world. They want two accounts but keep their email address private and use
the one email address. I can't give that to them because somewhere along
the line some bright spark decided to force the setup to accept unique email
addresses.
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What you have shared here is quite alot to take in. I'm going to break this down into bite size chunks to respond with my own thoughts.
Thanks for all you have done for the project Sam.
With events of recent days, it is clear that its time to move on. As a
part of transitioning, I have wanted to write an email on where I feel
the next steps for the project should be on a number of fronts, in the
hope that someone will be interested or see the value on the topic. In
a sense it's also a last word on various topics as well.
# Long term strategic projects
## Identity Unification and Centralisation
## A Joomla-wide ERP
Sam,
I will miss you. You tooke the time to teach me a lot of stuff, even though you kept joking about the uselessness of non-English languages ;)
Thanks for leaving here a last will of sorts, making hopefully people think about the present state of the project and giving important hints for the future.
This is precious.
Take care
JM
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Sam -
It is obvious from your note that you care very deeply about this project. I appreciate all the work you have done over the years. On a personal level, I have a lot of appreciation for your help when I was getting started in the Bug Squad. I'd have to say, for me, that period was the height of my satisfaction with the project and the period of time where efforts were most focused.
In response to all of the issues you raised, many of which I found myself nodding my head in agreement, others of which I felt maybe you still aren't seeing another perspective, the prevailing theme I heard you describe can be summed up in one word, and that is: direction. There is no clear direction.
Steve Jobs is often quoted as saying "focus" is one of the reasons Apple was so successful. They only tried to do a few things, but they tried to do those things very well. Everything not central to these items were eliminated so as to not distract from the mission.
A few years ago, when the project put together its Mission and Values, I objected to infusing concepts like freedom, equality, trust, community into our key values. My point was that Joomla's key values should be producing good code. http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/mission-vision-and-values.html
Today, it seems like the project is more of a social club than it is an organization focused on producing good code. In fact, it's a common call "Joomla is not just about the code" as people celebrate #jpositiv.
I believe the project has lost it's way and would do well to refocus. As a base number, it'd be interesting to see what percentage of time various members of leadership invest in primary or secondary contribution areas. My guess is, very little time is actually spent producing and sharing good code. If everyone was open and honest about it, it is likely most time, energy and passion is spent engaging with one another in crisis and debate, and even then, I doubt many of those discussions have anything to do with the code.
You've carried the torch a long time, Sam. Can't wait to see what you do next. You've learned a lot about what does and does not work. Put it to good use and I hope you are able to zone in on learning and creating good code. If you can do so, I believe your personal satisfaction will grow exponentially and you will have some pretty amazing results to show the rest of us.
Cheers.
Amy
PS - I still think you have the most amazing sense of humor.
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someone who can spend the time in a mentor role to ensure t...<br><a href="https://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general/msg/cae7ed2db2bae5cd?dmode=source&output=gplain&noredirect">Show original</a>
In response to all of the issues you raised, many of which I found myself nodding my head in agreement, others of which I felt maybe you still aren't seeing another perspective, the prevailing theme I heard you describe can be summed up in one word, and that is: direction. There is no clear direction.
someone who can spend the time in a mentor role to ensure t...<br><a href="https://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general/msg/cae7ed2db2bae5cd?dmode=source&output=gplain&noredirect">Vis original</a>
I think it would be good for the CMS communities [WordPress & Joomla!] to talk to each other more
On Saturday, December 29, 2012 10:18:50 PM UTC-8, Nick Savov wrote:Hi Sallie,
Thanks for taking the time to provide feedback! There's a lot of good
feedback in there, which I take to heart. However, I just wanted to set
the record straight on a few things, as WordPress too often gets away with
things and Joomla is often misunderstood due to our poor communication
skills (which we're actively working on :P and hope to improve drastically
for 2013 ).
I think it would be good for the CMS communities to talk to each other more, as well as doing general PR for their products. Some people do actually have expertise in multiple platforms and just say "Joomla is better for X, WordPress is better for Y, Drupal is better for Z" in a practical way, but there are others who criticize the "competition" (which I suppose we are in some senses) without ever having used it or knowing what it can or can't do. I learned enough about Joomla to conclude that it was a product that deserved my respect, but not one I had an affinity for, and I refer out any requests I get for Joomla sites.
2) Joomla 1.5 to any other Joomla version is a big migration (it's an even
bigger migration to Wordpress, by the way).
Actually, I did migrate that site to WordPress. Which was a big job, but mainly because I converted most of the content to custom post types for easier data entry on the admin side, and added event management and a lot of things the old site didn't have. The organization that owned the site decided to go WordPress even after I reported that we COULD do everything in Joomla, since Joomla had more features and extensions than I'd been aware of. The plain fact was that not enough of us knew Joomla well and everyone felt more comfortable working in WP. (I was building it, but they were all going to have to add content to it, and others after us.) Simply transferring the content to WP was easy thanks to a plugin someone developed for importing any SQL database or CSV file.However, the fact that we had a lame Joomla site wasn't the fault of Joomla. If the person who first created the site had built us a really awesome Joomla site, we would never have considered switching.
Those are the old days
without a one-click upgrader, though.
I remember hearing that such a thing was coming, and I'm glad it has. I've had to do manual upgrades of WordPress on occasion and they were not a terribly big deal, though if I'd also had to manually upgrade every one of two dozen plugins at the same time, it would have been a nuisance. But I felt intimidated about doing a manual upgrade of Joomla because it was unfamiliar to me, and even once I'd installed Akeeba backup (great tool), I wasn't sure about restoring.
Basically, every 2 years we're going to be
releasing a new major version (e.g. Joomla 3). The series will be
supported for over 4 years (there's a new leadership post coming on that
soon :)
Good to hear and possibly (heresy, I know) a better path than our three-major-upgrades-per-year cycle.
3) <pedantry>Most extensions are not commercial, but rather most
extensions are non-commercial :) ...at least those on our Joomla
Extension Directory (similar to Wordpress.org's plugin directory) are,
since we don't have a count of the number of templates (themes) which are
commercial/non-commercial.</pedantry>
I remember looking at the extension directory, but the extensions that people kept talking about seemed to be the commercial ones.
4) I agree with you that Wordpress is very extensible, but I also agree
with Sam that it doesn't offer the same level of extensibility as Joomla
does (and I might add flexibility).
Hmm. Maybe we need to define "extensibility." It could be my ignorance of Joomla, of course, and particularly of where Joomla has gone since I last actually worked with it. My understanding of "extensibility" is basically "If you are a developer, you can create a plugin to make it do anything." And developers have created plugins that do make WP do practically anything.I do suspect that, for instance, JomSocial is more mature and easier to use (at least for those who know Joomla well) than BuddyPress, though the BP team is making great strides and we are all looking forward to the 1.7 release when it will work with any theme.
5) Yes, you might need to wait a week to be sure there are new versions of
the plugins, but you might also need to wait a lot more than a week :)
There's a reason that Wordpress has the "This plugin has not been updated
in over 2 years [paraphrased]" warning on its plugin directory. And
there's a reason it has the "X number of people say it's broken" on its
plugin directory. The reason is that Wordpress suffers from the same type
of issue that Joomla does, in that developers don't update their plugins
in a week and when new version of Wordpress are released, they potentially
break things. Which leads me to the next observation...
Well, since a lot of people have developed plugins as a hobby, they end up abandoning them because they get a day job or they can't keep up with the support or whatever. So you learn to choose your plugins and your plugin devs wisely. It is one argument in favor of commercial plugins: they are more likely to be updated, because the company that makes them can afford to keep up with them.
6) Wordpress 2 to Wordpress 3 is a difficult migration for plugin
developers, correct?
Nobody in their right minds would be migrating from WordPress 2.0 to WordPress 3.0. Major versions in WP go 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, etc., though there was a big jump in there when 2.5 came out. Since then, however, we've marched steadily along. Bug fix versions get appended to that, so 3.4 was a major release but 3.4.2 was a security fix. So the upgrade was 2.9 to 3.0. Yes, a few things broke. A few things almost always break, but usually if people are using themes or plugins that are REALLY out of date, because if said theme or plugin was updated for the last version 4-6 months ago, chances are pretty good it's still compatible. So unless there's a plugin that's essentially been abandoned anyway, it will probably either be upgraded or tested with the new version soon and given a "Works with versions up to" rating.
In short, I feel that Joomla and Wordpress are experiencing the same type
of growth issues
Well, as my husband, who is a commercial software developer, likes to say "It's open source." I'm pretty sure the Drupal community experiences the same things, too. (I've heard upgrading Drupal is a nightmare, from people who are otherwise quite fond of Drupal.)
however Wordpress has done a better job, up to this
point, at communicating and managing (for one, by getting a core upgrader
a lot sooner and for another through documentation) those growth issues
within their community, at the very least the "appearance" of things.
Part of the reason its done better at communicating and managing is that a
single company drives Wordpress' direction.
Well...not 100%, but very substantially, despite taking care to make legal divisions between Automattic and the WordPress Foundation. By no means all of the WordPress core developers work for Automattic or its subsidiaries, though. I think there is some increase in efficiency. It doesn't seem (from the outside) that anyone is blocked from joining that team if they have the skills and desire to do so, but it's certainly not the same as having a completely community-run organization.On the other hand, we do have a huge community.
At Joomla things are 100% community driven and more bottom-up, rather than
top-down, than Wordpress is. I've learned to really like it that way :)
and I want it to remain that way, however a 100% community driven project
does have its natural disadvantages, which we, especially those of us who
are relative newbies to Joomla, need to identify and turn into advantages
or at least neutralize. We also have a great leadership team that's been
doing a fantastic job during my time here at Joomla, however we do need to
get better at communicating to the masses (which as I mentioned, we're
working on :).
I don't know what kinds of funds the project has, but there are such people as PR professionals who could at least provide some guidance. Actually, there's probably someone in the broader Joomla community who works in that capacity. But I'd recommend paying him or her, because it helps ensure the task gets priority.
I feel that Joomla has the best software around and its best years are
still ahead of it. I'm really excited about what the new year holds for
Joomla and especially with all the new projects that are starting to come
to fruition. I hope that Wordpress will continue to grow as well and that
we can continue to learn from each other.
I'd certainly much rather we learned from one another than exchanged insults. It will make both products better and give those of us who work building websites a clearer idea of when to recommend which platform to our clients.
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Just catching up on my email. Your post below, and the subject matter, would perhaps be better served on a different thread.
Nick's post was very relevant to this discussion.
Given the fact that he is a member of the PLT, he's someone in a position to address some of the issues Sam raised.
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a) too much talk from both sides about which system is better, with contributors not having a thorough understanding of each system (hence how reliable are the comparisons?); and
I think there are some people who will do this regardless of any facts, about everything from sports teams on down, but that shouldn't stop us from
b) not enough sharing of 'best-practices' between WordPress and Joomla! communities.For example, MVC is a huge reason to invest in the Joomla! learning curve and development of extensions, although WordPress seems to have some implementations (although I, as native now to Joomla! cannot intelligently compare and contrast each others approaches to MVC implementations). (I could mention Template Overrides too - esp. in terms of ease of migration and upgrades - which seems to leave Joomla!'s painful migrations as thing of the past (hopefully!)).
I confess I had to look up "MVC" in the Joomla documentation. It sounds both logical and complicated. The difference may be primarily one of terminology, since the basic principle seems to be the same in WordPress: your data is in one place, your function is in another place, and your design is in a third place. Though then there are arguments about how much function to build into a theme and whether you should put things like custom post types and widget areas into "functionality plugins" so that you can transfer them from theme to theme. There are places where it's pretty difficult to disentangle form and function.
Importantly, and taking a step back, neither Joomla! nor WordPress started out with the goal 'being better than the other system,' but rather, 'to develop the best open-source and CMS and platform possible.' This is a significant difference.
Goddess help us if we start defining ourselves by someone else's product.
My wish for the New Year, for both our communities, is to foster a collaborative spirit and a focus on 'best-practices and knowledge sharing' between Joomla! and WordPress.
Hear, hear.
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On this particular point, I agree with Sam when he called for the leadership to set a focus for the CMS on target audience. He's right that facilitating those discussions and setting direction at that level has to be coordinated and is a function of leadership.
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