RE: [HG-new] Digest for hurdygurdy@googlegroups.com - 8 Messages in 2 Topics
michael
From:
hurdy...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hurdy...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: 18 December 2012 08:24
To: Digest Recipients
Subject: [HG-new] Digest for
hurdy...@googlegroups.com - 8 Messages in 2 Topics
Group: http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy/topics
§ Christmas music. the Horses Branle [7 Updates]
§ Second Midwest HG Worshop, 2013 [1 Update]
"michael"
<mic...@muskett-music.co.uk> Dec 17 08:30PM
Subject: horses branle
I notice that music is often played too fast, often to the point when it
ceases to be music. In particular the Horses Branle, so popular at this time
of year, is often played pell mell. A suitable pulse or tempo should be no
faster then 100 beats per minute. Ding dong merrily, which is also a song,
should be taken at 88 if a scramble is to be avoided.
A piece of music should be played according to its purpose, which in this
case is dance. It should be savoured and enjoyed by all who hear it and not
treated like last week's meal inadvertently eaten.
Michael Muskett.
Musician.
HNY : MC
Andy
Carter <andyc...@hotmail.com> Dec 17 09:45PM
Hear, hear! If you're going to play a note or two, why skimp!
Although sometimes I do play a 'dance' piece far too slowly for comfortable
movement, or change the time signature, or rhythm - because I can!
(Um, I guess that means I am changing the purpose to exploring alternative
renditions of a particular sequence of notes...)
if you are playing for yourself you can
do what you like! But if you are
playing to let others delight in a piece of music true to its period it usual
to stick to its original intention. This is the norm for all musical
performance.
Thanks for greetings- I can now walk in house with a stick!
Have a good Christmas Michael (and all) You too.
:-D
Andy
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: michael
Sent: 17/12/2012 20:30
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [HG-new] Christmas music. the Horses Branle
Subject: horses branle
I notice that music is often played too fast, often to the point when it
ceases to be music. In particular the Horses Branle, so popular at this time
of year, is often played pell mell. A suitable pulse or tempo should be no
faster then 100 beats per minute. Ding dong merrily, which is also a song,
should be taken at 88 if a scramble is to be avoided.
A piece of music should be played according to its purpose, which in this
case is dance. It should be savoured and enjoyed by all who hear it and not
treated like last week's meal inadvertently eaten.
Michael Muskett.
Musician.
HNY : MC
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Elizabeth
Gilmore <gilm...@eou.edu> Dec 17 01:54PM -0800
that is so true.... I play in a recorder quintet.. we just got two new
songs to rehears to play for dancers... and one we had the speed incorrect
and... we repeated part B, when it is only played once through... I also
do alot of english country dancing... and can appreciate a song done too
slowly or too fast for dancing... its really distracting to the dancers...
plus the music is beautiful!! and needs to be played
as it was meant to be
played! Thanks
–M
ps... I just bought a new hurdy which is why
I have this list serv.... but
the same applies to other instruments also.
All music, in fact-M
I am not familiar with Horses Branle.. can someone
send me the sheetmusic?
gilm...@eou.edu
"Geoff
Turner " <gylda...@hotmail.com> Dec 17 10:05PM
You need to be careful when you say "played as it should be".
Obviously when playing for dancing the speed is set, but why else should it be?
Music is played by the player and enjoyed or not by the listener at their whim.
As to the number of parts in the horses branle it is generally played in England different to France, but unless you are being a
purist if you are playing unaccompanied, play it how you feel. The horses branle exists in more than one version from antiquity
and they are quite different.
If we are at home we play for ourselves, but if we play in public it is for the pleasure of others. It is only when we are skilled musicians that we can play for ourselves while others eavesdrop. (Was that Rostropovich?)
Rant over.
GeoffGeoff</div>
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Gilmore <gilm...@eou.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:54:26
To: <hurdy...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [HG-new] Christmas music. the Horses Branle
that is so true.... I play in a recorder quintet.. we just got two new songs to
rehears to play for dancers... and one we had the speed incorrect and... we
repeated part B, when it is only played once through... I also do alot of
english country dancing... and can appreciate a song done too slowly or
too fast for dancing... its really distracting to the dancers... plus the music
is beautiful!! and needs to be played as it was meant to be played!
ps... I just bought a new hurdy which is why I have this list serv.... but the
same applies to other instruments also.
I am not familiar with Horses Branle.. can someone send me the sheetmusic?
gilm...@eou.edu <mailto:gilm...@eou.edu>
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 12:30 PM, michael <mic...@muskett-music.co.uk
<mailto:mic...@muskett-music.co.uk> > wrote:
Subject: horses branle
I notice that music is often played too fast, often to the point when it
ceases to be music. In particular the Horses Branle, so popular at this time of
year, is often played pell mell. A suitable pulse or tempo should be no faster
then 100 beats per minute. Ding dong merrily, which is also a song, should be
taken at 88 if a scramble is to be avoided.
A piece of music should be played according to its purpose, which in this case
is dance. It should be savoured and enjoyed by all who hear it and not treated
like last week's meal inadvertently eaten.
Michael Muskett.
Musician.
HNY : MC
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cwhill
<cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk> Dec 18 01:13AM
True but many players (of all instruments) seem to think that, by
playing something fast, it means they are good. It takes more skill to
play a tune within a reasonable approximation of how the writer intended
it to be played (a can of worms in itself). In my many years on the folk
circuit, I heard so many poor players play things far too fast in the
vain attempt to (a) show expertise in the instrument and (b) to hide the
mistakes. Neither work, of course.
Tunes generally sound better the way they were written but I daresay
Andre Rieu would disagree as he turns most things into waltzes anyway so
it can work :)
Colin Hill
On 17/12/2012 22:05, Geoff Turner wrote:
Sorry, can’t
remember what Geoff wrote, but someone was querying how we know what was played
long ago, as we weren’t there. But other people were and a musicologist
will turn to them. In this instance we have the wonderful book by Arbeau (1589) which clearly tells us why we play the music,
how it guides
the dancers and how the branles , galliards, marches
etc must be accompanied by a steady drum beat. To make up for our absence a
musicologist will turn to texts of the period and so receive enlightenment. If there
are other texts of this time giving different versions of the H Branle I would be pleased to know of them.
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Arle
Lommel <arle....@gmail.com>
Dec 18 07:35AM +0100
Interesting issue.
I just played the Horses Branle for children in a school a few weeks ago. My
playing speed started out about 90 and accelerated (deliberately) to 105,
marginally faster than what Michael recommends, but perhaps given the audience
and purpos (showing different playing styles for one
tune), I might be forgiven for drifting past the 100 mark. (In this case the
purpose was actually *not* dance.)
Children respond well to
simple tunes with a strong steady beat (vide pop music) and we used this to great success in our
concerts for children & Parents. Small adjustments to the tempo will be
made according to circumstance, nationality & mood of the gathering, etc. Yes,
the interpretation of music is flexible & not rigid but working from knowledge and general musicianship.
That said, my initial
reaction to Michael's posting must reveal me as American (what has nationality to do with it? Music is
international!: I found the statement, with its seeming
implication that good taste in this issue must conform to what Michael thinks,
a trifle, well, dictatorial,(But
refer to Arbeau, NOT TO ME! and I found
Geoff’s response much more to my liking. (Michael, I am not saying *you*
are dictatorial. Please do not misunderstand me: you were making an
authoritative statement, but *I* took it another way.)
But on further reflection I had to confess that Michael has a real overall
point: many musicians equate playing quickly with [out] skill. We stand in awe of the seeming
wizardry evident in someone who can play a very fast piece. The danger then is
that we try to play quickly to show skill, even though a pulled back playing
style (where you know they *could* play something fast but they aren’t)
usually sounds much better (even for very fast pieces, that sense of pulling
back usually helps). A piece
played too fast has no strength and runs away. Playing slower with a solid pulse
is much more impressive.
So while I might disagree with Michael’s phrasing, it is well worth
keeping his point in mind that most pieces have an internal logic and tempo
that works best for them and that willy-nilly speeding things up *without
understanding* is a bad thing. [It’s called musicianship]
Where I would disagree with Michael’s words (although perhaps not his
intent?) and agree with Geoff, however, is that for the musician who does
things with care and understanding, things can be changed, even drastically. As
an example, the received wisdom in the first half of the twentieth century was
that Beethoven's Fifth should be performed at about 2/3 the tempo of current
performance. It was positively shocking when the first performances were made
at the current tempo, with some listeners appalled. Today we find the older performances
to sound rather funereal. And where did I see a ref to Beethoven & tempos? In
the early 20th cent the German conductors were influenced by Wagners’ romanticism & tempos became slower. But
the argument of the time was that the metronome which Maelzel
gave to B;hvn was faulty! We
must beware of falling into such pits of arrogance. It was at last corrected by
those who explored Early Music where researchers/performers were more
objective. What a relief! And what extra pleasure we gain from this. Instead of a semi-dirge, firmness and vigour.]
In the case at hand here, it could be very satisfactory for both player and
dancers, for instance, to start out rather slowly and build up the tempo until
things break down. In the right context, with willing dancers, I see no reason
one could not gradually push Horses Branle up from a leisurely pace to 130 bpm,
leaving everyone pleasantly exhausted and challenged. I have been a dancer for
things like that that were great fun: at the end you no longer know how to move
and that breakdown of knowledge and sense is very satisfying. Seems weird to me.
Thus I think there are two dangers. One is when we assume we know the context
or that onone context applies and make prescriptive,
absolute statements (*this* is how Horses Branle should be played/danced) that
place a single aesthetic ideal up at the ideal. The other is when we don't know
the context of “standard” performance (which is prescriptive and to
some degree absolute) and violate it in ignorace
(e.g., I have no idea how Horses Branle is normally played, so I am going to
treat it like a speed contest because I don't know any better). [I suggest you read the book! Orchesography if
you haven’t already done so – and who can interpret ancient music
by guesswork?] I get the feeling that the lack of
musical knowledge is rife and I make a plea for more understanding of what is
being played.. I do find in general there is a lack of
will to learn among HG players. On all other instruments it is standard to have
lessons regularly and learn about music, notation and technique together. Our HG
Method teaches only how to control the instrument and your fingers, while
saying nothing about making music. This can no be learned from a book but needs
a knowledgeable and enthusiastic teacher…] can't speak for
Michael, but I am assuming he is objecting to the latter, not to the player who
knows what he or she is doing and deviates from the standard with intention,
skill, and knowledge. If that is so, I would agree: we need to know the
performance tradition and not be naive in our playing and having knowledgeable
players give their view on the tradition has tremendous value. (It gets really fun,
however, when knowledgeable players disagree in their interpretation of the
tradition…)
Best,
Arle
Elizabeth
Gilmore <gilm...@eou.edu> Dec 17 10:54PM -0800
CWhill... thankyou for saying that... I have noticed that about some
people also...I have played with people who think that playing fast
means they are doing it well when in fact they werent. Its kind of a
show off thing... sometimes it is appropriate, but sometimes not. And
the quality goes down when the quantity of notes goes
up.. [Playing too fast is a
robotic thing which is meaningless. In the vain a
attempt to show off they demean themselves. Listen to any music channel and you will
always find that bands play in time and with a regular pulse. HG players do not]
Tom
LOzano <zanfo...@gmail.com> Dec 17 08:46PM -0500
Dear friends,
Just a reminder before this year ends that our Second Midwest HG workshop
in Bloomington, Indiana will take place again on Oct 2-6,
2013. Save the
dates for a great GH adventure. We will post more details later, but for
the moment, Robert Green, Juan Wijngaard and Michael Opps will be the
instructors.
I wish you all a great time during the Holydays and a 2013 full of fabulous
cranking.
For more info and questions you can contact me: tlozan...@yahoo.com
or you can check at:
www.earlymusicinmotion.org
<http://www.earlymusicinmotion.org>
Best,
Tom Lozano
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Arle Lommel
(what has nationality to do with it? Music is international!
(But refer to Arbeau, NOT TO ME!
I have been a dancer for things like that that were great fun: at the end you no longer know how to move and that breakdown of knowledge and sense is very satisfying.Seems weird to me.