Tape Replacement?

[Cheese]

Hi Everyone,

I am new to the group, but have read through a lot of the previous
posts and noticed the tape being an ongoing problem. I am currently
planning my first Hexayurt for Burning Man this year and hope to get
as much input as possible. I came across this tape and it looks like
it may be a decent replacement. It is designed for roofs and it has
an aluminum surface to protect against sun. The price seems
reasonable when on sale. If anyone has an opportunity to try it,
please let me know.

http://www.harborfreight.com/clearance/3-inch-x-25-ft-quick-roof-repair-65611.html

Thank you

[Richard Ginn]

Here's the manufacturer's page for it:

http://www.cofair.com/roof.aspx

I have no experience with it but it looks promising!  Good find.

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[Spiral Syzygy]

This tape would be good to cover the bi-filament but I'm not sure it
would be strong enough on its own.

I'm not sure how much work I can reasonable put forward on this idea,
but my roommate and co-hexayurt-builder is exploring the idea of using
really heavy duty velcro similar to what is on Husky Hang-alls. It's
about 4" wide and holds several hundreds of pounds. it would be
totally reusable and should hold even when applied in dusty
conditions. The tape leaves much to be desired when you're trying to
build a hexayurt on the Playa.

Spiral

[Kathleen Ellis]

I used some similar aluminum foil tape to cover the edges of my yurt pieces, but it could never substitute for bifilament when it comes to keeping the roof and wall pieces attached to each other. The aluminum tape sticks well, but it tears and gouges very very easily. The tape holding the roof and walls together needs to not tear when torqued/twisted against itself.

I'm extra-excited about Spiral and Bob's project to experiment with the heavy-duty velcro and have donated the Church of Sagantology for the experiment.

[Spiral Syzygy]

They basic idea is to sandwich the foam boards in thin ply-wood
sheeting, bevel the edges for a close fit. Bolt the velcro to the
plywood. Hold the panels together with velcro. This should make for a
strong and reusable hexayurt that doesn't require 1.5 - 2 rolls of
tape each time you set it up. The initial cost will be higher, but
should be offset by the reusability of the shelter. With all that is
on Bob and I's plate, there is no guarantee this will see the light of
day.

Spiral

[Cheese]

This is not just aluminum tape, it says is had 5 puncture resistant
layers under the aluminum. I may pick up a roll just to see what it
is like.

On Jan 25, 9:14 am, Kathleen Ellis <k...@thleen.org> wrote:
> I used some similar aluminum foil tape to cover the edges of my yurt pieces,
> but it could never substitute for bifilament when it comes to keeping the
> roof and wall pieces attached to each other. The aluminum tape sticks well,
> but it tears and gouges very very easily. The tape holding the roof and
> walls together needs to not tear when torqued/twisted against itself.
>
> I'm extra-excited about Spiral and Bob's project to experiment with the
> heavy-duty velcro and have donated the Church of Sagantology for the
> experiment.
>

> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:47 AM, Spiral Syzygy <spiralena...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > This tape would be good to cover the bi-filament but I'm not sure it
> > would be strong enough on its own.
>
> > I'm not sure how much work I can reasonable put forward on this idea,
> > but my roommate and co-hexayurt-builder is exploring the idea of using
> > really heavy duty velcro similar to what is on Husky Hang-alls. It's
> > about 4" wide and holds several hundreds of pounds. it would be
> > totally reusable and should hold even when applied in dusty
> > conditions. The tape leaves much to be desired when you're trying to
> > build a hexayurt on the Playa.
>
> > Spiral
>

> > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 4:39 AM, Cheese <jper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Everyone,
>
> > > I am new to the group, but have read through a lot of the previous
> > > posts and noticed the tape being an ongoing problem.  I am currently
> > > planning my first Hexayurt for Burning Man this year and hope to get
> > > as much input as possible.  I came across this tape and it looks like
> > > it may be a decent replacement.  It is designed for roofs and it has
> > > an aluminum surface to protect against sun.  The price seems
> > > reasonable when on sale.  If anyone has an opportunity to try it,
> > > please let me know.
>

> >http://www.harborfreight.com/clearance/3-inch-x-25-ft-quick-roof-repa...

>
> > > Thank you
>
> > > --
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> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

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>
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> > .

[Cheese]

Since Velcro is so expensive for wide pieces, do you think that 3/4'
wide strips sewn on the outside edges of a 4"-6" wide strips of
waterproof canvas could be used?

On Jan 25, 10:05 am, Spiral Syzygy <spiralena...@gmail.com> wrote:
> They basic idea is to sandwich the foam boards in thin ply-wood
> sheeting, bevel the edges for a close fit. Bolt the velcro to the
> plywood. Hold the panels together with velcro. This should make for a
> strong and reusable hexayurt that doesn't require 1.5 - 2 rolls of
> tape each time you set it up. The initial cost will be higher, but
> should be offset by the reusability of the shelter. With all that is
> on Bob and I's plate, there is no guarantee this will see the light of
> day.
>
> Spiral
>
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Kathleen Ellis <k...@thleen.org> wrote:
> > I used some similar aluminum foil tape to cover the edges of my yurt pieces,
> > but it could never substitute for bifilament when it comes to keeping the
> > roof and wall pieces attached to each other. The aluminum tape sticks well,
> > but it tears and gouges very very easily. The tape holding the roof and
> > walls together needs to not tear when torqued/twisted against itself.
>
> > I'm extra-excited about Spiral and Bob's project to experiment with the
> > heavy-duty velcro and have donated the Church of Sagantology for the
> > experiment.
>

> > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:47 AM, Spiral Syzygy <spiralena...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
>
> >> This tape would be good to cover the bi-filament but I'm not sure it
> >> would be strong enough on its own.
>
> >> I'm not sure how much work I can reasonable put forward on this idea,
> >> but my roommate and co-hexayurt-builder is exploring the idea of using
> >> really heavy duty velcro similar to what is on Husky Hang-alls. It's
> >> about 4" wide and holds several hundreds of pounds. it would be
> >> totally reusable and should hold even when applied in dusty
> >> conditions. The tape leaves much to be desired when you're trying to
> >> build a hexayurt on the Playa.
>
> >> Spiral
>

> >> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 4:39 AM, Cheese <jper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Hi Everyone,
>
> >> > I am new to the group, but have read through a lot of the previous
> >> > posts and noticed the tape being an ongoing problem.  I am currently
> >> > planning my first Hexayurt for Burning Man this year and hope to get
> >> > as much input as possible.  I came across this tape and it looks like
> >> > it may be a decent replacement.  It is designed for roofs and it has
> >> > an aluminum surface to protect against sun.  The price seems
> >> > reasonable when on sale.  If anyone has an opportunity to try it,
> >> > please let me know.
>

> >> >http://www.harborfreight.com/clearance/3-inch-x-25-ft-quick-roof-repa...

[Spiral Syzygy]

It's hard to say as I don't think anyone has done it yet. Experementing and reporting your findings is highly encouraged :)  as for ply on only one side, I imagine if you used some bits of ply on top to stop the bolts in the velcro from pulling through or squashing the foam too much. I wouldn't sew a seam in. It would be hard to make the seam strong enough in my opinion. The benefit of the velcro is it is attached to nylon webbing. That is some strong stuff. Much stronger than bi-filament tape. The only possible draw back I can think of, ignoring cost, is that you may trade some holding power. Who knows. It could be very strong compared to tape. Did you have any links to velcro strips you could share?

On Jan 25, 2011 8:18 PM, "Cheese" <jpe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Since Velcro is so expensive for wide pieces, do you think that 3/4'
wide strips sewn on the outside edges of a 4"-6" wide strips of
waterproof canvas could be used?

On Jan 25, 10:05 am, Spiral Syzygy <spiralena...@gmail.com> wrote:

> They basic idea is to sandwich...

> > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:47 AM, Spiral Syzygy <spiralena...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
>
> >> This tape would be good to cover the bi-filament but I'm not sure it

> >> would be...

> >> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 4:39 AM, Cheese <jper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Hi Everyone,
>

> >> >...

> >> >http://www.harborfreight.com/clearance/3-inch-x-25-ft-quick-roof-repa...

>
> >> > Thank you
>
> >> > --
> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Go...

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[Cheese]

This is what I was thinking of, not a bad price for 25 yards.

http://www.amazon.com/Rip-Tie-Adhesive-Backed-Velcro-Yards/dp/B0002Z19U8

On Jan 25, 7:30 pm, Spiral Syzygy <spiralena...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's hard to say as I don't think anyone has done it yet. Experementing and
> reporting your findings is highly encouraged :)  as for ply on only one
> side, I imagine if you used some bits of ply on top to stop the bolts in the
> velcro from pulling through or squashing the foam too much. I wouldn't sew a
> seam in. It would be hard to make the seam strong enough in my opinion. The
> benefit of the velcro is it is attached to nylon webbing. That is some
> strong stuff. Much stronger than bi-filament tape. The only possible draw
> back I can think of, ignoring cost, is that you may trade some holding
> power. Who knows. It could be very strong compared to tape. Did you have any
> links to velcro strips you could share?
>

[Cheese]

I noticed they have 1" and 2" wide available when you hit the options
drop down. The 2" should negate any need for canvas and $75 is not
bad for 25 yards of 2" wide.

On Jan 25, 7:30 pm, Spiral Syzygy <spiralena...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's hard to say as I don't think anyone has done it yet. Experementing and
> reporting your findings is highly encouraged :)  as for ply on only one
> side, I imagine if you used some bits of ply on top to stop the bolts in the
> velcro from pulling through or squashing the foam too much. I wouldn't sew a
> seam in. It would be hard to make the seam strong enough in my opinion. The
> benefit of the velcro is it is attached to nylon webbing. That is some
> strong stuff. Much stronger than bi-filament tape. The only possible draw
> back I can think of, ignoring cost, is that you may trade some holding
> power. Who knows. It could be very strong compared to tape. Did you have any
> links to velcro strips you could share?
>

[Spiral Syzygy]

I was imagining running the velcro down the seams like the tape.
Thinking about your canvas idea a little bit more; you can probably
use some 6" wide webbing and sew the two inch velcro to both edges on
one side, like tire tracks. This would make a 6" piece of "tape" you
could run down the seams. The less you need to rely on adhesives, the
better, imho.

I had a different idea that I think it could be done with d-rings.
Basically, run the velcro/webbing strap across the seams in 3 - 4
places on each seam. Then have one big strap that goes all the way
around the walls and another along the bottom. This will stop the
walls from splaying out too much and collapsing the roof down.

I'm guessing that you would want to give yourself about 6" - 8" of
strapping to bolt into on the panels. Another foot or so to loop
through a ring and velcro down. This set up would let you include some
wiggle room while you build and you can cinch all the straps down when
everything is all lined up.

The design of the hexayurt puts most parts resting against the other
parts. They will basically stand up with some tape taking it together.
The issue comes when you have a heavy wind and uneven loading. This is
where that one big strap really comes in handy. It will force the
pressures on the roof into the walls and to the ground.

Another advancement may be to look into honeycomb boards. I bet some
cardboard or recycled plastic honeycomb sandwiched in some thing
durable and cheap (recycled ldpe/hdpe?) with one site metalized may
work pretty well. The cost would be up with these changes, but we're
talking a shelter that would probably last decades and could be set up
and taken down repeatedly.

Have fun experimenting and remember to tell us about how it turns out!

Spiral

[Ian Bates]

Also remember that you do not need full velcro coverage for super-solid structural integrity.  If you have 50% of all edge lengths solid with HQ velcro, the whole structure should be great. The strength of the yurt (ger) is also greatly increased by the wrap of the entire circumfrence with good engineering and intention.   DO it!   The strength of the hexayurt also lies in the geometry of it, not the bomber nature of the materials. Yes, things need to be attached well, but do not forget the important principles of durability, reusability, adaptability, and innovation.  I think that the hexayurt will thrive based on the open nature of creation (right Vinay?)... so I applaud the discourse, and am stoked to try to velcro my next house together! 

[Spiral Syzygy]

Just thought about using ratchet straps instead of velcro. Only issue
is that in my experience, the ratchet mechanisms don't do well in the
dust over time. If you bolt them to the boards, they won't lay flat
anymore either. Velcro seems like a winner here. Can't wait to see
what people end up building!

Spiral

[Ian Bates]

I agree with the implicit statement here:  The problems with the tape/ and the taping of the Hexayurt are the weakest links to be addressed.  The geometry is obviously bomber (and is the basis for the physical form).  The nature of the panels themselves is an open subject... but clearly there are many ways and forms that can successfully work.   

[Cheese]

I have made a few models out of card board that I cut into 4"x8"
pieces so it would be to scale. I definitely prefer the H13
hexayurt. The assembly was a lot easier. Looks like most of the
pieces can be permanently attached and folded for transport, leaving
only a few seams to take care on assembly, so Velcro may not be that
expensive

On Jan 25, 8:53 pm, Ian Bates <ianbat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Also remember that you do not need full velcro coverage for super-solid
> structural integrity.  If you have 50% of all edge lengths solid with HQ
> velcro, the whole structure should be great. The strength of the yurt (ger)
> is also greatly increased by the wrap of the entire circumfrence with good
> engineering and intention.   DO it!   The strength of the hexayurt also lies
> in the geometry of it, not the bomber nature of the materials. Yes, things
> need to be attached well, but do not forget the important principles of
> durability, reusability, adaptability, and innovation.  I think that the
> hexayurt will thrive based on the open nature of creation (right Vinay?)...
> so I applaud the discourse, and am stoked to try to velcro my next house
> together!
>

> > hexayurt+u...@googlegroups.com<hexayurt%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[Spiral Syzygy]

I completely agree. The tape leaves much to be desired. The basic idea
works well for emergency situations. The boards are easy to get, easy
to cut, and are relatively cheap. The tape is cost effective if you
don't plan to take them down and put them up again many times. In a
really dusty environment, like a desert, the tape is hard to apply.
Also for emergency purposes, it has been proposed to make them out of
plywood and use screws and wood strapping to hold it all together.

As for the panel designs, basically anything, cheap, easily available,
decently insulating, and relatively durable. Nice to have's would be:
waterproof, reflective solar radiation, relatively green to produce.
Polyiso board is nasty stuff. Nasty to mfg, nasty to dispose of, nasty
to breath the dust, and nasty to burn. I'm thinking a honeycomb
sandwich board would be most economical on the large scale. Perhaps
using recycled plastics or local materials for the cores and veneers.
The possible combinations of materials with a honeycomb sandwich panel
are innumerable. It just seems like the most economic use of materials
for making panels that meet our requirements.

Spiral

[Cheese]

That was something I was worried about using the Polysio board. I may
change my material design to a honeycomb sandwhich and then after
sealing the wood, put a final coat of this stuff on it.

http://www.dwellsmart.com/Products/Paint-Stains-Sealers-Wall-Coverings/EnerG-Heat-Reflective-Paint

On Jan 25, 9:23 pm, Spiral Syzygy <spiralena...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I completely agree. The tape leaves much to be desired. The basic idea
> works well for emergency situations. The boards are easy to get, easy
> to cut, and are relatively cheap. The tape is cost effective if you
> don't plan to take them down and put them up again many times. In a
> really dusty environment, like a desert, the tape is hard to apply.
> Also for emergency purposes, it has been proposed to make them out of
> plywood and use screws and wood strapping to hold it all together.
>
> As for the panel designs, basically anything, cheap, easily available,
> decently insulating, and relatively durable. Nice to have's would be:
> waterproof, reflective solar radiation, relatively green to produce.
> Polyiso board is nasty stuff. Nasty to mfg, nasty to dispose of, nasty
> to breath the dust, and nasty to burn. I'm thinking a honeycomb
> sandwich board would be most economical on the large scale. Perhaps
> using recycled plastics or local materials for the cores and veneers.
> The possible combinations of materials with a honeycomb sandwich panel
> are innumerable. It just seems like the most economic use of materials
> for making panels that meet our requirements.
>
> Spiral
>
> > The
> > nature of the panels themselves is an open subject... but clearly there are
> > many ways and forms that can successfully work.
>

> > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 9:53 PM, Spiral Syzygy <spiralena...@gmail.com>

[Chasomatic]

Is this an asphalt product?

> http://www.harborfreight.com/clearance/3-inch-x-25-ft-quick-roof-repa...
>
> Thank you

[Skye]

Following the thread with great interest.

Considered heat reflective paint previously, but disregarded it for cost. Spennndy.

[Spiral Syzygy]

The cost issue is relevant for sure. If you think about how long it
will last if you make it well and use good materials, it's worth it.

The Tuff-R foam board that is available in Chicago is about $13-$15 a
sheet. You need 12 for an 8' hexayurt. The tape is about $25-30/roll
and you need more than one roll each time you set up. $50 - $60 each
time you erect this thing. That adds up. Making it out of more durable
materials, with re-use in mind, brings the cost up initially. I
believe it will make up for it with time and use. The wear and tear on
the default materials is substantial after a week in the desert.

[Cheese]

I don't think so, there are no instruction to heat it. I will find out
when i get some and post.

[Cheese]

Ok, up date on the sealer tape. No go, it is pretty nasty stuff. I
am leaning towards attaching the panels with canvas strips.

[Skye]

I've been thinking about 4" industrial velcro....

[Dan Maki]

Wide velcro can be a pain to deal with.  It is VERY hard to pull it apart.  If you use the sticky back velcro tape the adhesive will let go before the hooks and loops!

LEVLHED

[Elliot]

Ya my problems with velcro are worries about affixing it well, and the fact that the yurt wont be waterproof (dustproof?) anymore.

[Spiral Syzygy]

Hey guys. I'm really glad to see people running with this idea. I
think some of the problems may be easier to overcome than it seems.

You don't want to rely on the adhesive to affix the velcro. You would
basically be back to tape at that point. It would be better to use
some kind of fasteners or screws to hold down the velcro. If you bevel
the board edges so they fit tightly, and maybe use some gorilla tape
or some other sort of rubbery foam adhesive to fill the gaps, you may
preserve the dust-free advantages, block out light in the gaps all
with out having to tape the insides with gorilla tape each time.

Just my $.02KWh
Spiral

[Elliot]

I think the fastener idea would be great for plywood yurts, but I'm a little worried they would end up slicing right through the insulation based yurts.

What were peoples thoughts on how to velcro anyways? The obvious choice would be to velcro up all the edges, but I think a better idea might be to do the edges like a kids sneekers (i.e. a number of horizontal straps going up each edge). This would of course mean that the edges wouldn't be light/dust/rain proof as is, but would require a lot less material (as well as less expensive material since you wont need the super wide velcro). I think doing it this way would also make it much stronger.

Anywho let me know what you kids think.

[Keith Brown]

Awesome idea!  Instead of taping the edges, just wrap the joining edges, hook on the left, loop on the right, so to speak.  In a perfect world (read bulk purchase) the ideal tape would be 4 inches wide base with a 1 inch wide hook or loop strip down the middle.  This would bind and reinforce and join, all in one prep.  Wall setup would be carefully join one corner, then tip-squeeze the edge together... move to next segment.  I suspect I'd still want to tape the roof seams traditionally for waterproofing.  One the other hand, I'd be tempter to make all the 8' walls 7' 9" so the roof would have a small but adequate eve to divert the rain (still tape the roof top seams) -- using the Velcro to join the roof and sides.  This might even make it setup-able by one person (build roof on ground, lift up one wall and place and press one wall segment, repeat).

-Keith

Sent from my iPad

[RichShumaker]

I have had success with Papertape on cardboard. The issue is of
course rain.
So I am working on that now with some type of coating to the
cardboard.
The other thing I am 'wondering' / exploring is using Stretch Plastic
wrap to wrap the 'ring' where the roof meets the walls.

Ideally I can pre-tape the entire hexayurt and then only need to tape
a single seam and attach the roof to the walls 'somehow'.

I am located in the LA CA area and I will be working on my next build
over the next few months.
If I can afford it I will be purchasing a pallet of honeycomb 1" from
ULine which I found to be one of the least expensive.
Have fun with the tape substitute and keep us update.

Rich Shumaker

[Cheese]

Everyone please try to beat up this idea because it seems almost
perfect to me...
What if you used tape only to hold the pieces of the roof and walls
together during initial setup, but used heavy gauge blown stretch wrap
for strength and weatherproofing? You could actually wrap the entire
Hexayurt and tie directly to an anchor. It is puncture resistant and
comes in many different thicknesses, 12 - 18" wide and comes in rolls
of 1500' for less than $20. You could wrap your roof over the joints
so the plastic overlaps and acts as shingles.

[Cheese]

Here is a link for the stretch wrap I am talking about.

http://www.uline.com/BL_2953/Blown-Stretch-Wrap

[Cheese]

So far benefits I can think of for the blown stretch wrap:

1. Very strong, 1600- 4000lbs uniform load strength
2. Adheres to itself, not to the Hexayurt so no risk of damage on
removal, so removal is fast and not messy.
3. I would assume you can recycle the wrap
4. Cost is very cheap. 1 x 1500' roll could be used for several setups
for $15
5. Rain and dust proof.
6. Can be applied to any material (plywood, Honeycomb, Tuff-R etc...)
7. No need to make anchors, simply wrap and tie with same material.

Cons?
1. Fire Hazard?

[Cheese]

Rich, I am in Temecula. Let me know when you start your build if you
need any help with construction or expanding on this plastic wrap
idea. I am going to start mine soon as well.

[Spiral Syzygy]

Well it may be a fire hazzard. But as it is used wharehouses all over it should be pretty well documented. I personally would not assume it is recyclable.

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[kenwinston caine]

RE: Stretch wrap:

Very interesting idea, Cheese!

I like that it adds tremendous tensile strength to the structure, as
well as waterproofing, if layered correctly, from bottom, up --
shingling, as you described.

Am wondering what its characteristics are in direct sunlight and 100-
plus-degree heat? Does it expand and sag? Yellow? Melt? How long until
it weathers and deteriorates?

I've used it indoors for packing and securing things and it IS easy to
use and is strong. And I think the longest I've ever left anything
wrapped in it is about six weeks and it certainly held up to that with
no problems.

Have not found it to be reusable, though. It stretches and wrinkles as
you wrap it on something. And it adheres to itself. You CAN unwrap it.
But that's slow going and it does not tend to unwrap (or wrap for that
matter) as a neat, flat sheet at full width.

But at $15 per 1500-foot roll (was that what it was, in lots of four?)
I doubt many of us would want to take all the time and effort required
to try to unwrap and re-roll it. It cuts easily, under tension, with
box cutter type knives.So take down would be super fast if you just
cut it at a couple seams where boards meet.

But then you have what I think is unrecycleable plastic waste. My
landfill doesn't accept that kind of plastic for recycling. Maybe
there is some place that does. And maybe there is some innovative use
for the waste material so that it can be reused somehow, even if it is
cut loose from the hexayurt.

A problem I do see:

Windows and door locations. How do you cut those out and maintain the
integrity of the wrap?

Best,
kwc

[Cheese]

I am planning on anchoring two posts and connecting them at the top
for a door frame to secure a lockable door. I think I can wrap around
the post and back the way I came and the same for the other side. I
am not planning on having any actual windows, but I am sure you could
just wrap over to allow light to pass through. For day time light I
think I am going to use water bottles in the roof from a video I found
online. It's pretty cool and just about free. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6e0_1211748007



Feb 13, 12:20 am, kenwinston caine <ken.winston.ca...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Richard Ginn]

hmmm....    if you made a hexayurt frame and wrapped it with plastic you'd have a greenhouse.  no insulation, but quick and easy, and wind and water tight.  for doors and windows you could place a frame where you want it and cut the center of the plastic and fold it back over the frame and tape it there.  then figure out how to close the openings (another fitting frame that you plastic wrap maybe).   throw tarps over it for light shading, and insulating blankets over or hung inside?   maybe a great circle wrapping pattern works well.

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[Scott Geller]

Might work on the outside. Playa dust is a problem for adhesion. But you still must tape the inside for stability