"JKoala is an open source project aimed at porting AWT / Swing under Mac OS X / Cocoa"

[B Smith-Mannschott]

http://www.jkoala.org/

"JKoala is an open source project aimed at porting AWT / Swing under
Mac OS X / Cocoa. It will be distributed under the GNU GPL license
with classpath exception."

"Since Apple deprecated its implementation of Java under Mac OS X,
OpenJDK is the only option to run Java under Lion, the future Mac OS X
version. But OpenJDK still lacks an integration with the Mac OS X
graphical interface. To ensure a good user experience with Java
graphical applications, AWT / Swing must be ported under Mac OS X /
Cocoa, and this is the purpose of the JKoala project."

The author is looking for donations to fund the effort.

What do you all think?

// Ben

[Ricky Clarkson]

Possible scam. He can surely start without money.

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>

[B Smith-Mannschott]

Yes, hmmm... you pose an interesting social problem in bootstrapping
such a project. What might a reasonable proof of concept and good
intentions (that could be completed in, say, less than a month)
consist of?

I mean, apart from writing two books (one on Java, one on Swing, both
in French), creating and maintaining a 3d-modeller in Java, and having
implemented a headless pure java AWT, what else should he be expected
to provide?

// Ben

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 10/26/2010 10:50 AM, Ricky Clarkson wrote:
> Possible scam. He can surely start without money.

I'd be careful, indeed, but I don't necessarily agree with the second
sentence. Chris has posted a very nice recap of the current state:

http://www.subfurther.com/blog/?p=1305

including this paragraph:

Aside: when volunteers aren�t enough, the next step is to get out the
checkbook and call in mercenaries. I looked at javax.sound
<http://download.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/overview-summary.html>
yesterday and estimated it would take me 4-6 weeks, full-time, to do a
production-quailty port using Core Audio. I�ll bid the project out at
$20,000. Sign a contract and I�ll contribute the sources to any project
you like (OpenJDK, Harmony, whatever). You know where to reach me. And
I�m not holding my breath.

Because, yes, we have a volunteering problem. Landon Fuller and some
other people did a very good inception job two years ago, but there were
no followers. So, money can be a solution. Of course, put in the way
JKoala put them, it's a matter of trust about the person behind it (I've
not looked at who he is). The $50,000 figure makes some sense, if you
compare it with the $20,000 for javax.sound alone - indeed, for the
whole Cocoa port I think something in the area of $200,000 would make
more sense.

If Oracle is not interested in maintaining a port by itself, it would be
not a bad idea to give some sponsorship (I mean, not to JKoala
necessarily, but to a some better organised team, a contract-based
effort, which should include Landon if he agrees). Probably not all the
money, they could just tell they're available to offer a part and I
think some other actor from the community could join.

--
f.g.

[hugh4life]

On Oct 26, 3:37 am, B Smith-Mannschott <bsmith.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.jkoala.org/

>
> What do you all think?
>
> // Ben

Well since project jigsaw isn't going to be here for a couple of
years, I wish Oracle would acquire and distribute for free the
Excelsior JET AOT compiler to make it much easier to use non-swing GUI
packages.

[Jo Voordeckers]

Why reinvent the wheel: http://swingwt.sourceforge.net/ 

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- Jo

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 10/26/2010 01:13 PM, hugh4life wrote:
>
> Well since project jigsaw isn't going to be here for a couple of
> years, I wish Oracle would acquire and distribute for free the
> Excelsior JET AOT compiler to make it much easier to use non-swing GUI
> packages.
>

In which way would make that job easier?

--
f.g.

[Chris Adamson]

Scott Kovatch, who worked on SWT for OS X at Apple, had this to say to
say about the scope of such a project (http://twitter.com/#!/skovatch/
status/28570794726):

"@kirillcool 5 FTE's took one year to create #SWT Cocoa port; 4 of
the 5 knew the API inside out. A new AWT would take at least as long."

5 engineers, at California salaries, benefits, and taxes, is probably
around US$1million a year. So that's where I would estimate the price
of a production-quality AWT/Swing port.

As for me, what's in my blog is just my going rate for an estimated 6
weeks of Core Audio work, with a little slippage worked in just in
case. I probably should have Fleischered(*) my rhetorical bid, but I
don't seriously expect any takers. javax.sound isn't worth it to
anybody.

(* - "to overbid a job, in hopes of not getting it", c.f.,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_(1940s_cartoons)#Development_and_initial_entries
)

--Chris

On Oct 26, 6:29 am, Fabrizio Giudici <fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it>
wrote:

> On 10/26/2010 10:50 AM, Ricky Clarkson wrote:> Possible scam.  He can surely start without money.
>

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 10/26/2010 09:42 PM, Chris Adamson wrote:
> Scott Kovatch, who worked on SWT for OS X at Apple, had this to say to
> say about the scope of such a project (http://twitter.com/#!/skovatch/
> status/28570794726):
>
> "@kirillcool 5 FTE's took one year to create #SWT Cocoa port; 4 of
> the 5 knew the API inside out. A new AWT would take at least as long."
>
> 5 engineers, at California salaries, benefits, and taxes, is probably

> around US$1million a year. So that's where I would estimate the pricet

> of a production-quality AWT/Swing port.

But I'm not talking of redoing the same thing Apple did. As fas as I
know, Quaqua (100% pure Java Aqua widgets) would be ok and I'm just
thinking of a "lightweight" (if we can say so) porting so at least
JWindow and JFrame run inside a Cocoa window.

--
f.g.

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 10/26/2010 12:29 PM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
> (I've not looked at who he is).

Ok, precisation needed! With the above sentence, I meant that I didn't
know who was the JKoala author - I mean, I didn't know *his name* (I
hope now it's clear). He's just written to me, and he's Emmanuel
Puybaret, who I do know by fame (he's a frequent poster at the Java-dev
mailing list at Apple), and he's got a very reputable CV (e.g., have a
look at
http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/porters-dev/2007-November/000001.html).
In particular, Emmanuel is one of the guys who manage in delivering a
functional Swing-based application that is also pleasing and user friendly:

http://www.sweethome3d.com/index.jsp

He's not subscribing this group and asked me to forward this message:

As I'm not registered in this group I can't write and wanted to state clearly that JKoala is no scam.

We must must move forward, and stop waiting for others to get the job done.
As said on JKoala web site, I would be glad to help, but I have to eat also. That's as simple as that...
And you're right, this might cost much more than $50,000., but don't worry I'm not greedy.;-)

Please forward this information in the group.

Have a nice evening
--
Emmanuel Puybaret
Email :puyb...@eteks.com
Web :http://www.eteks.com
http://www.jkoala.org

[dun...@oneeyedmen.com]

On Oct 26, 12:14 pm, Jo Voordeckers <jo.voordeck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why reinvent the wheel:http://swingwt.sourceforge.net/

So if Eclipse runs on OpenJDK, and SwingWT just needs SWT, then Mac
Swing on OpenJDK is a done deal - just needs compiling and packaging?

Duncan

[Chris Adamson]

It's not just about the widgets. AWT and Swing need you to handle
event dispatch, layout, accessibility, and a few other things I'm
probably forgetting. I don't know how much of that you would pick up
from the Java sources in OpenJDK, and how much you'd have to do
yourself.

The other thing that makes this hard is that Cocoa has a "main thread"
that works pretty much like AWT-Event-Dispatch -- anything that
touches the UI has to be on this thread -- so Mac JNI calls for a lot
of careful coordination and use of performSelectorOnMainThread:.

On Oct 26, 5:15 pm, Fabrizio Giudici <fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it>
wrote:

[Cédric Beust ♔]

I am pretty comfortable with the fact that it's not a scam, but come on: does he really expect to receive random anonymous donations that will add up to $50,000?

That part seems ridiculous to me, or maybe just extraordinarily naïve.

-- 

Cédric

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Cédric

[Josh McDonald]

If 1000 java-loving mac-based developers can't cough up €50 each, Apple did the right thing.

The JKoala guy needs a friend in the US to set up a Kickstarter.com page, I'd pony up €50.

2010/10/27 Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com>

--
"Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."

Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald
   -  jo...@joshmcdonald.info
   -  http://twitter.com/sophistifunk
   -  http://flex.joshmcdonald.info/

[Cédric Beust ♔]

2010/10/26 Emmanuel Puybaret <puyb...@eteks.com>

> I am pretty comfortable with the fact that it's not a scam, but come on: does he really expect to receive random anonymous donations that will add up to $50,000?
>
> That part seems ridiculous to me, or maybe just extraordinarily naïve.

As we say in French, "La chance sourit aux audacieux" :-)

I would argue that what you are doing is not exactly audacieux. Audacieux would be for you to do the port and then present it to the world and expect to get paid :-)

 

I just try my chance, and stop dreaming that others will do the job.
It would be naïve to do it for free, and I couldn't afford it anyway.
By the way, I'm sure it won't cost $1,000,000.

Probably because you are vastly underestimating the amount of effort involved and also not factoring in all the non-straight-coding aspect of it.

Good luck anyway.

--
Cédric

[Josh McDonald]

€50k is a good chunk of change. Probably not enough to get Steve's/Sun's approval on the code (which I'm sure you needed to call it Java back then), but it could definitely be enough to get something that works well enough for most uses, and can be added to by the community.

-Josh

2010/10/27 Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com>

--
Cédric

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[Rob Ross]

A project this big needs full-time technical leadership. Without it, there's little chance of everyone's little contribution amounting to much useful code. But with technical leadership, work can be planned and allocated to all available resources. I don't have the time, nor the specific experience to be in a lead position on this project, but I can, and fully intend, to contribute.

So it's not just that one guy is getting paid to do this full time; it's that this one full time guy can probably help direct the efforts of say 4-7 non-paid contributors. You repeat this with a few more people working full time, suddenly you've got a formidable software team.

Rob

[Josh McDonald]

What if the new JFX scene graph was ported to Cocoa, could an AWT implementation be built atop that? It'd probably mean a smaller mac-specific port assuming the non-Java portions of the new stack are mainly just interfacing with OpenGL? 

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[Rob Ross]

The main problem with that approach is that such an API (the new JavaFX scene graph) does not exist in Java. It was written in JavaFX Script, a separate language, but they plan on porting it to pure Java APIs during the next year. So there would be at least a year before there's even an API spec nailed down from which you could create a Cocoa port.

I think creating a native integration with Mac OS is going to be hard enough without trying to track a moving target that has zero installation at this moment in time.

Rob

On Oct 26, 2010, at 3:56 PM, Josh McDonald wrote:

> What if the new JFX scene graph was ported to Cocoa, could an AWT implementation be built atop that? It'd probably mean a smaller mac-specific port assuming the non-Java portions of the new stack are mainly just interfacing with OpenGL?
>
> On 27 October 2010 08:38, Rob Ross <rob....@gmail.com> wrote:
> A project this big needs full-time technical leadership. Without it, there's little chance of everyone's little contribution amounting to much useful code. But with technical leadership, work can be planned and allocated to all available resources. I don't have the time, nor the specific experience to be in a lead position on this project, but I can, and fully intend, to contribute.
>
> So it's not just that one guy is getting paid to do this full time; it's that this one full time guy can probably help direct the efforts of say 4-7 non-paid contributors. You repeat this with a few more people working full time, suddenly you've got a formidable software team.
>
> Rob
>
> On Oct 26, 2010, at 3:26 PM, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > 2010/10/26 Emmanuel Puybaret <puyb...@eteks.com>
> > > I am pretty comfortable with the fact that it's not a scam, but come on: does he really expect to receive random anonymous donations that will add up to $50,000?
> > >
> > > That part seems ridiculous to me, or maybe just extraordinarily naïve.
> >
> > As we say in French, "La chance sourit aux audacieux" :-)
> >
> > I would argue that what you are doing is not exactly audacieux. Audacieux would be for you to do the port and then present it to the world and expect to get paid :-)
> >
> > I just try my chance, and stop dreaming that others will do the job.
> > It would be naïve to do it for free, and I couldn't afford it anyway.
> > By the way, I'm sure it won't cost $1,000,000.
> >
> > Probably because you are vastly underestimating the amount of effort involved and also not factoring in all the non-straight-coding aspect of it.
> >
> > Good luck anyway.
> >
> > --
> > Cédric
>
>
> --

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 10/27/2010 12:56 AM, Josh McDonald wrote:
> What if the new JFX scene graph was ported to Cocoa, could an AWT
> implementation be built atop that? It'd probably mean a smaller
> mac-specific port assuming the non-Java portions of the new stack are
> mainly just interfacing with OpenGL?

Who would be supposed to do the port? In my understanding, JFX relies on
Java2D, that is on the JDK... So it's the other way around.

Back to JKoala. Well, on this side there's no audacious people (with the
exception of Landon Fuller et al.), otherwise SoyLatte would have
received significant contributions in the past two years. So, I assume
that no people will move without money. Emmanuel's statement is clear
and honest and he's putting his face on it. He's got excellent skills.
In the worst case, if he fails people will just lose 50 EUR, which is
basically one dinner at a good restaurant, and in any case we will have
*something* using Cocoa and not a clean sheet. If he finds some
cul-de-sac in development, we will know that and maybe somebody else
will be able to go on with another route.

So I'm personally endorsing his attempt and I donated my 50 EUR (I need
to lose weight anyway). Maybe some corporate, including the big ones,
finds the time to give some more bucks?

--
f.g.

[Rob Ross]

What is now different is that without someone doing something, there is no longer a future for JVM on the Mac, at least not in the way we've become used to it.

Before, OpenJDK on the Mac was just "oh that's cool they can run that." But now it's a matter of (software) life or death.

So the situation has drastically changed.

I'll be contributing 50 EUR also, in addition to helping contribute to this project as best I can.

Rob

[RogerV]

US $1 million to get a quality AWT/Swing port to Mac OS X?

Hmmm, Larry probably spends more than that every year just on boat wax

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 10/27/2010 02:11 AM, RogerV wrote:
> US $1 million to get a quality AWT/Swing port to Mac OS X?
>
> Hmmm, Larry probably spends more than that every year just on boat wax
>

LOL, but let's try to be serious. Larry spends much more than that for
his own pleasure, but we're discussing about Oracle spending, not
Larry's. The most immediate logical consequence is that if Oracle needs
to spend $1M on that, the thing must generate more than $1M in revenues.
Would it happen?

--
f.g.

[Rob Ross]

How about this for a business case:

1. 50% of Java developers use Apple hardware to develop Java apps (*for sake of argument, based on anecdotal observation)
2. Netbeans will no longer run for 50% of Java developers, but Eclipse will continue to work.
3. Using Eclipse makes it easer to develop apps that integrate with WebSphere and pureScale/POWER7/ DB2.
4. Every app developed for WebSphere is one less app developed for WebLogic, and one less coat of wax for Larry's boat.
5. ...

How's that for a start?

Rob

[Josh McDonald]

Keep in mind also, Oracle's middleware comes with its own development tools, which are all based on JDeveloper. Without a Mac JVM, Mac-based developers won't be able to use all the integrated development software. Whether that's enough people to justify the cost is up to the bean counters at Oracle, but it's definitely > 0.

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[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Rob Ross <rob....@gmail.com> wrote:

How about this for a business case:

1. 50% of Java developers use Apple hardware to develop Java apps (*for sake of argument, based on anecdotal observation)

I think that number might be accurate for the US but probably much lower in the rest of the world.

--
Cédric

[Chris Adamson]

I estimated it at 5 to 10%, and Kirill tweeted back that he thought
even that was too high. My perception is that the Mac has almost zero
adoption as a Java development machine outside N. America, Europe, and
Australasia, and there are a heck of a lot of Java developers in India
and China.

On Oct 26, 10:46 pm, Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com> wrote:

[Neil Bartlett]

On Oct 27, 2:00 am, Rob Ross <rob.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How about this for a business case:
>
> 1. 50% of Java developers use Apple hardware to develop Java apps (*for sake of argument, based on anecdotal observation)

Actually I think it's closer to 10%. Your anecdotal observation was
doubtless made at various developer conferences. Remember the vast
majority of Java developers do not attend conferences. They work in
cubicles, coding on Windows desktops and deploying to Linux servers.

> 2. Netbeans will no longer run for 50% of Java developers, but Eclipse will continue to work.

Again the percentage of NetBeans users is closer to 15% I believe.

> 3. Using Eclipse makes it easer to develop apps that integrate with WebSphere and pureScale/POWER7/ DB2.

Eclipse also makes it easy to develop apps that integrate with
WebLogic, GlassFish, Oracle Database etc. Oracle is an Eclipse
Foundation member and have an Enterprise Pack for Eclipse. Pre-
acquisition Sun also offered lots of Eclipse-based tooling for JEE,
GlassFish, even JavaFX.

> 4. Every app developed for WebSphere is one less app developed for WebLogic, and one less coat of wax for Larry's boat.

Can't argue with this one :-)

[Chris Adamson]

I just got an e-mail from a party with a big stake in how this plays
out, and I'm wondering how to give them a useful response, without
speculating or sending them in the wrong direction. So here are a few
thoughts currently in my head, with some questions that you guys and
girls can probably help with.

1. Likelihood that Java completely goes away in Mac OS X 10.7 ("Lion")

The wording of Apple's deprecation statement certainly seems to
prepare developers for Lion shipping without an Apple-provided Java,
and the timing (9 months out) is consistent with the idea that the
Java team is now being reassigned to other Lion development tasks.
So, if there's no Apple Java, one of the following likely happens

a. Apple contributes their code to OpenJDK
b. Oracle adds Mac to their list of supported platforms
c. A third-party effort -- commercial or open-source, sponsored or
volunteer -- successfully delivers a Mac port in time for Lion
d. Third-party efforts fail or are not attempted, and there is no
production-quality JVM/JDK available for Lion

My IMHOs:
a. I think this is highly unlikely. It's not obvious that Apple even
could contribute sources derived from the commercial version of Java,
let alone that it would want to.

b. I'm a little more optimistic on this point than a lot of people.
What makes me think Oracle could rush in to the rescue is the fact
that they didn't kill JavaFX when they could (and, IMHO, should)
have. So what's the point of JavaFX if there's not a Mac JVM to run
it on? Running on Linux is cold comfort -- PCWorld's Linux columnist
just acknowledged that Linux on the desktop is dead <http://
www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/207999/desktop_linux_the_dream_is_dead.html?tk=hp_new>,
and even James Gosling agrees with him <http://nighthacks.com/roller/
jag/entry/desktop_linux_the_dream_is>. With no Mac VM, JavaFX is
effectively a Windows-only product, and its value proposition becomes
"less popular than Flash and Silverlight, less cross-platform, and not
even as good." Anyone can see that's pointless. Of course, Oracle
might see that too and kill JavaFX next… but for the time being,
they're still ostensibly in the desktop game.

c. and d. are the biggies, and what everyone's talking about. It
seems like there are multiple places where this development could be
happening -- JKoala, Soy Latte, OpenJDK, and possibly others -- and it
seems like all those parties really ought to talk to each other and
see who, if anyone, has the ball. There's a frenzy of interest and a
desire to get started, but they probably need leadership, a plan, and
an accurate assessment of what they hope to get done.

2. What if this were done as an official part of OpenJDK?

Factual question: when you build OpenJDK on Windows, does the
resulting JVM have a native Windows AWT library? Meaning, is there
code in there that specifically builds against the Windows Foundation
Classes (or whatever their UI toolkit is nowadays), and is presumably
#ifdef'ed around on other platforms? If so, couldn't the same be done
for Mac, if there is sufficient development support? I guess my
question is that since the Mac JVM/JDK has always been a separate
project, we are assuming it will always be that way, but it doesn't
necessarily have to be, if OpenJDK itself decides to add Mac as a
supported platform.

3. How much work are we really looking at?

JKoala is seeking €50K, and thinks it'll take 1 to 2 years to finish
the job (not clear if that's with just Emmanuel and whatever code
contributions he can get, or if he's counting on getting other full-
time developers). As I wrote earlier, Scott Kovatch worked on the Mac
SWT while at Apple and Adobe, and said it took five full-time
employees a year to do the Cocoa version, which is why I would set my
baseline estimate as five person-years, or about US$1 million in
development costs.

A natural question is "can we do this bare-bones and leave stuff
out"? Presumably, people are thinking of the little-used AWT widgets…
nobody's going to miss java.awt.List, certainly not Swing
programmers. But I think this overestimates how much work is
skippable, and how much work is really required. Looking through the
Javadocs, what do you think is skippable:

java.awt - Even without heavy-weight components, you need the
lightweight Component, all the event stuff, layout, Toolkit, Java2D
stuff, font metrics, etc. Oh, and some Mac programmers still use AWT
menus because they're always at the top of the screen, rather than in-
wndow (the Swing default, but contrary to Mac UI conventions).
java.awt.color - Part of Java2D
java.awt.datatransfer, java.awt.dnd - Copy-and-paste, drag-and-drop.
Have to support these.
java.awt.event - Event handling. Must have.
java.awt.font - Part of Java2D
java.awt.geom - Part of Java2D
java.awt.im, java.awt.im.spi - Input methods, needed for
accessibility. Lose these and you likely can't develop for government
or education. So they really should be included.
java.awt.image - Part of Java2D
java.awt.image.renderable - Part of Java2D
java.awt.print - Printing support, part of Java2D
java.applet - Probably a practical requirement for the handful of
applets still out there, like the Facebook photo uploader. Also, do
JavaFX or Java WebStart depend on applet support?
javax.print.*- More printing-related classes
javax.sound.* - Audio support. Probably the most droppable of the Core
Java packages.
javax.swing.* - Most of this stuff is written in Java, but you might
have to write a new Mac look-and-feel (perhaps bring in Quaqua, or
fall back on Nimbus or Ocean).

I don't know if there's much in there that can be skipped or put off
to version 2, at least if the minimum metric is, say, to keep NetBeans
and InteliJ running. Maybe someone has a reason that this workload
isn't as bad as it looks. Also, there are probably other tasks that
aren't captured in APIs specifically, like more accessibility support
(tying into the Mac's screen reader, for example), file types and
double-clickable support, etc.

--Chris

[Chris Adamson]

BTW, I suppose I should stop referring to Soy Latte -- I think it got
rolled into OpenJDK's bsd-port subproject <http://openjdk.java.net/
projects/bsd-port/>, as that's where Landon Fuller has been directing
people, c.f., <http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-dev/2010/Oct/
msg00248.html>

--Chris

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 10/27/2010 04:09 PM, Chris Adamson wrote:
> I just got an e-mail from a party with a big stake in how this plays
> out, and I'm wondering how to give them a useful response, without
> speculating or sending them in the wrong direction. So here are a few
> thoughts currently in my head, with some questions that you guys and
> girls can probably help with.

I agree on all the four points - but I have to say that I made mine on
(a) - costs and legal issues with releasing Apple's code - after reading
your posts.

I'd like to throw into the discussion another piece of stuff. Emilian
Bold in a private communication referred to this:

http://openjdk.java.net/projects/caciocavallo/

I've heard of it, but it's probably one of the projects in the OpenJDK
cluster that I know the less. Among its goals there's the capability of
making easier and faster portings of AWT. Does somebody know at which
stage is it? Would it be something that could be useful in this situation?

--
f.g.

[Rob Ross]

I actually went to a BOF at JavaOne2010 to specifically find out if Caciocavallo could be used to port OpenJDK to the Mac.

The short answer is "no."

The main use-case of this project is to make it easy to port AWT/Java2D to mobile and embedded devices.

Rob

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 10/27/2010 07:54 PM, Rob Ross wrote:
> I actually went to a BOF at JavaOne2010 to specifically find out if Caciocavallo could be used to port OpenJDK to the Mac.
>
> The short answer is "no."
>
> The main use-case of this project is to make it easy to port AWT/Java2D to mobile and embedded devices.

BTW, one of the authors cited the Apple case:

http://www.jroller.com/neugens/entry/java_on_mac

--
f.g.

[Chris Adamson]

Dalibor just tweeted a status update on the bsd-port project from
Landon Fuller, in the context of whether JKoala could/should be
integrated with it at some point.

http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/bsd-port-dev/2010-October/001355.html

It's in response to Rob, who likes the one-focused-developer model,
while Landon would prefer for these efforts to be organized around bsd-
port.

--Chris

[Rob Ross]

I wouldn't say I prefer a single person to work on it. I was trying to get across that this one person is not only qualified to lead the charge on a Mac-native port, but is also available full time, which is what this project is going to need.

I hope Landon and Emmanuel can get in touch with each other and discuss and coordinate.

Also, I'm curious why OpenJDK wouldn't just start an "official" new project, a "MacOS-port" project, instead of relying on the BSD-port? The goal it to recreate (and surpass) what Apple did on its port, right? Not just hack up the BSD code so it can run on Mac OS?

I want a fully native, integrated JDK for the Mac OS platform, and I'm willing to do it myself (metaphorically speaking, I'm not insane) if I have to in order to make this happen.

Rob

[Landon Fuller]

On Oct 28, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Rob Ross wrote:

>
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Chris Adamson wrote:
>
>> Dalibor just tweeted a status update on the bsd-port project from
>> Landon Fuller, in the context of whether JKoala could/should be
>> integrated with it at some point.
>>
>> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/bsd-port-dev/2010-October/001355.html
>>
>> It's in response to Rob, who likes the one-focused-developer model,
>> while Landon would prefer for these efforts to be organized around bsd-
>> port.
>>
>> --Chris

>
> I wouldn't say I prefer a single person to work on it. I was trying to get across that this one person is not only qualified to lead the charge on a Mac-native port, but is also available full time, which is what this project is going to need.

Regardless of who steps up to help (I hope a lot of people!), I think we can (and should) use OpenJDK as a rallying point -- there's a lot of work that needs to be done to produce a functional release-quality JDK for Mac OS X, and we can coordinate closely with Oracle (and rely on their resources) by opening a dialog and working with them via the OpenJDK project. One of the first major issues with embarking on any significant quantity of work is whether it will simply be superseded by internal development at Oracle, which is something we can only avoid by talking with them.

It's my goal to see the Mac OS X port merged into Java 7 mainline in time for a proper Mac OS X release, and we're definitely going to have to work with Oracle to make that happen.

> Also, I'm curious why OpenJDK wouldn't just start an "official" new project, a "MacOS-port" project, instead of relying on the BSD-port? The goal it to recreate (and surpass) what Apple did on its port, right? Not just hack up the BSD code so it can run on Mac OS?

The Mac OS X port stands very heavily on the shoulders of the BSD porting work -- Mac OS X is, at heart, a BSD (mostly), and a great majority of code is very nearly identical. Nearly all of the ongoing work and open-source contributions (even predating OpenJDK) have come from the BSD community, and trying to separate the two would simply place the maintenance burden solely on our own heads, for very little benefit.

Where a Mac port needs to differentiate itself is in native integration, and that's something we can do very effectively while still leveraging the work of the BSD porters.

That said, it would be great to have an official Mac OpenJDK (MacJDK?) home page and bug tracking to coordinate Mac-specific work. This is something I'd like to keep closely tied to OpenJDK, if at all possible. Dalibor Topic has volunteered himself to serve as the 'official channel' to Oracle, so I guess that's a question for him :)

> I want a fully native, integrated JDK for the Mac OS platform, and I'm willing to do it myself (metaphorically speaking, I'm not insane) if I have to in order to make this happen.

Sounds good to me :)

-landonf

[Puybaret]

Hi,

As it seems that people aware of OpenJDK port to Mac OS X, Soylatte
and JKoala seem to discuss in this thread, let me join you, as the
leader of JKoala...
First, sorry if JKoala web server was down yesterday but there was a
massive attack on many servers two days ago at OVH and I had to update
it before restarting it. :-(
For those who worry about, be sure that my intention is in no case to
run JKoala alone, ignoring the projects that already exists and their
contributors. Since the launch of JKoala, I've exchanged emails with
Landon Fuller, Dalibor Topic and also with Werner Randelshofer, the
author of Quaqua an independent Mac OS X Look and feel. I hope they
can help with other contributors to achieve our goal.

I launched JKoala because I want a complete implementation of Java
under Mac OS X, including AWT / Swing. If Oracle or any other company
implement it, it isn't a problem for me, I'll use their
implementation. But many Java users seem to be able to live with
OpenJDK + Quaqua running an X11 window, or simply no GUI at all. I
don't want that to happen and propose my help. I can work full time on
this project if I'm paid. I can't work part time on this project
because this would be much less efficient, I would have to give up
Sweet Home 3D for a very long time, and I feel people implicated in
this problem have to understand that open source software has a price
too. In a way, it will help us to measure people real interest for
Java under Mac OS X.
I just hope you understand my point of view.

Don't hesitate to ask more questions if needed.
--
Emmanuel Puybaret

[fede.silva]

On Oct 26, 8:04 pm, Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com> wrote:
> I am pretty comfortable with the fact that it's not a scam, but come on:
> does he really expect to receive random anonymous donations that will add up
> to $50,000?
>

The Diaspora guys got more, didn't they? It's just a matter of
momentum.
Can he get it? I do not know. But it is possible in my opinion.

I would be happy with a partial implementation of the sdk. I have no
use for audio for example.

> That part seems ridiculous to me, or maybe just extraordinarily naïve.
>
> --
> Cédric
>
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Fabrizio Giudici <
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it> wrote:
> > On 10/26/2010 12:29 PM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
>
> >>  (I've not looked at who he is).
>
> > Ok, precisation needed! With the above sentence, I meant that I didn't know
> > who was the JKoala author - I mean, I didn't know *his name* (I hope now
> > it's clear). He's just written to me, and he's Emmanuel Puybaret, who I do
> > know by fame (he's a frequent poster at the Java-dev mailing list at Apple),
> > and he's got a very reputable CV (e.g., have a look at

> >http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/porters-dev/2007-November/0000...).

> > In particular, Emmanuel is one of the guys who manage in delivering a
> > functional Swing-based application that is also pleasing and user friendly:
>
> >http://www.sweethome3d.com/index.jsp
>
> > He's not subscribing this group and asked me to forward this message:
>
> > As I'm not registered in this group I can't write and wanted to state
> > clearly that JKoala is no scam.
>
> > We must must move forward, and stop waiting for others to get the job done.
> > As said on JKoala web site, I would be glad to help, but I have to eat
> > also. That's as simple as that...
> > And you're right, this might cost much more than $50,000., but don't worry
> > I'm not greedy.;-)
>
> > Please forward this information in the group.
>
> > Have a nice evening
> > --
> > Emmanuel Puybaret

> > Email  :puyba...@eteks.com

> > Web    :http://www.eteks.com
> >        http://www.jkoala.org
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "The Java Posse" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to java...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > javaposse+...@googlegroups.com<javaposse%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups .com>
> > .

[Puybaret]

Hi,

Since Oracle and Apple announced OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X and Java
SE 6 support for Mac OS X Lion on November 12, 2010, JKoala isn't
required anymore and won't go further. Therefore I refunded the 7
contributors.
Thank you for your support. :-)

For more information read:
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/11/12openjdk.html
http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-dev/2010/Nov/msg00104.html

[Reinier Zwitserloot]

Well, cheers to you for taking an active stance, at any rate.

[Fabrizio Giudici]

On 11/13/2010 08:58 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:
> Well, cheers to you for taking an active stance, at any rate.

+1. This is what can make a difference.

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
Fabrizio...@tidalwave.it

[Puybaret]

Thank you all for your feedback. :-)
I'm happy it ended the way Oracle and Apple announced it, and reading
your kind messages helps me think JKoala was worth it.
My reward will be that we're sure to get Java a few more years under
Mac OS X.
--
Emmanuel Puybaret

[Fabrizio Giudici]

In any case, for all you guys who have skills to work on OpenJDK and Mac
OS X, recall that OpenJDK... is open! You can still be a part of it.

[Puybaret]

> In any case, for all you guys who have skills to work on OpenJDK and Mac
> OS X, recall that OpenJDK... is open! You can still be a part of it.

I'm going to let Open JDK for Mac OS X exist first.
Then, if l can help to fix these bugs and requests that I filled in
Apple private radar system years ago, it will be a pleasure to
contribute, since it will be possible.
I really believe we can get a much better integration to Mac OS X.
Who didn't dream of a better implementation for JFileChooser and
JColorChooser? ;-)
We could even start a list of feature requests right now.
--
Emmanuel Puybaret

[Rob Ross]

Well I already started working on the Aqua LaF for this so I'll continue. I've already implemented a few things that have always bugged me about Apple's implementation, such as:

1. Tool Tips now dissolve like they do on normal Mac apps, they don't just cut away. Also, they stay up for 10 seconds, not 4.
2. Full Keyboard access is honored (so far my implementation has JButtons only), but when Off, no JButtons are focusable.
3. All drawing code will be done purely in Java2D, no native callbacks to paint native widgets.

I also have plans to implement a full screen menu bar that fully implements the JMenuItem/JMenuBar APIs, ie., honors custom drawing. It should be possible in native code, as NSMenuItems support custom NSViews.

etc.

:)

Rob

[Miroslav Pokorny]

Is there a public repo we can browse and watch ?