RE: Shma with Trop

[rjhendel]

Answers to Mark, Rabbi W, Ari

RABBI W:
Again: I hold that the requirement to "read" shma means to "read it" with
vocalization and trope. In other words just as you can't read without
vocalizing so too you can't read without punctuating.

MARK / ARI:
"Read it up to elokeychem and just say emeth"

I can't do that since it is not coherent language. You can't just "say a
word" That is not "talk" I am NOT asked to say shma and then say Emeth
but rather (for whatever reason) I am asked to add the word emeth to the
sentence. To the extent that I am ordered to "change the biblical
sentence" I am also ordered to change the trop.

ARI: I am not happy about changing the trope. But if the words of the
sentence are changed then I have to punctuate the sentence when I read it
and THAT punctuation becomes the trope that I read.

You ask about VeZoth HaTorah.... Well I have no requirement to "read it"
- I say it. But I do punctuate it and that punctuation reflects one
verse.

I have no objection to saying that we add EMETH based on the Jeremiah
verse. But then the trope must be changed accordingly (The trope I added
is consistent with the Jeremiah trope - if you want I will go into it

RUSSELL
____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
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[rjhendel]

Answers to Mark, Rabbi W, Ari

RABBI W:
Again: I hold that the requirement to "read" shma means to "read it" with
vocalization and trope. In other words just as you can't read without
vocalizing so too you can't read without punctuating.

MARK / ARI:
"Read it up to elokeychem and just say emeth"

I can't do that since it is not coherent language. You can't just "say a
word" That is not "talk" I am NOT asked to say shma and then say Emeth
but rather (for whatever reason) I am asked to add the word emeth to the
sentence. To the extent that I am ordered to "change the biblical
sentence" I am also ordered to change the trop.

ARI: I am not happy about changing the trope. But if the words of the
sentence are changed then I have to punctuate the sentence when I read it
and THAT punctuation becomes the trope that I read.

You ask about VeZoth HaTorah.... Well I have no requirement to "read it"
- I say it. But I do punctuate it and that punctuation reflects one
verse.

I have no objection to saying that we add EMETH based on the Jeremiah
verse. But then the trope must be changed accordingly (The trope I added
is consistent with the Jeremiah trope - if you want I will go into it

RUSSELL
____________________________________________________________
60-Year-Old Mom Looks 27
Mom Reveals Free Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4f04ec776761e138e2dcst05duc

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

«RABBI W:

Again: I hold that the requirement to "read" shma means to "read it" with
vocalization and trope. In other words just as you can't read without

vocalizing so too you can't read without punctuating.»

But where is that articulated?

The g'mara DOES mention various mispronounciations. * So how can we just extrapolate and add that layer on? One may infer many things not implied.

* EG mixing up Aleph and Ayyin

Unlike the above the Talmud does NOT say for example that a Shatz who fails to read sh'ma with t'amim is passul..

At least bring me a raya!
Shalom and Regards, RRW

[Poppers, Michael]

In digest "[leining] Digest for lei...@googlegroups.com - 21 Messages in 2 Topics" (04 Jan 2012), Dr. Russell J. Hendel wrote:
> I am asked to add the word emeth to the sentence <

Not to nitpick but rather to strengthen: I would suggest that we're supposed to _connect_ "H' Elokeichem" with "Emes" -- accordingly, I agree with RRJH that when doing so while 'lein'ing Shma, the trop has to be at least somewhat connective in nature, and whether one is qorei his way (with "Elokeichem" having a mafsiq but one that essentially acts like a m'shareis because the next ta'am, on "emes," is a silluq) or mine (with "Elokeichem" having a m'shareis and "emes" having a silluq), I don't think reading as if both "Elokeichem" and "emes" have a silluq works to connect them.

All the best from
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

[Henry Goodman]

I have a similar question that arose from the Taanis which we had earlier
today (and from which I have now recovered)
In the leining the 13 midot are said aloud by the kehilla before the baal
koreh. Should that be to the correct trop? If so, we have a similar problem
to shema in that we read up to es nachto on vechato'o then there is the
extra word venakeh which is punctuated with a pashta and starts a new
half-posuk.
Henry Goodman
email henry....@virgin.net

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[Poppers, Michael]

In digest "[leining] Digest for lei...@googlegroups.com - 7 Messages in 5 Topics" (05 Jan 2012), Henry Goodman asked:
> I have a similar question that arose from the Taanis which we had earlier today (and from which I have now recovered). In the leining the 13 midot are said aloud by the kehilla before the baal koreh. Should that be to the correct trop? <
AFAIK, there is no chiyuv q'riyah for the tzibbur during the q'riyah for a Ta'anis Tzibbur the way there is for each individual 2x/day re Shma. That said, I do say those phrases w/ trop, more because I know them well (P'Ki Sisa is the sedrah I leined as a Bar Mitzvah :)), and I do stop w/ "v'naqeih" and its pashta.

A gut'n Shabbes and all the best from