Kalatope id al030511

[Alok Mahendroo]

Dear friends,
Another flower, I suppose... I should have measured the leaves and fruit
for...
the lower leaves are different.. loved their shape..
Anyway, it is for the sheer pleasure of sharing a beautiful flower like
this...

Location Kalatope, Chamba
Altitude 2100 mts
Habit herb
Habitat wild/ periphery of fields
Height 10-12 inches

regards
Alok
--
Himalayan Village Education Trust
Village Khudgot,
P.O. Dalhousie
District Chamba
H.P. 176304, India
www.hive.interconnection.org
www.hivetrust.wordpress.com
www.forwildlife.wordpress.com

[Gurcharan Singh]

Could be Lactuca dissecta, but as written earlier height of plant, diam. of head, its length are important for identification. For compositae the fruit size, its crown (pappus) where made of hairs (simple or branched) or scales, and body of fruit whether with narrowed neck or not, its length, and relative length of body and neck are very helpful. I am not asking non-botanists (and don't expect) to record these but if there is a good close up one fruit (achene) and naked head after the achenes have fallen off, it can always help.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Alok Mahendroo]

Thank you sir for excusing us non-botanists of gross ignorance... but
we'll still try and follow your good advice... I hope I got the right
data this time...

Height of the plant 16 inches (largest I found)
Fruiting body (Is that achene.. the one with the hairy seed pods) 1.5 cm
ball diameter.. the magnifying glass I am using has a scale measuring in
millimeters...
the diameter of the flower was 8-9 mm

regards
Alok

[Gurcharan Singh]

That is simply great Alok ji. If all students are like you, every teacher would be happy. First just for your information, each structure in the globose head is achene. Each achene has broader lower portion called its body and narrowed upper portion the neck or beak. The hairs at top form pappus. Your plant clearly has neck much longer than body, characteristic of L. dissecta, plants are up to 18 inches tall and flower heads (capitulum) 8-12 mm across. The flower like structure in this family is collection of flowers (inflorescence) called head or capitulum. The achenes usually form a globose head, and the structure which is left after achenes fall off is receptacle. It may be naked or covered with hairs.

The plant is surely Lactuca dissecta.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Ushadi micromini]

Dear Alok: nice pic...what is this black frame with markings around
the flower...
is it some kind of measuring marking device?

did you make it?
buy it?
where?
how can I get one or two?
do they come in different sizes?
does fit around the sunshades of the lens front?

lots of questions....
awaiting answers eagerly...because...wonderful if its a measuring
device for macro...
being black matt does not shine, and throw off the meter...
small enough to carry around...

Ushadi
PS by the way this flower reminds me of chicory, .. a roadside weed
in much of northeast wastelands and highway shoulders in NY CT< PA
Etc , and in europe...
But as GuUrucharanji so patiently explained... its a big genus, and a
detailed key to id is so very important...
THANK YOU GURUCHARNJI for the lesson.

>  DSCN7861.jpg
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[Gurcharan Singh]

Yes Ushadi ji

Flower colour is same, but not leaves which are much more rigid in that, heads generally sessile, singly or two or three together, and more importantly achene does not have a beak and pappus of small palea and not long hairs as in this case. That is why I had asked alok ji to send me photographs of fruit.

   By the way we had published in  1972 a paper how we can identify composits from achene structure. I will upload it soon.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Gurcharan Singh]

Here is our paper on use of achene morphology in identification in  Compositae

The fruit is strictly a cypsela, but term achene is more commonly used especially in older Floras.

This thread helped me to learn how to create multi-page pdf document using a flat-bed scanner. Perhaps now I can create pdf documents of my other papers also.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Alok Mahendroo]

Thank you Usha di for the interest in my photographic innovation, but
alas I am not an true innovator... just a borrower of ideas...
You can definitely get the device and even order it online from
Jodogyan, and on this page ( http://www.jodogyan.org/tlmscience ) you'll
see the photo of a linen tester which has 10x magnification and it is
just the right size to hold in front of an average point and shoot
camera and click some wonderful macros without paying the nikon chaps an
arm and a leg (which is what I do since I can't afford a fancy dslr)
Hope this answers some of your intrigue..
Regards
Alok

On Thu, 2011-05-05 at 18:22 -0700, Ushadi micromini wrote:
> Dear Alok: nice pic...what is this black frame with markings around
> the flower...
> is it some kind of measuring marking device?
>
> did you make it?
> buy it?
> where?
> how can I get one or two?
> do they come in different sizes?
> does fit around the sunshades of the lens front?
>
> lots of questions....
> awaiting answers eagerly...because...wonderful if its a measuring
> device for macro...
> being black matt does not shine, and throw off the meter...
> small enough to carry around...
>
> Ushadi
> PS by the way this flower reminds me of chicory, .. a roadside weed
> in much of northeast wastelands and highway shoulders in NY CT< PA
> Etc , and in europe...
> But as GuUrucharanji so patiently explained... its a big genus, and a
> detailed key to id is so very important...
> THANK YOU GURUCHARNJI for the lesson.
>

--

[Ushadi micromini]

Dear Alok ji:
Thank you, I definitely will try and get the linen tester, I just like
the idea of a built in marker for size....
its wonderful... I do use the nikon macro and the built in macro
capbility in my prosumer (lighter in weight) sony ....
so may not need the 10x, but I surely like the measuring devise...
Thanks.
Usha di

===

On May 6, 9:27 pm, Alok Mahendroo <alokisabe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you Usha di for the interest in my photographic innovation, but
> alas I am not an true innovator... just a borrower of ideas...
> You can definitely get the device and even order it online from

> Jodogyan, and on this page (http://www.jodogyan.org/tlmscience) you'll

[Alok Mahendroo]

Ha... ha... you jest at a poor commoner Usha di,
'nikon macro and the built in macro capbility in my prosumer (lighter in
weight) sony ....'
where I am talking about a makeshift 'linen tester....'
regards
Alok

On Sat, 2011-05-07 at 09:13 -0700, Ushadi micromini wrote:
> Dear Alok ji:
> Thank you, I definitely will try and get the linen tester, I just like
> the idea of a built in marker for size....

--

[ushadi Micromini]

Dear Alok: sorry... jesting at anybody is not my intention.... I was just pointing it out that measuring device you used was very appropriate and handy... with or without its magnifying capability....

so whether one has a macro of nikon's making or not.... one still needs to provide the taxonomists with proper id related data, and in photography that includes size....


please do not take it as a jest at anybody's expense...
if anything I tend to be self-deprecating....

most humbly yours, Usha di

PS MAKESHIFT DEVICES :   often are used by people who are more than most innovative....  and in Medicine..its called off-list-use...often awarding the innovator a second patent or an award... so please donot ever think you are deprived...
you have an innovative brain, if you came up with this "second" use of the linen testor.... or if you adopted it for taxonomic photography....accept my good wishes....usha di....


===========

[Ushadi micromini]

Dear Dr. Singh:
your 1972 paper will be most welcome.... and will come in handy next
time I see and can stop to photograph the blue roadside flowers...
thanks
Usha di
========

On May 6, 6:52 am, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes Ushadi ji
> Flower colour is same, but not leaves which are much more rigid in that,
> heads generally sessile, singly or two or three together, and more
> importantly achene does not have a beak and pappus of small palea and not
> long hairs as in this case. That is why I had asked alok ji to send me
> photographs of fruit.
>    By the way we had published in  1972 a paper how we can identify
> composits from achene structure. I will upload it soon.
>
> --
> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> Retired  Associate Professor
> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.

> Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

>
> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 6:52 AM, Ushadi micromini

> <microminipho...@gmail.com>wrote:

> > Indiawww.hive.interconnection.orgwww.hivetrust.wordpress.comwww.forwildlif...

[Gurcharan Singh]

Not only the measurement capability, Usha di, I was greatly impressed with the depth of focus: every part of achene-its body, ribs on the body, neck, pappus were so clear in the photograph. If all of us have such photographs, identification would be so easy. Great job Alok ji. 

    Let us keep the humorous atmosphere enjoy the lighter touches to the conversation.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[ushadi Micromini]

yes , me to...and
smile, smile.... usha di

by the way I just got the 1972 paper, wonderful  how you made the pdf....  how did you do it?
Usha di

=====

[Alok Mahendroo]

No offense taken at all.. Usha di, please...!!
Such comments (as Gurcharan ji said) keep the atmosphere lighter.. and I have no grudges
in that respect... One jests with the people who would understand the
humour and I too am writing in the lighter vein....

Thank you all...
regards
Alok

On Sat, 2011-05-07 at 22:32 +0530, ushadi Micromini wrote:
> Dear Alok: sorry... jesting at anybody is not my intention.... I was
> just pointing it out that measuring device you used was very
> appropriate and handy... with or without its magnifying capability....
>
> so whether one has a macro of nikon's making or not.... one still
> needs to provide the taxonomists with proper id related data, and in
> photography that includes size....
>
>
> please do not take it as a jest at anybody's expense...
> if anything I tend to be self-deprecating....
>
> most humbly yours, Usha di
>
> PS MAKESHIFT DEVICES : often are used by people who are more than
> most innovative.... and in Medicine..its called off-list-use...often
> awarding the innovator a second patent or an award... so please donot
> ever think you are deprived...
> you have an innovative brain, if you came up with this "second" use of
> the linen testor.... or if you adopted it for taxonomic
> photography....accept my good wishes....usha di....
>
>

--

[ushadi Micromini]

Dear Alok: good ...good...
we are then back to being comfortable and easy...
we will / do have fun .... here... don't we?
love it...
Usha di.

---------

[Gurcharan Singh]

Usha di

It was simple. I have a flat bed scanner, simple cano-scan lite which I bought for just Rs. 2500/-, which I use frequently for scanning documents. I knew it can save as pdf document, but did not know how I would send so many single pages. I thought of giving a try, and when I clicked option of pdf document, the default choice was multiple-page document. I scanned a page, pressed next, till I had scanned all the pages. Pressing finish created a mult-ipage document which I uploaded. I have similarly made pdf of all my papers.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Dr Pankaj Kumar]

Nice discussion going on here.
Thanks a lot for sharing this beautiful pic and innovative effort for
taking the measurements.
Gurcharan sir, Just incase you wish to try, there is a shop on chandni
chowk before the gurudrawa on the road that goes inside opposite to
red fort. They keep varieties of scientific pocket lenses which can
come handy for taking such pictures.
But what I am seeing here is something for the first time. Dear Mr.
Alok thanks a lot for sharing the link.
By the way, any idea, how they test linen with it?
Pankaj

On May 8, 6:17 am, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Usha di
> It was simple. I have a flat bed scanner, simple cano-scan lite which I
> bought for just Rs. 2500/-, which I use frequently for scanning documents. I
> knew it can save as pdf document, but did not know how I would send so many
> single pages. I thought of giving a try, and when I clicked option of pdf
> document, the default choice was multiple-page document. I scanned a page,
> pressed next, till I had scanned all the pages. Pressing finish created a
> mult-ipage document which I uploaded. I have similarly made pdf of all my
> papers.
>
> --
> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> Retired  Associate Professor
> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.

> Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

>
> On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 3:58 AM, ushadi Micromini

> <microminipho...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear Alok: good ...good...
> > we are then back to being comfortable and easy...
> > we will / do have fun .... here... don't we?
> > love it...
> > Usha di.
>
> > ---------
>

[Dr Pankaj Kumar]

Respected Gurcharan sir,
If you wish you can send me your address, I will post you the Adobe
Professional 8. It can create pdf from any image and is also helpful
in editing pdfs.

Pankaj


On May 8, 6:17 am, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Usha di
> It was simple. I have a flat bed scanner, simple cano-scan lite which I
> bought for just Rs. 2500/-, which I use frequently for scanning documents. I
> knew it can save as pdf document, but did not know how I would send so many
> single pages. I thought of giving a try, and when I clicked option of pdf
> document, the default choice was multiple-page document. I scanned a page,
> pressed next, till I had scanned all the pages. Pressing finish created a
> mult-ipage document which I uploaded. I have similarly made pdf of all my
> papers.
>
> --
> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> Retired  Associate Professor
> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.

> Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

>
> On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 3:58 AM, ushadi Micromini

> <microminipho...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear Alok: good ...good...
> > we are then back to being comfortable and easy...
> > we will / do have fun .... here... don't we?
> > love it...
> > Usha di.
>
> > ---------
>

[Gurcharan Singh]

Thanks Pankaj ji. My home address is there in my signature below (932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018).

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Pankaj Kumar]

Thats interesting and informative.
So you mean more the number of threads in 1cm better is the quality!!
Pankaj

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 12:18 AM, Ushadi micromini
<micromi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Dr. Kumar:
> I can tell you how: one puts the magnifier on the fabric to be tested
> and counts warps and wefts criss- crossing each other within a given
> length/sides of a square, say one centimeter or an inch whatever is
> the standard for the country or century or industry.... as in linen:
> it is centimeter, cotton fabrics, again centimeters, jute fabrics it
> used to be inches.... and I think still is....
>
> and such magnifying lenses come quite handy for quick inspection of
> fabrics, and be non -destructive... one could count threads even in a
> shop on the entire roll ....
>
> how do I know this? i had taken some economic botany classes and some
> esoteric knowledge lodged in my memory....ha ha...
> usha di
>
> =======

--
***********************************************
"TAXONOMISTS GETTING EXTINCT AND SPECIES DATA DEFICIENT !!"

Pankaj Kumar Ph.D. (Orchidaceae)
Research Associate
Greater Kailash Sacred Landscape Project
Department of Habitat Ecology
Wildlife Institute of India
Post Box # 18
Dehradun - 248001, India

[Ushadi micromini]

Dear Dr. Kumar:
I can tell you how: one puts the magnifier on the fabric to be tested
and counts warps and wefts criss- crossing each other within a given
length/sides of a square, say one centimeter or an inch whatever is
the standard for the country or century or industry.... as in linen:
it is centimeter, cotton fabrics, again centimeters, jute fabrics it
used to be inches.... and I think still is....

and such magnifying lenses come quite handy for quick inspection of
fabrics, and be non -destructive... one could count threads even in a
shop on the entire roll ....

how do I know this? i had taken some economic botany classes and some
esoteric knowledge lodged in my memory....ha ha...
usha di

=======

On May 9, 7:12 pm, Dr Pankaj Kumar <sahanipan...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ushadi Micromini]

Dear Pankaj: no.... just denser... there are 240 count bed sheets and then  upto 600 count... quite dense... only practical if you do machine wash otherwise too heavy for the maid to lift and wring out the water....ha ha..
Kota sari would be much less number of threads,
wollen suiting would be much higher numbers...
 so it  varies based on purpose...
Usha di..

========

[Pankaj Kumar]

Thats interesting!!
Thanks for sharing.
Pankaj

[Ushadi]

latest working link to the Linen tester

https://jodogyan.org/product/linen-tester/

in november 2019

older link is caput

usha di

[Ushadi]