Christmas music. the Horses Branle

[michael]

 Subject: horses branle

 I notice that music is often played too fast, often to the point when it ceases to be music. In particular the Horses Branle, so popular at this time of year, is often played pell mell. A suitable pulse or tempo should be no faster then 100 beats per minute. Ding dong merrily, which is also a song, should be taken at 88 if a scramble is to be avoided.

A piece of music should be played according to its purpose, which in this case is dance. It should be savoured and enjoyed by all who hear it and not treated like last week’s meal inadvertently eaten.

Michael Muskett.

Musician.

HNY : MC

 

 

[Andy Carter]

Hear, hear! If you're going to play a note or two, why skimp!

Although sometimes I do play a 'dance' piece far too slowly for comfortable movement, or change the time signature, or rhythm - because I can!
(Um, I guess that means I am changing the purpose to exploring alternative renditions of a particular sequence of notes...)

Have a good Christmas Michael (and all)
:-D

Andy

Sent from my Windows Phone

---

From: michael
Sent: 17/12/2012 20:30
To: hurdy...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [HG-new] Christmas music. the Horses Branle

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "hurdygurdy" group.
To post to this group, send email to hurdy...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
hurdygurdy+...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy
 
The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found at http://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. To reduce spam, posts from new subscribers are held pending approval by the webmaster.

[Elizabeth Gilmore]

that is so true.... I play in a recorder quintet.. we just got two new songs to rehears to play for dancers... and one we had the speed incorrect and... we repeated part B, when it is only played once through...  I also do alot of english country dancing...  and can appreciate a song done too slowly or too fast for dancing... its really distracting to the dancers... plus the music is beautiful!!  and needs to be played as it was meant to be played!

ps... I just bought a new hurdy which is why I have this list serv.... but the same applies to other instruments also.

 

I am not familiar with Horses Branle.. can someone send me the sheetmusic? gilm...@eou.edu

--

[Geoff Turner]

You need to be careful when you say "played as it should be". Obviously when playing for dancing the speed is set, but why else should it be? Music is played by the player and enjoyed or not by the listener at their whim. As to the number of parts in the horses branle it is generally played in England different to France, but unless you are being a purist if you are playing unaccompanied, play it how you feel. The horses branle exists in more than one version from antiquity and they are quite different.

Rant over.
GeoffGeoff</div>

-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Gilmore <gilm...@eou.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:54:26
To: <hurdy...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [HG-new] Christmas music. the Horses Branle

that is so true.... I play in a recorder quintet.. we just got two new songs to rehears to play for dancers... and one we had the speed incorrect and... we repeated part B, when it is only played once through...  I also do alot of english country dancing...  and can appreciate a song done too slowly or too fast for dancing... its really distracting to the dancers... plus the music is beautiful!!  and needs to be played as it was meant to be played!
ps... I just bought a new hurdy which is why I have this list serv.... but the same applies to other instruments also.
 

I am not familiar with Horses Branle.. can someone send me the sheetmusic? gilm...@eou.edu <mailto:gilm...@eou.edu>

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 12:30 PM, michael <mic...@muskett-music.co.uk <mailto:mic...@muskett-music.co.uk> > wrote:



 Subject: horses branle
 I notice that music is often played too fast, often to the point when it ceases to be music. In particular the Horses Branle, so popular at this time of year, is often played pell mell. A suitable pulse or tempo should be no faster then 100 beats per minute. Ding dong merrily, which is also a song, should be taken at 88 if a scramble is to be avoided.
A piece of music should be played according to its purpose, which in this case is dance. It should be savoured and enjoyed by all who hear it and not treated like last week's meal inadvertently eaten.
Michael Muskett.
Musician.
HNY : MC
 
 
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "hurdygurdy" group.

To post to this group, send email to hurdy...@googlegroups.com <mailto:hurdy...@googlegroups.com>

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

hurdygurdy+...@googlegroups.com <mailto:hurdygurdy%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[cwhill]

True but many players (of all instruments) seem to think that, by
playing something fast, it means they are good. It takes more skill to
play a tune within a reasonable approximation of how the writer intended
it to be played (a can of worms in itself). In my many years on the folk
circuit, I heard so many poor players play things far too fast in the
vain attempt to (a) show expertise in the instrument and (b) to hide the
mistakes. Neither work, of course.
Tunes generally sound better the way they were written but I daresay
Andre Rieu would disagree as he turns most things into waltzes anyway so
it can work :)

Colin Hill

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2637/5466 - Release Date: 12/17/12

[Arle Lommel]

Interesting issue.

I just played the Horses Branle for children in a school a few weeks ago. My playing speed started out about 90 and accelerated (deliberately) to 105, marginally faster than what Michael recommends, but perhaps given the audience and purpose (showing different playing styles for one tune), I might be forgiven for drifting past the 100 mark. (In this case the purpose was actually *not* dance.)

That said, my initial reaction to Michael's posting must reveal me as American: I found the statement, with its seeming implication that good taste in this issue must conform to what Michael thinks, a trifle, well, dictatorial, and I found Geoff’s response much more to my liking. (Michael, I am not saying *you* are dictatorial. Please do not misunderstand me: you were making an authoritative statement, but *I* took it another way.)

But on further reflection I had to confess that Michael has a real overall point: many musicians equate playing quickly with skill. We stand in awe of the seeming wizardry evident in someone who can play a very fast piece. The danger then is that we try to play quickly to show skill, even though a pulled back playing style (where you know they *could* play something fast but they aren’t) usually sounds much better (even for very fast pieces, that sense of pulling back usually helps).

So while I might disagree with Michael’s phrasing, it is well worth keeping his point in mind that most pieces have an internal logic and tempo that works best for them and that willy-nilly speeding things up *without understanding* is a bad thing.

Where I would disagree with Michael’s words (although perhaps not his intent?) and agree with Geoff, however, is that for the musician who does things with care and understanding, things can be changed, even drastically. As an example, the received wisdom in the first half of the twentieth century was that Beethoven's Fifth should be performed at about 2/3 the tempo of current performance. It was positively shocking when the first performances were made at the current tempo, with some listeners appalled. Today we find the older performances to sound rather funereal.

In the case at hand here, it could be very satisfactory for both player and dancers, for instance, to start out rather slowly and build up the tempo until things break down. In the right context, with willing dancers, I see no reason one could not gradually push Horses Branle up from a leisurely pace to 130 bpm, leaving everyone pleasantly exhausted and challenged. I have been a dancer for things like that that were great fun: at the end you no longer know how to move and that breakdown of knowledge and sense is very satisfying.

Thus I think there are two dangers. One is when we assume we know the context or that only one context applies and make prescriptive, absolute statements (*this* is how Horses Branle should be played/danced) that place a single aesthetic ideal up at the ideal. The other is when we don't know the context of “standard” performance (which is prescriptive and to some degree absolute) and violate it in ignorance (e.g., I have no idea how Horses Branle is normally played, so I am going to treat it like a speed contest because I don't know any better).

I can't speak for Michael, but I am assuming he is objecting to the latter, not to the player who knows what he or she is doing and deviates from the standard with intention, skill, and knowledge. If that is so, I would agree: we need to know the performance tradition and not be naive in our playing and having knowledgeable players give their view on the tradition has tremendous value. (It gets really fun, however, when knowledgeable players disagree in their interpretation of the tradition…)

Best,

Arle

[Elizabeth Gilmore]

CWhill... thankyou for saying that... I have noticed that about some
people also...I have played with people who think that playing fast
means they are doing it well when in fact they werent. Its kind of a
show off thing... sometimes it is appropriate, but sometimes not. And
the quality goes down when the quantity of notes goes up..

[Augusto de Ornellas Abreu]

Oh, don't even get me started on Irish music and sessions, or bands that play Irish folk. Traditionally, it is never so, but I've played in so many occasions where the musicians saw the audience get excited and dance, and then they kept speeding up till all that is beautiful in jigs and reels was lost.

Augusto

[Drewstix45]

 Interesting thread.

There are those that are 'purists' and wish to present this piece of music, or any other as close to its original form as possible, through tunings, articulation and tempo.The achievement of this dependant only upon the skill, both as a performer and musician, of the person playing. 

Having a definite tempo whilst practising is both helpful and useful in understanding the melody and mood of the piece of music being played. It also helps with improving the skill of the instrument played. Having someone brave enough to suggest a tempo for this piece of music is a great help for those starting out, or learning this piece as part of a new repertoire. 

However, performing the piece of music live in front of an audience is not about what tempo, tunings, etc. should be used - that is what rehearsals are for. Performing music live to the public is about engaging them in what you want to show. And ultimately this is something universal - the beauty of the music. Whether it be music to listen to - or music to dance to. And in this forum there is also showing the beauty of the instrument played as well.  

 

To what extent you are able to engage your audience is learnt through experience - being flexible to adapt - the example given of speeding up or slowing down the tempo of the music is a skill much needed in dance music; especially if the beer is flowing. You can only do this by knowing the music you are playing. And this comes from rehearsing and listening to the other musicians you are playing with.

On the other hand, there are those that just 'go for it'. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. That's live music.

We can all be intelligent and knowledgeable about this instrument and music  - myself included, but as someone wrote, 'the true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination. Music evolves, traditional as well - even changes time signatures and tempo. That is the creative process - imagination - having and wanting to say something.

Tempo is a tool to aid in this process

 

[Ron Geering / Barbara Blair]

This reminds me of playing in one of Tommy McCarthy's sessions in Milltown Malbay a few years back. An elderly fiddle player, sitting next to me, leaned over and asked where i was from. I said I lived near Boston (actually Cape Cod). "Oh!" says he, "I've heard they play play really fast there." "Yes" I replied "too fast, I think."

[Elizabeth Gilmore]

I guess people can play the music any way they want...music is something that is shared by nature.... the music I like is appealing to me in one part because of its history..  I like it the way it is traditionally played.. THATS WHY I like it.. I guess the only thing I would be concerned about is  ... if the true tradition of the songs is lost.  And yes, I know things evolve... but I just hope that the different traditions are not lost in the scramble.

I have been learning about Old Time Appalachian music because I have taken up the fiddle (at 60)  and I love the old time pieces... they are wonderful... But the opinion among the people I have learned old time  is it is traditional.. and the bluegrass has evolved from the competition  and IT is the stuff that is played really fast.  The old time music is not always played fast or is it real complicated.  That is its beauty... its simplicity... that comes from the people who made it.  That is a tratition I hope is never lost... it is one that is ours.

The other music I like is irish... and I agree...irish sometimes is played so fast it loses the integrity of the song and become a show off piece for the musicians... But.. it is really fun to take a jig and play it slowly

 

I also folkdance.. english country, contra... and we just did a dance called Prime Ministers Jig... it had a write up with the syllabus... from the man who created the dance.  he said that he was enjoying watching the dance evolve in the respect that as the dance became more known, people had given the different parts of the dance names.. when he had created it, he had not given the different parts name... but he, the creator, was enjoying watching what people did with his dance...

so there are all sides to this discussion....

But I am for TRADITION. not being lost

[Roy Trotter]

"Dance Music" has a function and is "fairly" useless if it is not used as it was intended . I tend to try to think of those tunes in the context of the dance. I know some people that need to think of it as a race: "I'm the fastest on the block..." and we think " Meh, Beginner ....". Granted, the "proper" tempo tends to be pretty boring for non-dancers. Still, I think developing the habit of the proper (useful) tempo is always good. With no dancers, no audience, who cares? But there might be an unpleasant answer to the question of "Why no ...? "     You reckon ?
   There are plenty of tunes that might be more of a challenge. I suspect that if you played 300 branles at "the proper speed" rather than just one at 300 BPM people would hafta quit calling you "beginner". (Ha Ha ?) One could develop that "taste", etc ... all sorts of wonderful things.

Roy T.

[cwhill]

There's also the fact that a lot of music has a beauty and form that can
be lost if played too fast. Dance music is a good example and, in
particular, Morris. The tempo is everything and if you compare the tunes
played by the average guy and that played by someone involved in the
dance, I find the tune meaningless for the former yet inspirational by
the latter. Generally, music created for a purpose sounds better when
played "as if" for that purpose although I will accept the fact that
some tunes can be adapted and still retain the musicality.
I think we all agree that a beginner playing for speed is not what we
want to hear but an experienced player who raises the tempo can be
acceptable.

Colin Hill

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "hurdygurdy" group.
> To post to this group, send email to hurdy...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> hurdygurdy+...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy
>
> The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found
> at http://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. To reduce spam, posts
> from new subscribers are held pending approval by the webmaster.
>

> No virus found in this message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2637/5468 - Release Date: 12/18/12

>



-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2637/5468 - Release Date: 12/18/12

[Tania]

Well said, Arle. I agree wholeheartedly, especially in the case of the Cheveaux, which is, basically, a nice tune for a very boring dance. The other tune Michael refers to, le branle de l'official (to which G. R. Woodward set his "Ding Dong Merrily on High" lyric) is, in contrast, a tune which is fun and satisfying to play at any tempo. The dance itself is also fun. I've always enjoyed playing Official at whatever speed suits whomever I'm playing with, be they musicians or dancers, while with Cheveaux, there's always the inclination to keep stepping up the speed to keep musicians and dancers alike from falling asleep!

On Monday, December 17, 2012 9:35:49 PM UTC-9, Arle Lommel wrote:

Interesting issue.

...

[MITC...@aol.com]

Tania...I never realized that "Ding Dong Merrily on High" is a French dance tune (Branle de l'Official)! I can definitely hear it on the gurdy, and would love to see the dance. As for Branle des Cheveaux, our French dance caller has substituted a different dance for that tune...it's done at our dances as a circle dance that includes a pawing motion with the foot at one point, and it's a lot more fun than the original. No idea if he and his partner learned it or invented it. If I come across a video, I'll post the link.

 

Mitch Gordon

Guerneville, California, US

[MITC...@aol.com]

Here's a video snippet of the dance we do to Branle des Cheveaux...not rocket science, but enjoyable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaMJuJ3smsI&list=UU_LtSr8oWIhx_Baeqy5RWGw&index=17

[Tania]

Thanks for sharing that. The "c" part they're doing, with the foot stamping, is almost straight out of Arbeau. What your caller's done is replace the endless repetition of double-left, double-right, double-left, double-right with something more interesting and fun. Not really a branle anymore, though. Perhaps it needs a new name... Chevaux a roue, perhaps?

[cwhill]

On 21/12/2012 09:19, Tania wrote:
> Thanks for sharing that. The "c" part they're doing, with the foot stamping, is almost straight out of Arbeau. What your caller's done is replace the endless repetition of double-left, double-right, double-left, double-right with something more interesting and fun. Not really a branle anymore, though. Perhaps it needs a new name... Chevaux a roue, perhaps?
>

Yes, thank you. That was most enjoyable and the steady dance tempo made
me see the tune in a new light. I prefer the steady dance tempo - a
personal thing, of course.

Colin Hill

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2637/5476 - Release Date: 12/21/12