Tree ID for SeasonWatch needed..One of two species sending..

[maya ramaswamy]

Hi could you please help me to identify this tree for seasonwatch?
Its very twiggy at base and leaves cover only the top. But it seems to be a native variety, and birds love it in fruiting season..
Thanks,
Maya Ramaswamy,
Bangalore

[Smilax004]

Zizyphus sp of Rhamnaceae family.

Please provide necessary information while posting pictures for
identification.
Please go through the link given below and please try post by
providing information in the given format @

https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/posting-guidelines

Regards,
Giby

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[Smilax004]

May be Z. glabrata?

Regards,
Giby

[H S]

to me it look like Z. mauritiana

regards,

--

 - H.S.

A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart of stone

[Dinesh Valke]

... could be Ziziphus nummularia.
Regards.
Dinesh

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Smilax004 <giby.ku...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Dinesh Valke]

... please ignore my thought ... oversaw the first photo showing handsome shrub.
Regards.
Dinesh

[Vijayasankar]

It is Ziziphus mauritiana (= Z. jujuba) of Rhamnaceae family. Called as 'ilandhai' இலந்தை in Tamil.
The fruits are edible (but beware of large, stone-like seed :).

 

Regards 

 

Vijayasankar Raman
National Center for Natural Products Research
University of Mississippi

[Balkar Arya]

Ziziphus jujuba Mill is not synonym of  Ziziphus mauritiana as per theplantlist.org

pls see http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-2470699

To me this tree is BER

Ziziphus jujuba

During our Pre Commissioned Training in OTA Kamptee (Nagpur) its fruits were the only thing available to us to eat during short breaks. More than 10 varities of BER were there. These were the main food of Monkeys and Langoors residing there.

Perheps attached key from eflora.org may help

--
Regards

Dr Balkar Singh
Head, Deptt. of Botany and Biotechnology
Arya P G College, Panipat
Haryana-132103
09416262964

[Vijayasankar]

Thanks Balkar ji,
But I meant Ziziphus mauritiana Lam. for which Z. jujuba (L.) Gaertn. is a synonym, as per GRIN.
Please check http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?42285

 

Regards 

 

Vijayasankar Raman
National Center for Natural Products Research
University of Mississippi

[Balkar Arya]

Here are some contrdictions in theplantlist and GRIN

[Giby Kuriakose]

Dear Maya,

Does the plant has thorns? If the tree is unarmed (no thorns) then it is Z. glabrata and if the tree is armed then it is Z. mauritiana (Syn. jujuba). ( We have to clarify the contradiction on the synonym).  I couldnt see  thorns in the branch close up picture hence I reached a conclusion that it could be Z. glabrata (Z. trinervia). Please see the attachment.

Dear all, 

According to the plant list there are 2 genus; Zyzyphus and Ziziphus (http://www.theplantlist.org/browse/A/Rhamnaceae/) in Rhamnacae family jujuba kept under Ziziphus whereas, mauritiana kept under Zizyphus.  Both are accepted as well. Any one has any clarification on this?  

  

Regards,

Giby

On 20 July 2011 13:55, maya ramaswamy <ramaswa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi could you please help me to identify this tree for seasonwatch?
Its very twiggy at base and leaves cover only the top. But it seems to be a native variety, and birds love it in fruiting season..
Thanks,
Maya Ramaswamy,
Bangalore

--
GIBY KURIAKOSE PhD
Ashoka Trust for Research in Ecology and the Environment (ATREE),
Royal Enclave,
Jakkur Post, Srirampura
Bangalore- 560064
India
Phone - +91 9448714856 (Mobile)
visit my pictures @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/giby

[H S]

Has i have told earlier, please don't depend on The palnt list... 

there several mistakes encountered, 

search in literature and look often to the herbarium,,, will help in correct identication..

regards,

[Gurcharan Singh]

Let us not banish 'The Plant List' like that. It is for the first time we have complete list of all plant species with accepted names and synonyms. Agreed, there are still a large list of unresolved names and few controversial conclusions, but I think trained taxonomists can sort these out, and moreover, the list is being continuous improved and we may have improved version soon.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

x

[Giby Kuriakose]

I agree H Sji that we shouldn't completely depend on the plant list. But, as Singji pointed out that is a great effort and we cannot totally ignore the same. I had gone through what ever literature available in our library and got to know that  Z. mauritiana has stipular thorns whereas, Z. glabrata doesn't have hence I reached my conclusion. 

To clarify, the contradiction on synonym I referred the same flora books from our library and most of the flora says Z. jujuba is a synonym of Z.mauritiana (Flowering Plants; Biodiversity Documentation for Kerala, Sasidharan KFRI, 2004 &  Flowering Plants of Kerala, India, Nayar, T S et al (TBGRI), 2006 ). 

I had mentioned the link for The plant list  because that is the best source available online now ( I proudly make a statement that when we compile our data ours would be certainly become the best source of flora reference online). The plant list is compiling by a group of taxonomists who are working from leading botanical gardens in different parts of the world, including Kew Botanical Garden where herbaria from world around is kept and well  maintained for a long time, I believe. Further, I beleive that they are updating the database with several new publications. 

If we feel that there are contradictions or corrections let us write them. 

Thanks and Regards,

Giby

[Gurcharan Singh]

Ziziphus jujuba is a classical example of later homonymy often cited in the text books.

The common Indian Ber plant, Chinese-date or Indian jujube was first described by Linnaeus under the name Rhamnus jujuba a species with leaves glabrous above and velvety beneath. Linnaeus also described Rhamnus ziziphus a species with leaves having glabrous under surface,  As it turned out to be Millers (1768) gave the name Ziziphus jujuba for this species, so that when Gaertn. (1788) or Lamarck (1789) made the combination Ziziphus jujuba based on Rhamnus jujuba of Linnaeus, it turned out to be a later homonym of a different species Z. jujuba Mill. The name Z. jujuba (L.) Gaertn. or (L.) Lam. for Indian Jujube had to be rejected and next available name Z. mauritiana Lam., continued to be used for this species.

Agreed The Plant List does not list Z. mauritiana but lists both Rhamnus ziziphus L. as well as Rhamnus jujuba L. as synonyms of Ziziphus jujuba Mill., implying that latest (2010) taxonomic judgement treats the two species as synonyms. We may like it or not the whole World is going to follow this List, and I think we have no choice. 

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[Giby Kuriakose]

Thank you sir for the detailed clarification. 

But the plant list have listed Z. mauritiana in the list, but as I have mentioned earlier the spelling is different for the genus (http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/tro-50137113) here it is Zizyphus and then they mention that Zizyphus mauritiana doesn't have any synonym. Further, there is yet another genus with a spelling Ziziphus in which they have included jujuba as Ziziphus jujuba with R. jujuba and R. zizyphus as synonym (http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-2470699).

Regards,

Giby

[Gurcharan Singh]

Yes Giby ji

Zizyphus is perhaps biggest goof up by The Plant List. Ziziphus and Zizyphus are same genus with correct spellings as Ziziphus now. Perhaps we will have to write to them about these mistakes.

-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[promila chaturvedi]

The bark of this tree has irregular cracks on almost black trunk. After seeing this mail I read the account of Zizyphus/Ziziphus jujuba. it says jujuba has irregular cracks on almos black trunk.

Promila

[Balkar Arya]

Thanks Gurcharan Ji for detailed clarification

[H S]

Dear All Members,

I never said that ignore The Plant List, no doubt they are doing the best they can do for the biodiversity of the plants of the world. I like the statement by Singh sir written few days back that get the correct knowledge from wherever you get.

I just wanted all of us to refer the literature and herbariums too, instead just depending on The Plant List.

I also feel that there should be some Indian Taxonomists Group on The Plant List group to deal with Indian Plants.

Apologise if someone doesn't like my earlier quotations.

[Prashant awale]

Thanks Dear HS Ji for sharing yr views. What i understand is that
there are two things, one is the plant list and second one is the
regional flora.

I would like to share one of my observation w.r.t. Ehretia sp..

While we were discussing Ehretia sp. posted by Balkar ji, Gurcharan
Singh ji has mentioned that "Kew Plant List treats E. aspera as
synonym of E. laevis".

Where as "Flora of Bombay-- T.Cooke” treats these 2 differently,
Ehretia laevis as E.laevis,Roxb. and Ehretia aspera as E.aspera,Roxb.
Flora has also provided the keys for both.

So my understanding is, along with plant list, regional floras should
also be reffered and it becomes all the more necessay when we are
reffereing to some endemic sp.

Thanks,

Regards
Prashant

[H S]

yes prashant ji rightly said.

regards,

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Prashant awale <pka...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Dear HS Ji for sharing yr views. What i understand is that
there are two things, one is the plant list and second one is the
regional flora.

I would like to share one of my observation w.r.t. Ehretia sp..

While we were discussing Ehretia sp. posted by Balkar ji,   Gurcharan
Singh ji has mentioned that   "Kew Plant List treats E. aspera as
synonym of E. laevis".

 Where as "Flora of Bombay-- T.Cooke” treats these 2 differently,
Ehretia laevis as E.laevis,Roxb. and Ehretia aspera as E.aspera,Roxb.
Flora has also provided the keys for both.

So my understanding is, along with plant list, regional floras should
also be reffered and it becomes all the more necessay when we are
reffereing to some endemic sp.

Thanks,

Regards
Prashant