Linux woes (compaq for one) on the horizon !
Yanglong Zhu
I wake up to a horrific reality that some computer manufacturers may be
trying to suppress and uproot Linux and all other free Operating
Systems. How? They make computers that do not read nor write those free
OS bootdisks in drive A. It is a very bad trick upon us free OS users.
We must wake up and get together to fight this war.
I bought a Compaq Presario 5834 two weeks ago. I bought this computer
with Linux in mind. But after days of trying and calling support service
reps, I'm left stranded with a computer not at all of any use to me. At
this moment, I don't know how widespread this phenomenon is. But I urge
everybody who loves these free OS and free softeware in general do a bit
investigation to monitor this computer industry's new move.
I suspect that this kind of restriction of Linux and other free OSes are
implemented through BIOS and/or Hardware, therefore it could defeat the
Free Software Movement if we don't get together to fight it. Or are we
ready to devise FREE BIOS and FREE OS COMPATIBLE HARDWARE???
This may be an over reaction. But it does pose the threatening
potential.
Hugh Lawson
>Hi all,
>
>I wake up to a horrific reality that some computer manufacturers may be
>trying to suppress and uproot Linux and all other free Operating
>Systems. How? They make computers that do not read nor write those free
>OS bootdisks in drive A. It is a very bad trick upon us free OS users.
Please explain more. Do you mean that it is impossible to use
./dosutils/rawrite.exe to copy ./images/boot.img to a floppy, and then
to boot the computer with the floppy in drive A:\ ??
--
Hugh Lawson
Greensboro, North Carolina
hla...@triad.rr.com
Jamin Collins
on a bootable CD. Additionally, I believe you simply got tech's that were
not familiar with the product. I have yet to see a single IBM clone that
would not boot from a properly configured, functional floppy drive
containing a bootable disk. Now, I'm not saying that Compaq may not ship it
will floppy booting disabled (i.e. not set in the BIOS, or set after HD
and/or CD). I am saying that it is HIGHLY unlikely that they have removed
the functionality all together. Additionally, your claims "I suspect that
this kind of restriction of Linux and other free OSes..." are rather
unfounded. Compaq has supported Linux for quite some time on thier
machines. You might find this information interesting
http://www.compaq.com/products/servers/linux/index.html
I know that this is concerning their servers, but it does show that the
company supports Linux.
Jamin
"Yanglong Zhu" <yz...@ou.edu> wrote in message
news:390D3AAF...@ou.edu...
> Hi all,
>
> I wake up to a horrific reality that some computer manufacturers may be
> trying to suppress and uproot Linux and all other free Operating
> Systems. How? They make computers that do not read nor write those free
> OS bootdisks in drive A. It is a very bad trick upon us free OS users.
Jeffrey S Austin
> Hi all,
>
> I wake up to a horrific reality that some computer manufacturers may be
> trying to suppress and uproot Linux and all other free Operating
> Systems. How? They make computers that do not read nor write those free
> OS bootdisks in drive A. It is a very bad trick upon us free OS users.
> We must wake up and get together to fight this war.
>
> I bought a Compaq Presario 5834 two weeks ago. I bought this computer
> with Linux in mind. But after days of trying and calling support service
>
> reps, I'm left stranded with a computer not at all of any use to me. At
> this moment, I don't know how widespread this phenomenon is. But I urge
> everybody who loves these free OS and free softeware in general do a bit
>
> investigation to monitor this computer industry's new move.
>
> I suspect that this kind of restriction of Linux and other free OSes are
>
> implemented through BIOS and/or Hardware, therefore it could defeat the
> Free Software Movement if we don't get together to fight it. Or are we
> ready to devise FREE BIOS and FREE OS COMPATIBLE HARDWARE???
>
> This may be an over reaction. But it does pose the threatening
> potential.
Yes,
It is an over reaction. Compaq, Dell, Hewlett-Packard among others have
been loading Linux, generally Red Hat, at the factory for customers for
quite sometime now. Hewlett-Packard has been loading Linux on their
high-end Intel based workstations and have been openly sponsoring The
Puffin Group's efforts in porting Linux to HP's PA-RISC chips, and possibly
the new Intel IA-64 chip. Please remember that Linux has to work with a
motherboard that was designed for MS-DOS, whereas it should have been the
other way. The main problem I see is to get application software to run on
Linux and I don't just mean a MS-Windows application using WINE. No, the
future of Linux looks very good from my perspective.
--
Jeffrey S Austin
Freshman Civil Engineering Student
Old Dominion University
http://www.cee.odu.edu
Yanglong Zhu
> On Mon, 01 May 2000 01:05:03 -0700, Yanglong Zhu <yz...@ou.edu> wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> >I wake up to a horrific reality that some computer manufacturers may be
> >trying to suppress and uproot Linux and all other free Operating
> >Systems. How? They make computers that do not read nor write those free
> >OS bootdisks in drive A. It is a very bad trick upon us free OS users.
>
> Please explain more. Do you mean that it is impossible to use
> ./dosutils/rawrite.exe to copy ./images/boot.img to a floppy, and then
> to boot the computer with the floppy in drive A:\ ??
>
> --
> Hugh Lawson
> Greensboro, North Carolina
> hla...@triad.rr.com
Hi Hugh Lawson,
Thank you for your interest in this issue.
I can use the rawrite to make the RHLinux boot.img on my machine just fine.
The problem is to use this boot.img disk to install RHL on my machine. I can
see the first screen of the RHL installation all right. But when I click the
return key to load the initrd.img the disk reading stops, and report an
failure. In reality I could install the RHL from my CD/DVD drive all the way
through but the very last step. That is I can't write a bootdisk for my
system; and I can't write to the MBR of the hard disk (at this point I have
only one hard drive on the machine).
My guess is all DOS/WINDOWS programs will run fine, but anything other than
DOS/WINDOWS will probably run into problem.
Yanglong Zhu
> Yanglong Zhu wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I wake up to a horrific reality that some computer manufacturers may be
> > trying to suppress and uproot Linux and all other free Operating
> > Systems. How? They make computers that do not read nor write those free
> > OS bootdisks in drive A. It is a very bad trick upon us free OS users.
Hi Jeffrey S Austin
Thank you for joining the discussion.
But do you mean if a manufacturer announces its support of Linux, then all
computers they make would measure up to their words? Wouldn't they use this as
a propaganda to promote their image? To lure more customers?
I agree that the future of Linux looks very good. But especially at this time
we should not forget the danger on the horizon. Netscape looked very very
promising at one time. Don't you agree? Then what happened! Linux is different
from Netscape. But the underlying danger is very the same kind. To eliminate
the very basis of Linux existence.
Linux exists and develops on the hardware is already there. Not on some special
hardware. That's Linux's strength. However some manufacturers are trying to
destroy the basis. Is this a danger for Linux?
Yanglong Zhu
How is this a problem? Most every Linux distribution I know of is available
on a bootable CD. Additionally, I believe you simply got tech's that were
not familiar with the product. I have yet to see a single IBM clone that
would not boot from a properly configured, functional floppy drive
containing a bootable disk.
Now, I'm not saying that Compaq may not ship it
will floppy booting disabled (i.e. not set in the BIOS, or set after HD
and/or CD).
I am saying that it is HIGHLY unlikely that they have removed
the functionality all together. Additionally, your claims "I suspect that
this kind of restriction of Linux and other free OSes..." are rather
unfounded. Compaq has supported Linux for quite some time on thier
machines. You might find this information interesting
http://www.compaq.com/products/servers/linux/index.html
Jamin
"Yanglong Zhu" <yz...@ou.edu> wrote in message
news:390D3AAF...@ou.edu...
Bill
have something to do with their disk based BIOS (that's enough to scare me
away from Compaq). You might try installing a second hard drive and install
Linux on the slave disk.......
"Yanglong Zhu" <yz...@ou.edu> wrote in message
news:390DFB9B...@ou.edu...
> Jeffrey S Austin wrote:
>
> > Yanglong Zhu wrote:
> >
marc
> I hope I don't offend anyone,
Didn't offend me :)
> but one of the previous posts described
> the situation, and it sounds exactly like when you don't have the jumper
> setting correct on the hard drive.
Compaq ALWAYS (at least in my experience) sets the jumper to "CS" or
"cable select". I would be quite interested to know if changing the
jumper to "MA" or "Master" has any effect on this.
Personally, I don't think it would make that much difference, and the
simple fact that this is "newer hardware" does make a difference.
Further, the Presario line has been for DFU's or "dumb freaking users"
(rated PG), and historically supports Windows 9x. It's not even on the
HCL for Windows NT.
I ran into the same problem with the IBM Aptiva .. No Windows NT drivers
for the video card, and IBM's response was, "that OS is supported on
this machine"
Please try the jumper settings, and post your results here .. Good Luck
-Marc
[ Marc succesfully dodges and avoids the marketing fluff argument,
although pertinent ]
marc
>
> [ Major Snippage in Effect ]
>
> > I hope I don't offend anyone,
>
> Didn't offend me :)
>
> for the video card, and IBM's response was, "that OS is supported on
> this machine"
>
errrr .. I meant Not supported
-Marc
David Gillam
I hope I don't offend anyone, but one of the previous posts described
the situation, and it sounds exactly like when you don't have the jumper
setting correct on the hard drive. If the drive is not set to be the
master, my experience is that you can load software to it all day, but
you can't modify the MBR. The problem with not making a boot diskette
is probably a different problem unrelated to the MBR problem. There is
a known problem with the RedHat 6.1 graphical install program that
doesn't let you make that diskette. You have to either avoid that
method of installation -- being very careful about which choices you
make along the way, or immediately after installation make the boot
diskette "manually".
If a vendor loads Linux at the factory; if a vendor ships a PC with
Linux CDs, that vendor is simply promoting his/her hardware to a group
he/she would not have direct sales to otherwise. The hardware vendor
ultimately doesn't care what software you run on the hardware, so long
as you buy the hardware. Of course, physically tweaking the hardware
beyond warranted settings (overclocking), and choosing too-high settings
in software drivers (monitors) are exceptions, since you are operating
the hardware outside of warranted parameters.
Let's assume that the hardware vendor is actually doing what you're
suggesting. There is a law against what is called "bait-and-switch". A
vendor cannot legally indicate the availability of a product, then
substitute an inferior product once the customer arrives to purchase the
product. This effectively is what you described. If the vendor wants
to open up a separate hardware line for linux (as opposed to other PC
OSes), then that's a different story, and I personally don't see
anything wrong with it, other than it probably not being a good fiscal
idea for the vendor. It's much less expensive to have one product line
that everyone can buy, rather than a totally separate, incompatible
product line.
If a minority of companies actually do this, then it's no problem for
linux. If a majority of companies do this, then as long as linux has a
strong following (and a growing one), it could actually turn out to be
good for linux. Imagine the following chart of a fictitious hardware
vendor:
Percent of Total Sales by Product Line
2000 2001 2002 2003 2004
linux 5% 10% 18% 34% 60%
Windows 95% 90% 82% 66% 40%
Which hardware line would *you* most likely decide to discontinue? I
know I'd keep the linux line!
--
Divorce is a game played by lawyers.
-- Cary Grant
_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ David Gillam
_/ _/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/_/
_/ _/ _/ _/ USA
_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/
David Gillam
>
> [ Marc succesfully dodges and avoids the marketing fluff argument,
> although pertinent ]
My, you *are* nimble, aren't you?! :-)
--
The lawgiver, of all beings, most owes the law allegiance. He of all
men
should behave as though the law compelled him. But it is the universal
weakness of mankind that what we are given to administer we presently
imagine
we own.
-- H.G. Wells
Jamin Collins
Simply don't modify the existing Utilities Partition (what you refer to as a
disk bios) and you will be just fine. I honestly believe that Yanglong Zhu
has over reacted here or simply made an error in installation.
Jamin
"Bill" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:gcpP4.4441$J81....@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> I wonder if your trouble installing linux on your Compaq machine doesn't
> have something to do with their disk based BIOS (that's enough to scare me
> away from Compaq). You might try installing a second hard drive and
install
> Linux on the slave disk.......
>
>
> "Yanglong Zhu" <yz...@ou.edu> wrote in message
> news:390DFB9B...@ou.edu...
Anita Lewis
>Hi all,
>
>I wake up to a horrific reality that some computer manufacturers may be
>trying to suppress and uproot Linux and all other free Operating
>Systems. How? They make computers that do not read nor write those free
>OS bootdisks in drive A. It is a very bad trick upon us free OS users.
>We must wake up and get together to fight this war.
>
>I bought a Compaq Presario 5834 two weeks ago. I bought this computer
>with Linux in mind. But after days of trying and calling support service
>
>reps, I'm left stranded with a computer not at all of any use to me. At
>this moment, I don't know how widespread this phenomenon is. But I urge
>everybody who loves these free OS and free softeware in general do a bit
>
>investigation to monitor this computer industry's new move.
>
>I suspect that this kind of restriction of Linux and other free OSes are
>
>implemented through BIOS and/or Hardware, therefore it could defeat the
>Free Software Movement if we don't get together to fight it. Or are we
>ready to devise FREE BIOS and FREE OS COMPATIBLE HARDWARE???
>
>This may be an over reaction. But it does pose the threatening
>potential.
>
>
>
have some trouble configuring the MediaGx video, but the installation went
without any problem So did Slackware 7.0 and RH 6.0. I doubt seriously
that they have made it especially difficult to install Linux. What distro of
Linux are you trying to install? There may be some problem with that.
Anita
Dale Wilcox
> How is this a problem? Most every Linux distribution I know of is available
> on a bootable CD. Additionally, I believe you simply got tech's that were
> not familiar with the product. I have yet to see a single IBM clone that
> would not boot from a properly configured, functional floppy drive
> containing a bootable disk. Now, I'm not saying that Compaq may not ship it
> will floppy booting disabled (i.e. not set in the BIOS, or set after HD
> and/or CD). I am saying that it is HIGHLY unlikely that they have removed
> the functionality all together. Additionally, your claims "I suspect that
> this kind of restriction of Linux and other free OSes..." are rather
> unfounded. Compaq has supported Linux for quite some time on thier
> machines. You might find this information interesting
> http://www.compaq.com/products/servers/linux/index.html
>
> I know that this is concerning their servers, but it does show that the
> company supports Linux.
>
> Jamin
> "Yanglong Zhu" <yz...@ou.edu> wrote in message
> news:390D3AAF...@ou.edu...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I wake up to a horrific reality that some computer manufacturers may be
> > trying to suppress and uproot Linux and all other free Operating
> > Systems. How? They make computers that do not read nor write those free
> > OS bootdisks in drive A. It is a very bad trick upon us free OS users.
> > We must wake up and get together to fight this war.
> >
> > I bought a Compaq Presario 5834 two weeks ago. I bought this computer
> > with Linux in mind. But after days of trying and calling support service
> >
> > reps, I'm left stranded with a computer not at all of any use to me. At
> > this moment, I don't know how widespread this phenomenon is. But I urge
> > everybody who loves these free OS and free softeware in general do a bit
> >
> > investigation to monitor this computer industry's new move.
> >
> > I suspect that this kind of restriction of Linux and other free OSes are
> >
> > implemented through BIOS and/or Hardware, therefore it could defeat the
> > Free Software Movement if we don't get together to fight it. Or are we
> > ready to devise FREE BIOS and FREE OS COMPATIBLE HARDWARE???
> >
> > This may be an over reaction. But it does pose the threatening
> > potential.
> >
> >
> >
I bought a DELL GX1 this past Nov with Linux installed. When I wanted to do an
updrade I found that the floppy was not set to the first boot device. I simply
went into the BIOS config and changed it to be the first boot device.
Yanglong Zhu
David Gillam wrote:
That's exactly what happens if you try install RHL 5.1 through 6.2 on that model. The
machine refuses to load initrd.img.
>
>
> If a vendor loads Linux at the factory; if a vendor ships a PC with
> Linux CDs, that vendor is simply promoting his/her hardware to a group
> he/she would not have direct sales to otherwise. The hardware vendor
> ultimately doesn't care what software you run on the hardware, so long
> as you buy the hardware. Of course, physically tweaking the hardware
> beyond warranted settings (overclocking), and choosing too-high settings
> in software drivers (monitors) are exceptions, since you are operating
> the hardware outside of warranted parameters.
That could be something they have done on the machine. But their tech support don't
know how or don't want to solve the issue.
>
>
> Let's assume that the hardware vendor is actually doing what you're
> suggesting. There is a law against what is called "bait-and-switch". A
> vendor cannot legally indicate the availability of a product, then
> substitute an inferior product once the customer arrives to purchase the
> product. This effectively is what you described.
They didn't say Presario machines supports Linux, though. The key is they didn't say
Presario machines do not support Linux. How can you catch them? The trick is that we
accept it as a norm that Linux bootdisks will be supported on **all** PCs. Compaq
breaks this norm!
> If the vendor wants
> to open up a separate hardware line for linux (as opposed to other PC
> OSes), then that's a different story, and I personally don't see
> anything wrong with it, other than it probably not being a good fiscal
> idea for the vendor. It's much less expensive to have one product line
> that everyone can buy, rather than a totally separate, incompatible
> product line.
>
> If a minority of companies actually do this, then it's no problem for
> linux. If a majority of companies do this, then as long as linux has a
> strong following (and a growing one), it could actually turn out to be
> good for linux. Imagine the following chart of a fictitious hardware
> vendor:
>
> Percent of Total Sales by Product Line
> 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004
> linux 5% 10% 18% 34% 60%
> Windows 95% 90% 82% 66% 40%
>
> Which hardware line would *you* most likely decide to discontinue? I
> know I'd keep the linux line!
That is based on the overall long term market behavior, has nothing to do with my
particular purchase. Why can't they simply declare that Presario line machines made
after 1998 do not support Linux? Or need extra/proprietary tweaks?
Yanglong Zhu
Jamin Collins wrote:
> I've installed Linux on several compaq's with no problem what so ever.
> Simply don't modify the existing Utilities Partition (what you refer to as a
> disk bios) and you will be just fine. I honestly believe that Yanglong Zhu
> has over reacted here or simply made an error in installation.
>
Yes, I have made a mistake in installing Linux on the Presario. I should not
even tried at all. That's what one of their Linux knowledgeable tech support
suggested to me. I think we should not just talk on the net. If you think it is
outrageously surprising/frightening for this to happen in the computer industry,
why don't you guys go to those computer stores (if there is one near you) and
try it out. I did. I found Compaq Presario 7478 does exactly the same thing as
Presario 5834.
>
> Jamin
> "Bill" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:gcpP4.4441$J81....@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > I wonder if your trouble installing linux on your Compaq machine doesn't
> > have something to do with their disk based BIOS (that's enough to scare me
> > away from Compaq). You might try installing a second hard drive and
> install
> > Linux on the slave disk.......
> >
> >
> > "Yanglong Zhu" <yz...@ou.edu> wrote in message
> > news:390DFB9B...@ou.edu...
Bert Sainz
Yanglong Zhu wrote:
> David Gillam wrote:
>
> > Yanglong Zhu wrote:
> > >
> > > Jeffrey S Austin wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yanglong Zhu wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I wake up to a horrific reality that some computer manufacturers may be
> > > > > trying to suppress and uproot Linux and all other free Operating
> > > > > Systems. How? They make computers that do not read nor write those free
> > > > > OS bootdisks in drive A. It is a very bad trick upon us free OS users.
> > > > > We must wake up and get together to fight this war.
> > > > >
> > > > > I bought a Compaq Presario 5834 two weeks ago. I bought this computer
> > > > > with Linux in mind. But after days of trying and calling support service
> > > > > reps, I'm left stranded with a computer not at all of any use to me. At
> > > > > this moment, I don't know how widespread this phenomenon is. But I urge
> > > > > everybody who loves these free OS and free softeware in general do a bit
> > > > > investigation to monitor this computer industry's new move.
>
Actually that is the way Compaq tech support works. They will not provide you with
support for an OS other than the one that is shipped with the machine. They will not even
help you install Win95 SR2 if the machine originally came with Win95 SR2. They will tell
you to use the restore the machine with their restore CD and then, if you still have a
problem, then they will provide support.
You are trying to get support for an OS that tech support is not setup for. You are on
your own when you do this.
This does not mean the Presario line will not run Linux, just that you should not expect
tech support to help you when you run into problems.
The company I worked for up to a few months ago was a Compaq certified repair center and
I have dealt with this problem many times when a customer came in with a machine (not
just Presarios) that they had installed an OS or a version of an OS other than what the
machine came with.
The same is true with IBM, HP, Dell and probably others.
The problem goes further. You will not get support (or will get reluctant support) if you
try to install a NIC in a Presario that is not a Compaq NIC. This is specially so with
servers. It makes sense. Presarios are low-end home machines. Putting in a NIC on it
makes it a non-home machine.Why should a manufacturer try to keep a support database for
any kind of hardware or software that you might want to install on their machines? The
stock answer is to check with the hardware/software manufacturer for support.
Compaq will provide support for installing a NIC on a Presario provided the NIC is a
Compaq product. But I do hope you find an open slot to install it in.
I suggest you check the RH site for information on this problem. You are not likely to be
the only one who has had this problem before.
And do try reformatting the diskette you are using to create a boot disk. I had a problem
once when trying to install memtest-86, a Linux memory test program, on some Sony
diskettes. I solved it by putting a Linux native fs on the diskette and suddenly my
problems went away. There was something funny about the format on that batch of
diskettes.
Bert