Deleted Growl via MacKeeper, but still getting update requests
Kristen
deleted it, and do NOT want to still be getting update requests. How
can I finally rid myself of Growl?
Chris Forsythe
Chris
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Kristen
This is VERY frustrating, I might add.
Chris Forsythe
What's frustrating? Our uninstaller is pretty easy to use, and once you find it and download it, that should be the end of this. Plus, I responded to you very shortly after you sent the email out asking the question, so in my mind this is all pretty much easy for you.
Kristen
1. I do not know how Growl got onto my computer.
2. I do not care how Growl got onto my computer - I simply don't want
it.
3. I do not want it on my computer AND it has asked me 2x a day (via
a POP-UP!) for the last week to update itself. (Which is ironic since,
apparently, your company is supposed to give you "complete control
over which notifications are shown" - never mind the fact that you
can't control the fact that you'll get pop-up update notices 2x a
day!)
4. I thought I had uninstalled it.
5. After I thought I'd uninstalled it, I'm STILL getting pop-up
update requests (for a program that I don't want anyway).
6. Now, instead of working, I'm sitting here trying to figure out how
to get rid of these irritating pop-up adds and am being told I have to
download ANOTHER something from you (a company I never wanted to
download something from in the first place) so that I can officially
uninstall the program.
7. In order to figure this all out, I had to subscribe to this google
discussion. (For the record, while I appreciate that you responded to
me shortly, I would rather NOT be forced to join a google discussion
just to take an aggravating and uninvited program off my computer.)
7. When I ask for clarification on your response (gee- I'm sorry I'm
not on the up & up with all the most obvious computer terminology),
you come back at me with attitude.
I just want this vexing program off my computer.
Now, why can't you, the apparent representative for Growl, just tell
me exactly where the uninstaller can be found? And for the record,
Google was not helpful at all. I still don't know what a "disk image"
is. Do you mean to say, "Download our growl PROGRAM , then run the
uninstaller."??
Evan Schoenberg, M.D.
Chris Forsythe
On Oct 1, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Kristen wrote:
> Well, what's frustrating about it is:
> 1. I do not know how Growl got onto my computer.
You didn't see the giant red link on our main page about not knowing how Growl got installed? That should have answered all of your "how the hell do I get this off my machine" questions.
> 2. I do not care how Growl got onto my computer - I simply don't want
> it.
Understood. This sucks for you and us.
> 3. I do not want it on my computer AND it has asked me 2x a day (via
> a POP-UP!) for the last week to update itself. (Which is ironic since,
> apparently, your company is supposed to give you "complete control
> over which notifications are shown" - never mind the fact that you
> can't control the fact that you'll get pop-up update notices 2x a
> day!)
How else is Growl supposed to notify users that there is an update? Serious question, I'd like to improve things.
> 4. I thought I had uninstalled it.
What did you do that you thought you had uninstalled it?
> 5. After I thought I'd uninstalled it, I'm STILL getting pop-up
> update requests (for a program that I don't want anyway).
Probably due to the dropbox reinstalling it problem.
> 6. Now, instead of working, I'm sitting here trying to figure out how
> to get rid of these irritating pop-up adds and am being told I have to
> download ANOTHER something from you (a company I never wanted to
> download something from in the first place) so that I can officially
> uninstall the program.
Growl isn't advertisement.
I highly doubt you downloaded Growl from us directly in the first place.
> 7. In order to figure this all out, I had to subscribe to this google
> discussion. (For the record, while I appreciate that you responded to
> me shortly, I would rather NOT be forced to join a google discussion
> just to take an aggravating and uninvited program off my computer.)
I appreciate not having to skim every single email and then approve it. You don't understand, at one point I was manually deleting 2000 emails a week for spam going to the old list. I'm sorry you feel this way, but we're not removing this requirement. Especially since the solution to your problem is blatant on our main page.
> 7. When I ask for clarification on your response (gee- I'm sorry I'm
> not on the up & up with all the most obvious computer terminology),
> you come back at me with attitude.
>
You came off as being a twat. I've had a bad day, having sat at DPS for four hours to remove one thing from my license. My apologies for coming across as an ass.
> I just want this vexing program off my computer.
>
Understood. I want to make things better for people in your situation. Follow what Evan just sent and let's see what we can do to improve things.
Evan Schoenberg, M.D.
On Oct 1, 2010, at 4:25 PM, Chris Forsythe wrote:
>> 3. I do not want it on my computer AND it has asked me 2x a day (via
>> a POP-UP!) for the last week to update itself. (Which is ironic since,
>> apparently, your company is supposed to give you "complete control
>> over which notifications are shown" - never mind the fact that you
>> can't control the fact that you'll get pop-up update notices 2x a
>> day!)
>
> How else is Growl supposed to notify users that there is an update? Serious question, I'd like to improve things.
Once per new version, and with a reasonable dialogue? The planned Sparkle integration fixes this issue, which is a completely legit complaint in the current version :)
-Evan
Chris Forsythe
But with the sparkle change we still have a random window that just pops up, which is part of the complaint. Agreed on the points you bring up, I just wanted to see what she thought was reasonable for her situation.
Evan Schoenberg, M.D.
You still have complete control - you can disable automatic version checking.
-Evan
Kristen
INSTALL growl ("Growl - Installing Growl - 2:11pm
Everything you need to start using Growl, including some extras and
scripts that we will detail later, are included in a disk image. ...")
I have read the page with the big bold red letters, but it instructs
me to remove Growl from within the program. Mind you, I have already
deleted the program, so it is impossible to follow your instructions.
Rest assured, while I may not know what a "disk image" is, I DID read
your website thoroughly, but have not been able to find my answer. I
now know more than I ever wanted to know about Growl, EXCEPT for how
to get rid of it.
Yes, if I had not "uninstalled" Growl via a 3rd party, I would
certainly be able to follow your "quite specific explanations and
instructions", but I am in a different category - your "quite specific
explanations and instructions" do not apply to me.
I have just downloaded growl and then hit "uninstall" which appears
successful. If I get another pop up, I will be back.
To answer your question about what you could change, I would suggest
you make the uninstaller something that could be downloaded unbundled
from the "disk image" (assuming that means your program) and put a
link to that right next to those big bold red letters.
Finally, I would not have even know (or cared) that Growl was on my
computer if it weren't for those inane pop-ups. $10 says that if you
did away with those, you'd see less griping and uninstalling.
Evan Schoenberg, M.D.
If I search for "growl disk image", the first hit I get is how to
INSTALL growl ("Growl - Installing Growl - 2:11pm
Everything you need to start using Growl, including some extras and
scripts that we will detail later, are included in a disk image. ...")
Yes, if I had not "uninstalled" Growl via a 3rd party, I would
certainly be able to follow your "quite specific explanations and
instructions", but I am in a different category - your "quite specific
explanations and instructions" do not apply to me.
To answer your question about what you could change, I would suggest
you make the uninstaller something that could be downloaded unbundled
from the "disk image" (assuming that means your program) and put a
link to that right next to those big bold red letters.
Kristen
easy to read)
On Oct 1, 2:25 pm, Chris Forsythe <ch...@growl.info> wrote:
> On Oct 1, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Kristen wrote:
>
> > Well, what's frustrating about it is:
> > 1. I do not know how Growl got onto my computer.
>
> You didn't see the giant red link on our main page about not knowing how Growl got installed? That should have answered all of your "how the hell do I get this off my machine" questions.
>
OUT WHO YOU WERE, WHY I WAS GETTING POP-UPS FROM YOU, AND HOW I COULD
GET RID OF YOU. IT'S JUST THAT I DON'T USE THAT DROPBOX THINGY OR THE
ZUMO SITE AND I CAN ONLY DREAM ABOUT BEING ABLE TO AFFORD THE CREATIVE
SUITE - SO MY QUESTION ABOUT HOW YOU GO ONTO MY COMPUTER IS STILL
VALID.
> > 2. I do not care how Growl got onto my computer - I simply don't want
> > it.
>
> Understood. This sucks for you and us.
> > 3. I do not want it on my computer AND it has asked me 2x a day (via
> > a POP-UP!) for the last week to update itself. (Which is ironic since,
> > apparently, your company is supposed to give you "complete control
> > over which notifications are shown" - never mind the fact that you
> > can't control the fact that you'll get pop-up update notices 2x a
> > day!)
>
> How else is Growl supposed to notify users that there is an update? Serious question, I'd like to improve things.
USE POP-UPS FOR UPDATES AND IF ANY OF THEM DID USE POP-UPS I WOULD
SERIOUSLY CONSIDER TRYING TO FIND ANOTHER PROGRAM. ACTUALLY, NOW THAT
I THINK OF IT, I PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE SO IRRITABLE ABOUT POP-UPS FROM
A PROGRAM I CARED ABOUT/NEEDED/USED, BUT TO GET THEM 2X A DAY FROM A
PROGRAM I DON'T WANT JUST PUT ME OVER THE EDGE. I DO UNDERSTAND YOUR
DILEMMA AND WILL NOODLE ON A BETTER SOLUTION FOR YOU AND SEE WHAT I
CAN COME UP WITH.
> > 4. I thought I had uninstalled it.
>
> What did you do that you thought you had uninstalled it?
UNWANTED FILES OFF YOUR MAC TO FREE UP SPACE.
> > 5. After I thought I'd uninstalled it, I'm STILL getting pop-up
> > update requests (for a program that I don't want anyway).
>
> Probably due to the dropbox reinstalling it problem.
(AT LEAST, ISN'T SHOWING UP IN A SEARCH)
> > 6. Now, instead of working, I'm sitting here trying to figure out how
> > to get rid of these irritating pop-up adds and am being told I have to
> > download ANOTHER something from you (a company I never wanted to
> > download something from in the first place) so that I can officially
> > uninstall the program.
>
> Growl isn't advertisement.
>
> I highly doubt you downloaded Growl from us directly in the first place.
UNINSTALL.
> > 7. In order to figure this all out, I had to subscribe to this google
> > discussion. (For the record, while I appreciate that you responded to
> > me shortly, I would rather NOT be forced to join a google discussion
> > just to take an aggravating and uninvited program off my computer.)
>
> I appreciate not having to skim every single email and then approve it. You don't understand, at one point I was manually deleting 2000 emails a week for spam going to the old list. I'm sorry you feel this way, but we're not removing this requirement. Especially since the solution to your problem is blatant on our main page.
THE SOLUTION TO MY PROBLEM WAS NOT BLATANT. I COULD NOT FOLLOW THE
"BLATANT" INSTRUCTIONS ON YOUR PAGE BECAUSE I, THEORETICALLY, NO
LONGER HAD YOUR PROGRAM ON MY COMPUTER, SO I COULD NOT CLICK ON
UNINSTALL BECAUSE GROWL DID NOT SHOW UP IN MY SYSTEM PREFERENCES ANY
LONGER.
> > 7. When I ask for clarification on your response (gee- I'm sorry I'm
> > not on the up & up with all the most obvious computer terminology),
> > you come back at me with attitude.
>
> You came off as being a twat. I've had a bad day, having sat at DPS for four hours to remove one thing from my license. My apologies for coming across as an ass.
really RECONSIDER USING - IT'S so RUDE) BECAUSE I AM QUITE IRRITATED
BY THIS. EVERYONE HAS BAD DAYS AND I APPRECIATE YOUR APOLOGIES.
PLEASE, IN THE FUTURE, REMEMBER THAT THE WORLD IT NOT OUT TO GET YOU -
IT'S JUST THAT NOBODY LIKES POP-UPS INTERRUPTING THEM WHILE THEY
WORK... ESPECIALLY FOR A PROGRAM THEY NEVER WILLINGLY INSTALLED IN THE
FIRST PLACE.
> > I just want this vexing program off my computer.
>
> Understood. I want to make things better for people in your situation. Follow what Evan just sent and let's see what we can do to improve things.
>
I HOPE YOUR DAY IMPROVES AS MUCH AS I HOPE I NEVER HAVE ANOTHER POP-UP
FROM GROWL ON MY COMPUTER AGAIN.
Kristen
Thank you for listening and taking me seriously.
Yes, having to do a google search for terminology is very irritating.
Though I did not know what a "disk image" is, I am able to code in
html, have built flash websites, and am, in general a decently
educated computer user. So, if I am having trouble, I shutter to
think what my mother (or any of the other basic computer users out
there) would do if faced with the exasperating growl pop-ups. She
would have NO idea what to do. If you REALLY want to help people -
make it as easy as possible. Make "uninstall growl" one of the
download options. Put the uninstaller download at the top of this
page (http://growl.info/thirdpartyinstallations.php). I think my mom
would be able to figure that out... assuming she'd think to go to your
website. If you really REALLY wanted to help people, you'd have the
"uninstall growl" option on your actual pop-up (like the unsubscribe
things at the bottom of mass emails).
I just thought of an answer to Chris' question about how to alert
people about updates. My suggestion would be to have, on the first
pop up, an option of customizing growl's notification. You could give
people the following options:
1. Notify me every time growl has an available update
2. Notify me of the most recent update once a week
3. Notify me of the most recent update once a month
4. Notify me of the most recent update every 3 months
5. Do not ever notify me - I will take responsibility for updating
myself
6. Uninstall Growl from my computer.
If I'd have seen something like the above, I'd never have had to spend
all this time and Chris would never have gotten an email from me that
"came off as being a twat". (For the record - speaking of wikipedia,
I suggest Chris looks up "twat" and then decide if it's really an
appropriate word to be using.)
Finally, as I told Chris, I do not use dropbox or zumo. I do have
many of the Adobe programs, but they're all several years old and were
not purchased as a suite. I have looked at (and drooled over) the
most current Creative Suite, but not downloaded anything from them.
So, I do believe you may have another rouge bundler out there.
-k
Evan Schoenberg, M.D.
Thank you for listening and taking me seriously.
Yes, having to do a google search for terminology is very irritating.
Though I did not know what a "disk image" is, I am able to code in
html, have built flash websites, and am, in general a decently
educated computer user. So, if I am having trouble, I shutter to
think what my mother (or any of the other basic computer users out
there) would do if faced with the exasperating growl pop-ups. She
would have NO idea what to do. If you REALLY want to help people -
make it as easy as possible. Make "uninstall growl" one of the
download options. Put the uninstaller download at the top of this
page (http://growl.info/thirdpartyinstallations.php). I think my mom
would be able to figure that out... assuming she'd think to go to your
website.
If you really REALLY wanted to help people, you'd have the
"uninstall growl" option on your actual pop-up (like the unsubscribe
things at the bottom of mass emails).
I just thought of an answer to Chris' question about how to alert
people about updates. My suggestion would be to have, on the first
pop up, an option of customizing growl's notification. You could give
people the following options:
1. Notify me every time growl has an available update
2. Notify me of the most recent update once a week
3. Notify me of the most recent update once a month
4. Notify me of the most recent update every 3 months
5. Do not ever notify me - I will take responsibility for updating
myself
6. Uninstall Growl from my computer.
If I'd have seen something like the above, I'd never have had to spend
all this time and Chris would never have gotten an email from me that
"came off as being a twat".
Finally, as I told Chris, I do not use dropbox or zumo. I do have
many of the Adobe programs, but they're all several years old and were
not purchased as a suite. I have looked at (and drooled over) the
most current Creative Suite, but not downloaded anything from them.
So, I do believe you may have another rouge bundler out there.
Chris Forsythe
On Oct 1, 2010, at 5:26 PM, Kristen wrote:Thank you for listening and taking me seriously.
Yes, having to do a google search for terminology is very irritating.
Though I did not know what a "disk image" is, I am able to code in
html, have built flash websites, and am, in general a decently
educated computer user. So, if I am having trouble, I shutter to
think what my mother (or any of the other basic computer users out
there) would do if faced with the exasperating growl pop-ups. She
would have NO idea what to do. If you REALLY want to help people -
make it as easy as possible. Make "uninstall growl" one of the
download options. Put the uninstaller download at the top of this
page (http://growl.info/thirdpartyinstallations.php). I think my mom
would be able to figure that out... assuming she'd think to go to your
website.My planned changes to the thirdpartyinstallations page are to do pretty much this:- Move the uninstallation instructions to the top. Something along the lines of:"You're here because Growl was installed without your permission. We're as upset about that as you are. Read on to learn more about what happened and who is most likely responsible, but first, here are the step-by-step uninstallation instructions."- Change the uninstallation download link to be to the uninstallation script, directly, with no other download required and no intermediate step (besides decompression of the downloaded script, which generally will happen automatically).
Peter Hosey
> I have read the page with the big bold red letters, but it instructs
> me to remove Growl from within the program.
No, it doesn't. It tells you to uncheck the box in Dropbox that causes Dropbox to reinstall Growl, and then to download the Growl disk image and run that.
I see that we have another page (not the one linked from the big red text) with a video suggesting that you uninstall from System Preferences. I'm going to go remove that video from that page, as well as the manual uninstallation instructions at the bottom of that page, because the correct way to uninstall is with the uninstall script.
Peter Hosey
> responses in Caps (I'm not yelling at you - just trying to make it
> easy to read)
They would be easier to read if not in caps.
Peter Hosey
> You could give
> people the following options:
> 1. Notify me every time growl has an available update
> 2. Notify me of the most recent update once a week
> 3. Notify me of the most recent update once a month
> 4. Notify me of the most recent update every 3 months
> 5. Do not ever notify me - I will take responsibility for updating
> myself
> 6. Uninstall Growl from my computer.
For people who don't want Growl, #6 is the only correct option. For people who do want Growl, we'd be better off picking one of the above and sticking with it.
The current check is once a day. This is quite common and I don't think it's excessive, and I think the majority of those who'd disagree with me are the people who don't want Growl in the first place. It'll remain possible to put off the decision if you don't want to update right then.
> So, I do believe you may have another rouge bundler out there.
Well, maybe. I hope not.
Prior to all these application developers deciding it was OK to install things without the user's permission, the most common way Growl got installed without permission was that the user gave permission by accident. They'd launch an app like Adium (which includes our official installer framework) for the first or second time and get the “Do you want to install Growl?” prompt, and they'd simply click OK without reading it, or maybe hit return or enter by accident, or be away from their computer and somebody else “helpfully” hits OK for them.
Could that be what happened to you? (Note that Adium is not the only app that uses our installer framework; there are a few others.)
Peter Hosey
> I added these changes. It probably needs cleanup, but this is just meant to get us started.
I removed the uninstallation instructions you added and moved the existing ones up top (and changed the one item to link to the new uninstaller archive). The most important part that the new instructions were missing was the disable-Growl-in-Dropbox step.
Kristen
you couldn't read them - I was trying to be courteous, not a "twat")
you'd have seen that I don't use dropbox and don't have it on my
computer which is why I was referring to your secondary mode of
removing the program (from within system preferences). Nor do I have
the app Adium. Want to guess again how your program ended up on my
computer? I'm as frustrated as you apparently are.
Kristen
I don't think just moving the text around on the page is really going
to help. I suggest, since you already have big red text on the page,
putting a big red "uninstall growl by clicking here" thing at the top
of this page http://growl.info/thirdpartyinstallations.php AND making
the uninstall script one of the download options on your home page.
I completely understand that I was in a fraction of a fraction of
percent of people who had (1) received growl in an unauthorized
fashion and (2) already deleted the program and therefore could not
follow your uninstall instructions. Still, if I did it this way,
others have done it too. Your page, as it existed before AND how it
exists now is not helpful to people like me who thought "what is this
stupid growl pop-up thing?" and did a search for growl on their
computer and deleted everything they could find. You see what I mean?
I also didn't see the suggested uninstallation script unbundled from
the downloads page. You have to understand - for a person like me who
didn't ask for growl to be on my computer AND didn't/doesn't use any
of the confirmed 3rd party installers to be asked to actually INSTALL
growl just so I can UNINSTALL it raises many red flags. At the same
time, getting several pop-up flags a day can only be ignored for so
long before it becomes paramount to stop them (I lasted about 6 days
before I hit the wall today). SO, if you want walk the walk of "We're
as upset about that as you are" you really need to make it a one click
to make this program go away from my computer. Yes, if I had not
deleted the program (and yes, I understand now that deleting and
uninstalling are different things) I would have been able to follow
your uninstall instructions, but like I said, if I did it, others are
doing it too.
Now, Chris, have you looked at wikipedia for the definition of
"twat"? Since I learned today what a "disk image" is, more than I
ever wanted to learn about the inner workings of Growl, AND was hit
over the head with the "deleting and uninstalling are not equal" idea,
can you please learn that using the term "twat" is offensive,
disrespectful, and wholly inappropriate?
-k
Kristen
use dropbox" on this page (http://growl.info/
thirdpartyinstallations.php) contains a link to the uninstall script.
That should be more clear. I do not have/use dropbox so I disregarded
that section assuming it did not apply to me. Why not have a big red
thing at the top of that page "if you do not want growl on your
computer, click HERE to uninstall it? THEN have the stuff about if
you use dropbox, you may have to take these further steps to keep
growl from returning to your computer.......
Peter Hosey
> Why not have a big red thing at the top of that page "if you do not want growl on your computer, click HERE to uninstall it? THEN have the stuff about if you use dropbox, you may have to take these further steps to keep growl from returning to your computer.......
Same reason: Most people will not read past the first step, then will get pissed when Dropbox reinstalls it. We have had this happen multiple times, which is why the “turn off Dropbox's Growl support” step is first.
I'll see about clarifying the instructions for those who don't use Dropbox.
Peter Hosey
> … to be asked to actually INSTALL growl just so I can UNINSTALL it raises many red flags.
What page do we have that asks you to install it?
The “third party installations” page told you to download the disk image because it contains the uninstaller. You do not need to use the same disk image to install Growl.
Hopefully, the revised instructions that link to a separate uninstaller archive will avert this confusion in the future.
> Yes, if I had not deleted the program (and yes, I understand now that deleting and uninstalling are different things) …
The main difference is that it is possible for a process to continue running after the file it was launched from is deleted, so if MacKeeper only deletes the Growl prefpane and its contents, and doesn't kill the Growl background process, and you don't shut down or restart before the time of the next update check, the background process will still perform the update check even though Growl is now missing from the system. That's my best guess as to how that happened for you (since you don't use Dropbox).
The solution is to stop Growl, then delete it. That's what our uninstaller does.
(Killing Growl from the Activity Monitor, before or after, would also work. As long as Growl is both not running and not present in either of the PreferencePanes folders, it is not installed.)
> … I would have been able to follow your uninstall instructions…
I've simplified those instructions to remove the video, leaving only the uninstaller-based procedure.
Running the Growl Uninstaller *will* stop Growl and delete the Growl program (the prefpane and everything inside it).
I also added a section to the page about third-party uninstallers, warning against using them.
Dan
>"You're here because Growl was installed without your permission.
>We're as upset about that as you are. Read on to learn more about
>what happened and who is most likely responsible, but first, here
>are the step-by-step uninstallation instructions."
I wonder how many of these upset users would love to have Growl if
they understood it more? Gotta be a way to deflect the knee-jerk
uninstall reaction long enough to show them the light...
- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.
Peter Hosey
> I wonder how many of these upset users would love to have Growl if they understood it more? Gotta be a way to deflect the knee-jerk uninstall reaction long enough to show them the light...
I don't think so. Any attempt to redirect uninstallation attempts into “wouldn't you just love Growl?” would come off as attempts to retain the user as a customer and prevent them from uninstalling. I know that's not what you meant, and it's not how we'd mean it, but that's how users would see it.
There is nothing for any user who's had this happen but to help them get and keep Growl off their system as efficiently as possible.
Chris Forsythe
I agree. These users are getting frustrated as it is. This is certainly a way to gain more users, but it's not the right way.
You bring up a good point. Maybe there is a way to educate these people that Growl isn't spyware out to get them? The about page is not adequate for this.
Also, I think we could keep a list of the threads we've had on this linked on that page. Would that help people? Just an idea to keep people from having to search.
Chris
Peter Hosey
> Also, I think we could keep a list of the threads we've had on this linked on that page.
That reminds me: Last night (around midnight PDT), I added big red text to the discuss group page as well. Hopefully anyone who arrives there by a route that doesn't go through our front page will see that.