Should I take my website somewhere else? - blocked in China

[WallyDD]

Hello,

My website (on google app engine) is blocked in China where I used to
get a lot of traffic from. I only just realised this from looking at
the logs and noting that traffic from china has crawled to standstill.
I imagine my website is blocked in other countries as well thanks to
this blocking technique.

Does Google have a plan for dealing with this?

Any chance of a response from someone at google? I would really like
to know if this is being dealt with seriously?

This doesn't just apply to my website, it applies to every site on
google app engine.

[WallyDD]

Blocked in Iran as well.

[WallyDD]

List of countries where any website hosted on google app engine is not
accessible;
China
Iran
Sudan
Syria
Indonesia is blocked by most providers
Cuba

On Apr 2, 10:48 am, WallyDD <shaneb...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Barry Hunter]

And why is this Google's problem?

Presumably you are a victim of those countries over-zealous blocking
(presuming you don't think your site is getting blocked itself)

Any shared hosting will suffer this 'bad neighbour' issue, AppEngine
happens to be a rather large hosting provider, so its quite likely.

They could make the problem less likely to occur by using larger pool
of IP addresses, and hashing the domain to specific IPs, as I imagine
it would be impractical to offer unique IPs, but there is little
incentive to do so (IMHO)

You might get slightly better results using a custom domain if you
don't already.

--
Barry

- www.nearby.org.uk - www.geograph.org.uk -

[Ezu]

>
> You might get slightly better results using a custom domain if you
> don't already.
>

True but a custom domain have to point to ghs.google.com to be
assigned to appengine. It seems that exactly that domain is blocked.

Martino Sabia

[Barry Hunter]

ah, ok if ghs IPs are blocked then try .appspot.com ;)


> Martino Sabia

[WallyDD]

I have custom domain. I have never had anything blocked in many years
before migrating to google app engine.

The 'bad neighbour' issue has never been a problem for me in the past.

On Apr 2, 11:18 am, Barry Hunter <barrybhun...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> And why is this Google's problem?
>
> Presumably you are a victim of those countries over-zealous blocking
> (presuming you don't think your site is getting blocked itself)
>
> Any shared hosting will suffer this 'bad neighbour' issue, AppEngine
> happens to be a rather large hosting provider, so its quite likely.
>
> They could make the problem less likely to occur by using larger pool
> of IP addresses, and hashing the domain to specific IPs, as I imagine
> it would be impractical to offer unique IPs, but there is little
> incentive to do so (IMHO)
>
> You might get slightly better results using a custom domain if you
> don't already.
>

[Barry Hunter]

On 02/04/2009, WallyDD <shan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> I have custom domain. I have never had anything blocked in many years
> before migrating to google app engine.
>
> The 'bad neighbour' issue has never been a problem for me in the past.

What do you want, a medal?

really that was just blind luck. (or maybe you weren't on a shared
system, or a highly segregated system, far removed from your
neighbours, either way just lucky)

I still contend this isn't Google's problem, take up your grivence
with the maintainers of the firewalls.

[WallyDD]

Barry,

The issue is with the way google deals with dns.
The issue is very much googles as it means a lot of people will not be
able to develop on Google app engine. Most larger websites have no
choice but to steer clear of Google application engine.

I would love to take the issue up with the maintainers of these
firewalls. Please would you be so kind as to provide me with their
contact information?

[Gopal Patel]

lol,

I think , people should see this as a opportunity to start a new app
engine like service providing company in those country. I like how
this countries show their
love toward young entrepreneur of their countries... ( ...no pun
intended....http://xkcd.com/559/ )

[Joe Bowman]

Most shared hosting providers don't have the customer base Google
already has, because they don't offer those services for free. Also,
because you haven't run into the 'bad neighbor' issue doesn't mean
it's not common. It really depends on what service providers you were
using.

It's not really a DNS issue by google. Static IP's are expensive and
if you haven't been keeping up with the IPv4 dilemma that's been going
on for the past few years, we're almost out of IPv4 address worldwide,
let alone Google being able to give each app it's own IP for free
(which is basically what you're asking for).

This really is an issue where if you have requirements of a dedicated
IP for your application, then yes, I imagine you do want to go with a
different hosting provider who is willing to provide (and charge you
for) that.

[Andy]

Why shouldn't this be google's problem?

Google's hosting platform is being blocked by the country with the
largest internet population in the world. You think that's not a major
problem?

I've used plenty of hosting sites that are perfectly accessible from
China. So obviously this is a problem for Google.

On Apr 2, 11:18 am, Barry Hunter <barrybhun...@googlemail.com> wrote:

[Andy]

And what do you want, a prescription for prozac?

You have nothing of value to contribute except badgering the people
who brought the problem to light.

On Apr 2, 1:49 pm, Barry Hunter <barrybhun...@googlemail.com> wrote:

[Andy Freeman]

> Why shouldn't this be google's problem?

Suppose that I sold raincoats and you wanted to buy one of my
raincoats. If someone else got between us and stopped me from
delivering raincoats to you, who would you hold responsible?

Google isn't doing the blocking.

Yes, Google may be able to make more money if it can get around the
blocking, but that doesn't change the fact that the blocks are not
under Google's control.

In other words, blocking may be a problem, that is an issue, for
Google, but it isn't Google's problem, that is, something that Google
has some obligation to do act upon.

> > And why is this Google's problem?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Joe Bowman]

China and the other countries block content that they deem
unacceptable for their citizens. In order to get appengine off the
blacklist, they would have to disallow people to create applications
which would be deemed offensive to those countries.

First, looking at it from the pure technical/business view, this would
require that applications no longer post immediately, and be under
review at each update at a minimum. This would potentially decrease
the amount of applications served (thus decreasing revenue) while
increasing costs to support the system.

From the political/moral view, Google has been a staunch supporter of
rights to speech, and it wasn't that long ago that they were chastised
for bending their own rules to support China at all by allowing the
filtering of search results. Further expansion of their products
having such filtering imposed by them would lead to more reputation
damage. Reputation damage also costs money.

So really, from two different perspectives, there's no business sense
in worrying about if appengine applications are being firewalled by 6
out of the 150+ countries that exist in the world. As a customer you
have every right to take your business elsewhere, and if making you
application available in those 6 countries is of the importance that
you need to, I encourage you to do so. Not every web application is
going to be appropriate for appengine.

There's 6 countries that support appengine, and can only write
programs in python. Which is really the limiting factor of the
application environment?

[WallyDD]

Paying extra money for a static IP address is something that I would
happily cough up money for. Could Google create the functionality?

I am no expert on Firewalls and security but is this same type of
blocking done with some corporate firewalls? I was under the
impression that these countries buy their firewalls from the same
companies which outfit corporate america.

It is unfortunate that some politicians/employers choose to block
their citizens/employees from viewing certain websites. Denying access
to a whole portion of the web to people simply because of some poorly
implemented IT policy is something that Google needs to deal with.

How much adense revenue is google losing from this per year? = A
How much would it cost to fix (or workaround) the problem? = B

If A times 10 > B then fix it.

Any chance of a response from Google?

[buck]

I am in China and I can access most of apps on GAE.

[Will]

Can your site be accessed via yourapp.appspot.com?

[Andy]

Just because Google isn't doing the blocking doesn't mean it's not
Google's problem.

Using your (lack of) logic, if GAE is down because someone's attacking
it using DOS, does that mean it's also not Google's problem because
"google isn't doing the attacking"?

[Andy]

No one is interested in hearing your "political/moral" preaching.

This is a forum for people to share information on GAE and solve
problems. If you have anything of value to add to the discussion, feel
free to add your bits. If not, you won't be missed.

So you "encourage me to take my business elsewhere"?

Who are you - are you the spokesperson of Google? Is that the Google
official position on this matter?

Or was that just another failed attempt of you at self-aggrandizement?

On Apr 2, 7:53 pm, Joe Bowman <bowman.jos...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Andy Freeman]

> > If A times 10 > B then fix it.

You're assuming that google can "fix it". Since google isn't doing
the blocking, this is an interesting assumption.

> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Andy Freeman]

Google can control access to its resources and has contracts with the
folks who ship bits to google.

Google has no control over the "great firewall".

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Andy Freeman]

> This is a forum for people to share information on GAE and solve
problems.

Pot, kettle and all that unless you know how Google can subvert the
"great firewall".

> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Andy]

I want to to hear from Google whether it has done anything to solve
this problem or whether it has any plan to do so.

I don't want to hear pompous speech from a self-appointed non-google
spokesperson on his "political/moral" drivels and that he "encourage
me to take my business elsewhere".

So no, there's no pot and kettle here at all.

And no, there's no need for google to "subvert the great firewall" in
order to solve this problem. Google could talk to the authorities in
China to see what can be done to get unblocked. It could give App
Engine users the option to move their sites to google's data centers
in China. It could start selling static IP hosting. Plenty of
solutions - just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they
don't exist.

[Andy Freeman]

> So no, there's no pot and kettle here at all.

Sure there is - unless you know how to fix the problem. (Surely
you're not going to argue that you're reporting an unknown problem.)
After all, you complained about someone else's posting with "This is a

forum for people to share information on GAE and solve problems."

Throughout this, you've acted like Google has some obligation to make
GAE applications visible in China. It doesn't.

> And no, there's no need for google to "subvert the great firewall" in
> order to solve this problem.

That's assuming that the Chinese want appengine apps to get through.
Since they're blocking, I'm pretty sure that they want to block at
least some app engine apps and are willing to block them all to block
the ones that they don't want.

> Google could talk to the authorities in
> China to see what can be done to get unblocked.

What are the odds that they haven't tried that?

> It could give App Engine users the option to move their sites to google's data centers
> in China.

SInce China is blocking app engine because it doesn't like certain app
engine apps and those apps are the most likely to want to want to use
such an option ....

> Plenty of solutions - just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they
> don't exist.

Actually, I do know about those and lots of other bandaids. However,
I also know how they all fail.

The fix to the problem is China. If you're not working on that,
you're just flapping your gums.

[WallyDD]

So fixing China is the problem?
Please can we take this aggression out of the discussion?

This is a technical group, not somewhere for country bashing. There
are plenty of other places you can have a political argument, this is
not the place.

[WallyDD]

Please try to be respectful.
http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine/web/google-app-engine-discussion-group-charter

[Joe Bowman]

My "take you business elsewhere" was offered a suggestion of how to
work around the fact that applications on GAE are being blocked by
national firewalls. Nothing more, nothing less. I also did not do any
moral/political preaching, if you read my response, I broke it down
into dollars and cents, the moral/political reasons are the reasons it
doesn't make sense when dollars come into play.

To reiterate:

- In order for the national firewalls to not block appengine, Google
would have to enforce application rules that comply with those
firewalls. Meaning, they'd have to allow less applications, as spend
the money and invest in the manpower and application approval
workflows to support such restrictions. And, the political reputation
damage would be enough to drive even more people away from their
product.

In the end, it's not about politics or morals, it's about money, which
is what corporations the size of Google are always about. They
wouldn't be where they are today, in such a short time, if they
weren't.

The ability to purchase a static IP is a nice thought, but the costs
associated with the setup of that which would need to be passed on to
the user may be more than you're willing to pay. Something to think
about. It's a cloud based infrastructure with deployments worldwide,
setting up individual static IP's is a task a lot larger than what
you're dedicated/vps service offerings have to deal with. I'd suggest
you file a feature request, which is a lot more likely to get noticed
than any reply in this thread.

[Maria]

Is there any google staff who is responsible for GAE promotion and
technology to say something here?

How can I access to my Google Apps via my own domain directly, e.g.
how can access via mail.my_domain.com instead of mail.google.com/a/
my_domain.com?

Is it really because of blocking of ghs.google.com here in China?

[Andy Freeman]

> > So fixing China is the problem?

No. The problem is the blocking that China does. Fixing China
(changing actually) is the solution.

> Please can we take this aggression out of the discussion?

That's not aggression. It's merely pointing out who can do what.

> This is a technical group, not somewhere for country bashing.

I agree, but then I'm not country bashing. In fact, I haven't
commented at all about China's policies. Specifically, I haven't said
anything about whether China is wrong to block app engine or that it
is wrong to block certain applications.

I'm only saying that folks who disagree with what China is doing
should direct their efforts at China.

> > you're just flapping your gums.- Hide quoted text -

[Brett Slatkin]

> Is there any google staff who is responsible for GAE promotion and
> technology to say something here?
>
> How can I access to my Google Apps via my own domain directly, e.g.
> how can access via mail.my_domain.com instead of mail.google.com/a/
> my_domain.com?

One way to address this is to run a proxy server elsewhere, which will
allow your site to have it's own unique IP, rather than the shared IPs
of Google.

-Brett
App Engine Team

[Andy]

> Sure there is - unless you know how to fix the problem.  (Surely
> you're not going to argue that you're reporting an unknown problem.)
> After all, you complained about someone else's posting with "This is a
> forum for people to share information on GAE and solve problems."

Indeed this is a forum for "people to share information on GAE and
solve problems." The original poster reported a problem. You have
nothing of value to contribute to the discussion except to badger the
people who reported this problem. Therefore I ask you to either
contribute or shut up.

Just like if someone started shouting in a library I'd also ask him to
cut it out. So in your world that's also "pot and kettle" huh?

> Throughout this, you've acted like Google has some obligation to make
> GAE applications visible in China.  It doesn't.

And who are you to say it doesn't?
I want to hear from a Google employee on their position on this. I'm
not interested in your misguided opinion on what Google might or might
not consider is their responsibility or your "political/moral" drivel.

> That's assuming that the Chinese want appengine apps to get through.
> Since they're blocking, I'm pretty sure that they want to block at
> least some app engine apps and are willing to block them all to block
> the ones that they don't want.

> What are the odds that they haven't tried that?

Much higher than the odds that you actually know what you're talking
about.

> SInce China is blocking app engine because it doesn't like certain app
> engine apps and those apps are the most likely to want to want to use
> such an option ....

Who are you to say which apps are "most likely to want to use such an
option"?

I want the option to host my app in Google's China data center and my
app would have no problem getting approval.

> Actually, I do know about those and lots of other bandaids.  However,
> I also know how they all fail.

You "know" they all fail? How? Have you actually tried the solutions?

Oh wait you couldn't have actually tried them because you don't even
work for google. You're just another Internet riffraff out to make a
fool of himself and waste everyone else's time.

[WallyDD]

Sounds like this might be something of a temporary workaround.
Does anyone have a link to an article or something to get me started
with this?

In the longer term Google has no choice but to deal with this issue.
Not a single airline, bank, car company or any company that does
business in any of the blocked countries is going to be able to use
GAE with the current set up. Something has got to give and I can't see
many people/companies becoming willing pawns with their websites.

[Andy]

> And, the political reputation
> damage would be enough to drive even more people away from their
> product.
>

Google already set up their China search site google.cn that received
approval from the Chinese government.

Did you see any resulting "political reputation damage" that "drive
even more people away from their product"?

Last I checked Google got more and more dominant in search every
month, so obviously nobody cared that Google worked with the Chinese
government on their search engine. Doing the same thing with App
Engine wouldn't be any different. Hence your "political reputation"
argument is specious.

[Andy Freeman]

> You have
> nothing of value to contribute to the discussion except to badger the
> people who reported this problem.

On the contrary. I've pointed out how to actually solve the problem.

> > Throughout this, you've acted like Google has some obligation to make
> > GAE applications visible in China. It doesn't.
>
> And who are you to say it doesn't?

I'm someone who understands that obligations come from laws and
contracts. Feel free to point to the relevant chapter and verse that
obligates Google to make GAE applications visible in China. If
there's no such law or contract, what is the basis of the obligation
that you think exists? (Yes, you're free to not use GAE if Google
can't solve the "China access" problem, but your freedom to go
elsewhere doesn't obligate Google. After all, you're free to not use
GAE for any reason, such as not painting their buildings pink, yet no
one thinks that Google is obligated to paint its buildings pink.)

Google may choose to try to make GAE applications visible in China.
(I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that
they're doing what's reasonable. Feel free to provide evidence to the
contrary. And no, failing isn't evidence that they're not doing what
they can.) Google may also suggest work-arounds.

However, absent a contract and/or a law, Google isn't obligated to

make GAE applications visible in China.

> I want the option to host my app in Google's China data center

Good for you. And Google may, or may not, offer such an option. Note
"may not" - they're under no obligation to do so. (I don't presume to
know the risks and costs of offering such an option. After all, China
can block at the edge of the data centers, impose conditions, or even
shut them down.)

> > Actually, I do know about those and lots of other bandaids. However,
> > I also know how they all fail.
>
> You "know" they all fail? How?

Reread what I actually wrote. I know HOW they all fail, that is, what
the Chinese have done to thwart such bandaids in the past. This isn't
the first time that China has blocked stuff, so we can look at what
they've done before and see some of what they can and will do. (I
don't assume that they're unwilling/unable to do things that they
haven't done before.) While it's possible that this time they won't
use techniques that have worked before, I wouldn't bet that they
won't. Of course, you're free to act as if they won't.

[Andy]

> I'm someone who understands that obligations come from laws and
> contracts.  Feel free to point to the relevant chapter and verse that
>

> However, absent a contract and/or a law, Google isn't obligated to
> make GAE applications visible in China.

Feel free to hair-split the word "obligation".

Does Google have the legal obligation to solve this problem? No. Just
like Google doesn't have any legal obligation to improve this service
or add any new features. Does that mean users should stop posting any
thread that's about improving GAE?

Does that mean you're going to start polluting every single thread in
this forum by posting your 'Google has no legal obligation to do this"
drivel?

> Good for you.  And Google may, or may not, offer such an option.  Note
> "may not" - they're under no obligation to do so.  (I don't presume to
> know the risks and costs of offering such an option.  After all, China
> can block at the edge of the data centers, impose conditions, or even
> shut them down.)

Another zero-value drivel.

Yes Google may or may not offer that solution, just like they may or
may not offer any solution to any other problems raised in this forum

That's why I want to hear from a Google representative on their plan.
Your speculation on what Google may or may not do is just that,
worthless speculation that serves no purpose in this discussion.

You're right to not "presume to know" though, seeing how you don't
know anything in this matter.

Now just accept that fact and act accordingly.

[秦锋]

appspot.com is accessiable in China now, and I found appspot.com has a
china specific host?

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\fqin>ping cndata4u.appspot.com

Pinging appspot-china.l.google.com [72.14.235.141] with 32 bytes of
data:

Reply from 72.14.235.141: bytes=32 time=59ms TTL=240
Reply from 72.14.235.141: bytes=32 time=61ms TTL=240
Reply from 72.14.235.141: bytes=32 time=72ms TTL=240
Reply from 72.14.235.141: bytes=32 time=61ms TTL=240

Ping statistics for 72.14.235.141:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 59ms, Maximum = 72ms, Average = 63ms

And customize domain doesn't work yet.

[Andy Freeman]

> Feel free to hair-split the word "obligation".

It's the plain meaning of the word. I apologise for not knowing that
you didn't know what it meant when you wrote that Google had an
obligation to make GAE available in China. Are there other statements
that you made without understanding their meaning?

China availability issue is one of the few issues where folks claim
that/act like Google has an obligation even though it's an issue where
Google has very little capability to change things.

> That's why I want to hear from a Google representative on their plan.

I predict that if Google says anything, it will be roughly equivalent
to "we're doing what we can". At that point, you'll have to decide if
the results, which will vary with the whim of the Chinese govt, are
adequate for your purposes.

Of course, if you're better at dealing with the Chinese govt than
Google is....

> Now just accept that fact and act accordingly.

And the basis for this order is...

[WallyDD]

Google is more or less obligated to solve this issue.

No company is willing to be a pawn in the game of politics between
Google and China.
Name a single company (that has any international presence) who would
be willing to use GAE knowing full well that it is blocked in its
current form?
This issue has nothing to do with the Chinese government and there is
no way Google will point the finger at them.

Perhaps google can also take on all the other countries that are
blocking GAE and while they are at it they can point fingers at
corporate america and their firewalls?
You have to remember that at the moment this is a "preview release".

I don't really understand why you persist with this argument. You have
raised some valid points which should be looked at and considered in
the scheme of things but most of the diatribe you present here seems
aimed at China/Chinese Government. I have always found prejudices
cloud peoples judgement.

To sumarise how this problem will probably be viewed;
Google created a dns based system (for GAE addressing) which puts
everything though ghs.google.com. This system works really well and
from my experience it was very clever and efficient. However it has an
issue with firewalls that got overlooked. Google has just recently
been made aware of this problem.

[Andy Freeman]

> This issue has nothing to do with the Chinese government and there is
> no way Google will point the finger at them.

If the Chinese govt is doing the blocking, how can the blocking have
nothing to do with the Chinese govt?

> most of the diatribe you present here seems
> aimed at China/Chinese Government.

The following assumes that WallyDD is using the standard definition of
"diatribe", namely, "a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack,
or criticism". http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Diatribe

I note that WallyDD doesn't quote any such "diatribe". I'll point out
why - I haven't written any.

As I wrote before, the only thing that I've written about the Chinese
govt's blocking is that folks who object to said blocking should
address their concerns to the Chinese govt. That's not a diatribe
aimed at China or the Chinese govt.

I do assume that the Chinese govt implements its policies with a
reasonable amount of technical competence and that blocking is part of
said implementation. That assumption is not a "diatribe" aimed at
China or its govt.

Perhaps WallyDD will provide an example of said "diatribe" or the
meaning of the word that he's using such that my actual statements
qualify.

> > > Now just accept that fact and act accordingly.- Hide quoted text -

[Joe Bowman]

Plenty of companies would be willing to deal with not being able to
support customers in China. Either for reasons of they only support
selling products within in their own countries, to, startups that will
move off of appengine if the need and funding arises to allow them
move off of appengine to support Chinese customers.

So far, I've only seen two people complaining about the Chinese
firewall and appengine, and a couple others voicing their opinion on
it not being Google's obligation to support it. So really, when you
count how many members this group has, I'd venture a guess that most
just don't care either way. So maybe we're all wasting our time. If
Google was going to respond, they'd have done it days ago.

I'd say do as they ask, file an issue, and move on.

[Andy Freeman]

> No company is willing to be a pawn in the game of politics between
> Google and China.

That sounds reasonable, but what can Google do to stop the Chinese
govt from blocking?

(1) Google can't tell the Chinese govt what to do.

(2) The Chinese govt appears to be technically competent and controls
the relevant connections, both from the outside and from internal
datacenters.

(3) Google can propose agreements, but China is a soverign entity and
and can do what it pleases wrt internal matters. (Other posters have
suggested that buying dinner for the appropriate official would cause
the blocking to go away. I don't see why the Chinese govt would find
such an agreement binding.)

Yes, one can argue that Google "needs" the Chinese govt to not block,
but that doesn't imply that Google can do anything to stop the Chinese
govt from blocking. Google's needs do not obligate the Chinese govt.

> > > Now just accept that fact and act accordingly.- Hide quoted text -

[Andy]

> It's the plain meaning of the word. I apologise for not knowing that
> you didn't know what it meant when you wrote that Google had an
> obligation to make GAE available in China. Are there other statements
> that you made without understanding their meaning?

If you think "obligation" only refers to "legal obligation", you are,
as usual, very mistaken.

From the dictionary:
Obligation:
A social, legal, or moral requirement

Do you see the words "social" and "moral" in addition to "legal" in
the definition for "obligation"? Do you even understand what those
words mean? Feel free to look them up. I have an obligation to provide
the best service to my clients. Does that mean I'm legally required to
do that? Of course not. But is it still an obligation? Absolutely. Can
you keep driveling on about things you know nothing about? I wouldn't
bet against that.

I apologize for not knowing that you didn't know what it meant when
you wrote that obligation only means legal obligation. Are there

other statements that you made without understanding their meaning?

Next time when you find yourself once again talking about something
you clearly know nothing about, I highly recommend consulting a
dictionary.

That or keep your mouth closed. Better to keep your mouth shut and be
thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt

> China availability issue is one of the few issues where folks claim
> that/act like Google has an obligation

Let me get this straight:

Some users reported a problem and wanted to know if Google has any
plan to address the problem. For whatever reason that makes you very
angry,

Newsflash: this entire forum is full of threads reporting problems
with GAE and asking about Google's plan to fix those problems. Are you
going to post your "Google has no legal obligation to solve your
problem!" response to every single one of those threads?

> And the basis for this order is...

The same basis that compelled you to feel justified in ordering others
not to report problems and not to ask for Google's help in solving
their problems. So you tell me.

[Andy]

> So far, I've only seen two people complaining about the Chinese
> firewall and appengine, and a couple others voicing their opinion on
> it not being Google's obligation to support it. So really, when you
> count how many members this group has, I'd venture a guess that most
> just don't care either way. So maybe we're all wasting our time. If
> Google was going to respond, they'd have done it days ago.

Just like any other problems reported in this forum, if it doesn't
affect you, it doesn't affect you.

For those of us who are affected by this problem, we want to hear from
Google any potential solutions they may have. But if the problem
doesn't affect you, why are you even in this thread?

So yes, you're wasting your time.

As to why are you wasting your time in this thread as opposed to other
threads that also don't concern you...
that's a question only you can answer for yourself.

[Andy]

>what can Google do to stop the Chinese
> govt from blocking?

>one can argue that Google "needs" the Chinese govt to not block,
>but that doesn't imply that Google can do anything to stop the Chinese
>govt from blocking.

As I've told you, there are plenty of solutions.

One of them is to offer hosting at Google's data center in China. The
biggest objection you could muster up to that solution was a pointless
"Google may or may not offer that solution" piffle. Yes indeed. And
Google "may or may not offer" any solutions to any problems reported
in this forum. What's your point?

What solutions Google may or may not offer is certainly not for you to
say. The only strange thing in this entire thread is what caused you
to take so much offense to some users who are merely doing what
everyone else is doing in this forum: reporting problems and asking
for Google's help in solving such problems.

[Matt Williams]

You can check whether your website is accessible in china by using a
service such as:
http://www.websitepulse.com/help/testtools.china-test.html

Try both your domain name and the appspot subdomain to see whether it
is your domain or the appengine subdomain / IP address that is being
blocked.

Matt


On Apr 2, 3:48 pm, WallyDD <shaneb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My website (on google app engine) is blocked in China where I used to
> get a lot of traffic from. I only just realised this from looking at
> the logs and noting that traffic from china has crawled to standstill.
> I imagine my website is blocked in other countries as well thanks to
> this blocking technique.
>
> Does Google have a plan for dealing with this?
>
> Any chance of a response from someone at google? I would really like
> to know if this is being dealt with seriously?
>
> This doesn't just apply to my website, it applies to every site on
> google app engine.

[Andy Freeman]

> One of them is to offer hosting at Google's data center in China.

Since China can block sites hosted in China.... (I thought that it
was common knowledge that China imposed controls on in-China sites.)

There's nothing wrong with wanting guarantees, but Google isn't in a
position to give a guarantee wrt blocking that it can honor because
China can block no matter what Google does.

[Andy Freeman]

> Do you see the words "social" and "moral" in addition to "legal" in
> the definition for "obligation"? Do you even understand what those
> words mean?

Yes, I do. And I also understand how social and moral obligations
work. If you feel that Google is violating a social or moral
obligation, you don't have any recourse other than to shun Google and
to try to convince others to do likewise. You're not satisfied with
shun, so either you don't understand social or moral obligations or
you think that Google has some other type of obligation. Since the
only remaining one is legal....

> Some users reported a problem and wanted to know if Google has any
> plan to address the problem. For whatever reason that makes you very
> angry,

Huh? I'm not angry. I'm merely pointing out that Google's
capabilities in this area are limited, that they need to take their
complaints elsewhere if they want guarantees.

Do you really believe that Google can honor a promise that a given
site won't be blocked if the Chinese govt wants to block said site?
(Feel free to assume that the site is hosted in China.)

> The same basis that compelled you to feel justified in ordering others
> not to report problems and not to ask for Google's help in solving
> their problems.

Except that I didn't order anyone to do anything, which may explain
why you didn't quote any such order. I merely pointed out that Google
can't do as they ask and pointed them to someone who can.

Why does that bother you so much?

[Paddy Foran]

I'd just like to point out how funny it is that people keep banging on
for Google to respond, and in their banging on for Google to respond,
they missed Google's actual response.

>> Is there any google staff who is responsible for GAE promotion and
>> technology to say something here?
>
>> How can I access to my Google Apps via my own domain directly, e.g.
>> how can access via mail.my_domain.com instead of mail.google.com/a/
>> my_domain.com?
>
>One way to address this is to run a proxy server elsewhere, which will
>allow your site to have it's own unique IP, rather than the shared IPs
>of Google.
>
>-Brett
>App Engine Team

Please note the "App Engine Team" signature. That means Brett (at
least claims he) is from Google.

Poor Brett was ignored, as people clamoured for Brett to comment.

This is why I love the internet. It amuses me to no end.

[WallyDD]

The internet is indeed a funny place.
I did respond with a question on how to set this up but have received
no answer?

Any ideas anyone?

[Andy Freeman]

It's even funnier that you quoted someone who isn't "banging on Google
to respond".

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Joe Bowman]

Get a server and IP that is available in China, but outside of the
chinese firewall. Configure it to proxy you appspot.com domain. It
gets tricky handling cookies and session state and such doing this
though. Not a turnkey solution. Basically all requests to your
appengine application coming from users using the proxy, will be seen
as the proxy machine not the individual client machines. There are
some proxy passthroughs you can do depending on the software you
choose to handle this.

Of course you'll have to pay for the bandwidth usage going through the
proxy as well.

[Wooble]

On Apr 6, 3:03 am, Paddy Foran <foran.pa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'd just like to point out how funny it is that people keep banging on
> for Google to respond, and in their banging on for Google to respond,
> they missed Google's actual response.

That's because Brett gave a technical solution instead of telling us
what Google's going to do to bribe Chinese officials to stop the
blocking, censor everyone's apps so appspot won't get blocked, and/or
overthrow the Chinese government using their supersecret corporate
army.

[WallyDD]

Thanks for the answer Joe.

I have to agree it is not a turnkey solution and from the look of
things people are probably better off giving up on GAE and finding an
alternate host. The general feeling I find on the web is that Amazons
service is better suited for the international market.

[Andy]

On Apr 6, 10:16 am, Andy Freeman <ana...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > One of them is to offer hosting at Google's data center in China.
>
> Since China can block sites hosted in China....  (I thought that it
> was common knowledge that China imposed controls on in-China sites.)

So you really have no idea what you are talking about...

Yes genius, China can take down sites hosted in China, and that's the
whole point. By hosting sites in China, only sites that do not violate
government standards will be allowed to stay up, all other sites will
by law have to be taken down.

The direct outcome: sites that do not violate government standards
will be accessible to Chinese users. Contrast that with the current
situation, where China cannot order the take down of sites that
violate their government standards and as a result has to resort to
blanket blocking of all GAE sites.

I thought that was painfully obvious...

[Andy]

> Yes, I do.

I'm glad you finally learn the word "obligation". Too bad you didn't
learn it earlier when you spewed your nonsense that obligation can
only come from "laws and contracts".

Feel free to consult a dictionary first next time when you find
yourself once again tempted to use a big word you don't understand.

> I'm not angry.

Good for you. Definitely worth reporting back to your anger management
counselor

> I'm merely pointing out that Google's
> capabilities in this area are limited, that they need to take their
> complaints elsewhere if they want guarantees.

Who's talking about "guarantees"?

Some user reported a problem and wanted to know if Google had any plan
to solve it. That equates to wanting a "guarantee" in your world? Some
kind of twisted world you live in there.

In fact the only person who even brought up the word "guarantee" is
you.

Do you always argue against your own strawman like that?

> Do you really believe that Google can honor a promise that a given
> site won't be blocked if the Chinese govt wants to block said site?
> (Feel free to assume that the site is hosted in China.)

Who's talking about "promise that a given site won't be blocked" other
than you?

Once again you're the only person to use words like "guarantees" and
"promise"

You must be really busy arguing with your own strawman like that...

> I merely pointed out that Google can't do as they ask

And you're the spokesperson of Google? self-appointed?

This is what the OP asked: "Does Google have a plan for dealing with
this?"
No different than any other threads that are also about reporting
problems and asking for solutions.

For whatever reason such a simple question bothers you tremendously.
To such a degree that you felt compelled to spew nonsense such as
"Google can't do as they ask", when in fact you have
no standing to speak for Google on what they can or cannot do.

So the real question is why does the simple question "Does Google have
a plan for dealing with this?" bother you so much?

[WallyDD]

Just to add some irony to this.

Google is doing some developer days in Beijing and they are going to
talk about appengine.
And just to really demonstrate how aware Google is of this entire
issue they have advertised this on blogspot.com, which is also blocked
in China.
http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2009/04/google-developer-days-2009-first-three.html

To answer Andys question.
Does Google have a plan for dealing with this? I don't think so.

[Joe Bowman]

http://code.google.com/p/googleappengine/issues/detail?id=1072

On Apr 7, 11:39 am, WallyDD <shaneb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to add some irony to this.
>
> Google is doing some developer days in Beijing and they are going to
> talk about appengine.
> And just to really demonstrate how aware Google is of this entire
> issue they have advertised this on blogspot.com, which is also blocked

> in China.http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2009/04/google-developer-days...

[Wooble]

Interestingly, issue 1144, the same thing, was marked "Fixed" on March
16.

[Andy Freeman]

> > (I thought that it
> > was common knowledge that China imposed controls on in-China sites.)
>
> So you really have no idea what you are talking about...

Umm, unless you're claiming that China doesn't impose controls on in-
China sites, it's pretty clear that I do know what I'm talking about.

> The direct outcome: sites that do not violate government standards
> will be accessible to Chinese users.

Which means that if Google allows anything to be hosted in China that
the Chinese don't like, they'll block GAE-China (and maybe other
properties to teach Google a lesson or because the external IPs are
shared). Since the Chinese change their minds about what's
objectionable fairly often...

Yes, the Chinese may tell Google what applications are objectionable
today and let Google move them.

Yup - absolutely no hassle for Google. I too demand that they do so
immediately. And give everyone ponies.

Of course, Google can try to make it easier for China to block on an
application-specific basis (perhaps only for certain applications),
but they can do that for any datacenter.

[Andy Freeman]

> Some user reported a problem and wanted to know if Google had any plan
> to solve it. That equates to wanting a "guarantee" in your world? Some
> kind of twisted world you live in there.

When considering a plan to solve a problem, I think that it's
reasonable to consider whether said plan will actually solve the
problem. Why? Because if a plan doesn't solve the problem, the
problem still exists.

I am willing to assume that Google is doing what it can reasonably do
about this. The continued complaints suggest that the results of
those efforts are inadequate. And, we've seen "threats" regarding
what will happen if Google doesn't come through. Maybe those people
will be satisfied by something short of a guarantee, but ....

And, as has been noted, a Google representative posted a solution and
was ignored.

[Joe Bowman]

Not to mention the threats consist of actions that were suggested as
an alternative. That suggestion was reproached as unacceptable. So it
is quite confusing.

[WallyDD]

Google is deliberately blocking Cuba, Iran, Sudan and Syria. It is not
these countries doing the blocking. Google is doing the blocking.

The strangest thing is that google.com can be accessed most of the
time from these countries. Adwords/adsense can also be seen.
Is there ANY chance of ANY comment from Google on this?

I am shifting full blame to google on this one.

[Andy]

> Which means that if Google allows anything to be hosted in China that
> the Chinese don't like, they'll block GAE-China (and maybe other
> properties to teach Google a lesson or because the external IPs are
> shared).  

So you're speculating that Google China is going to break the laws of
the country it is situated in? And you base this wild speculation
on...?

Hey I got an idea, while you're at spewing out wild, baseless
speculations, why don't you also speculate that "if" Google "allows"
unlawful GAE sites (warez, pirated movies, child porn, online
casino...) to be hosted in their US data center and refuse to take
down those site, what is the US government going to do? Is it going to
do something "to teach Google a lesson"?

Today, Google operates google.cn and takes down from their search
index any sites deemed objectionable by the Chinese government. Yet
according to you Google would all of a sudden refuse to follow the
same procedure when it comes to GAE in China? What's next? Google
invading China and starting WWIII?

>Since the Chinese change their minds about what's
> objectionable fairly often...

"fairly often" according to whom? You?

Clearly you have a problem with the "Chinese" and think they "change

their minds about what's objectionable fairly often".

On the other hand, Google doesn't seem to share that problem. They set
up google.cn a long time ago and have no problem working with the
"Chinese" to keep out non-compliant material from their search index
there.

Google.cn is up and running just fine, hard to believe huh since the
"Chinese" are supposed to "change their minds about what's
objectionable fairly often"...

Lesson for you: don't project your own problems onto others

> Yes, the Chinese may tell Google what applications are objectionable
> today and let Google move them.

No "may" at all.

the "Chinese" are already telling Google what sites are objectionable
and Google remove them from the search index google.cn

How else did you think google.cn is supposed to operate?

Your ignorance about China and Google is getting more and more
laughable by the minute.

[Andy]

> When considering a plan to solve a problem, I think that it's
> reasonable to consider whether said plan will actually solve the
> problem. Why? Because if a plan doesn't solve the problem, the
> problem still exists.

Quite simply, whatever solution there may or may not be, it is not
your "plan" to "consider".

Do you work for Google? No?

Are you responsible for the operation of Google App Engine? No?

Then whatever Google decides to do or not to do regarding this
problem, it is none of your business.

Your posing as a self-appointed Google spokesperson proclaiming Google
"can't do this" and "If Google does that" serves no purpose other than
as yet another failed attempt at self-aggrandizement of yours.

Was that job rejection letter from Google to you that traumatic that
you still feel the need to pose as a Google spokesperson?

> And, as has been noted, a Google representative posted a solution and
> was ignored.

Indeed. I'd think that once a real Google employee surfaced that would
cut down your urge to act like a Google spokesperson.

But for whatever reason he was ignored and you keep indulging in your
Google spokesperson fantasy.

[Andy]

> Not to mention the threats consist of actions that were suggested as
> an alternative. That suggestion was reproached as unacceptable. So it
> is quite confusing.

The really funny thing is that the people who "reproached" the
suggestions as "unacceptable" are all non-Google employees yet acting
like some sort of representatives of Google.

I guess some people just never got over their job rejections from
Google.

Perhaps psychiatric help would be a better option than disrupting
Internet forum by openly acting out your Google employee fantasy.

[David Wilson]

2009/4/8 Andy <selfor...@gmail.com>:

>
> Perhaps psychiatric help would be a better option than disrupting
> Internet forum by openly acting out your Google employee fantasy.
>

Great idea, Andy! Now, how about giving all 6958 of our inboxes a
break from your ego, eh?

Thanks,


David.

>
> >
>



--
It is better to be wrong than to be vague.
— Freeman Dyson

[Andy]

>
> Great idea, Andy! Now, how about giving all 6958 of our inboxes a
> break from your ego, eh?
>

David, if only you would listen to your own advice then all 6958 of us
wouldn't have to be part of your latest ego trip. How about that eh?

[wenxin.ren]

agreed.
google should be more aware of the site blocking from any country.
because of the bad domain binding method google provided.

On 4月3日, 上午6时38分, Andy <selforgani...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why shouldn't this be google's problem?
>
> Google's hosting platform is being blocked by the country with the
> largest internet population in the world. You think that's not a major
> problem?
>
> I've used plenty of hosting sites that are perfectly accessible from
> China. So obviously this is a problem for Google.
>
> On Apr 2, 11:18 am, Barry Hunter <barrybhun...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > And why is this Google's problem?

[T.J. Crowder]

Hi Wally,

Sorry to hear about the block.

> The internet is indeed a funny place.
> I did respond with a question on how to set this up but have received
> no answer?
>
> Any ideas anyone?

Setting up a proxy server is a non-trivial task (I'm not saying it's
hard, just non-trivial) so you're not likely to get a lot of dedicated
help for it here. May be worth seeking out other newsgroups for the
technical details (if you haven't already!).

Most commercial-grade web software such as Apache[1] or nginx[2] can
be set up to proxy, and there are several dedicated proxy packages as
well (such as Squid[3]). I've been hearing very good things about
nginx the last year or so, but have virtually no direct experience
with it (and not that much experience setting up proxies at all, so
take all of this with a grain of salt).

[1] http://httpd.apache.org/
[2] http://nginx.net/
[3] http://www.squid-cache.org/

But since you'll need a hosting provider of some sort for the proxy,
and it sounds as though this is going to be your main reason for
having that other hosting service, it may be worth considering
approaching hosting providers who will set up and maintain the proxy
for you, rather than doing it yourself. I searched for "proxy
hosting" and there's a whole industry out there you can tap into. It
depends on whether this is something you want to add to your set of
skills. Naturally, you'll want to be sure that the proxy hosting
company itself isn't blocked in China! Given what they do, I suspect
a fair number of them are, but the censors can't keep on top of all of
them, and you can switch as necessary (the joys of proxying!).

A downside of the proxy approach is that you'll end up paying anywhere
from twice to six times as much for at least some of your site's
traffic -- the parts that can't be cached. Say you host the proxy at
Acme Hosting Company. Where before your traffic costs on a request
for dynamic content were:

* Inbound cost at AppEngine (receiving request from end user's
browser)
* Outbound cost at AppEngine (sending reply to end user's browser)

with a proxy you'll be paying:

* Inbound cost at Acme (receiving request from end user's browser)
* Outbound cost at Acme (sending request to AppEngine)
* Inbound cost at AppEngine (receiving request from proxy)
* Outbound cost at AppEngine (sending reply to proxy)
* Inbound cost at Acme (receiving reply from AppEngine)
* Outbound cost at Acme (sending reply to end user's browser)

So you'll need to shop around with that in mind. Again, that's only
the dynamic content; if the proxy can satisfy the request from cache,
it will, and so you wouldn't end up paying AppEngine transfer costs
(or CPU time costs) on that particular request at all.

Some suggestions related to that:

* Provide a transparent redirect mechanism or some such for users who
can go direct, so avoid putting unnecessary load and throughput on the
proxy.

* Be sure that your site's content is as cacheable as possible (but
this is always a good idea). The more cacheable your site, the faster
it seems to be, because there's a fair bit of caching that goes on out
in the cloud if you let it; caching doesn't only happen at the end
user's browser.

* Make sure all of the links in the chain are using compression (gzip,
etc.) whenever possible.

Wow, longer post than I intended. Anyway, FWIW, and good luck,
--
T.J. Crowder
tj / crowder software / com
Independent Software Engineer, consulting services available

[WallyDD]

Hi TJ,

That really is an amazing post. I'm impressed, you have certainly
covered all the technical bases of implementing a proxy.

My biggest concern is that Googles behaviour is unpredictable and I
not entirely sure how well they will respond to something like this
being implemented.

1. I have experienced being blocked by the app engine (try again in an
hour etc.), so I could reasonably assume that it would be likely that
a lot of traffic coming from one source may be blocked.
2. A large portion of the revenue comes from Google adsense/adwords.
Google uses a variety of mechanisms to check for invalid clicks, so
all the clicks coming from one source would no doubt raise some red
flags.
3. The traffic statistics would be almost useless (there is probably a
workaround... but a lot of work).
4. Google has deliberately and intentionally blocked traffic
originating from Sudan, Syria, Cuba, Iran and North Korea(not really
sure if they have internet there). From the legal discourse I have
read it would appear google is obligated to block any proxies where
traffic is coming from these countries. I don't really understand this
one as the USA changed their political administration in January 2009
and the block went in two weeks later. There has to be some politics
behind this which I am unaware of. Google has decided to say nothing
on this subject so I can only assume the worst.

Google has also said nothing about the China block, which again means
to expect the worst.
I am also far from convinced that Google has figured out China (like a
lot of western companies). From the look of their developer blog
http://www.developer.googlechinablog.com/, only 16 people read this as
the RSS feed.
I can't really expect any Chinese to have faith in Google with not
only that their country has blocked, but more importantly that google
itself has actively blocked other countries.

Google will do what Google wants to do and fail to communicate. I
can't see this strategy doing anything other than annoying the Chinese
further. And back to China I go next week (luckily on unrelated
business).

And TJ, I like your post, if I can get some (positive) answers I will
be putting in a proxy just as you have outlined. Keep up the great
work.

> ...
>
> read more »

[David Symonds]

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 10:08 AM, WallyDD <shan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 4. Google has deliberately and intentionally blocked traffic
> originating from Sudan, Syria, Cuba, Iran and North Korea(not really
> sure if they have internet there). From the legal discourse I have
> read it would appear google is obligated to block any proxies where
> traffic is coming from these countries. I don't really understand this
> one as the USA changed their political administration in January 2009
> and the block went in two weeks later. There has to be some politics
> behind this which I am unaware of. Google has decided to say nothing
> on this subject so I can only assume the worst.

http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/programs/sudan/sudan.shtml
http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/programs/syria/syria.shtml
http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/programs/cuba/cuba.shtml
http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/programs/iran/iran.shtml
http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/programs/nkorea/nkorea.shtml

Don't attribute to malice what can easily be explained by government control.

Dave.

[Hector Zhao]

As I know, *.appspot.com mostly works in China, only completely
blocked for a short period early this year, after that only some apps
-- most proxies which can be used to access other blocked sites -- are
still blocked. And for the custom domain, some Chinese developers will
find available ips of ghs.google.com and set up their own ghs.***.***,
which usually finally results in that ip blocked, too.

> lot of western companies). From the look of their developer bloghttp://www.developer.googlechinablog.com/, only 16 people read this as

> ...
>
> 阅读更多 >>

[T.J. Crowder]

Hi Wally,

Happy to help (if I did).

> ...you have certainly

> covered all the technical bases of implementing a proxy.

Oh, I very much doubt it. :-) (BTW, I don't know where that "six"
came from in my earlier post. You'll incur 2-3 times, not 2-6 times,
as much transfer on requests for dynamic content through the proxy.)

> 1. I have experienced being blocked by the app engine (try again in an
> hour etc.), so I could reasonably assume that it would be likely that
> a lot of traffic coming from one source may be blocked.

Perhaps Brett Slatkin or someone else from Google's technical wing
could comment on this.

I don't know about AppEngine, but Google does place rate limits on end
users' use of various apps they provide (such as Google Groups!), and
so this is something to be aware of. But I'd be surprised if those
rate-limits are naive enough to be confused by requests from a
properly-configured proxy. A request from a properly-configured proxy
includes the original source of the request as well as the proxy (or
proxies) through which it's passed.[1] Proxies are widely used across
the web, including by ISPs with hundreds of thousands of end users or
more. To lump them all together under one rate limit (or at least
under a rate limit intended for individuals) would be inappropriate.

[1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-14.45

This also applies to your points 2 and 3; the original request's
origin is preserved across the proxy (in the normal case; we're not
talking about intentionally non-compliant -- but useful! -- proxies
such as anonymizers and the like). In any case, the adsense stuff
won't go through your proxy, remember that the script comes directly
from googlesyndication.com.

> Google has also said nothing about the China block, which again means
> to expect the worst.

Wally, I'm quite certain that any time China blocks the whole of
AppEngine (which they don't appear to be doing currently, from other
comments), Google is aware of it very quickly and does everything they
reasonably can to clear up the problem working through channels with
the appropriate Chinese officials. They cannot afford to be closed to
China. Now, the degree to which they'll succeed largely depends on
the Chinese government. AppEngine is a bit of a problem for them,
it's just ridiculously easy to throw together an app that provides a
way for Chinese citizens to break through the great firewall and get
unfiltered information. I'm not surprised the whole of AppEngine was
blocked for a time last year, and I'm not surprised it got unblocked
-- presumably the result of discussion and negotiation between the
Chinese government, U.S. government, and Google. If Google haven't
commented on the situation, FWIW I wouldn't take that as evidence of
their not being concerned about and actively engaged in addressing the
problem. Public statements can sometimes cause trouble in sensitive
negotiations. But hey, not like I'm an expert on international
business and government relations. ;-)

And I didn't mean to get into the politics; mainly I was trying to
address your question about how to go about getting a proxy set up.

Good luck,

--
T.J. Crowder
tj / crowder software / com
Independent Software Engineer, consulting services available

> lot of western companies). From the look of their developer bloghttp://www.developer.googlechinablog.com/, only 16 people read this as

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[风笑雪]

You can try this CNAME to instead of ghs: google.dns.tancee.com

My website(http://gae.keakon.cn/) is ok by visiting from China.

2009/4/10 T.J. Crowder <t...@crowdersoftware.com>

[kiss242]

I suggest never do that, since google.dns.tancee.com is not your own
domain name, what if the owner/cracker directs it to another malicious
page?
You'd better find an google ghs ip, and then make an A record to it.

I think the best way is that Google provides unique static ips.
http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine/browse_thread/thread/78c7b96fd653f24b

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[风笑雪]

For this second, you can set an A record to 74.125.113.121.

But google.dns.tancee.com will keep available if this IP got banned.

So when Chinese can't visit your web site, you can ping google.dns.tancee.com to see if there is a new available IP, and change your A record again.

Hope this would be helpful.

2009/4/12 kiss242 <kis...@gmail.com>

[WallyDD]

I don't suppose there as any chance of any comment from anyone at
google on any of this?

On Apr 13, 1:18 pm, 风笑雪 <kea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> For this second, you can set an A record to 74.125.113.121.
> But google.dns.tancee.com will keep available if this IP got banned.
>
> So when Chinese can't visit your web site, you can ping
> google.dns.tancee.com to see if there is a new available IP, and change your
> A record again.
>
> Hope this would be helpful.
>

> 2009/4/12 kiss242 <kiss...@gmail.com>

>
>
>
>
>
> > I suggest never do that, since google.dns.tancee.com is not your own
> > domain name, what if the owner/cracker directs it to another malicious
> > page?
> > You'd better find an google ghs ip, and then make an A record to it.
>
> > I think the best way is that Google provides unique static ips.
>

> >http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine/browse_thread/thread/...

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