barukh shem kevod with trop

[AMK Judaica (Ari)]

ok, sorry to clog the inboxes with one more thread.

recently there was a thread dealing with trop in siddurim. i was
recently working with a wonderful minhag polin mahzor published for
hannover and altona jews (altona, 1804). it contained trop, but iirc
only for taamei kaf aleph and not embedded text. one thing that caught
my eye is baruch shem kevod had trop

merkha tipha etnahta merkha tipha siluk

not what i expected



kol tuv,

ari

[Aryeh Moshen]

I don't think that it makes any sense.

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[AMK Judaica]

ARYEH:
 
what doesn't make sense? trop in the siddur? trop only for kaf alef? trop for barukh shem kevod in general? the strange trop string assigned to it? etc.? or me personally?

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:18:20 -0800
From: aryeh...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [leining] barukh shem kevod with trop
To: lei...@googlegroups.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+u...@googlegroups.com.

[AMK Judaica]

ARYEH:
 
i will assume it is nothing personal and it is the specific trop that makes no sense.
i agreed.
i had an idea of what trop i would have used, but now that i think about it i realize i'm not even sure exactly how to translae the sentence, and hence depending on the translation there is more than one trop option.
but definately no etnahta at kevod
 
kol tuv,
ari

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Dec 28, 2:53 pm, AMK Judaica <amkjuda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ARYEH:
>
> i will assume it is nothing personal and it is the specific trop that makes no sense.
> i agreed.
> i had an idea of what trop i would have used, but now that i think about it i realize i'm not even sure exactly how to translae the sentence, and hence depending on the translation there is more than one trop option.
> but definately no etnahta at kevod

If we translate literally word for word, this trop sequence makes no
sense. But perhaps "kevod" is not the usual smichus noun kevod-
malchuso, meaning "the glory of His majesty". Perhaps kevod is a
poetic form of adjective meaning glorious. Shem kevodo is His glorious
Name. Now this parsing makes sense. Baruch Shem kevod; Malchuso leolam
voed. Blessed is His glorious Name; His majesty is everlasting.

GEK

[Aryeh Moshen]

Yes.  Sorry if I left room for any confusion.  ArtScroll and others seem to be very close to your interpretation.  You might want to check out the Targum Yonathan at Shma who has a different interpretation.  If anything, I would put a tvir under Baruch, Mercha under Shem a dash between kvod-Malchuto and a Tipcha under it; followed by Mercha Sof Pasuk.  Any thoughts? 

[Shmuel Rabin]

Under regular circumstances Kvod-Malchuto is too long to be hyphenated. My sequence would be revia, tevir, mercha, tipcha, mercha, sof pasuk.

 

Shmuel Rabin

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+u...@googlegroups.com.

[Aryeh Moshen]

I could go with that.

[MG]

"Now this parsing makes sense. Baruch Shem kevod; Malchuso leolam
voed. Blessed is His glorious Name; His majesty is everlasting."

That still won't work for the trup indicated earlier. Kvod is a
"short" word and shem is clearly more related to it than to "baruch",
even according to your "poetic" understanding of this verse. It would
have to be tipcha, munach, etnachta. You could not have a tipcha at
"shem" before a short word like "k'vod".




On Dec 29, 9:27 am, "Giorgies E. Kepipesiom" <kepipes...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Dec 29, 10:48 am, MG <markginsb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Now this parsing makes sense. Baruch Shem kevod; Malchuso leolam
> voed. Blessed is His glorious Name; His majesty is everlasting."
>
> That still won't work for the trup indicated earlier.  Kvod is a
> "short" word and shem is clearly more related to it than to "baruch",
> even according to your "poetic" understanding of this verse.  It would
> have to be tipcha, munach, etnachta.  You could not have a tipcha at
> "shem" before a short word like "k'vod".

Ordinarily, one would not have a tipcha here. But ordinarily, one
would not have trops in non-miqra text. So this is a non-ordinary
sequence of trop, for a non-ordinary situation. Ofttime, by the way,
we find tipchas that are pauses musically, but not syntactically. And
here, even teh musical pause is not heard, as baruch shem has to be
recited silently.

Now that I come to mention it - how silently does it have to be said?
This phrase has a bays a vays, a dolid, a vov, and another dolid. If
said really silently (whispering, with no voice), the bays becomes a
pay, the vays becomes a fay, the dolids become tovs, and the vov as we
are wont to (perhaps incorrectly) pronounce it becomes a fay.

GEK

[AMK Judaica]

GEK:

 
"Ofttime, by the way, we find tipchas that are pauses musically, but not syntactically."
 

strictly speaking these should have been merchas, but they become tipchas for musical reasons.
 
kol tuv,
ari

[MG]

Look, either we agree that trup can apply to a non-miqra context or it
doesn't. Since you were the one who wanted to justify that very odd
trup sequence by twisting around a word in semichut form in order to
conform to rules, I think you should agree that the correct rules need
apply. You can't say, this indeed can take trup, but since it's non-
miqra, we can disregard the rules. Otherwise, leave the word kvod as
semichut, and put the etnachta there anyway, if there are no rules.

Personally I think everything in the liturgy, brachot, tefillot, even
non-miqra, can and should have trup apply. Breuer says this as well
at the end of his book. R"Y Kaminetsky applies trup parsing to the
amidah to justfy saying Morid "Hageshem" vs. "Hagashem". Punctuation
is one of the trup functions, it should apply everywhere.



On Dec 29, 6:51 pm, "Giorgies E. Kepipesiom" <kepipes...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

MG:
«Look, either we agree that trup can apply to a non-miqra context or it doesn't.»

For some reason there are sources - perhaps al pi nistar - that oppose using trop for the Targum. I'm not clear as to why. Perhaps so as not to confuse it with Miqra?

Shalom and Regards, RRW

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Dec 29, 10:20 pm, MG <markginsb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Look, either we agree that trup can apply to a non-miqra context or it
> doesn't.  Since you were the one who wanted to justify that very odd
> trup sequence by twisting around a word in semichut form in order to
> conform to rules, I think you should agree that the correct rules need
> apply.  You can't say, this indeed can take trup, but since it's non-
> miqra, we can disregard the rules.  Otherwise, leave the word kvod as
> semichut, and put the etnachta there anyway, if there are no rules.

I think I may have misled you as to the point I was making. All I am
saying is that the parsing suggested by the trop in the OP's siddhur
is a possible rendering of the meaning of this phrase, though some
slight license is required. I was certainly not "justifying" the trop,
or even the very idea of using trop to indicate the proper parsing of
the text. And yes, I do agree that the tropist made a poor job of it.
Personally, I cannot recall ever seeing trop used for non-Miqra text,
with the sole exception of the bracha preceding the chanting of
haftara.

> Personally I think everything in the liturgy, brachot, tefillot, even
> non-miqra, can and should have trup apply.  Breuer says this as well
> at the end of his book.  R"Y Kaminetsky applies trup parsing to the
> amidah to justfy saying Morid "Hageshem" vs. "Hagashem".  Punctuation
> is one of the trup functions, it should apply everywhere.

You are entitled to your personal opinion. Personally, I don't agree.
Now Ravs Breuer and Kaminetzky alayhem hasholom are certainly mposing
authorities. But they arrive on the scene in 20th Century. Five
centuries of printers, and rabbonim and kehillos who commissioned the
printings, did not think trop was needed; often not even in miqra
passages, and certainly not in non-miqra. Even nequdos were a later
innovation. And only in miqra. Talmud, Midrashim, works of geonim,
rishonim, acharonim, and any other rabbinic literature never had
nequdos until very very recently. And even then, in a small minority
of editions of a small number of works.

Here is a thought: now that conversational Hebrew has come into vogue,
perhaps we should introduce trop ther too. Teach everybody the "rules"
of trop, just as they are taught the rules of deeqdooq, and let us all
chant our conversations in trop. On second thought, not such a good
idea, considering the awfully bad job they have done in teaching (and
learning) deeqdooq, better not have them butchering the melody the way
they do the grammar.

GEK
whishing everyone a very good Shabbos.

[Giorgies E. Kepipesiom]

On Dec 29, 10:31 pm, "R. Rich Wolpoe" <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> MG:
> «Look, either we agree that trup can apply to a non-miqra context or it doesn't.»
>
> For some reason there are sources - perhaps al pi nistar - that oppose using trop for the Targum. I'm not clear as to why.  Perhaps so as not to confuse it with Miqra?

Where are these sources. Indeed most people do not read the targum
with trop, but I never heard that there was actual "opposition" to
doing so. In fact my Uncle Leib, when maavering the sidra, would often
read the Targum in trop similar to what appeared in the corresponding
sh'nayyim miqra. He did, however, say that this was "his thing", and I
did not need to do likewise.

GEK

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

«Where are these sources.»

Good question I'll take another look around


«Indeed most people do not read the targum

with trop, but I never heard that there was actual "opposition" to
doing so. In fact my Uncle Leib, when maavering the sidra, would often

read the Targum in trop similar to what appeared in the corresponding sh'nayyim miqra. »

I used to use this technique as part of my leining preparation i.e. I would practice the trop on the targum in a way similar to using the Tiqqun. I don't anymore

Let me see if I can locate the source.



Shalom and Regards, RRW

[AMK Judaica]

I'd like to see sources opposing trop on targum. This was standard fare back in the day. You see trop in targum manuscripts--I don't recall if it was standard, but it was certainly commonplace (I've seen many examples with my own eyes)--as well as in the early printed editions (including early mikraot gedolot). The question I've always had is how close does the Targum's trop correspond to the Torah's, but I never followed up.
 
As far as other non-mikra texts, mishnah had trop as did other later rabbinic texts. There is a long artice about this I think in Sinai. I specifically remember that it was common in Saadia Gaon's works.
 
As MG noted, R. Breuer discusses non-mikra trop at the end of his Taamei ha-Mikra book. In one of Michael Perlman's trop books (I think the teacher's guide for the student workbook) he makes a big deal out of incorporating trop/parsing in non-mikra tefillah and berachot into classroom instruction.
shabbat shalom,

ari

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

 

> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: barukh shem kevod with trop

> To: lei...@googlegroups.com
> From: rabbiri...@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 04:43:39 +0000

[AMK Judaica]

A while ago I started leining the first paragraph of Friday night kiddush, mostly to expose my son to it. I wanted to assign trop to the second paragraph, but never got around to it.
 
kol tuv,

ari

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

 

---

From: amkju...@hotmail.com
To: lei...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [leining] Re: barukh shem kevod with trop
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 00:24:43 -0500

[MG]

>> You see trop in targum manuscripts--I don't recall if it was standard, but it was certainly commonplace (I've seen many examples with my own eyes)--as well as in the early printed editions (including early mikraot gedolot). <<

I've seen these too and would love to see the source for not having
Trup on Targum. Many printed editions do have trup.

>> As far as other non-mikra texts, mishnah had trop as did other later rabbinic texts <<

I have heard this as well...in fact I once heard that when the gemara
says "Chasurei Mechsera vHachi KaTani" the Gemara "knew" that the
Mishna was missing words because the so-called "trup" was off, and the
missing words complete the required parsing.

On Dec 30, 12:24 am, AMK Judaica <amkjuda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'd like to see sources opposing trop on targum. This was standard fare back in the day. You see trop in targum manuscripts--I don't recall if it was standard, but it was certainly commonplace (I've seen many examples with my own eyes)--as well as in the early printed editions (including early mikraot gedolot). The question I've always had is how close does the Targum's trop correspond to the Torah's, but I never followed up.
>
> As far as other non-mikra texts, mishnah had trop as did other later rabbinic texts. There is a long artice about this I think in Sinai. I specifically remember that it was common in Saadia Gaon's works.
>
> As MG noted, R. Breuer discusses non-mikra trop at the end of his Taamei ha-Mikra book. In one of Michael Perlman's trop books (I think the teacher's guide for the student workbook) he makes a big deal out of incorporating trop/parsing in non-mikra tefillah and berachot into classroom instruction.
> shabbat shalom,
> ari
>
> Ari Kinsberg
> MA, PharmD, RPh
> Brooklyn, New York
> **************
>
> Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.
>
>
>
> > Subject: Re: [leining] Re: barukh shem kevod with trop
> > To: lei...@googlegroups.com

> > From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com

> > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 04:43:39 +0000
>
> > «Where are these sources.»
>
> > Good question I'll take another look around
>
> > «Indeed most people do not read the targum
> > with trop, but I never heard that there was actual "opposition" to
> > doing so. In fact my Uncle Leib, when maavering the sidra, would often
> > read the Targum in trop similar to what appeared in the corresponding sh'nayyim miqra. »
>
> > I used to use this technique as part of my leining preparation i.e. I would practice the trop on the targum in a way similar to using the Tiqqun. I don't anymore
>
> > Let me see if I can locate the source.
>
> > Shalom and Regards, RRW
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leining" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to lei...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to leining+u...@googlegroups.com.

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/leining?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[MG]

We can all agree that trup isn't only about public chanting.
Otherwise it wouldn't exist in those places in Tanakh that are never
read in public. There is a punctuation function. And just because it
wasn't printed means nothing...as you yourself say, the nekudos
weren't printed either, but they were always "there" in the sense that
one needs vowels to read words, regardless of whether they are in the
text. Likewise, one needs punctuation. Whether they are printed or
not is not relevant; when you read the words you are parsing them.
This has nothing to do with singing.


On Dec 29, 11:22 pm, "Giorgies E. Kepipesiom" <kepipes...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[AMK Judaica]

there is a musical reason even aside from the need for public chanting. in an age when book ownership was very rare, singing/chanting of longer texts was a memory aid. (think homer, lehavdil)

 
kol tuv,
ari

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

 

> Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 05:03:39 -0800
> Subject: [leining] Re: barukh shem kevod with trop
> From: markgi...@yahoo.com
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[AMK Judaica]

I have *seen* mishnah texts as well. there is one early printed edition of a gemara in which the printer states that he wished to restore the its original glory by inserting the trop in the mishnah. but it is partial trop (as with babylonian trop, iirc, it only has mafsikim, and in this early printed edition iirc only the stronger mafsikim; personally i suspect that originally all texts only had the major mafsikim and then became more complex as time progressed?). only one masechet of this printed edition appeared and iirc (but could be wrong here) the trop doesn't even appear in all the mishnayot in this masechet
 
iirc there are also examples of mishnah with eretz yisrael trop from the cairo (and leningrad?) geniza. these i've only see references to in the literature, and perhaps also pictures, but i don't recall anymore.
 
there is also an early modern reference (in me'or einayim?) to kids learning mishna with trop

there is also an explanation in yachin u-boaz that refers to trop in mishnah (don't recall offhand which masechet, just that it was toward the beginning.
 
shabat shalom,

ari

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

The objection to trop on Targum was as I vaguely recall about chanting the trop during sh'nayim miqra v'echad Targun

AFAICT It never objected to pointing the text with trop for phrasing purposes.

Let me see if I can find the source

Conversely can anyone fine a source suggesting chanting the targum to a trop?
Shalom and Regards, RRW

[AMK Judaica]

i'm not sure if this will work, but i've attached an image of the relevant from the mahzor in question. (some may be interested also the side note, although unrelated to the trop of baruch shem in the text)
 
shavuah tov,

ari


Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

 

> Subject: Re: [leining] Re: barukh shem kevod with trop
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com
> From: rabbiri...@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:37:19 +0000

[Poppers, Michael]

In digest "[leining] Digest for lei...@googlegroups.com - 15 Messages in 2 Topics" (30 Dec 2011), Mark Ginsberg wrote:
> ...I once heard that when the gemara says "Chasurei Mechsera vHachi KaTani" the Gemara "knew" that the Mishna was missing words because the so-called "trup" was off, and the missing words complete the required parsing. <
IINM, a recent Seforim-'blog post (http://seforim.blogspot.com/2011/12/chanukah-omission.html ) listed some other understandings of "chisurei mechsera" -- enjoy!

All the best from
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

Russell:

«JEREMY: 1st) I disagree with you that it is not a leining question. I hold that the halachic requirement to "read shma" is to read it with
trope (In fact I hold that trop were handed in Sinai (yes I know there are two opinions) »

Yes M'chabeir says to do it, and Rema says that m'daqd'qim do it....

Q: Where is there a Talmudic source that requires Taamei Miqra for Q'rias Sh'ma? EG Does the Rambam insist upon it? I suspect it's "minhag" though I do support it ...


--------------------

I would personally recommend that everyone lein it in unison. Not so much for Halachic reasons, but rather for pedagogical ones. I'm on a campaign to raise "Taamei Miqra literacy"

I wish to see children master EG "meircha tipchah" about as well as they master "aleph-beis[t]".


Shalom and Regards, RRW

[Art Werschulz]

Hi.

On Jan 1, 2012, at 4:02 PM, R. Rich Wolpoe wrote:

> I would personally recommend that everyone lein it in unison. Not so much for Halachic reasons, but rather for pedagogical ones. I'm on a campaign to raise "Taamei Miqra literacy"
>
> I wish to see children master EG "meircha tipchah" about as well as they master "aleph-beis[t]".

Hear hear!!

Unfortunately, in most of the shuls where I've heard q'riyat sh'ma leined in unison, the accuracy has left something to be desired. The biggest problems that I notice:
(1) The same tune is used for "b'chol l'vav'cha" as for "u'vchol naf'sh'cha".
(2) There's a larger pause after the t'vir in "m'tzav'cha" than there is after the tip'cha in "hayom". (Maybe this is because t'vir has a fancier tune than the tip'cha, even though it's not as disjunctive a mafsiq.)

Question to consider: It's natural to pause more after a fancier note. So why do the lesser mafsiqim sound fancier?

Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y?
Internet: agw STRUDEL comcast.net

[R. Rich Wolpoe]

«Unfortunately, in most of the shuls where I've heard q'riyat sh'ma leined in unison, the accuracy has left something to be desired.»

Maybe do this in school first
It may take about a generation




Shalom and Regards, RRW

[AMK Judaica]

ART:
 
good question, always wondered myself. perhaps so the lower level trops don't feel bad? :)
 
re. the tevir, that is a pet peeve of mine. a student is leining next week for his bar mitzva. i've done my best to drill into him to take a deep breath before a tevir (or the mesharet of the tevir) so that he not forced to make that naturally-occuring long pause after it.

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

 

> Subject: Re: [leining] barukh shem kevod with trop
> From: a...@comcast.net
> Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 18:16:40 -0500
> To: lei...@googlegroups.com

[AMK Judaica]

RRW:
 
agree. for most the battle is lost already in pre-school.
 
shavuah tov,
ari

Ari Kinsberg
MA, PharmD, RPh
Brooklyn, New York
**************

Click here to register as a bone marrow donor. It's the easiest way to save a child's life.

 

> Subject: Re: [leining] barukh shem kevod with trop

> To: lei...@googlegroups.com
> From: rabbiri...@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 23:22:16 +0000