question

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

FIRST, I would share that I am so disappointed that I could not attend the conference.,...I am certain beyond all doubt that it was as great - if not GREATER than the 9 before!!


SECOND, By any chance, has any chevre group actually written their policies -  guide book - or by laws - on what the "rules" are for their particular chevre?  Such as "we will perform Tahara EVEN if the mait will be cremated...or the opposite...We will NOT provide tahara if we are aware the mait will be cremated?    Or, questions of putting items in the casket, clothing vs shrouds....etc.

Our group would like to formulate a guidebook...so that no matter who is on the tahara team...they will be aware there are policies in place and they not have to worry "on the spot" as to what to do.  It will save those "on the spot" phone calls to David or others...

If any chevres have such a plan in place...would you mind sharing it with me so that  1) we don't have to reinvent the wheel, and 2) get some ideas we may not have thought of!!

tHANK YOU,
LAURIE

[cil...@comcast.net]

Laurie -

 

I'd love to see something like that, too. Our chevra is only a few years old, so I'm sure there are issues we haven't discussed. For example, at the conference (and it was, indeed, great) there was a session on gender differences (transgender, etc.) for which we need to be prepared.

 

Susan Barnes

------------------------------------------------
Read my mind at www.kissamezuzah.blogspot.com

 

---

From: "Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs" <bu...@yours.com>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2012 10:09:04 AM
Subject: [jewish-funerals] question

--
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[Kerry Swartz]

I think the place to start might be reviewing and/or downloading documentation from the jewish-funerals.org / Gamliel Institue website. Besides Rabbi Kelman's book (which you should buy) there are probably half a dozen tahara manuals, brochures from other Chevra's that outline things the overall group should do. David Zinner has authored a pretty definitive guide of 100 things a Chevra can/should/be prepared to do. Their website is  gold mine.

--

[stuart.kelman]

great idea. I've never seen such a manual - tho I'm sure David has!!!
stu
we missed you

On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs <bu...@yours.com> wrote:

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stuart

[Rick Light]

Laurie,

We missed you at the conference!  And, I too, would like to see what you come up with.  We have some of these policies written down, loosely organized in emails, etc., but do not have a formal manual for our Chevra.  I think that is a wonderful and useful idea.  I'll work on it (along with all the other things going on....).

Blessings,

     Rick

[Lynn Greenhough]

Dear Kerry, Laurie et al,

This is a handbook I put together in 2008, so please forgive any out-dated inaccuracies. I sifted through many iterations of Chevra Kadisha guides and manuals that I had in my collection. You – collectively or individually – are welcome to add, update and/or use this handbook as a template for all to use. Please just be so kind as to include me, as you further this work.

Warm regards to all,

Lynn Greenhough

 

---

[Rick Light]

Hi Laurie!  Yes we missed you at the conference!  

The Chevra Kadisha of Northern New Mexico (CKNNM) is just now finishing just such a book - a manual of CKNNM policies and practices.  It is not intended to include a Tahara manual, rather, it is a high-level policy guide for the chevra to help in future decision making, etc.  It is in draft form now, which I hope will be approved by the CKNNM board of directors soon.  I am happy to send that to you for your use now, or you can wait a bit and I can then send you the final approved version, which probably will be a better document that includes more people's input.  Here is the table of contents from the draft (sorry the formatting did not work here):

Introduction................................................................................................................................................................................... 3

Scope of the Chevra Kadisha......................................................................................................................................... 3

Standard Jewish Death Practices............................................................................................................................... 4

Family Member Participation in Tahara.............................................................................................................. 5

Cremation........................................................................................................................................................................................ 5

Tahara for a Non-Jewish Spouse of a Jew........................................................................................................... 5

Tahara for Transgender Jews........................................................................................................................................ 6

Appendix: An Introduction and Guide to The Handling of Jewish Dead............................... 7

     Overview of Jewish Burial Customs............................................................................................................. 7

     Who to Contact When a Jew Dies................................................................................................................... 7

     Requirements Asked of the Funeral Home for Body Preparation................................... 8

     Requirements Asked of the Funeral Home Prior to and after Tahara......................... 9

     Questions To Be Asked Of The Family....................................................................................................... 9

     Recommended Burial Shrouds..................................................................................................................... 10

     Required Personal Protective Clothing................................................................................................. 10

Please let me know if you (or anyone reading this) would like a copy of this new manual.

Best regards and blessings.  

      Rick Light

On Thursday, June 7, 2012 11:09:04 AM UTC-6, Laurie wrote:

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

I appreciate the various suggestions....
What I was actually looking for was an example of a prewritten "rules" book....a "rule" book that gives guidance to meembgerts regarding policies each chevre groups agrees to:'

For example:
1) The Mercer Community Women's Chevre" does NOT do Tahara on a mait that is known wil be cremated.
2) The chevre will not place any items in the aron along with the mait.
3) Street clothing is not be substituted for tachrichim.

Short, clear, directivers that will enable members to NOT have to nervously wonder -  on the spot - as to what their group would or would not do.  Frantic phone calls and anxious members could be eliminated if the choices of the group are spelled out and written down IN ADVANCE......

Has any group put to paper - what their policies are - policies that would answer questions - should questions arise??    Not a pamphlet that describes Chevre K...but a guide book on policies for strange, unusual, personal and other requests...... that are outside of normative chevre/Tahara practice. 

Laurie

 

[Sandy Lassen]

I would be very interested in your manual when you complete it for the Chevra Kadisha of Greater New Orleans

 

Sandy Lassen

Executive Director

Shir Chadash Conservative Congregation

3737 W. Esplanade Ave N

Metairie, Louisiana  70002

504-889-1144

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[Ilene Rubenstein]

As far as I know, my chevra has not put its policies in writing. When decisions need to be made, they are generally done via consultation between our chevra chair (no co-chairs) and our Rabbi who is  the bottom line decision maker. My sense is that this system, which so far has worked fine, allows a greater degree of flexibility to discuss questions as they arise with attention to the specific nuances of each. In the rare instances that she would not be reachable by phone, there is generally a rabbi on-call whose philosophy and sensibilities are similar to those of our community.

Theoretically though, I can see where there would be value in such a document and I would be very interested in seeing yours, Rick, as you have clearly addressed issues that we have not yet faced, but might at some point.

btw - how's your book coming?

---

From: Rick Light <rickli...@gmail.com>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 2, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

--

[libby]

We'd like a copy of the manual too. Sorry I missed the conference this year.

Libby Bottero
Eugene, ORegon

Sandy Lassen wrote:
>
> I would be very interested in your manual when you complete it for the
> Chevra Kadisha of Greater New Orleans
>
>
>
> Sandy Lassen
>
> Executive Director
>
> Shir Chadash Conservative Congregation
>
> 3737 W. Esplanade Ave N
>
> Metairie, Louisiana 70002
>
> 504-889-1144
>
>
>

> *From:* jewish-...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Light
> *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2012 12:32 PM
> *To:* jewish-...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [jewish-funerals] Re: question

>
>
>
> Hi Laurie! Yes we missed you at the conference!
>
>
>
> The Chevra Kadisha of Northern New Mexico (CKNNM) is just now
> finishing just such a book - a manual of CKNNM policies and practices.
> It is not intended to include a Tahara manual, rather, it is a
> high-level policy guide for the chevra to help in future decision
> making, etc. It is in draft form now, which I hope will be approved
> by the CKNNM board of directors soon. I am happy to send that to you
> for your use now, or you can wait a bit and I can then send you the
> final approved version, which probably will be a better document that
> includes more people's input. Here is the table of contents from the
> draft (sorry the formatting did not work here):
>
>
>
> Introduction...................................................................................................................................................................................
> 3
>
> Scope of the Chevra
> Kadisha.........................................................................................................................................
> 3
>
> Standard Jewish Death
> Practices...............................................................................................................................
> 4
>
> Family Member Participation in

> /Tahara/..............................................................................................................
> 5
>
> Cremation........................................................................................................................................................................................
> 5
>
> /Tahara/ for a Non-Jewish Spouse of a
> Jew...........................................................................................................
> 5
>
> /Tahara/ for Transgender

> Jews........................................................................................................................................
> 6
>
> Appendix: An Introduction and Guide to The Handling of Jewish
> Dead............................... 7
>
> Overview of Jewish Burial
> Customs.............................................................................................................
> 7
>
> Who to Contact When a Jew
> Dies...................................................................................................................
> 7
>
> Requirements Asked of the Funeral Home for Body
> Preparation................................... 8
>
> Requirements Asked of the Funeral Home Prior to and after

> /Tahara/......................... 9

[Carolyn Levine]

Hi Rick,  Your manual sounds great, potentially helpful in making some difficult decisions. As a member of the Emanual Synagogue of West Hartford, CT Chevra Kadisha  we have encountered issues with clothing.  In all cases, the funeral director has briefed us on the situation, wishes of the family, etc.  And, we have dressed a mait in clothing, not something we want to do, yet feel that it is too difficult to discuss the issue during the time of mourning.  We believe that there is a need for education regarding clothing and items in the aron.  As women performing taharot, our intention is pure and most probably that of the family is pure, thus helping us to reconcile these difficult issues.  As many have said, we must educate our congregants and the Jewish public.   

Kol tuv, Carolyn Levine   caroly...@sbcglobal.net

---

From: Rick Light <rickli...@gmail.com>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tue, July 3, 2012 12:02:08 PM
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

--

[cil...@comcast.net]

We'd love to see it, too. I'm sure it would be very helpful to us, especially since we're still fairly new at this and don't always know what we don't know.

Susan

San Rafael, CA

__________
Read my blog at http://www.jewishjournal.com/religiousandreform

 

---

From: "libby" <lbot...@comcast.net>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 9:46:09 AM
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

[Kerry Swartz]

Rick,
I would very much like to have a copy of this new document. You can email it to me: kerry....@gmail.com
Many thanks in advance
Talk to you tonight (if you have to phone in),
Kerry Swartz

Rick Light

July 2, 2012 10:31 am

Hi Laurie!  Yes we missed you at the conference!  

The Chevra Kadisha of Northern New Mexico (CKNNM) is just now finishing just such a book - a manual of CKNNM policies and practices.  It is not intended to include a Tahara manual, rather, it is a high-level policy guide for the chevra to help in future decision making, etc.  It is in draft form now, which I hope will be approved by the CKNNM board of directors soon.  I am happy to send that to you for your use now, or you can wait a bit and I can then send you the final approved version, which probably will be a better document that includes more people's input.  Here is the table of contents from the draft (sorry the formatting did not work here):

Introduction................................................................................................................................................................................... 3

Scope of the Chevra Kadisha......................................................................................................................................... 3

Standard Jewish Death Practices............................................................................................................................... 4

Family Member Participation in Tahara.............................................................................................................. 5

Cremation........................................................................................................................................................................................ 5

Tahara for a Non-Jewish Spouse of a Jew........................................................................................................... 5

Tahara for Transgender Jews........................................................................................................................................ 6

Appendix: An Introduction and Guide to The Handling of Jewish Dead............................... 7

     Overview of Jewish Burial Customs............................................................................................................. 7

     Who to Contact When a Jew Dies................................................................................................................... 7

     Requirements Asked of the Funeral Home for Body Preparation................................... 8

     Requirements Asked of the Funeral Home Prior to and after Tahara......................... 9

     Questions To Be Asked Of The Family....................................................................................................... 9

     Recommended Burial Shrouds..................................................................................................................... 10

     Required Personal Protective Clothing................................................................................................. 10

Please let me know if you (or anyone reading this) would like a copy of this new manual.

Best regards and blessings.  

      Rick Light

On Thursday, June 7, 2012 11:09:04 AM UTC-6, Laurie wrote:

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Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs

June 7, 2012 10:09 am

FIRST, I would share that I am so disappointed that I could not attend the conference.,...I am certain beyond all doubt that it was as great - if not GREATER than the 9 before!!


SECOND, By any chance, has any chevre group actually written their policies -  guide book - or by laws - on what the "rules" are for their particular chevre?  Such as "we will perform Tahara EVEN if the mait will be cremated...or the opposite...We will NOT provide tahara if we are aware the mait will be cremated?    Or, questions of putting items in the casket, clothing vs shrouds....etc.

Our group would like to formulate a guidebook...so that no matter who is on the tahara team...they will be aware there are policies in place and they not have to worry "on the spot" as to what to do.  It will save those "on the spot" phone calls to David or others...

If any chevres have such a plan in place...would you mind sharing it with me so that  1) we don't have to reinvent the wheel, and 2) get some ideas we may not have thought of!!

tHANK YOU,

LAURIE --

[Louise Chatlynne]

When to do Tahara and not to do Tahara, and what requests of the relatives of the met should be acceded to even if they aren't strictly Halachic can be very tricky.  You are dealing with people under a lot of stress and the position of our Hevra has been to comply with the relatives if we can.  

We have never had a request to do a Taharah for someone we know will be cremated, but usually someone who requests creamation is not interested in Taharah.  On the other had once the body is in the coffin and given over the funeral home and their shomrim as is often the case we may not always know the ultimate fate of the met if it is not someone from our shul or the met is transported elsewhere.

On the other hand we have had very rare requests to dress them in some special clothing or include something in the aron if it is small.  In the former case we will put the clothing over the trachim.  I will never forget one of the first Tohorah I participated in of a young teen who died suddenly; her parents were traumatized.  It was the first tororah we did as a Hevra for our shul and we were led and coached by a member of the Orthodox Hevrat Nashim.She was very helpful and taught us that the comfort of the parents was very important.  The trachim provided were for a child and too small for the metah.  The parents had provided some clothes they wanted her buried in and a small teddy bear.  We had thought we could not use the clothes, but our leadeer said to go ahead and use them. In the end between the small trachim and the cloths she was modestly covered.  Our orthodox leader said we should also include the teddy bear so we did.  Ever since we have always tried to comply when it is not unreasonable.

Another time a woman asked to see her mother's face before we closed the coffin.  We had her wait in the shomer room and just before we closed the coffin we had her come in to say good-bye to her mother. It was short good-bye and gave the woman much comfort.

Be careful of too many guidelines.

Louise Chatlynne

--
Louise Chatlynne

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

Our chevre is run quite differently.  We are independent of any particular rabbi and of any shul. 
The reality is, for groups like ours, who do not have a rabbi - to first learn of a problem - most likely at the moment we arrive - and then first have to call someone - hoping to get them in,  If they are not available at that moment - then what...back to square one - still not having a decisive answer, I suppose. 

Since we are basically on our own....we need to have something in writing so that everyone can have something concrete to rely on when such issues arise.   So, this is why I am looking for a "rule" book.  While we as a group have agreed (mostly) on what we would and would not do....putting it on paper is a must to eliminate difficult times at a most difficult time.  So, if issues, terms, and such have already been consolidated and mapped out....I would appeciate NOT having to reinvent the wheel. 

Laurie

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ilene Rubenstein

Sent: 07/03/12 12:53 PM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

Rick...I missed seeing you and all at the conference.... a real missing piece to my "JUNE" plans!!!

What you describe appears to be exactly what we are looking for.  Take your time...and let me know when you are ready to share your final product!!!  I eagerly await it!!! 

Laurie 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Carolyn Levine

Sent: 07/03/12 01:06 PM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

Hi Rick,  Your manual sounds great, potentially helpful in making some difficult decisions. As a member of the Emanual Synagogue of West Hartford, CT Chevra Kadisha  we have encountered issues with clothing.  In all cases, the funeral director has briefed us on the situation, wishes of the family, etc.  And, we have dressed a mait in clothing, not something we want to do, yet feel that it is too difficult to discuss the issue during the time of mourning.  We believe that there is a need for education regarding clothing and items in the aron.  As women performing taharot, our intention is pure and most probably that of the family is pure, thus helping us to reconcile these difficult issues.  As many have said, we must educate our congregants and the Jewish public.   

Kol tuv, Carolyn Levine   caroly...@sbcglobal.net

 

From: Rick Light <rickli...@gmail.com>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tue, July 3, 2012 12:02:08 PM
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

Just to be clear.... I have requested a "rule" book - policies on what we will and will not do.   This is intirnsically different than a pamphlet or manual of "how to".

Are you interested in a manual or "rule" book???

Laurie

 

----- Original Message -----

From: cil...@comcast.net

Sent: 07/03/12 01:02 PM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

We'd love to see it, too. I'm sure it would be very helpful to us, especially since we're still fairly new at this and don't always know what we don't know.

Susan

San Rafael, CA

__________
Read my blog at http://www.jewishjournal.com/religiousandreform

 

---

From: "libby" <lbot...@comcast.net>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 9:46:09 AM

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

We'd like a copy of the manual too. Sorry I missed the conference this year.

Libby Bottero
Eugene, ORegon

Sandy Lassen wrote:
>
> I would be very interested in your manual when you complete it for the
> Chevra Kadisha of Greater New Orleans
>
>  
>
> Sandy Lassen
>
> Executive Director
>
> Shir Chadash Conservative Congregation
>
> 3737 W. Esplanade Ave N
>
> Metairie, Louisiana  70002
>
> 504-889-1144
>
>  
>
> *From:* jewish-...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Light
> *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2012 12:32 PM
> *To:* jewish-...@googlegroups.com

> *Subject:* [jewish-funerals] Re: question

>
>  
>
> Hi Laurie!  Yes we missed you at the conference!  
>
>  
>
> The Chevra Kadisha of Northern New Mexico (CKNNM) is just now
> finishing just such a book - a manual of CKNNM policies and practices.
>  It is not intended to include a Tahara manual, rather, it is a
> high-level policy guide for the chevra to help in future decision
> making, etc.  It is in draft form now, which I hope will be approved
> by the CKNNM board of directors soon.  I am happy to send that to you
> for your use now, or you can wait a bit and I can then send you the
> final approved version, which probably will be a better document that
> includes more people's input.  Here is the table of contents from the
> draft (sorry the formatting did not work here):
>
>  
>
> Introduction...................................................................................................................................................................................
> 3
>
> Scope of the Chevra
> Kadisha.........................................................................................................................................
> 3
>
> Standard Jewish Death
> Practices...............................................................................................................................
> 4
>
> Family Member Participation in

> /Tahara/..............................................................................................................
> 5
>
> Cremation........................................................................................................................................................................................
> 5
>
> /Tahara/ for a Non-Jewish Spouse of a
> Jew...........................................................................................................
> 5
>
> /Tahara/ for Transgender

> Jews........................................................................................................................................
> 6
>
> Appendix: An Introduction and Guide to The Handling of Jewish
> Dead............................... 7
>
>      Overview of Jewish Burial
> Customs.............................................................................................................
> 7
>
>      Who to Contact When a Jew
> Dies...................................................................................................................
> 7
>
>      Requirements Asked of the Funeral Home for Body
> Preparation................................... 8
>
>      Requirements Asked of the Funeral Home Prior to and after

> /Tahara/......................... 9

[Sandra Ottenberg]

Yes, I would like a copy also of the manual for congregation B’Nai Israel in Toms River

Sandy Ottenberg

sotte...@verizon.net.

 

From: jewish-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Light
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:32 PM
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

 

Hi Laurie!  Yes we missed you at the conference!  

--

[cil...@comcast.net]

Laurie -

 

You probably already know this, but just in case: Although Rick (or someone else) may be able to send you a "rule book," it would be their rules, and there is nothing that says your group would need to follow the same rules. I think it would be helpful for our group to have another group's rule book, as a jumping-off place for us to discuss things that may come up, and to talk about how we might handle those things, but I'm quite sure our rules would not be the same as Rick's group's (or some
other group's) rules.

 

I hear your insistence that your group needs a rule book to follow, and clearly you know your group better than I do. I don't feel like our group has a strong need for one, though, because our members are all empowered to do what they believe is best for the honor and wishes of the met/metah. I know some people are less comfortable than others with making these kinds of decisions.

 

Susan

__________
Read my blog at http://www.jewishjournal.com/religiousandreform

---

From: "Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs" <bu...@yours.com>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 12:48:41 PM

[Dr. Joel Etra]

I am interested in how other cemeteries are regulating interfaith sections. 

I would like to know how your bylaws define who can be buried gathered. Also, if you use the term "family unit," how that is defined. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

Susan,
Yes   -  of course -  it goes without saying that Rick's book is only going to be used as a guide....
And to clarify - to eliminate the possibility of 4 different opinions at a crucial time because each and every member has equal authority - and to quote you, "because our members are all empowered to do what they believe is best for the honor and wishes of the met/metah",...........this is not to say that there will not be 4 differing opinons!!!   Or, at worst,  2 for and 2 against.  When we are fortunate to have a rosha present - it becomes more of a moot point......But that is not always possible.

Laurie

 

----- Original Message -----

From: cil...@comcast.net

Sent: 07/03/12 07:04 PM

[Kerry Swartz]

In Victoria BC, where I serve on one of two Chevra Kadishas, the oldest Jewish cemetery is owned and managed by the local Conservative Shul, Congregation Emanu-El (also Canada's oldest continually operating synagogue - 150 years). Only Jews are buried there but that includes ones who have undergone conversion. The Chevra employs the services of a local funeral home for performing Tahara, sitting Shmira, etc. That funeral parlor also owns and operates a large memorial gardens operation and have recently established/dedicated a special Jewish section for in-ground burial to accommodate interfaith couples. This has obliged the establishment of Vancouver Island Burial Society to administer the affairs of the Jewish section in this cemetery. I have been told that Jews and interfaith couples who choose cremation can also be buried there. One of the big draws of this cemetery is that it allows non-Jewish spouses and converts to also be buried close to members of their original extended family.

Dr. Joel Etra

July 3, 2012 9:54 pm

[stuart.kelman]

We opened two new cemeteries in No CA with the same rules: 3 sections: Orthodox, Conservative and Community. In Each have different rules, but in direct answer to you question, non-Jews partnered with Jews and members of synagogues who have been involved with the synagogue can be buried in the COnservative and Community sections. 
stuart kelman

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stuart

[Kerry Swartz]

Last year the first interfaith cemetery opened in Winnipeg, Canada by the largest Conservative Shul:

http://www.shaareyzedek.mb.ca/funeral_and_cemetery/shaareyshamayim.htm

A separate section of land was selected, fenced off from the rest of the grounds and separated with trees, shrubs and sidewalks. When the Jewish spouse of an interfaith couple dies, they receive a traditional Jewish burial. When the non-Jewish spouses, the burial society contacts a local funeral home who have been trained by the Chesed Shel Emes staff in Tahara techniques. The deceased is cleansed and clothed in Tachrichim by funeral home staff but it is not considered a Tahara by the Chesed. The same caskets are used, no foreign objects or religious objects of their faith are placed in them. I do not know if the funerals are officiated by a Rabbi or alternate clergy. Their headstone must be free of any religious markings.

The plots are sold for couples, not families, although I've been told that some consideration would be made in the event of the unexpected death of a child.

Dr. Joel Etra

July 3, 2012 9:54 pm

[libby]

We have two main cemeteries that we use. The older more traditional
cemetery is for Jews only, with non-Jewish spouses buried around the
periphery. The newer cemetery is a realistic response to changing trends
of broader acceptance of interfaith families and choices for burial
and/or cremation. Jews and non-Jewish family members who are involved
with the Jewish community, raising children as Jews, and who are not
practicing another faith can be buried together in the newer cemetery.
Both Jewish sections are located in larger non-denominational
cemeteries. Some people choose to be buried in other cemeteries, or on
family land, and of course, we can do taharah anywhere.

Libby Bottero
Eugene, Oregon

stuart.kelman wrote:
> We opened two new cemeteries in No CA with the same rules: 3 sections:
> Orthodox, Conservative and Community. In Each have different rules,
> but in direct answer to you question, non-Jews partnered with Jews and
> members of synagogues who have been involved with the synagogue can be
> buried in the COnservative and Community sections.
> stuart kelman
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Dr. Joel Etra <jetr...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jetr...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I am interested in how other cemeteries are regulating interfaith
> sections.
> I would like to know how your bylaws define who can be buried
> gathered. Also, if you use the term "family unit," how that is
> defined.
>
> Dr Joel Etra

> 860.866.5508 <tel:860.866.5508>

>
> Sent from my iPad
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "jewish-funerals" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> jewish-...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com>.

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> jewish-funera...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:jewish-funerals%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

[cil...@comcast.net]

Kerry -

 

I'm curious: Why do you mention converts? I thought once a person converted to Judaism, they were considered to be the same as any other Jew.

Susan

__________
Read my blog at http://www.jewishjournal.com/religiousandreform

---

From: "Kerry Swartz" <kerry....@gmail.com>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 7:27:36 AM
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

[Lynn Greenhough]

Hi folks,

If I can jump in here – conversion is much more complicated than “considered to be the same as any other Jew.”

 

It depends on who is doing the considering. There are many questions within orthodoxy about the legitimacy of Conservative conversions never mind Reform, or otherwise. Beit din, mikvah, all learning aside, I have known individuals who have then had to re-convert within orthodoxy to be counted in a minyan, to be ‘included’ if you will. I have had former students in tears over the phone because they are bumping up against this as they date within an orthodox community. Often these conversions have happened when children are very young; they grow up in a “Jewish” home, and suddenly are not Jewish enough. Dark underbelly of conversion. As Rabbi Glazer can attest I can go on quite a rant about attitudes towards and about those who have converted to Judaism! Not now.

Warm regards to all,

Lynn

 

 

---

From: jewish-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of cil...@comcast.net

Sent: July-04-12 10:16 AM
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

[Kerry Swartz]

Susan,

My apologies. I didn't mean to be confusing. When I mentioned "converts" I was addressing the needs of those who have converted and have extended family that are not Jewish. An interfaith couple can be buried together in this memorial park's Jewish section; if the Jewish partner went through conversion, they also have the comfort - and possibly arrange for - burial of members of their extended family who are not Jewish near the Jewish section or at least in the same area.

Kerry

cil...@comcast.net

July 4, 2012 10:15 am

[cil...@comcast.net]

Kerry -

 

Thanks for the clarification!

Susan

__________
Read my blog at http://www.jewishjournal.com/religiousandreform

---

From: "Kerry Swartz" <kerry....@gmail.com>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 11:41:29 AM
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

--

[Meirah]

Dear Friends, and Fellow Hevra workers, 

It is tempting to have rule books that will give us clear answers things are unclear. I want to caution us all, however. We live in challenging Jewish times. (when have we not?) Today's challenges are different. So many Jews are tangentially connected to our people and tradition by such a thin thread. When a loved one has died, the most important Jewish value is to comfort the mourner and honor the dead. These are more important than following the "rules," and we know that the "rules" regarding burial are largely minhag---custom.It doesn't take much to offend an anxious, hurting person, and to turn them off to Judaism by simply refusing to include something in a casket, etc. etc. and lose that person forever. People who request these things do so out of love for their deceased, out of deep mourning, and out of ignorance of Jewish tradition. This is a time to teach them about the compassion embedded in Judaism, one that understand the history of the Jewish people, about why people have become so assimilated, and about welcoming when they want to do SOMETHING Jewish at the time of death. It's not a good time to teach about cremation if they have already made up their minds. I speak to you as a RECONSTRUCTIONIST rabbi, and this may affect your response to my response....but I urge you to know when to observe a rule, and when to set it aside in loving another as yourself, which is the most important rule, along with loving God. 

Rabbi Me'irah Iliinsky

On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:46:08 AM UTC-7, Susan Barnes wrote:

Laurie -

 

I'd love to see something like that, too. Our chevra is only a few years old, so I'm sure there are issues we haven't discussed. For example, at the conference (and it was, indeed, great) there was a session on gender differences (transgender, etc.) for which we need to be prepared.

 

Susan Barnes

------------------------------------------------
Read my mind at www.kissamezuzah.blogspot.com

 

---

From: "Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs" <bu...@yours.com>

To: jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2012 10:09:04 AM
Subject: [jewish-funerals] question

FIRST, I would share that I am so disappointed that I could not attend the conference.,...I am certain beyond all doubt that it was as great - if not GREATER than the 9 before!!


SECOND, By any chance, has any chevre group actually written their policies -  guide book - or by laws - on what the "rules" are for their particular chevre?  Such as "we will perform Tahara EVEN if the mait will be cremated...or the opposite...We will NOT provide tahara if we are aware the mait will be cremated?    Or, questions of putting items in the casket, clothing vs shrouds....etc.

Our group would like to formulate a guidebook...so that no matter who is on the tahara team...they will be aware there are policies in place and they not have to worry "on the spot" as to what to do.  It will save those "on the spot" phone calls to David or others...

If any chevres have such a plan in place...would you mind sharing it with me so that  1) we don't have to reinvent the wheel, and 2) get some ideas we may not have thought of!!

tHANK YOU,
LAURIE

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On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:46:08 AM UTC-7, Susan Barnes wrote:

Laurie -

 

I'd love to see something like that, too. Our chevra is only a few years old, so I'm sure there are issues we haven't discussed. For example, at the conference (and it was, indeed, great) there was a session on gender differences (transgender, etc.) for which we need to be prepared.

 

Susan Barnes

------------------------------------------------
Read my mind at www.kissamezuzah.blogspot.com

 

---

From: "Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs" <bu...@yours.com>

To: jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2012 10:09:04 AM
Subject: [jewish-funerals] question

FIRST, I would share that I am so disappointed that I could not attend the conference.,...I am certain beyond all doubt that it was as great - if not GREATER than the 9 before!!


SECOND, By any chance, has any chevre group actually written their policies -  guide book - or by laws - on what the "rules" are for their particular chevre?  Such as "we will perform Tahara EVEN if the mait will be cremated...or the opposite...We will NOT provide tahara if we are aware the mait will be cremated?    Or, questions of putting items in the casket, clothing vs shrouds....etc.

Our group would like to formulate a guidebook...so that no matter who is on the tahara team...they will be aware there are policies in place and they not have to worry "on the spot" as to what to do.  It will save those "on the spot" phone calls to David or others...

If any chevres have such a plan in place...would you mind sharing it with me so that  1) we don't have to reinvent the wheel, and 2) get some ideas we may not have thought of!!

tHANK YOU,
LAURIE

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "jewish-funerals" group.

To post to this group, send email to jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com.
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On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:46:08 AM UTC-7, Susan Barnes wrote:

Laurie -

 

I'd love to see something like that, too. Our chevra is only a few years old, so I'm sure there are issues we haven't discussed. For example, at the conference (and it was, indeed, great) there was a session on gender differences (transgender, etc.) for which we need to be prepared.

 

Susan Barnes

------------------------------------------------
Read my mind at www.kissamezuzah.blogspot.com

 

---

From: "Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs" <bu...@yours.com>

To: jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2012 10:09:04 AM
Subject: [jewish-funerals] question

FIRST, I would share that I am so disappointed that I could not attend the conference.,...I am certain beyond all doubt that it was as great - if not GREATER than the 9 before!!


SECOND, By any chance, has any chevre group actually written their policies -  guide book - or by laws - on what the "rules" are for their particular chevre?  Such as "we will perform Tahara EVEN if the mait will be cremated...or the opposite...We will NOT provide tahara if we are aware the mait will be cremated?    Or, questions of putting items in the casket, clothing vs shrouds....etc.

Our group would like to formulate a guidebook...so that no matter who is on the tahara team...they will be aware there are policies in place and they not have to worry "on the spot" as to what to do.  It will save those "on the spot" phone calls to David or others...

If any chevres have such a plan in place...would you mind sharing it with me so that  1) we don't have to reinvent the wheel, and 2) get some ideas we may not have thought of!!

tHANK YOU,
LAURIE

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "jewish-funerals" group.

To post to this group, send email to jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jewish-funerals+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Dr. Joel Etra]

I wonder a bout the need for the fake Tamara. 

Specifying "couples only" does solve a number of problems. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:27 AM, Kerry Swartz <kerry....@gmail.com> wrote:

Last year the first interfaith cemetery opened in Winnipeg, Canada by the largest Conservative Shul:

http://www.shaareyzedek.mb.ca/funeral_and_cemetery/shaareyshamayim.htm

A separate section of land was selected, fenced off from the rest of the grounds and separated with trees, shrubs and sidewalks. When the Jewish spouse of an interfaith couple dies, they receive a traditional Jewish burial. When the non-Jewish spouses, the burial society contacts a local funeral home who have been trained by the Chesed Shel Emes staff in Tahara techniques. The deceased is cleansed and clothed in Tachrichim by funeral home staff but it is not considered a Tahara by the Chesed. The same caskets are used, no foreign objects or religious objects of their faith are placed in them. I do not know if the funerals are officiated by a Rabbi or alternate clergy. Their headstone must be free of any religious markings.

The plots are sold for couples, not families, although I've been told that some consideration would be made in the event of the unexpected death of a child.

<compose-unknown-contact.jpg>

Dr. Joel Etra

July 3, 2012 9:54 pm

I am interested in how other cemeteries are regulating interfaith sections. 

I would like to know how your bylaws define who can be buried gathered. Also, if you use the term "family unit," how that is defined. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

--
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To post to this group, send email to jewish-...@googlegroups.com.
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[Melvin Glazer]

Rabbi Glazer can personally attest to that, AND Rabbi Glazer can also personally attest to the fact that Lynn has done more for Jewish life than many of us whose mothers are Jewish!

As a famous contemporary sage (you can guess who that is!) has taught us all: "we do the best we can!"

Happy 4th to the lower North Americans among us. To those in Canada, oh well...❤

Mel

Rabbi Mel Glazer

<image001.jpg>

[Deborah Brown]

Perhaps Kerry will respond to this, but I do not think it would be correct to call washing and dressing a body in shrouds a "fake tahara." I have a religiously complex family. I am more or less the leader of my chevra. If a non-Jewish member of my family dies, I would want his or her body to be tended to with honor and respect just as much as I would if it were a Jewish member of my family. I believe the members of my chevra would want to do that for me, just as they and others would want to make a shiva call or join a minyan or otherwise comfort me in my mourning (and have done so in the past.) Those things would not be "fake" because my loved one is not Jewish.  I would not consider it a tahara, nor a "fake tahara," just a tending to the body with honor and comforting me. There IS a need for that. And this would particularly be the case when that family member is buried next to me or my expected place of burial in a Jewish cemetery. Our chevra has decided that such a washing would be done without any liturgy, but I do know that someone out there - maybe he will respond to this! - is working on a liturgy to be used for someone who is not Jewish.

 

Deborah Brown

Wilmette, IL

[Kerry Swartz]

The Chesed Shel Emes in Winnipeg is a community-owned non-profit burial society that serves all streams of Judaism. It practices traditional orthodoxy (members must be Shomer Shabbat for example) but balances this against a majorly Conservative population. Of course there is a Reform congregation but I don't believe there is a significant presence of what we see of on this board; reconstructionist, highly progressive, etc.
I know that this Shul's decision to develop an interfaith section within its own cemetery was highly controversial and divisive in the rest of the community. I believe the Reena and the CSE must have found themselves at many heated and emotional meetings about how to respond and service the community. I suspect they ultimately decided to extend the rituals of care the Jewish spouse would receive to the non-Jewish spouse, all the while maintaining their traditional, orthodox roots and practices. In short, a compromise all those involved could agree with.

Deborah Brown

July 4, 2012 5:25 pm

[DANIEL LEGER]

Dear Deborah and Me’irah,

Both of your responses touched me deeply.

I think we have to remember that we have so many opportunities to come together as well as those which so often keep us apart. Our Chevra is a pluralistic one which brings many Jews from many different perspectives and practices together in the performance of this uniquely sacred work. The desire for a text containing rules would only be useful if it contained multiple values based approaches to “problems” which sometimes arise. Inevitably new circumstances will come before us which no book of rules will have addressed. As Mei’rah so eloquently pointed out, the guiding principals are clear and they must be paramount in helping us to find our response to the loss which lies before us both in the one who has died and in their family. Burying the dead and comforting the mourners are the mitzvah around which the customs have grown. As soon as the “rules” become the primary focus, we run the risk of losing sight of those goals.

My father in law was not a Jew. Knowing how he respected the practices and customs which he observed in my home with his Jewish daughter and me, I felt completely secure in modifying the act of taharah for him prior to his cremation. There was nothing false about it and there was no pretense that he was a Jew. It gave great comfort to those who understood to know that his body was treated with such kindness.

There are so many ways to stand in the presence of God. We establish our traditions and we change with them as we and our times change. That is the beauty of the Jewish way.

Daniel Leger

Pittsburgh

 

---

From: jewish-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Deborah Brown

Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 8:25 PM
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

[Dr. Joel Etra]

I have a friend who is a brilliant surgeon from Lebanon with whom I shared an office suite. One day I had made tabouli salad and proudly told him that I added chick peas. That sounds really good, he told me, but it's not tabouli salad. Tabouli salad, he said, has no chick peas. 

Tahara is all about the liturgy. Without the liturgy, it's a nice, respectful, caring thing to do; but it's not a Tahara. 

What provoked my comment by the way was the implication that in order to bury a non-Jew, in the Jewish cemetery, such a "Tahara" had to be performed. The comment was not made in the context of offering comfort to family. Rather it was implied that it was to somehow make the body fit to be buried with Jews. If that were even the case, how could washing and dressing without ritual make a difference. My chèvre does not have the power to make anyone pure; we ask God to do that. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

[Deborah Brown]

I would respectfully suggest that tahara is NOT "all about the liturgy." It is all about the kavod. Expert knots and beautiful reading of the liturgy in Hebrew without kavod is not a tahara. I agree that the chevra does not make anyone "pure," with or without the liturgy; to claim that would be a profound misunderstanding. I would also not like to claim that only Jews will meet God after death, and I think we can tend to a non-Jewish body to comfort the mourners, but also with hope for that soul, even while not believing we are somehow effecting something for that soul, but that is another discussion. I can see that people might think that burial in a Jjewish cemetery should involve tachrichim, just as it should involve a plain wood casket.

 

Deborah Brown

Wilmette, IL

[Rick Light]

Dearest Meirah, and all who have commented in this thread,

I'm so deeply touched by how many people have responded to my email about to the need for support within the Jewish community for interfaith Jewish death.  Several main points have come out in this discussion - forgive me if I missed one or two:

(1) I mentioned that the Chevra Kadisha of Northern New Mexico (CKNNM) did not have a central place where its policies and practices have been written down, and that as a result of that I am currently writing a "policy manual" for the CKNNM.  This is not a formal "rule book" - in reality, such a thing would be embodied in our Tahara manuals - but this is not that.  This is a summary of the decisions our Board of Directors has made over the last decade regarding when we will do Tahara, what choices do members of the Tahara team have when unusual circumstances arise, how do we handle specific situations, and so forth.  Having said that, our watchword - as many of you well know - is, "We do the best we can!"  So these policies are the starting point for the leader of any proposed Tahara from which that leader can then make an informed decision as to how to handle whatever case is before them.  It is not law, and definitely not halacha.  The policy manual is written to be pretty high level and to be just a reminder to us that this what we decided to do in each major arena of activity.

(2) There have been responses related to providing a "Tahara-like" ritual for non-Jewish spouses of Jews.  This, of course, is an entirely different discussion, but it relates to (1) above because how we handle that situation should be discussed ahead of time by the chevra leaders (in our case, the CKNNM Board) and a "policy" included in that book.  Just so you know, our policy is that we will do such a procedure, but we will use a different manual - that includes a different liturgy - to do a ritual that is similar to Tahara but not called Tahara, and that is specifically designed for this situation.  I've written a first draft of this manual and have various rabbis and learned teachers reviewing it.  The hope is that it will be an aid for a larger community facing this interfaith issue.  I must mention here that the CKNNM includes members from several shuls, including Chabad, modern Orthodox, Reform, Renewal, and unaffiliated (much like Conservative in their practices), and that our policies always include the caveat that if a chevra member is uncomfortable with any procedure they can simply opt out of participating in that ritual.  This is true for everything we do in the spectrum of CK work.  So some members are very active participants for regular Taharot, but opt out of the "fringe" ones, like doing Tahara for a Jew who is scheduled for cremation.

(3) I want to reiterate my support for those who mentioned that the most important thing for us is Kavod haMeit.  In CKNNM our ONLY steadfast rule is to show respect.  All other books, guides, teachings that CKNNM might use or its members receive must come second to this baseline of behavior.  So yes, we do use a Tahara manual to guide our actions in the Tahara room.  And, we try to follow it as beautifully as we can.  However, under some circumstances we have to change what we do to handle the situation at hand.  Everyone who has done Taharot understands this.  Similarly, the policy manual mentioned above is only a guide, a starting point.  I try to remind people that our goal is to midwife souls.  We don't care how others might define souls, our job is to help them across the threshold into the next world.  Others can deal with politics and semantics.  If we can help smooth the transition of a soul we will do so.  We'll do it as respectfully as we can.  If we can't do it because not enough people are available (or willing) to help, then we can't do it.  That's all.  We do the best we can.  The soul is what's important.  All the rest is just dressing.

(4) Since I've had many requests for copies of this new "policy manual" I will post it on the Kavod v'Nichum website when it is approved by the CKNNM Board of Directors.  Then I'll send out a note to this listserve so you all can get a copy.

Many blessings to you all, and may we continue to challenge and support each other as we learn to navigate this thing called Life.

      Rick Light

[libby]

Our chevre kadisha has also done taharah for non-Jewish family members
who requested it. We don't have a rule about it; we just go with the
flow depending on the individual situation. Every culture has customs
for preparing the deceased with honor and respect. When we have the
diversity and pluralism that exists in our society today, it seems
reasonable for us to offer the "big tent" approach to the family in
mourning. We have so many ger toshav members of our congregation, who
have lived comfortably and been accepted as part of our Jewish family,
while not technically going through conversion, that it seems natural to
extend the same simple modest practices when it comes to death. Liturgy,
of course, can be modified.

Libby

DANIEL LEGER wrote:
>
> Dear Deborah and Me�irah,

>
> Both of your responses touched me deeply.
>
> I think we have to remember that we have so many opportunities to come
> together as well as those which so often keep us apart. Our Chevra is
> a pluralistic one which brings many Jews from many different
> perspectives and practices together in the performance of this
> uniquely sacred work. The desire for a text containing rules would
> only be useful if it contained multiple values based approaches to

> �problems� which sometimes arise. Inevitably new circumstances will
> come before us which no book of rules will have addressed. As Mei�rah

> so eloquently pointed out, the guiding principals are clear and they
> must be paramount in helping us to find our response to the loss which
> lies before us both in the one who has died and in their family.
> Burying the dead and comforting the mourners are the mitzvah around

> which the customs have grown. As soon as the �rules� become the

> primary focus, we run the risk of losing sight of those goals.
>
> My father in law was not a Jew. Knowing how he respected the practices
> and customs which he observed in my home with his Jewish daughter and
> me, I felt completely secure in modifying the act of taharah for him
> prior to his cremation. There was nothing false about it and there was
> no pretense that he was a Jew. It gave great comfort to those who
> understood to know that his body was treated with such kindness.
>
> There are so many ways to stand in the presence of God. We establish
> our traditions and we change with them as we and our times change.
> That is the beauty of the Jewish way.
>
> Daniel Leger
>
> Pittsburgh
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* jewish-...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Deborah Brown
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 04, 2012 8:25 PM
> *To:* jewish-...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

>
> Perhaps Kerry will respond to this, but I do not think it would be
> correct to call washing and dressing a body in shrouds a "fake
> tahara." I have a religiously complex family. I am more or less the
> leader of my chevra. If a non-Jewish member of my family dies, I would
> want his or her body to be tended to with honor and respect just as
> much as I would if it were a Jewish member of my family. I believe the
> members of my chevra would want to do that for me, just as they and
> others would want to make a shiva call or join a minyan or otherwise
> comfort me in my mourning (and have done so in the past.) Those things
> would not be "fake" because my loved one is not Jewish. I would not
> consider it a tahara, nor a "fake tahara," just a tending to the body
> with honor and comforting me. There IS a need for that. And this would
> particularly be the case when that family member is buried next to me
> or my expected place of burial in a Jewish cemetery. Our chevra has
> decided that such a washing would be done without any liturgy, but I
> do know that someone out there - maybe he will respond to this! - is
> working on a liturgy to be used for someone who is not Jewish.
>
> Deborah Brown
>
> Wilmette, IL
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:15 PM, Dr. Joel Etra <jetr...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jetr...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I wonder a bout the need for the fake Tamara.
>
> Specifying "couples only" does solve a number of problems.
>
> Dr Joel Etra
>

> 860.866.5508 <tel:860.866.5508>

>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
> On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:27 AM, Kerry Swartz <kerry....@gmail.com

> <mailto:kerry....@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Last year the first interfaith cemetery opened in Winnipeg, Canada by
>> the largest Conservative Shul:
>>
>> http://www.shaareyzedek.mb.ca/funeral_and_cemetery/shaareyshamayim.htm
>>
>> A separate section of land was selected, fenced off from the rest of
>> the grounds and separated with trees, shrubs and sidewalks. When the
>> Jewish spouse of an interfaith couple dies, they receive a
>> traditional Jewish burial. When the non-Jewish spouses, the burial
>> society contacts a local funeral home who have been trained by the
>> Chesed Shel Emes staff in Tahara techniques. The deceased is cleansed
>> and clothed in Tachrichim by funeral home staff but it is not
>> considered a Tahara by the Chesed. The same caskets are used, no
>> foreign objects or religious objects of their faith are placed in
>> them. I do not know if the funerals are officiated by a Rabbi or
>> alternate clergy. Their headstone must be free of any religious markings.
>>
>> The plots are sold for couples, not families, although I've been told
>> that some consideration would be made in the event of the unexpected
>> death of a child.
>>
>>> <compose-unknown-contact.jpg>
>>>

>>> *Dr. Joel Etra* <mailto:jetr...@gmail.com>

>>>
>>> July 3, 2012 9:54 pm
>>>
>>> I am interested in how other cemeteries are regulating interfaith
>>> sections.
>>>
>>> I would like to know how your bylaws define who can be buried
>>> gathered. Also, if you use the term "family unit," how that is defined.
>>>
>>> Dr Joel Etra
>>>

>>> 860.866.5508 <tel:860.866.5508>

>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
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[Dr. Joel Etra]

Do we also dress the non-Jew in a talit and kipah? 

If this individual wanted to die as a Jew, why did s/he not chose to live as one?

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

I have read and I hear all the discussions here on this topic.  I can't help but feel that the conversations are coming from directions other than the direction our chevre is comfortable with.  

As a group - we are all traditional.  Not orthodox...but, tradtional.  And so our views, opinions and outlook are strikingly different than many here.  This is not bad...it is just different.

Our views and understandings fall more to the "old conventional" practices and beliefs.   I and the other women , are very comfortable with sticking to the minhagim we have worked with for years, and whatever halacha there is, to bring us to the task of Tahara.   None of the women have a real interest in revising, updating or otherwise changing the traditions that they revere as a totally Jewish tradition.  

On those rare ocassions when a request is made that makes then uncomfortable, they have expresssed that they would like to be able to refer to the "guidebook" - the one that would state - we don't do it...to get the pressure off of them when they are being confronted with a request and they don't want to do it. 

Whether or not that as a group, we move to the left of where we are....it is not the situation now.   So, as I write this, the women are very comfortable NOT doing things  as might be considered more modern, liberal, or such. 

Being that is the way it is here..... We would like to have a "guide" book..... that keeps to the values they hold, and brings them to chevre kadisha in the first place. 

So, Rick...when you are ready...please  SEND IT ON OVER!!!   :)

LAURIE

Laurie




 

 

Our group take on many of these issues

----- Original Message -----

From: Deborah Brown

Sent: 07/05/12 09:05 AM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

[Sandy Rife]

Mt. Sinai cemetery in Phoenix, AZ made accommodation for intermarried couples when the cemetery opened 7 ½ years ago. There are 3 sections which are exclusively Jewish. The fourth section is the Ruth section, which accommodates Jewish couples and intermarried couples. This section is separated by a road from the nearby all Jewish sections. The contract can only be written with the Jewish spouse, the funeral service can be held in our Pavilion but no priest or minister can officiate (often a community rabbi or reform rabbi will do the service), and no non-Jewish icons can be on the monument. No other members of the non-Jewish spouse’s family can be buried in the cemetery.

Two reform Temples have designated space in the Ruth section in order to satisfy all members of their congregation.

Sandy Rife

General Manager

sa...@mtsinaicemetery.com

 

 

---

From: jewish-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Joel Etra

Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 9:54 PM
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

--

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

Thank you Rick for expressing so succinctly exactly how our chevre will utilize such a guidebook.  While we don't have an official board, we do meet several times a year and make our feelings known and vote on them.  Additionally, those who do not want to participate in any given tahara...is free to opt out. 

We are in the process of creaing such a guidebook and look forward to seeing yours...maybe getting ideas, incorporating some of yours, clarifying others, etc. 

Laurie

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Rick Light

Sent: 07/05/12 06:02 PM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] question

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On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:46:08 AM UTC-7, Susan Barnes wrote:

Laurie -

 

I'd love to see something like that, too. Our chevra is only a few years old, so I'm sure there are issues we haven't discussed. For example, at the conference (and it was, indeed, great) there was a session on gender differences (transgender, etc.) for which we need to be prepared.

 

Susan Barnes

------------------------------------------------
Read my mind at www.kissamezuzah.blogspot.com

 

---

From: "Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs" <bu...@yours.com>
To: jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2012 10:09:04 AM
Subject: [jewish-funerals] question

FIRST, I would share that I am so disappointed that I could not attend the conference.,...I am certain beyond all doubt that it was as great - if not GREATER than the 9 before!!


SECOND, By any chance, has any chevre group actually written their policies -  guide book - or by laws - on what the "rules" are for their particular chevre?  Such as "we will perform Tahara EVEN if the mait will be cremated...or the opposite...We will NOT provide tahara if we are aware the mait will be cremated?    Or, questions of putting items in the casket, clothing vs shrouds....etc.

Our group would like to formulate a guidebook...so that no matter who is on the tahara team...they will be aware there are policies in place and they not have to worry "on the spot" as to what to do.  It will save those "on the spot" phone calls to David or others...

If any chevres have such a plan in place...would you mind sharing it with me so that  1) we don't have to reinvent the wheel, and 2) get some ideas we may not have thought of!!

tHANK YOU,
LAURIE

 

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On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:46:08 AM UTC-7, Susan Barnes wrote:

Laurie -

 

I'd love to see something like that, too. Our chevra is only a few years old, so I'm sure there are issues we haven't discussed. For example, at the conference (and it was, indeed, great) there was a session on gender differences (transgender, etc.) for which we need to be prepared.

 

Susan Barnes

------------------------------------------------
Read my mind at www.kissamezuzah.blogspot.com

 

---

From: "Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs" <bu...@yours.com>
To: jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2012 10:09:04 AM
Subject: [jewish-funerals] question

FIRST, I would share that I am so disappointed that I could not attend the conference.,...I am certain beyond all doubt that it was as great - if not GREATER than the 9 before!!


SECOND, By any chance, has any chevre group actually written their policies -  guide book - or by laws - on what the "rules" are for their particular chevre?  Such as "we will perform Tahara EVEN if the mait will be cremated...or the opposite...We will NOT provide tahara if we are aware the mait will be cremated?    Or, questions of putting items in the casket, clothing vs shrouds....etc.

Our group would like to formulate a guidebook...so that no matter who is on the tahara team...they will be aware there are policies in place and they not have to worry "on the spot" as to what to do.  It will save those "on the spot" phone calls to David or others...

If any chevres have such a plan in place...would you mind sharing it with me so that  1) we don't have to reinvent the wheel, and 2) get some ideas we may not have thought of!!

tHANK YOU,
LAURIE

 

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[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

Thank you Joel for asking the burning question..... why would a non Jew - regardless of who they are married to - request or expect to be buried as a Jew? 

Laurie

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr. Joel Etra

Sent: 07/05/12 11:44 AM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

Do we also dress the non-Jew in a talit and kipah? 

If this individual wanted to die as a Jew, why did s/he not chose to live as one?

 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

 

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 5, 2012, at 9:05 AM, Deborah Brown <dmb...@gmail.com> wrote:
 

I would respectfully suggest that tahara is NOT "all about the liturgy." It is all about the kavod. Expert knots and beautiful reading of the liturgy in Hebrew without kavod is not a tahara. I agree that the chevra does not make anyone "pure," with or without the liturgy; to claim that would be a profound misunderstanding. I would also not like to claim that only Jews will meet God after death, and I think we can tend to a non-Jewish body to comfort the mourners, but also with hope for that soul, even while not believing we are somehow effecting something for that soul, but that is another discussion. I can see that people might think that burial in a Jjewish cemetery should involve tachrichim, just as it should involve a plain wood casket.

 

Deborah Brown

Wilmette, IL

.On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Dr. Joel Etra <jetr...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a friend who is a brilliant surgeon from Lebanon with whom I shared an office suite. One day I had made tabouli salad and proudly told him that I added chick peas. That sounds really good, he told me, but it's not tabouli salad. Tabouli salad, he said, has no chick peas. 

Tahara is all about the liturgy. Without the liturgy, it's a nice, respectful, caring thing to do; but it's not a Tahara. 

What provoked my comment by the way was the implication that in order to bury a non-Jew, in the Jewish cemetery, such a "Tahara" had to be performed. The comment was not made in the context of offering comfort to family. Rather it was implied that it was to somehow make the body fit to be buried with Jews. If that were even the case, how could washing and dressing without ritual make a difference. My chèvre does not have the power to make anyone pure; we ask God to do that. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

 

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 4, 2012, at 8:25 PM, Deborah Brown <dmb...@gmail.com> wrote:
 

Perhaps Kerry will respond to this, but I do not think it would be correct to call washing and dressing a body in shrouds a "fake tahara." I have a religiously complex family. I am more or less the leader of my chevra. If a non-Jewish member of my family dies, I would want his or her body to be tended to with honor and respect just as much as I would if it were a Jewish member of my family. I believe the members of my chevra would want to do that for me, just as they and others would want to make a shiva call or join a minyan or otherwise comfort me in my mourning (and have done so in the past.) Those things would not be "fake" because my loved one is not Jewish.  I would not consider it a tahara, nor a "fake tahara," just a tending to the body with honor and comforting me. There IS a need for that. And this would particularly be the case when that family member is buried next to me or my expected place of burial in a Jewish cemetery. Our chevra has decided that such a washing would be done without any liturgy, but I do know that someone out there - maybe he will respond to this! - is working on a liturgy to be used for someone who is not Jewish.

 

Deborah Brown

Wilmette, IL
 

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:15 PM, Dr. Joel Etra <jetr...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder a bout the need for the fake Tamara. 

Specifying "couples only" does solve a number of problems. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

 

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:27 AM, Kerry Swartz <kerry....@gmail.com> wrote:
 

Last year the first interfaith cemetery opened in Winnipeg, Canada by the largest Conservative Shul:

http://www.shaareyzedek.mb.ca/funeral_and_cemetery/shaareyshamayim.htm

A separate section of land was selected, fenced off from the rest of the grounds and separated with trees, shrubs and sidewalks. When the Jewish spouse of an interfaith couple dies, they receive a traditional Jewish burial. When the non-Jewish spouses, the burial society contacts a local funeral home who have been trained by the Chesed Shel Emes staff in Tahara techniques. The deceased is cleansed and clothed in Tachrichim by funeral home staff but it is not considered a Tahara by the Chesed. The same caskets are used, no foreign objects or religious objects of their faith are placed in them. I do not know if the funerals are officiated by a Rabbi or alternate clergy. Their headstone must be free of any religious markings.

The plots are sold for couples, not families, although I've been told that some consideration would be made in the event of the unexpected death of a child.

<compose-unknown-contact.jpg>

Dr. Joel Etra

July 3, 2012 9:54 pm

I am interested in how other cemeteries are regulating interfaith sections. 

I would like to know how your bylaws define who can be buried gathered. Also, if you use the term "family unit," how that is defined. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

 

Sent from my iPad

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[Kerry Swartz]

Short answer; nope. I don't think non-Jewish spouses want to die as Jews. They want to be buried next to their Jewish partner and it's unfortunate that in many communities the Jewish partner must forgo a Jewish burial so the couple can achieve this end. If the Shul of their Jewish partner and their community values them as people in life, why should that same group treat them as pariahs in death? Treating their death without traditional Jewish liturgical content already highlights their religious differences. What awaits them afterwards is a function of whatever is "out there", not what we do here, religious differences and practices notwithstanding.

Dr. Joel Etra

July 5, 2012 8:44 am

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

I have no anwers...just more questions....
It seems to me, and it is solely in my most humble opinion - people do what they want - which is fine.  But, should their choices constitute a reason to cause others to jump through hoops.  WHEN someone  - anyone - chooses to take a different path - no matter what that path may be...is the expecation that others must accommodate the new path or should they figure out how to navigate the old while enjoying a new? Whose obligation is it to be flexible, make changes, give up or forgive - when in making the choice to go a different path - id is known that things might not be the same.

I can relate this - to a degree - to my own daughter.  She has chosen a very frum lifestyle.  More power to her..that is her choice.  Now - who has tio be flexible when she is in my home with her children WHO ARE NOT ALLOWED TO WATCH TV, and my son is already in my house (they live closer) and his kids are watching a favorite tv  show - before she arrived.    WHO must be flexible?  Does the TV stay on because it is already on...or does it get shut off because the frum group are now present???  Shut it, and HIS kids will be miserable - on principle probably - they were there first.....or does SHE leave my house  - because it is on?

Being flexible, making changes in what is already an established and comfortable method, suggesting others change their ways to accommodate others who knew  their path would bring challenges....   It is not easy...but, I do not think our group is ready to make changes they did not enlist for.....  or bend to accommodate those who knowingly made choices that would bring such challenges.   Not yet, anyway.

Yes it is very PC to be open and tolerant and such..but it must go both ways.

Laurie

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Kerry Swartz

Sent: 07/06/12 01:59 AM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

 

--

[Elianna & Fishel]

I am one of those who believes we should follow strict halacha  (other discussion)

but I do see the request happening-- and having to be dealt with....

because perhaps THEY (the niftar) considered themself a Jew, though other groups, including the HK, would not.
Or the spouse did, & wanted their niftar treated with what they see as the utmost dignity, while not fully understanding the halachas.

Also some cemeteries REQUIRE taharas, although I would imagine most of those would also require the meis to be Jewish.

Situations where it is unclear- can be quite awkward, as we do not want to add to the pain of the mourners by asking questions which may be perceived as "nosy" & "judgemental", and which then may lead to telling them that their family member's burial can not be as, or possibly even where, they had thought.

This is an area where advanced planning IS a good idea. Advanced planning by the family AND some advanced education of the community, AND funeral homes (so they head off awkward expectations instead of inadvertantly advancing them).

We want to maintain Kavod Ha Meis, but ultimately we NEED to maintain Kavod HaShem.  I believe we DON'T get to change the rules, we are just VERY challenged to do our job with as much kindness as possible in a confusing world.

Mrs B

[Dr. Joel Etra]

Kerry, I did not, and would not, deny anyone the right to be buried with a spouse. In fact K, we proudly operate a cemetery with an interfaith section.  I question,  and i'ii say it again, fake tahara.  Implying as you do that anything short of our tradition of burial is not respectful, relegates the decedent to pariah status, emphasizes their differences, or otherwise devalues them as people, is argumentative at best and at worst, expresses a prejudice. Non-Jewish rituals are perfectly fine for non-Jews. What gives me the right to say anyone else's ritual is any less comforting or dignified than my own? Do I expect the Catholics or the Buddhists to skip the parts of their traditions that I don't like because I can't be otherwise comforted? 

I can also tell you that a local cemetery in order to let people do as they pleased in the name of comforting the bereaved, wound up on the wrong end of a lawsuit bringing divisiveness and discord to the Jewish community. 

 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 6, 2012, at 10:39 AM, "Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs" <bu...@yours.com> wrote:

I have no anwers...just more questions....
It seems to me, and it is solely in my most humble opinion - people do what they want - which is fine.  But, should their choices constitute a reason to cause others to jump through hoops.  WHEN someone  - anyone - chooses to take a different path - no matter what that path may be...is the expecation that others must accommodate the new path or should they figure out how to navigate the old while enjoying a new? Whose obligation is it to be flexible, make changes, give up or forgive - when in making the choice to go a different path - id is known that things might not be the same.

I can relate this - to a degree - to my own daughter.  She has chosen a very frum lifestyle.  More power to her..that is her choice.  Now - who has tio be flexible when she is in my home with her children WHO ARE NOT ALLOWED TO WATCH TV, and my son is already in my house (they live closer) and his kids are watching a favorite tv  show - before she arrived.    WHO must be flexible?  Does the TV stay on because it is already on...or does it get shut off because the frum group are now present???  Shut it, and HIS kids will be miserable - on principle probably - they were there first.....or does SHE leave my house  - because it is on?

Being flexible, making changes in what is already an established and comfortable method, suggesting others change their ways to accommodate others who knew  their path would bring challenges....   It is not easy...but, I do not think our group is ready to make changes they did not enlist for.....  or bend to accommodate those who knowingly made choices that would bring such challenges.   Not yet, anyway.

Yes it is very PC to be open and tolerant and such..but it must go both ways.

Laurie

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Kerry Swartz

Sent: 07/06/12 01:59 AM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

Short answer; nope. I don't think non-Jewish spouses want to die as Jews. They want to be buried next to their Jewish partner and it's unfortunate that in many communities the Jewish partner must forgo a Jewish burial so the couple can achieve this end. If the Shul of their Jewish partner and their community values them as people in life, why should that same group treat them as pariahs in death? Treating their death without traditional Jewish liturgical content already highlights their religious differences. What awaits them afterwards is a function of whatever is "out there", not what we do here, religious differences and practices notwithstanding.

<compose-unknown-contact.jpg>

Dr. Joel Etra

July 5, 2012 8:44 am

Do we also dress the non-Jew in a talit and kipah? 

If this individual wanted to die as a Jew, why did s/he not chose to live as one?

 

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[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

Our group NEVER deals woth the family.  We don't see them, talk to them or in any way communicate.  We get our info from the FD.  IF he tells us they request soemthing we won't do.... he can tell them.  They can decide what to do next. Period.

It is not for us to circle the wagons for everyoj's pick and choose choices.  We, the chevre, have kavod ha mait in mind at all times.  We perform Tahara with the most kavod we can muster.  We are not prepared or interested in having different liturgies to suit the occasion...different standards depending on who is nifta, or some from column A and some from column B to twi9st ouor selves to accomodate someone elses choices. 

To us, this is a sacred, spiritual, religious, traditional Jewish observance.  Not to sound TOO gruff, I guess our view is  - take it or leave it.   The FD could conceivably call a different group and let them do as they may. 

Within parameters and boundaries - we will be flexible.  A teddy bear in the aron with a child.  That's about it.  Our chevre has really for the most part, chosen to hold out for why they actually joined a chevre kadisha group in the first place.

Laurie

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Elianna & Fishel

Sent: 07/06/12 09:47 AM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

I am one of those who believes we should follow strict halacha  (other discussion)

but I do see the request happening-- and having to be dealt with....

because perhaps THEY (the niftar) considered themself a Jew, though other groups, including the HK, would not.
Or the spouse did, & wanted their niftar treated with what they see as the utmost dignity, while not fully understanding the halachas.

Also some cemeteries REQUIRE taharas, although I would imagine most of those would also require the meis to be Jewish.

Situations where it is unclear- can be quite awkward, as we do not want to add to the pain of the mourners by asking questions which may be perceived as "nosy" & "judgemental", and which then may lead to telling them that their family member's burial can not be as, or possibly even where, they had thought.

This is an area where advanced planning IS a good idea. Advanced planning by the family AND some advanced education of the community, AND funeral homes (so they head off awkward expectations instead of inadvertantly advancing them).

We want to maintain Kavod Ha Meis, but ultimately we NEED to maintain Kavod HaShem.  I believe we DON'T get to change the rules, we are just VERY challenged to do our job with as much kindness as possible in a confusing world.

Mrs B


 

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 12:29 AM, Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs <bu...@yours.com> wrote:

Thank you Joel for asking the burning question..... why would a non Jew - regardless of who they are married to - request or expect to be buried as a Jew? 

Laurie

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr. Joel Etra

Sent: 07/05/12 11:44 AM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

Do we also dress the non-Jew in a talit and kipah? 

If this individual wanted to die as a Jew, why did s/he not chose to live as one?

 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

 

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 5, 2012, at 9:05 AM, Deborah Brown <dmb...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Deborah Brown]

What is wonderful about these discussions is that someone who wants to know the range of practices/minhag among groups across the continent can find it here. I think we can all agree that we all approach our task with kavod ha-meit.  I don't think any of us wants to tell another group what they should or shouldn't do. If a chevra is looking for ideas, they can find them here. 

 

Deborah Brown

Wilmette, IL

[mbal...@sprynet.com]

Hi,
Members of this group I have the utmost respect for the selfless acts you perform for our community. As the owner of the Treewood Casket Company, I have been a silent observer of your ongoing discussions. Today I break my silence and want to give members my prospective. Funerals are expensive have you ever looked at a price list? Can you imagine paying for your daughters wedding, the happiest day of your life comes along. As you are standing with your daughter ready to walk down the isle a man taps you on your shoulder and says "mr. We have found a fly in one piece of corn, kosher law dictates we shut the wedding down". Peace in the house supersedes anything in my opinion. If someone wants a taharah give it to them don't ask questions. There is a good chance they lived a Jewish life. We have learned to adapt to many situation as Jews and this is something that we will just have to adapt to. What happens when there is a casket that isn't a simple pine box? Do you refuse to do a taharah? No you have adapted to the fact that as long as the box is all wood constructed its ok. Continue your healthy debate, I hope it leads to a universal rule book that allows all cheveras to do taharah's on anyone that wants one done.
Kind Regards,
Michael H Balshin
President
Treewood Caskets Ltd

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

---

From: "Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs" <bu...@yours.com>

Sender: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 13:56:23 -0400

To: <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

[Ilene Rubenstein]

I can shed a little interesting insight into this perfectly logical question.

A friend of mine is not Jewish, though she was married to a Jewish man whom she loved very much. She considered converting (her idea, not his), and studied extensively. Eventually she became a spiritual director within the Christian faith, because she felt she could do so more authentically as a Christian. However, she is more knowledgeable about Judaism than many Jews I know. When her beloved husband's health was failing, they found a wonderful, and actually quite famous  non-sectarian cemetery where they could be buried together. She took great care to arrange a traditional Jewish funeral for him, and told me afterwards how comforted she was to know that he was lovingly cared for by the chevra kadisha (yes - she knew all about the chevrah, shmira and tahara). 

At his shiva, she told me that she finds the Jewish traditions around death, burial and mourning to be so beautiful and "on the mark" that she has instructed the ladies of her church that when her time comes, she wants them to prepare her in the way we care for our dead. She is not seeking the services of a chevrah kadisha, or a tahara per se, but she wants to be washed and dressed in simple white garments by the women of her community, and buried in a plain pine casket.

Ours is a rich and beautiful heritage and one doesn't have to be Jewish to appreciate its wisdom. The reasons why people do or do not convert are many and varied. Though our customs evolved so that Jews might care for Jews, and halacha clearly applies only to Jews (although oftentimes, the work of the chevra is rooted more in minhag than halacha), the nuances we now face have created situations that previous generations, living more insular lives, probably never (or at least rarely) faced.

Each chevra will have to come to its own decisions in these matters, but it is fairly clear that most communities will face these questions at one time or another. It is also clear that these questions are complex, with many possible interpretations as to the correct balance between preserving our traditions and providing kavod ha met and comfort for the mourners. As someone else so eloquently pointed out (sorry - I forgot who), how we respond can very well determine whether someone views Judaism as a source of comfort, beauty, wisdom and support that they want to be directly or indirectly connected to, or not.

---

From: Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs <bu...@yours.com>

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

[Dr. Joel Etra]

Ilene, thank you for being responsive to my question without impugning my motives. I have no trouble with washing and dressing a meit. I don't even have an issue with chèvre members who are so inclined doing it. After all, we are the ones who know how. My only problem is in using our liturgy and calling it taharah. I have as much desire to comfort mourners as any other chèvre member. I was a little surprised to hear people claim, in effect, that we have the best way to bury people and provide comfort to mourners; echoing religious extremists. I like to think that every religion provides for it's adherents for better or worse. It is not for me, especially as a Jew, to encourage others to follow my rituals in favor of their own. 

I had an enlightening conversation this morning that helps explain this makhloket. A young man is studying in a Reconstructionist congregation for his Bar Mitzva which will take place in my Conservative synagogue. I was discussing liturgy with the teacher who asked me if we say "asher bachar banu." this of course represents a very basic philosophical difference between Conservative and Reconstructionist. We claim that we are "chosen" and thus somehow different. It is easy to see that without that belief, it would be easy to rationalize a Tahara with the same traditional ritual for a non-Jew.  

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 9, 2012, at 2:35 PM, Ilene Rubenstein <minim...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I can shed a little interesting insight into this perfectly logical question

[Rick Light]

Joel,

Here is an example of why I am writing a manual for a procedure for the preparation of non-Jews for burial:

There's a couple living in a nearby town in which the husband is not Jewish, the wife is.  The wife is very much involved in the local synagogue activities, but is not very "religious" - she rarely comes to services.  In fact when they do come to services, they usually come together, and it's on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, along with weddings, bar mitzvot, etc.  The wife is also a member of our chevra, although she rarely volunteers, but has asked to be kept on the list to do Tahara.

When the husband dies, it is quite likely that the wife will want him buried as a Jew.  They have been active members of the Jewish community for some 30 years, raised their children as Jews, saw them bar/bat mitzvah'ed in the local shul, etc.  Here is a situation where we truly have "k'rov Yisrael" - a non-Jew who is very much connected to the Jewish community.  

The ritual my new manual supports has no Hebrew in it, uses liturgy but it is not the same liturgy as we use for Tahara, follows similar procedures as Tahara, but the procedure itself is not called Tahara, and the ritual is designed for those familiar with Tahara to do this when requested by a Jewish member of the community for a spouse who is not Jewish but who has been part of the community.  Where to draw the line?  Well, that's hard, and it will, I'm sure, be on a case by case basis.  However, in the manual I use the definition of "k'rov Yisrael" defined by a board of Conservative Rabbis who wrote a book on how to handle non-Jews within the Jewish community.  Our own Reb Kelman is one of the authors.  The book is called,  A Place in the Tent, Intermarriage and Conservative Judaism, by Rabbis Bloom, Feldman, Freeman, Kelman, Manhoff, and Weisel, with Levinson and Massarano, EKS Publishing, Oakland, CA, 2005.    

At first I too, was a bit uncertain about all of this.  But now I have no qualms!  My focus as the leader of a Chevra Kadisha is to midwife souls from this world to the next.  If we can provide kavod ha'met to those who are part of our community, it is a mitzvah.  So what's the worst that can happen?  So we midwife a non-Jewish soul.  What they get to Heaven and find out they took the wrong bus?  I cannot see how we can go wrong here.  I would rather err on the side of helping too many souls than not enough.

Many blessings,

     Rick

On Tuesday, July 10, 2012 12:36:56 PM UTC-6, Joel wrote:

Ilene, thank you for being responsive to my question without impugning my motives. I have no trouble with washing and dressing a meit. I don't even have an issue with chèvre members who are so inclined doing it. After all, we are the ones who know how. My only problem is in using our liturgy and calling it taharah. I have as much desire to comfort mourners as any other chèvre member. I was a little surprised to hear people claim, in effect, that we have the best way to bury people and provide comfort to mourners; echoing religious extremists. I like to think that every religion provides for it's adherents for better or worse. It is not for me, especially as a Jew, to encourage others to follow my rituals in favor of their own. 

I had an enlightening conversation this morning that helps explain this makhloket. A young man is studying in a Reconstructionist congregation for his Bar Mitzva which will take place in my Conservative synagogue. I was discussing liturgy with the teacher who asked me if we say "asher bachar banu." this of course represents a very basic philosophical difference between Conservative and Reconstructionist. We claim that we are "chosen" and thus somehow different. It is easy to see that without that belief, it would be easy to rationalize a Tahara with the same traditional ritual for a non-Jew.  

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 9, 2012, at 2:35 PM, Ilene Rubenstein <minim...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I can shed a little interesting insight into this perfectly logical question

A friend of mine is not Jewish, though she was married to a Jewish man whom she loved very much. She considered converting (her idea, not his), and studied extensively. Eventually she became a spiritual director within the Christian faith, because she felt she could do so more authentically as a Christian. However, she is more knowledgeable about Judaism than many Jews I know. When her beloved husband's health was failing, they found a wonderful, and actually quite famous  non-sectarian cemetery where they could be buried together. She took great care to arrange a traditional Jewish funeral for him, and told me afterwards how comforted she was to know that he was lovingly cared for by the chevra kadisha (yes - she knew all about the chevrah, shmira and tahara). 

At his shiva, she told me that she finds the Jewish traditions around death, burial and mourning to be so beautiful and "on the mark" that she has instructed the ladies of her church that when her time comes, she wants them to prepare her in the way we care for our dead. She is not seeking the services of a chevrah kadisha, or a tahara per se, but she wants to be washed and dressed in simple white garments by the women of her community, and buried in a plain pine casket.

Ours is a rich and beautiful heritage and one doesn't have to be Jewish to appreciate its wisdom. The reasons why people do or do not convert are many and varied. Though our customs evolved so that Jews might care for Jews, and halacha clearly applies only to Jews (although oftentimes, the work of the chevra is rooted more in minhag than halacha), the nuances we now face have created situations that previous generations, living more insular lives, probably never (or at least rarely) faced.

Each chevra will have to come to its own decisions in these matters, but it is fairly clear that most communities will face these questions at one time or another. It is also clear that these questions are complex, with many possible interpretations as to the correct balance between preserving our traditions and providing kavod ha met and comfort for the mourners. As someone else so eloquently pointed out (sorry - I forgot who), how we respond can very well determine whether someone views Judaism as a source of comfort, beauty, wisdom and support that they want to be directly or indirectly connected to, or not.

---

From: Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs <bu...@yours.com>

To: jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com

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[Ilene Rubenstein]

I'd like to clarify a bit. Although I feel that the Jewish response to death and mourning are remarkable on so many levels, I do not mean to imply that they are "better" than those of other cultures. What I was trying to suggest is that as situations of "interfaith burial" become increasingly common, with an open attitude, creativity and flexibility, options can be found that meet the needs of the family without compromising important religious standards. I believe it is possible that we will start seeing a new fluidity between cultures in this respect in the interests of respecting our dead and comforting mourners. Let me mention a few such scenarios.

Although we do not believe in open caskets, we need to respect the fact that non-Jewish spouses (or parents) were raised with the expectation of an opportunity to see the deceased one last time to say good-bye. Denying this ingrained expectation can be very painful, but allowing a moment to say a private good-bye at some point in the process (before tahara, before sealing the coffin, or before the service) can go a long way in terms of showing respect for the needs and beliefs of the mourner, and providing comfort to them.

A number of years ago, my neighbor lost his beloved grandmother. There was a short wake before the burial. The day after the funeral, my neighbor was too sad to go to work. He was clearly in deep mourning, but spent the day alone. When I learned of this, I felt so sorry that he didn't have the company shiva would have provided before he was ready to rejoin the world of the living.

On the other hand, our customs can also be enriched by such a fluidity. My Christian friend who wants to be prepared by the women of her community in a way that mirrors ours suggested an interesting nuance at her husband's unveiling. Picking up on our custom of placing stones on a grave (presumably a reflection of the ancient custom of reinforcing markers that had begun to crumble), she asked family and friends to bring a rock from their widespread hometowns to place on the grave as a way of leaving a piece of themselves behind to comfort her husband's soul.

And so... the conversation will continue as we continue to navigate these new waters.

---

From: Dr. Joel Etra <jetr...@gmail.com>
To: "jewish-...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

This is a very interesting ongoing conversation.......and,
I find that I am somewhat in a different camp....., and -
I believe my chevre - who, as far as I am aware - join me in "my" camp.....

The suggestions that chevre members should rally from their daily lives,  gather at the FH, and meticulously care for a Mait.....who is not Jewish, does not resonate. 

I would be as uncomfortable being summoned, agreeing to go, and spending time and effort - on someone whose beliefs in life don't coincide with what Tahara, neshama, tradition, ritual, minhag...and yes, even a bit of halacha inherently are meant to attend to.  As is being suggested here,  I would as uninterested in spending my time, efforts and hard work tutoring a NON Jewish kid for Bar Mitzva - because the parents are enamored with the ritual, the idea and concept or  - the party!

As to the idea of open attitudes....I am not of the  opinion that I would promote or encourage interfaith marriage.  Therefore, I also cannot get on the band wagon to reward it.  Actually -  it would seem to me to almost be an insult to the non Jew to take them above and beyond what they did while they were alive...and do for them what they had not done for themselves....be Jewish - and with that accept or decline all things/traditions Jewish.    

As far as kavod to the Jewish spouse - Kavod can be shown in many ways, many ways that do not expect, require, ask or demand of chevre to step outside of the parameters that they "signed up for".  

As one can probably interpret from my responses...I am much more traditional than most here.....
With that said....I do not see that everyone must proscribe to more liberal interpretations....
Regarding "liberalizing" our tahara - as the women in my chevre would say: "That is not the army we signed up for"...
signed,
Sgt, Benjamin!! 

Laurie

 


 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ilene Rubenstein

Sent: 07/11/12 07:36 AM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

I'd like to clarify a bit. Although I feel that the Jewish response to death and mourning are remarkable on so many levels, I do not mean to imply that they are "better" than those of other cultures. What I was trying to suggest is that as situations of "interfaith burial" become increasingly common, with an open attitude, creativity and flexibility, options can be found that meet the needs of the family without compromising important religious standards. I believe it is possible that we will start seeing a new fluidity between cultures in this respect in the interests of respecting our dead and comforting mourners. Let me mention a few such scenarios.

[Kerry Swartz]

More to Ilene's point, when my father passed away I was allowed (offered, actually) by the Chesed Shel Emes in Winnipeg to sprinkle sand on his face prior to the cover being placed on his casket. Today, in one of the Modern Orthodox teams I work with, from time to time, we will allow immediate family to see their deceased after Tahara. But those decisions are not ours; they remain that of the Chevra chair, funeral director or Rabbi.

Ilene Rubenstein

July 11, 2012 4:36 am

Dr. Joel Etra

July 10, 2012 11:36 am

Ilene, thank you for being responsive to my question without impugning my motives. I have no trouble with washing and dressing a meit. I don't even have an issue with chèvre members who are so inclined doing it. After all, we are the ones who know how. My only problem is in using our liturgy and calling it taharah. I have as much desire to comfort mourners as any other chèvre member. I was a little surprised to hear people claim, in effect, that we have the best way to bury people and provide comfort to mourners; echoing religious extremists. I like to think that every religion provides for it's adherents for better or worse. It is not for me, especially as a Jew, to encourage others to follow my rituals in favor of their own. 

I had an enlightening conversation this morning that helps explain this makhloket. A young man is studying in a Reconstructionist congregation for his Bar Mitzva which will take place in my Conservative synagogue. I was discussing liturgy with the teacher who asked me if we say "asher bachar banu." this of course represents a very basic philosophical difference between Conservative and Reconstructionist. We claim that we are "chosen" and thus somehow different. It is easy to see that without that belief, it would be easy to rationalize a Tahara with the same traditional ritual for a non-Jew.  

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 9, 2012, at 2:35 PM, Ilene Rubenstein <minim...@yahoo.com> wrote:

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Ilene Rubenstein

July 9, 2012 11:35 am

I can shed a little interesting insight into this perfectly logical question.

A friend of mine is not Jewish, though she was married to a Jewish man whom she loved very much. She considered converting (her idea, not his), and studied extensively. Eventually she became a spiritual director within the Christian faith, because she felt she could do so more authentically as a Christian. However, she is more knowledgeable about Judaism than many Jews I know. When her beloved husband's health was failing, they found a wonderful, and actually quite famous  non-sectarian cemetery where they could be buried together. She took great care to arrange a traditional Jewish funeral for him, and told me afterwards how comforted she was to know that he was lovingly cared for by the chevra kadisha (yes - she knew all about the chevrah, shmira and tahara). 

At his shiva, she told me that she finds the Jewish traditions around death, burial and mourning to be so beautiful and "on the mark" that she has instructed the ladies of her church that when her time comes, she wants them to prepare her in the way we care for our dead. She is not seeking the services of a chevrah kadisha, or a tahara per se, but she wants to be washed and dressed in simple white garments by the women of her community, and buried in a plain pine casket.

Ours is a rich and beautiful heritage and one doesn't have to be Jewish to appreciate its wisdom. The reasons why people do or do not convert are many and varied. Though our customs evolved so that Jews might care for Jews, and halacha clearly applies only to Jews (although oftentimes, the work of the chevra is rooted more in minhag than halacha), the nuances we now face have created situations that previous generations, living more insular lives, probably never (or at least rarely) faced.

Each chevra will have to come to its own decisions in these matters, but it is fairly clear that most communities will face these questions at one time or another. It is also clear that these questions are complex, with many possible interpretations as to the correct balance between preserving our traditions and providing kavod ha met and comfort for the mourners. As someone else so eloquently pointed out (sorry - I forgot who), how we respond can very well determine whether someone views Judaism as a source of comfort, beauty, wisdom and support that they want to be directly or indirectly connected to, or not.

---

From: Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs <bu...@yours.com>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

Thank you Joel for asking the burning question..... why would a non Jew - regardless of who they are married to - request or expect to be buried as a Jew? 

Laurie

 

 

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Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs

July 5, 2012 9:29 pm

Thank you Joel for asking the burning question..... why would a non Jew - regardless of who they are married to - request or expect to be buried as a Jew? 

Laurie

 

 

--

[Deborah Brown]

Members of groups that I have talked with whose groups have allowed less traditional practices in their chevra have always given any member of the chevra the right to decline to participate in any particular chevra. Our group allows any member to decline to participate in ANY tahara if she/he feels unable to provide appropriate kavod ha-meit/ah, either for reasons of her/his personal situation or because of the choices made by the person who has died or that person's family. And, again, I for one am certainly not suggesting that any other chevra, "traditonal" or "lliberal," ought to change practices with which they are comfortable so that they reflect what I am comfortable with.

 

Deborah

[Ilene Rubenstein]

Yasher koach to you for what sounds like a wonderful, meaningful solution. You have created a path that allows the chevra to perform a mitzvah for a human being who was K'rov Israel, and whose care matters to someone who is Jewish. I agree that individual members MUST be free to follow their own conscience in these matters, but I am happy that by working the semantics and content, an alternative is being created that many of us can be comfortable with. A kindness is still a kindness by any other name. I look forward to reading the protocol you develop, and sharing it with the leaders of my chevra for their consideration.

When someone asks to have their non-Jewish loved one prepared for burial, I don't think they are necessarily asking that a non-Jew be buried as a Jew. I think what they are saying is that they want them prepared in a loving way, that they appreciate the beauty and simplicity of our practices, and that they ultimately want to be buried side by side. Sometimes it is important to look for and understand the feelings and thinking underlying a request, and figure out how to meet, or at least address those needs. We should not jump to incorrect, and potentially hurtful conclusions and assumptions. So, how to do that?

I think Rick is on the right path. Another options that hasn't been mentioned would be to lend guidance and support to the mourner (preferably in person) as they deal with a funeral home of the deceased's faith so that they could provide similar services, and avoid those highly profitable practices we generally eschew.

While it is true that most of us join a chevra in order to care for Jews, one could look at this in a similar way to the decisions we make about tzedakah. Do we give only to Jewish charities? Some choose to give to a wider range of causes; others prefer to focus their giving to Jewish organizations. It is a personal choice that adds mitzvah and tikun to the world either way.

---

From: Rick Light <rickli...@gmail.com>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

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[Dr. Joel Etra]

Ilene, I do not consider Judaism a culture; a religion and a nationality yes, but not a culture. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

I guess our situation is a bit on the unique side.....
We wouldn't necessarily know IN ADVANCE of arriving....of particular preferences.
We have not devfised a special list of those who will do A but not B - so the person who makes the calls to rally the group - 1) wouldn't necessarily KNOW of specific desires, and 2)  wouldn't know who is willing to do what.  And as some thngs are "on the spot" decisions...a list might not help too much anyway. 

As we are called by FH's we have never worked in before, FD's change, never speaking to family OR rabbis, chevre people come and go as available...... the ability to communicate to everyone concerned every possibility at any given time...would be most impossible to accomplish.  

And so, as I had initially suggested - we would do well to have a guide book - so that no matter who makes the calls, or who avails themselves of the tahara opportunity, no matter what the request  - some handy, printed, agreed upon, groundrules will take the pressure off of any chevre member having to make a decision - particularly one they have no clue about, no opinion of, or differs from tjeir personal take.  While a chevre member might take the lead (rosha) ....not all feel comfortable making difficult decisions.  Of course, anyone at anytime is encouraged to step back if it is something they can't/won't do..... but, we are striving to come up with a plan that everyone cfan be comfortable with so that no one need step back.
Laurie

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Deborah Brown

Sent: 07/11/12 09:47 AM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

Members of groups that I have talked with whose groups have allowed less traditional practices in their chevra have always given any member of the chevra the right to decline to participate in any particular chevra. Our group allows any member to decline to participate in ANY tahara if she/he feels unable to provide appropriate kavod ha-meit/ah, either for reasons of her/his personal situation or because of the choices made by the person who has died or that person's family. And, again, I for one am certainly not suggesting that any other chevra, "traditonal" or "lliberal," ought to change practices with which they are comfortable so that they reflect what I am comfortable with.

 

Deborah
 

[Ilene Rubenstein]

I don't disagree with you - I was just trying to say that I was not trying to imply that the Jewish response to death is not necessarily "better" than the responses of other religions/cultures, or to disrespect those customs. Obviously, I prefer ours, but clearly the practices of other faiths must be of some benefit to their adherents, or these customs would not have survived.

---

From: Dr. Joel Etra <jetr...@gmail.com>
To: "jewish-...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

[libby]

Our congregation is affiliated with the Reconstructionist movement which
was founded by Rabbi Mordechai Kaplan, author of "Judaism as a
Civilization" among other works. His description of Judaism as a
civilization works for me and many others, especially when dealing with
"interfaith" issues around life-cycle events.

Libby

Dr. Joel Etra wrote:
> Ilene, I do not consider Judaism a culture; a religion and a
> nationality yes, but not a culture.
>
>
> Dr Joel Etra
> 860.866.5508
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 11, 2012, at 8:30 AM, "Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs" <bu...@yours.com

>> Laurie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: Ilene Rubenstein
>>>
>>> Sent: 07/11/12 07:36 AM
>>>
>>> To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

>>> <mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com>

>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* Dr. Joel Etra <jetr...@gmail.com <mailto:jetr...@gmail.com>>
>>> *To:* "jewish-...@googlegroups.com
>>> <mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com>"
>>> <jewish-...@googlegroups.com
>>> <mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com>>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 10, 2012 2:36 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

>>>
>>> Ilene, thank you for being responsive to my question without
>>> impugning my motives. I have no trouble with washing and dressing a

>>> meit. I don't even have an issue with ch�vre members who are so

>>> inclined doing it. After all, we are the ones who know how. My only
>>> problem is in using our liturgy and calling it taharah. I have as

>>> much desire to comfort mourners as any other ch�vre member. I was a

>>> little surprised to hear people claim, in effect, that we have the
>>> best way to bury people and provide comfort to mourners; echoing
>>> religious extremists. I like to think that every religion provides
>>> for it's adherents for better or worse. It is not for me, especially
>>> as a Jew, to encourage others to follow my rituals in favor of their
>>> own.
>>> I had an enlightening conversation this morning that helps explain
>>> this makhloket. A young man is studying in a Reconstructionist
>>> congregation for his Bar Mitzva which will take place in my
>>> Conservative synagogue. I was discussing liturgy with the teacher
>>> who asked me if we say "asher bachar banu." this of course
>>> represents a very basic philosophical difference between
>>> Conservative and Reconstructionist. We claim that we are "chosen"
>>> and thus somehow different. It is easy to see that without that
>>> belief, it would be easy to rationalize a Tahara with the same
>>> traditional ritual for a non-Jew.
>>>
>>> Dr Joel Etra
>>> 860.866.5508
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Jul 9, 2012, at 2:35 PM, Ilene Rubenstein <minim...@yahoo.com

>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs <bu...@yours.com
>>>> <mailto:bu...@yours.com>>
>>>> *To:* jewish-...@googlegroups.com
>>>> <mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 6, 2012 12:29 AM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

>>>>
>>>> Thank you Joel for asking the burning question..... why would a non
>>>> Jew - regardless of who they are married to - request or expect to
>>>> be buried as a Jew?
>>>>
>>>> Laurie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Dr. Joel Etra
>>>>> Sent: 07/05/12 11:44 AM
>>>>> To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
>>>>> <mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith
>>>>>
>>>>> Do we also dress the non-Jew in a talit and kipah?
>>>>> If this individual wanted to die as a Jew, why did s/he not chose
>>>>> to live as one?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr Joel Etra
>>>>> 860.866.5508
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 5, 2012, at 9:05 AM, Deborah Brown <dmb...@gmail.com

>>>>> <mailto:dmb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would respectfully suggest that tahara is NOT "all about the
>>>>>> liturgy." It is all about the kavod. Expert knots and
>>>>>> beautiful reading of the liturgy in Hebrew without kavod is not a
>>>>>> tahara. I agree that the chevra does not make anyone "pure," with
>>>>>> or without the liturgy; to claim that would be a profound
>>>>>> misunderstanding. I would also not like to claim that only Jews
>>>>>> will meet God after death, and I think we can tend to a
>>>>>> non-Jewish body to comfort the mourners, but also with hope for
>>>>>> that soul, even while not believing we are somehow effecting
>>>>>> something for that soul, but that is another discussion. I can
>>>>>> see that people might think that burial in a Jjewish cemetery
>>>>>> should involve tachrichim, just as it should involve a plain wood
>>>>>> casket.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deborah Brown
>>>>>> Wilmette, IL
>>>>>> .On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Dr. Joel Etra

>>>>>> <jetr...@gmail.com <mailto:jetr...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a friend who is a brilliant surgeon from Lebanon with
>>>>>> whom I shared an office suite. One day I had made tabouli
>>>>>> salad and proudly told him that I added chick peas. That
>>>>>> sounds really good, he told me, but it's not tabouli salad.
>>>>>> Tabouli salad, he said, has no chick peas.
>>>>>> Tahara is all about the liturgy. Without the liturgy, it's a
>>>>>> nice, respectful, caring thing to do; but it's not a Tahara.
>>>>>> What provoked my comment by the way was the implication that
>>>>>> in order to bury a non-Jew, in the Jewish cemetery, such a
>>>>>> "Tahara" had to be performed. The comment was not made in the
>>>>>> context of offering comfort to family. Rather it was implied
>>>>>> that it was to somehow make the body fit to be buried with
>>>>>> Jews. If that were even the case, how could washing and

>>>>>> dressing without ritual make a difference. My ch�vre does not

>>>>>> have the power to make anyone pure; we ask God to do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr Joel Etra
>>>>>> 860.866.5508
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 4, 2012, at 8:25 PM, Deborah Brown <dmb...@gmail.com

>>>>>>> <kerry....@gmail.com <mailto:kerry....@gmail.com>>

>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Last year the first interfaith cemetery opened in
>>>>>>>> Winnipeg, Canada by the largest Conservative Shul:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.shaareyzedek.mb.ca/funeral_and_cemetery/shaareyshamayim.htm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A separate section of land was selected, fenced off
>>>>>>>> from the rest of the grounds and separated with trees,
>>>>>>>> shrubs and sidewalks. When the Jewish spouse of an
>>>>>>>> interfaith couple dies, they receive a traditional
>>>>>>>> Jewish burial. When the non-Jewish spouses, the burial
>>>>>>>> society contacts a local funeral home who have been
>>>>>>>> trained by the Chesed Shel Emes staff in Tahara
>>>>>>>> techniques. The deceased is cleansed and clothed in
>>>>>>>> Tachrichim by funeral home staff but it is not
>>>>>>>> considered a Tahara by the Chesed. The same caskets are
>>>>>>>> used, no foreign objects or religious objects of their
>>>>>>>> faith are placed in them. I do not know if the funerals
>>>>>>>> are officiated by a Rabbi or alternate clergy. Their
>>>>>>>> headstone must be free of any religious markings.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The plots are sold for couples, not families, although
>>>>>>>> I've been told that some consideration would be made in
>>>>>>>> the event of the unexpected death of a child.
>>>>>>>>> <compose-unknown-contact.jpg>

>>>>>>>>> Dr. Joel Etra <mailto:jetr...@gmail.com>

>>>>>>>>> July 3, 2012 9:54 pm
>>>>>>>>> I am interested in how other cemeteries are regulating
>>>>>>>>> interfaith sections.
>>>>>>>>> I would like to know how your bylaws define who can be
>>>>>>>>> buried gathered. Also, if you use the term "family
>>>>>>>>> unit," how that is defined.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dr Joel Etra
>>>>>>>>> 860.866.5508
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed
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>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com>.

>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>>>>>> jewish-funera...@googlegroups.com

>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jewish-funera...@googlegroups.com>.

>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals?hl=en.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>>>>>> <mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com>.

>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>>>>>>>> <mailto:jewish-funera...@googlegroups.com>.

>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>>>>>> <mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com>.

>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>>>>>> <mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com>.

>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>>>>>> <mailto:jewish-funera...@googlegroups.com>.

>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
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>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>>
>>
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[Kerry Swartz]

I do not agree with this statement . . . and neither would the entire
Satmar Community for example.
What this has to do with Jewish Funerals is lost on me.

[Dr. Joel Etra]

I am very glad to be standing in opposition to some of the most evil people in the world. To me, Judaism is a religion first. It certainly contains some cultural aspects but it is not primarily a culture. By the way, the Satmar, yemach shemam, don't believe that either. As a religion, among other things, it comes with rules and rules for changing the rules. Jewish culture brings us cholent, Chagall, and Israeli dancing. Taharah comes from Jewish law; yes, it changes, but not because it feels good.
Thanks again for the Satmar thing.

Dr Joel Etra
860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

[Dr. Joel Etra]

You are absolutely correct, Libby. It works for many people. It is a beautiful and reasonable philosophy. I enjoy frequent visits to a nearby R. synagogue. I have a very high regard for the Ranbi there Your reference to Judaism as a civilization is just a little different form of the rhetoric I was using. I used it to explain why you might be comfortable doing a taharah on a non-Jew and I would not. Our philosophical differences guide our attitudes toward Jewish practice and decision making. You certainly do have a much easier path than I do when dealing with Gentiles.
I do wonder why you take such a defensive posture.

Dr Joel Etra
860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

>>>> Ilene, thank you for being responsive to my question without impugning my motives. I have no trouble with washing and dressing a meit. I don't even have an issue with chèvre members who are so inclined doing it. After all, we are the ones who know how. My only problem is in using our liturgy and calling it taharah. I have as much desire to comfort mourners as any other chèvre member. I was a little surprised to hear people claim, in effect, that we have the best way to bury people and provide comfort to mourners; echoing religious extremists. I like to think that every religion provides for it's adherents for better or worse. It is not for me, especially as a Jew, to encourage others to follow my rituals in favor of their own. I had an enlightening conversation this morning that helps explain this makhloket. A young man is studying in a Reconstructionist congregation for his Bar Mitzva which will take place in my Conservative synagogue. I was discussing liturgy with the teacher who asked me if we say "asher bachar banu." this of course represents a very basic philosophical difference between Conservative and Reconstructionist. We claim that we are "chosen" and thus somehow different. It is easy to see that without that belief, it would be easy to rationalize a Tahara with the same traditional ritual for a non-Jew. Dr Joel Etra

>>>>>>> dressing without ritual make a difference. My chèvre does not

[Dr. Joel Etra]

Very well said. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

HHHmmm, I am of the opinion that even we have traditions that deserve to die....that I think should have passed  a long time ago.  All of these traditions - while followed religiously by die hards................ should not still be around.  Get's for one!

Laurie

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr. Joel Etra

Sent: 07/13/12 10:41 AM

[Dr. Joel Etra]

(My) Advantage of being in a small town. We know each other and the FDs very well. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

[Saul Guberman]

Eating matzo balls, bagels and lox, and pastrami on rye are traditions.  Get is not a tradition.

Saul

[Dr. Joel Etra]

True, a law not a tradition. But a law thai no longer has any social relevance and serves largely to bring pain. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

[Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs]

Yes, I did I lump "get"  into a general category of "traditions"-  more precisely laws  - that in my humble opinion have passed their expiration date:  A "Get" and with it, its sad but frequent partner -agunah, mikva, eruv, and kol isha for starters. 

Laurie

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dr. Joel Etra

Sent: 07/17/12 12:02 AM

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Interfaith

[Lynn Greenhough]

Dear Laurie,

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And yes.

Your opinion may be humble, but it is very worthy. Past expiration date, indeed!

Love,

Lynn

 

---

[Rick Light]

As the Board of Directors of the Chevra Kadisha of Northern New Mexico reviews the new manual of policies and practices (mentioned in previous posts), they have asked what others have done, specifically in regard to (1) policies related to transgender deaths, and (2) policies related to burial of non-Jewish spouses of Jews. Anyone have policies in place about these, or have guidelines in place? What have other chevrot done to prepare for such deaths?

[Lynn Greenhough]

No guidelines per se re trans – most instances will have to be taken on a per circumstance basis. I think what is needed more than policies and/or guidelines is education about the issue and good will.

Thanks,
Lynn

 

---

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[Lawrence, Leonard]

I have very simple answers and guidelines in effect at Mount Sinai in Los Angeles.

 

1.      Transgender? A Jew is a Jew and deserves a Jewish burial;

2.      NON-Jewish spouses – We are commanded to not separate families. WE will bury the non-Jewish spouse or children of a Jew but we do not permit non-Jewish Funerals or religious symbols of other religions.

Simple – Serve the community that comes under the tent of Abraham and Sarah.

Len Lawrence

 

From: Rick Light [mailto:rickli...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 6:28 AM
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

 

As the Board of Directors of the Chevra Kadisha of Northern New Mexico reviews the new manual of policies and practices (mentioned in previous posts), they have asked what others have done, specifically in regard to (1) policies related to transgender deaths, and (2) policies related to burial of non-Jewish spouses of Jews. Anyone have policies in place about these, or have guidelines in place? What have other chevrot done to prepare for such deaths?

--

[stuart.kelman]

Ric - check out the book: A Place in the Tent.

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 6:27 AM, Rick Light <rickli...@gmail.com> wrote:

As the Board of Directors of the Chevra Kadisha of Northern New Mexico reviews the new manual of policies and practices (mentioned in previous posts), they have asked what others have done, specifically in regard to (1) policies related to transgender deaths, and (2) policies related to burial of non-Jewish spouses of Jews. Anyone have policies in place about these, or have guidelines in place? What have other chevrot done to prepare for such deaths?

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "jewish-funerals" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/jewish-funerals/-/RrUu5lKbvxQJ.
To post to this group, send email to jewish-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jewish-funera...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals?hl=en.

--
stuart

[Aptaker]

We don't have anything "formal" written down, but our group (Tel Shalom Burial Association, Inc.) has done the following: the non-Jewish spouse, regardless of his/her religion or level of practice, can be buried with a Jewish spouse provided there is some known history that the non-Jewish spouse was involved in helping the Jewish spouse maintain their Jewish identity and/or they were instrumental in helping to raise children in the Jewish faith and/or were involved in synagogue life above and beyond what would be expected for just routine visits by a non-Jewish spouse.  I know these guidelines are a bit vague and arbitrary, but as we've dealt with this in the past it generally presents itself clearly.  Some examples: a non-Jewish spouse is often the one who got the kids to Hebrew school on a regular basis, participated in the field trips, guided the kids through b'nei mitzvah training, volunteered at channukha bazaar, etc.  He/she was at the synagogue with the Jewish spouse for the community sedars, sukkot, Torah study, high holidays on some regular basis to the point where others know this non-Jewish spouse is involoved.  Usually, by the time the need arises, the rabbi(s), cantor(s), religious school director, etc. know who was involved and who was not.  And while we allow the non-Jewish spouse's minister, etc. to be at the funeral, and say something of a non-denominal/secular nature, they are not permitted to officiate in any way.  I can't really think of any recent examples where we've had a Jew who wanted their non-Jewish spouse who was not involved, to be buried in the cemetery with them.  They usually understand our policy and have not pushed the issue.  I'm curious to hear others with something more formal or "objective" if that's possible?

Rich

---

From: "Rick Light" <rickli...@gmail.com>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

[Dr. Joel Etra]

In the best of all worlds, Lynn, you are right. Unfortunately, you can be sued. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

[Kerry Swartz]

Len,
Just to clarify, Mt. Sinai will bury non-Jewish spouses and/or children but what sort of funeral do they receive then?

[Kerry Swartz]

Hi Rick,
I might offer the following link:
http://shaarzahav.org/
Congregation Sha'ar Zahav in San Francisco seems to be one of the most progressive and inclusive Shuls I've seen.
"We are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and heterosexual Jews, together with family and friends, both Jewish and non-Jewish." They are even publish their own Siddur. Contacting them (Rabbi Camille Shira Angel) might offer some interesting insights.

Rick Light

August 6, 2012 6:27 am

[Dr. Joel Etra]

I'm glad this is working out for you but it seems to me that it invites problems.  I really do not think most of these criteria are anybody's business. They also do not reflect what goes on in the home or the nature of the marriage. Furthermore, none of them would make a person Jewish so what do they have to do with where you might be buried. 

Dr Joel Etra

860.866.5508

Sent from my iPad

[libby]

This is how we do it too, including the non-Jewish spouse who has been
involved with the Jewish community. We do have general guidelines in
writing, very close to what Rich wrote, with the understanding that if
there is any question, it's up to the rabbi. So far, we haven't had any
problems with this policy over the years.

Libby

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From: *"Rick Light" <rickli...@gmail.com>
> *To: *jewish-...@googlegroups.com
> *Sent: *Monday, August 6, 2012 6:27:49 AM
> *Subject: *[jewish-funerals] Re: question

[libby]

Len -- very well said as usual.

Libby

Lawrence, Leonard wrote:
>
> I have very simple answers and guidelines in effect at Mount Sinai in
> Los Angeles.
>
> 1. Transgender? A Jew is a Jew and deserves a Jewish burial;
>

> 2. NON-Jewish spouses � We are commanded to not separate families. WE

> will bury the non-Jewish spouse or children of a Jew but we do not
> permit non-Jewish Funerals or religious symbols of other religions.
>

> Simple � Serve the community that comes under the tent of Abraham and
> Sarah.
>
> *Len Lawrence*
>
> *From:* Rick Light [mailto:rickli...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, August 06, 2012 6:28 AM
> *To:* jewish-...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [jewish-funerals] Re: question

>
> As the Board of Directors of the Chevra Kadisha of Northern New Mexico
> reviews the new manual of policies and practices (mentioned in
> previous posts), they have asked what others have done, specifically
> in regard to (1) policies related to transgender deaths, and (2)
> policies related to burial of non-Jewish spouses of Jews. Anyone have
> policies in place about these, or have guidelines in place? What have
> other chevrot done to prepare for such deaths?
>
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[Lynne Sandler]

Hello,

 

Our daughter lives in San Francisco, not too far from that synagogue. We have been there any number of times when we’ve visited her – they are indeed very inclusive and warm. Their siddur covers just about everything you can think of. The rabbi is a gem.

 

Lynne Sandler

Agudas Achim Congregation

Alexandria, VA

 

 

From: jewish-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kerry Swartz

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 1:12 PM
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com

--

[Lynn Greenhough]

Sued? Sorry I am not following.

Lynn

 

---

From: jewish-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Joel Etra
Sent: August-07-12 8:25 AM
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

 

In the best of all worlds, Lynn, you are right. Unfortunately, you can be sued. 

[Lawrence, Leonard]

We only do Jewish Funerals.  But be clear – a Jewish Funeral is subject to many variations – the basics are always followed but families can bring the spirit and life of the deceased into play. For example – we had a family (1 Jewish, one not) that own a number of Mexican Restaurants. The family requested a Mariachi Band at the service – we permitted it in the chapel but not out in the cemetery.

 

Our mission is to protect and honor the deceased and SERVE THE LIVING!

 

We do not permit non-Jewish clergy to officiate nor do we permit any religious symbols other than Jewish symbols.

 

Len Lawrence

 

From: Kerry Swartz [mailto:kerry....@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:03 AM
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

 

Len,

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "jewish-funerals" group.

[cil...@comcast.net]

RE: transgender: It's not quite as simple as that. Of course, if they're Jewish, we want them to have a Jewish burial, but there are special circumstances that should be considered, in advance, if possible. For instance, if the deceased person identified as a woman, but has male anatomy, how do you decide whether the men or the women should perform the taharah? Which set of tachrichim (male or female) do you use? What gender do you use in the prayers? Do you do anything differently if the surviving family members don't support the gender identity the person used when they were alive? Etc.

Susan

__________
Read my blog at http://www.jewishjournal.com/religiousandreform

---

From: "libby" <lbot...@comcast.net>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 7, 2012 7:28:14 AM

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

Len -- very well said as usual.

Libby

Lawrence, Leonard wrote:
>
> I have very simple answers and guidelines in effect at Mount Sinai in
> Los Angeles.
>
> 1. Transgender? A Jew is a Jew and deserves a Jewish burial;
>

> 2. NON-Jewish spouses – We are commanded to not separate families. WE

> will bury the non-Jewish spouse or children of a Jew but we do not
> permit non-Jewish Funerals or religious symbols of other religions.
>

> Simple – Serve the community that comes under the tent of Abraham and

[Deborah Brown]

Do you use hedges or some such thing between Jews and non-Jews in your cemetery, or do you really bury everyone together?

 

Deborah Brown

[Kerry Swartz]

Hi again Len,
I am not trying to appear dense and I apologize if I am coming off this way. I only trying to clarify something . . .
Since you only do Jewish Funerals, would the non-Jewish spouse also receive a Jewish funeral?
If you don't do anything but Jewish Funerals and you don't perform Jewish funerals for non Jewish spouses, what do their funerals generally look like (without alternative clergy and symbols)?
Thanks for being patient here,
Kerry

Lawrence, Leonard

August 7, 2012 12:40 pm

Kerry Swartz

August 7, 2012 10:02 am

Len,
Just to clarify, Mt. Sinai will bury non-Jewish spouses and/or children but what sort of funeral do they receive then?

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Lawrence, Leonard

August 6, 2012 9:03 am

I have very simple answers and guidelines in effect at Mount Sinai in Los Angeles.

 

1.      Transgender? A Jew is a Jew and deserves a Jewish burial;

2.      NON-Jewish spouses – We are commanded to not separate families. WE will bury the non-Jewish spouse or children of a Jew but we do not permit non-Jewish Funerals or religious symbols of other religions.

Simple – Serve the community that comes under the tent of Abraham and Sarah.

Len Lawrence

 

From: Rick Light [mailto:rickli...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 6:28 AM
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

 

As the Board of Directors of the Chevra Kadisha of Northern New Mexico reviews the new manual of policies and practices (mentioned in previous posts), they have asked what others have done, specifically in regard to (1) policies related to transgender deaths, and (2) policies related to burial of non-Jewish spouses of Jews. Anyone have policies in place about these, or have guidelines in place? What have other chevrot done to prepare for such deaths?

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Rick Light

August 6, 2012 6:27 am

As the Board of Directors of the Chevra Kadisha of Northern New Mexico reviews the new manual of policies and practices (mentioned in previous posts), they have asked what others have done, specifically in regard to (1) policies related to transgender deaths, and (2) policies related to burial of non-Jewish spouses of Jews. Anyone have policies in place about these, or have guidelines in place? What have other chevrot done to prepare for such deaths?

--
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Laurie Dinerstein-Kurs

June 7, 2012 10:09 am

FIRST, I would share that I am so disappointed that I could not attend the conference.,...I am certain beyond all doubt that it was as great - if not GREATER than the 9 before!!


SECOND, By any chance, has any chevre group actually written their policies -  guide book - or by laws - on what the "rules" are for their particular chevre?  Such as "we will perform Tahara EVEN if the mait will be cremated...or the opposite...We will NOT provide tahara if we are aware the mait will be cremated?    Or, questions of putting items in the casket, clothing vs shrouds....etc.

Our group would like to formulate a guidebook...so that no matter who is on the tahara team...they will be aware there are policies in place and they not have to worry "on the spot" as to what to do.  It will save those "on the spot" phone calls to David or others...

If any chevres have such a plan in place...would you mind sharing it with me so that  1) we don't have to reinvent the wheel, and 2) get some ideas we may not have thought of!!

tHANK YOU,
LAURIE --

[Sandy Lassen]

You honor the request of the deceased as they have lived their life by whichever sexual orientation they have chosen.  It is as simple as that !

 

Sandy Lassen

Executive Director

Shir Chadash Conservative Congregation

3737 W. Esplanade Ave N

Metairie, Louisiana  70002

504-889-1144

[Lawrence, Leonard]

Together -no hedges

Len Lawrence

[Jacob Malki]

Very interesting: "so many variations on the same music".  

I wonder whether the creators of new minhagim follow pondered  halakhic, social, ideological principles or follow "the need of the moment".
Jacob

[Aptaker]

We haven't had problems that I know of probably because the issue comes up so, so infrequently, and when it does it's been fairly clear to us for the following reasons: a Jew who marries a non-Jew, but their Judaism is important enough to them during their lifetime that they would want to be buried in accordance with Jewish custom, is more likely to marry someone who supports that person (and the children if applicable) in their Jewish growth.  The secular, indifferent Jew who has a non-Jewish spouse (who is not involved at all), probably does not seek out a Jewish cemetery or our burial services.  So, it may be that people coming to us are "self-selected" and makes it easy for us to include the spouse.  As I said, I can't really recall anyone we've had to turn away.

Interesting issue about the criteria not being anybody's business.  We certainly don't keep a scorecard or interview anyone, and most case are just obvious because we tend to know the families over the years as anyone might know the members of their congregations (assuming they are affiliated).  But since we are a non-profit organization in the State of California, receiving State/Federal exemption benefits as such, maybe knowing someone's religion is none of our business.  Maybe we can't "discriminate" based on religion?  Can a non-profit Jewish Cemetery or Burial Association, restrict who can be buried based on religion?

rich

[Aptaker]

Getting back to Rick's original question on guidelines, while "a Jew is a Jew" and honoring "the request of the deceased as they have lived their life" are foundational principles to strive for (assuming there is a "request" by the deceased), I agree with Susan that it is not that simple, especially when it comes to trying to put something in writing to "guide" those in the Chevra when there may not be others around to get advice from or where no requests have been made.  Yes, a Jew is a Jew, but there are male and female Jews and the tahara liturgy makes this clear (again, Susan hit a core issue here).

To just use the term "transgender" generically across the board (and "transexual" will add a further layer of complexity) will be woefully inadequate when it comes right down to the ritual, especially if we are trying to treat the met(ah) with honor and respect.  There are men who live as women, without altering  their anatomy, there are men who surgically change their anatomy, and men who change using female hormones, but no surgery, and so on, the permutations for men and women transgender/-sexual are too numerous to list.

So, when do men do the tahara and when do women?  If I were writing a guide, I might consider the following basic rule: the tahara group is responsible for preparing the body, and G-d will take care of the soul.  Therefore, the body, if it is a male (genetically) with male genitalia, I would recommend tahara be done by men.  BUT, there is flexibility here in that woman can do tahara for men in extenuating situations, of which this would probably qualify.  So if it is KNOWN that the individual wants tahara done by woman, that is permitted.  If the person lived/dressed as a female, I don't see a problem with using female tachrichim, anymore than we'd use street clothes, or a favorite shirt, etc.; the clothing part of the ritual seems to be a more "flexible" issue among the discussions I've seen here.  In terms of the blessings, I'd defer to clergy or others more familiar with it whether it make a difference.  If the male identified as female, I don't see a problem reciting the female blessings.

It's more complicated when a genetically born female identifies as male, dresses as a man, hormonally changes and/or surgically does whatever is possible to become male.  Again keeping with the principle that we take care of the body, G-d the soul, I'd recommend that women do this tahara--the body is that of a female--no matter how it appears.  Again however, the male tachrichim and male blessings could be recited as that is how the person lived their life.  But, it doesn't seem right for a man to do tahara on a woman's body, regardless of how the person saw themselves.  No matter what changes the surgeon's knife or doctor's Rx brought about, the body is still genetically a female.  (This might not be rational at all--but it's my first time thinking about this, so that's where I am tonight).

Okay, this can get really involved, so I'm stopping.  Hasn't this topic come up at one of the past meetings?  Seems like someone would have thought about this before now.

Rich

p.s. Of course, there is always our other core underlying principle: do the best you can.

[Ilene Rubenstein]

Several months ago there was a discussion concerning “body farms” where bodies were observed as they decomposed for forensic purposes. I was very busy at the time, and didn’t have a chance to join the discussion, but haven’t forgotten about it. I had several reactions, some of which mirrored those which were already expressed, and some which varied slightly from how others reacted. If I misquote anyone, please forgive. As I said, it’s been a while.

 

Like several others, my initial reaction was “yuck!”. It seemed a terrible violation of Kavod Ha’Met. But, as my revulsion calmed a bit, another teaching came to mind: “Justice, Justice shall you pursue”.  So, what to do when two important precepts collide?

 

Kerry Swartz and Deborah Brown’s hard-to-read, but enlightening insights pointed out that there is some question as to whether actual cadavers need to be used to train medical students, or for that matter, for forensic purposes. I have no background in medicine so I cannot speak to this point, but I do recall my own training as a social worker and there really was no comparison between class discussion and role playing and the actual experience of sitting in the room with a client/patient. The scientists will have to make that determination.

 

My personal reaction to this situation was the same as my feelings about organ donation. (Relatively) recent Rabbinic decisions have stated that Jews can, and indeed should, donate organs in order to save a life. However, a clear distinction was made between donating organ(s) to a specific person whose life is in jeopardy vs. donating one’s body to science. While I appreciate the consideration that must have gone into these decisions, and certainly see them as a step in the right direction, I am not entirely comfortable with them.

 

I think it was Rick Aptaker who expressed the same feeling I have had for a long time:  although our work is called “chesed shel emet”, it really isn’t. We receive such spiritual rewards for the work we do. The real chesed shel emet is reflected in the final selfless act of donating one’s body – whether it be specific organs or the entire body for the benefit of others. Donating it for the purpose that some unknown person in the future may have a better shot at life seems to magnify, not diminish the mitzvah and would surely merit kavod at a memorial service.

 

Bottom line:  Jews benefit from advances in medical and forensic science as much as gentiles, and since we are all created in G-d’s image, how can it be ok for gentile bodies to be used and studied in this manner, but not Jewish ones?

[Israel Man]

Shalom All,

 

I am amazed that some people (with good intentions) in this forum take upon themselves to make deep halachic decisions or even to argue about them with no knowledge of the halachic literature just because they happen to volunteer to serve in some committee.

The rabbis throughout the generations since Talmudic times struggled with the Trans-Gender (Androgynous) many questions. There is no unified decision here as all the rabbis are in the opinion that we don't know enough about the physical and mental makeup of the subject but there is an honest attempt to help and show kindness to the person and his family. Here are some scholarly halachic responsa (some in English and some in Hebrew) dealing with the subject.

 

http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/journal/cohen-1.htm

 

Also interesting reading is in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenderism_and_religion

 

http://www.medethics.org.il/articles/ASSIA/ASSIA1/R001142.asp

[DOC]

עוד בעניין קבורה של א/נשים לאחר ניתוח לשינוי מין 

      www.kamoha.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/טרנסגנדר2-1.doc

       http://www.responsa.co.il/searchg/%D7%90%D7%A0%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%92%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A1.aspx

 

Israel Man

From: Sandy Lassen <sa...@shirchadash.org>
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2012 7:41 AM
Subject: RE: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

You honor the request of the deceased as they have lived their life by whichever sexual orientation they have chosen.  It is as simple as that !

 

Sandy Lassen

Executive Director

Shir Chadash Conservative Congregation

3737 W. Esplanade Ave N

Metairie, Louisiana  70002

504-889-1144

 

From: jewish-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of cil...@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 5:53 PM
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Re: question

 

RE: transgender: It's not quite as simple as that. Of course, if they're Jewish, we want them to have a Jewish burial, but there are special circumstances that should be considered, in advance, if possible. For instance, if the deceased person identified as a woman, but has male anatomy, how do you decide whether the men or the women should perform the taharah? Which set of tachrichim (male or female) do you use? What gender do you use in the prayers? Do you do anything differently if the surviving family members don't support the gender identity the person used when they were alive? Etc.

Susan

__________
Read my blog at http://www.jewishjournal.com/religiousandreform

[Lawrence, Leonard]

Allow me to clarify.

 

Typically the Jewish spouse if the survivor plans the funeral with our staff. The family will either have a rabbi or we will suggest one that does funerals for non-Jews. The family with the rabbi will then “design” the service and select which rituals they wish to use. Typically they will say the El Malai and will say Kaddish at the grave side. Other prayers may be said in English and reading s will be done that are picked by the family. At times a non-Jewish clergy will deliver the eulogy as a friend of the family – with no religious overtones.

The burial will be typical of our burials with the family and friends carrying the casket and filling at least part of the grave.

 

If the Jewish spouse dies first the non-Jewish spouse will typically work with us and the rabbi and we will do a very typical Jewish funeral with all of the tradition prayers and readings.

 

Hope this clarifies the issue

[Lawrence, Leonard]

“The need of the moment” does not play into our policies and procedures. When a request or need comes up that is outside of our norm we always go to our halchic expert - a well known and respected traditional rabbi.

 

The base of all of our minhagim come from long and fruit full discussions with rabbis and community leaders who have based their rulings and policies on living Judaism. In addition we can accommodate all streams – from the most secular to the most orthodox.

 

By way of example on the traditional side  – just last night I received a call from a traditional rabbi asking for a late day funeral the next day for a deceased that was being flown back to LA from NY arriving at 2 PM at the airport. We already had services scheduled around the time that the family might arrive but we agreed to do the late funeral, moved staff from one Park to the other and met the needs of the living. Serve the living.

 

Len Lawrence