So, KFA DC: Saturday, November 21st, at Bethesda-Chevy Chase High School:
http://kinkforall.pbworks.com/KinkForAllWashingtonDC#DateandTime
Please help spread the word!
Cheers,
-Nikolas
I was waiting to hear from you about coming to pick up the money, I
don't have the time to deliver it to you. Your comment, combined with
responding to my earlier email off list makes me look unresponsive. I
don't mind that the funds I raised are now going to an event that is
very different to the one I envisaged, but I am not personally willing
to put my energy into it. The two locations I proposed were rejected
due to a lack of metro access but a High School? It just seems like a
disaster waiting to happen, one that may have repercussions beyond
kinkforall - for the broader DC scene. I hope I'm wrong. Give me a
call to schedule a convenient time.
Paul.
703-873-7007
www.britishluckypaul.com
> I am, frankly, frustrated that you're only now voicing concerns
> about the venue (particularly with how strongly you seem to feel).
I'll second this. Paul, can you tell us more about why you're
concerned about a high school as a venue? Did you also have problems
with the idea that Amy proposed earlier about using a University as a
venue? If so, I don't recall hearing your objections to that venue on
this list. Can you point me at where you expressed them? Thanks. :)
> I am a bit worried about a KinkForAll in a public building
> (particularly a school) producing an uproar, but I also feel that it
> is a good location overall and that it will likely work. I've been
> very up-front with everyone I've discussed hosting this event with,
> including the people at the Montgomery County Community Use of
> Public Facilities Program.
>
> -Nikolas
Yeah, I think we're definitely pushing the envelope with holding a
KinkForAll event at a high school, but we did the same thing with
holding KinkForAll Boston at a University, and that went superbly and
I feel it complimented the educational intent of KinkForAll very
nicely. I believe a high school would similarly match the educational
intent of KinkForAll events. They are, after all, about information
and education, and schools—of all stripes—are institutions of
learning, right?
I wonder, do some people feel that a high school is less appropriate
than a university? If so, why?
Thanks again for everyone's contributions and continuing participation
in these extremely important discussions.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
Volunteering: http://ConversioVirium.org/author/maymay
> 2) How closed off is the event? For example, will teenagers who are
> at school on weekends for a meet be able to drop in unintentionally?
If we share the understanding that a KinkForAll "is free and open to
the public," and that its goals are to be "accessible to all", do you
think it's inappropriate for teenagers to participate at a KinkForAll
event? I believe we've had teenagers participating at previous events,
although I'm uncertain if they were legally minors. Even if they were,
though, TTBOMK, nothing that happened at a past KinkForAll event was
illegal for minors to be a part of.
> 3) If someone under 18 were to want to attend, would that be
> appropriate for this event (we have had a previous discussion about
> this... with mixed opinions).
Again, I am wondering what people think about this question in
conjunction with the ideal that KinkForAll is "free and open to the
public" and strives to be "accessible to all." Would you consider
excluding minors from an event like that to be in keeping with the the
KinkForAll principle of openness? If so, can you explain why? I'm
curious to hear opinions on this.
> 4) If this does become an issue (i.e. parents get wind of it, etc.)
> how would it be dealt with?
Now *this* is a really tough, and very *do-able* question! :) (That
is, a question that brings up stuff we can start to *do* things about;
prepare for; as per do-ocracy.)
> To answer the question put forth by maymay, I do think that there is
> a major psychological difference between a University and a High
> School... both for the public and attendees. I suspect that
> anything, even if only by association, that threatens the 18 year
> old legal barrier is somewhat volatile. Whether this is right or
> wrong, I think that we can expect to hear more about this. It was
> only about 5 years ago that protesters and media showed up to a kink
> event here in MD... so this isn't entirely outside the realm of
> possibility. The whole "they are coming for our children" argument
> certainly has been used with great effect in the past...
That makes a lot of sense, Chris. Since I don't know about this
previous event in Maryland, can you tell me more about what the event
was like that people used the "they are coming for our children"
tactic against? What kind of event was it? Was it similar to
KinkForAll? If so, in what ways? Was it different from KinkForAll? If
so, in what ways?
Also, how much do you think the public perception of the event that
was protested had to do with the protest itself? Do you think that
changing public perception (and perhaps also misconception?) about
what "kind of event" KinkForAll is would help us deal with the
possibility of protests?
> All this being said, I don't think that this should necessarily mean
> that we can't do it. I just think that we will need to be
> comfortable answering these questions. Finally, I wanted to add to
> Nikolas that you have done a great job of looking at all the
> options, and I'm impressed by all the work you have done... so thank
> you!
>
> That's just my two cents...
> Chris
Me three! Nikolas has been incredible. Can we clone him? :)
Even if they were,though, TTBOMK, nothing that happened at a past KinkForAll event was
illegal for minors to be a part of.
Again, I am wondering what people think about this question inconjunction with the ideal that KinkForAll is "free and open to the
public" and strives to be "accessible to all."
> 4) If this does become an issue (i.e. parents get wind of it, etc.)Now *this* is a really tough, and very *do-able* question! :) (That
> how would it be dealt with?
is, a question that brings up stuff we can start to *do* things about;
prepare for; as per do-ocracy.)
> It was only about 5 years ago that protesters and media showed up to a kink
> event here in MD... so this isn't entirely outside the realm of possibility.
> A final note is that it is possible to state, as part of the event
> description, that it is intended for people over 18 (even if it
> isn't enforced through any mechanism).
We could certainly state that, but I wonder: is KinkForAll intended
only for people over 18? Do *you* think so? If so, why? I asked this
before, too:[0]
> > 2) How closed off is the event? For example, will teenagers who are
> > at school on weekends for a meet be able to drop in unintentionally?
>
> If we share the understanding that a KinkForAll "is free and open to
> the public," and that its goals are to be "accessible to all", do you
> think it's inappropriate for teenagers to participate at a KinkForAll
> event? I believe we've had teenagers participating at previous events,
> although I'm uncertain if they were legally minors. Even if they were,
> though, TTBOMK, nothing that happened at a past KinkForAll event was
> illegal for minors to be a part of.
>
> > 3) If someone under 18 were to want to attend, would that be
> > appropriate for this event (we have had a previous discussion about
> > this... with mixed opinions).
>
> Again, I am wondering what people think about this question in
> conjunction with the ideal that KinkForAll is "free and open to the
> public" and strives to be "accessible to all." Would you consider
> excluding minors from an event like that to be in keeping with the the
> KinkForAll principle of openness? If so, can you explain why? I'm
> curious to hear opinions on this.
I would like to see the questions above, including the ones Chris has
raised, thoroughly addressed before a decision to exclude people under
the age of 18 at a KinkForAll event is made.
On Sep 29, 2009, at 4:34 PM, Chris ! wrote:
> In our last discussion of this topic, that is what we ended up
> deciding for the KFA DC... but that was a while ago.
Really? Where did this discussion reach a conclusion? I remember the
discussion but do not recall a decision being made.
> I think it is possible that people who would otherwise attend will
> write the event off because of the location.
I think so, too. Chris, would you say that this isn't the case with
encouraging photography? Or with the 20 minute time limit on
presentations? Or with the no-prescheduled-presentations format of a
KinkForAll? If these other things also make it possible that people
who would otherwise attend write the event off, what distinctions do
you draw between these things and a possible age cut off such that one
of these things is okay while another isn't?
Finally, you've asked another question:
> 4) If this does become an issue (i.e. parents get wind of it, etc.)
> how would it be dealt with?
…but I'm unsure if you've offered any suggestions or thoughts on how
to deal with it yet. I asked before if you had any idea of how to deal
with this, since I have my own ideas but want to hear from others,
too. So…any suggestions, Chris?
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
Volunteering: http://ConversioVirium.org/author/maymay
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
> I think that different KinkForAll's may make perfectly valid, and
> different, decisions with respect to an age limit.
Hm. Chris, would you say that different KinkForAlls should be able to
make different decisions regarding implementing a ban on recording?
Discussions on this list have indicated unease with recording, but
have always actively encouraged it. Even KinkForAll Boston, which was
the first event to make an opt-in so-called "photo policy," (and which
I strongly disagreed with) actively encouraged people to record their
presentations. At the event itself, I saw at least 3 distinct
instances where people went from NOT wanting themselves or their
presentations recorded to ACTIVELY WANTING themselves recorded or
wishing they had been recorded. I blogged about that because it was so
amazing to see.[0]
Put another way, in your view, would you see an event that enforces a
ban on recording devices as a KinkForAll event? How do you see that as
being congruent with the many parts of the wiki and previous
discussions on this list that take the opposing view, that banning
recording is not okay at a KinkForAll?
I'm uncomfortable with the idea that individual KinkForAll events
would create arbitrary rules like this or like age limits. Rather than
create a contradicting set of global versus local concepts, which
seems confusing at best, I would rather see people create different
events of their own choosing. You're involved in another kind of kink
event called OpenKink, which if I understand it, was born out of
dissatisfaction with the format of KinkForAll, but borrows some of the
things you do like. Would a kink event that has an age limit be more
like a KinkForAll in this respect or an OpenKink gathering?
> From a theoretical standpoint, I would prefer that there be no age
> limit. From a standpoint that is cautious and seeks to minimize
> risks to an event while maximizing its "social acceptability", I can
> see an argument for excluding a small number of individuals to
> benefit a whole.
Huh. Are you saying that people at KinkForAll shouldn't take risks? Or
are you saying that explicitly excluding people is okay? This is a
very different argument than the one in which you raised an age limit
concern. KinkForAll itself is a risk. Many people said it wouldn't
work. Some people went so far as to encourage others not show up
because the lack of a ban on recording devices made it too risky for
people who are not completely out about their sexuality. And yet I
think we can all agree that so far, KinkForAll has been pretty
successful, if not wildly so. Do you think this would have been
possible if we had minimized risks instead of embracing the inherent
benefits that risk and exploration can garner?
If explicitly excluding people is okay, what makes it okay in your
mind to exclude people under 18 and not, say, feminist swingers or gay
republicans? Unless you think it's okay to exclude them, too…? Sorry
to pressure you on this, but now you're really both confusing and
concerning me.
> As maymay pointed out, these types of decisions involve striking a
> balance. The photo policy is a good example. If it were the case
> that, say, 98% of the people who would have wanted to attend
> cancelled because of this policy, would it still be a "good" policy
> even it if was fitting with the sentiment of the event? I would say
> no. There are different ways to serve group needs, and holding on
> tooth-and-nail to principles at the cost of overall benefits doesn't
> serve anyone well.
So is what you're saying is that if we would have had an event of 100
people but 98 people didn't show up because they were uncomfortable
with the concept of the event, we should change the concept? I'm
really confused about that. Aside from the fact that there has never
been an attendance problem at a KinkForAll event and in fact every
KinkForAll event that has been concerned about attendance has had
leaps and bounds more participants than at first expected (KFANYC1
expect 45, got over 200, KFA Boston expected less than 40, got more
than 80, and that includes venue confusion and a significant lack of
publicity), are you really saying that you'd rather give up the
"sentimentality," the principles of your event, for the sake of
attendance? Really?
Do other people think that KinkForAll should change its key concepts
so that we get more people in the doors? If there is disagreement
about that, I *really* want to know ASAP, because that is kind of a
major schism, isn't it?
> But that is a hypothetical situation (and a wrong one at that...
> given that people did come). The question is will this policy
> significantly influence who comes to KFA DC, and do we care if they
> don't show up.
Chris, what do you think of James Sheldon's concept about Open Space,
and the phrasing of this concept:[1]
One of the principles of open space is "whoever comes are the
right people."
> Here is my honest, but purely subjective, guess: if we have an
> event that is open to those under 18 in a high school location,
> maybe 70% of potential attendees will have misgivings. Depending on
> how we communicate about this, anywhere from 10%-60% of these people
> simply won't show. Is this a good guess? I dunno. Feel free to
> chime in with your own estimates. If most people seem to think the
> estimate should be in the 0-5% range, then I think we should put
> this issue to rest and not worry about it. If people think it is in
> the over 30% range, then I think it might be worth further discussion.
So again, I pose this question to you: if 60% of the people who are
concerned about being at a KinkForAll event in a high school wouldn't
show, do you think that these are "the right people" to be there, or
not?
Similarly, I pose this question to everyone else: if you participated
in a KinkForAll event despite or because of the prevalence of
photography, were *you* the right person to be at the event, or not?
And vice versa.
> Finally, to address the issue of what happens if we, say, get mobbed
> by angry parents, etc. First, I'm guessing that the school would
> cancel the event if that seemed likely to happen. At the very
> least, I imagine we'd get wind of it. In that case, we could: a)
> cancel, b) say hell with it and go ahead with it, c) invite them
> into the event an let them sign up for a time-slot. Speaking
> personally, I would leave immediately if there was an uproar (but I
> have personal job related reasons for not wanting to get involved).
> However, I could see any of these responses as working.
>
> Take care,
> Chris
I *really* like the idea of inviting protesters to sign up for a time
slot! What do others think of that? I think that's a fantastic way to
deal with the situation. +1 from me!
> PS; now that I think of it, my recollection of a decision that we
> would have an 18 year old cutoff for KFA DC was of an in person
> conversation between myself, Amy, and Paul... so it was not on the
> email list and therefore was not "official." If the event had
> occurred it would have been brought up again).
Ah, that's why I didn't hear anything about that. I don't want to
speak for him, but if I were in Nikolas's shoes, not having access to
the information about that hypothetical previous decision would make
me more than a little upset having had secured a venue for KFADC at a
high school. :) Would you agree that keeping a record of decision-
making processes publicly recordable and archived makes it easier for
people who want to join KinkForAll and help us out to get up-to-speed?
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
Volunteering: http://ConversioVirium.org/author/maymay
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://maybemaimed.com/2009/09/14/freeing-sexuality-information/
[1] http://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/2ae6551aadde16ce/76edcd96932816d2?lnk=gst&q=sheldon#76edcd96932816d2
Interesting. A quick google search only turns up http://openkink.org/ and http://www.facebook.com/pages/OpenKink/105843303916 , which is a neat idea, but I assume not what is being talked about?
> I hope the above is helpful...
>
> Cheers,
> -Nikolas
It is. Thanks for being so specific and transparent with everything,
Nikolas. :)
I don't see any conflict with what the KFADC venue contract with CUPF
indicates and what we are doing. Does anyone else see a conflict here?
In fact, it seems that this bit from the contract actually requires us
to remain open to minors, which I'm very happy to see:
> The User must keep the program or activity open to the public as
> required by State law, and must not discriminate on the basis of
> race, color, creed, religion, ancestry, national origin, age, sex,
> marital status, disability, or sexual orientation.
Unless, of course, minors do not count as being part of the "public",
which I have no legal insight into.
> In response to this thread, I've sent an e-mail to CUPF with a
> detailed description of KinkForAll, including links and example
> topics.
What was the "detailed description" you provided? Which links did you
send? What example topics did you cite?
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Chris ! <boko...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm still inclined to think that possible participants might have
>> questions
>> about these issues. Do y'all think that we should have an
>> explanation on
>> the wiki page? If so, how prominent should it be?
Do you think these theoretical questions that might arise in possible
participant's minds would become more prominent than they might have
been otherwise if we made such questions more prominent on the page?
Are potential problems something we want to highlight this way?
>> I'll take a stab at
>> writing text... but I'll admit that I have been pretty slow with
>> turnaround
>> lately. Maybe we should wait until we hear from CUPF, anyway.
>> Take care, and thanks again Nikolas!
>
> I think this is reasonable. I'd prefer to wait on the points I sent
> questions about until we get a reply (or at least until sometime
> next week).
I agree; it's a reasonable question, at least for us to pose, if not
to specifically highlight. I also agree that it's probably worth both
thinking through and waiting to hear the reply from CUPF before we
take action.
Chris, et. al., would you say that taking action in an attempt to
solve potential problems is more or less likely to be successful *and*
useful than taking actions to resolve problems that already actually
exist?
Cheers
> Hi Y'all,
>
> With respect to whether or how we should discuss the implications of
> the location or age limit:
>
> I honest don't know what the correct balance is.
I don't either. That said, we're (thankfully) not without guidance
with regards to things we don't really understand fully or how best to
act on. (See below.)
> By addressing the issue on the website or in otherwise in our
> materials we 1) pre-emptively frame the discussion in a way that we
> want to, 2) can prevent concerns from getting out of control or mis-
> information being spread
One of the ways in which KinkForAll events have managed to happen at
all, much less managed to happen as successfully as they have, is that
participants have been guided by a simple concept, called YAGNI,
(something that's been brought out before). It's exceptionally
powerful, but also very straightforward. It means:[0]
• Always implement things when you actually need them, never when you
just foresee that you need them.
• You already have too much to do right now. Doing more now is a very
bad thing when you already have too much to do.
• Keep it simple. If you need it, you can do it later. If you don't
need it, you won't have to do the work at all. Take that day off.
Chris, would you say that both your points 1 and 2 about pre-emptively
framing a discussion and preventing concerns from getting out of
control are things that are actually happening, or that you are merely
foreseeing (I would say fearing) would happen?
> and 3) give people the information they might need to make their own
> decisions about whether to attend.
Yeah, I also think that giving people the information they might need
to make their own decisions about whether to attend or not is a very
important thing to do. So the question I have is, do you think we're
not already doing this as well as we could be? How do you think we can
do it better?
Most if not all KinkForAll promotional text I have created and that I
have seen others create include the phrase, "free and open to the
public." Do you think rephrasing this in some way would help clarify
*who* it is open to? Do too many people have different definitions of
who "the public" is? If so, what are they? To me, "the public" is
synonymous with "all members of society," which very clearly includes
minors.
> Cons:
> It will almost certainly increase awareness of the issue, and may in
> fact make it into a bigger deal than it would otherwise. It also
> may also present a negative light on the event, because it is
> bringing forth a debate from the outset.
>
> I think that this could be further discussed if we look at some
> potential wording, and there might be a middle-ground that we think
> might emphasize the positives rather than negatives. Regardless, I
> suppose it makes sense to wait for the response from CUPF before we
> go into this further...
>
> Take care,
> Chris
I agree with this (very) strongly, as well. I think YAGNI can help us
here, too. It's obviously not in our best interest to do something
that would cause one of the cons Chris has identified to happen.
Without a response to Nikolas's email from the CUPF, I think waiting
on this and instead focusing our efforts on the massive other piles of
work we have to do, like how Jade is trying to improve the on-ramps to
the community[1], and how Nikolas is beginning to create promotional
material[2] for KFADC now that we have a venue, is the best option.
Also, would you guys agree that not acting on this yet and, for
instance, waiting for the CUPF response on this issue is what
"YAGNI" (You Aren't Gonna Need It)[0] would have us do?
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
Volunteering: http://ConversioVirium.org/author/maymay
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://kinkforall.pbworks.com/UnorganizingIntroduction#AvoidingUnnecessaryEffortYouArentGonnaNeedIt
[1] http://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/65ae704881080e3d
[2] http://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/645e61a0a0fd51d
> I received a reply from the CUPF folks earlier today. The full text
> is below, but it sounds like we're okay?
Reading the reply from the CUPF, I'm actually very relieved. It's a
pretty level-headed and extremely calm, helpful reply, AFAICT.
> I mean, "people who talk about sex" are probably a higher risk than
> "people who talk about how remaining celibate is key", but we're not
> targeting them.
Well…I wouldn't say that "people who talk about how remaining celibate
is key" is a population *less* likely to attract people that some
folks are concerned about being present. Case in point: catholic
priests.[0] Need I say more?
> I also need to point out that their reply is misleading in its
> suggestion that moving to a non-school venue would remove the
> relevant clause (re:minors, felons, and sex offenders) from our
> contract.
>
> Cheers,
> -Nikolas
Good point. This doesn't seem to be a school venue issue, it's an
overarching legal issue. In fact, one that would be extremely
interesting to talk about at a KinkForAll presentation, I think.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
Volunteering: http://ConversioVirium.org/author/maymay
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/28/sex-abuse-religion-vatican
> From the email, it sounded like there were some non-school venues
> available. Do you know if any of them seem like a possibility? It
> seems to me like it might head off some potential issues...
>
> Take care,
> Chris
Um…what? How would that head off potential issues? Specifically in
reply to:
On Oct 5, 2009, at 8:28 PM, maymay wrote:
>> I also need to point out that their reply is misleading in its
>> suggestion that moving to a non-school venue would remove the
>> relevant clause (re:minors, felons, and sex offenders) from our
>> contract.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Nikolas
>
> Good point. This doesn't seem to be a school venue issue, it's an
> overarching legal issue.
Cheers,
> To clarify, the reason why I suggested alternative venues (in
> addition to the fact that CUPF suggested them), is that my concerns
> (or unfounded fears, if you will) are that a high school location, a
> "kink" themed event, and open age policy is a volatile combination.
> Removing one of those three factors (the high school location),
> might lower the potential controversy considerably. Again, whether
> or not anything actually might happen may be less important than the
> sense of concern that it could (which, again, I am currently
> projecting because we don't have much information yet on whether I
> am accurate in this assumption).
Chris,
As a do-ocracy, if you feel this concerned about everything, I would
suggest that you secure for KinkForAll Washington DC another public
venue with better facilities, more capacity, and more accessibility
than the one Nikolas has already secured.
While your concerns are…interesting to me…since it seems that there
are a number of people who have never participated at a KinkForAll
event projecting, as you said, a whole lot of fear, uncertainty, and
doubt into this discussion, I wonder what the people who have put
effort into learning about KinkForAll by actually being present at
previous KinkForAll events think about things. I'd love to hear from
more of those people now, too.