KinkForAll transparency (was Re: [KinkForAll] KFANYC3 Planning)
maymay
> Just wondering - what are the advantages to using Google Wave for planning?
That is actually a very good question. I've moved this to a new thread because this is a very different conversation than KFANYC3 planning.
> I myself am not a Wave user, and am in fact very slow to pick up any new
> technology. I'm also a little iffy about Google Wave, especially if the
> Wave itself is nonpublic (May's e-mail seems to indicate Waves can be
> public or private). If most of the planning goes on via a private Wave,
> that means it's in an invite-only thread in an invite-only technology. New
> people may not know how to get themselves invited - or even that they need
> to do so in order to find out what's going on.
That is also actually a very good point. Email is a lowest common denominator communications platform, the ubiquitous access of which is necessary for optimal transparency.
In other words: only the rich (i.e., those who have the privilege of access as well as time to figure out the tech) have access to Google Wave.
See also: "On Facebook, Only the Rich Have Privacy" at
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/niftyc/archives/192
> I question it in part because I know that previously unknown voices have
> been INCREDIBLY helpful to past KinkForAll events. If all of the planning
> had been in Wave or something similar, we would not have been able to have
> such an outpouring of help for KinkForAll Boston when we lost the first
> venue - that came almost entirely from people who had been following on
> the mailing list, but had been silent up till then. There's no way of
> knowing whether they would have taken the extra steps to sign up for a
> Wave. I worry that this doesn't leave enough room for people to watch from
> the wings until they feel comfortable joining up.
Another good point.
Also, can I throw in the additional question: at the KFANYC3 planning meeting you all had, there were tweets asking people whether or not September 25 was a date that had major conflicts.[0]
It's fantastic that you are asking the Internet questions to gain better visibility into your planning efforts. When I reminded you all to ask the mailing list about conflicts,[1] it seems like no one actually bothered to do that. Why? (The chosen weekend was actually unusable for venue reasons in the end, but that's neither here nor there.)
As Emma said, this mailing list the canonical resource for such things and has proven to be *literally* event-saving in the past.
> That said, I really am not knowledgeable about this technology - it might
> have huge advantages over the e-mail list. Please let us know what we can
> look forward to with Wave-centric planning!
>
> Looking forward to it!
> Emma
I'll hasten to add that Google Wave is NOT a released product. It is not even a beta yet. It is a "technology preview." Although I think Google Wave is pretty cool, Emma's email raises a number of concerns I didn't even notice until now.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
Volunteering: http://ConversioVirium.org/author/maymay
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://twitter.com/stacycat/status/10302115014
http://twitter.com/viviane212/status/10303602412
[1] http://twitter.com/maymaym/status/10311712374
>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:41 AM, Viviane wrote:
>>
>>> I can also add people to the KFANYC 3 - please ping me:
>>> vivia...@gmail.com. I have 20 invites left if anyone would like me.
>>>
>>> Vivane
>>
>> Is Google Wave a public medium? If so, why not just make the waves where
>> you're talking about KFANYC3 publicly visible? :)
>>
>> Turns out, after a Google Search of my own, it turns out Waves can be
>> "public" (i.e., can be joined by any Wave user).
>>
>> http://lifehacker.com/5372853/the-first-google-wave-search-you-must-know
>>
>> Looks like people in DC already have a public KFADC planning wave. Making
>> KFANYC's wave public would remove the bottleneck of adding users manually.
>> Please do this. :D
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -maymay
>> Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
>> Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
>> Community: http://KinkForAll.org
>> Volunteering: http://ConversioVirium.org/author/maymay
>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Jack Stratton
>>> <mrjacks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Had a small meetup of people interested in (un)organizing Kink For All
>>> NYC3 and we made some serious headway. We picked a tentative date of
>>> September 25th, 2010. I contacted The Center, where the first two
>>> KFANYs were held, and heard back this morning that unfortunately they
>>> are already booked for that weekend.
>>>
>>> There were six of us, so that seems like a good start. With September
>>> as a goal I think we can plan things out far in advance and really get
>>> all the WiFi and other issues ironed out. We are hoping to get numbers
>>> close to the first KFANYC with a streaming video like KFAPVD.
>>>
>>> We are also looking into space at a variety of Manhattan colleges.
>>> Some of us have connections at different schools and so we will be
>>> looking around and getting some prices and information.
>>>
>>> The key things to look for being:
>>>
>>> - Good stable WiFi
>>> - Low price
>>> - Close to midtown or downtown Manhattan
>>> - 3+ rooms each able to hold 50+ people with a large room that can
>>> hold upwards of 200
>>> - A venue comfortable handling an event that will include adult
>>> discussion and may include demos
>>> - Not having to sign in with ID is a plus
>>>
>>> Other locations we are looking into:
>>>
>>> Columbia University
>>> Various CUNY schools including BMCC and Barouch College
>>> NYU
>>>
>>> Other options might be art spaces, theatre spaces, Harvey Milk HS?
>>>
>>> Free spaces would be ideal, but that doesn't seem likely.
>>>
>>> We are also doing some discussion of KFANYC3 on Google Wave. If you
>>> would like to be added to the Wave please let me know at
>>> mrjacks...@gmail.com. I also have Wave invites for those who want/
>>> need them.
>>>
>>> Later today I plan on setting up a donation button. Just trying to
>>> figure out exactly which PayPal account to use.
>>>
>>> --
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>>> Visit and contribute to the KinkForAll wiki at
>>> http://KinkForAll.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thanks,
>>> Viviane
>>>
>>> ==========================
>>> Viviane's Sex Carnival
>>> http://www.thesexcarnival.com
>>> email: vivia...@gmail.com
>>> Twitter:viviane212
>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/viviane212
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>
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>
>
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> http://KinkForAll.org
Sara Eileen
I wanted to pull out just a bit of this - since I am only a casual Wave user, I have very little opinion on it as a planning medium at this point.
Also, can I throw in the additional question: at the KFANYC3 planning meeting you all had, there were tweets asking people whether or not September 25 was a date that had major conflicts.[0]
It's fantastic that you are asking the Internet questions to gain better visibility into your planning efforts. When I reminded you all to ask the mailing list about conflicts,[1] it seems like no one actually bothered to do that. Why? (The chosen weekend was actually unusable for venue reasons in the end, but that's neither here nor there.)
As Emma said, this mailing list the canonical resource for such things and has proven to be *literally* event-saving in the past.
In this particular case, the folks who were at the meetup (myself included) were discussing a lot of different possibilities for KFANYC3, and chose to do some preliminary legwork (because legwork is always good, and takes time.)
This is not a case in which folks wish or intend to be less that transparent - it just happened to turn out that way through the timing of different mediums of communication. In this case, a few people chose to move on their individual networks first and write to the list for discussion second.
I don't think that this is an issue - working transparently requires a learning process for a lot of us, myself included. I could personally have provided a bit more guidance on getting the conversation online, and chose not to. (Mea culpa.) Nothing's been decided yet, and it will take a bit of time to get new threads going, obviously - especially during the workday.
My point is, actions are being taken with the best of intentions. Hopefully we can start some new threads about dates and venues and get another awesome event underway.
That said, please do return to the Wave discussion - it's an interesting one. :)
Sara Eileen
maymay
> My point is, actions are being taken with the best of intentions.
I don't think that was ever in question. :)
> That said, please do return to the Wave discussion - it's an interesting one
It is, indeed!
helio...@followsthesun.com
I just got a chance to read through Jack's Wave-Digest, and I have to say
I found it really difficult to follow and to pick individual points out
of. I will reiterate that I don't actually know the concrete difference
between Wave and e-mail, but I wouldn't really be happy getting an e-mail
digest every few days to pick through, either.
My money, very frankly, is on just not using Wave. It will be difficult to
get everybody who might want to be involved invited and able to see it,
and will involve a lot of people familiarizing themselves with technology
they don't already know. KFA has always been a pretty tech-savvy event,
but it's never been an event wherein you can't fully participate unless
you've got the know-how.
If there are big advantages in using Wave over E-mail, please let me know
but in my experience the only thing that keeps e-mail exchange from being
fast paced is how close people are to their computers at a given time. I
know I for one have no particular interest in learning Wave, so I will
have to be somewhat absent from the process if it remains a big part of
it, because I'll be reading through digests as they come out and I have
the time. I'm a Fuddy-Duddy about tech, but there it is - even with the
opportunity to get invited, us Fuddy-Duddies may not want to, and even if
we're not up on the new thing, we still have some useful stuff to bring. I
hope!
I am not denying that there may be advantages to Wave use. I just have no
idea what they are, and so far I've heard what it's been used for and not
why it's the best thing to use. The only reason I've currently got to
figure out Wave is to keep up with KFA NYC 3 planning, and I think I am
probably not the only person who finds that prospect a little more
daunting than welcoming.
So please let me know what makes Wave useful, because right now my answer
to Jack's question is - Nope, I think we should skip wave and keep
conversation to the mailing list, where everybody can see it as it
happens, pure and simple.
All the best,
And ready to see more planning than Meta-Planning (sorry!)
Emma
maymay
Jack wrote:[0]
On Mar 12, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Jack Stratton wrote:
> I realize Wave may not be ideal (at this point) for planning an event
> that has a need for transparency. Do people think we should not use it
> at all?
I don't see anything wrong with using any communications technology
for personal conversations, even personal conversations that have bits
of KinkForAll planning involved in them. I've used personal email and
telephone conversations to do parts of prior KinkForAll event
planning, for instance, and I don't see Wave as being that different
from those tools for individual coordination.
So the issue isn't whether someone who wants to collaborate on
planning a KinkForAll event "should" or "should not" use Wave *at
all.* I think the issue is how Wave is used to *support group
planning,* and how whatever decision-making conversations happen there
are made transparent and accessible to less technologically privileged
folks on this mailing list.
> We are using Wave for fast paced back and forth communication about
> KFANYC3, I will be posting the conversations to this list every couple
> of days and anyone can reply to things brought up on the Wave here.
> Also, as I said, I would be happy to provide anyone who wants one with
> an invite. Google isn't very timely with the delivery of invites,
> sadly.
I don't know about anyone else, but I had an incredibly frustrating
time wading through that 1,605 word long digest Jack posted, and abhor
the prospect of having to comb through something like that every
couple of days.
The way I see it, Wave is intended as a group communications tool, and
yet not everyone in the group (i.e., "the public") has access to it.
Access in this case doesn't just mean "the ability to read," it but
also the ability to actively participate in the same discussion.
However, Wave fails in that consideration *because* it is "Shiny" and
elite.
As I have access to the Wave, I've seen some discussion about
embedding that wave ("thread") on a Wiki page. Cool if that actually
works, but once again, it doesn't address the issues of
A) Requiring an invite (which apparently "Google isn't very timely
with.")
B) The cognitive expense of figuring out WTF Wave is for
technologically unprivileged people, even if they get an invite.
C) The addition of manual effort by one of the Wavers to maintain
parity with this mailing list
I've addressed items A and B, but item C is the one I think might be
most important:
Personally, I grok and like Wave. It's pretty and useful and highly
collaborative—for the people who have access. I would totally
participate in small-scale discussions as part of a Wave, and I would
address the issues Emma raised with these ongoing actions:
1) Treat Wave like a chat room, not a digest: Rather than making
decisions there, convene a conversation about the issue, and then
write a summary in email and send it to this list before making a
decision so that those without wave have ample time to offer their own
contributions.
2) Prioritize discussion on this mailing list over discussion in a
Wave: when someone initiates a discussion on this mailing list, timely
responses should come to this mailing list, not be stalled by a
discussion in a wave that the initiator of the discussion doesn't have
access to.
I think that these two things would obviate the need for someone to
copy-and-paste digests from Wave, a task which seems symptomatic of a
process that is inherently inaccessible to all. As mentioned, those
digests are hard to grok after-the-fact because they lose the real-
time collaboration and playback features that Wave has.
Although I can understand that Google Wave is New-And-Shiny, it
strikes me as an inappropriate communication tool to hold a primary
position in any community with a serious need for ubiquitous
accessibility, like this one.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
Volunteering: http://ConversioVirium.org/author/maymay
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/46a9fc0b79190bb1#msg_f573fbe8e6e8777b
Jack Stratton
asking. Unfortunately a pro/con wave debate is very time consuming and
I think energies would be better spent planing KFAs :)
(I say this because I am having said debates in my office as well and
they are not fun, though they are interesting)
That being said I, personally, like the switching between a back and
forth chat type conversation mixed with longer interjections and the
depositing of notes and links that Wave can achieve easily. It is like
having a mailing list, twitter, email and chat all tied together in
one page. BUT I also understand the fact that not everyone has wave,
not everyone want to use wave and not everyone (certain not me!)
understands how to use wave in an effective manner yet.
Doing all of that on a mailing list would become cumbersome to say the
least.
So, I'm going to stop using the wave for now and suggest that others
do as well. For the record, I didn't start the KFANYC3 wave, Viviane
did, but I do like using it a lot and I felt it was a very valuable
tool in organizing, especially with a medium (10-20) number of people.
In the future, if it is both open to everyone and easier to figure out
it might become a tool as invaluable as a wiki.
Would it be possible to set up a page on the wiki that we could use
like a wave? You could make a comment, post notes from a meeting, have
a back and forth with someone and have it all separated by a hard
line? You can easily go into a page, edit it, add a comment and then
close it up by adding a horizontal rule and then the next person can
reply to that or add a new comment.
maymay
> Doing all of that on a mailing list would become cumbersome to say the
> least.
Sorry, doing all of what? Just in case it isn't well-known, there is a wiki page about using this mailing list in an effective manner.
http://wiki.kinkforall.org/UsingTheKinkForAllMailingList
Feel free to add to it/comment on it if you've got suggestions.
> In the future, if it is both open to everyone and easier to figure out
> it might become a tool as invaluable as a wiki.
Indeed! To quote Clay Shirky, "These tools don't get socially interesting until they get technologically boring. It isn't when the shiny new tools show up that their uses start permeating society, it's when everybody is able to take them for granted."[0]
> Would it be possible to set up a page on the wiki that we could use
> like a wave? You could make a comment, post notes from a meeting, have
> a back and forth with someone and have it all separated by a hard
> line? You can easily go into a page, edit it, add a comment and then
> close it up by adding a horizontal rule and then the next person can
> reply to that or add a new comment.
That's exactly how I've been using wikis for years.[1][2] Interestingly, when I set up the technical infrastructure for KinkForAll, I opted to focus discussion on this mailing list and *not* the wiki despite my personal preference for wikis over mailing lists (which I actually don't like a lot) because, although I'm very experienced with using wikis I knew that not everyone was.
This and related technology-privilege issues have been raised a number of times before, most notably as part of the "Diversity" discussion at KinkForAll Boston.[3] People have called the "sign up" process on the wiki "too geeky," among other things. That's only one reason why signing up is not required to participate.
Anyway, using the wiki in the style Jack suggests would address item A about Wave from my list before,[4] "requiring an invite," but I'm not certain how it would address items B or C, "cognitive expense" and "mailing list parity," respectively.
Item C is almost a non-issue, as we already use a combination of wiki+mailing list to move planning forward. (See, for instance, Nikolas's recent KFADC2 updates.[5])
That leaves item B as the only potential stumbling block that I see; although it sounds like Jack and I would easily be able to use the wiki in that style, others may not. But I don't want to speak for those others, so I'll leave it to them to speak up if they have objections. As long as the mailing list is kept up-to-date (with advance updates and notifications like Nikolas is doing), I think at least trying a more wiki-based planning style is worth it if people want to do that.
Maybe create this page:
http://wiki.kinkforall.org/KinkForAllNewYorkCity3Planning
What do you guys think?
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
Volunteering: http://ConversioVirium.org/author/maymay
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://www.ted.com/talks/clay_shirky_how_cellphones_twitter_facebook_can_make_history.html
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meitar
[2] http://sexpositive.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Transitioning_versus_expanding
[3] http://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/dedd0f0a76cef9eb/a0cb95a56af86144?lnk=gst&q=a+note+about+geek+culture#a0cb95a56af86144
[4] http://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/415ee93794f25396#msg_5a444f4b773a39d5
[5] http://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/33e60193987395ec