what is the significance of the difference in the names of this fern:????

[ushadi Micromini]

Dear Gurchranji and ALL that would know about my question....

I received this picture and accompanying write up today from UBC....   the URL is    http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/potd/2011/10/osmunda-claytoniana.php

MY question is about the names:    Osmunda claytoniana  the current name and Osmunda claytoniites for the fossil... they claim is almost identical...

My question is  clayton- iana   versus   clayton- iites

what does -iana    depict that is different from  -iites ????/


these spellings appear in one of the paragraphs in the above URL... I  am copy pasting ithe paragraph below within quotation marks....
"Osmunda claytoniana has the "oldest known fossil record of any living fern", and can be traced back to the Triassic period. This species can also be considered a living fossil, because it appears almost identical to a fossil fern species from 200 million years ago, Osmunda claytoniites. It has gained the common name interrupted fern because of the appearance of its fronds, on which the brown fertile pinnae "interrupt" the green sterile pinnae."  end quote


Thank you...

In the mean time the rest may also enjoy the picture... fantastik, ain'nt it?


Usha di
==============

 

[Neha Singh]

Yess Brilliant photograpny Usha di !

Regards
Neha Singh

[Dinesh Valke]

This may help you Usha di.

claytoniana	[ klay-ton-ee-AH-na ]	named for John Clayton, 18th century Virginia plant specimen collector; described as the greatest American botanist of his day
claytonii	[ klay-TOH-nee-eye ]	named for John Clayton, 18th century Virginia plant specimen collector; described as the greatest American botanist of his day
claytoniites	[ klay-toh-nee-EYE-tees ]	my guess: refers to being like claytonii, in this context perhaps, being like claytoniana ... wait for comments.

Above pronunciation and meanings sought from Dave's Botanary.
Know nothing beyond this.

Regards.
Dinesh

[ushadi Micromini]

yes and, this much I knew...

i want to know the nitty gritty details of a name...
lets see what Gurcharanji or Neil et al come up with...
thank you for the prompt reply...
u di
====

[Ushadi micromini]

Neha ji...
yes UBC folks have good pictures...
by the way... its not my doing...
I only asked a question about THEIR photograph
I thought i was clear ...
I sent in a url only....


I am just a messenger who is asking a question..
not the maker of the photo...I wish I was...
Usha di
===

[Dr Pankaj Kumar]

Oh I replied this but my reply didnt appear here!!
Pankaj


On Oct 11, 2:15 pm, Ushadi micromini <microminipho...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Pankaj Kumar]

Respected Usha Mam and Dinesh sir
claytoniana means "like Clayton". Its an adjective of "Clayton".
claytonii means "of Clayton". Clayton is used as a Noun, saying the
specimen that belonged to Clayton or collected by Clayton.
claytoniites means "looking like claytoniana" or if we take the whole
plant name then it means looking specifically like Osmunda
claytoniana.

Please attached my pic of Osmunda claytoniana from Himachal Pradesh,
just before Rohtang Pass.
Pankaj

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Dr Pankaj Kumar
<sahani...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
**********************************************************************
"Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!"

Pankaj Kumar Ph.D. (Orchidaceae)
Conservation Officer

Office:
Flora Conservation Department
Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.

Residence:
36B, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun
Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.

email: pku...@kbfg.org
       sahani...@gmail.com
       pankaj...@rediffmail.com
Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:30pm)
       +852 9436 6251; +852 5431 6094 (mobile)

[Dr Pankaj Kumar]

Respected Usha Mam and Dinesh sir

claytoniana means "like Clayton". Its an adjective of "Clayton".
claytonii means "of Clayton". Clayton is used as a Noun, saying the
specimen that belonged to Clayton or collected by Clayton.
claytoniites means "looking like claytoniana" or if we take the whole
plant name then it means looking specifically like Osmunda
claytoniana.

Pankaj

[Gurcharan Singh]

To add to what Pankaj ji has written

claytoniana, a specific epithet in adjective form (since Osmunda generic name is in feminine form), may take form of claytonianum (if attached to a neuter genus) and claytonianus (if attached to masculine genus)

claytonii, a noun in possessive form, will remain unchanged from genus to genus; -ii   for all names ending in consonant, -i for names ending in vowel (roylei for Royle), -e for those ending in a- (senguptae for Sengupta), etc

cyatoniites here signifies two things, one it is like O. claytoniana, and second more important it is a name for a fossil. ending -ites is commonly used for fossil taxa.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Pankaj Kumar]

Guru is always a guru :)...
Thanks for adding more info....
I was not sure about this "ites" thing.
Pankaj

[Dinesh Valke]

Many many many thanks Pankaj and Gurcharan ji.
Regards.
Dinesh

[Bhatt Sweta]

very informative thread indeed...

Thanks Gurucharan Sir and Pankajji

--

Bhatt Shweta

Doctoral Research Student,

M.S.U.

[ushadi Micromini]

Dear Pankaj ji , Dineshji and Gurcharanji; I must say ..Respected Gurcharanji:

Thank you individually and collectively for answering my question...

As i wrote the questions, I knew it.. I would get my complete answer here at this forum... and no where else...

I am copy pasting these answers in a word file to keep it handy...

Usha di
=========

[ushadi Micromini]

Dear Sweta: Yes it has been a satisfying thread ...
Usha di
==

[Bhatt Sweta]

Ya and Ushadi, just like you i have copied in word document...

[Pankaj Kumar]

what was that :), abusing some one with a secret code !!! just kidding....
Its like here HK, I never know if others are abusing or praising...
Pankaj

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 8:26 PM, ushadi Micromini
<micromi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> xbvcb

[ushadi Micromini]

Pankaj ji:
Secret code?  ha ha,
yes!!!       haven't done a secret code since we were kids and had balcony or rooftop "caves" under old desks... in USA kids or their fathers build tree houses...  In   Calcutta, my dad built us a rooftop desk cave...

No, Pankaj,  I was falling asleep I think... my fingers  were on the last row..looks like..
just slip of fingers...and not realising what it was I sent it...  by the time I saw it was gibberish  and removed it..it was too late... some of you must already have received it in email...
but its been removed from eflora thread I think...
I hope...

the red fruit comments must have reached you by now!!!!

Usha di
======

[Sid]

Very informative thread and Gurcharan sir nailed the answer.

Haha... Pankaj, I think you are in a very confused state. It would take 7+ years to figure out their secret code. and still more time to perfect it. 

[Pankaj Kumar]

I was going through Gurcharan sir's remark and I just wanted to add
some thing more.
Gender is a big issue in ICBN.

According to ICBN, II:VII:2, Article 62.1. A generic name retains the
gender assigned by botanical tradition, irrespective of classical
usage or the author's original usage. A generic name without a
botanical tradition retains the gender assigned by its author (but see
Art. 62.4).

For example, Punica granatum. Ideally Punica is of feminine gender,
"ending with 'a', hence the species name should have been 'granata',
but this name has been conserved because of its long usage. But the
question is, according to article 62.1 name should have retained the
gender assigned by botanical tradition irrespective of the usage by
author. Hence this goes against ICBN.

Second example could be Quercus oblongata. Though the gender of genus
according to name is masculine, but classically they were treated as
feminine hence, the species name is feminine.

For the understanding of a common person, if you go through ICBN ARTICLE 62.1:
IF YOU NAME YOUR SON "RAMA" AND YOU DONT SAY IF IT WAS MALE OR FEMALE
THEN ACCORDING TO THE ARTICLE IT WILL BE CONSIDERED FEMALE FOLLOWING
BOTANICAL TRADITION. VERY INTERESTINGLY LORD RAM FROM RAMAYAN IS OFTEN
REFEREED AS RAMA AND RAVAN AS RAVANA IN ENGLISH!!

IN HINDI TRAIN AS RAILGADI IS FEMALE, ENGINE IS FEMALE, BUT THE
BOGGIES ARE MALE !!

[Gurcharan Singh]

yes

Quercus (Q. dilatata, Q. acuminata), Prunus (P. persica, P. armeniaca), Pinus (Pinus alba, P. africana) are all feminine because they are trees, and in classical Latin, tree is treated as feminine. Perhaps all trees are feminine, irrespective of the ending of the generic name.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Dr Pankaj Kumar]

What about Oroxylum indicum, Phoenix sylvestris, Pterospermum
acerifolium, Dimocarpus longan!! :)

Its very tricky as both options are there. A tree should be female
according to botanical latin, but at the same time it can be male if
the name doesnt follow the botanical tradition and author calls it
male!!

Pankaj

On Oct 12, 9:52 am, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> yes
> Quercus (Q. dilatata, Q. acuminata), Prunus (P. persica, P. armeniaca),
> Pinus (Pinus alba, P. africana) are all feminine because they are trees, and
> in classical Latin, tree is treated as feminine. Perhaps all trees are
> feminine, irrespective of the ending of the generic name.
>
> --
> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
> Retired  Associate Professor
> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.

> Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

> > >> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Pankaj Kumar <sahanipan...@gmail.com>

> > >> wrote:
>
> > >>> what was that :), abusing some one with a secret code !!! just
> > >>> kidding....
> > >>> Its like here HK, I never know if others are abusing or praising...
> > >>> Pankaj
>
> > >>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 8:26 PM, ushadi Micromini
> > >>> <microminipho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> > xbvcb
>

> > >>> > On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Bhatt Sweta <bhattsw...@gmail.com>

> > >>> > wrote:
>
> > >>> >> Ya and Ushadi, just like you i have copied in word document...
>
> > >>> >> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 4:32 PM, ushadi Micromini
> > >>> >> <microminipho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> >>> Dear Sweta: Yes it has been a satisfying thread ...
> > >>> >>> Usha di
> > >>> >>> ==
>
> > >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 4:24 PM, ushadi Micromini
> > >>> >>> <microminipho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> >>>> Dear Pankaj ji , Dineshji and Gurcharanji; I must say ..Respected
> > >>> >>>> Gurcharanji:
>
> > >>> >>>> Thank you individually and collectively for answering my
> > question...
>
> > >>> >>>> As i wrote the questions, I knew it.. I would get my complete
> > answer
> > >>> >>>> here at this forum... and no where else...
>
> > >>> >>>> I am copy pasting these answers in a word file to keep it handy...
>
> > >>> >>>> Usha di
> > >>> >>>> =========
>
> > >>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Bhatt Sweta <

> > bhattsw...@gmail.com>

> > >>> >>>> wrote:
>
> > >>> >>>>> very informative thread indeed...
> > >>> >>>>> Thanks Gurucharan Sir and Pankajji
>
> > >>> >>>>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Dinesh Valke

> > >>> >>>>> <dinesh.va...@gmail.com>

> > >>> >>>>> wrote:
>
> > >>> >>>>>> Many many many thanks Pankaj and Gurcharan ji.
> > >>> >>>>>> Regards.
> > >>> >>>>>> Dinesh
>
> > >>> >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Pankaj Kumar

> > >>> >>>>>> <sahanipan...@gmail.com>

> > >>> >>>>>> wrote:
>
> > >>> >>>>>>> Guru is always a guru :)...
> > >>> >>>>>>> Thanks for adding more info....
> > >>> >>>>>>> I was not sure about this "ites" thing.
> > >>> >>>>>>> Pankaj
>
> > >>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Gurcharan Singh

> > >>> >>>>>>> <singh...@gmail.com>

> > >>> >>>>>>> > <sahanipan...@gmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Gurcharan Singh]

Yes there are some exception, but majority (say in Manual of Trees by  A Rehder) follow the feminity rule.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Pankaj Kumar]

Differently, in Hindi, trees are male!!
:)
Pankaj

Residence:

36B, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun

Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.

email: pku...@kbfg.org

[Gurcharan Singh]

Most Indian Words (in different languages) the ending of the word (except for a few like kursi, chapati, khirki) don't give indication of its gender, and that is why in most cases what we call as 'mera' in Hindi (or say North) would be called as 'meri' by a friend from South or East. This is what I had been often telling my students. In Latin (and for that matter even Russian) ending of the word generally tells us its gender, not in most Indian languages.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Pankaj Kumar]

I think this also depends on the word that comes after.
Meri file
Mera kutta
Mera dog
Meri doggie
Mera to sir ghoom gaya !!!
Just kidding.....
Pankaj

[ushadi Micromini]

aha.... Gurchranji and Pankaj ji: 

so my motto  that I dreamt one nite a few years ago, ((when deep in serious 18 hours a day study of Herbal and Ayurvedic plants...)):  is apt and "correct" by this tradition:

(c) "Trees are our Mashima"  ....

trees are feminine, life supporting, caring, giving of oxygen, good aura... and often nitrogen fixing, chlorophyll giving,  and give us medicine, wood to sit on and shelter us, leaf mulch to grow things again in, flowers to marvel at etc etc... just like a MA or her substitute  ,... a MASHi... you can hug a tree get life sustaining good electromagnetic vibes... not  a myth... do it....try it.. I do ... makes a difference in the day...


I guess my brain just made it up in one drowsy (alpha brain wave predominant ) moment...
but not totally my own either...  since it may have come from some obscure neuronal networks in my brain that connected some dots of known and fantasized ideas...

in gujarati there is a proverb that Harade (haritaki) is " na-ma ni ma" ... na-ma = is a baby who has lost her/his mother, harade is her/his mother... its so "gunakari" ...

fun...
Usha di
=======

[ushadi Micromini]

yes, Pankaj ji... take a hint you males of the species   :) ...:)...


ha ha ha ha...
usha di
=====
(ps joke is on the bogey and engine... not on any of you, please do not be irate)
=============

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:37 AM, Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Pankaj Kumar]

Mam, a simple example would be, you say king of fruits to Mango and not queen!!
Pankaj

[ushadi Micromini]

Pankaj ji and Gurcharan ji:
on a serious note though...
I found this URL...http://ibot.sav.sk/icbn/no%20frames/0067Ch7OaGoNSec2a62.htm
for ICBN codes etc...
is it the one that you both are referring to?
or is there a better site some where?

thanks...

Usha di
========

[Pankaj Kumar]

Yes mam, this is the one. The better one or better say latest one is
still under construction. This is Vienna Code and the new one will be
Sydney Code.
Pankaj

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:26 AM, ushadi Micromini

[ushadi Micromini]

:) ... touche   !!!!
u
=====