I think it looks better when the central parts of all the
blocks are aligned, so that the "ger" syllable doesn't look like it
fell off the line.

[Jonathan Jones]

2010/11/8 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>

I see what you're saying. It was a quick mock-up using M$Paint, so I didn't really put a lot of effort into it. I also made an error with the "ger" syllable, and forgot to extend the line, so that actually reads "gelku".

[Lindar]

That sounds like a nifty option iffin' you want to go that route.
For the record, that says "gelku", not "gerku". R is on the second
grid.

I would like to officially endorse this as one option when writing!

xorxes, for once I like an idea of yours. =P

[Michael Turniansky]

So, ummm... I could like, use this for my signature on pictures, if
I had any artistic ability whatwoever?

http://picasaweb.google.com/Mturniansky/Vlapir#5537576240006013778

--gejyspa

[Luke Bergen]

At first I didn't really like how you handled the vowels, but since I can't immediately think of any better ways of doing it... ok.

So I'm still not sure how "'", ".", and "," are handled under this system.  I see from one of the images that you put a little ^ looking thing underneath the "e" in "mi'e".  So, is that part of the system or was that one of many creative ways to show it?

Also, I thought I remembered at one point that you (or maybe it was lakmir or someone else) had chosen vowels that made the diphthongs more obvious.  It was something like:

i |ai | a 

__|___|___

oi| e | au

__|___|___

o | ei| u

  |   |   

Where except in the case of "ei", each vowel diphthong could be made by combining the two corners that make up the constituent vowels.  i.e.   |_  + _|  = |_|

Did this idea fall through the cracks or did I dream it?

I'm guessing at this point there is no chance of changing the system without causing an episode, so don't take this as me trying to get up in larlermorna and change everything on you lindar.  I'm just wondering whatever happened to the vowels.

[Luke Bergen]

Oh, and I can't believe I completely missed it, where is "y"?  Maybe that's what could go in that "?" block (the upper right bock in the voiced grid)?

[Michael Turniansky]

That's because NONE of the links Lindar gave actually have it all in
one place...
"Y" is an "x" shape, and the apostrophe is a "^" shape. (What I
haven't figured out from his examples is what the dot means inside of
some vowels....

--gejyspa

[Jorge Llambías]

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>  That's because NONE of the links Lindar gave actually have it all in
> one place...
>  "Y" is an "x" shape, and the apostrophe is a "^" shape.  (What I
> haven't figured out from his examples is what the dot means inside of
> some vowels....

Stress.

[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday 09 November 2010 11:36:01 Michael Turniansky wrote:
> That's because NONE of the links Lindar gave actually have it all in
> one place...
> "Y" is an "x" shape, and the apostrophe is a "^" shape. (What I
> haven't figured out from his examples is what the dot means inside of
> some vowels....

That means it's stressed, I think.

What about a consonant followed by a diphthong beginning "i" or "u", such
as "ckankua" and "martio"?

Pierre
--
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.

[Michael Turniansky]

Those would have the underlined vowel (uX) or overlined vowel (iX).

--gejyspa

[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday 09 November 2010 11:43:41 Michael Turniansky wrote:
> Those would have the underlined vowel (uX) or overlined vowel (iX).

And you put the underlined or overlined vowel inside the consonant?

Pierre

--
Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.

[Michael Turniansky]

Yup. The dipthong is treated indivisibly as a vowel.

[Lindar]

(REPOST WITH MORE STUFF ADDED)

Okay, since we've got so much confusion here, I will be very explicit.

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/res/585.html
This holds the entire thread.

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289248658702.png
Emphasis and slaka bu! Note that the slaka is a single half-length
vertical line. The example reads, as it says next to it, {.lE,os.}.
Note the denpa bu surrounding!
The example(s) below it demonstrates the use of an emphasis marker.
Dangerously close to denpa bu, but unmistakable because it can -only-
appear inside of a phoneme, whereas denpabu before a consonant appears
-next- to the consonant. So... a bit convoluted, but it makes sense.

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289250735647.png
Finally, an incomplete tutorial explaining how some stuff works.

So... This entire post should contain every single aspect of how to
write in larlermorna.

[Michael Turniansky]

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289248658702.png
> Emphasis and slaka bu! Note that the slaka is a single half-length
> vertical line. The example reads, as it says next to it, {.lE,os.}.
> Note the denpa bu surrounding!
> The example(s) below it demonstrates the use of an emphasis marker.
> Dangerously close to denpa bu, but unmistakable because it can -only-
> appear inside of a phoneme, whereas denpabu before a consonant appears
> -next- to the consonant. So... a bit convoluted, but it makes sense.
>

If you don't want to confuse everyone and his brother (well, okay,
me) you should write that both on the picture and on this email as
"LE,os", not "IE,os" since in a san serif font, you can't tell the
difference between lowercase L and uppercase i. It left me scratching
my head for ten minutes because I kept saying, "but shouldn't that be
just an overline?"
--gejyspa

[Amber Shadow]

So I decided I wanted to build one Lindar's idea, and that I actually
liked how the original Elian script looked better, so i used that as a
starting point.
After many iterations (starting with going alphabetically, then after
Lindar explained that he arranged his in the order: Plosive,
Fricative, Other; I tried that but with a small alteration) I went
full circle to Lindar's original setup. Which I find interesting. The
difference between now, and before, is that I now understand why he
arranged the letters in the particular way and it makes a lot of
sense. So once again I thought I had a better idea, and Lindar ends up
being right. Curse you :P

However, I do have some additions that I made and would like to share.
The way it's set up if you want you can do it Lindar's way (vowels
inside consonants, etc), or do it my way (using the original Elian
script style) and they don't overlap (Well, except for the four vowel
diphthongs in Lindar's vs the Y and punctuation in mine), so you can
easily tell which is which.

My idea was to make it easy to write in lojban, and in english using
this one system. I think I've succeeded. The only thing is that you
can't use apostrophes in writing english because they're taken by 'H'
in the cross with lojban. That, however, I believe is extremely minor.
Also, a note, for writing in english replace Qs with Ks and Ws with
Us. It works.

You may now turn the spotlight back on Lindar :)

[ Link to example: http://yfrog.com/ghlojbanenglishelianp ]

P.S. It goes PFL --> Plosives Fricatives Approximant-Plosive-
Fricative. Too bad the word Approximant doesn't start with an L :P
(This helps me remember the letter order, fyi)

P.P.S. Sorry if this was an uncalled for posting. But I like sharing
my ideas. Even if they were hijacked from someone else.

On Nov 9, 11:01 am, Lindar <lindartheb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> (REPOST WITH MORE STUFF ADDED)
>

> Okay, since we've got so much confusion here, I will be very explicit.http://jbotcan.org/ideas/res/585.html

[Jonathan Jones]

I think I like this method for the vowels better.

[Michael Turniansky]

I made up a mnemonic to remember the semi arbitrary order of the
consonant grid (the semi-arbitrary order of the vowel grid is a
project for another time). Anyhow, here it is (reading the grid from
left to right, top to bottom as non-Lindar glibau do):

"ko ciska xa tarmi so marna pelji fi'e la lindar"

--gejyspa

[Lindar]

> "ko ciska xa tarmi so marna pelji fi'e la lindar"

XD!! That's hilarious!


As for the semi-arbitrary theme of the vowels, it was just going in
vowel-order, then doing the odd-duck diphthong, then putting the I-
ending diphthongs all in the right column.

However, if we -are- going to change the vowel table, it's going to be
like this:

> i |oi | o
> __|___|___
> ai| e | ei
> __|___|___
> a | au| u
> | |

However, I do not exactly like this. The whole point is that it takes
no effort to remember anything because it's in a particular order,
starting at the bottom left and going up each column left-to-right.
The vowels are A E I O U AU AI EI OI because AU is an odd-duck, so it
should fill up the last space, and then the three I-enders should go
in order in the last column together. No effort in remembering,
because it's in order and matches how the entire rest of the system
goes, Whereas with the one above, it's a clockwise circle with a dip
into the middle to do the vowels in order (hard to remember), and then
the combinations of them (except ei) are the diphthongs. With the
original setup it's even worse because it's an anticlockwise circle
that starts at the top-right, which is completely counter to the order
everything else takes. So for a slightly more "oh, that makes sense"
feature in the vowels, we now break the uniformity with which
everything was made and make remembering which vowels are which that
much harder.

So if enough people want to do it the 'combining table' way, then I'll
start doing that, but I've been writing the current way for around a
year now, so it'll take a bit of effort.

Also, before you go deciding what's going to be what, consider if
you'll actually use this on a daily basis, cos I do. So don't go
changing stuff that you're not ever going to use. =D

[Michael Turniansky]

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "ko ciska xa tarmi so marna pelji fi'e la lindar"
>
>
> XD!! That's hilarious!
>
>
> As for the semi-arbitrary theme of the vowels, it was just going in
> vowel-order, then doing the odd-duck diphthong, then putting the I-
> ending diphthongs all in the right column.
>

Actually, I figured that out a few minutes afterwards (but I was
already on the way to work so couldn't follow up), so the vowels are
no problem. Glad you like my mnemonic (I've made up hundreds for
Scrabble purposes). But no one has said word one about my larlermorna
monogram. Does that mean no one liked it and are just being polite?
:-(
--gejyspa

[Lindar]

Oh, I saw it. The MSPaint art? Yeah, pretty bad.

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289416517186.png

I didn't spend a lot of time on it, but maybe somebody can vectorise
it and clean up the lines?

[Michael Turniansky]

*ahem* it was NOT MSPaint, it was Photoshop. As for yours, yeah,
it's a nice abstract, but it's not ideographic, as mine was.

--gejyspa

[Lindar]

Also, is it...
http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289417102359.png
...or...
http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289417297470.png
...?

[Michael Turniansky]

That reminds me of a question I had, that you might have covered,
but I missed it. How do you distinguish between, for example, "la
.oron." and "la .fron.", since the F and O are indistinguishable if
they are the initial letter, and have a conosonant following...?
--gejyspa

[Jorge Llambías]

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>   That reminds me of a question I had, that you might have covered,
> but I missed it.  How do you distinguish between, for example, "la
> .oron." and "la .fron.", since the F and O are indistinguishable if
> they are the initial letter, and have a conosonant following...?

The dot goes under the vowel, but in front of the consonant.

I would rather use the unsassigned symbol (voiced counterpart of "x")
for the glottal stop plus vowel though.

[Lindar]

> I would rather use the unsassigned symbol (voiced counterpart of "x")
> for the glottal stop plus vowel though.

I'm actually reserving that for q so if I get a generalised click
accepted into the language, we have one more character. BWAHAHAHA! =P

[Jonathan Jones]

I thought that was {.ybu}? No? What is it then?

[Lindar]

> I thought that was {.ybu}? No? What is it then?

Voiced X isn't anything. It's not assigned.

xorxes suggests that it be the denpa bu (I dun liek dat), you seem to
think it's .ybu, I don't think it's anything. We just don't have that
many letters.

[Jonathan Jones]

That didn't answer my question....

[Jonathan Jones]

Either one, it doesn't matter, but I prefer http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289429429212.png

 

Also, since although Lindar has managed to fail to have everything in one place, I made an alphabetical chart:

 

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289431783729.png

[Jorge Llambías]

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 8:28 PM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Voiced X isn't anything. It's not assigned.
>
> xorxes suggests that it be the denpa bu (I dun liek dat),

Only in front of a vowel, the dot is fine around cmevla. That way you
never need to leave a vowel hanging alone, which can be confusing. I
notice that when writing vertically you put the dot in front of the
vowel, and when writing horizontally you put it under the vowel. That
makes some sense, but it can be confusing. I think it's better to
always have a proper consonant enclosing a vowel, so there is never
any doubt that it's a vowel.

[Jorge Llambías]

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Also, is it...
>> http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289417102359.png
>> ...or...
>> http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289417297470.png
>> ...?
>
> Either one, it doesn't matter, but I prefer
> http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1289429429212.png

The PEG morphology prefers the other, because it doesn't like
syllables without an onset.

[Jonathan Jones]

2010/11/10 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>

 

Meh. As I said, it doesn't matter to me. Personally, I treat the {aio} as a triphthong. The difference in pronunciation between {a,io} and {ai,o} is negligible.

[Jorge Llambías]

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Meh. As I said, it doesn't matter to me. Personally, I treat the {aio} as a
> triphthong. The difference in pronunciation between {a,io} and {ai,o} is
> negligible.

From the point of view of the grammar, there is no difference at all
between them. The comma never makes a phonemic difference. If you use
it, it's just for decorative purposes. It's unfortunate that it was
ever even added to the Lojban alphabet.

[Lindar]

> From the point of view of the grammar, there is no difference at all
> between them. The comma never makes a phonemic difference. If you use
> it, it's just for decorative purposes. It's unfortunate that it was
> ever even added to the Lojban alphabet.

Isn't this completely against what the CLL says?
I thought triphthongs were illegal, and essentially that says they -
are- legal.

While it claims to not make a difference, I do hear/say one
between .A,ionys. and .AI,onys.

=/

[Krzysztof Sobolewski]

Dnia czwartek, 11 listopada 2010 o 00:55:56 Jonathan Jones napisał(a):

> Meh. As I said, it doesn't matter to me. Personally, I treat the {aio} as a
> triphthong. The difference in pronunciation between {a,io} and {ai,o} is
> negligible.

But whot you wrote is, I think, .a.ionys. (it's a pause, not a comma). That makes me willing to propose that the so-far-unused place be used for "no consonant", where you have to write a vowel and only it. It's of course only necessary for writing non-lojban stuff, hence marginal ;)
--
Ecce Jezuch
"Incisions mending the wounds within
Surroundings breach the surface of your skin
Progress in static. Life has died
Eyes and minds glint - Glints collide" - J. Kidman

[Krzysztof Sobolewski]

Dnia czwartek, 11 listopada 2010 o 12:36:33 Krzysztof Sobolewski napisał(a):
> .a.ionys.

(Upon closer inspection it looks more like {.ai.onys.} or {.[lr].onys.}, sorry ;) )
--
Ecce Jezuch
"Reality - this spiteful snake,
Rearing its ugly head, venom dripping from its grin,
As it tosses yet another obstacle in our way" - T. Haake

[Jorge Llambías]

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 11:56 PM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> From the point of view of the grammar, there is no difference at all
>> between them. The comma never makes a phonemic difference. If you use
>> it, it's just for decorative purposes. It's unfortunate that it was
>> ever even added to the Lojban alphabet.
>
> Isn't this completely against what the CLL says?

CLL says: "Commas are never required: no two Lojban words differ
solely because of the presence or placement of a comma." (Ch. 3 Sect.
3)

> I thought triphthongs were illegal, and essentially that says they -
> are- legal.

No, two vowels written together do not necessarily form a diphthong
(i.e. one syllable), and three vowels written together do not
necessarily form a thriphthong (i.e. one syllable).

"aio" is two syllables no matter how you split them, just like "aro"
is two syllables. You can write the decorative comma as "ar,o" or as
"a,ro", but it doesn't make any differrence to the morphology.

As for thriphthongs being "illegal", CLL contains the name
".i,iai,ii,iai,ion." as an example, using the triphthong "iai" twice,
but it may very well say somewhere else that triphthongs are illegal.
The morphology section in CLL is not 100% consistent.

> While it claims to not make a difference, I do hear/say one
> between .A,ionys. and .AI,onys.

That you can make and hear a difference doesn't mean the difference is
relevant. As a Spanish speaker I can pronounce "r" as an alveolar tap
or a trill and hear the difference, but it won't make any difference
to Lojban. Whichever one I use or hear, it's the same word in Lojban.

"Being the same word" is relevant in very few contexts anyway. You can
use "a,ionys" as the opening delimiter in a ZOI quote, and "ai,onys"
as the closing delimiter, and it will work, because it's the same
word, just as if I use "ra" with a tap as the opening delimiter and
"ra" with a trill as the closing delimiter.

[Jonathan Jones]

Except that Lojban words are penultimately stressed, so it would be .aIOnys. vs. .aiOnys.

[Jorge Llambías]

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> While it claims to not make a difference, I do hear/say one
>> between .A,ionys. and .AI,onys.
>

> Except that Lojban words are penultimately stressed, so it would be .aIOnys.
> vs. .aiOnys.

But "y" syllables don't count.

In any case, stress is not relevant for cmevla. So no matter where you
put the stress, and no matter how you split the syllables, you are
pronouncing the same word in all cases.

[Jonathan Jones]

2010/11/12 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>

 

I'm just going to put this up to Lindar making a mountain out of a molehill. Pronounce it how you like.

[Michael Turniansky]

2010/11/12 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

Except that xorxes and I disagree on that point. I believe that
stress is salient feature of cmevla and that la martin and la marTIN
are not the same person/animal/thing (unless that person answers to
both names).
--gjeyspa

[Jorge Llambías]

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I believe that
> stress is salient feature of cmevla and that la martin and la marTIN
> are not the same person/animal/thing (unless that person answers to
> both names).

The PEG morphology doesn't distinguish them. That means that "zoi
.marTIN. whatever .martin." is a valid sumti. You will need to use a
different morphology if they are to count as two different words.

[Craig Daniel]

2010/11/12 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

Syntactically, they're unambiguously the same word.

Semantically... well, they're probably the same in most cases, but as
a simple matter of pragmatics I'm pretty sure that if you know a
Martin and a Martín who both speak Lojban and are in the room, and you
say "doi .martin. mi do prami" nobody's going to get confused about
which one you're declaring your feelings for.

[Jorge Llambías]

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Craig Daniel <craigb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Syntactically, they're unambiguously the same word.

That's what I'm saying, yes.

> Semantically... well, they're probably the same in most cases, but as
> a simple matter of pragmatics I'm pretty sure that if you know a
> Martin and a Martín who both speak Lojban and are in the room, and you
> say "doi .martin. mi do prami" nobody's going to get confused about
> which one you're declaring your feelings for.

At least nobody who is also aware of their non-Lojban name. But that
could also be true even if they both shared the same identical
non-Lojban name. In most cases people will figure out which ".martin."
you mean just from their knowledge of the situation, who you are
looking at when speaking, or many other clues.

[Craig Daniel]

2010/11/12 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

True. But I think it's perfectly plausible, if not even remotely
common, for the morphologically-irrelevant difference in pronunciation
of the same cmevla to be relevant in a specific instance. (Plus,
pronouncing somebody's name with the stress they like on it is
friendly.)

But yeah, there's no doubt about the fact that, from a morphological
and syntactical standpoint, .martin. and .marTIN. are the same name.
Ditto .ai,on,ys., .a,iO,nys., and any other variation in placement of
the commas and the stress. As far as the grammar is concerned, it is
as irrelevant as the fact that I say the name with a rounded .y. This
isn't a matter for disagreement; it's a feature of the official
parser.

- mi'e .kreig.daniyl.
(which by the way is why I often round my .y.'s - otherwise I catch
myself saying .dani,l., which is not my name.)

[Jorge Llambías]

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Craig Daniel <craigb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> (Plus,
> pronouncing somebody's name with the stress they like on it is
> friendly.)

Yes, that's similar to pronouncing a Chinese name with the tone they
like, even though tone is irrelevant in Lojban. For personal names, it
is polite to at least try to use whatever the name bearer likes, when
you are aware of it and you are able to manage it.

But for names of places, products, and so on, insisting that everyone
should use one or another of the permissible forms is not really
practical.

> But yeah, there's no doubt about the fact that, from a morphological
> and syntactical standpoint, .martin. and .marTIN. are the same name.
> Ditto .ai,on,ys., .a,iO,nys., and any other variation in placement of
> the commas and the stress. As far as the grammar is concerned, it is
> as irrelevant as the fact that I say the name with a rounded .y. This
> isn't a matter for disagreement; it's a feature of the official
> parser.

At least a feature of the official-to-be parser. I don't know what the
currently official parser does, since it doesn't really have a fully
functional morphology.

[Michael Turniansky]

2010/11/12 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

I know we can either a) go around with the same conversation again
or b) say "look it up the last time we did" but I'm forced once again
to point out that unlike tone or allophones, stress is recognized by
lojban as a language feature that makes a meaningful difference in
utterances, so to say that it doesn't make a difference in cmevla in
particular, is an arbitrary ruling (made by xorxes?) that I see no
support for. And to refer to your friend martin (=MARtin) as
"marTIN" is just plain wrong. la'e zo marTIN na du la'e zo MARtin .i
seni'ibo zo marTIN na du zo MARtin (I think I'll start referring to
xorxes as "djordj" and see how that goes over).

--gejyspa

[Michael Turniansky]

Oh, and to amplify the "... I see no support for" see CLL, chapter
4, section 8.10, point 4):
"4)
They may be stressed on any syllable; if this syllable is not the
penultimate one, it must be capitalized when writing. Neither names
nor words that begin sentences are capitalized in Lojban, so this is
the only use of capital letters."
Which means that stress MUST be a differntiating feature.

--gy

[Jorge Llambías]

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I know we can either a) go around with the same conversation again
> or b) say "look it up the last time we did" but I'm forced once again
> to point out that unlike tone or allophones, stress is recognized by
> lojban as a language feature that makes a meaningful difference in
> utterances, so to say that it doesn't make a difference in cmevla in
> particular, is an arbitrary ruling (made by xorxes?) that I see no
> support for.

It's not just in cmevla, it also doesn't make a difference in cmavo.

ba'e (without any stress), BA'e and ba'E are all the same word. I
suppose you don't dispute that.

It is only brivla that require penultimate stress, the other words
just usually follow suit, but don't require it. You are also free to
stress more than one syllable in a cmevla, which you can't do in
brivla, no matter how long.

> And to refer to your friend martin (=MARtin) as
> "marTIN" is just plain wrong. la'e zo marTIN na du la'e zo MARtin .i
> seni'ibo zo marTIN na du zo MARtin  (I think I'll start referring to
> xorxes as "djordj" and see how that goes over).

"xorxes" and "djordj" are two different names in Lojban, but it
doesn't bother me at all to be called "djordj", it is actually one of
my nicknames.

[Craig Daniel]

2010/11/12 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

>
> "xorxes" and "djordj" are two different names in Lojban, but it
> doesn't bother me at all to be called "djordj", it is actually one of
> my nicknames.
>

Also, of course, Jorge and George are two different names in English.
And in Spanish. (Although if you have something in Spanish being
Lojbanized as ".djordj.", it would have to be spelled "yorll" or
something, which is phonotactically invalid.)

- mi'e .kreig.

[Michael Turniansky]

2010/11/12 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  I know we can either a) go around with the same conversation again
>> or b) say "look it up the last time we did" but I'm forced once again
>> to point out that unlike tone or allophones, stress is recognized by
>> lojban as a language feature that makes a meaningful difference in
>> utterances, so to say that it doesn't make a difference in cmevla in
>> particular, is an arbitrary ruling (made by xorxes?) that I see no
>> support for.
>
> It's not just in cmevla, it also doesn't make a difference in cmavo.
>
> ba'e (without any stress), BA'e and ba'E are all the same word. I
> suppose you don't dispute that.
>

Of course I don't dispute that. That's explicitly stated in the
CLL in that same chapter, section 2.5: "There is no particular stress
required in cmavo or their compounds. Some conventions do exist that
are not mandatory", and then goes on to explain the constraints to
that rule. This is the exact opposite of what is has by cmevla, which
says you MUST show their stress if it's not penultimate.
--gejyspa

[Michael Turniansky]

Of course, and I contend that xorXES and XORxes are two different
names in lojban.

--gejyspa

[Jorge Llambías]

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Craig Daniel <craigb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Also, of course, Jorge and George are two different names in English.
> And in Spanish. (Although if you have something in Spanish being
> Lojbanized as ".djordj.", it would have to be spelled "yorll" or
> something, which is phonotactically invalid.)

Yorll is impossible, a word can't end with "ll" in Spanish, but the
name "Yoryi" exists, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoryi_Morel

[Craig Daniel]

2010/11/12 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Craig Daniel <craigb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Also, of course, Jorge and George are two different names in English.
>> And in Spanish. (Although if you have something in Spanish being
>> Lojbanized as ".djordj.", it would have to be spelled "yorll" or
>> something, which is phonotactically invalid.)
>
> Yorll is impossible, a word can't end with "ll" in Spanish, but the

Yup, hence the "phonotactically invalid" part.

> name "Yoryi" exists, for example:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoryi_Morel

Hm. While I'd be inclined to Lojbanize that with an s on the end, I
guess it could be truncated instead. Hadn't thought of that. (Going
backwards from Lojban names into natlangs always takes some
inventiveness, as it's the inverse of a process that is both
unstandardized and lossy.)

[Jorge Llambías]

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Craig Daniel <craigb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/11/12 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

>
>> name "Yoryi" exists, for example:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoryi_Morel
>
> Hm. While I'd be inclined to Lojbanize that with an s on the end, I
> guess it could be truncated instead. Hadn't thought of that. (Going
> backwards from Lojban names into natlangs always takes some
> inventiveness, as it's the inverse of a process that is both
> unstandardized and lossy.)

I wasn't actually suggesting that "djordj" would be a good
Lojbanization of Spanish "Yoryi". I don't know how he pronounced his
name, but with my pronunciation it would go into Lojban as "corc(is)"
or "jorj(is), not as "djordj", and I suppose many would rather go with
"ioriis".

[Amber Shadow]

http://fontstruct.fontshop.com/fontstructions/show/407703

GIMME MY BPFKS!

:D I hope this is good. If you find a problem, and I can fix it, I
will.

On Nov 6, 8:08 pm, Lindar <lindartheb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yeah, millionth and first system, but I thought it rocked.
>
> (slightly drunk, forgive my rudeness you cunt)
>
> http://jbotcan.org/ideas/res/585.html
>
> Here's an example. I'm going to post some fancy versions, so keep
> watching. I'll probably post again when I've posted again, so watch
> out for redundancy issues and RDR departments.
>
> So, yeah, awesome.
>
> View it! Try to write with it.
>
> If somebody can make me a way to type with this (in gedit) I will
> award them five BPFKs.
> This is a promise!
> (DISCLAIMER: The previous statement in no way guarantees anything at
> all ever and you should shut up.)
>
> One cookie if you write with it on a tablet, two cookies if you write
> with a pen and scan or photograph it!

[Remo Dentato]

Do we have to signup to download it? It would be great if you could
post in on the lojban wiki!

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>
>

[Amber Shadow]

Ah, yes, it does look like you have to sign up to download it. I
attached it to http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Alternate%20Orthographies
.
I don't know how it looks when you use the font itself because I
haven't tried. I can only say it works in the preview function on
FontStruct.
I'll soon be making a similar font for my script as well. When it's
finished it'll go on the same page. So keep a look out for it if
you're interested.

[Michael Turniansky]

  It works really well.  Kudos!  The only thing is you seemed to have missed the y'y? (also, would it be too much to ask to have captials interpred the same way as smalls?).

            --gejyspa

[Amber Shadow]

http://jbotcan.org/ideas/res/604.html#i604

That is the latests version (at the bottom) which works better.
y'y is now visible (there was a problem where it wasn't appearing,
which is probably why you thought it wasn't there. It's been there
since the first version), and I optimized the whole font so it's a bit
easier to read.
I suggest using font size 18 for optimal viewing pleasure :P

The reason I can't do the capital letters thing you request is that A,
E, I, O are being taken by AU, EI, AI, OI, respectively.

On Nov 24, 5:21 am, Michael Turniansky <mturnian...@gmail.com> wrote:
>   It works really well.  Kudos!  The only thing is you seemed to have missed
> the y'y? (also, would it be too much to ask to have captials interpred the
> same way as smalls?).
>             --gejyspa
>

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[Michael Turniansky]

  Yeah, I realized after I sent that why you couldn't do that to the uppercase letters.  On the other hand, I finally figured out the problem with the y'y was MSWord's autocorrect feature (which I didn't realize I had to tell "SHUT UP" in two places)  (on the other hand, if you treat the curly apostrophe the same way as you do the straight one...) (which is much the same reason I had the captials request.  To fight back agains MS' "infinite wisdom").

 

  Once agin, great product.

        --gjeyspa

 

 

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[Amber Shadow]

I could make the right single quote (the curly apostrophe) the same as
the apostrophe I suppose.
Yeah, I didn't foresee the problem with Word... I test my fonts in
notepad XP

On Nov 24, 11:06 am, Michael Turniansky <mturnian...@gmail.com> wrote:
>   Yeah, I realized after I sent that why you couldn't do that to the
> uppercase letters.  On the other hand, I finally figured out the problem
> with the y'y was MSWord's autocorrect feature (which I didn't realize I had
> to tell "SHUT UP" in two places)  (on the other hand, if you treat the curly
> apostrophe the same way as you do the straight one...) (which is much the
> same reason I had the captials request.  To fight back agains MS' "infinite
> wisdom").
>
>   Once agin, great product.
>         --gjeyspa
>

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